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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Ergel on March 13, 2017, 09:17:12 PM

Title: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Ergel on March 13, 2017, 09:17:12 PM
Anyone see the NY Post article about the Satmar couple?
While I don't doubt things like that are happening, I do doubt that the couple is real. Why would they talk to the Post?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: regular on March 13, 2017, 09:19:12 PM
Anyone see the NY Post article about the Satmar couple?
While I don't doubt things like that are happening, I do doubt that the couple is real. Why would they talk to the Post?
Link?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Ergel on March 13, 2017, 09:20:09 PM
Link?
It's really not so appropriate
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 13, 2017, 09:22:01 PM
It's really not so appropriate
My PM works.  :)
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: regular on March 13, 2017, 09:26:44 PM
It's really not so appropriate
See that now lol
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: avremie on March 13, 2017, 10:40:26 PM
I don't doubt that they're real, I doubt whether they have any common sense.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: efflpetzel on March 14, 2017, 01:36:09 AM
It's really not so appropriate
http://nypost.com/2017/03/12/this-hasidic-couples-kinky-open-marriage-could-get-them-shunned-forever/

The audience here isn't under 18. Feel free not to click on the link.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 09:00:17 AM
http://nypost.com/2017/03/12/this-hasidic-couples-kinky-open-marriage-could-get-them-shunned-forever/

The audience here isn't under 18. Feel free not to click on the link.
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: cholent on March 14, 2017, 09:12:12 AM
Their poor kids
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: yuneeq on March 14, 2017, 09:12:38 AM
Anyone see the NY Post article about the Satmar couple?
While I don't doubt things like that are happening, I do doubt that the couple is real. Why would they talk to the Post?

I think the couple is real but their story is a mix of reality and fantasy.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 09:13:01 AM
Their poor kids
+1
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 09:17:37 AM
I think the story is fantasy.
FTFY
The writer needed something for Purim. Which Chusid do you know that calls himself James or Chasidista that calls herself Monica. Puhleez...
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 09:19:56 AM
FTFY
The writer needed something for Purim. Which Chusid do you know that calls himself James or Chasidista that calls herself Monica. Puhleez...
The reporter may have changed names too.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: yuneeq on March 14, 2017, 09:21:57 AM
The reporter may have changed names too.

The reporter says he changed names and other details
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 09:26:34 AM
The reporter says he changed names and other details
If you say so. Without reading it I can probably tell you the whole article.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 09:27:51 AM
If she has hair, they are not Satmar... (Probably one of the things that were changed to hide their identity)
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: yuneeq on March 14, 2017, 09:28:07 AM
If you say so. Without reading it I can probably tell you the whole article.

I don't know if you can fantasize as well as they do
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 09:29:02 AM
If she has hair, they are not Satmar... (Probably one of the things that were changed to hide their identity)
Who would know?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Emkay on March 14, 2017, 09:29:12 AM


If she has hair, they are not Satmar...

Incorrect.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Emkay on March 14, 2017, 09:30:25 AM


I do doubt that the couple is real. Why would they talk to the Post?

We obviously aren't referring to a standard couple.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 09:31:08 AM
I don't know if you can fantasize as well as they do
It was really that creative? Not a regular they don't keep kosher blah blah only look hisidic blah blah hide cell phone blah blah have open marriage sometime apart sometimes together blah blah?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 09:31:32 AM
I think the couple is real but their story is a mix of reality and fantasy.
That's the whole point!
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: David Smith on March 14, 2017, 09:32:59 AM
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.
Do you really believe that's true?
FTFY
The writer needed something for Purim. Which Chusid do you know that calls himself James or Chasidista that calls herself Monica. Puhleez...
You've never met a Jew that uses a secular name when interacting with those not from his religious circles?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Boruch999 on March 14, 2017, 09:34:30 AM
The picture of her with her eyes blocked out should be very easy for someone who knows her to ID her from. 
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 09:35:44 AM
I think the couple is real but their story is a mix of reality and fantasy.

What are the chances that it's OTDers pulling a prank on the reporter?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 09:36:01 AM
Do you really believe that's true?You've never met a Jew that uses a secular name when interacting with those not from his religious circles?

I think he is talking from experience in the field but I have a feeling his numbers are exagerated. The question is which names they choose.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: beeweegee on March 14, 2017, 09:41:33 AM
While I don't know whether this particular news story is real, couples like the one depicted unfortunately do exist.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: coralsnake on March 14, 2017, 09:43:07 AM
How long until this gets split to its own thread?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: efflpetzel on March 14, 2017, 09:55:43 AM
Their poor kids
Exactly my thoughts
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 10:16:14 AM
If she has hair, they are not Satmar... (Probably one of the things that were changed to hide their identity)
Thats just naive. Many satmar who are not off have hair, even with shpitzlech. They hide it well.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 10:20:32 AM
I think he is talking from experience in the field but I have a feeling his numbers are exagerated. The question is which names they choose.
Probably a bit exaggerated but majority will never rralize or admit that its the desire to act out in whatever way that doesnt comport with Judaism that leads them astray.
And as far as the names are concerned...thats exactly it. It Joel, not James and Monica is entirely off the reservation.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 10:20:52 AM
While I don't know whether this particular news story is real, couples like the one depicted unfortunately do exist.
Ding ding ding we have a winner!
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 10:23:28 AM
Ding ding ding we have a winner!
The Post is a tabloid. Because its written doesnt mean any of it is true. But of course we have our own of everything. Swingers, gays, transgender.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 10:25:42 AM
The Post is a tabloid. Because its written doesnt mean any of it is true. But of course we have our own of everything. Swingers, gays, transgender.
I agree this story might not be true but I will bet the house it is happening.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: beeweegee on March 14, 2017, 10:30:02 AM
I agree this story might not be true but I will bet the house it is happening.
Absolutely.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 10:48:04 AM
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.
-1
I think we should differentiate between reason, trigger, facilitating factors, and reaction (or lack thereof), which are all part of the OTD issue.

IMHO there is only one reason across the board. It is לנורא עלילה על בני אדם - ניסיונות!

When discussing triggers, there are quite a few out there. I don't think what you mentioned as 90% is actually of any significant number. Common triggers mentioned are: abuse (physical, sexual or emotional/mental), lack of Sholom Bayis, cognitive dissonance observed.

While there's absolutely no action anyone take about the reason (other than daven), and often we are very limited in controlling the triggers, we definitely do have the ability and tools to deal with the facilitating factors, and more so with the proper responses. And if applied in a timely and correct manner, it could help in most cases.

Regarding the story in the post, I would be totally shocked if there's even a 1% grain of truth to it.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 10:51:17 AM
Regarding the story in the post, I would be totally shocked if there's even a 1% grain of truth to it.
WOW someone needs a reality check!
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 10:52:01 AM
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.

Are you talking about this couple or people in general?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: 12HRS on March 14, 2017, 11:01:50 AM


Regarding the story in the post, I would be totally shocked if there's even a 1% grain of truth to it.

Kiddushin 72a 4 lines from the bottom.

WOW someone needs a reality check!

Unfortunately I agree.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: beeweegee on March 14, 2017, 11:20:48 AM
WOW someone needs a reality check!
I think they are referring to the authenticity of the news story, not to the existence of such couples.

If not, then I definitely agree that
WOW someone needs a reality check!
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 11:27:15 AM
I think they are referring to the authenticity of the news story, not to the existence of such couples.

