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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: stooges44 on April 03, 2017, 05:06:44 PM

Title: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: stooges44 on April 03, 2017, 05:06:44 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/8355796e3431e355e55997670d162651.jpg)

(https://i.gyazo.com/256331593bd405ede6b73100cca63d6d.jpg)

(https://i.gyazo.com/e227fd844e5b0ced0df183e62aee9df8.jpg)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 03, 2017, 05:10:26 PM
Ouch
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 03, 2017, 05:24:30 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/8355796e3431e355e55997670d162651.jpg)

(https://i.gyazo.com/256331593bd405ede6b73100cca63d6d.jpg)

(https://i.gyazo.com/e227fd844e5b0ced0df183e62aee9df8.jpg)
If the people who wrote this letter, in any way reflect the people running this program, this is not even a small surprise. If I had just shelled out $15k or whatever exorbitant amount they are charging, I'd expect them to put a bit more effort into the cancelation letter.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: avremie on April 03, 2017, 05:25:13 PM
Did Trump write that?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 03, 2017, 05:26:01 PM
Did Trump write that?
no, it was the Russians
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ADG on April 03, 2017, 05:43:50 PM
no need to quote it in your text- we get that this is letter you are referring to...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 03, 2017, 05:46:12 PM
Terrible English.
Even on the website itself.
Maybe this while thing was a scam to begin with.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 03, 2017, 06:08:18 PM
Yikes. Reads like a Nigerian spam email.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: keemster26 on April 03, 2017, 06:41:43 PM
Yikes. Reads like a Nigerian spam email.
Late April fools?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Torkay on April 03, 2017, 06:42:08 PM
Terrible English.
Even on the website itself.
Maybe this while thing was a scam to begin with.
This hotel has been around for more than a year. I've heard wonderful things. I think it is run by Israelis which would explain the horrific writing
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 03, 2017, 06:44:25 PM
This hotel has been around for more than a year. I've heard wonderful things. I think it is run by Israelis which would explain the horrific writing
No it explains nothing. I'm not fluent in Hebrew and all of its grammar, but if I am running a high end Israeli event, I sure as hell will have someone who is, take care of everything in that department.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 03, 2017, 08:00:12 PM
Mexico will pay for Pesach!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 03, 2017, 08:07:09 PM
No it explains nothing. I'm not fluent in Hebrew and all of its grammar, but if I am running a high end Israeli event, I sure as hell will have someone who is, take care of everything in that department.
The question isn't about Hebrew grammar. It's the Israeli mentality that you might not grasp.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 03, 2017, 08:09:59 PM
The question isn't about Hebrew grammar. It's the Israeli mentality that you might not grasp.
That too. There is an extreme lack of professionalism. When you have to cancel, don't try to save face with excuses, just say that due to conflicts the program will be cancelled. Or don't give any insight.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 03, 2017, 08:11:04 PM
Did Trump write that?
Bigly
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 03, 2017, 08:13:01 PM
There was an advertisement online for those who were supposed to be in Greece to have flight from Greece (2hrs) to pesach program in Israel....
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 03, 2017, 08:15:37 PM
.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: David Smith on April 03, 2017, 08:16:13 PM
The strange thing is that they are complaining about a €4800 and €9000 bill that they say is indicative of the circumstances that caused them to have to cancel. While these aren't sums sneeze at, in terms of a pesach program, and considering what people are paying, this is nothing. Sticking that in won't garner then any sympathy from their customers.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 03, 2017, 08:23:53 PM
The strange thing is that they are complaining about a €4800 and €9000 bill that they say is indicative of the circumstances that caused them to have to cancel. While these aren't sums sneeze at, in terms of a pesach program, and considering what people are paying, this is nothing. Sticking that in won't garner then any sympathy from their customers.
From a professional standpoint, they should absorb costs, even if it results in a loss, in order to maintain reputation.

The one exception to that is if whoever gives the Hashgocho feels that he can't work with, or trust the resort management, which would be a reason to walk away from the resort, but if organizers care about their own reputation, they should do everything at any cost to make sure whoever booked with them gets an alternative arrangement, as close as possible to what they booked.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: David Smith on April 03, 2017, 08:26:14 PM
From a professional standpoint, they should absorb costs, even if it results in a loss, in order to maintain reputation.

The one exception to that is if whoever gives the Hashgocho feels that he can't work with, or trust the resort management, which would be a reason to walk away from the resort, but if organizers care about their own reputation, they should do everything at any cost to make sure whoever booked with them gets an alternative arrangement, as close as possible to what they booked.
Their problem sounded legitimate. The food was stranded, needed to be refrigerated in order not to get ruined, and guests were arriving in next couple days.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 03, 2017, 08:26:34 PM
From a professional standpoint, they should absorb costs, even if it results in a loss, in order to maintain reputation.

The one exception to that is if whoever gives the Hashgocho feels that he can't work with, or trust the resort management, which would be a reason to walk away from the resort, but if organizers care about their own reputation, they should do everything at any cost to make sure whoever booked with them gets an alternative arrangement, as close as possible to what they booked.
I agree with your statement, but I understood this to be an insight to the many other problems they were having.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 03, 2017, 08:31:15 PM
I agree with your statement, but I understood this to be an insight to the many other problems they were having.
No "but" is in order here. If they made a professional mistake and hooked up with people that don't know how to deal in a businesslike way, in most cases they can deal with that for the right price. Kashrus is a different story altogether. If one cannot have minimal trust, it's a non-starter.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 03, 2017, 08:33:48 PM
No "but" is in order here. If they made a professional mistake and hooked up with people that don't know how to deal in a businesslike way, in most cases they can deal with that for the right price. Kashrus is a different story altogether. If one cannot have minimal trust, it's a non-starter.
Sorry, my response was to Mr Smith and you, but I didn't quote him.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: regular on April 03, 2017, 09:31:08 PM
From a professional standpoint, they should absorb costs, even if it results in a loss, in order to maintain reputation.

The one exception to that is if whoever gives the Hashgocho feels that he can't work with, or trust the resort management, which would be a reason to walk away from the resort, but if organizers care about their own reputation, they should do everything at any cost to make sure whoever booked with them gets an alternative arrangement, as close as possible to what they booked.
The question isn't about Hebrew grammar. It's the Israeli mentality that you might not grasp.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yammer on April 03, 2017, 10:21:58 PM


From a professional standpoint, they should absorb costs, even if it results in a loss, in order to maintain reputation.

The one exception to that is if whoever gives the Hashgocho feels that he can't work with, or trust the resort management, which would be a reason to walk away from the resort, but if organizers care about their own reputation, they should do everything at any cost to make sure whoever booked with them gets an alternative arrangement, as close as possible to what they booked.

+1
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 02:45:51 AM
That too. There is an extreme lack of professionalism. When you have to cancel, don't try to save face with excuses, just say that due to conflicts the program will be cancelled. Or don't give any insight.
Absolutely not. If you just laid down 20k for pesach only to have it cancelled a week before with a short nondescriptive email you would be livid. Of course you would want some sort of explanation.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Boruch999 on April 04, 2017, 04:42:57 AM
Absolutely not. If you just laid down 20k for pesach only to have it cancelled a week before with a short nondescriptive email you would be livid. Of course you would want some sort of explanation.

Agreed.  It doesn't excuse the typical Israeli arrogance of not getting an English speaker to write the English.  In this case, an English speaking PR agency.  The fact that they neglected to do that is indicative of gross incompetence, also a typical Israeli trait.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 04:51:35 AM


  The fact that they neglected to do that is indicative of gross incompetence, also a typical Israeli trait.
I think you are using the wrong word, Israelis are far from incompetent.
Your being very harsh for something that isn't true, almost like you're the arrogant one.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 07:16:54 AM
If you just laid down 20k for pesach...
Is that the going price for something like this? I assume this is for a family, how many?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 07:27:37 AM
Is that the going price for something like this? I assume this is for a family, how many?
There is no going price, you can go to a $1500 PP program or a $8000 PP program. You can have zero kids or 16.
These programs are evil IMO.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 07:31:34 AM



These programs are evil IMO.
+1
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 04, 2017, 07:53:34 AM
+1


Evil? It has more to do with lazy people who can't manage to make Yom Tov like their parents or grandparents did for generations. There are always people who actually can't make though.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 04, 2017, 08:17:25 AM
Is that the going price for something like this? I assume this is for a family, how many?

its a good business to be in if you do it right
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 08:31:27 AM
Evil? It has more to do with lazy people who can't manage to make Yom Tov like their parents or grandparents did for generations. There are always people who actually can't make though.
that depends on the program. There are some which offer programs ranging from a basic to a very nice Yom tov with activities for those people. These exotic programs are much more than that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 08:34:16 AM
These programs are evil IMO.
Not necessarily evil but definitely not in the spirit of Pesach. We were always taught, pesach you stay home, sukkos you leave your house. These days its the opposite, pesach you leave home and built-in sukkos have brought that yom tov into the house.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 04, 2017, 08:40:22 AM
Not necessarily evil but definitely not in the spirit of Pesach. We were always taught, pesach you stay home, sukkos you leave your house. These days its the opposite, pesach you leave home and built-in sukkos have brought that yom tov into the house.

not sure about this "pesach you stay home" training.

Never heard of Aliyah L'Regel?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 08:41:44 AM
not sure about this "pesach you stay home" training.

Never heard of Aliyah L'Regel?
It's been a few thousand years, but those were the good ole days
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Iz on April 04, 2017, 08:51:06 AM
not sure about this "pesach you stay home" training.
I think he's referring to the idea that the whole avodah of Pesach is to spend time with our children and give over the mesorah of yetziyas mitzrayim, emunah, and kol mimi d'meitav. Yes, it's harder nowadays that they come to the seder knowing "everything", but that is still the letter of the law and the flavor of the law, and we are enjoined to accomplish this to the best of our abilities. Obviously, the home atmosphere is much more conducive to this than any other venue.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 04, 2017, 08:58:40 AM
I think he's referring to the idea that the whole avodah of Pesach is to spend time with our children and give over the mesorah of yetziyas mitzrayim, emunah, and kol mimi d'meitav. Yes, it's harder nowadays that they come to the seder knowing "everything", but that is still the letter of the law and the flavor of the law, and we are enjoined to accomplish this to the best of our abilities. Obviously, the home atmosphere is much more conducive to this than any other venue.

And I argue that in the times of the beis hamikdash they seemed to be able to do that even away from home. granted it was yerushalayim and there was the korban pesach but still to say that pesach is at home seems to be a bit strong. One could argue that pesach in a hotel is closer to pesach in yerushalayim of old where one got together a chaburah to eat the korban pesach away from their home.

IMO the pesach programs are bad chinuch for the focus of gashmiyus, but to complain about not being able to give over the mesorah as well at a hotel vs home seems a bit farfetched.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 09:03:51 AM
that depends on the program. There are some which offer programs ranging from a basic to a very nice Yom tov with activities for those people. These exotic programs are much more less than that.
FTFY
As in less focus on Yomtov, more focus on indulgence.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 09:04:05 AM
not sure about this "pesach you stay home" training.

Never heard of Aliyah L'Regel?
Even when one was Oleh Regel, they stayed with their group/family, had their own korban, werent allowed to partake in other's. A pesach program at a resort is absolutely not what aliyah l'regel was all about. So yeah, staying at home (in the family sense) is the proper training.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Iz on April 04, 2017, 09:11:27 AM

One could argue that pesach in a hotel is closer to pesach in yerushalayim of old where one got together a chaburah to eat the korban pesach away from their home.
With a straight face? :o
IMO the pesach programs are bad chinuch for the focus of gashmiyus
Exactly!
Which is why I disagree with this:
but to complain about not being able to give over the mesorah as well at a hotel vs home seems a bit farfetched.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 04, 2017, 09:14:27 AM
And another thread goes off topic.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: stooges44 on April 04, 2017, 09:16:53 AM
And another thread goes off topic.

That's why they call it JS  :-\
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 09:21:06 AM
With a straight face? :o
Exactly!
Which is why I disagree with this:

There's your chinuch.
If you can even argue that without a straight face then the mesorah has been lost.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 09:22:02 AM
And another thread goes off topic.
All I asked was a simple straight forward question.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 04, 2017, 09:26:51 AM
All I asked was a simple straight forward question.
Simple and straight forward doesn't exist in the Jewish vernacular
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 09:27:56 AM
All I asked was a simple straight forward question.
You, my dear sir, are obviously not Jewish. No such thing as a straightforward question in the Jewish tradition.  :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 09:30:05 AM
Simple and straight forward doesn't exist in the Jewish vernacular
You, my dear sir, are obviously not Jewish. No such thing as a straightforward question in the Jewish tradition.  :)
That is not my problem.  :P
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 09:57:06 AM
IMO the pesach programs are bad chinuch for the focus of gashmiyus, but to complain about not being able to give over the mesorah as well at a hotel vs home seems a bit farfetched.
This is why some are worse than others.
that depends on the program. There are some which offer programs ranging from a basic to a very nice Yom tov with activities for guests. These exotic programs are much worse than that.
In the more Yom Tov focused programs there can very well be a very nice family seder etc. For some it would be much better where they do not have the job of preparing the seudos etc. I have been there since my family had run one of the first Pesach programs in the 60s and 70s (maybe earlier). It did not look anything like these Pesach in Greece programs. When there are these exotic programs people are not spending all that money to go to Greece, Hawaii, Bermuda or wherever else to be in a hotel for 5-6 days of their stay. These programs would be much worse chinuch.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aryeh1 on April 04, 2017, 12:20:00 PM
I heard they are selling pesach hotel insurance in case it gets cancelled :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Shmuel4 on April 04, 2017, 12:23:10 PM
I heard they are selling pesach hotel insurance in case it gets cancelled :)
Or..you can just put it on a AMEX 8)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: David Smith on April 04, 2017, 12:44:24 PM
I heard they are selling pesach hotel insurance in case it gets cancelled :)
What does that cover? Therapy for the wife to deal with stress of making pesach in three days or finding a new place?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aryeh1 on April 04, 2017, 12:48:29 PM
What does that cover? Therapy for the wife to deal with stress of making pesach in three days or finding a new place?
Only the black card covers that
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 12:55:46 PM
What does that cover? Therapy for the wife to deal with stress of making pesach in three days or finding a new place?
Is it easier or harder to make pesach in 3 days?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 12:58:15 PM
Is it easier or harder to make pesach in 3 days?
Harder but less stress.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 01:00:28 PM
I heard they are selling pesach hotel insurance in case it gets cancelled :)
There are definitely travel insurance programs that might cover these types of cancellations. However, IMHO, a full refund of what was paid (which is probably the maximum which would be covered, and if "tour operator" offers a full refund, then the insurance would probably pay nil) does not make purchasers of this "tour" whole, as the proximity to the start date puts them in a situation where they have to find an alternative at possibly much higher cost.

I don't think the organizers of this program should be let off the hook, though it might unfortunately bankrupt them (unless they obtained proper insurance/financial backing, which I have a hunch they might have not, due to the unprofessional way this seems to be unfolding). This might serve as a lesson for the industry, and for those that participate in such programs, to make sure that there are proper financial assurances for scenarios when things go bad.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 01:02:36 PM
This might serve as a lesson for the industry, and for those that participate in such programs, to make sure that there are proper financial assurances for scenarios when things go bad.
Should we expect a DDMS PSA?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 01:14:08 PM
Should we expect a DDMS PSA?
Doubtful
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 04, 2017, 01:15:59 PM
This might serve as a lesson for the industry, and for those that participate in such programs, to make sure that there are proper financial assurances for scenarios when things go bad.
You'd think that people spending tens of thousands of dollars on these programs would look into these possibilities beforehand.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 01:16:34 PM
Doubtful
I pay to read that comment section!  :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 01:17:07 PM
I pay to read that comment section!  :)
How much? I'm sure we can work something out
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: stooges44 on April 04, 2017, 01:17:20 PM
You'd think that people spending tens of thousands of dollars on these programs would look into these possibilities beforehand.

The opposite, the fact that I'm paying tens of thousands should leave me the peace of mind that all will be taken care of.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 04, 2017, 01:22:11 PM
The opposite, the fact that I'm paying tens of thousands should leave me the peace of mind that all will be taken care of.
With prices like are being charged, there should be legal binding contracts signed by all parties (including hotels and suppliers) involved.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 04, 2017, 01:23:33 PM
Imagine the write up if it was Dans program that cancelled.....anyway, I don't think anyone who booked with this program is lacking the funds to simply change plans to a different location....
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 01:24:36 PM
The opposite, the fact that I'm paying tens of thousands should leave me the peace of mind that all will be taken care of.
That's indicative of poor money management, if you're not going to make sure that what you're spending 10's of thousands of dollars is guaranteed and backed up, those 10's of thousands aren't going to last long.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 01:25:33 PM
Imagine the write up if it was Dans program that cancelled.....anyway, I don't think anyone who booked with this program is lacking the funds to simply change plans to a different location....
Finding something available at this point has got to be difficult.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 01:26:34 PM
How much? I'm sure we can work something out
+1,000,000,000
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 01:32:04 PM
Finding something available at this point has got to be difficult.
Except its not.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 01:32:25 PM
Except its not.
I stand corrected then.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:16:34 PM
To those of you complaining about Pesach programs in general, would you go if it were free?

Also, the guy running the program actually lives in Belgium, so I'm not sure if he qualifies as Israeli.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 04, 2017, 02:18:37 PM
To those of you complaining about Pesach programs in general, would you go if it were free?

Also, the guy running the program actually lives in Belgium, so I'm not sure if he qualifies as Israeli.
i would try it. Side note: I know 2 families that go every year that claim to hate it (but the Father insists on going with their extended families )
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:21:33 PM
i would try it. Side note: I know 2 families that go every year that claim to hate it (but the Father insists on going)


I've done both. Going away is better both b'ruchnies u'bigashmias. I would assume it depends on the program, speakers and Rabbonim present.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 04, 2017, 02:21:43 PM
To those of you complaining about Pesach programs in general, would you go if it were free?

Also, the guy running the program actually lives in Belgium, so I'm not sure if he qualifies as Israeli.

I wouldn't go if it were free. It goes against everything we were taught regarding our values and pesach.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:22:44 PM
I wouldn't go if it were free. It goes against everything we were taught regarding our values and pesach.

Uh huh.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 02:24:25 PM

I've done both. Going away is better for me both b'ruchnies u'bigashmias.
FTFY
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:25:28 PM
Uh huh.
Don't ask a question if you won't take the answer. Some people actually enjoy spending some simple time at home with their families.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:26:22 PM
Don't ask a question if you won't take the answer. Some people actually enjoy spending some simple time at home with their families.

They come across as jealous people with no real choice.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: David Smith on April 04, 2017, 02:29:10 PM
Should we expect a DDMS PSA?
Dan is working for one of those programs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:29:24 PM


To me they come across as jealous people with no real choice.
FTFY.  I probably would end up going if it were free, but that doesn't mean I support the idea. I'm young and looking to get things in while I can. Years down the line, with kids and grandchildren visiting, I highly doubt I'll want to pack up my life and leave for a week+

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:30:06 PM
FTFY.  I probably would end up going if it were free, but that doesn't mean I support the idea. I'm young and looking to get things in while I can. Years down the line, with kids and grandchildren visiting, I highly doubt I'll want to pack up my life and leave for a week+

But what about the Ruchnios aspect?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:31:25 PM
But what about the Ruchnios aspect?
You've never done something in life where you questioned the ruchnios aspect of it, but we're pulled by the gashmios?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cholent on April 04, 2017, 02:31:52 PM
To those of you complaining about Pesach programs in general, would you go if it were free?

Also, the guy running the program actually lives in Belgium, so I'm not sure if he qualifies as Israeli.

My parents were offered the opportunity to go to a Pesach program for free (as a speaker) several times. They declined. It goes against both their minhagim of not "mishing" on Pesach as well as the Pesach atmosphere they aim for at home. I'm sure they are not unique.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on April 04, 2017, 02:32:03 PM
They come across as jealous people with no real choice.

Or they've spoke to a Mashgiach at one of these programs...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:33:33 PM


My parents were offered the opportunity to go to a Pesach program for free (as a speaker) several times. They declined. It goes against both their minhagim of not "mishing" on Pesach as well as the Pesach atmosphere they aim for at home. I'm sure they are not unique.

They are not. My parents (not speakers) are exactly the same. They firmly believe that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:33:55 PM
Or they've spoke to a Mashgiach at one of these programs...


Doesn't say much about the Rabbonim who do go, does it?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:35:16 PM

Doesn't say much about the Rabbonim who do go, does it?
I don't look at every flyer or ad for these, but it's usually speakers that go, not rabbonim
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 04, 2017, 02:35:29 PM
Don't ask a question if you won't take the answer. Some people actually enjoy spending some simple time at home with their families.
+1
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 02:37:53 PM
I don't look at every flyer or ad for these, but it's usually speakers that go, not rabbonim

Take a second look. There are some big  respected names out there.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 02:39:04 PM
Having done:
-Pesach at home
-Pesach at an Airbnb with food brought from home
-Pesach at a program
-Pesach at the in-laws.

I can say with confidence that there are pluses and minuses to each approach (except the latter ;)...jk) and what works for one family may not work for another. I don't think it's fair to judge either way, but it is worth switching off to give your kids a taste of different experiences, especially if you normally go away every year.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:44:02 PM
Take a second look. There are some big  respected names out there.
Like I said I don't look at every ad. Regardless that really means nothing to me, if they aren't my rav. In addition, this whole concept can be halachicly OK, but that doesn't mean it's preferred by all. I don't like the concept from a ruchniosdik standpoint. A rav needs to make a parnassa too, and yes I agree that him being there does say something, but that doesn't mean this is where he wanted to spend his Yom tov.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on April 04, 2017, 02:45:20 PM
Having done:
-Pesach at home
-Pesach at an Airbnb with food brought from home
-Pesach at a program
-Pesach at the in-laws.


What to wish someone who is making:
Pesach at home - חג כשר ושמח
Pesach at in-laws - חג כשר
Pesach at hotel - חג שמח
Pesach at hotel with in-laws- חג...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 02:46:12 PM


Having done:
-Pesach at home
-Pesach at an Airbnb with food brought from home
-Pesach at a program
-Pesach at the in-laws.

I can say with confidence that there are pluses and minuses to each approach (except the latter ;)...jk) and what works for one family may not work for another. I don't think it's fair to judge either way, but it is worth switching off to give your kids a taste of different experiences, especially if you normally go away every year.

Agreed. I believe this debate is more from a hashkafic point of view, in which case it's really to each their own.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 03:05:42 PM
I think the problems here are

1. People who are quick to judge things just because they are different, or new

2. People not explaining themselves well and just saying "its bad" when they may mean other things.


I myself also think that there is something distasteful IN GENERAL to this whole idea of what Pesach hotels have become. But I think it's  a problem in America in general with the chase for luxury in extreme.  And when you combine that with the idea of YomTov it can sometimes leave you with a bad taste.

I don't have an issue with people doing things different.   Yes, there is something to be said for tradition but as the world evolves we'll always have things changing in different ways to the way things were done.

There are plenty of Pesach programs that are more "heimeish" if you will. And there are plenty of people going to Pesach hotels that are anything but heimish and are still there in the right spirit and I'm sure having a seder just as meaningful as some guy sitting at home.



And as a side note there  are plenty of people who can't make Pesach for various reasons and plenty of people who ONLY KEEP pesach because there are Pesach programs etc.   


I think the issue I have is more with our GENERAL focus of things that shouldn't be our main focus and this 'chase' for bigger, better, nicer that plagues our society at large.  This is just one example of where we see it.   So you have people looking at all the ads feeling like this is all wrong.

And then there folks who just think anything done different than what's always been done is "wrong"  -
 


Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 04, 2017, 03:10:20 PM

And then there folks who just think anything done different than what's always been done is "wrong"  -

What will they do when Mashiach comes  ;)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 03:11:29 PM


To those of you complaining about Pesach programs in general, would you go if it were free?



Of course, deep down I'm still a Jew, and free is free.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 03:13:01 PM

Of course, deep down I'm still a Jew, and free is free.