If not, then I definitely agree that
These couple exists in ALL walks of life.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: TimT on March 14, 2017, 11:29:44 AM
WOW someone needs a reality check!
Is this from personal experience with hasidic couples ? :)
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: beeweegee on March 14, 2017, 11:29:59 AM
These couple exists in ALL walks of life.
Of course. But some think that the (ultra) Orthodox Jewish community is immune, and that's simply false.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 11:32:37 AM
Is this from personal experience with hasidic couples ? :)
Not with Hasidic couples but IMHO that makes no difference. I use to ask with Catholics but not no more.  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Ergel on March 14, 2017, 11:33:58 AM
While I don't know whether this particular news story is real, couples like the one depicted unfortunately do exist.
Yup
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: TimT on March 14, 2017, 11:39:47 AM
Not with Hasidic couples but IMHO that makes no difference. I use to ask with Catholics but not no more.  ;)
Does it make for a more entertaining read when using Jewish or Hasidic characters ?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: mmgfarb on March 14, 2017, 11:41:59 AM
Does it make for a more entertaining read when using Jewish or Hasidic characters ?
Definitely, I don't think most of the world knows how many OTD Chasidim there are, everyone knows that there are plenty of Catholics who don't practice much.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 11:44:44 AM
Does it make for a more entertaining read when using Jewish or Hasidic characters ?
Yes and the same if it was Catholics. My point was when it involves any religion many feel it can't happen to us.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Emkay on March 14, 2017, 11:46:59 AM
WOW someone needs a reality check!
I don't think anyone is denying that these cases exist. Rather the debate is whether this particular story is a figment of someone's imagination.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 14, 2017, 11:48:53 AM
I don't think anyone is denying that these cases exist. Rather the debate is whether this particular story is a figment of someone's imagination.
Flip a coin.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 11:54:27 AM
Flip a coin.
I think what is making people question this is whether someone doing this who wishes to stay in the community, which it seems they do, would go along with such an article in the Post.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: henche on March 14, 2017, 11:55:48 AM
Maybe living vicariously by pretending it to NY Post reporter.

My favorite part is when they say they met people in a treif restaurant--in Williamsburg.  Way to try to hide.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 12:24:11 PM
Maybe they (subconsciously?) want to get "caught" so that they can stop pretending​.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 12:29:15 PM
https://adamarotti.wordpress.com/2017/03/13/a-hasidic-couples-kinky-open-marriage/
Very good analysis IMO
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 12:31:37 PM
Are you talking about this couple or people in general?
Im general
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Dan on March 14, 2017, 12:38:09 PM
Probably false or exaggerated, but I don't doubt that it exists within all communities.
Anyone who says it's impossible should make friends with Ahmadinejad
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483746/We-dont-gays-Iran-Iranian-president-tells-Ivy-League-audience.html
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 12:59:34 PM
Maybe they (subconsciously?) want to get "caught" so that they can stop pretending​.
Had the same thoughts, but what is preventing them from stopping to pretend?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Emkay on March 14, 2017, 01:11:43 PM

Very good analysis IMO
Please don't link sites of pornographic nature here.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: coralsnake on March 14, 2017, 01:22:52 PM
How long until this gets split to its own thread?
Whatd I tell ya?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 01:35:39 PM
Had the same thoughts, but what is preventing them from stopping to pretend?

It's easier to play the victim when you get "kicked out."

Also, what are they supposed to do, show up one day at her parents to introduce one of her boyfriends?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 01:38:38 PM
It's easier to play the victim when you get "kicked out."
My point exactly. They are trying to disregard the standards of the community but be the victim. Doesn't sound like they have the spine on their own.
Also, what are they supposed to do, show up one day at her parents to introduce one of her boyfriends?
Stop pretending to be frum?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 02:15:59 PM
Probably false or exaggerated, but I don't doubt that it exists within all communities.
Anyone who says it's impossible should make friends with Ahmadinejad
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-483746/We-dont-gays-Iran-Iranian-president-tells-Ivy-League-audience.html

I don't disagree that many of the issues exist within all communities, but the confluence of the details in the story just make it beyond (or beneath) believable.

And while my 1% statement might have been an exaggeration as to size of the grain of truth, I think it is less of a stretch than to claim that 90% of OTD is due to problems reconciling sexual activity with Judaism.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: koplonko on March 14, 2017, 02:28:06 PM
Stop pretending to be frum?
They don't want their children (who probably would not go along with them) to suffer
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 02:31:00 PM
They don't want their children (who probably would not go along with them) to suffer
And that will be better if they are caught and get kicked out because________________

I can't imagine their kids aren't suffering already.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: koplonko on March 14, 2017, 02:37:57 PM
And that will be better if they are caught and get kicked out because________________
Going with the logic of being "kicked out" = victim, at least they didn't willingly hurt their kids
I can't imagine their kids aren't suffering already.
In family life, yes. Not necessarily in school and social life
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 02:45:38 PM
Going with the logic of being "kicked out" = victim, at least they didn't willingly hurt their kids.
Exactly. So by doing things which will expose them and get them kicked out they can fool themselves into believing that they did not hurt their kids even though they did.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Amusch on March 14, 2017, 03:38:21 PM
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.

Number sounds a little high IME...
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 03:52:47 PM
Number sounds a little high IME...
I agree with that, though as I pointed above, it would not be the "reason" for going OTD, but rather the facilitator or the trigger.

I recall reading somewhere a couple of years ago, a post on a blog that had a leaflet published by some חבורה in Boro Park, where a story was told about a person that went OTD, and then came back through Lubavitch. When asked מעיקרא מאי קסבר, ולבסוף מאי קסבר, the answer was that the Yiddishkeit that he found, was one that he never left (or had). (If anyone is familiar with this, I'd appreciate a link).
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 04:01:45 PM
I agree with that, though as I pointed above, it would not be the "reason" for going OTD, but rather the facilitator or the trigger.

I recall reading somewhere a couple of years ago, a post on a blog that had a leaflet published by some חבורה in Boro Park, where a story was told about a person that went OTD, and then came back through Lubavitch. When asked מעיקרא מאי קסבר, ולבסוף מאי קסבר, the answer was that the Yiddishkeit that he found, was one that he never left (or had). (If anyone is familiar with this, I'd appreciate a link).

Al derech ze, the famous line "you're not a Kofer, you're an am ha'aretz"
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 04:39:29 PM
Al derech ze, the famous line "you're not a Kofer, you're an am ha'aretz"
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 05:21:41 PM
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

I don't think anything you said contradicts my point. It is extremely rare (at least in this generation) for someone to go OTD for intellectual reasons. Those that claim that they did, are almost always am ha'aretzim.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: avremie on March 14, 2017, 05:52:16 PM
The difference between reason and facilitating is hairsplitting.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: yitzf on March 14, 2017, 05:52:29 PM
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

Not a contradiction. Just becuase they are intillectual doen't mean they went OTD for such reasons. Rather כל הגדול מחברו יצרו גדול הימנו

Just look at all the high profile scandals.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 05:54:46 PM
I don't think anything you said contradicts my point. It is extremely rare (at least in this generation) for someone to go OTD for intellectual reasons. Those that claim that they did, are almost always am ha'aretzim.
My problem was with "al derech ze". Taken in context of the response to what I posted (and inquired if anyone has the source), it could be taken in a condescending way.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: AsherO on March 14, 2017, 06:50:31 PM
People with intellectual reasons don't go OTD, they become orthoprax. If they aren't לתיאבון nor להכעיס, then materiality doesn't interest them, and observance doesn't bother than all that much.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: henche on March 14, 2017, 07:00:57 PM
My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: sky121 on March 14, 2017, 07:02:51 PM
My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
There are plenty that 'transition' and make a new social circle, new community, new life. And plenty are still part of their families etc.