Lol  -  Kol Hakavod for your honesty.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 03:14:14 PM

Of course, deep down I'm still a Jew, and free is free.
Hate to say it, but that's been my take on it as well :)
But even at free I won't do it every year.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 03:19:08 PM
To those of you complaining about Pesach programs in general, would you go if it were free?

Not complaining, just feel it's incompatible.

Not only would I not go if it were free, I can't think of any price I would be willing to get paid in order to go to something like this (talking about the luxury programs), or even to a more "modest" program, unless I could have my own cooking facilities and my own food.

My values are not for sale at any price!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 03:19:22 PM

Of course, deep down I'm still a Jew, and free is free.

Made me smile.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 03:21:43 PM

Of course, deep down I'm still a Jew, and free is free.
There's no free lunch.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 03:24:36 PM
Not complaining, just feel it's incompatible.

Not only would I not go if it were free, I can't think of any price I would be willing to get paid in order to go to something like this (talking about the luxury programs), or even to a more "modest" program, unless I could have my own cooking facilities and my own food.

My values are not for sale at any price!

That's great.

Do you think it's wrong or anyone to go though?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 03:28:44 PM
That's great.

Do you think it's wrong or anyone to go though?

I cannot and will not judge anyone else (for any price  :) )

On that note, here's a nice piece someone sent me yesterday via Whatsapp:

ר' לייבל שיינין הרב החסידי של דאקשיץ לא היתה דרכו בנשיאת דרשות, אבל בשבת הגדול נהוג שהרב נושא דרשה, עלה על הבימה ואמר: כתוב במשנה שכל מקום שאין מכניסים בו חמץ אין צריך בדיקה. אף אחד לא הכניס אצל חברו חמץ ואין לו מה לחפש אצל זולתו חמץ וירד מהבימה.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 03:30:58 PM
Not complaining, just feel it's incompatible.

Not only would I not go if it were free, I can't think of any price I would be willing to get paid in order to go to something like this (talking about the luxury programs), or even to a more "modest" program, unless I could have my own cooking facilities and my own food.

My values are not for sale at any price!
True. The following statement is made with no hate or disregard. My guess, is that you are Lubavitch. From my understanding Lubavitchers are extremely makpid on specific food related aspects of pesach that many others may not be. This seems to the issue you have with these program, we'll that's how I understand it at least. I feel like many of us who are not as "pro" these programs, have many different reasons behind it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 03:48:11 PM
Take a second look. There are some big  respected names out there.

...which wouldn't necessarily be the first thing to look for when judging if something is in your personal hashkafik beliefs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 03:53:06 PM
Take a second look. There are some big  respected names out there.
I have long ago learnt that unfortunately that doesn't mean much.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 03:56:20 PM
True. The following statement is made with no hate or disregard. My guess, is that you are Lubavitch. From my understanding Lubavitchers are extremely makpid on specific food related aspects of pesach that many others may not be. This seems to the issue you have with these program, we'll that's how I understand it at least. I feel like many of us who are not as "pro" these programs, have many different reasons behind it.

While the food is definitely an issue (and I am sure that every person or family has their own הקפדות for Pesach, even my BIL and I are makpid in different ways), it if far from being the only issue. I did make a clear distinction between the "luxury" programs which I am positive aren't in the spirit of anything I would be willing to attend at any price (paid to me), and other programs which I am not likely to attend, but am not making a blanket statement ruling out without knowing the specifics.

I think that a program that could allow for people to do their own cooking with their own food, would by definition cater to a different kind of crowd, and have a different kind of atmosphere, but this is pure speculation.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 04:05:16 PM



I think that a program that could allow for people to do their own cooking with their own food

They have those already. 95% of practicing yidden participate in those actually.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 04:05:46 PM

They have those already. 95% of practicing yidden participate in those actually.
LOL
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mgarfin on April 04, 2017, 04:47:23 PM
There are 2 things to look at

1- Kashrus, which is a much bigger challenge on Pesach. In hotels in particular for varied reasons, the size, the menu needed, the staff, and the usually nonkosher establishment. On Pesach, small mistakes can pose a much bigger problem halachically.

2- Minhug, of not eating out on Pesach. Though its originates to eliminate the kashrus issue, it is still a minuhg.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 04:53:10 PM
Just curious...How does one who attends a program truly fulfill bedukas chametz/ biur chametz? Do they have a ceremonial biur chametz event erev pesach at the hotel?

Doesnt it cross anyones mind that kids can grow up and never know you make a bracha for bedikas chametz? Or kids not knowing how to put up a sukkah for those that go away for sukkos?

What about teaching kids that you have to work to put together a yom tov and not just write a check. What of the enjoyment of sitting down to a seder knowing that your efforts were appreciated. There are so many interpersonal, marital, religious and other experiences that can be taken from a seder that cannot be replicated at a program.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 04:57:46 PM
I have done it both ways as my grandparents were always in a hotel for pesach since at least the 50s. I went to a much more benign and heimish hotel without all the really crazy stuff. It was still not nearly as enjoyable as pesach at home. When we went after I got married my wife absolutely HATED it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 04:58:58 PM
Just curious...How does one who attends a program truly fulfill bedukas chametz/ biur chametz? Do they have a ceremonial biur chametz event erev pesach at the hotel?

Doesnt it cross anyones mind that kids can grow up and never know you make a bracha for bedikas chametz? Or kids not knowing how to put up a sukkah for those that go away for sukkos?

What about teaching kids that you have to work to put together a yom tov and not just write a check. What of the enjoyment of sitting down to a seder knowing that your efforts were appreciated. There are so many interpersonal, marital, religious and other experiences that can be taken from a seder that cannot be replicated at a program.

How would you know if they can be replicated at a program? I infer you haven't gone to a Pesach program. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 04:59:21 PM
There are 2 things to look at

1- Kashrus, which is a much bigger challenge on Pesach. In hotels in particular for varied reasons, the size, the menu needed, the staff, and the usually nonkosher establishment. On Pesach, small mistakes can pose a much bigger problem halachically.

2- Minhug, of not eating out on Pesach. Though its originates to eliminate the kashrus issue, it is still a minuhg.
Kashrus is a huge issue. I would venture a guess that most programs, even the best hechsheirim, end up having at least one major issue over yom tov. I've spoken to many head mashgichim about this.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 05:03:44 PM
How would you know if they can be replicated at a program? I infer you haven't gone to a Pesach program.
Yes, you're correct. The ad hominem attack is right on point.
However, You still havent addressed how you can replicate it or any other issue raised.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:06:17 PM
Yes, you're correct. The ad hominem attack is right on point.
However, You still havent addressed how you can replicate it or any other issue raised.

You're asking me to justify a subjective standard. There's no way to respond to that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 04, 2017, 05:09:14 PM
While the food is definitely an issue (and I am sure that every person or family has their own הקפדות for Pesach, even my BIL and I are makpid in different ways), it if far from being the only issue. I did make a clear distinction between the "luxury" programs which I am positive aren't in the spirit of anything I would be willing to attend at any price (paid to me), and other programs which I am not likely to attend, but am not making a blanket statement ruling out without knowing the specifics.

I think that a program that could allow for people to do their own cooking with their own food, would by definition cater to a different kind of crowd, and have a different kind of atmosphere, but this is pure speculation.
so basically, you have to clean your house, kasher your kitchen, shop for groceries, cook/bake, pack it all up to go, packup your family and be busy with menus/warming food the whole yt.......no thanks
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 05:17:54 PM

Doesnt it cross anyones mind that kids can grow up and never know you make a bracha for bedikas chametz? Or kids not knowing how to put up a sukkah for those that go away for sukkos?

For similar reasons, I used to take my Kapporos chickens home with me to Kasher and serve for Seuda Mafsekes for quite a few years. It was a special experience for the kids, and I even had friend and neighbors who heard about it bring their kids over, so that they see that there's a real kashering process required. (I also found this to be more palatable than knowing that the chickens go straight to the garbage when left at the kapporos place). I haven't done it in the last 2 or 3 years, but might go back to doing it so younger kids should also see it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 05:18:30 PM
My values are not for sale at any price!
I knew I would find something I liked about you.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 05:24:12 PM
You're asking me to justify a subjective standard. There's no way to respond to that.
How in heaven's name are you calling it subjective? Its a fact. How does a husband show appreciation to his wife for making yom tov beautiful when sitting at the hotel seder?

What about teaching kids that you have to work to put together a yom tov and not just write a check? Thats subjective?

How old are you? Are you married?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 04, 2017, 05:28:59 PM
For similar reasons, I used to take my Kapporos chickens home with me to Kasher and serve for Seuda Mafsekes for quite a few years. It was a special experience for the kids, and I even had friend and neighbors who heard about it bring their kids over, so that they see that there's a real kashering process required. (I also found this to be more palatable than knowing that the chickens go straight to the garbage when left at the kapporos place). I haven't done it in the last 2 or 3 years, but might go back to doing it so younger kids should also see it.

I think you should start getting the whole fish at the market so your kids can identify what makes it kosher as well
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:31:29 PM
How in heaven's name are you calling it subjective? Its a fact. How does a husband show appreciation to his wife for making yom tov beautiful when sitting at the hotel seder?

What about teaching kids that you have to work to put together a yom tov and not just write a check? Thats subjective?

How old are you? Are you married?

You need your wife to break her back and work like a dog in order for you to show her appreciation? Are you sadist?

Regarding teaching children, they are well aware of the costs of going away and cleaning work they are missing.  I remind them of the cost and their friends remind them of how hard they are working.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:32:27 PM
I think you should start getting the whole fish at the market so your kids can identify what makes it kosher as well

Better yet, raise your own chickens year round.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:33:22 PM
For similar reasons, I used to take my Kapporos chickens home with me to Kasher and serve for Seuda Mafsekes for quite a few years. It was a special experience for the kids, and I even had friend and neighbors who heard about it bring their kids over, so that they see that there's a real kashering process required. (I also found this to be more palatable than knowing that the chickens go straight to the garbage when left at the kapporos place). I haven't done it in the last 2 or 3 years, but might go back to doing it so younger kids should also see it.

That's great. We def could use more of that in the way we raise kids these days.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:34:29 PM
Better yet, raise your own chickens year round.

You joke. But honestly you'd be surprised at how kids don't connect what they are eating towards that chicken running around.

And I think that's an issue as well.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 05:35:00 PM
You need your wife to break her back and work like a dog in order for you to show her appreciation? Are you sadist?

Regarding teaching children, they are well aware of the costs of going away and cleaning work they are missing.  I remind them of the cost and their friends remind them of how hard they are working.
I'll just assume this post was completely facetious and be done. To say that those of us who oppose the hotels, sound jealous... It sounds like you don't understand life because money pays for anything that comes up. Your kids understand preparing for YT because they hear about it from their friends?! Wow.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:37:41 PM
How in heaven's name are you calling it subjective? Its a fact. How does a husband show appreciation to his wife for making yom tov beautiful when sitting at the hotel seder?

What about teaching kids that you have to work to put together a yom tov and not just write a check? Thats subjective?

How old are you? Are you married?

While I myself am not a hotel person I don't think you "need to make your wife work" just to be able to show her appreciation.

And to play devils advocate here... if you're teaching your kids to work all year round- leaving for one yom tov for the year isn't going to "ruin" them.   

And further more- the point of yomtov- was not to show your wife appreciation nor was it to teach your kids hard work.

Those are just added bonuses :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:40:52 PM
I'll just assume this post was completely facetious and be done. To say that those of us who oppose the hotels, sound jealous... It sounds like you don't understand life because money pays for anything that comes up. Your kids understand preparing for YT because they hear about it from their friends?! Wow.

I've said earlier that we have stayed home many times so my kids do understand. But even if I didn't, does understanding always require doing? It's not rocket science.

Have you gone away for Pesach and decided that staying home is better for the kids or are you staying home because you cannot afford to go away and are now trying to level the playing field?

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 05:42:19 PM
I've said earlier that we have stayed home many times so my kids do understand. But even if I didn't, does understanding always require doing? It's not rocket science.

Have you gone away for Pesach and decided that staying home is better for the kids or are you staying home because you cannot afford to go away and are now trying to level the playing field?
My parents told me what it was like to go to hotels for pesach so I get what it's all about.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 05:42:51 PM
I've said earlier that we have stayed home many times so my kids do understand. But even if I didn't, does understanding always require doing? It's not rocket science.
A lot of things are not rocket science but there is no substitute for hands on experience.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 05:43:01 PM
I'll just assume this post was completely facetious and be done. To say that those of us who oppose the hotels, sound jealous... It sounds like you don't understand life because money pays for anything that comes up. Your kids understand preparing for YT because they hear about it from their friends?! Wow.
+1

It was nebech not facetious. Money pays for everything. Of course I'm jealous that i cant lay back and let someone else do the hard work. But I'm also grateful that I can and do contribute. Not only my wife works hard I do too. And when you sit down to the seder with a feeling of accomplishment, there is nothing like it. I cannot imagine what it would be like sitting down after having written that check or swiped that card and not having lifted a finger in preparation for yom tov. I would probably be sick to my stomach. Thats subjective. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 05:44:09 PM
A lot of things are not rocket science but there is no substitute for hands on experience.
And the Goy gets the win!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 04, 2017, 05:44:42 PM
Quote from: hvaces42 ilink=topic=76224.msg1711285#msg1711285 date=1491339561
Kashrus is a huge issue. I would venture a guess that most programs, even the best hechsheirim, end up having at least one major issue over yom tov. I've spoken to many head mashgichim about this.
IME, kashrus needs to be split in to two categories.
1. Basic kashrus (treif venue, kashering, basar bchalav, treif, chometz, etc.)
2. Hilchos shabbos & Yom tov

In my years of experience any hotel that has kashrus concerns with the first category has a lousy hashgacha with poor planning , lack of cooperation, and not enough mashgichim.
On the other hand I would say that even the best kashrus at hotels use some kilos in terms of Hilchos shabbos and YT
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:46:12 PM
I've said earlier that we have stayed home many times so my kids do understand. But even if I didn't, does understanding always require doing? It's not rocket science.

Have you gone away for Pesach and decided that staying home is better for the kids or are you staying home because you cannot afford to go away and are now trying to level the playing field?

You seem very defensive. I think both sides need to take an understanding of the other side.


 And no I'll argue here that if you never had to make Pesach than even someone explaining it to you won't really give you even close to the  full effect of what it really entails.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Eliyohu on April 04, 2017, 05:47:12 PM
My parents told me what it was like to go to hotels for pesach so I get what it's all about.
Same here but I was still jealous of my freinds who went... as @JTZ said so eloquently ...
A lot of things are not rocket science but there is no substitute for hands on experience.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:47:34 PM
+1

It was nebech not facetious. Money pays for everything. Of course I'm jealous that i cant lay back and let someone else do the hard work. But I'm also grateful that I can and do contribute. Not only my wife works hard I do too. And when you sit down to the seder with a feeling of accomplishment, there is nothing like it. I cannot imagine what it would be like sitting down after having written that check or swiped that card and not having lifted a finger in preparation for yom tov. I would probably be sick to my stomach. Thats subjective.

That being said, can you appreciate how someone else might be ok and even happy to not have to do the work and sit down to  meal prepared for them and still have a beautiful meaningful seder?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:48:02 PM
A lot of things are not rocket science but there is no substitute for hands on experience.

How many years is sufficient to gain the required hands on experience?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 05:48:34 PM
I think most of you are missing what I and a couple of others had mentioned that there is a very wide range of pesach programs. The over-the-top ones are exactly that and I have a feeling that many here are considering them all to be that way. Many are not. Even those are not for are not for everyone but are not the way some here are describing them. Plenty of gashmius but mostly in the food department.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 04, 2017, 05:48:43 PM
I think you should start getting the whole fish at the market so your kids can identify what makes it kosher as well
when I learned nikkur I used to bring home the "treif" skirt steaks, hanger steaks, and 12th rib which that particular hashgacha didn't allow. I was menaker and moleiach them at home with my kids. When we did nikkur on a whole rosh keves , now that was quite am experience for her.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:48:54 PM
+1

It was nebech not facetious. Money pays for everything. Of course I'm jealous that i cant lay back and let someone else do the hard work. But I'm also grateful that I can and do contribute. Not only my wife works hard I do too. And when you sit down to the seder with a feeling of accomplishment, there is nothing like it. I cannot imagine what it would be like sitting down after having written that check or swiped that card and not having lifted a finger in preparation for yom tov. I would probably be sick to my stomach. Thats subjective.

I hope you don't have any cleaning help. That would take away from your sense of satisfaction?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 05:51:43 PM
I hope you don't have any cleaning help. That would take away from your sense of satisfaction?
You clearly missed the boat.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 05:52:08 PM
You seem very defensive. I think both sides need to take an understanding of the other side.


 And no I'll argue here that if you never had to make Pesach than even someone explaining it to you won't really give you even close to the  full effect of what it really entails.

Of course I'm defensive- my choice is being attacked as lacking in so many areas.

Again, I've stayed home many, many times while those attacking my choice have only seen one side. I've seen both. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 05:52:11 PM
when I learned nikkur I used to bring home the "treif" skirt steaks, hanger steaks, and 12th rib which that particular hashgacha didn't allow. I was menaker and moleiach them at home with my kids. When we did nikkur on a whole rosh keves , now that was quite am experience for her.

Chol hamoed in chavat maon, doing shechita and nikkur on a lamb MMMMMMMMMMMMMM
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 05:52:26 PM
Stinks to have to fly on a plane to Israel.
Was so much more meaningful to spend a year to get there via horse. Nowadays you just swipe your cards and your kids will have no appreciation for the place.
Sad!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 05:53:04 PM
That being said, can you appreciate how someone else might be ok and even happy to not have to do the work and sit down to  meal prepared for them and still have a beautiful meaningful seder?
Nahama dchisufa
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 05:53:25 PM
+1

It was nebech not facetious. Money pays for everything. Of course I'm jealous that i cant lay back and let someone else do the hard work. But I'm also grateful that I can and do contribute. Not only my wife works hard I do too. And when you sit down to the seder with a feeling of accomplishment, there is nothing like it. I cannot imagine what it would be like sitting down after having written that check or swiped that card and not having lifted a finger in preparation for yom tov. I would probably be sick to my stomach. Thats subjective. 
How about going to parents/in-laws/children for pesach?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 05:53:29 PM
And the Goy gets the win!
It is not like I haven't seen this discussion before and I am not talking DDF.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:55:21 PM
Stinks to have to fly on a plane to Israel.
Was so much more meaningful to spend a year to get there via horse. Nowadays you just swipe your cards and your kids will have no appreciation for the place.
Sad!

+1


Again, this is great because it makes a point.



(On the other hand I Actually try to remember that people had to take a boat and it took forever whenever I'm flying Coach on a long flight. Makes me happy and more appreciative. :)

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 05:55:41 PM
How many years is sufficient to gain the required hands on experience?
It depends how much you want to learn about something. I am a true believer in the more times you do something the more you learn about it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 05:56:46 PM
Stinks to have to fly on a plane to Israel.
Was so much more meaningful to spend a year to get there via horse. Nowadays you just swipe your cards and your kids will have no appreciation for the place.
Sad!
There's a difference between assuming luxury is the norm and the times changing.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 05:57:17 PM
I always think about this when new technology comes out that people are against for Shabbos for example. That, at one point when we got electricity others before then felt the same way about those changes.

Everything has to be taken with an open mind.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 05:57:23 PM
Of course I'm defensive- my choice is being attacked as lacking in so many areas.

Again, I've stayed home many, many times while those attacking my choice have only seen one side. I've seen both. 
I agree-depending on the program. I have done both and would only go to a hotel if it was for whatever reason the only available option, but I can understand how for many there are reasons why that is the case.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 05:58:07 PM
There's a difference between assuming luxury is the norm and the times changing.
I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't healthy to go to a program every year.

But it's nice to give everyone a break now and then if you can swing it and if your minhagim allow for it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 05:58:14 PM
Stinks to have to fly on a plane to Israel.
Was so much more meaningful to spend a year to get there via horse. Nowadays you just swipe your cards and your kids will have no appreciation for the place.
Sad!

Maybe, but oleh regel was a huge yom tov back in the day. Imagine how crazy jerusalem was erev pesach ?

Do you read and internalize the text in the siddur after "korban pesach"

This year for the first time i'll bake matzos mitzvah, im excited
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 06:00:08 PM
Stinks to have to fly on a plane to Israel.
Was so much more meaningful to spend a year to get there via horse. Nowadays you just swipe your cards and your kids will have no appreciation for the place.
Sad!
Please dont equate visiting Eretz Yisrael with preparing for a yom tov.

Also, you're too young to appreciate that when you saw a Jew from Eretz Yisrael he was held in reverance. I'm talking 1970's, 1980's it was a distant place that has now become more accessible.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:00:56 PM
Also, you're too young to appreciate that when you saw a Jew from Eretz Yisrael he was held in reverance. I'm talking 1970's, 1980's it was a distant place that has now become more accessible.
Exactly. Times change. Some old feeling won't be felt anymore as they did in the day it took a boat ride to cross the Atlantic. Those days aren't coming back.
We also have electricity by our Seders. Judaism and our kids will survive this too.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:01:28 PM
I think few would argue that there isn't something special and different about putting in all the effort and having Pesach in your own home, or at a family members home and the feeling that comes with it.

If you choose this as your only way that you want to do Pesach then great!

But to argue that the other way is "wrong" because it's different seems silly to me.
What about the feeling about being with so many yidden and many times different types of yidden and all celebrating Yom Tov together?
What about your kids seeing other families doing things a little differently, dressed a little differently, singing a little differently and all celebrating together?

Like all things there are plus and minuses to all.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 06:01:47 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't healthy to go to a program every year.

But it's nice to give everyone a break now and then if you can swing it and if your minhagim allow for it.
Agreed! I just didn't think his approach to those that were opposed to the idea, was right.

There was an idea to start a Ben Pakua farm once upon a time, and the main reason it was looked down upon, was because it would take many pieces out of our religion. A big part of our religion is built on customs and mesora.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:02:04 PM
Like all things there are plus and minuses to all.
+1K
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:02:24 PM
While I myself am not a hotel person I don't think you "need to make your wife work" just to be able to show her appreciation.
+1K.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 06:02:50 PM
I don't think anyone is arguing that it isn't healthy to go to a program every year.

But it's nice to give everyone a break now and then if you can swing it and if your minhagim allow for it.

But Dan! How do you show appreciation to your wife! If arthritis doesn't set in before the Mah Nishtana you won't get that spiritual high.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: alexk. on April 04, 2017, 06:03:40 PM
I think the problem is not only with the hotels, but rather the whole dilution of true Pesach values. Pesach has become a huge, huge, industry. It is almost nauseating to see the "new" products that look so much like chometz, taste like chometz etc... ( wither they really do or not is a different story). It is not only the hotels. The whole indulgence to have Pizza, Bagels, Doughnuts, etc...

I will give you an example of the problem with all of this:

Close to 20 years ago I remember going to a Chol Hamoed arcade venue of where I saw Frum kids buying Coke from the soda machine. It was clearly not Kosher L'Pesach. But why should the think twice? Coke is on their table at the Seder after all! It is for this reason I will only buy the less desirable Kosher brands of Soda on Pesach. This was 20 years ago.

I know that there was talk many years ago that Entenmann's almost had a deal with a Kosher Bakery to label Pesach Cakes for them. Imagine if there were Kosher L'Pesach Entenmann's???

Do we really need Pizza and Doughnuts? What happens when they perfect it and the Pizza looks and tastes like Pizza? Will we have a whole generation that just remembers eating Pizza and Doughnuts on Pesach?

I know the Pizza and Doughnuts are extreme examples, but the whole yom tov of Pesach is about creating limitations, if you look in Seforim. I am not saying I don't buy products, but at least your family should know that on Pesach we don't need every type of indulgence.

However, once you go to a Hotel, you are most likely being served every type of indulgence; at least that is the impression of those who do not go...

If you stay home, at least there is a chance.