I'd say the transition is harder than .. being OTD.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 07:19:34 PM
People with intellectual reasons don't go OTD, they become orthoprax. If they aren't לתיאבון nor להכעיס, then materiality doesn't interest them, and observance doesn't bother than all that much.
My father in law tells the story of the epikores who was observed keeping all mitzvos. When asked about it, his response was ״וועמען וועל איך אפטאן, אויב איך וועל די אלע זאכן ניט טאן?״
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 14, 2017, 07:42:41 PM

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
Thats almost always the impetus for any change. In most cases one will not change unless the pain of not changing is greater than the change necessary to make the pain diminish.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: avremie on March 14, 2017, 09:45:30 PM
This is why there is an organization to make the transition easier. :'(
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 10:27:57 PM
This is why there is an organization to make the transition easier. :'(
The transition from the non-frum world to the frum world is probably not easy either, there's always a major cultural gap (at the very least).

We read many stories about BT's (I dislike the term, but will use it as we all know what it refers to) who are assisted up to a certain point, and then once they start their own family, or deal with difficulties after they are already fully observant, they are left to fend for their own.

That being said, from what I've seen/heard, there is a major difference between the frum world and the secular world, which is the community.

I've spoken to non-frum people, and they have nothing that comes close to the sense of community that exists in the frum world. Yes, they might have their circle of friends, but that doesn't come close to what a community is about. Our communities come together to help total strangers, just because they are part of the community, or part of another jewish community. This is non-existent outside of the frum world (or definitely not in the size and scope it exists within the frum world). Somewhat related to this is the concept of Gemach, which is unique to the frum communities.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: cmey on March 14, 2017, 10:43:16 PM
לא עבדו ישראל עבודה זרה אלא להתיר להם עריות
I think that if you think about it deeply, the belief system of society at large, i.e. moral relativism etc. is heavily influenced by a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism, it is inconvenient to acknowledge a reality that imposes absolute morals and limits. If one looks at the philosophy being espoused at the highest levels of the most prestigious universities it seems to be influenced by the above rather than by deep soul searching and true introspection. The belief system them filters down to the masses and is accepted as gospel. This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 14, 2017, 10:45:33 PM
The transition from the non-frum world to the frum world is probably not easy either, there's always a major cultural gap (at the very least).

We read many stories about BT's (I dislike the term, but will use it as we all know what it refers to) who are assisted up to a certain point, and then once they start their own family, or deal with difficulties after they are already fully observant, they are left to fend for their own.

That being said, from what I've seen/heard, there is a major difference between the frum world and the secular world, which is the community.

I've spoken to non-frum people, and they have nothing that comes close to the sense of community that exists in the frum world. Yes, they might have their circle of friends, but that doesn't come close to what a community is about. Our communities come together to help total strangers, just because they are part of the community, or part of another jewish community. This is non-existent outside of the frum world (or definitely not in the size and scope it exists within the frum world). Somewhat related to this is the concept of Gemach, which is unique to the frum communities.
+1000000....
To see it you only need to go to Columbia Hospital or one of many others.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: cmey on March 14, 2017, 10:57:03 PM
----
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on March 14, 2017, 11:02:11 PM
This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....

Thank you for saying this better than I ever could have.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 14, 2017, 11:07:58 PM
My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.
Bingo. INMHO that is the only reason
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 11:38:21 PM
לא עבדו ישראל עבודה זרה אלא להתיר להם עריות
I think that if you think about it deeply, the belief system of society at large, i.e. moral relativism etc. is heavily influenced by a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism, it is inconvenient to acknowledge a reality that imposes absolute morals and limits. If one looks at the philosophy being espoused at the highest levels of the most prestigious universities it seems to be influenced by the above rather than by deep soul searching and true introspection. The belief system them filters down to the masses and is accepted as gospel. This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....
While your comment could use some breaking up into paragraphs for readability, it touches on a very true subject.

Whether this "poor couple" is real or not, I think there are plenty of people all around us (and possibly, to a certain extent, each and every one of us - or else we would all be בינונים ע"פ התניא) that don't properly "internalize who we are and what we believe in".

Your comment about educating our children "not just ... to imitate those around them" resonates with me very strongly. The Rebbe quotes  (http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/admur/hymym/9/24)in Hayom Yom the saying of the Tzemach Tzedek that one shouldn't ask for a ברכה regarding עבודה. I once heard this elucidated in a shiur by Rabbi Yossi Paltiel (don't remember which one, but I think it was a Tanya shiur, his treasure trove is here (http://www.insidechassidus.org/)) where he said that a Chossid came asking for such a ברכה, to which the response was (expounded from the terse text): My grandfather (the Alter Rebbe) was מוסר נפש so that each Jew should keep Yiddishkeit in his own right, and not because his parents did, and now you are asking me for the opposite?

To me, that is part of what being a Lubavitcher (which I strive to be) is about. I don't want my kids to be frum Yidden because their parents were such, I want them to be frum Yidden by pure choice (and that choice should be מאהבה and not מיראה).
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 14, 2017, 11:43:13 PM
+1000000....
To see it you only need to go to Columbia Hospital or one of many others.
We can also witness it in happier occasions, such as Siyum Hashas, Yeshiva Dinners, or other communal events. IINM even events such as weddings, have much greater personal participation per $ than outside of our communities.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: grodnoking on March 14, 2017, 11:43:35 PM

That being said, from what I've seen/heard, there is a major difference between the frum world and the secular world, which is the community.

I've spoken to non-frum people, and they have nothing that comes close to the sense of community that exists in the frum world. Yes, they might have their circle of friends, but that doesn't come close to what a community is about. Our communities come together to help total strangers, just because they are part of the community, or part of another jewish community. This is non-existent outside of the frum world (or definitely not in the size and scope it exists within the frum world). Somewhat related to this is the concept of Gemach, which is unique to the frum communities.

+1000000....
To see it you only need to go to Columbia Hospital or one of many others.

+1,000,000,000,000.
Not just bieker cholim, everything you ever do, you can always count on getting help. From Hatzolah, tomchai Shabbos, gemachs, to getting a job. Chabad everywhere always ready to help. I've stayed in people's houses I only knew in passing. Getting stuff from across the globe (remember that crayon? ). Hitches.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: cmey on March 15, 2017, 12:18:37 AM
Thank you for saying this better than I ever could have.

I'm not advocating any one system. I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained. I'm not opining that everyone belongs at the trade shows in Las Vegas, but if the reality is that your child may end up there, make sure that they will be as comfortable with who they are as when they are walking on Lee Avenue....

I once heard a prominent gadol actually quote Shakespeare "this above all to thine ownself be true". If you are in contact with your true self- not the self that is the product of your surroundings- you will have the strength and conviction to deal with any circumstance you may find yourself in.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 12:38:16 AM
.. a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism....
Are you implying that those aren't common in the frum communities? במחילת כבוד אכסניה, isn't DDMS and DDF rooted to a certain extent in those phenomena?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 12:41:46 AM
I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained.
What is the basis for your assertion?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: joe1234 on March 15, 2017, 12:58:26 AM
This story is overly exaggerated! Obviously these kinds of things happen.. But not on a full scale long term double life standard... #FAKENEWS
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Ergel on March 15, 2017, 01:23:57 AM
This story is overly exaggerated! Obviously these kinds of things happen.. But not on a full scale long term double life standard... #FAKENEWS
Incorrect. Again, I don't think this could is real. But these kinds of things are happening, RL
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: beeweegee on March 15, 2017, 01:40:15 AM
Incorrect. Again, I don't think this could is real. But these kinds of things are happening, RL
+1
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: cmey on March 15, 2017, 01:46:26 AM
What is the basis for your assertion?
Anecdotal. The point is that even if the upbringing of that time period worked that is not going to suffice for our children today. If you want to disagree about the success of the pre haskalah shtetl system I do not have the historical expertise to debate the point.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: cmey on March 15, 2017, 01:57:49 AM
Are you implying that those aren't common in the frum communities? במחילת כבוד אכסניה, isn't DDMS and DDF rooted to a certain extent in those phenomena?