Some people need the hotel for various reasons ( no time to prepare, elderly, not capable of preparing, don't have room for the whole family, etc...) but I just can't condone it for the mainstream.
It is a slippery slope... My 2 cents...
   
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:03:49 PM
But Dan! How do you show appreciation to your wife! If arthritis doesn't set in before the Mah Nishtana you won't get that spiritual high.
Somehow, someway, I'll find a way.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 06:04:08 PM
But Dan! How do you show appreciation to your wife! If arthritis doesn't set in before the Mah Nishtana you won't get that spiritual high.
Missed another boat, they don't run all night you know...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Boruch999 on April 04, 2017, 06:04:30 PM
Stinks to have to fly on a plane to Israel.
Was so much more meaningful to spend a year to get there via horse. Nowadays you just swipe your cards and your kids will have no appreciation for the place.
Sad!

You have a horse that can swim the Atlantic in a year? Wow!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:04:36 PM
Exactly. Times change. Some old feeling won't be felt anymore as they did in the day it took a boat ride to cross the Atlantic. Those days aren't coming back.
We also have electricity by our Seders. Judaism and our kids will survive this too.

I do think as time goes on, especially at how fast the world is changing that without some effort from parents kids can end up missing out in being happy, understanding, appreciative individuals.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 06:04:49 PM
I think the problem is not only with the hotels, but rather the whole dilution of true Pesach values. Pesach has become a huge, huge, industry. It is almost nauseating to see the "new" products that look so much like chometz, taste like chometz etc... ( wither they really do or not is a different story). It is not only the hotels. The whole indulgence to have Pizza, Bagels, Doughnuts, etc...

I will give you an example of the problem with all of this:

Close to 20 years ago I remember going to a Chol Hamoed arcade venue of where I saw Frum kids buying Coke from the soda machine. It was clearly not Kosher L'Pesach. But why should the think twice? Coke is on their table at the Seder after all! It is for this reason I will only buy the less desirable Kosher brands of Soda on Pesach. This was 20 years ago.

I know that there was talk many years ago that Entenmann's almost had a deal with a Kosher Bakery to label Pesach Cakes for them. Imagine if there were Kosher L'Pesach Entenmann's???

Do we really need Pizza and Doughnuts? What happens when they perfect it and the Pizza looks and tastes like Pizza? Will we have a whole generation that just remembers eating Pizza and Doughnuts on Pesach?

I know the Pizza and Doughnuts are extreme examples, but the whole yom tov of Pesach is about creating limitations, if you look in Seforim. I am not saying I don't buy products, but at least your family should know that on Pesach we don't need every type of indulgence.

However, once you go to a Hotel, you are most likely being served every type of indulgence; at least that is the impression of those who do not go...

If you stay home, at least there is a chance.

Some people need the hotel for various reasons ( no time to prepare, elderly, not capable of preparing, don't have room for the whole family, etc...) but I just can't condone it for the mainstream.
It is a slippery slope... My 2 cents...
 

Can you afford to go away for Pesach?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 06:05:54 PM
I dont think cleaning for pesach was much of a thing in years by gone. Plus, ALL OF YOU will not do beskias chametz like the mishna says... which of you have at least 2 rows of wine barrels to search? im going to do it like the mishna at the winery ;)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:06:27 PM
I know the Pizza and Doughnuts are extreme examples, but the whole yom tov of Pesach is about creating limitations.   
I must have missed that halacha.

Yes, by nature things were limited in the past. But in times past there also wasn't frozen pizza and donuts in a box during the whole year. Does that mean kashrus by nature is about creating limitations or was that the nature of the beast at the time?
There are places today where kosher products are hard to find year round. Is that how it should be because it used to be like that?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 06:06:53 PM
Can you afford to go away for Pesach?
What is your obsession with peoples money?! We got it, you are super loaded and can go to a hotel for pesach. Some of us can and some of us can't. Some of us can but won't.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:07:11 PM
You have a horse that can swim the Atlantic in a year? Wow!
Russia≠US (except if you ask Trump :P )
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: alexk. on April 04, 2017, 06:08:24 PM
Yes I can. And some of my wife's family goes away. And my Brother-In-Law ( who goes) said to me last week: " There is going to be a whole generation that doesn't know what eating Matzah over a bag is ( his family Minhag, not mine). Clearly the Chinuch aspect is lost this way...

 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:09:25 PM
Yes I can. And some of my wife's family goes away. And my Brother-In-Law ( who goes) said to me last week: " There is going to be a whole generation that doesn't know what eating Matzah over a bag is ( his family Minhag, not mine). Clearly the Chinuch aspect is lost this way...
Why does going to a program inhibit the ability to eat over a bag?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 06:09:57 PM
What is your obsession with peoples money?! We got it, you are super loaded and can go to a hotel for pesach. Some of us can and some of us can't. Some of us can but won't.

Let me explain once again in a different way. If you cannot afford a Lamborghini don't tell me how you would never buy one and how you love when your Honda breaks down and you get your hands dirty fixing the car and showing your son how to do it.  Kapeesh?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 06:10:08 PM
Chakira did a whole article on matza in the past.  http://www.hakirah.org/Vol17Zivotofsky.pdf

Fascinating read but, Gebrokhts is a non issue if you knead. Matza used to be soft, matza was baked fresh EVERY DAY.

Screw pizza and donuts,  I dont eat that during the year, I want fresh baked laffa matza for my shwarma
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 06:11:46 PM
Also my host makes chumus, i'm eating it. I much rather eat kitniyot or laffa matza than the crap made these days
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: alexk. on April 04, 2017, 06:12:46 PM
I must have missed that halacha.

Yes, by nature things were limited in the past. But in times past there also wasn't frozen pizza and donuts in a box during the whole year. Does that mean kashrus by nature is about creating limitations or was that the nature of the beast at the time?
There are places today where kosher products are hard to find year round. Is that how it should be because it used to be like that?

I am talking Hashkafah not Halachah. Any Seforim that discuss the Hashkafik aspect of Pesach generally talk about this.

There is nothing Halachically wrong with putting a TV on a Shabbos Clock to watch your favorite team play. I don't think this was a halachic discussion...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:12:59 PM
I must have missed that halacha.

Yes, by nature things were limited in the past. But in times past there also wasn't frozen pizza and donuts in a box during the whole year. Does that mean kashrus by nature is about creating limitations or was that the nature of the beast at the time?
There are places today where kosher products are hard to find year round. Is that how it should be because it used to be like that?

This is all so much a hashkafa conversation.

It's great.

It should cause us all to really delve into what Pesach ( and YT And shabbas in general ) is all about. What it's supposed to be about.


At one point someone had to ask themselves, just because using a timer might be halachically permissible is it taking away from the feeling of Shabbos? Is taking away from what I believe Shabbos is supposed to be about?


What is Pesach?

Can Pesach really not be had if someone else cooks your meals?  You can choose to want things a certain way, you can feel that kids are missing out. You can be right about that.
But does that mean it's wrong?




Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:13:05 PM
Also my host makes chumus, i'm eating it. I much rather eat kitniyot or laffa matza than the crap made these days
Can always count on you to take this off the rails, Chevron ;)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 06:13:10 PM
You have a horse that can swim the Atlantic in a year? Wow!
Its only available with lifetime status. For the hamon am its a sea turtle.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 06:15:38 PM
I think eating matza in a bag is stupid and terrible chinuch.. gebrokhts is a chumra, stop going crazy over it. Chabad is machmir while aknowledging its not an issue.

Want chinuch ? take your kids to bake matza, let em sweat not some russian babushka's..
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:16:22 PM
Yes I can. And some of my wife's family goes away. And my Brother-In-Law ( who goes) said to me last week: " There is going to be a whole generation that doesn't know what eating Matzah over a bag is ( his family Minhag, not mine). Clearly the Chinuch aspect is lost this way...

If it's important to you, you can try to teach your kids x y and z.

The same way kids won't know what it's like to have to wait for film to be developed. Or better yet, most kids now will never know what it's like to have to stop and ask for directions.

You can choose to not give your kids a cell phone.
I actually hope when I get to that point I can somehow swing that.
And you can be right that kids will be 'losing' something by never having that experience.
But would you say it's wrong of the parent?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 06:17:57 PM
Also my host makes chumus, i'm eating it. I much rather eat kitniyot or laffa matza than the crap made these days
Hillel definitely had lamb schwarma in a laffa with charif.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 06:18:07 PM
Can always count on you to take this off the rails, Chevron ;)

Dan,
I was addressing how things evolve, comments about non pesach style food that is the frum norm are funny when you consider what was historically the norm is now assur.

If we ate kitniyot and soft fresh matza, we'd have none of this craziness (and far less gas in shull)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 06:20:05 PM
If it's important to you, you can try to teach your kids x y and z.

The same way kids won't know what it's like to have to wait for film to be developed. Or better yet, most kids now will never know what it's like to have to stop and ask for directions.

You can choose to not give your kids a cell phone.
I actually hope when I get to that point I can somehow swing that.
And you can be right that kids will be 'losing' something by never having that experience.
But would you say it's wrong of the parent?
I do agree with your statement, but there is a fine line between adapting to the times, and taking the tradition out of something. People ate their sedarim by candle/lamp light, not in spirit of YT but because that was how you lit a room up. We now use light bulbs, because times have changed. There is a difference here.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 04, 2017, 06:20:14 PM
Hillel definitely had lamb schwarma in a laffa with charif.

The Koreh
̣
 non-Proof
A logical place to start is with activities that take place at the seder. Be-
cause of a debate in the gemara (
Pesah
̣
im
 115a) as to how best to eat mat-
zah  and 
marror
,  the  conclusion  is  that  we  should  fulfill  both  opinions. 
Korekh,  the  making  of  a  sandwich  of  matzah  and  marror,
was  thus  in-
cluded in the
seder
. It has been suggested that the word “korekh” means
“roll  up,”  as  in  a  shwarma  sandwich,  with  soft,  laffa-like  matzah  rolled 
with the meat of the Korban Pesah
̣
3
 and the
marror
 inside, thus offering
incontrovertible proof that Hillel used soft matza. While that may be true,
korekh is not a definitive proof.
The  contemporary  practice  (e.g., 
Arukh  ha-Shulh
̣
an
  OH
̣
  475:7)  is  to 
surround  the 
marror
  with  matzah.  However,  not  everyone  understands 
korekh  that  way.  Rabbenu  H
̣
annanel  (
Pesah
̣
im
  115a)  and  the  Sefer  ha-
H
̣
inukh (21) describe the
marror
 wrapped over and surrounding the mat-
zah. The
Mishnat Ya‘akov
 (475) points out that this was possible only for
those who used leaves for marror, as opposed to many Ashkenazim who used  horseradish.
4
  Additionally,  even  the  initial  linguistic  assumption  is 
likely incorrect. While the root korekh is often used to mean “wrap,” it
can also have the meaning of “surround.” For example, a walled city is
called a “krach” because it is surrounded by a wall, and the hard binding
surrounding a book is a krikhah. Thus, korekh could involve surrounding
the
marror
  with  hard  matzah,  much  as  the  city  is  surrounded  by  a  hard 
wall. The haggadah section of korekh offers no proof one way or the other
as  to  the  kind  of  matzah  used.  Nonetheless,  the  following  proofs  will 
show that Talmudic-era matzah and bread were indeed soft and thus Tal-
mudic phrases such as “karikht rifta” for sitting down to eat a meal did in
fact probably mean to wrap a sandwich as is done with a laffa. 
3
      The      Tosefta      (
Pesah
̣
im
 2:14) implies that meat of the Korban Pesah
̣
 was included,
and that is what Rashi and the Rashbam say. Rambam seems to say otherwise.
See Taz (475:9) and Rabbi Menachem Kasher,
Hagadah Shelemah
, p. 169, n. 1.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 06:22:35 PM
If it's important to you, you can try to teach your kids x y and z.

You can choose to not give your kids a cell phone.
I actually hope when I get to that point I can somehow swing that.

Sounds like you have little ones. Trust me thats the least of yoir issues when they grow up.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:22:42 PM
I do agree with your statement, but there is a fine line between adapting to the times, and taking the tradition out of something. People ate their sedarim by candle/lamp light, not in spirit of YT but because that was how you lit a room up. We now use light bulbs, because times have changed. There is a difference here.
Do you agree with the following?

1. Someone could go to a Pesach hotel - (even one of the more $$ ones) and have a very meaningful Pesach?
2. Just because it's not what you think is ideal or what you choose to do that it's not wrong?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:23:58 PM
Sounds like you have little ones. Trust me thats the least of yoir issues when they grow up.

Lol  was just an ex. :)

We live in crazy times. I'm so glad I'm not a teenager these days. I feel like I just missed so many of the crazy things I would have had to deal with growing up.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mgarfin on April 04, 2017, 06:24:33 PM
There was something we always learned and teach our kids from Pesach.
This is something that in today's world is one of the biggest challenges to kids being taught on how to survive the world.

MODERATION

The limits imposed on our eating habits on Pesach have a huge effect on the upbringing of our children.
Today's kids' are brought up with having everything instantly. We have yet to see the effect this will have on society.

At a hotel, it's not possible to teach this. At home, it's at least possible.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 06:24:53 PM
Do you agree with the following?

1. Someone could go to a Pesach hotel - (even one of the more $$ ones) and have a very meaningful Pesach?
2. Just because it's not what you think is ideal or what you choose to do that it's not wrong?
100% I completely acknowledge that this is a personal feeling I have towards this idea and I do happen to share it with some others here. I have nothing against anyone who goes, nor would I judge them, but the argument I was having was with regards to the ones who seemed to put down those of us who were not fans of the idea.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 06:24:54 PM
Hillel definitely had lamb schwarma in a laffa with charif.
charif? Source?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 06:25:23 PM
This reminds me of the conversation I had with people who are debating whether the CPA exam or Bar exam is harder. I ask, have you taken both? The answer is almost always "no" but they are still sure of themselves.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 04, 2017, 06:26:06 PM
This reminds me of the conversation I had with people who are debating whether the CPA exam or Bar exam is harder. I ask, have you taken both? The answer is almost always "no" but they are still sure of themselves.
Maybe one of their parents took one ;)

Having been to both, I can say I don't think programs are ideal. But sometimes people need a break. The kids will survive.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 04, 2017, 06:28:06 PM
This reminds me of the conversation I had with people who are debating whether the CPA exam or Bar exam is harder. I ask, have you taken both? The answer is almost always "no" but they are still sure of themselves.
The difference here is, that we are dealing with facts here, not opinion. What we are arguing about, is how these facts effect us. And there is no one answer to that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:28:39 PM
100% I completely acknowledge that this is a personal feeling I have towards this idea and I do happen to share it with some others here. I have nothing against anyone who goes, nor would I judge them, but the argument I was having was with regards to the ones who seemed to put down those of us who were not fans of the idea.

 :)


Awesome.
Because IMO it would be silly for any one side or the other to completely disagree with opposite side.
There are good and bad to both. And if you can't appreciate what the other sides sees in what they choose to do and they can't appreciate why you choose what you do then I feel like someone isn't being honest with themselves.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 04, 2017, 06:28:43 PM
This reminds me of the conversation I had with people who are debating whether the CPA exam or Bar exam is harder. I ask, have you taken both? The answer is almost always "no" but they are still sure of themselves.
They heard from their friends and family.


Regarding teaching children, they are well aware of the costs of going away and cleaning work they are missing.  I remind them of the cost and their friends remind them of how hard they are working.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 04, 2017, 06:29:58 PM
This reminds me of the conversation I had with people who are debating whether the CPA exam or Bar exam is harder. I ask, have you taken both? The answer is almost always "no" but they are still sure of themselves.
Let me ask you this. Did you live through the depression? If not do you think you could fully understand it? Do you think you would better understand it by spending a week at some fancy hotel talking about it?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:31:45 PM
The difference here is, that we are dealing with facts here, not opinion. What we are arguing about, is how these facts effect us. And there is no one answer to that.

Hmm- I don't know that I'd say that all the arguments made were facts exactly.

  - Heck you could argue that showing your wife appreciation would BE TAKING her to a Pesach hotel.  :P
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: alexk. on April 04, 2017, 06:34:22 PM
100% I completely acknowledge that this is a personal feeling I have towards this idea and I do happen to share it with some others here. I have nothing against anyone who goes, nor would I judge them, but the argument I was having was with regards to the ones who seemed to put down those of us who were not fans of the idea.

Exactly the point. Not knocking those who need to go for whatever reason... You can have a very meaningful Pesach at a program, just don't tell me it can be equal to what "can" be had at home.

And if you don't believe that Pesach is about limitations, you certainly won't be able to understand the difference between being home vs. a hotel.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 06:35:27 PM
Hillel definitely had lamb schwarma in a laffa with charif.
-1
מר and חריף are two different things.

However, his was definitely the original schawarma.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 04, 2017, 06:37:21 PM
Back on topic here...

  Does anyone know if people have had an easy time making other plans?   And any word of how fast the money is going to be returned?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 04, 2017, 06:38:32 PM
Back on topic here...

How dare you?  :D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 04, 2017, 06:38:56 PM
charif? Source?
Marror... FTFM
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 04, 2017, 06:41:48 PM

If we ate kitniyot and soft fresh matza, we'd have none of this craziness (and far less gas in shull)

more beans = less gas?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 04, 2017, 06:45:33 PM
http://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=45083&alias=2-resorts-cancel-pesach-hotel
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 04, 2017, 06:53:40 PM
Marror... FTFM
Oh you mean lettuce......
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 06:57:51 PM
Back on topic here...

  Does anyone know if people have had an easy time making other plans?   And any word of how fast the money is going to be returned?

My heart goes out to the people and the program owner - I know both.  One friend is going to Venice. Others I don't know.  I hope it all works out for them. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Sport on April 04, 2017, 07:19:54 PM
My heart goes out to the people and the program owner - I know both.  One friend is going to Venice. Others I don't know.  I hope it all works out for them.
Do you know how many guests were booked with them?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 04, 2017, 07:24:27 PM
Do you know how many guests were booked with them?

Sorry I don't. I wouldn't consider it a small program though.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 04, 2017, 07:49:47 PM
Do you know how many guests were booked with them?
Think the website said they had just about 500 rooms.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 05, 2017, 01:21:38 PM
Somewhat relevant to the discussion is the following reminder:

(http://i.imgur.com/GogYbgo.png)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: hvaces42 on April 05, 2017, 01:50:38 PM
Somewhat relevant to the discussion is the following reminder:
Beung a torah true jew...hmmmm...seems like hotels are included in that. So whats the relevance?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 05, 2017, 03:34:13 PM
Somewhat relevant to the discussion is the following reminder:

(http://i.imgur.com/GogYbgo.png)

Methinks you're reading it wrong. It definitely (IMHO) reads differently after the post 1988-sichos.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 05, 2017, 04:34:04 PM
Back on topic here...

  Does anyone know if people have had an easy time making other plans?   And any word of how fast the money is going to be returned?

Now that Yoely Lebovits decided to go to Orlando, I would think that a bunch of families will follow. However, there's no way they have room for everyone and I'm sure the Israeli guests won't make the trek.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 05, 2017, 05:28:31 PM
Beung a torah true jew...hmmmm...seems like hotels are included in that. So whats the relevance?

The relevance was to posts like

...
I myself also think that there is something distasteful IN GENERAL to this whole idea of what Pesach hotels have become. But I think it's  a problem in America in general with the chase for luxury in extreme.  And when you combine that with the idea of YomTov it can sometimes leave you with a bad taste.

...
I think the issue I have is more with our GENERAL focus of things that shouldn't be our main focus and this 'chase' for bigger, better, nicer that plagues our society at large.  This is just one example of where we see it.   So you have people looking at all the ads feeling like this is all wrong.

And others expressing similar feelings/opinions (including some of my posts on this thread).
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 05, 2017, 05:29:08 PM
Methinks you're reading it wrong. It definitely (IMHO) reads differently after the post 1988-sichos.

What do you mean?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 06, 2017, 10:21:50 AM
Group accuses Hilton of ruining Passover plans
one family paid $230,000 to bring all their kin on the April trip meant to include guest speakers, rabbis, a kids’ camp and entertainers.
http://pagesix.com/2017/04/05/organizers-sue-hilton-for-canceling-1m-passover-getaway/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chulent613 on April 06, 2017, 10:23:13 AM
(http://)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 06, 2017, 03:21:01 PM
@KolHaolam: CALIFORNIA: Hilton hotel in San Diego cancels Pesach program for 700 guests organized by Prime Grill from NY, despite $1 million deposit.

Omg
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cholent on April 06, 2017, 03:21:49 PM
Old news.cancellation happened a while ago
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aryeh1 on April 06, 2017, 03:27:43 PM
Old news.cancellation happened a while ago
It was just posted on kol halom
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cholent on April 06, 2017, 03:29:53 PM
It was just posted on kol halom
Probably because of the lawsuit that was just filed over this (actually arbitration)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shmoe joe on April 07, 2017, 12:48:46 AM
Old news.cancellation happened a while ago
It was written today in page six
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 07, 2017, 03:34:02 AM
It was written today in page six
Only because of the legal happening. Cancellation isn't new.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 07, 2017, 07:10:25 AM
Only because of the legal happening. Cancellation isn't new.

In other words, the news story is not that Prime Pesach Experience was cancelled, but that Hilton is being sued for cancelling an event with 700 guests and refusing to refund the deposit.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 07, 2017, 10:41:33 AM
Considering his other business dealings, odds are that they have good reason.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: JTZ on April 07, 2017, 11:09:41 AM
Is Hilton suing or being sued?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 07, 2017, 11:11:03 AM
Is Hilton suing or being sued?
Being sued.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 07, 2017, 11:11:33 AM
Considering his other business dealings, odds are that they have good reason.
link?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 07, 2017, 12:55:12 PM
Considering his other business dealings, odds are that they have good reason.
Unfortunately.

So is likely the reverse of the situation in Greece?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 07, 2017, 01:01:39 PM
Considering his other business dealings, odds are that they have good reason.
link?

http://www.primehospitalityny.com/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 07, 2017, 01:25:00 PM
link?


http://www.primehospitalityny.com/
i know what other stores he has. Dan made it sound like he did shady stuff that's what I wanted a link for
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 07, 2017, 01:30:57 PM
i know what other stores he has. Dan made it sound like he did shady stuff that's what I wanted a link for

Maybe I'm misreading, thought perhaps Dan was saying they are suing for good reason, considering their other businesses are run properly, then again, what do I know.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 07, 2017, 03:07:06 PM
http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/prime-battle-over-kosher-practices/
http://nypost.com/2016/01/08/lincoln-square-synagogue-in-feud-with-restaurant-owner/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: EJB on April 07, 2017, 03:23:48 PM
Considering his other business dealings, odds are that they have good reason.

+1. Surprised anyone still gives him money.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 07, 2017, 03:31:19 PM
+1. Surprised anyone still gives him money.
Question: if you think someone is not trustworthy or shady in his business dealings, would you feel comfortable eating in a food establishment that person owns or runs, and just trust the certificate?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: EJB on April 07, 2017, 03:32:36 PM
Question: if you think someone is not trustworthy or shady in his business dealings, would you feel comfortable eating in a food establishment that person owns or runs, and just trust the certificate?

I probably would eat in his restaurant if the kashrus agency trusts it enough to issue a certificate. But I wouldn't trust him with $20k to run a pesach program.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 07, 2017, 03:33:25 PM
This idea was just discussed here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=2853.0)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 07, 2017, 05:12:32 PM
This idea was just discussed here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=2853.0)
Approximately how far down? Or do I have to read through the entire thread?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 07, 2017, 05:16:52 PM
Approximately how far down? Or do I have to read through the entire thread?
Lol sorry. The last discussion in the thread was regarding the values of a restaurant owner.
ETA: This (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=2853.msg1712147.msg#1712147) is where it's starts.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 07, 2017, 05:40:15 PM

Lol sorry. The last discussion in the thread was regarding the values of a restaurant owner.
ETA: This (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=2853.msg1712147.msg#1712147) is where it's starts.
From what I read so far, I think that might be a different discussion.

Possibly a misguided, פארלארענע נשמה, in that situation. Here we're talking possible dishonesty. נאמנות is of utmost importance when it comes to Kashrus.

I personally avoid Kind bars (I mention this because I saw that Dan compared that situation to Kind, though I think it is a little different) due to where the owner puts his profits (wish I could afford to do the same with Amazon, but that's just too hard to avoid), but I would be comfortable with the Kashrus being up to purported standards.

However, if I felt a person who runs a kitchen is shady or dishonest, I am not sure any Kashrus agency can outsmart such a person, if they decided to cheat on Kashrus.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 07, 2017, 05:47:52 PM
No big loss, was never a fan of TPG anyway.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Joe4007 on April 07, 2017, 06:01:13 PM
No big loss, was never a fan of TPG anyway.
Pun intended
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 07, 2017, 06:39:38 PM
No big loss, was never a fan of TPG anyway.
so you wouldn't eat there?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 07, 2017, 06:40:39 PM
so you wouldn't eat there?
If it was good I'd have a tougher decision to make ;)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 07, 2017, 06:41:52 PM
From what I read so far, I think that might be a different discussion.

Possibly a misguided, פארלארענע נשמה, in that situation. Here we're talking possible dishonesty. נאמנות is of utmost importance when it comes to Kashrus.

I personally avoid Kind bars (I mention this because I saw that Dan compared that situation to Kind, though I think it is a little different) due to where the owner puts his profits (wish I could afford to do the same with Amazon, but that's just too hard to avoid), but I would be comfortable with the Kashrus being up to purported standards.

However, if I felt a person who runs a kitchen is shady or dishonest, I am not sure any Kashrus agency can outsmart such a person, if they decided to cheat on Kashrus.
I hear your point. I was referring more to the concept of eating/not eating at a place because of the owners beliefs or practices. But when it comes to specifics, dishonesty is very different than the case discussed there.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 10, 2017, 12:40:11 PM
Did Trump write that?
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoruel on April 10, 2017, 12:47:20 PM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?
Please let us know if they attend your classes.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 10, 2017, 12:51:08 PM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?
How about a Chag Sameach! And a Happy Passover :)

And spend all night talking about old problems instead of current ones..
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 10, 2017, 12:51:28 PM
Please let us know if they attend your classes.
ALol
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 10, 2017, 01:03:55 PM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?


Maybe a post by post discussion of this (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=72155.0) with them?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 10, 2017, 01:07:50 PM
Btw prime found a new hotel in Mexico
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: farmbochur on April 10, 2017, 01:22:46 PM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?
Ashame they can't find a vacation spot in the USA
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 10, 2017, 01:31:24 PM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?
pic?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 10, 2017, 01:31:50 PM
Ashame they can't find a vacation spot in the USA
Who cares?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 12, 2017, 08:17:45 AM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?

Curious if he churns
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: MeirS on April 12, 2017, 08:21:36 PM

Doesn't say much about the Rabbonim who do go, does it?

I think that a program that could allow for people to do their own cooking with their own food, would by definition cater to a different kind of crowd, and have a different kind of atmosphere, but this is pure speculation.

I know of a rov/speaker who would go to these programs and part of his deal was that they provided a small kitchen and a private cook to cook for his family.
I cannot and will not judge anyone else (for any price  :) )

On that note, here's a nice piece someone sent me yesterday via Whatsapp:

ר' לייבל שיינין הרב החסידי של דאקשיץ לא היתה דרכו בנשיאת דרשות, אבל בשבת הגדול נהוג שהרב נושא דרשה, עלה על הבימה ואמר: כתוב במשנה שכל מקום שאין מכניסים בו חמץ אין צריך בדיקה. אף אחד לא הכניס אצל חברו חמץ ואין לו מה לחפש אצל זולתו חמץ וירד מהבימה.
That wasn't the whole derosho but a most memorable part of it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: MeirS on April 12, 2017, 08:27:02 PM


That wasn't the whole derosho but a most memorable part of it.


Part of an article written in Yiddish by someone who grew up in the Shtetel where Reb Leib was Rov.

Quote from: Di Yiddishe Heim
ר’ לייב איז יענעם שבת הגדול אַרויף אויף דער בימה, מיט אַ טלית אויף די אַקסלען, און אָן קיינע הכנות און הקדמות אָנגעפאַנגען צו זאָגען אויף גיך די דינים פון הגעלה און ליבון, ווי צו כשרן די כלים אויף פּסח. וועלכע כלים מען דאַרף אויסברענען און וועלכע ס’איז גענוג אָפּצוטונקען אין דעם זודיקן קעסל וואָס האָט פאַר פּסח געקאָכט אין דער טהרה-שטיבל לעבן דער בערעזינע.

מיטאַמאָל האָט ער אינמיטן אָפּגעהאַקט די רייד, און נאָך אַ קורצער הפסקה פון עטליכע מינוט, האָט ער צוגעמאַכט די אויגן, ווי ביים חזרן חסידות, און אָנגעפאַנגן צו זאָגן:

- רבותי, אין דער ערשטער משנה פון פּסחים שטייט “כל מקום שאין מכניסין בו חמץ, אין צריך בדיקה”... ביי יענעם האָט מען גאָרניט אַריינגעלייגט, דאַרף מען ביי יענעם ניט בודק חמץ זיין; חמץ דאַרף מען זוכן ביי זיך...

ער האָט נאָך עטליכע מינוט גערעדט וועגן דער סימבאָלישער באַדייט פון חמץ און ביעור חמץ, פון אויסזוכן דעם רע און אים מבער זיין, אָבער איז גלייך ווידער צוריקגעקומען צו דער ערשטער משנה און פאַרענדיקט די דרשה.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 13, 2017, 01:31:29 AM
@Dan, how was the Seder with the Kushners?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: harrym on April 13, 2017, 08:38:19 AM
Jared and Ivanka are here.
Any messages to pass on?
https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/obama-should-pardon-this-iowa-kosher-food-executive-1480278930
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 13, 2017, 09:27:06 AM
https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/obama-should-pardon-this-iowa-kosher-food-executive-1480278930

+1
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CS1 on April 13, 2017, 10:00:12 AM
https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/obama-should-pardon-this-iowa-kosher-food-executive-1480278930
good idea to introduce into their ears
+100
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 13, 2017, 06:22:40 PM
http://jewishinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/IMG_8906-3.jpg
Matzo and cream cheese. Keeping it simple
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: m.m. on April 13, 2017, 06:39:16 PM
https://www.google.co.il/amp/www.wsj.com/amp/articles/obama-should-pardon-this-iowa-kosher-food-executive-1480278930
+1000
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 13, 2017, 07:20:33 PM
http://jewishinsider.com/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/IMG_8906-3.jpg
Matzo and cream cheese. Keeping it simple
She should have something like this for her kids(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170413/1e9fe1a5e317508b9a8550dd74192d86.jpg)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mgarfin on April 14, 2017, 12:10:44 PM
Do hotels serve matzah on Erev Pesach? is it egg matzah?

http://jewishinsider.com/11255/where-in-the-world-are-jared-ivanka-for-passover-canada/img_8906-3/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sillypainter on April 14, 2017, 12:45:08 PM
Do hotels serve matzah on Erev Pesach? is it egg matzah?

http://jewishinsider.com/11255/where-in-the-world-are-jared-ivanka-for-passover-canada/img_8906-3/

I have the same question. It's asur to eat matzoh erev Pesach.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 14, 2017, 01:15:19 PM
I have the same question. It's asur to eat matzoh erev Pesach.
Assur is a strong word.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sillypainter on April 14, 2017, 01:20:22 PM
Assur is a strong word.

See tosfos expressing even worse......
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 14, 2017, 01:23:08 PM
Assur is a strong word.
And comes from the RMA
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/9228da1f01976f056dce184e2b24ecf9.png)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: bermo on April 14, 2017, 01:23:28 PM
Assur is a strong word.
Do you know what the punishment for eating matzoh on erev pesach according to the rambam?
I would think it's fine to say that it's asur.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: bermo on April 14, 2017, 01:25:01 PM
And comes from the RMA
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/9228da1f01976f056dce184e2b24ecf9.png)
It's also a rosh and ירושלמי
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 14, 2017, 01:26:07 PM
The work of "matza" is not interpreted the same by all
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: jye on April 14, 2017, 01:33:09 PM
Do hotels serve matzah on Erev Pesach? is it egg matzah?

http://jewishinsider.com/11255/where-in-the-world-are-jared-ivanka-for-passover-canada/img_8906-3/

Expectations are very high over here. Correct me if I am mistaken but as far as I understand many many programs do not have (fully) separate swimming etc.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 11:42:33 AM
It seems a hotel in Cancun is not letting Pesach guests check out and is forcing them to stay in Mexico until the Pesach program manager pays his bill. He fled in the middle of the prior night. See article: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1258004/some-pesach-hotels-cancelled-some-wont-let-the-guests-leave.html
seems like pesach programs are having a rough year!
maybe people will finally stay home for pesach!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 20, 2017, 11:52:49 AM
Assur is a strong word.

Strong facepalm.

Everything is muttar. You have to understand....
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 11:58:07 AM
It seems a hotel in Cancun is not letting Pesach guests check out and is forcing them to stay in Mexico until the Pesach program manager pays his bill. He fled in the middle of the prior night. See article: http://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/general/1258004/some-pesach-hotels-cancelled-some-wont-let-the-guests-leave.html
seems like pesach programs are having a rough year!
maybe people will finally stay home for pesach!

I was on that program. Disaster!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 11:59:55 AM
I was on that program. Disaster!
And how exactly did they hold you against your will ?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 12:03:30 PM
I was on that program. Disaster!
More details please.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 20, 2017, 12:06:20 PM
More details please.

DDMS post please.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 20, 2017, 12:14:00 PM
Isn't it time for a trip adviser type site for Pesach programs?

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yzj on April 20, 2017, 12:16:41 PM
Taste of Mitzrayim! You can't get that staying at home!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 20, 2017, 12:17:32 PM
Isn't it time for a trip adviser type site for Pesach programs?

Long overdue. However, people are reluctant to say bad things.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 12:20:48 PM
DDMS post please.
Without details?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 12:25:40 PM
Taste of Mitzrayim! You can't get that staying at home!
I hear, it's almost a mitzvah to go to a hotel then, at the very least a minhag kasher. in the olden days the zeidas used to put the matzah over their shoulder to reenact yetzias mitzraim. Now we do even better ;D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 20, 2017, 12:27:10 PM
Without details?

I mean once you get details, obviously.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 20, 2017, 12:43:00 PM
Question: If you ran a pesach program and your guests were kidnapped by the hotel, and you hired a lawyer.   Would you hire what appears to be a one-man shop in Houston that does "Business, Real Estate, And Construction Legal Services"?


Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 12:48:39 PM
More details please.

Our family went for Chol Hamoed and the 2nd days. No one was at the airport for our transfer and it was an hour before we were serviced. At the checkpoint you needed to enter before entering the hotel, they again had no record of our reservation so they were not going to let us pass through. Finally we convinced them to take us through and we advised that we would work it our with the Passover Paradise team. When arriving at the hotel there was no representative or hospitality desk from PP. This place is huge btw. I just tried to check in like a regular guest and again, no record of a reservation for us. All along I was texting the program owner with all of these issue with hopes of help but he never responded. Ultimately I saw a guy I knew from NCSY who happen to be working for this program so I told him what had been going on and asked for help. They finally got us in a room 3 hours later and not at the building where the rooms were designated for the program. No joke - a 10 minutes walk from the lobby to the room. Room was for the most part how represented on the website however they were a little tired. Service to get towels, blankets, etc was horrible. Finally the guy we knew from the program came to our room to give us a schedule. We asked about the shul, dinner, etc. We were advised that dinner would be in a specialty restaurant that night but since we weren't there the night before to make a reservation you will have to eat in the family dining room. We had no problem with that at all. After mincha we met my husband and son in front of the family dining hall. When we opened the door there was no one there and no meal set up??? We walked over to the specialty restaurant and asked to be seated. We were told they had reservations for 197 ppl and if they seated us we woulds be displacing others. I agian saw the same guy I knew in the restaurant and explained the situation to him. He had no idea that there was no dinner at the family dining room and really did try to get us seated at this restaurant but to no avail. He told us to go to the BBQ as is it probably still open. It was closing when we got there, but my husband managed to grab a hot dog from the little that was left. My son, daughter and I ate nothing. Again all along I am texting the owner an receiving no responses. We decided to go check out the tea room and get something there before the evening activity which was supposed to be a really funny comedian. The tea room was a joke. Some bowls of craisins, nuts, gummy worms, etc. They did have gelato but no one was sure whether it was parve or milchigs and they had a coffee bar. On to the comedian......we were advised once seated that the comedian would come on a half hour late. We were exhausted, hungry and have been up since 3:00am so that we could catch our flight to Cancun. I decided to text the owner one last time and tell him about all of the incidents of the day and how profoundly dissapointed  we were. I figured by the time we woke up the next next we would have received a response but since not a word of response. We decided to cut our losses and leave the program which stunk for a million and one reasons! We changed our airline tickets and we were off. I decided to text the owner one last time to tell him we were leaving and and only then he responded and agreed to meet with me. I was a mensch but was very honest and express our profound dissatisfaction. He agreed with all I was saying. I asked him to please reverse the charge on my credit card. When we landed in Miami we received a text that they would in fact not reverse the charge and they thought we needed to give the program "more time" to prove itself. Of course, I paid with an Amex card and immediately disputed the charges.  We saw the writing on the wall and were not willing to roll the dice and hope they program got better. When we saw the blog this morning (and also received a letter from the owner as we were still on their e-mail list) we were less than shocked. So although I wasn't held against my will as hostage in the hotel, that was my experience. I apologize for the poor writing and misspellings but I was just trying to give you a sketch of our experience quickly.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 12:51:22 PM
Wow.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: B.D.Da'ehu on April 20, 2017, 12:54:54 PM
Sheesh what a story!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 12:55:15 PM
Wow.
Yup. BC Looked much better!

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 20, 2017, 12:56:08 PM
WOW
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 12:57:06 PM
Wow.

We are confident that Amex will reverse the charges, however I am out all of the points I used to get to and from Cancun as well as the extra points I had to use to change the tickets as the savers were unavailable.......any thoughts?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 20, 2017, 12:59:57 PM
Isn't it time for a trip adviser type site for Pesach programs?



Please someone do this ASAP

 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 20, 2017, 01:00:14 PM
We are confident that Amex will reverse the charges, however I am out all of the points I used to get to and from Cancun as well as the extra points I had to use to change the tickets as the savers were unavailable.......any thoughts?
What kind of travel insurance do you have? Either from Amex or purchased separately?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 01:02:28 PM
What kind of travel insurance do you have? Either from Amex or purchased separately?

None. Booked program with an Amex so that is my protection and booked the air on my own using points - what's the recourse?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 20, 2017, 01:03:52 PM
How much do they charge if you don't mind me asking?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 01:06:53 PM
How much do they charge if you don't mind me asking?

Enough - no metziah
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: stooges44 on April 20, 2017, 01:07:55 PM
What did you end up doing for yom tov then if you left?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 01:23:52 PM
Question: If you ran a pesach program and your guests were kidnapped by the hotel, and you hired a lawyer.   Would you hire what appears to be a one-man shop in Houston that does "Business, Real Estate, And Construction Legal Services"?
Also notice the writing/grammar/capitalization etc. in the letters (and I am guessing that this lawyer did study English in high-school  ;) unlike some DDFers). Sounds/looks as professional as the organizers of this (and many other) so-called Pesach programs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 01:30:56 PM
runnergirl, did you do any research on the group you were choosing ? Did you get any feedback beforehand ?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 01:32:38 PM
Please someone do this ASAP
I would give my 3 word trip advisor on Pesach programs, though I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak (or slack  ;D):

Just don't go!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cmey on April 20, 2017, 01:33:00 PM
 Just don't get it. Looking at the website, who in the world signs up for such a place, with that kind of entertainment, the various water activities, casino etc etc and says I want to make sure it's chassidishe shechitah nisht gebrokst etc.??
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 01:35:25 PM
runnergirl, did you do any research on the group you were choosing ? Did you get any feedback beforehand ?

Yes and met 2 ladies on the trip who came last year and were very happy and that's why they came back. They were very dissapointed this year.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 01:36:52 PM
Just don't get it. Looking at the website, who in the world signs up for such a place, with that kind of entertainment, the various water activities, casino etc etc and says I want to make sure it's chassidishe shechitah nisht gebrokst etc.??

Most programs are nisht gebrots. There weren't chassidishe ppl on this trip.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 01:39:58 PM
So the program director made off with millions and left the poor folk in Mexico out to dry? He should be caught and prosecuted.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 20, 2017, 01:41:33 PM
We were advised that dinner would be in a specialty restaurant that night but since we weren't there the night before to make a reservation you will have to eat in the family dining room. We had no problem with that at all. After mincha we met my husband and son in front of the family dining hall. When we opened the door there was no one there and no meal set up??? We walked over to the specialty restaurant and asked to be seated. We were told they had reservations for 197 ppl and if they seated us we woulds be displacing others. I agian saw the same guy I knew in the restaurant and explained the situation to him. He had no idea that there was no dinner at the family dining room and really did try to get us seated at this restaurant but to no avail. He told us to go to the BBQ as is it probably still open. It was closing when we got there, but my husband managed to grab a hot dog from the little that was left. My son, daughter and I ate nothing. Again all along I am texting the owner an receiving no responses. We decided to go check out the tea room and get something there before the evening activity which was supposed to be a really funny comedian. The tea room was a joke. Some bowls of craisins, nuts, gummy worms, etc. They did have gelato but no one was sure whether it was parve or milchigs and they had a coffee bar.

In the situations described, how can someone be sure the food is even minimally Kosher?

Please someone do this ASAP

This website being suggested would monetize by advertisements from some Pesach programs, and be beholden to those programs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 01:42:06 PM
Just don't get it. Looking at the website, who in the world signs up for such a place, with that kind of entertainment, the various water activities, casino etc etc and says I want to make sure it's chassidishe shechitah nisht gebrokst etc.??

I don't know what you call "nisht gebrokst", but the way we keep to it, I highly doubt that any hotel program would qualify.

Since it's quite relevant, I will copy/paste here something I received yesterday via WhatsApp on a Kashrus group. Unfortunately, this seems to be the norm rather than the exception.

סיפור טרי לצרכני הכשרות❗

הערב יצאנו לאירוע בר מצווה של קרובי משפחתי באולם בתל אביב, אנו איננו אוכלים בחוץ כלל מטעמי כשרות, ולא משנה באיזה כשרות המטבח, אז כמובן אנכי אשתי והילדים לא התקרבנו לאוכל,
אשתי חפצה לשתות משקה מסויים עם חותמת מקובלת על הבקבוק, מאחר ומדובר ביום אחר הפסח פניתי לשאול האם יש להם שטר מכירת חמץ, ואגב התעניינתי בעניין כשרות המאכלים במקום (כשבעלי האירוע הבטיחו הכל גלאט..
 במקום סעדו חרדים ודתיים שונים אשר אכלו את כל המזון המוגש ללא כל חשש, אחר שהבטיחו בעל האירוע ובעל האולם שהכל גלאט...)

הופנתי לבעל האולם שאמר לי "כל האוכל כאן הגיע מקייטרינג 'יואליס' בכשרות הרב לנדא, כולל הכלים והשתיה" ואף הוציא לי את הסמארטפון והראה לי תעודה מצולמת של הרב לנדא על הקייטרינג.
שאלתי היכן המשגיח, אמר לי, חבל, בדיוק היה כאן לחימומי האוכל והלך.
שאלתי "יש לכם תעודת כשרות של הרבנות? שטר מכירת חמץ? יש טלפון של המשגיח?"
אמר לי "אי אפשר להשיג אותו עכשיו בטלפון, אבל הכל טוב, אין לי תעודות כשרות כי המטבח כאן רק מחמם את האוכל..."

מאחר והכל היה נשמע מסריח מתחילה ועד סוף,
(איך ישלח קייטרינג בכשרות, כלים השייכים לקייטרינג בכשרות מהודרת לאולם ללא השגחה כלל? איך אין לבעל האולם תעודות משלוח וקבלות מהקייטרינג? איפה המשגיח ומהו מספרו למה מכסים זאת ממני? ראיתי שמגישים צ'יפס ושניצלים מבעבעים משמן היישר מתוך הצ'יפסרים במטבח.. ועוד ועוד..)

פתחתי בבירור מול כשרות הרב לנדא שפנו ליואליס שהכחיש מכל וכל ששיווק לאולם הנ"ל מזון באותו יום וכמובן שלא שלח משגיח לשם.

פניתי לכל החרדים במקום והוכחתי אותם אתם אוכלים מזון לא כשר כלל ומסתבר שגם חמץ שעבר עליו הפסח!!!
אז הם הפסיקו לאכול וקמו ממקומותיהם כעוסים ונעלבים על העוול שנעשה להם, אך למעשה מי שעשה להם עוול זה הם לעצמם ותו לא!!

מסקנא אחת היא: שנים שאני רואה ציבורים שלמים של פראיירים שנכנסים לאולמי שמחות ומסעדות וסומכים על אנשים עלומים שמראים להם תעודות עלומות ורצים היישר אל האוכל בתאווה.

הסיפור הנ"ל הוא עוד הוכחה למה יש להפסיק לסמוך על מה שמוכרים לכם!!
אם היו מביאים לכם בגד ללא תווית ומבטיחים לכם שהוא ממותג נחשק ומבקשים עליו תשלום הייתם מאמינים?? מה פתאום שבכשרות פתאום כולם נאמנים בשבילכם??
אל תהיו נאיבים!! גם כשמבטיחים לכם "כל המזון בכשרות הרב מחפוד או הרב לנדא או בדץ העדה החרדית" בד"כ אם אלו אנשים נאמנים הם מתכוונים רק לבשרים, כל תהליך העיבוד של המזון ושאר הפרודוקטים לא נעשו תחת כשרויות אלו אלא אם כן מופיעה תעודה עם תאריך עדכני ושם האולם ובעל השמחה, וחותמת מתנוססת עליה ומשגיחים נוכחים באולם שישיבו לשאלותיכם!
אם לא אז כבר יש כאן משהו שטעון בירור מקיף בדבר כשרות המזון המוגש לכם שם.


החותם בברכת התורה ובתקווה להתחזקות הרבים בענייני הכשרות
פנחס יוסף אקרב
055-668-3113
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 20, 2017, 01:43:37 PM
This website being suggested would monetize by advertisements from some Pesach programs, and be beholden to those programs.

And even an independent website would get threatening letters from lawyers.  A website owner wouldn't be able to afford the fight.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 01:44:37 PM
And even an independent website would get threatening letters from lawyers.  A website owner wouldn't be able to afford the fight.
Hence, use my post above in lieu. :D
I would give my 3 word trip advisor on Pesach programs, though I'm sure I'll get a lot of flak (or slack  ;D):

Just don't go!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 01:46:08 PM
In the situations described, how can someone be sure the food is even minimally Kosher?

This website being suggested would monetize by advertisements from some Pesach programs, and be beholden to those programs.

My son said the same thing while we were there.....you're right. We trust our fellow Jew when signing up for these programs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 01:49:03 PM
Heard from a friend of mine that worked as a mashgiach in a hotel a few years ago. Mind you this was a hotel that was run by an organization that supposedly raises money to keep or make ppl frum, i would assume a hotel like this would make sure to be very strict about the kashrus... He told me that after first days spent fighting with the director and the head mashgiach he called Rabbi Belsky and on chol hamoed Rabbi Belsky Made the organization re kasher the whole kitchen. Among the things going on, the workers were bringing in chometz, Beer and one of the chefs insisted on only using his own knife... Of course it was nisht gebrochts though
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: dvol on April 20, 2017, 01:55:07 PM
I was there.

The program was complete chaos and disorganization. I was there last year as well and while the food was awful, there was plenty of it and we had a nice time since the property is gorgeous and we enjoyed the crowd. This year was just ridiculous. Not enough food, no tea room, nobody to talk to about the multiple issues.