You are bringing up a good point but I think that there are varying levels of spirituality. Obviously total and sincere asceticism- if one is truly on the level- can bring one to great spiritual heights. However we are only human and to the degree that our pursuit of pleasure, consumerism etc. is not a complete contradiction to our pursuit of spirituality we can accept who we are while striving to become better. Which one of us on DDMS or DDF would not want to be on the level where we would have no greater pleasure than learning a Gemara or where we would thoroughly enjoy davening with kavana from beginning to end with no need for non spiritual fulfillment in our lives. We have to make peace with whom we are while aspiring to grow to whom we want to be.

I am referring to being consumed by the above to the point where there is such a contradiction that one is confronted with the choice of either accepting limits and constraints to his lifestyle or spurning any relationship with spirituality/morality in his life. When our society at large is confronted with this choice, with few exceptions,  the path taken is the latter. They'll sometimes give lip service to morality and being a good person etc. but that stops where there is a clash with their lifestyle... unfortunately we all know people in our community who have made the same problematic choice despite professing to put morality above all and that is symptomatic matic of the problem of not internalizing our beliefs that was referenced in the previous post....
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ckmk47 on March 15, 2017, 02:37:47 AM

I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained.
I heard recently from someone reliable about the pre-war shtetel. (Post-haskala obviously) He said that in Poland, people were so poor that you only had to promise people food and they would follow you.  To zionist meetings, to public school, to haskala talks.  And from there, away from Torah.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 08:22:48 AM
We can also witness it in happier occasions, such as Siyum Hashas, Yeshiva Dinners, or other communal events. IINM even events such as weddings, have much greater personal participation per $ than outside of our communities.
+1,000,000,000,000.
Not just bieker cholim, everything you ever do, you can always count on getting help. From Hatzolah, tomchai Shabbos, gemachs, to getting a job. Chabad everywhere always ready to help. I've stayed in people's houses I only knew in passing. Getting stuff from across the globe (remember that crayon? ). Hitches.

Agree. That was just an example where you can find it 24/7 and I am not just referring to the organizations.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 08:29:18 AM
I'm not advocating any one system. I think that in many cases the shtetl before the period of the haskalah worked beautifully, yet it is clear that somehow the belief system then was by and large not merely superficial; it was deeply ingrained. I'm not opining that everyone belongs at the trade shows in Las Vegas, but if the reality is that your child may end up there, make sure that they will be as comfortable with who they are as when they are walking on Lee Avenue....

I once heard a prominent gadol actually quote Shakespeare "this above all to thine ownself be true". If you are in contact with your true self- not the self that is the product of your surroundings- you will have the strength and conviction to deal with any circumstance you may find yourself in.
All it took from that system was exposure to the outside world and frumkeit was decimated in way never seen before and since. Between haskala, zionism, communism, America, etc. now frum yidden a very small percentage of yiddishkeit mostly within 100-150 years. Arguably it took the Holocaust to save frum yiddishkeit by separating the susceptible ones out.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: yzj on March 15, 2017, 09:08:43 AM
לא עבדו ישראל עבודה זרה אלא להתיר להם עריות
I think that if you think about it deeply, the belief system of society at large, i.e. moral relativism etc. is heavily influenced by a lifestyle that is incompatible with religious belief and observance and absolute morality , whether it is sexuality, hedonism, rampant consumerism, it is inconvenient to acknowledge a reality that imposes absolute morals and limits. If one looks at the philosophy being espoused at the highest levels of the most prestigious universities it seems to be influenced by the above rather than by deep soul searching and true introspection. The belief system them filters down to the masses and is accepted as gospel. This poor couple obviously lacked a true internalized belief and value system so they stood no chance when exposed to the morass of modern society. I think that is the lesson here- if your belief system is just a product of the people around you and is never internalized then it will evaporate as soon as the people around you change. We have got to internalize and educate our children to internalize who we are and what we believe in, not just expect our children to imitate those around them,otherwise it is not a true belief system at all; merely a transient product of a (temporary) set of circumstances....

That's why it's so in in our society to have pets but not to have kids. A pet makes you feel altruistic without really imposing on your lifestyle. Kids clash with the prevailing lifestyle....
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Ergel on March 15, 2017, 09:16:52 AM
Shocking how a thread which should be about introspection and improving our communities turned into a thread bashing secular culture
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 09:19:35 AM
Shocking how a thread which should be about introspection and improving our communities turned into a thread bashing secular culture
I think that most here do not view these as the same situation as OTD and at-risk teens but rather as people who could not control their taavos which has happened from time immemorial.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: TimT on March 15, 2017, 09:24:20 AM
Shocking how a thread which should be about introspection and improving our communities turned into a thread bashing secular culture
This topic isn't about "improving our communities". Unless you mean being more accepting of the practice.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Dan on March 15, 2017, 09:38:11 AM
I think that most here do not view these as the same situation as OTD and at-risk teens but rather as people who could not control their taavos which has happened from time immemorial.

Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 09:40:59 AM
I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.

Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...
Now we came full circle. What I meant was as opposed to the hurt some above described.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: yzj on March 15, 2017, 09:47:06 AM
Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.

Have to disagree with you there, unless you are referring to the proximate cause. There are many abuse situations, learning disability, kids not cut out for the specific school etc. they are squeezed into, mental health issues, just to name a few root causes. Taavos may be the eventual trigger, but someone brought up in a healthy environment who feels happy, fulfilled, and comfortable with himself in all other ways in unlikely to go OTD because he also has unfulfilled taavos IMHO. I'm sure there are instances of normal people succumbing to their taavos but that's not representative of most OTD.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Dan on March 15, 2017, 09:50:00 AM
In other words some people are on shakier ground and when the opportunity arises...

There's definitely what we can work on as a community to avoid some of the shaky ground situations.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 01:22:14 PM
Have to disagree with you there, unless you are referring to the proximate cause. There are many abuse situations, learning disability, kids not cut out for the specific school etc. they are squeezed into, mental health issues, just to name a few root causes. Taavos may be the eventual trigger, but someone brought up in a healthy environment who feels happy, fulfilled, and comfortable with himself in all other ways in unlikely to go OTD because he also has unfulfilled taavos IMHO. I'm sure there are instances of normal people succumbing to their taavos but that's not representative of most OTD.

Which goes back to what I said
I think we should differentiate between reason, trigger, facilitating factors, and reaction (or lack thereof), which are all part of the OTD issue.

IMHO there is only one reason across the board. It is לנורא עלילה על בני אדם - ניסיונות!

When discussing triggers, there are quite a few out there. I don't think what you mentioned as 90% is actually of any significant number. Common triggers mentioned are: abuse (physical, sexual or emotional/mental), lack of Sholom Bayis, cognitive dissonance observed.

And regarding
There's definitely what we can work on as a community to avoid some of the shaky ground situations.

I said:
... often we are very limited in controlling the triggers, we definitely do have the ability and tools to deal with the facilitating factors, and more so with the proper responses. And if applied in a timely and correct manner, it could help in most cases.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: mgarfin on March 15, 2017, 01:46:43 PM
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

Im not sure what the situation is in Chabad but in the general frum community, the main cause, is a lack of connection to Judaism/God.
Teenagers, I see coming out of chader, see yidishkayt as a set of rules, nothing deeper, and when that is your yidishkayt you fall for תאוות very easily.
Most don't go OTD, but bring up families that have no connection to God. This way of Judaism isn't sustainable.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: joe1234 on March 15, 2017, 01:57:14 PM
Incorrect. Again, I don't think this could is real. But these kinds of things are happening, RL
These kinds of things... are definitely happening, but again not on a full-long term scale. I just don't see such a story lasting for such a long time because; a. You can't hide forever, b. After a while you don't want to live a double life, c. Impossible that a couple stays married like this for long....
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: joe1234 on March 15, 2017, 02:01:54 PM
R' Elchonon washerman explains that really there is no logical reason not to believe in g-d... the only reason people don't believe and go OTD is because of taavas oilam hazeh, much like a judge who accepts bribery can't judge reasonably. He then explains that the mitzvah to believe in g-d is not just to believe( because it doesn't make sense to command a non-believer to believe) but rather to control his taavas and therefore automatically believe.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 02:02:43 PM
Im not sure what the situation is in Chabad but in the general frum community, the main cause, is a lack of connection to Judaism/God.
Teenagers, I see coming out of chader, see yidishkayt as a set of rules, nothing deeper, and when that is your yidishkayt you fall for תאוות very easily.
Most don't go OTD, but bring up families that have no connection to God. This way of Judaism isn't sustainable.
Unfortunately, that exists everywhere.

Maybe Chabad/Lubavitch as a philosophy, and ideally if we would all educate accordingly, would have less of that problem. But unfortunately, so many of us do things "just because", and education (in schools and within families) isn't always up to where it should be. תורת החסידות was revealed in order to show how every Yid is connected and can connect with השי"ת. In our generation, it needs to be adapted and introduced at much earlier ages IMHO.

One of my favorites regarding being properly connected is http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3140489/jewish/-.htm
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: gozalim on March 15, 2017, 02:17:59 PM
Unfortunately, that exists everywhere.

Maybe Chabad/Lubavitch as a philosophy, and ideally if we would all educate accordingly, would have less of that problem. But unfortunately, so many of us do things "just because", and education (in schools and within families) isn't always up to where it should be. תורת החסידות was revealed in order to show how every Yid is connected and can connect with השי"ת. In our generation, it needs to be adapted and introduced at much earlier ages IMHO.

One of my favorites regarding being properly connected is http://www.chabad.org/therebbe/article_cdo/aid/3140489/jewish/-.htm

I don't believe the philosophical disconnect within Chabad is anywhere as close to what it is in some other places, if for no other reason than that our curricula includes more of these topics than some others do. (not that chabad youth don't have challenges of their own...)

CMIIW but I was under the impression that Satmar chinuch for example, בשיטה avoids getting into hashkafah questions?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 02:41:28 PM
I don't believe the philosophical disconnect within Chabad is anywhere as close to what it is in some other places, if for no other reason than that our curricula includes more of these topics than some others do. (not that chabad youth don't have challenges of their own...)

CMIIW but I was under the impression that Satmar chinuch for example, בשיטה avoids getting into hashkafah questions?
Have you ever heard the expression "getting through the system"? If you have (I've heard it more than once), for anyone that has that attitude, a curriculum is meaningless. I can also tell you, that a curriculum without proper משפיעים, could be extremely meaningless.

IDK about Satmar, but I once had a Belzer bochur sitting next to me on a flight back from TLV, and what you describe seems to be their attitude.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: gozalim on March 15, 2017, 03:04:07 PM
Have you ever heard the expression "getting through the system"? If you have (I've heard it more than once), for anyone that has that attitude, a curriculum is meaningless. I can also tell you, that a curriculum without proper משפיעים, could be extremely meaningless.

IDK about Satmar, but I once had a Belzer bochur sitting next to me on a flight back from TLV, and what you describe seems to be their attitude.
I believe that even just "getting through the system", one still possesses certain understandings on g-d, judaism, purpose, etc. though the "getting through the system" phrase is indicative of a deep lack of internalization of said beliefs. at the same time, at least on the intellectual front, many chabad kids would require more than the lightweight reading quoted in the article to knock them over. or just skip the "religious skeptic" part and go OTD without it...
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: chevron on March 15, 2017, 03:48:48 PM
Im not sure what the situation is in Chabad but in the general frum community, the main cause, is a lack of connection to Judaism/God.
Teenagers, I see coming out of chader, see yidishkayt as a set of rules, nothing deeper, and when that is your yidishkayt you fall for תאוות very easily.
Most don't go OTD, but bring up families that have no connection to God. This way of Judaism isn't sustainable.

THIS +1000000000

Judaism is a mix of theology, philosophy, passion, faith. Once the talmud was closed, dialogue ceased. When codification became the norm, judaism was basically about a lot of laws and how to follow them.

Mesorah is often taught very close minded, if the halacha isnt like a certain opinion, we dont focus on the other opinions.

The people talking in shull is yet another case in point, people dont pray because God wants us to, because man needs it, because we pray to request things, connect to God etc. Most pray by rote and routne
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: chevron on March 15, 2017, 03:57:37 PM
Regarding things in europe pre haskallah, people sinned but there was not many options as a jew in the shtetel
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 03:59:32 PM
Judaism is a mix of theology, philosophy, passion, faith. Once the talmud was closed, dialogue ceased. When codification became the norm, judaism was basically about a lot of laws and how to follow them.
Where did you get that idea from?

The people talking in shull is yet another case in point, people dont pray because God wants us to, because man needs it, because we pray to request things, connect to God etc. Most pray by rote and routne

I have stated more than once that talking in shul is one of the biggest problems (though it is actually somewhat of a revealing symptom of an underlying problem) we have in our community (at least where I go to shul).

If a kid goes to shul, where the aibershter comes 3 times a day, putting everything else aside (figuratively speaking), just to listen to yidden, how do we look if we turn around to talk to someone while מלך מלכי המלכים is right in front of us waiting to hear our davening?

To take it to the extreme, I once asked someone how he could expect his kid to keep shabbos, if his kid sees the father talk in Shul. We wouldn't do anything of the sort in front of a שר, a judge, or even a simple clerk listening to us, let alone a מלך בשר ודם, so how dare we do it to the most real מלך?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 15, 2017, 04:01:40 PM
Regarding things in europe pre haskallah, people sinned but there was not many options as a jew in the shtetel
Not the way I would phrase things, but absolutely terse and correct!

Throughout ALL generations, "frum" (term used for convenience) yidden were always in the minority - וחמושים עלו בני ישראל מארץ מצרים was the starting point of that.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 15, 2017, 04:12:26 PM
Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.
Repost?
Let's get the snow day popcorn started...my take...
90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Dan on March 15, 2017, 04:15:08 PM
I wouldn't say that 90% of Taivos are of a sexual nature.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 15, 2017, 04:17:06 PM
Not the way I would phrase things, but absolutely terse and correct!

Throughout ALL generations, "frum" (term used for convenience) yidden were always in the minority - וחמושים עלו בני ישראל מארץ מצרים was the starting point of that.
7000 "frum" jews in the days of Eliyahu.
But aftwr the churban bais sheini besides pockets of Saducees there werent that many "OTD"
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 15, 2017, 04:18:57 PM
I wouldn't say that 90% of Taivos are of a sexual nature.
What other taivah leads one astray besides that? Food? Greed?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 04:22:41 PM
What other taivah leads one astray besides that? Food? Greed?
money
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 15, 2017, 04:30:34 PM
money
Thats covered in greed. And that doesn't cause people to go OTD. How many instances of chillul shabbos do you know that are done jist to have money...by people who grew up frum and made a conscious decision to leave frum life because of the money. A handful at most.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 04:48:05 PM
Thats covered in greed. And that doesn't cause people to go OTD. How many instances of chillul shabbos do you know that are done jist to have money...by people who grew up frum and made a conscious decision to leave frum life because of the money. A handful at most.
That depends on the time periods you are looking at.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 15, 2017, 05:25:33 PM
That depends on the time periods you are looking at.
Present day orthodoxy. What other time period did you take my statement and Dan's statement to be talking about?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 05:39:36 PM
Present day orthodoxy. What other time period did you take my statement and Dan's statement to be talking about?
You don't need to go back that far to find a time period when 100s and probably 1000s of times more people were leaving yiddishkeit than now in order to be "successful". It is just that this nisayon is not as great now since it is much easier to be successful while being shomer shabbos. The difference is simply which one is the greater nisayon here and now and not which nisayon is more likely to do it.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 15, 2017, 05:43:26 PM
You don't need to go back that far to find a time period when 100s and probably 1000s of times more people were leaving yiddishkeit than now in order to be "successful". It is just that this nisayon is not as great now since it is much easier to be successful while being shomer shabbos. The difference is simply which one is the greater nisayon here and now and not which nisayon is more likely to do it.
The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 05:46:40 PM
The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.
That explains the ones in the 30s and 40s not the ones whose parent were moser nefesh to be shomer shabbos and their children went to college and left yiddiskeit at home to succeed as a professional in the 60s and 70s.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: yuneeq on March 15, 2017, 06:08:40 PM
The nisayon of success was a nisayon of survival at first. The children of those people while they may claim to have grown up frum they really did not. So the taivah of money wasnt a real taivah it was am haratzus that lead them astray. I stand by my position.