Regarding the article above, the story was that the hotel gave the program a bill of about $250k at the end of the program for services they claimed they provided (on top of what the program had already paid them) which the program claimed was inaccurate. The program owner slipped out of the hotel at 4AM after chag.

We checked out early since our flight was early afternoon and all was fine. About 1pm the hotel realized that the owner of the program had skipped town and so they started detaining guests and refusing to allow them to leave the property without paying extravagant amounts, from $5k-$35k per family...

The property is about a mile or more off the main road. There is a long road (about 5-10 minutes) once you get off the highway to the property. There are 3 security checkpoints along that road and they do not let you off the property without a pass from the hotel showing you are paid up in full.

As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 01:57:15 PM
My son said the same thing while we were there.....you're right. We trust our fellow Jew when signing up for these programs.

So is that why
my husband managed to grab a hot dog from the little that was left. My son, daughter and I ate nothing.

Any "Pesach Program" that is not in a place which is booked exclusively for the program, is probably a non-starter for any serious Kashrus supervising agency.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 01:58:33 PM
I was there.

The program was complete chaos and disorganization. I was there last year as well and while the food was awful, there was plenty of it and we had a nice time since the property is gorgeous and we enjoyed the crowd. This year was just ridiculous. Not enough food, no tea room, nobody to talk to about the multiple issues.

Regarding the article above, the story was that the hotel gave the program a bill of about $250k at the end of the program for services they claimed they provided (on top of what the program had already paid them) which the program claimed was inaccurate. The program owner slipped out of the hotel at 4AM after chag.

We checked out early since our flight was early afternoon and all was fine. About 1pm the hotel realized that the owner of the program had skipped town and so they started detaining guests and refusing to allow them to leave the property without paying extravagant amounts, from $5k-$35k per family...

The property is about a mile or more off the main road. There is a long road (about 5-10 minutes) once you get off the highway to the property. There are 3 security checkpoints along that road and they do not let you off the property without a pass from the hotel showing you are paid up in full.

As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.
Should've called Trump. He would've dropped a few MOAB's. :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 20, 2017, 01:58:50 PM
As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.

$250k in Amex chargebacks from multiple guests? Hopefully the hotel will lose their Amex Merchant Account.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 20, 2017, 01:59:36 PM
$250k in Amex chargebacks from multiple guests? Hopefully the hotel will lose their Amex Merchant Account.
Lol, I wonder if amex will honor all of those.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 02:02:54 PM
Lol, I wonder if amex will honor all of those.
My guess is that they will, it will be excellent business for them. All of those people will be die-hard AMEX users, and share the experience with their friends.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 02:03:17 PM
I was there.

The program was complete chaos and disorganization. I was there last year as well and while the food was awful, there was plenty of it and we had a nice time since the property is gorgeous and we enjoyed the crowd. This year was just ridiculous. Not enough food, no tea room, nobody to talk to about the multiple issues.

Regarding the article above, the story was that the hotel gave the program a bill of about $250k at the end of the program for services they claimed they provided (on top of what the program had already paid them) which the program claimed was inaccurate. The program owner slipped out of the hotel at 4AM after chag.

We checked out early since our flight was early afternoon and all was fine. About 1pm the hotel realized that the owner of the program had skipped town and so they started detaining guests and refusing to allow them to leave the property without paying extravagant amounts, from $5k-$35k per family...

The property is about a mile or more off the main road. There is a long road (about 5-10 minutes) once you get off the highway to the property. There are 3 security checkpoints along that road and they do not let you off the property without a pass from the hotel showing you are paid up in full.

As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.

Sorry we didn't get to meet up!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 02:03:46 PM
So is that why
Any "Pesach Program" that is not in a place which is booked exclusively for the program, is probably a non-starter for any serious Kashrus supervising agency.
which is a major reason that gateways didn't open their Florida "luxury" program this year.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 20, 2017, 02:08:03 PM
Was anyone at their other program, "Pardes Pesach" in San Diego?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 02:16:18 PM
which is a major reason that gateways didn't open their Florida "luxury" program this year.
Don't know about Kashrus agencies, but IMHO any program labeled as "luxury", probably wouldn't have Kashrus standards as their top priority (I am not saying they don't care about Kashrus, but I would guess that it's not top priority, but rather the "luxury" aspect is the top priority).
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 02:26:43 PM
In the situations described, how can someone be sure the food is even minimally Kosher?

This website being suggested would monetize by advertisements from some Pesach programs, and be beholden to those programs.
http://www.pesachhotelreviews.com/p/blog-page.html this kind of exists already although it doesn't seem to have any actual reviews on it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 02:30:11 PM
http://www.pesachhotelreviews.com/p/blog-page.html this kind of exists already although it doesn't seem to have any actual reviews on it.
I registered the domain PesachPrograms.com and will create a website as soon as time permits.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 02:30:48 PM
On another note, I have heard that some big rabonim that go to hotels as speakers bring their own food. I still find it strange since ppl look at big rav X and say if he's going it must be pretty kosher...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: dvol on April 20, 2017, 02:31:51 PM
Sorry we didn't get to meet up!

didn't sound like you were there long enough :P
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 02:36:03 PM
I registered the domain PesachPrograms.com and will create a website as soon as time permits.
Nice, now get some in-depth reviews
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 20, 2017, 02:37:22 PM
On another note, I have heard that some big rabonim that go to hotels as speakers bring their own food.

If not for the food, what draws them there? Do they get paid any significant $$ besides for their stay being covered?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 20, 2017, 02:37:51 PM
Nice, now get some in-depth reviews

Frum people never do real reviews because they're afraid it's lashon hara. That's why stories like this happen
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 02:39:08 PM
Frum people never do real reviews because they're afraid it's lashon hara. That's why stories like this happen
I'm sure he'll accept first person accounts from non jewish/frum employees in the kitchen as well
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 20, 2017, 02:42:52 PM
I registered the domain PesachPrograms.com and will create a website as soon as time permits.
Maybe try something more general, like Yom Tov program because there are other holidays which people go to hotels too
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 02:43:18 PM
Don't know about Kashrus agencies, but IMHO any program labeled as "luxury", probably wouldn't have Kashrus standards as their top priority (I am not saying they don't care about Kashrus, but I would guess that it's not top priority, but rather the "luxury" aspect is the top priority).
That's nonsense.
Trustworthy programs like KMR and POTM where I was this year advertise luxury and have strong kashrus standards.

POTM is run by a shliach at a Four Seasons and all of the Rabonim and mashgichim ate the program's regular food as well.

What boggles my mind is why anyone would have signed up to attend a Prime program or any program that is run by a sheister...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 02:43:39 PM
If not for the food, what draws them there? Do they get paid any significant $$ besides for their stay being covered?
I would assume they get paid, why else would you do it?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 02:44:53 PM
If not for the food, what draws them there? Do they get paid any significant $$ besides for their stay being covered?
Top-tier speakers do.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 02:45:37 PM
I would assume they get paid, why else would you do it?
A free all-inclusive suite for 10 days was good enough for me.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 02:47:25 PM
A free all-inclusive suite for 10 days was good enough for me.
All inclusive means the food, but if you are not gonna eat the food then I sure hope you get paid. But in your case seems like you got compensated pretty nicely for a speech, pretty good gig if you can get one :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 02:48:40 PM
Frum people never do real reviews because they're afraid it's lashon hara.
Not anymore. Just read through some of the restaurant & destination threads.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 20, 2017, 02:52:15 PM
I was there.

The program was complete chaos and disorganization. I was there last year as well and while the food was awful, there was plenty of it and we had a nice time since the property is gorgeous and we enjoyed the crowd. This year was just ridiculous. Not enough food, no tea room, nobody to talk to about the multiple issues.

Regarding the article above, the story was that the hotel gave the program a bill of about $250k at the end of the program for services they claimed they provided (on top of what the program had already paid them) which the program claimed was inaccurate. The program owner slipped out of the hotel at 4AM after chag.

We checked out early since our flight was early afternoon and all was fine. About 1pm the hotel realized that the owner of the program had skipped town and so they started detaining guests and refusing to allow them to leave the property without paying extravagant amounts, from $5k-$35k per family...

The property is about a mile or more off the main road. There is a long road (about 5-10 minutes) once you get off the highway to the property. There are 3 security checkpoints along that road and they do not let you off the property without a pass from the hotel showing you are paid up in full.

As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.

Omg
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 03:09:56 PM
That's nonsense.
Trustworthy programs like KMR and POTM where I was this year advertise luxury and have strong kashrus standards.
I never said they don't have strong Kashrus standards.

However, even with strong Kashrus standards, FWIU there are always compromises that not everyone would gladly accept if they were fully aware (talk to mashgichim). Especially when it comes to Pesach, while some things might just be "chumros", for someone who follows the Rebbe's directives, there seems to be very strict guidance regarding gebrokts. It is close to impossible to maintain that standard in a hotel where not everyone is aware and cares about it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 03:12:20 PM
for someone who follows the Rebbe's directives, there seems to be very strict guidance regarding gebrokts.
Once again you're full of assumptions. The mashgichim at POTM for example were all Chabad.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cmey on April 20, 2017, 03:20:37 PM
Once again you're full of assumptions. The mashgichim at POTM for example were all Chabad.

I know an Amazing Chabad Rabbi. I would eat in his house in a heartbeat. I  was in touch with him about a wedding where he was in charge of the caterer and the compromises he had to make were to the extent that I was unable to eat by the wedding and I don't have very exacting standards so I think it has a lot more to do with the venue then the person doing the hashgacha although there are some mashgichim who won't take a venue that isn't lichatchila in every aspect. for various reasons this Rabbi did not have a choice in the matter. It's easy to see a situation where even a good chabad shliach will have to end up stretching things kashrus wise when they majorly conflict with the venues image/ needs etc. sometimes there are intractable issues come up that you can't just walk away from once you've comitted.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 03:22:52 PM
I registered the domain PesachPrograms.com and will create a website as soon as time permits.
For someone who seems to have coined the term "Chumra" I'm surprised you are so quick to do this without thinking about lashon hara.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: runnergirl on April 20, 2017, 03:23:15 PM
Once again you're full of assumptions. The mashgichim at POTM for example were all Chabad.

In our case we just trusted. They were running 2 programs this year and did so last year as well. Most ppl are reputable. In this case they were unfortunately not. We went on KMR before and that was really top quality!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: avromie7 on April 20, 2017, 03:26:12 PM
I never said they don't have strong Kashrus standards.

However, even with strong Kashrus standards, FWIU there are always compromises that not everyone would gladly accept if they were fully aware (talk to mashgichim). Especially when it comes to Pesach, while some things might just be "chumros", for someone who follows the Rebbe's directives, there seems to be very strict guidance regarding gebrokts. It is close to impossible to maintain that standard in a hotel where not everyone is aware and cares about it.
As far as gebrokts, it's very simple, no matza or matza meal in the food. The only possible issue would be if you're worried that someone else is not makpid and you end up with the same plate or bowl that they used the day before for gebrokts.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 03:26:40 PM
I know an Amazing Chabad Rabbi. I would eat in his house in a heartbeat. I  was in touch with him about a wedding where he was in charge of the caterer and the compromises he had to make were to the extent that I was unable to eat by the wedding and I don't have very exacting standards so I think it has a lot more to do with the venue then the person doing the hashgacha although there are some mashgichim who won't take a venue that isn't lichatchila in every aspect. for various reasons this Rabbi did not have a choice in the matter. It's way to see a situation or even a good chabad shliach will have to end up stretching things kashrus wise when they majorly conflict with the venues image/ needs etc.

POTM is run by a shliach at a Four Seasons and all of the Rabonim and mashgichim ate the program's regular food as well.

When in SIN I asked the shliach if he eats at CB&TL and skipped it when he said he would not.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 03:27:01 PM
Anyone who goes on a program tends to obviously be biased about that programs "stellar kashrus reputation".
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 03:28:44 PM
Anyone who goes on a program tends to obviously be biased about that programs "stellar kashrus reputation".
+1 to each their own. If the Kashrus is your issue it may not be mine...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Amusch on April 20, 2017, 03:30:51 PM
Anyone who goes on a program tends to obviously be biased about that programs "stellar kashrus reputation".

+1 (and a "like")
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 03:31:30 PM
Heard from a friend of mine that worked as a mashgiach in a hotel a few years ago. Mind you this was a hotel that was run by an organization that supposedly raises money to keep or make ppl frum, i would assume a hotel like this would make sure to be very strict about the kashrus... He told me that after first days spent fighting with the director and the head mashgiach he called Rabbi Belsky and on chol hamoed Rabbi Belsky Made the organization re kasher the whole kitchen. Among the things going on, the workers were bringing in chometz, Beer and one of the chefs insisted on only using his own knife... Of course it was nisht gebrochts though
This story makes no sense. You can't kasher it on pesach.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mendy from lakewood on April 20, 2017, 03:35:15 PM
This story makes no sense. You can't kasher it on pesach.
why cant you?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cmey on April 20, 2017, 03:36:26 PM
When in SIN I asked the shliach if he eats at CB&TL and skipped it when he said he would not.

Your background in yeshiva and DD leads you to ask questions and not make assumptions. Unfortunately most people out there have never thought to even ask.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 03:40:10 PM
why cant you?
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/6f52e12426837c0183b6a02679905961.png)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 03:42:25 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/6f52e12426837c0183b6a02679905961.png)
Doesn't say you can't kasher just qualifies the statement that before yom tov you don't have to worry about ben yomo.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 03:42:29 PM
When in SIN I asked the shliach if he eats at CB&TL and skipped it when he said he would not.
Chabad seems to always have politics with the local establishments, was that the case here?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 20, 2017, 03:44:47 PM
As far as gebrokts, it's very simple, no matza or matza meal in the food. The only possible issue would be if you're worried that someone else is not makpid and you end up with the same plate or bowl that they used the day before for gebrokts.
Don't remember if this was a story or a joke, but I heard (a few years back) that there was a Pesach program that had a waiter walking around the dining hall serving soup.

Waiter: Gebrokts or non-Gebrokts?
Guest 1: non-Gebrokts please.
Waiter pours ladle of soup from serving pot into bowl.
Moves to next guest.

Waiter: Gebrokts or non-Gebrokts?
Guest 2: Gebrokts please.
Waiter scoops Matza ball from bottom of said serving pot into bowl, then pours ladle of soup over it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 03:44:55 PM
Doesn't say you can't kasher just qualifies the statement that before yom tov you don't have to worry about ben yomo.
:o Did you read in the box?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 03:46:22 PM
Chabad seems to always have politics with the local establishments, was that the case here?
I believe that it's under his hechsher.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 03:49:10 PM
:o Did you read in the box?
maybe they did libun or bought some new kelim, or followed whatever Rabbi Belsky told them to do. I'm not a posek but I do believe my friend who was involved with the story.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 03:51:39 PM
maybe they did libun or bought some new kelim, or followed whatever Rabbi Belsky told them to do. I'm not a posek but I do believe my friend who was involved with the story.
Libun is not possible for a significant portion of the equipment used. Neither is buying new a real option for much of it. There is something missing from this story.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 03:55:25 PM
Libun is not possible for a significant portion of the equipment used. Neither is buying new a real option for much of it. There is something missing from this story.
pretty sure libun is possible and it is how many mashgichim kasher. Big blow torch and all. easier than kashering sometimes. Either way i was not the posek on the case and there have been other mitigating factors to allow different kulos that were known to a posek who had shas and poskim on his fingertips as opposed to an am haaretz like me.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 03:58:21 PM
pretty sure libun is possible and it is how many mashgichim kasher. Big blow torch and all. easier than kashering sometimes. Either way i was not the posek on the case and there have been other mitigating factors to allow different kulos that were known to a posek who had shas and poskim on his fingertips as opposed to an am haaretz like me.
I didn't mean because of the volume but because things could get ruined by libun. Once something could get ruined by libun it doesn't help to try. THere may have been other mitigating factors. I am just saying there is more to the story here.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 20, 2017, 04:03:08 PM
I didn't mean because of the volume but because things could get ruined by libun. Once something could get ruined by libun it doesn't help to try. THere may have been other mitigating factors. I am just saying there is more to the story here.
http://www.ok.org/consumers/passover/the-koshering-of-pesach-hotels/ it definitely is a complicated process!
from the article
"Then the mashgichim trained in the use of blow torches begin to work. All the surfaces of an item require kosherizing and are heated to the correct temperature. Often the local fire department is notified in advance that this activity is taking place and may even be present to deal with the inevitable triggering of fire alarms. The grills and skillets need to be koshered with a glowing layer of hot coals. Glassware must be soaked in water for 24 hours, the water emptied and replaced. This process must be repeated twice more. Wooden surfaces such as butcher blocks must be sanded down. The dishwashers must be stripped down, meticulously cleaned and then the internal thermostat must be overridden (often with the assistance of a technician) so the cycle can be run with boiling water. During the koshering period, the entire mashgiach team generally works around the clock, all while dealing with the provisions that are arriving constantly and ensuring that they meet the OK kashrus standards."
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 20, 2017, 04:07:15 PM
For someone who seems to have coined the term "Chumra"

Sounds harsh to me...

#notasamod
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 04:10:07 PM
Sounds harsh to me...

#notasamod
It wasn't meant to be. I really need to use emojis more.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 04:11:02 PM
http://www.ok.org/consumers/passover/the-koshering-of-pesach-hotels/ it definitely is a complicated process!
from the article
"Then the mashgichim trained in the use of blow torches begin to work. All the surfaces of an item require kosherizing and are heated to the correct temperature. Often the local fire department is notified in advance that this activity is taking place and may even be present to deal with the inevitable triggering of fire alarms. The grills and skillets need to be koshered with a glowing layer of hot coals. Glassware must be soaked in water for 24 hours, the water emptied and replaced. This process must be repeated twice more. Wooden surfaces such as butcher blocks must be sanded down. The dishwashers must be stripped down, meticulously cleaned and then the internal thermostat must be overridden (often with the assistance of a technician) so the cycle can be run with boiling water. During the koshering period, the entire mashgiach team generally works around the clock, all while dealing with the provisions that are arriving constantly and ensuring that they meet the OK kashrus standards."
Yes there is definitely libun used for some parts of the kitchen but that does not mean that it can be done usining only libun. Also, blow torches are typically used for libun kal which is also questionable as to whether it can be done on Pesach. The Pri Megadim says not but I can see R' Belsky not following that psak when necessary due to some kashyos on it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chinagel on April 20, 2017, 04:14:57 PM
This story makes no sense. You can't kasher it on pesach.
just thinking, if its a goys keilim why cant you kasher it on pesach?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 04:15:01 PM
For someone who seems to have coined the term "Chumra" I'm surprised you are so quick to do this without thinking about lashon hara.
What assumptions are you making?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 04:17:00 PM
just thinking, if its a goys keilim why cant you kasher it on pesach?
How does that help?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 20, 2017, 04:19:15 PM
Chabad seems to always have politics with the local establishments, was that the case here?

I know, right? Everywhere you go Chabad is just destroying local business.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 04:20:30 PM
Yes there is definitely libun used for some parts of the kitchen but that does not mean that it can be done usining only libun. Also, blow torches are typically used for libun kal which is also questionable as to whether it can be done on Pesach. The Pri Megadim says not but I can see R' Belsky not following that psak when necessary due to some kashyos on it.
When I was a bochur, a friend offered me to come along (for pay) to help kasher a hotel in the Catskils for Pesach (under the OK).

At some point we took the pans that would go into the oven, and started to do libun (גמור). Needless to say, anything we tried doing this on was rendered useless! Some time into the job a upper level mashgiach came (IINM it might have been R' Dovid Steigman A"H) and said that as a matter of policy, no ליבון גמור should be done, as it is either not done properly, or it destroys equipment. ליבון קל is used in lieu of הגעלה, where that is appropriate.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 04:20:32 PM
I know, right? Everywhere you go Chabad is just destroying local business.
+1 that's why so many locations world wide only have Chabad, they've destroyed all other businesses
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 04:20:41 PM
I know, right? Everywhere you go Chabad is just destroying local business.
I don't recall saying that. Obviously if I did post that and forgot about it I would appreciate if you posted a link.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 04:21:40 PM
What assumptions are you making?
2 main ones. That all you post is true, and that you didn't ask a Rav if it's ok to open said site.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 04:25:27 PM
2 main ones. That all you post is true, and that you didn't ask a Rav if it's ok to open said site.
And I am assuming you never visited that url, nor did carefully read my posts upthread.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chinagel on April 20, 2017, 04:28:33 PM
How does that help?
assuming the problem is theres no bittul on pesach, a goys chometz should be able to become batel as theres no asa'an htorah birshuso
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 04:28:33 PM
And I am assuming you never visited that url, nor did carefully read my posts upthread.
I did but I possibly have reading comprehension issues.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 04:29:47 PM
I did but I possibly have reading comprehension issues.
You must have spent too much time studying English rather than Limudei Kodesh.  ;D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 04:37:20 PM
assuming the problem is theres no bittul on pesach, a goys chometz should be able to become batel as theres no asa'an htorah birshuso
What do those 2 have to do with each other?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 04:38:43 PM
Once again you're full of assumptions. The mashgichim at POTM for example were all Chabad.
Here you go again using labels.

What does that mean? What does that say?

I happened to be walking back from תהלוכה with someone whose son was there for the first days. I asked him whether his son would eat there. He answered that he assumes he did eat there but would rather not ask, and that this son makes sure to go for Pesach to high-end sedorim, and eats wherever he goes. He said that he has another son who will just go wherever needed, and will eat just minimal things (hard boiled eggs, etc.) or take food along for himself. This story seems to indicate a negative correlation between emphasis on luxury and kashrus scrupulousness. I try to avoid assumptions, but life experience does indicate something.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 04:42:26 PM
Here you go again using labels.

What does that mean? What does that say?

I happened to be walking back from תהלוכה with someone whose son was there for the first days. I asked him whether his son would eat there. He answered that he assumes he did eat there but would rather not ask, and that this son makes sure to go for Pesach to high-end sedorim, and eats wherever he goes. He said that he has another son who will just go wherever needed, and will eat just minimal things (hard boiled eggs, etc.) or take food along for himself. This story seems to indicate a negative correlation between emphasis on luxury and kashrus scrupulousness. I try to avoid assumptions, but life experience does indicate something.
What in the actual world? I know it's 4/20 and all, but c'mon.

You said that in programs the mashgichim won't care about gebroktz as much as Chabad would. I told you that in my program the mashgichim were all Lubavitchers who clearly do care about gebroktz, and you throw something about labels back at me.

Nobody is trying to convince you to go to a program. Perhaps you're so holy that you never eat out at all. More power to you. But I'm done here.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chinagel on April 20, 2017, 04:42:51 PM
What do those 2 have to do with each other?
im venturing a possibilty, the reason chametz isnt batel on pesach is because hatorah asa'an birshuso so it cant be batel. chometz of a goy which is not hatorah asa'an birshuso should be able to be batel and therefore you should be able to eat it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 04:43:18 PM
What in the actual world? I know it's 4/20 and all, but c'mon.

You said that in programs they won't care about gebroktz as much as Chabad would. I told you that in my program the mashgichim were Lubavitchers who clearly do care about gebroktz and you throw something about labels back at me.

I'm done here.
You seemed stresses, can I roll you one?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 20, 2017, 04:44:22 PM
You seemed stresses, can I roll you one?

Who gives the Hashgacha on it?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:44:33 PM
Here you go again using labels.

What does that mean? What does that say?

I happened to be walking back from תהלוכה with someone whose son was there for the first days. I asked him whether his son would eat there. He answered that he assumes he did eat there but would rather not ask, and that this son makes sure to go for Pesach to high-end sedorim, and eats wherever he goes. He said that he has another son who will just go wherever needed, and will eat just minimal things (hard boiled eggs, etc.) or take food along for himself. This story seems to indicate a negative correlation between emphasis on luxury and kashrus scrupulousness. I try to avoid assumptions, but life experience does indicate something.
A guy I was with on Pesach said he was once in CH for Pesach and someone in CH ate chometz, so he tries to no be in CH on Pesach. Therefore I try to not assume all CH eats chometz, but having heard that some do, I try to avoid being in CH for Pesach.