The good ol' "No true Scotsman" fallacy
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 06:25:04 PM
Ain adam choteh ela im kein nichnas bo ruach shtus...

I'd venture to say that most OTD cases happen because of unfulfilled Taivos.
Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: mgarfin on March 15, 2017, 06:35:14 PM
Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

But why is there pain for staying, when there is only rules its very painful but Judaism is rules plus plus.

Our problem isn't only with OTD, ppl not staying. What's with the half OTD, the ones that have nothing in them but don't leave the community for community.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Denverite on March 15, 2017, 06:37:48 PM
All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Dan on March 15, 2017, 06:39:15 PM
All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...
ROFL
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 06:41:15 PM
Couldn't disagree more. My personnel experience and those of others who have spent a lot more time with a lot more otd kids is that it's exactly what @henche said- the pain of staying seems to them to be greater then the pain of leaving.
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection

I am sure that it is a large portion. It is unlikely to have one defined cause. Just because someone had a difficult and hurtful otr abusive family experience (for example) doesn not have to mean leaving the community entirely.  It is a confluence of causes including the hurt as well as the fleeting happiness that they feel from filling their taivos. We can go around in circles to find what percentage is what. Keep in mind though, that over the years there have been many more than those who are leaving yiddishkeit today and left behind their family and community who did not have this pain as a contributing factor at all. They left simply to fulfill their taivos. So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years. Anyone who doesn't see that is looking from a very narrow perspective without seeing history at all. Many times more people left in my parent's generation than those who are leaving today and almost all left simply or taiva.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 06:41:48 PM
All I have to say is that article is a great example of the success of frum dating...that Shadchan seriously did a great job putting those two together...
Dating? In Satmer?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 06:55:48 PM


But why is there pain for staying, when there is only rules its very painful but Judaism is rules plus plus.

Our problem isn't only with OTD, ppl not staying. What's with the half OTD, the ones that have nothing in them but don't leave the community for community.
As horrible as a sustem of rules can be i don't believe it's painful enough to cause people to leave it may lead to what you describe in your second paragraph which I'm not talking about

Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 06:58:45 PM


I am sure that it is a large portion. It is unlikely to have one defined cause. Just because someone had a difficult and hurtful otr abusive family experience (for example) doesn not have to mean leaving the community entirely.  It is a confluence of causes including the hurt as well as the fleeting happiness that they feel from filling their taivos. We can go around in circles to find what percentage is what. Keep in mind though, that over the years there have been many more than those who are leaving yiddishkeit today and left behind their family and community who did not have this pain as a contributing factor at all. They left simply to fulfill their taivos. So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years. Anyone who doesn't see that is looking from a very narrow perspective without seeing history at all. Many times more people left in my parent's generation than those who are leaving today and almost all left simply or taiva.
1) I didn't say there was one cause I just said there's a common denominator in virtually all of them and that is tremendous pain not taivah. Obviously there are exceptions but the very large majority leave because of pain.
2) I am only talking about the current generation obviously throughout history there were many different reasons need left yiddishkeit but those reasons are very often very different than today
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 07:00:35 PM


So the statement that "people don't leave for taiva" has been proven wrong thousands of times within the last fifty years.

Did you mean to write a different number than fifty? Where has this been proven thousands of times in the last fifty years?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Denverite on March 15, 2017, 07:10:52 PM
Dating? In Satmer?

Dude, relax it was a joke, although in all seriousness if that story is true as written, there most certainly was a reason they were matched together.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 07:21:04 PM
Dude, relax it was a joke, although in all seriousness if that story is true as written, there most certainly was a reason they were matched together.

Dude, relax it was a joke
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 07:22:31 PM

Did you mean to write a different number than fifty? Where has this been proven thousands of times in the last fifty years?
No I meant fifty as in the 60s 70s and 80s maybe sixty years to include the entire 60s.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 07:25:33 PM
1) I didn't say there was one cause I just said there's a common denominator in virtually all of them and that is tremendous pain not taivah. Obviously there are exceptions but the very large majority leave because of pain.
2) I am only talking about the current generation obviously throughout history there were many different reasons need left yiddishkeit but those reasons are very often very different than today

That could be, but the statement that
People don't leave their culture family lifestyle etc... for taiiva. Slip up once a while maybe but not wholesale leaving and rejection
is simply not true. Once you get past that untrue premise you need to recalculate.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 07:32:02 PM
No I meant fifty as in the 60s 70s and 80s maybe sixty years to include the entire 60s.
Can't speak for then but I'm skeptical...
That could be, but the statement thatis simply not true. Once you get past that untrue premise you need to recalculate.
I'm not sure what you mean I stand by that statement for this generation
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 07:36:27 PM
Can't speak for then but I'm skeptical...I'm not sure what you mean I stand by that statement for this generation
This is simply cognitive dissonance. YOu are skeptical that people left yiddishkeit in the 60s without the pain you describe? Maybe a broader view of history and life will help you in your contacts with these kids.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 07:42:05 PM


This is simply cognitive dissonance. YOu are skeptical that people left yiddishkeit in the 60s without the pain you describe? Maybe a broader view of history and life will help you in your contacts with these kids.

Because I potentially disagree with you means I have a narrower view of life and history than you?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 07:44:51 PM

Because I potentially disagree with you means I have a narrower view of life and history than you?
If that is what you think happened with 100s maybe thousands of times the amount of people leaving yiddishkeit in college without the rebeliousness found in many current OTD kids then yes.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: yitzf on March 15, 2017, 08:52:47 PM
If that is what you think happened with 100s maybe thousands of times the amount of people leaving yiddishkeit in college without the rebeliousness found in many current OTD kids then yes.

We dont need to go back to the 50's

r"l
https://www.ou.org/life/parenting/why-are-our-teens-going-off-derech-steven-pruzansky/ (https://www.ou.org/life/parenting/why-are-our-teens-going-off-derech-steven-pruzansky/)
Quote
A new unpublished study recently brought to my attention has challenging implications for the Torah world – to wit, that a substantial number of graduates of Modern Orthodox high schools are no longer Shabbat- or kashrut– observant within two years of their graduation.

Another study from last year reported the not-quite-shocking news that 25% of those graduates who attend secular colleges assimilate during college and completely abandon Torah and mitzvot.

Although IMO they aren't going off for intellectual reasons, its not only tayvos either. A lot of it has to do with letzonus, the constant mockery of anything holy or special and the permissible - anything goes - attitudes that breaks down the defenses.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: gozalim on March 15, 2017, 08:58:59 PM
So is it confirmed that college education was/is the single biggest threat to frumkeit? or was the lubavitcher rebbe being too fanatic about that?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 08:59:15 PM
We dont need to go back to the 50's

r"l
https://www.ou.org/life/parenting/why-are-our-teens-going-off-derech-steven-pruzansky/ (https://www.ou.org/life/parenting/why-are-our-teens-going-off-derech-steven-pruzansky/)
Although IMO they aren't going off for intellectual reasons, its not only tayvos either. A lot of it has to do with letzonus, the mockery of anything holy and or special and that breaks down the defenses.
there is rarely one reason alone, but elit can keep his head in the sand.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 09:51:45 PM


If that is what you think happened with 100s maybe thousands of times the amount of people leaving yiddishkeit in college without the rebeliousness found in many current OTD kids then yes.
You are comparing Apple's to oranges
Going otd from college campusus of the 70s didn't require the pain because it wasn't anywhere near the degree of separation that we are talking about if anything it was embracing culture and social circles that they were more a part of then they were leaving
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 10:33:40 PM
You are comparing Apple's to oranges
Going otd from college campusus of the 70s didn't require the pain because it wasn't anywhere near the degree of separation that we are talking about if anything it was embracing culture and social circles that they were more a part of then they were leaving
Keep your head in the sand. I guess it is comfortable for you there.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: elit on March 15, 2017, 10:34:44 PM
Keep your head in the sand. I guess it is comfortable for you there.
So we've moved on from your cognitive dissonance line to the head in the sand one. Nice.
#winningarguments
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 15, 2017, 10:43:33 PM
So we've moved on from your cognitive dissonance line to the head in the sand one. Nice.
#winningarguments
They are the same thing. It was not only in colleges in the 70s and if you even put a small amount of effort you would know that. I am not denying that there is hurt involved but to deny the importance of other factors is simply silly and unhelpful to anyone.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: efflpetzel on March 16, 2017, 12:30:14 AM
Talk about a thread going off the rails.....
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: TimT on March 16, 2017, 01:07:46 AM
Talk about a thread going off the rails.....
It's definitely swinging
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: lechatchileh ariber on March 16, 2017, 01:20:53 AM
It's definitely swinging
Best of?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: mmgfarb on March 16, 2017, 02:32:38 AM
It's definitely swinging
Pun intended?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 16, 2017, 08:15:33 AM
What did you guys think the conversation about this article was? Where they were last night?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: lechatchileh ariber on March 16, 2017, 10:44:13 AM
Does laziness fall into the category of tacos according to you guys?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: chevron on March 16, 2017, 04:30:02 PM
My dream would be to teach jewish history in relation to rituals.

In absence of the Bait Hamikdash, kjudaism became a religion of rituals. The excitement of daily practice is long gone, holidays are no longer as exciting, go to the kotel on tisha b'av and how many jews are really crying ?

Rav JB soloveitchik writes a lot about this, I love his passion expression tempered by intellect, his brisker lineage, influence of a chabad melamed and reconciling his secular encounters and huge intellect.

Chabad didnt do it for me because without the Rebbe, its hard to stay connected.. just as above with bait hamikdash. Also chabad philosophy didnt cater to my intellect.

Being non religious can be any thing really but yes its mostly the appeal of pleasure without guilt, as Eliyahu said "how long will you serve both baal and God ?"

Pleasures can be anything from trayf, to wanting to party on shabbat, sure a lot is sexual, but its mostly a lack of connection and caring, a bit like how marriages break down, at some point people just dont care any more so they leave.

For me, studying the Mesorah and the intellectual supremacy of the Rav, the Halachik mind, the Halachik man, the lonely man of faith etc coupled with my knowledge of Chasidus is really what keeps me grounded.

Also, the frum worlds really needs to step back and re-evaluate itself, never was being religious so heavy in rules and rituals, its like a guy that buys his wife fancy gifts but cant be bothered to listen her speak and sincerely be there for her.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: efflpetzel on March 16, 2017, 07:08:21 PM
My dream would be to teach jewish history in relation to rituals.

In absence of the Bait Hamikdash, kjudaism became a religion of rituals. The excitement of daily practice is long gone, holidays are no longer as exciting, go to the kotel on tisha b'av and how many jews are really crying ?

Rav JB soloveitchik writes a lot about this, I love his passion expression tempered by intellect, his brisker lineage, influence of a chabad melamed and reconciling his secular encounters and huge intellect.

Chabad didnt do it for me because without the Rebbe, its hard to stay connected.. just as above with bait hamikdash. Also chabad philosophy didnt cater to my intellect.

Being non religious can be any thing really but yes its mostly the appeal of pleasure without guilt, as Eliyahu said "how long will you serve both baal and God ?"

Pleasures can be anything from trayf, to wanting to party on shabbat, sure a lot is sexual, but its mostly a lack of connection and caring, a bit like how marriages break down, at some point people just dont care any more so they leave.

For me, studying the Mesorah and the intellectual supremacy of the Rav, the Halachik mind, the Halachik man, the lonely man of faith etc coupled with my knowledge of Chasidus is really what keeps me grounded.

Also, the frum worlds really needs to step back and re-evaluate itself, never was being religious so heavy in rules and rituals, its like a guy that buys his wife fancy gifts but cant be bothered to listen her speak and sincerely be there for her.
I'm assuming your not married after saying this, but the rest of you're post is spot on

Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: JTZ on March 16, 2017, 07:59:59 PM
What did you guys think the conversation about this article was? Where they were last night?
We can always hope.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: meshugener on March 17, 2017, 02:41:30 PM
Not exactly, and might sound a little condescending.

There was a group of highly intellectual bochurim who went OTD (to various degrees). כז אדר \ ג תמוז might have been part of the trigger or facilitator, but there were definitely other factors. At least one of them (son of a neighbor of mine) is somewhat attached, and has been seen around more often in recent years. IINM they all did drugs to a certain extent at some point.

That brings to mind another highly intellectual classmate of mine (from Morristown) who went OTD, I see him in Crown Heights rarely, and don't really know what his status is.

And then there's another one who used to stand right next to me at the Rebbe's farbrengens, had a phenomenal head and memory, and used to do חזרה of the farbrengens in great detail. He went OTD after he was married.

By no stretch of the imagination would I call any of the above an עם-הארץ, these guys were all top of the class, both in נגלה and חסידות! However, I really don't think it was an intellectual trigger that caused any of the above to go OTD. While none of us knows what's in people's minds, especially in the last case I mentioned, I believe he just succumbed to his תאוות.

What's drugs got to do with being intellectual or not?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: meshugener on March 17, 2017, 02:46:07 PM

90% of OTD is because they cant reconcile their sexual activity with Judaism...1% is intellectual OTD and the rest is a mixture of reasons.
You're fascinated with sex.

While your lust fantasies may have been your urge to go OTD (didn't end happening because your ego is more powerful than your sexual desires), that's not necessarily what drives the 90% OTD.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: meshugener on March 17, 2017, 02:47:48 PM
My impression is that being OTD is not much fun; typically it means losing your entire social network, community, and to some extent family. 

I'd assume people leave if the pain they have in staying is more than that.

Well said.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2017, 02:58:03 PM
What's drugs got to do with being intellectual or not?
Welcome to the discussion.

Did I infer anywhere that doing drugs has anything to do with intellect?

However, drugs are part of going OTD. My entire post was about not connecting going OTD with עם הארצות.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2017, 03:01:40 PM
You're fascinated with sex.

Reminds me of
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2017, 03:02:05 PM
However, drugs are part of going OTD.

Says who? Aren't they mutually exclusive?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2017, 03:04:32 PM
Says who? Aren't they mutually exclusive?
What does the D of OTD stand for?

Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: hvaces42 on March 17, 2017, 03:08:44 PM
You're fascinated with sex.