That's what I got from your post.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 04:45:11 PM
You seemed stresses, can I roll you one?
Haven't had such odd non-sequitur, hard to decipher the point of, holier-than-thou, circular logic responses since CBC in his feistier era before Chaikel suspended him.
I honestly don't know why I bother.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 04:45:12 PM
im venturing a possibilty, the reason chametz isnt batel on pesach is because hatorah asa'an birshuso so it cant be batel. chometz of a goy which is not hatorah asa'an birshuso should be able to be batel and therefore you should be able to eat it.
You are better off not making up your own reasons.
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/6f7ccc0b0da966c47bb129c5211908dd.png)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 04:47:20 PM
A guy I was with on Pesach said he was once in CH for Pesach and someone in CH ate chometz, so he tries to no be in CH on Pesach. Therefore I try to not assume all CH eats chometz, but having heard that some do, I try to avoid being in CH for Pesach.

That's what I got from your post.
I guess this must apply to you too:
I did but I possibly have reading comprehension issues.


You must have spent too much time studying English rather than Limudei Kodesh.  ;D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 20, 2017, 04:48:29 PM
A guy I was with on Pesach said he was once in CH for Pesach and someone in CH ate chometz, so he tries to no be in CH on Pesach. Therefore I try to not assume all CH eats chometz, but having heard that some do, I try to avoid being in CH for Pesach.

That's what I got from your post.
If one eats Chometz on Pesach, is one allowed to go on תהלוכה?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chinagel on April 20, 2017, 04:49:47 PM
You are better off not making up your own reasons.
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/6f7ccc0b0da966c47bb129c5211908dd.png)
thats for shehiya iinm. i am talking about it not being batel which the MB says (i forgot from who) is because hatora asa'an birshuso, i was venturing then that a goy's chometz can become batel on pesach
ETA: you're right, i must be mixing it up, possibly with chozeir venaiyor. however, even with the reasoning you qouted i still could see the possibility of being able to be mevatel a goy's chometz on pesach.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:51:53 PM
I guess this must apply to you too:
Do you understand how little sense your story makes? I know a very rich person who spends thousands of dollars on cleaning help and his house is more clean than someone who cleans it themselves.

Therefore rich people are generally more mehudar when it comes to cleaning for Pesach.

Are you being serious right now?

I gotta say a logical reasons LSAT course can teach more logic than decades of gemara apparently. Oh no wait that must be wrong, nothing will ever be gained from learning something secular.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: stooges44 on April 20, 2017, 04:53:48 PM
Haven't had such odd non-sequitur, hard to decipher the point of, holier-than-thou, circular logic responses since CBC in his feistier era before Chaikel suspended him.
I honestly don't know why I bother.

Now you're talking! Can't understand this meaningless back and forth either.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 20, 2017, 04:54:21 PM
If one eats Chometz on Pesach, is one allowed to go on תהלוכה?

If the chametz is masheke, and one had more than 4? No.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: jj1000 on April 20, 2017, 04:55:16 PM
If the chametz is masheke, and one had more than 4? No.
Under 4 and it's likely ok.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 20, 2017, 05:10:49 PM



I honestly don't know why I bother.

Probably the same reason that people go to pesach programs, the temptation is strong.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 05:20:19 PM
Here you go again using labels.

What does that mean? What does that say?

I happened to be walking back from תהלוכה with someone whose son was there for the first days. I asked him whether his son would eat there. He answered that he assumes he did eat there but would rather not ask, and that this son makes sure to go for Pesach to high-end sedorim, and eats wherever he goes. He said that he has another son who will just go wherever needed, and will eat just minimal things (hard boiled eggs, etc.) or take food along for himself. This story seems to indicate a negative correlation between emphasis on luxury and kashrus scrupulousness. I try to avoid assumptions, but life experience does indicate something.
I am not following the whole gebroks part of this conversation, but did you need a story to tell you that emphasis on luxuries has a negative correlation with religious observance (emphasis on the word emphasis very important here)? There are tons of gemaras etc which say that.

I gotta say a logical reasons LSAT course can teach more logic than decades of gemara apparently. Oh no wait that must be wrong, nothing will ever be gained from learning something secular.
Chas v'shalom on both parts. No LSAT review can teach logic better than gemara, although some may learn more logic from LSATs than they actually did from gemara. That would be the person's own fault.

The gemara itself says chochma bagoyim taamin.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 05:21:00 PM
Haven't had such odd non-sequitur, hard to decipher the point of, holier-than-thou, circular logic responses since CBC in his feistier era before Chaikel suspended him.
I honestly don't know why I bother.
Now you are the one bringing that incident up?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 05:26:08 PM
You said that in programs the mashgichim won't care about gebroktz as much as Chabad would. I told you that in my program the mashgichim were all Lubavitchers who clearly do care about gebroktz, and you throw something about labels back at me.

I don't believe I used any of those labels in my post that you seem to be responding to.

Did you actually ask the mashgichim about the standards of hashgacha (similar to what you did in SIN?) or did you just assume it's up to a certain standard because the mashgichim are "Chabad"? While many "traditional Chabad Pesach chumros" are just family traditions, and might have no real source or strong reasoning to be expected from, much less - imposed on, anyone (though many will strongly adhere to them), the details and the chumra of gebrokts is clearly elucidated in ספר המנהגים and in the Rebbe's הגדה של פסח - if one reads all the footnotes.

To paraphrase a something I posted upthread in Hebrew, some people seem to be more trusting and less questioning when it comes to kashrus, than they are in other trivial things.

Nobody is trying to convince you to go to a program. Perhaps you're so holy that you never eat out at all. More power to you. But I'm done here.
I don't think I've ever claimed to be, or thought I might be, holier than any other Jew.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: eli1571 on April 20, 2017, 05:32:21 PM
Chometz from before pesach can't be kashered, but if a goy uses your keilim with chometz on pesach, who said it can't be kashred ?
This story makes no sense. You can't kasher it on pesach.

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/6f52e12426837c0183b6a02679905961.png)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 05:36:04 PM
thats for shehiya iinm. i am talking about it not being batel which the MB says (i forgot from who) is because hatora asa'an birshuso, i was venturing then that a goy's chometz can become batel on pesach
ETA: you're right, i must be mixing it up, possibly with chozeir venaiyor. however, even with the reasoning you qouted i still could see the possibility of being able to be mevatel a goy's chometz on pesach.
I am pretty sure that the poskim do not differentiate as to who owns the chometz
Chometz from before pesach can't be kashered, but if a goy uses your keilim with chometz on pesach, who said it can't be kashred ?
That the din applies for something absorbed by the keilim on pesach is explicit in the poskim
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: eli1571 on April 20, 2017, 05:42:05 PM
I am pretty sure that the poskim do not differentiate as to who owns the chometzThat the din applies for something absorbed by the keilim on pesach is explicit in the poskim
Source ?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 20, 2017, 05:57:24 PM
Source ?
Regarding that there is isur mashehu on chometz of a goy one place it can be seen is 467:8 where it is clear that even a small amount of flour mixed into honey would be a problem.

Regarding mashehu which happened on pesach it is discussed in numerous cases such as where someone finds a kernel in his food over pesach (467:9 for starters) where the all utensils are assur including any other food mixed with the spoon used (see poskim there).
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Geshmak25 on April 20, 2017, 06:42:17 PM
This thread has gone far off the rails. Im much more interested in reading about pesach hotel horror stories.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 06:46:31 PM
This thread has gone far off the rails. Im much more interested in reading about pesach hotel horror stories.
Do you take great interest in reading about the suffering of fellow Jews?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 06:48:46 PM
I never said they don't have strong Kashrus standards.

However, even with strong Kashrus standards, FWIU there are always compromises that not everyone would gladly accept if they were fully aware (talk to mashgichim). Especially when it comes to Pesach, while some things might just be "chumros", for someone who follows the Rebbe's directives, there seems to be very strict guidance regarding gebrokts. It is close to impossible to maintain that standard in a hotel where not everyone is aware and cares about it.
+100
IME
1.a hotel that has what I call ongoing "general" kashrus problems has a lousy hashgacha.
2. Many hotels with top tier hashgacha either have chilul Shabbos / YT issues or are soimech on many kulos. (First and foremost using the dishwasher on Shabbos and Yom tov in a situation where it would be impossible to wash by hand for 1000 guests. There are tzdadim lhatir)
3. Almost every hotel is soimech on kulos regarding (even those who say they kasher nothing , end up kashering something) kashering whether they admit it or not.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 06:52:40 PM
That's nonsense.
Trustworthy programs like KMR and POTM where I was this year advertise luxury and have strong kashrus standards.

POTM is run by a shliach at a Four Seasons and all of the Rabonim and mashgichim ate the program's regular food as well.

What boggles my mind is why anyone would have signed up to attend a Prime program or any program that is run by a sheister...
pretty sure the Werner family doesn't eat the food from thier Pesach program. They bring their own food
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 06:59:49 PM
pretty sure the Werner family doesn't eat the food from thier Pesach program. They bring their own food
There's a period between the 2nd sentence and the 3rd sentence.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 07:00:10 PM
Do you take great interest in reading about the suffering of fellow Jews?
It's called the "Hagaddah" :P
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: eli1571 on April 20, 2017, 07:07:37 PM
Regarding that there is isur mashehu on chometz of a goy one place it can be seen is 467:8 where it is clear that even a small amount of flour mixed into honey would be a problem.

Regarding mashehu which happened on pesach it is discussed in numerous cases such as where someone finds a kernel in his food over pesach (467:9 for starters) where the all utensils are assur including any other food mixed with the spoon used (see poskim there).
Haven't checked the source you quoted, but are you sure it's not referring to a case that it was found on pesach but was there before vs what I understood in the story above that the goy used it on pesach
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 07:09:47 PM
pretty sure the Werner family doesn't eat the food from thier Pesach program. They bring their own food
Probably easy enough to find out by asking them. Though I think when it comes to R' Simcha Werner, one could be safe to make such an assumption (does he even go to any of these?).
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 07:22:12 PM
pretty sure the Werner family doesn't eat the food from thier Pesach program. They bring their own food
I'd love to understand that. They're hosting a program and allegedly serving food to hundreds of yidden on pesach that they would not allow at their own table?
Mashgichim is different, but hosts?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 07:24:29 PM
I'd love to understand that. They're hosting a program and allegedly serving food to hundreds of yidden on pesach that they would not allow at their own table?
Mashgichim is different, but hosts?
Not everybody holds people to their standards. Some people hold of chumros that they know other don't hold of.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 07:27:02 PM
I'd love to understand that. They're hosting a program and allegedly serving food to hundreds of yidden on pesach that they would not allow at their own table?
Mashgichim is different, but hosts?
Its very simple. If he has higher than your standards why shouldn't he serve you your standards ? If I'm makpid on a certain shechita that's more expensive why shouldn't I serve you whatever shechita you're ok with ?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 07:28:47 PM
Its very simple. If he has higher than your standards why shouldn't he serve you your standards ? If I'm makpid on a certain shechita that's more expensive why shouldn't I serve you whatever shechita you're ok with ?
Exactly. I've worked many weekends serving non cholov yisroel, yet I keep it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 07:39:48 PM
Though I think when it comes to R' Simcha Werner, one could be safe to make such an assumption (does he even go to any of these?).
he most definitely does. To their credit they use pretty good hashgacha for all thier programs. (Interestingly enough though, a different one for almost every program- pesach is the only one when they have a formal hashgacha) date I say the hashgacha on the program is far superior to the hashgacha on the caterer.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 20, 2017, 07:44:59 PM
Probably easy enough to find out by asking them. Though I think when it comes to R' Simcha Werner, one could be safe to make such an assumption (does he even go to any of these?).

Yes he goes. No, they don't eat the food.
I'd love to understand that. They're hosting a program and allegedly serving food to hundreds of yidden on pesach that they would not allow at their own table?
Mashgichim is different, but hosts?

They probably wouldn't eat in anyone's private home,  which is a widely observed custom in Lubavitch. As much as they are "hosts" - they are not running the kitchen according to their personal standards.

My in laws don't eat avocados - not just on matza, they don't eat avocados at all. At my home, we smear avocado on matza. My father doesn't have sugar, even boiled. My father in law does.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 07:48:09 PM
Exactly. I've worked many weekends serving non cholov yisroel, yet I keep it.
So you would serve guests in your home non chalav Yisroel if they weren't makpid?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 07:52:02 PM
Maybe I mean to ask this in a more general sense, chabad minhagim on pesach aside.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 20, 2017, 07:52:08 PM
So you would serve guests in your home non chalav Yisroel if they weren't makpid?
Yes, if I happen to have something non cholov yisroel I would. But I'm not Lubavitch, and actually grew up in a non cholov yisroel home, which makes me a bit of a different case. To me, it's merely a chumrah that I keep while others don't.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 07:56:19 PM
Maybe I mean to ask this in a more general sense, chabad minhagim on pesach aside.
If you were makpid not to eat anything not made at home wouldn't you serve Schick's & Oberlander's to people who do eat them ?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 07:58:24 PM
If you were makpid not to eat anything not made at home wouldn't you serve Schick's & Oberlander's to people who do eat them ?
Do the Werner family eat from the kitchen at the Shavuos program?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 20, 2017, 08:03:02 PM
I definitely understand the idea of being more 'machmir' so not eating the food they serve and there isn't anything wrong with it technically.  But at the end of the day there is something that doesn't feel right about the whole thing. Something that feels off about it. The whole spirit of it. Inviting people to eat food that you somewhere don't think is good enough. I can't quite put it into words but it seems wrong and not in the right kavana of the whole Yom Tov. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 08:03:10 PM
Do the Werner family eat from the kitchen at the Shavuos program?
they do in Banff...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 08:03:50 PM
I definitely understand the idea of being more 'machmir' so not eating the food they serve and there isn't anything wrong with it technically.  But at the end of the day there is something that doesn't feel right about the whole thing. Something that feels off about it. The whole spirit of it. Inviting people to eat food that you somewhere don't think is good enough. I can't quite put it into words but it seems wrong and not in the right kavana of the whole Yom Tov.
it's called a buisness not hachnasas orchim
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 20, 2017, 08:05:34 PM
it's called a buisness not hachnasas orchim
That's fine. I get it. Obviously it's a business. Don't let my word of inviting throw you.  It's like owning a restaurant  you won't eat it. Nothing wrong with it. But again just a personal  opinion that something is off about it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 20, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
Shall we split this off into a new Hilchos Hotels B'Pesach or Kashrus thread?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 08:06:32 PM
they do in Banff...
If pesach is the exception and they have Chassidishe chumros I'm ok with that. But I disagree with a general "it's a business" attitude. By that logic adelson is in a Yiddishe business
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 08:06:57 PM
That's fine. I get it. Obviously it's a business. Don't let my word of inciting throw you.  It's like owning a restaurant  you won't eat it. Nothing wrong with it. But again just a personal  opinion that something is off about it.
like every boro park store selling chalav akum or "national" kosher products???
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 08:07:39 PM
Shall we split this off into a new Hilchos Hotels B'Pesach or Kashrus thread?
This is about Greece, pay attention!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 20, 2017, 08:09:21 PM
My opinion at the moment though I haven't thought about it too long,  is that if you wouldn't have it at your house ok. But if you ate  out at a  neighbors and wouldn't eat it there then you probably shouldn't be selling it. Business may be business. But you're a yid in all you do.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 08:23:01 PM
My opinion at the moment though I haven't thought about it too long,  is that if you wouldn't have it at your house ok. But if you ate  out at a  neighbors and wouldn't eat it there then you probably shouldn't be selling it. Business may be business. But you're a yid in all you do.
But kashrus is so big & complicated & everyone has their own standards.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 20, 2017, 09:03:42 PM
This thread is going to be worse then the Waldorf Astoria Jerusalem Kashrus thread soon.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 09:14:16 PM
If you were makpid not to eat anything not made at home wouldn't you serve Schick's & Oberlander's to people who do eat them ?
Personally I wouldn't have anything in my house that I wouldn't eat myself.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 09:25:17 PM
Personally I wouldn't have anything in my house that I wouldn't eat myself.
I wouldn't call this "his house". He's making an event somewhere & hiring a mashgiach & it's up to you to decide if you trust this mashgiach or not.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 09:26:27 PM
I wouldn't call this "his house". He's making an event somewhere & hiring a mashgiach & it's up to you to decide if you trust this mashgiach or not.
Not referring to a program :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 09:29:32 PM
I wouldn't call this "his house". He's making an event somewhere & hiring a mashgiach & it's up to you to decide if you trust this mashgiach or not.
They're called hosts. People go because they trust Werner. Same was true of Kamenetsky.
Same is true of many restaurants.
Let's put it this way. Suppose they would have a disclaimer on the ads that highest standard of kashrus, but we personally bring our own food. How would that go over?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 09:33:31 PM
Same is true of many restaurants.
Is it?
Talking about restaurants, I was once with my family in La Gondola when the Rosh walked in with his wife (A"H). He saw me eating there and then walked right out much to his wife's protests...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 20, 2017, 09:34:27 PM
They're called hosts. People go because they trust Werner. Same was true of Kamenetsky.
Same is true of many restaurants.
Let's put it this way. Suppose they would have a disclaimer on the ads that highest standard of kashrus, but we personally bring our own food. How would that go over?
As long as they clearly put the hashgacha on the ad I couldn't care less if they bring their own food or not. If he wants to be makpid to bring his own homemade food with him that doesn't mean his wife now has to cook for the entire place. :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda57 on April 20, 2017, 09:42:11 PM
They're called hosts. People go because they trust Werner. Same was true of Kamenetsky.
Same is true of many restaurants.
Let's put it this way. Suppose they would have a disclaimer on the ads that highest standard of kashrus, but we personally bring our own food. How would that go over?
Answered above already. It's about the craziness of Pesach chumras which can hardly be expected of anyone else. Anyone who keeps that standard isn't eating at a friend's house, never mind a program. They do eat their resort food year round.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 09:45:43 PM
Is it?
Talking about restaurants, I was once with my family in La Gondola when the Rosh walked in with his wife (A"H). He saw me eating there and then walked right out much to his wife's protests...
Sure. Exgingi just said that, some people eat based on the owner, not the hashgocha. Different thread I think.
My Rebbe would never eat in a restaurant owned by a non jew, and cares much more about the owner than the hashgocha. If the owner wouldn't eat there himself that would be disturbing.
As long as they clearly put the hashgacha on the ad I couldn't care less if they bring their own food or not. If he wants to be makpid to bring his own homemade food with him that doesn't mean his wife now has to cook for the entire place. :)
I think you may be the exception to the general populace.I think there would be an uproar. Again, chabad minhagim on pesach may be the exception.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mgarfin on April 20, 2017, 09:46:32 PM
like every boro park store selling chalav akum or "national" kosher products???

chalav akum or "national" kosher products in BP, where?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 20, 2017, 09:47:30 PM
Can someone turn this thread into a family guy episode please?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 09:49:21 PM
My Rebbe would never eat in a restaurant owned by a non jew, and cares much more about the owner than the hashgocha. If the owner wouldn't eat there himself that would be disturbing.
Many people in CLE didn't eat at Peking because it was owned by a non-Jew.

Then it was sold to a frum Jew from a respected CLE family and everyone started eating there. 2 years later he was busted for serving treif.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 20, 2017, 09:51:38 PM
Many people in CLE didn't eat at Peking because it was owned by a non-Jew.

Then it was sold to a frum Jew from a respected CLE family and everyone started eating there. 2 years later he was busted for serving treif.
chuckle
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 09:53:01 PM
Answered above already. It's about the craziness of Pesach chumras which can hardly be expected of anyone else. Anyone who keeps that standard isn't eating at a friend's house, never mind a program. They do eat their resort food year round.
Already excepted pesach, at least twice.
Many people in CLE didn't eat at Peking because it was owned by a non-Jew.

Then it was sold to a frum Jew from a respected CLE family and everyone started eating there. 2 years later he was busted for serving treif.
Ouch. But I think the point stands, especially from a purely halachic perspective
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 09:55:01 PM
chuckle
Bottom line is if you eat out at all there's always some risk factor.
Which makes it hard to differentiate between those who would never go to a program because of kashrus, those who would never go because it's too expensive and say so, and those who would never go because it's too expensive, but they attribute it to kashrus.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 10:27:40 PM
Many people in CLE didn't eat at Peking because it was owned by a non-Jew.

Then it was sold to a frum Jew from a respected CLE family and everyone started eating there. 2 years later he was busted for serving treif.
When a kosher restaurant is owned by a non-Jew, you would be relying 100% on the kashrus supervision, which might be more stringent. When owned by a Jew, the supervision might be more lax. I don't think it's possible to set a rule, one has to use שיקול הדעת. I don't eat out much, but I definitely care about both the Hashgocho and the owner. Though I must admit that when it comes to Milchigs I've mostly relied on the Hashgocho.

That being said, and tying to the discussion slightly upthread regarding Cholov Yisroel, I know a couple in Lakewood where the husband eats non-CY while the wife eats only CY. Now, I don't think something like that would fly where Kashering is required between non-CY and CY. For the same reason, if I see an establishment, even with a very reputable Hashgocho, that might have one or two non-CY or non-PY on the menu, I wouldn't eat in such a place.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 20, 2017, 10:39:19 PM
chalav akum or "national" kosher products in BP, where?
gourmet glatt
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 10:39:59 PM
Bottom line is if you eat out at all there's always some risk factor.
Which makes it hard to differentiate between those who would never go to a program because of kashrus, those who would never go because it's too expensive and say so, and those who would never go because it's too expensive, but they attribute it to kashrus.
I would a dd a category for those that go, but are very discriminant. there were many in LA who went to The Chevra because Rabbi Eidelitz was the Rav Hamachshir and literally didn't sleep or eat the whole Pesach, was constantly on watch. Many went to the Pruzansky Hotel because a) they trusted the Pruzansky's or Rabbi Frand's judgment, and I'm sure there are those that go to other programs for the same reason. But they wouldn't just go anywhere.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 20, 2017, 10:54:53 PM


Haven't had such odd non-sequitur, hard to decipher the point of, holier-than-thou, circular logic responses since CBC in his feistier era before Chaikel suspended him.
I honestly don't know why I bother.

Hey! So very offensive.

To even entertain the thought that the Chaikel ban had any positive values or results... (it was actually more like a total meltdown of proper moderation procedures etc etc etc etc. Been discussed of course.
 {what's happening to me? I actually have zero interest in fighting about this }

And then to lump me in together with the most militant of all lubavitures is just scandalous.



Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 10:56:39 PM

Hey! So very offensive.

To even entertain the thought that the Chaikel ban had any positive values or results... (it was actually more like a total meltdown of proper moderation procedures etc etc etc etc. Been discussed of course.
 {what's happening to me? I actually have zero interest in fighting about this }

And then to lump me in together with the most militant of all lubavitures is just scandalous.
A. You're less militant in general since then. I think we've actually seen of you than Chaikel since then anyway ;)
B. You were just as militant and circular back in the day, just at the other end of the spectrum :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 11:01:02 PM

My in laws don't eat avocados - not just on matza, they don't eat avocados at all. At my home, we smear avocado on matza. My father doesn't have sugar, even boiled. My father in law does.
This reminds me of a story that happened one time with our neighbor's (adult) daughter was shocked to find out that in our house we don't use sugar and we use schmaltz on Pesach despite the fact that we're not gezhe. My wife says that she looked like she was ready to say "how dare they".
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 20, 2017, 11:02:28 PM
I visited a yeshivish type hotel this pesach. The main on site mashgiach was seriously mentally ill. - not diagnosing him nebach, but it makes me wonder about the kashrus.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2017, 11:04:30 PM

chalav akum or "national" kosher products in BP, where?
Bingo.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 20, 2017, 11:04:51 PM
Is it?
Talking about restaurants, I was once with my family in La Gondola when the Rosh walked in with his wife (A"H). He saw me eating there and then walked right out much to his wife's protests...
why did he walk out? Because he saw You eating??
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 20, 2017, 11:06:48 PM
Another thing I noticed about pesach programs, people don't spend quality time with their kids over yt like they would at home.