While your lust fantasies may have been your urge to go OTD (didn't end happening because your ego is more powerful than your sexual desires), that's not necessarily what drives the 90% OTD.
And you sir are Meshugener...need I say more?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: lechatchileh ariber on March 17, 2017, 03:17:55 PM
Maybe ddf was more fun because mesh was here?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 17, 2017, 03:39:50 PM
Says who? Aren't they mutually exclusive?
Drugs often cause OTD
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: AsherO on March 17, 2017, 03:47:25 PM
What does the D of OTD stand for?

Derech, typically referring to Shabbos, Kashrus, TH, Davening etc. Someone could technically do all those and still use drugs recreationally. And not all OTD people use drugs, hence I say they're mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 17, 2017, 04:35:45 PM
Derech, typically referring to Shabbos, Kashrus, TH, Davening etc. Someone could technically do all those and still use drugs recreationally. And not all OTD people use drugs, hence I say they're mutually exclusive.
Many people would define "doing drugs" as a deviation from the "Derech". It is a deviation from ישובו של עולם, and regardless of שמירת התורה והמצוות could be considered OTD.

I definitely agree that not all OTD people use drugs (I would hope that most don't), but that doesn't make them "mutually exclusive" which in English means "cannot co-exist" AFAIK.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: mmgfarb on March 17, 2017, 06:05:25 PM
Can we define "drugs"? Are you including pot in that?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: JTZ on March 18, 2017, 08:38:57 PM
What's drugs got to do with being intellectual or not?
It kills brain cells.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: lechatchileh ariber on March 18, 2017, 09:05:39 PM
Quote
any cell in my body that can't handle alcohol, I don't want it
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: mmgfarb on March 18, 2017, 09:13:02 PM

Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Bukboy on March 19, 2017, 03:44:52 PM
Derech, typically referring to Shabbos, Kashrus, TH, Davening etc. Someone could technically do all those and still use drugs recreationally. And not all OTD people use drugs, hence I say they're mutually exclusive.
Someone can technically use drugs and drive home safely, Does drugs cause car accidents? Derech is a road, Which requires being in control while you drive on that road and if you're not in control it can and will most likely cause the driver behind the wheel to make stupid mistakes 
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: koplonko on March 19, 2017, 03:47:42 PM
Someone can technically use drugs and drive home safely, Does drugs cause car accidents? Derech is a road, Which requires being in control while you drive on that road and if you're not in control it can and will most likely cause the driver behind the wheel to make stupid mistakes
Nice
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 19, 2017, 08:56:23 PM
Many people would define "doing drugs" as a deviation from the "Derech". It is a deviation from ישובו של עולם, and regardless of שמירת התורה והמצוות could be considered OTD.

I definitely agree that not all OTD people use drugs (I would hope that most don't), but that doesn't make them "mutually exclusive" which in English means "cannot co-exist" AFAIK.
Addiction affects on the derech people just as much as off the derech people. They are not related.

Happens to be the case that the vast majority of on the derech people don't have exposure to drugs.... Until they break a leg, twist an ankle, and become narcotic addicts...
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2017, 09:27:32 PM
Addiction affects on the derech people just as much as off the derech people. They are not related.

Happens to be the case that the vast majority of on the derech people don't have exposure to drugs.... Until they break a leg, twist an ankle, and become narcotic addicts...
Where did I mention addiction?

As far as I understand, "doing drugs" has one purpose - to get "high" and escape reality. It is counter to any imaginable "Derech".

I have suffered severe pain a couple of times, and was given opioid pain killers. And while I had a friend who is a pain management doctor who would prescribe for me almost anything I asked for, I never even finished the first prescription given. I took it once or twice in order to be able to sleep, after two nights without any, but as soon as I was able to cope without (b.h. My symptoms had subsided) I didn't touch the stuff. I don't enjoy being on a chemical "high".
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 19, 2017, 09:37:23 PM
Where did I mention addiction?

As far as I understand, "doing drugs" has one purpose - to get "high" and escape reality. It is counter to any imaginable "Derech".

I have suffered severe pain a couple of times, and was given opioid pain killers. And while I had a friend who is a pain management doctor who would prescribe for me almost anything I asked for, I never even finished the first prescription given. I took it once or twice in order to be able to sleep, after two nights without any, but as soon as I was able to cope without (b.h. My symptoms had subsided) I didn't touch the stuff. I don't enjoy being on a chemical "high".

You say that doing drugs is to escape reality, and is therefore something an on the derech person would never do...

Plenty of frum ppl have very difficult "realities". It's incorrect to assume they would never tell try to "escape.

Second, good for you. It doesn't mean other on the D Jews are not vulnerable.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2017, 10:00:48 PM
You say that doing drugs is to escape reality, and is therefore something an on the derech person would never do...

I think we might be getting into semantics her, but doesn't one have to be on the Derech first, in order to go OFF of it?

Plenty of frum ppl have very difficult "realities". It's incorrect to assume they would never tell try to "escape.

Unfortunately, very true. However, there are ways to deal with it that don't involve a
chemical "high".

Please don't get me wrong. I am not judging anyone. I started off by telling a story to refute the claim that OTD has to do with עם הארצות. In telling some facts, drugs were mentioned, which led to the current discussion of whether drugs have anything to do with OTD. I expressed my opinion that drugs are by definition OTD - or maybe we can say that תחילת נפילה - ניסה. Escaping reality is (or could be) the beginning of going OTD.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Mordyk on March 27, 2018, 02:07:42 PM
how have i never seen this thread???? ;D ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: mmgfarb on March 27, 2018, 02:10:09 PM
how have i never seen this thread???? ;D ;D ;D ;D
How did you just run into this now?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: TimT on March 27, 2018, 02:13:53 PM
how have i never seen this thread???? ;D ;D ;D ;D
There are so so many gems hidden in JS. Trust me
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: stooges44 on March 27, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
There are so so many gems hidden in JS. Trust me

But sometimes you need the jewelers loupe to see the sparkle  ;)
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Mordyk on March 27, 2018, 02:25:37 PM
How did you just run into this now?
I wanted to see what Mesh was up to, so i checked "its" previous posts
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 27, 2018, 02:26:03 PM
How did you just run into this now?
I'm guessing since meshuganar came online he checked his recent posts.
ETA: naaaaiiiiled it
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Mordyk on March 27, 2018, 02:58:31 PM
I'm guessing since meshuganar came online he checked his recent posts.
ETA: naaaaiiiiled it
another gem
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=73334.100
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 27, 2018, 03:11:36 PM
another gem
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=73334.100


ETA: 4 years later

ETA: Friday's have been LAME lately :)
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: Mordyk on March 27, 2018, 03:13:53 PM


ETA: 4 years later

ETA: Friday's have been LAME lately :)
huh? its from 2017
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 27, 2018, 03:15:55 PM
huh? its from 2017
I was dictating my response, I predicted 4 years ahead, I assume it'll be longer but my predictions don't go past that
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 27, 2018, 03:22:47 PM
another gem
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=73334.100
I'm going to stop reading this gold.
Need to lock it from the single folk :D

Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 27, 2018, 03:33:23 PM
Now I know why JTZ left. He could not take the responsibility you put on him.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 27, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
Now I know why JTZ left. He could not take the responsibility you put on him.
I think he is still explaining some things to meshuganar.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 27, 2018, 03:45:38 PM
I think he is still explaining some things to meshuganar.
IIRC the last time those two talked they were talking about shaving heads.  :)
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: aygart on March 27, 2018, 03:46:28 PM
IIRC the last time those two talked they were talking about shaving heads.  :)
Wow, you really keep track of that guy! Creepy.
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 27, 2018, 03:46:58 PM
IIRC the last time those two talked they were talking about shaving heads.  :)
Link?
Title: Re: NY Post Article On Satmar Couple's Open Marriage (Interesting Articles Split)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 27, 2018, 03:47:53 PM
Wow, you really keep track of that guy! Creepy.
Which one or both of them?  :P