Kids run from one entertainment/daycamp/communal meal to the next. Even lounge time is spent shmoozing w other families.

Spending quality time with kids over yt is crucial IMHO.

Appologies for going drastically OT.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cholent on April 20, 2017, 11:10:25 PM
Another thing I noticed about pesach programs, people don't spend quality time with their kids over yt like they would at home.

Kids run from one entertainment/daycamp/communal meal to the next. Even lounge time is spent shmoozing w other families.

Spending quality time with kids over yt is crucial IMHO.

Appologies for going drastically OT.
Not sure it's possible to go ot on this thread
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 11:10:51 PM
Another thing I noticed about pesach programs, people don't spend quality time with their kids over yt like they would at home.

Kids run from one entertainment/daycamp/communal meal to the next. Even lounge time is spent shmoozing w other families.

Spending quality time with kids over yt is crucial IMHO.

Appologies for going drastically OT.

Communal meal? Where is that a thing?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 11:11:07 PM
Not sure it's possible to go ot in JS
ftfy
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 20, 2017, 11:15:58 PM
Communal meal? Where is that a thing?
I mean a dining room with multiple families in it.. I can't imagine much intimate family time with so much going on...

 but btw, the modox hotels have communal seders led by the rabbi fwiu cmiiw
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 11:17:26 PM
I mean a dining room with multiple families in it.. I can't imagine much intimate family time with so much going on...

 but btw, the modox hotels have communal seders led by the rabbi fwiu cmiiw
We had a meaningful 3 hour long seder in the dining room with our kids. Not sure what the issue is.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: snagger on April 20, 2017, 11:19:33 PM
I was there.

The program was complete chaos and disorganization. I was there last year as well and while the food was awful, there was plenty of it and we had a nice time since the property is gorgeous and we enjoyed the crowd. This year was just ridiculous. Not enough food, no tea room, nobody to talk to about the multiple issues.

Regarding the article above, the story was that the hotel gave the program a bill of about $250k at the end of the program for services they claimed they provided (on top of what the program had already paid them) which the program claimed was inaccurate. The program owner slipped out of the hotel at 4AM after chag.

We checked out early since our flight was early afternoon and all was fine. About 1pm the hotel realized that the owner of the program had skipped town and so they started detaining guests and refusing to allow them to leave the property without paying extravagant amounts, from $5k-$35k per family...

The property is about a mile or more off the main road. There is a long road (about 5-10 minutes) once you get off the highway to the property. There are 3 security checkpoints along that road and they do not let you off the property without a pass from the hotel showing you are paid up in full.

As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.
Youre being quoted by the forward

http://forward.com/food/369613/how-passover-paradise-turned-into-a-holy-nightmare/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 11:23:23 PM
Is it?
Talking about restaurants, I was once with my family in La Gondola when the Rosh walked in with his wife (A"H). He saw me eating there and then walked right out much to his wife's protests...
at least he recognized you (see shlichus thread)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 20, 2017, 11:24:12 PM
Youre being quoted by the forward

http://forward.com/food/369613/how-passover-paradise-turned-into-a-holy-nightmare/
wowee
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 20, 2017, 11:26:17 PM
Another thing I noticed about pesach programs, people don't spend quality time with their kids over yt like they would at home.

Kids run from one entertainment/daycamp/communal meal to the next. Even lounge time is spent shmoozing w other families.

Spending quality time with kids over yt is crucial IMHO.

Appologies for going drastically OT.

Although I'm sure this may be true for some, in my limited experience / exposure this is not at all true. In fact, many report spending more and better time with their kids because they're relaxed and not harried or busy. Many hotels will give you a private room for the seder for a couple extra bucks.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 11:28:29 PM
Youre being quoted by the forward

http://forward.com/food/369613/how-passover-paradise-turned-into-a-holy-nightmare/
LOL, DDF in the news.
How did they find that? And where's the link back to this thread?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 20, 2017, 11:30:58 PM
Although I'm sure this may be true for some, in my limited experience / exposure this is not at all true. In fact, many report spending more and better time with their kids because they're relaxed and not harried or busy. Many hotels will give you a private room for the seder for a couple extra bucks.
+1, less time making food and setting up=More quality time with kids and more quality time with your spouse when the kids are in camp.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 20, 2017, 11:34:43 PM
Youre being quoted by the forward

http://forward.com/food/369613/how-passover-paradise-turned-into-a-holy-nightmare/
Who's the Forward DDF stalker? I need answers!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mgarfin on April 20, 2017, 11:34:57 PM

Appologies for going drastically OT.
You came to a full circle. This was the topic back up thread.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mgarfin on April 20, 2017, 11:37:39 PM
LOL, DDF in the news.
How did they find that? And where's the link back to this thread?

Wait for the subpoenas to get the names of the guys quoted.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 21, 2017, 12:09:27 AM
Truly nightmares being reported by people who attended on that Facebook group. What thieves.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shiframeir on April 21, 2017, 01:22:59 AM
+1, less time making food and setting up=More quality time with kids and more quality time with your spouse when the kids are in camp.
gotta say my first pesach away (at the Leonardo Plaza in Jlem) was pretty amazing, and we had the best seders i ever had with my kids, with a laid back happy and loving atmosphere. even without a private room, the plaza gave enough space that it wasnt loud in the general hall, and on the second day it was half empty. Food was basically loft/les marais quality (or better) throughout. We felt some true cheirus, though we dont want to do this every year and spoil the kids from not cleaning/learning to clean the kitchen for pesach. there is a small kids room, but not the robust programming us programs have, so we spent tons of time together.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cmey on April 21, 2017, 02:34:54 AM
+1, less time making food and setting up=More quality time with kids and more quality time with your spouse when the kids are in camp.

People aren't really speaking the same language here. Someone who makes pesach at home with each kid contributing hand made arts and crafts and divrei torah to the table, helping to bake the pesach dishes, portion out the matzah and Maror, taking turns serving & bringing washing water for zeidy etc., setting up props for the makos and acting them out, marching around the house to bitzeis yisroel, spending most of yom tov (and chol hamoed if you focus on the right venues) focused on the kids without too many distractions etc. there is no way they can appreciate the hotel scene. I've had guests come to my home who've been to some pretty decent pesach programs with their parents when they were growing up and they wistfully remark that they never knew what they were missing by not having experienced pesach at home.

On the other hand, those who go to the programs can't fathom how one can enjoy yom tov if they would have to non stop cook clean up and serve and be stuck in the house with nothing exciting for the kids to really do and hours of work with no down time for the parents for themselves.

Then again there are families who stay home and have a stressful time of it and really would do better in a hotel environment.

Bottom line is there is nothing like an at home pesach experience when it is done right, but not everyone is able to pull it off in the right atmosphere and a program is actually not a bad option for them.....

Lastly there are the programs where to goal is non stop hedonism, gorging on culinary dishes and dubious entertainment options for eight days straight while the kids are whisked out of sight so mom and dad can give their undevided attention to their pleasure trip while acknowledging that it happens to be pesach with a token Seder and a lecture or two where they are passive participants. I have nothing but pity( was going to say contempt but really pity is much more appropriate)for these folks because their choice of venue is just a symptom of the fact that they have no idea of the significance of the unbelievable holiday they are turning their backs on, a lifestyle where success is measured in terms of things and status, rather than relationships and personal growth, or both.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 21, 2017, 02:45:01 AM

Lastly there are the programs where to goal is non stop hedonism, gorging on culinary dishes and dubious entertainment options for eight days straight while the kids are whisked out of sight so mom and dad can give their undevided attention to their pleasure trip

And then you get taken hostage by the hotel. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: jye on April 21, 2017, 03:19:54 AM
And then you get taken hostage by the hotel.
My brother painted the post pesach scene really well:

"The latest reports are that an underground market has developed in the hotel: 1 cigarette = 1 knaidel, but you need to talk to Moishe Goldberg to make the trade. He has an in with housekeeping. Everyone is losing weight except for Dov Moskowitz. His room was tossed yesterday in search of contraband and his roommates are turning on him.....stay tuned."
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 21, 2017, 06:12:04 AM
Truly nightmares being reported by people who attended on that Facebook group. What thieves.

Link?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Emkay on April 21, 2017, 06:28:05 AM
Link?
This?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/gkrfoodies/permalink/666384636880850/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2017, 08:04:17 AM
And then you get taken hostage by the hotel.
those people are always hostage to some taava
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 21, 2017, 08:24:15 AM
This?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/gkrfoodies/permalink/666384636880850/

Yes
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 21, 2017, 08:38:35 AM
People aren't really speaking the same language here. Someone who makes pesach at home with each kid contributing hand made arts and crafts and divrei torah to the table, helping to bake the pesach dishes, portion out the matzah and Maror, taking turns serving & bringing washing water for zeidy etc., setting up props for the makos and acting them out, marching around the house to bitzeis yisroel, spending most of yom tov (and chol hamoed if you focus on the right venues) focused on the kids without too many distractions etc. there is no way they can appreciate the hotel scene. I've had guests come to my home who've been to some pretty decent pesach programs with their parents when they were growing up and they wistfully remark that they never knew what they were missing by not having experienced pesach at home.

On the other hand, those who go to the programs can't fathom how one can enjoy yom tov if they would have to non stop cook clean up and serve and be stuck in the house with nothing exciting for the kids to really do and hours of work with no down time for the parents for themselves.

Then again there are families who stay home and have a stressful time of it and really would do better in a hotel environment.

Bottom line is there is nothing like an at home pesach experience when it is done right, but not everyone is able to pull it off in the right atmosphere and a program is actually not a bad option for them.....

Lastly there are the programs where to goal is non stop hedonism, gorging on culinary dishes and dubious entertainment options for eight days straight while the kids are whisked out of sight so mom and dad can give their undevided attention to their pleasure trip while acknowledging that it happens to be pesach with a token Seder and a lecture or two where they are passive participants. I have nothing but pity( was going to say contempt but really pity is much more appropriate)for these folks because their choice of venue is just a symptom of the fact that they have no idea of the significance of the unbelievable holiday they are turning their backs on, a lifestyle where success is measured in terms of things and status, rather than relationships and personal growth, or both.
+10
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2017, 08:44:45 AM
People aren't really speaking the same language here. Someone who makes pesach at home with each kid contributing hand made arts and crafts and divrei torah to the table, helping to bake the pesach dishes, portion out the matzah and Maror, taking turns serving & bringing washing water for zeidy etc., setting up props for the makos and acting them out, marching around the house to bitzeis yisroel, spending most of yom tov (and chol hamoed if you focus on the right venues) focused on the kids without too many distractions etc. there is no way they can appreciate the hotel scene. I've had guests come to my home who've been to some pretty decent pesach programs with their parents when they were growing up and they wistfully remark that they never knew what they were missing by not having experienced pesach at home.

On the other hand, those who go to the programs can't fathom how one can enjoy yom tov if they would have to non stop cook clean up and serve and be stuck in the house with nothing exciting for the kids to really do and hours of work with no down time for the parents for themselves.

Then again there are families who stay home and have a stressful time of it and really would do better in a hotel environment.

Bottom line is there is nothing like an at home pesach experience when it is done right, but not everyone is able to pull it off in the right atmosphere and a program is actually not a bad option for them.....

Lastly there are the programs where to goal is non stop hedonism, gorging on culinary dishes and dubious entertainment options for eight days straight while the kids are whisked out of sight so mom and dad can give their undevided attention to their pleasure trip while acknowledging that it happens to be pesach with a token Seder and a lecture or two where they are passive participants. I have nothing but pity( was going to say contempt but really pity is much more appropriate)for these folks because their choice of venue is just a symptom of the fact that they have no idea of the significance of the unbelievable holiday they are turning their backs on, a lifestyle where success is measured in terms of things and status, rather than relationships and personal growth, or both.
+10
+10 is not nearly enough.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yuneeq on April 21, 2017, 08:58:19 AM
I am thankful my parents never took us to any programs while I was growing up. They were able to afford it but I can't fathom how our Pesach seder would be the same in a hotel. It would not even be close. It's also a great time to spend at home with my siblings, grandparents, and extended family that I don't wanna miss. That being said, after seeing the video from the Arizona program I must admit I was enticed.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: TimT on April 21, 2017, 09:04:45 AM
those people are always hostage to some taava
ישראל עם קדושים
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Toasted on April 21, 2017, 09:23:34 AM
+10 is not nearly enough.
+10
Waiting to see if this makes it to the Forward as well.  8)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: theduke on April 21, 2017, 09:34:59 AM
People aren't really speaking the same language here. Someone who makes pesach at home with each kid contributing hand made arts and crafts and divrei torah to the table, helping to bake the pesach dishes, portion out the matzah and Maror, taking turns serving & bringing washing water for zeidy etc., setting up props for the makos and acting them out, marching around the house to bitzeis yisroel, spending most of yom tov (and chol hamoed if you focus on the right venues) focused on the kids without too many distractions etc. there is no way they can appreciate the hotel scene. I've had guests come to my home who've been to some pretty decent pesach programs with their parents when they were growing up and they wistfully remark that they never knew what they were missing by not having experienced pesach at home.

On the other hand, those who go to the programs can't fathom how one can enjoy yom tov if they would have to non stop cook clean up and serve and be stuck in the house with nothing exciting for the kids to really do and hours of work with no down time for the parents for themselves.

Then again there are families who stay home and have a stressful time of it and really would do better in a hotel environment.

Bottom line is there is nothing like an at home pesach experience when it is done right, but not everyone is able to pull it off in the right atmosphere and a program is actually not a bad option for them.....

Lastly there are the programs where to goal is non stop hedonism, gorging on culinary dishes and dubious entertainment options for eight days straight while the kids are whisked out of sight so mom and dad can give their undevided attention to their pleasure trip while acknowledging that it happens to be pesach with a token Seder and a lecture or two where they are passive participants. I have nothing but pity( was going to say contempt but really pity is much more appropriate)for these folks because their choice of venue is just a symptom of the fact that they have no idea of the significance of the unbelievable holiday they are turning their backs on, a lifestyle where success is measured in terms of things and status, rather than relationships and personal growth, or both.
Could not have said this better myself.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda_H on April 21, 2017, 09:43:43 AM
People aren't really speaking the same language here. Someone who makes pesach at home with each kid contributing hand made arts and crafts and divrei torah to the table, helping to bake the pesach dishes, portion out the matzah and Maror, taking turns serving & bringing washing water for zeidy etc., setting up props for the makos and acting them out, marching around the house to bitzeis yisroel, spending most of yom tov (and chol hamoed if you focus on the right venues) focused on the kids without too many distractions etc. there is no way they can appreciate the hotel scene. I've had guests come to my home who've been to some pretty decent pesach programs with their parents when they were growing up and they wistfully remark that they never knew what they were missing by not having experienced pesach at home.

On the other hand, those who go to the programs can't fathom how one can enjoy yom tov if they would have to non stop cook clean up and serve and be stuck in the house with nothing exciting for the kids to really do and hours of work with no down time for the parents for themselves.

Then again there are families who stay home and have a stressful time of it and really would do better in a hotel environment.

Bottom line is there is nothing like an at home pesach experience when it is done right, but not everyone is able to pull it off in the right atmosphere and a program is actually not a bad option for them.....

Lastly there are the programs where to goal is non stop hedonism, gorging on culinary dishes and dubious entertainment options for eight days straight while the kids are whisked out of sight so mom and dad can give their undevided attention to their pleasure trip while acknowledging that it happens to be pesach with a token Seder and a lecture or two where they are passive participants. I have nothing but pity( was going to say contempt but really pity is much more appropriate)for these folks because their choice of venue is just a symptom of the fact that they have no idea of the significance of the unbelievable holiday they are turning their backs on, a lifestyle where success is measured in terms of things and status, rather than relationships and personal growth, or both.
Growing up, we always made pesach at home. It was a lot of work, we all chipped in cooking and cleaning and my mother organized the kashering of the kitchen. Once pesach started, it was - not fun - but enjoyable for all the personal efforts put in.
Chol hamoed meals were usually tuna burgers on matzah meal buns or matzah pizza or matzah cereal (you can see where this is going, lol).
Since I got married, i've been joining my in-laws at a hotel program and it's fun and enjoyable in a different way. Gourmet meals, fresh omelettes at every meal, non stop food/tea room, well it gets to be a bit much. And the kids are very young, so late meals really get out of hand for them.
My personal preference would be to maker the sedarim at home and then spend chol hamoed and the last days with family/in laws outside the neighborhood.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 21, 2017, 10:04:42 AM
This?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/gkrfoodies/permalink/666384636880850/

Strikes me as a bit odd that the host of this group (who never allows anything nasty to be posted) took the initiative here when it involved a competing program in the Cancun area

Not sure of his exact involvement in "Kosher Luxus" (PR guy?) but he is always selling a bag of goods on what most people say is a pretty subpar program throughout the year
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: 12HRS on April 21, 2017, 10:16:19 AM
This?
https://www.facebook.com/groups/gkrfoodies/permalink/666384636880850/

Quote
Dear Guests we are amidst an intense legal battle with the Royaton Riviera over lost monies, poor service and overall dissatisfaction. Please see the attached letters addressed to the Royalton. We will be reaching out to guests all week and will keep you updated as more information becomes available. Once again our sincerest apologies and as our lawyers are now reccomending that US citizens not travel to Mexico any longer due to current highten tensions, we will keep you updated as more information becomes available.
All the best,
Shmuel & Eli

Seriously?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2017, 10:20:04 AM
Strikes me as a bit odd that the host of this group (who never allows anything nasty to be posted) took the initiative here when it involved a competing program in the Cancun area

Not sure of his exact involvement in "Kosher Luxus" (PR guy?) but he is always selling a bag of goods on what most people say is a pretty subpar program throughout the year
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Geshmak25 on April 21, 2017, 10:24:06 AM
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.
You should be able to get objective testimonials on ddf. Problem is that there are so many diff programs that it will be hard to cover most of them and get enough of them to form a consensus opinion.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 21, 2017, 10:25:11 AM
You should be able to get objective testimonials on ddf. Problem is that there are so many diff programs that it will be hard to cover most of them and get enough of them to form a consensus opinion.
Well start a thread, form a wiki, and we will see
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 21, 2017, 10:25:36 AM
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.
+1 had a meeting with him before, spot on.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 21, 2017, 10:30:33 AM
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.

Hence why this is even more bothersome....
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2017, 10:33:15 AM
Hence why this is even more bothersome....
Call him out on it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2017, 10:35:24 AM
FWIW, his official program in PR last year had major issues from what I heard from some people, but you won't find that online anywhere...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 21, 2017, 10:36:09 AM
FWIW, his official program in PR last year had major issues from what I heard from some people, but you won't find that online anywhere...
This can be that one place online...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2017, 10:37:27 AM
This can be that one place online...
I don't have a bone in the fight, I just happen to agree with damax that the double standard is wrong. Feel free to post what you want here.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 21, 2017, 10:38:50 AM
I don't have a bone in the fight, I just happen to agree with damax that the double standard is wrong. Feel free to post what you want here.
I was not implying that it should be your fight, but this is a site with freedom of opinion, so let's all take advantage.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 21, 2017, 10:39:26 AM
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.

Do they offer you money to take down bad reviews?  It's like reverse extortion.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2017, 10:41:04 AM
Do they offer you money to take down bad reviews?  It's like reverse extortion.
I have been offered money in the past, I haven't asked how much or taken it.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 21, 2017, 10:41:56 AM
I have been offered money in the past, I haven't asked how much or taken it.

I'll give you 5 bucks to ask next time
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 21, 2017, 10:44:42 AM
One thing you will notice is that the best Pesach programs (KMR etc) don't have to hire PR firms etc and fill up quick on word of mouth etc, sometimes weeks before they even announce which hotel they are going to..
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 21, 2017, 10:50:14 AM
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.

I've never seen him give a bad review on a restaurant. The only exception was a pizza shop in Cedarhurst and there he was brutal and relentless.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 21, 2017, 10:52:02 AM
I've never seen him give a bad review on a restaurant. The only exception was a pizza shop in Cedarhurst and there he was brutal and relentless.
I guess they should have paid ;)

FWIW there was a restaurant chef (of a paying client) who made fun of how bad another restaurant was (that was not a paying client) and he let that post stand for a day until so many people started complaining about the double standard that he had to take it down.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 21, 2017, 10:52:14 AM
I've never seen him give a bad review on a restaurant. The only exception was a pizza shop in Cedarhurst and there he was brutal and relentless.
Exactly. He gives a great review, then tries to get you to pay to get into his ads
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dave321 on April 21, 2017, 11:26:40 AM
His business model is getting restaurants to pay him to make sure people don't say bad things about them.

Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara. So every kosher restaurant is a 10 there...

And yes, Luxus does pay him off and they have sent us emails to take down negative reviews about them on DDF. But that's the benefit of not being beholden, go ahead and send your fancy NY lawyuhs if you want.

FWIW, this is the issue with a site that would review programs. The only way to pay for that would be to get programs to advertise, and once that happens you lose credibility. Plus then you'll start getting the takedown notices, etc.

case in point. last year at his paradise in Puerto Rico, the guest got food poisoning. Any review that got posted about it was removed and blocked.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: docbjg on April 21, 2017, 11:54:40 AM
"Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara."

Are you saying that that's not legit? Does that beat your approach to lashon hara on your forums? (Though I can't exactly figure out what that approach is...)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: as2 on April 21, 2017, 11:57:14 AM
"Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara."

Are you saying that that's not legit? Does that beat your approach to lashon hara on your forums? (Though I can't exactly figure out what that approach is...)
So is your approach, "don't tell anyone how you got shtupped by a pesach program and let them get shtupped themselves?" Sounds great, I'll stick with my LH
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2017, 12:00:08 PM
"Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara."

Are you saying that that's not legit? Does that beat your approach to lashon hara on your forums? (Though I can't exactly figure out what that approach is...)
It means he is ignoring lo saamod al dam reyecho
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 21, 2017, 12:00:43 PM
"Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara."

Are you saying that that's not legit? Does that beat your approach to lashon hara on your forums? (Though I can't exactly figure out what that approach is...)
great second post I guess it took you 5 years to word it correctly
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yoohoo on April 21, 2017, 12:13:33 PM
 ;D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: damaxer91 on April 21, 2017, 12:14:44 PM
"Hence no negative reviews on his page, though he frames that as no lashon hara."

Are you saying that that's not legit? Does that beat your approach to lashon hara on your forums? (Though I can't exactly figure out what that approach is...)

On the FB group its more like "Loshon Horah not permitted unless it benefits the site owner"
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mb1 on April 21, 2017, 12:23:43 PM
Didn't realize JTZ left again till I realized he was missing this conversation.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 21, 2017, 12:29:14 PM
As if someone was reading this thread:

http://crownheights.info/psa/574062/shabbos-besht-kashrus-standards/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: daybyday on April 21, 2017, 03:14:49 PM
Just going to put this out there:

I am now married with kids but back in the days when i was single i used to work as a mashgiach in hotels. I worked in one program which was not very fancy for a few years and that program was superb with no issues. Later i worked in a program which was definitely on the fancier side. This program didn't care at all about kashrus, all they cared about was how happy were the guests. Non-Jewish workers would bring pizza and donuts into the kitchen (yes you read right) and no one cared at all. When i mentioned it to the head mashgiach he was too scared of the caterer and the kitchen staff and it all continued. Kashrus was not at all a priority.

I emailed the owners of the program at the time, but i'm sure nothing was done about it and the program probably still runs the same way. So if you are in a hotel program be aware there is a good chance you had a good time while eating pure chometz.


Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 21, 2017, 03:20:36 PM
Just going to put this out there:

I am now married with kids but back in the days when i was single i used to work as a mashgiach in hotels. I worked in one program which was not very fancy for a few years and that program was superb with no issues. Later i worked in a program which was definitely on the fancier side. This program didn't care at all about kashrus, all they cared about was how happy were the guests. Non-Jewish workers would bring pizza and donuts into the kitchen (yes you read right) and no one cared at all. When i mentioned it to the head mashgiach he was too scared of the caterer and the kitchen staff and it all continued. Kashrus was not all a priority.

I emailed the owners of the program at the time, but i'm sure nothing was done about it and the program probably still runs the same way. So if you are in a hotel program be aware there is a good chance you had a good time while eating pure chometz.


Real pizza,  or gebrokts?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mb1 on April 21, 2017, 03:26:29 PM

Real pizza,  or gebrokts?
Not clear from the post but I think the main problem was that it was not CY.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: daybyday on April 21, 2017, 03:29:02 PM

Real pizza,  or gebrokts?

Yes real pizza and real donuts. B"H no gebrokts that would be horrible  ;D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 21, 2017, 03:29:33 PM
Not clear from the post but I think the main problem was that it was not CY.
Rotfl
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 21, 2017, 03:36:50 PM
At the end of the day if you want 100% guaranteed kosher you grow your own food and shect your own meat etc.     
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cholent on April 21, 2017, 03:39:36 PM
At the end of the day if you want 100% guaranteed kosher you grow your own food and shect your own meat etc.   
Straw man
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2017, 03:40:22 PM
At the end of the day if you want 100% guaranteed kosher you grow your own food and shect your own meat etc.     
Why so? Who says i would make a good shochet?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: sky121 on April 21, 2017, 03:41:37 PM
Why so? Who says i would make a good shochet?
No one but if you were learned in the halachos  you'd at least know when you weren't doing a good job. 

Want to be more 'careful'? Become a vegan. 
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2017, 03:43:34 PM
At the end of the day if you want 100% guaranteed kosher you grow your own food and shect your own meat etc.     

Not the first time that equivalence was made in this thread. Chometz on Pesach is much stricter than most other issurim both in its shiur (mashehu) and in its bittul (not batel bshishim on Pesach).
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 21, 2017, 03:52:52 PM
No one but if you were learned in the halachos  you'd at least know when you weren't doing a good job.  . 
And now that there are others who know it bettter and have practiced more than me I am better off relying on them. What does that have to do with Pesach Programs?
Want to be more 'careful'? Become a vegan. 
chumro habo liyedei kula
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: whYME on April 21, 2017, 03:56:41 PM
Non-Jewish workers would bring pizza and donuts into the kitchen (yes you read right) and no one cared at all.
At least here it was the non-jewish workers. I just heard about a case where the "mashgichim" were bringing in chometz. (I heard this secondhand, from my BIL who heard it directly from his friend who was one of these "mashgichim.")
In fact this "mashgiach" said that the people there were lucky if anything they ate was kosher at all, let alone KFP. The "mashgichim" were sitting around drinking whiskey and totally couldn't give a crap about anything that happened in the kitchen.

I'm not saying this is the norm but apparently it does happen...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 21, 2017, 04:11:39 PM
At least here it was the non-jewish workers. I just heard about a case where the "mashgichim" were bringing in chometz. (I heard this secondhand, from my BIL who heard it directly from his friend who was one of these "mashgichim.")
In fact this "mashgiach" said that the people there were lucky if anything they ate was kosher at all, let alone KFP. The "mashgichim" were sitting around drinking whiskey and totally couldn't give a crap about anything that happened in the kitchen.

I'm not saying this is the norm but apparently it does happen...

That just sounds crazy.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 21, 2017, 04:17:24 PM
At least here it was the non-jewish workers. I just heard about a case where the "mashgichim" were bringing in chometz. (I heard this secondhand, from my BIL who heard it directly from his friend who was one of these "mashgichim.")
In fact this "mashgiach" said that the people there were lucky if anything they ate was kosher at all, let alone KFP. The "mashgichim" were sitting around drinking whiskey and totally couldn't give a crap about anything that happened in the kitchen.

I'm not saying this is the norm but apparently it does happen...
I would fire a mashgiach after one warning for drinking anything on the job. (Matuk Kal for sales koisos.)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 21, 2017, 04:30:12 PM

At least here it was the non-jewish workers. I just heard about a case where the "mashgichim" were bringing in chometz. (I heard this secondhand, from my BIL who heard it directly from his friend who was one of these "mashgichim.")
In fact this "mashgiach" said that the people there were lucky if anything they ate was kosher at all, let alone KFP. The "mashgichim" were sitting around drinking whiskey and totally couldn't give a crap about anything that happened in the kitchen.

I'm not saying this is the norm but apparently it does happen...
When I was a bochur, a good friend of mine who used to do Hashgocho gigs for the OK told me, that the OK will not take Lubavitchers as mashgichim for Sukkos programs. The reasoning was that a "Lubavitcher" who would go on such a program, couldn't be makpid on not drinking outside the sukkah, so if he's willing to go somewhere where he can't keep up to that, he might not be so ירא שמים. While for a non-Lubavitcher drinking outside the sukkah is a non-issue.

I don't know if this was a strict policy, and whether it might be the current policy, or only an idea that came up in conversation.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 21, 2017, 04:32:05 PM
When I was a bochur, a good friend of mine who used to do Hashgocho gigs for the OK told me, that the OK will not take Lubavitchers as mashgichim for Sukkos programs. The reasoning was that a "Lubavitcher" who would go on such a program, couldn't be makpid on not drinking outside the sukkah, so if he's willing to go somewhere where he can't keep up to that, he might not be so ירא שמים. While for a non-Lubavitcher drinking outside the sukkah is a non-issue.

I don't know if this was a strict policy, and whether it might be the current policy, or only an idea that came up in conversation.

Sure,  but the bochurim who want to go to cancun for pesach are probably spending their spare time drawing the kav
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 21, 2017, 04:32:40 PM

Sure,  but the bochurim who want to go to cancun for pesach are probably spending their spare time drawing the kav
ALOL
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 21, 2017, 05:29:00 PM

Just going to put this out there:

I am now married with kids but back in the days when i was single i used to work as a mashgiach in hotels. I worked in one program which was not very fancy for a few years and that program was superb with no issues. Later i worked in a program which was definitely on the fancier side. This program didn't care at all about kashrus, all they cared about was how happy were the guests. Non-Jewish workers would bring pizza and donuts into the kitchen (yes you read right) and no one cared at all. When i mentioned it to the head mashgiach he was too scared of the caterer and the kitchen staff and it all continued. Kashrus was not at all a priority.

I emailed the owners of the program at the time, but i'm sure nothing was done about it and the program probably still runs the same way. So if you are in a hotel program be aware there is a good chance you had a good time while eating pure chometz.
So does this corroborate my "assumptions" that were attacked by Dan?

And as for Dan's claims for circular logic used, after rereading what I wrote I can see why he thought so, though its more of an issue of חסורי מחסרא והכי קתני - missing the point that the bochur that sought the fancier Pesach sedorim (to clarify for the "outsiders" on this forum, older Yeshiva bochurim in Lubavitch often go to help run, or actually run themselves, public sedorim in all corners of the world) was known by his father not to be the type that would inquire about kashrus standards.

I am not saying that he's any less holy than anyone else, just that the emphasis and the priority list has luxury high up, while questioning or inquiring about kashrus standards seems secondary to that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 21, 2017, 07:55:44 PM
Sure,  but the bochurim who want to go to cancun for pesach are probably spending their spare time drawing the kav
Henche, so good to have you around.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on April 23, 2017, 01:19:04 AM
At least here it was the non-jewish workers. I just heard about a case where the "mashgichim" were bringing in chometz. (I heard this secondhand, from my BIL who heard it directly from his friend who was one of these "mashgichim.")
In fact this "mashgiach" said that the people there were lucky if anything they ate was kosher at all, let alone KFP. The "mashgichim" were sitting around drinking whiskey and totally couldn't give a crap about anything that happened in the kitchen.

I'm not saying this is the norm but apparently it does happen...

I know firsthand of a program that hired a "bochur" who is (לעת עתה) openly not frum.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 23, 2017, 01:38:18 AM
At least here it was the non-jewish workers. I just heard about a case where the "mashgichim" were bringing in chometz. (I heard this secondhand, from my BIL who heard it directly from his friend who was one of these "mashgichim.")
In fact this "mashgiach" said that the people there were lucky if anything they ate was kosher at all, let alone KFP. The "mashgichim" were sitting around drinking whiskey and totally couldn't give a crap about anything that happened in the kitchen.

I'm not saying this is the norm but apparently it does happen...
I know firsthand of a program that hired a "bochur" who is (לעת עתה) openly not frum.
In one of the weekly papers around Lakewood shuls someone brought a story that his grandfather was a mashgiach somewhere and wanted to get a different job. He told the Bluzhever Rebbe that he wanted to get a different job since he was worried about the responsibility. The Rebbe answered "Who should be mashgiach instead? Someone who is NOT nervous about the responsibility?"
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on April 23, 2017, 10:52:22 AM
pretty sure the Werner family doesn't eat the food from thier Pesach program. They bring their own food

they do bring their own food
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on April 23, 2017, 10:56:34 AM
Many people in CLE didn't eat at Peking because it was owned by a non-Jew.

Then it was sold to a frum Jew from a respected CLE family and everyone started eating there. 2 years later he was busted for serving treif.

did it taste good?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 23, 2017, 11:07:27 AM
did it taste good?
Why should it? I am sure the purpose was not to make it taste better.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: beeweegee on April 23, 2017, 11:11:11 AM
I know firsthand of a program that hired a "bochur" who is (לעת עתה) openly not frum.
Years ago, I worked for a caterer (not Pesach) who hired a Mashgiach who wasn't frum (he did wear a yarmulka which on the job). I can't tell you how many times the Hispanic manager corrected him on matters of Kashrus.

Most notably:
Manager to waiter - "Please start putting the bottles of wine on the tables."
Mashgiach to manager: "Oh no, don't tell her that. I need to do that."
Manager to Mashgiach - "That's okay, these bottles are mevushal!"
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 23, 2017, 01:57:34 PM
Years ago, I worked for a caterer (not Pesach) who hired a Mashgiach who wasn't frum (he did wear a yarmulka which on the job). I can't tell you how many times the Hispanic manager corrected him on matters of Kashrus.

Most notably:
Manager to waiter - "Please start putting the bottles of wine on the tables."
Mashgiach to manager: "Oh no, don't tell her that. I need to do that."
Manager to Mashgiach - "That's okay, these bottles are mevushal!"
the hashgacha shouldnt have allowed non-mevushal wine period
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 23, 2017, 02:05:16 PM
the hashgacha shouldnt have allowed non-mevushal wine period
IINM that is standard with all hashgochos in catered events or restaurants. Only mevushal wine is allowed.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 23, 2017, 03:35:43 PM
IINM that is standard with all hashgochos in catered events or restaurants. Only mevushal wine is allowed.
with the bigger hashgachos that is standard. With some of the smaller fly by night heimeshe hashgachos, as long as there is no Heinz ketchup anything goes. My all time favorite from a Rav hamachshir I was doing a hotel job for "vus ken zein shlecht mit Cognac?"
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on April 23, 2017, 07:25:13 PM
with the bigger hashgachos that is standard. With some of the smaller fly by night heimeshe hashgachos, as long as there is no Heinz ketchup anything goes. My all time favorite from a Rav hamachshir I was doing a hotel job for "vus ken zein shlecht mit Cognac?"

I've heard it said that a "heimishe hashgocha" is one where the rov/mashgiach stays at home...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2017, 08:07:25 PM
I've heard it said that a "heimishe hashgocha" is one where the rov/mashgiach stays at home...
Like
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 23, 2017, 08:10:53 PM
I've heard it said that a "heimishe hashgocha" is one where the rov/mashgiach stays at home...
Unfortunately true. A substitute mashgiach showed up to a  heimish soda factory one morning to find it in full swing. All the machines turned on and running... The goyim have the keys... Not a Yid in sight.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda_H on April 23, 2017, 08:43:39 PM
I go to a pesach program with my inlaws; the Rav Hamachshir was recalled a few years ago because he was too "machmir" and the caterer was unhappy. AFAIK, his replacement is also a very good rav hamachshir but maybe knows how to be a little more flexible with the caterer. From what I see, the kashrus is held to a very high standard.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Moshe123 on April 23, 2017, 09:07:36 PM
I go to a pesach program with my inlaws; the Rav Hamachshir was recalled a few years ago because he was too "machmir" and the caterer was unhappy. AFAIK, his replacement is also a very good rav hamachshir but maybe knows how to be a little more flexible with the caterer. From what I see, the kashrus is held to a very high standard.

Or you want to convince yourself so when there are red lights flashing.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 23, 2017, 09:08:16 PM
Did anyone get their money back from the Greece program (other than CC charge backs)?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on April 23, 2017, 09:52:05 PM
I go to a pesach program with my inlaws;

What to wish someone who is making:
Pesach at home - חג כשר ושמח
Pesach at in-laws - חג כשר
Pesach at hotel - חג שמח
Pesach at hotel with in-laws- חג...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 23, 2017, 10:55:07 PM
Unfortunately true. A substitute mashgiach showed up to a  heimish soda factory one morning to find it in full swing. All the machines turned on and running... The goyim have the keys... Not a Yid in sight.
AFAIK there are no "heimeshe" soda plants. Just regular bottling facilities that do private labels. As far as beverages go, if it was an all Pareve facility and all ingredients were approved prior, maybe they had authorization to begin prior to mashgiachs arrival.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 23, 2017, 11:03:21 PM


AFAIK there are no "heimeshe" soda plants. Just regular bottling facilities that do private labels. As far as beverages go, if it was an all Pareve facility and all ingredients were approved prior, maybe they had authorization to begin prior to mashgiachs arrival.

Certain heimeshe soda brands have a distinct flavor, so much so that they must be making it themselves. Anyways as far as a mashgiachs job goes, he's the one supposed to authorize anything.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 24, 2017, 06:20:06 AM

Certain heimeshe soda brands have a distinct flavor, so much so that they must be making it themselves. Anyways as far as a mashgiachs job goes, he's the one supposed to authorize anything.
the distinct flavour is the same flavour that other brands that you've never seen or tasted have. There is another concept known as co-packing where you bring your recipe to a company and they produce it to your spec.
The Rav Hamachshir authorizes, a mashgiach supervises.
In your case you may be right, but many heimeshe products are not produced with hashgacha temidis
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehuda_H on April 24, 2017, 10:34:34 AM
Quote from: zh cohen on April 04, 2017, 02:45:20 PM

    What to wish someone who is making:
    Pesach at home - חג כשר ושמח
    Pesach at in-laws - חג כשר
    Pesach at hotel - חג שמח
    Pesach at hotel with in-laws- חג...
So true  ;D
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2017, 10:38:17 AM



In your case you may be right, but many heimeshe products are not produced with hashgacha temidis

Maybe I didn't explain what happened fully. This mashkiach was supposed to open up the place for the goyim and turn on the machines. The goyim had the keys to the place to come in whenever they please and turned on the machines.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 24, 2017, 10:50:00 AM
Maybe I didn't explain what happened fully. This mashkiach was supposed to open up the place for the goyim and turn on the machines. The goyim had the keys to the place to come in whenever they please and turned on the machines.

Why does this surprise you so much? I'm yet to see a product like soda have a notation next to the hashgacha that there's a mashgiach tmidi.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2017, 11:00:09 AM


Why does this surprise you so much? I'm yet to see a product like soda have a notation next to the hashgacha that there's a mashgiach tmidi.

My problem is


 The goyim had the keys to the place to come in whenever they please and turned on the machines.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 24, 2017, 11:10:39 AM

My problem is
The goyim had the keys to the place to come in whenever they please and turned on the machines.

And what might they have done, or introduced into the soda, that might have been problematic?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2017, 11:15:26 AM


And what might they have done, or introduced into the soda, that might have been problematic?
Do you drink coffee from Starbucks  on Pesach? Many people would on a general day but not Pesach. So this soda is now like Starbucks coffee, doesn't have a (proper) hechsher but presumed kosher.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 24, 2017, 11:30:03 AM
Do you drink coffee from Starbucks  on Pesach? Many people would on a general day but not Pesach. So this soda is now like Starbucks coffee, doesn't have a (proper) hechsher but presumed kosher.
I don't recall seeing that you indicated that this was a KFP production.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 24, 2017, 12:03:14 PM
I don't recall seeing that you indicated that this was a KFP production.
Well, it is posted in the Pesach War Stories Master Thread..
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 24, 2017, 12:17:42 PM
Well, it is posted in the Pesach War Stories Master Thread..
Right. But this is DDF where we go OT.  :) After all, haven't heard of soda bottling in Pesach programs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2017, 12:57:06 PM
I don't recall seeing that you indicated that this was a KFP production.

Well, it is posted in the Pesach War Stories Master Thread..
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CS1 on April 24, 2017, 07:32:21 PM

Maybe I didn't explain what happened fully. This mashkiach was supposed to open up the place for the goyim and turn on the machines. The goyim had the keys to the place to come in whenever they please and turned on the machines.

was this for a Pesach run (tmidi needed) or for a regular Kosher run? i.e. Coca Cola and most national year-round cold and all-parve locations don't have mashgichei t'midim in an all-kosher facility, just regular checks, access and yotzei v'nichnas at any time of day or night.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2017, 07:33:19 PM
was this for a Pesach run (tmidi needed) or for a regular Kosher run? i.e. Coca Cola and most national year-round cold and all-parve locations don't have mashgichei t'midim in an all-kosher facility, just regular checks, access and yotzei v'nichnas at any time of day or night.
Kosher L'Pesach run.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CS1 on April 24, 2017, 07:37:51 PM
Kosher L'Pesach run.

yes. That is definitely an issue if it was a KFP run, especially in a non-certified-Kosher plant. Some Mashgichim are paid $500-$600+ per day specifically to be there at the start of the run and to visually supervise all components. (This is why many KFP product cost more than similar year-round products.)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 24, 2017, 07:38:59 PM
was this for a Pesach run (tmidi needed) or for a regular Kosher run? i.e. Coca Cola and most national year-round cold and all-parve locations don't have mashgichei t'midim in an all-kosher facility, just regular checks, access and yotzei v'nichnas at any time of day or night.
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CS1 on April 24, 2017, 07:44:58 PM
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them

there are many reasons why these circumstances are different from a Kashrus policy standpoint. One main Halachic reason for this is because all year, the items can be "batul b'shishim" and the products may still be kosher. For Pesach, even a mashehu is chometz.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 24, 2017, 07:45:42 PM
there are many reasons why these circumstances are different from a Kashrus policy standpoint. One main Halachic reason for this is because all year, the items can be "batul b'shishim" and the products may still be kosher. For Pesach, even a mashehu is chometz.
Not if it happened before pesach
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CS1 on April 24, 2017, 08:41:55 PM
Not if it happened before pesach

if it's a worker eating a sandwich before Pesach during a pre-Pesach-run vs. a non-Pesach regular run, then it's definitely a lot more serious from a Kashrus standpoint. Therefore I believe that a Mashgiach temidi is needed from most KFP packing runs and not as many cold-Pareve packing runs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 24, 2017, 08:55:22 PM
if it's a worker eating a sandwich before Pesach during a pre-Pesach-run vs. a non-Pesach regular run, then it's definitely a lot more serious from a Kashrus standpoint. Therefore I believe that a Mashgiach temidi is needed from most KFP packing runs and not as many cold-Pareve packing runs.
it should not be worse than him eating non kosher meat.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 25, 2017, 09:39:30 AM
Why does KFP need tmidi more that all year? Some products may need it for practical purposes but soda may not be one of them
All ou P products have a tmidi, whether it makes sense or not. I'd imagine same is true of other agencies
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 10:21:22 AM
Not if it happened before pesach

Even before Pesach, Chametz wouldn't be Batel if it's B'ein (you can distinguish it).

it should not be worse than him eating non kosher meat.

As stated earlier in this thread, the Shiur for Chametz is a Mashehu, as opposed to meat which is a Kazayis (IINM).
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 10:44:05 AM
Even before Pesach, Chametz wouldn't be Batel if it's B'ein (you can distinguish it).

As stated earlier in this thread, the Shiur for Chametz is a Mashehu, as opposed to meat which is a Kazayis (IINM).
You mean that it would be chozer vnei'ur and therefore effectively still be bimashehu. THat would not apply to a drink production which would be lach bilach and therefore not chozer vinei'ur. That would be batel bishishim just like the flavor of meat.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 10:58:34 AM
You mean that it would be chozer vnei'ur and therefore effectively still be bimashehu. THat would not apply to a drink production which would be lach bilach and therefore not chozer vinei'ur. That would be batel bishishim just like the flavor of meat.

A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2017, 11:01:38 AM
A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
In theory you might be right, but practically when was the last time you encountered any solids in a soda bottle?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 11:12:52 AM
A crumb or piece that falls in and doesn't get noticed is not lach b'lach. If it's lach b'lach then it probably wouldn't be considered b'ein in the first place.
A crumb that you would not notice is certainly lach bilach. Even one that is noticeable when right in front but can't be seen in a huge container is lach bilach according to many poskim.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 11:18:41 AM
In theory you might be right, but practically when was the last time you encountered any solids in a soda bottle?

So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

A crumb that you would not notice is certainly lach bilach. Even one that is noticeable when right in front but can't be seen in a huge container is lach bilach according to many poskim.

For the last time, b'ein literally means visible.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 11:28:49 AM
So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

For the last time, b'ein literally means visible.
There is no reason to be concerned about a piece of bread stuck in a bottle cap.
That depends how you define visible. A wheat kernel mixed into a sack is visible but not discernible and is batel b'shishim.

Bottom line is that there is no real concern of chometz bimashehu in a soda production which would require tmidi.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 12:29:31 PM
There is no reason to be concerned about a piece of bread stuck in a bottle cap.
That depends how you define visible. A wheat kernel mixed into a sack is visible but not discernible and is batel b'shishim.

I was under the impression that if it can be removed it's considered b'ein...

What's the wheat mixed into that it isn't discernible?

To be completely thorough though, (dry) wheat isn't chometz in and of itself.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 01:05:34 PM
I was under the impression that if it can be removed it's considered b'ein...

What's the wheat mixed into that it isn't discernible?

To be completely thorough though, (dry) wheat isn't chometz in and of itself.
Other wheat kernels, but some are mivukaos or tzomchu
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 07:32:04 PM
Other wheat kernels, but some are mivukaos or tzomchu

This isn't Gemara.

You generalized that Chametz is batel before Pesach, ostensibly as an explanation for why a KPF product wouldn't necessarily need a mashgiach tmidi. I offered you an exception which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Somehow I followed you down some rabbit-hole relating to one grains getting lost amongst another grain, even if you found an exception to my exception it doesn't change the fact that not all Chametz is batel before Pesach.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2017, 07:34:41 PM
So it's rare, but if there's a piece of bread stuck in the bottle cap that's outright Chometz. Are you going to start telling me it isn't a problem because the bottle is upright?

Do they have a mashgiach temidi at the production of the caps, or are all caps inspected by the mashgiach?

Bottom line, the need for a mashgiach temidi at KFP soda bottling is almost like the need for DW to have kids clean the nooks and crannies of furniture with toothbrushes and q-tips (after they have been thoroughly cleaned by conventional means). However, both make people happy and keep people busy. Some people are happy to see the mashgiach (and it keeps him busy), and others feel the need to know that the furniture was cleaned with a toothbrush and q-tip (which keeps the kids busy).

ETA: unless it's done in a plant like this  (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VbIkALTrc3k)which I doubt.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CS1 on April 25, 2017, 07:36:06 PM
This isn't Gemara.

You generalized that Chametz is batel before Pesach, ostensibly as an explanation for why a KPF product wouldn't necessarily need a mashgiach tmidi. I offered you an exception which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Somehow I followed you down some rabbit-hole relating to one grains getting lost amongst another grain, even if you found an exception to my exception it doesn't change the fact that not all Chametz is batel before Pesach.

which is why most soda plants, chocolate plants, and other packing plants would probably require mashgiach tmidi pre-Pesach
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 07:40:03 PM
This isn't Gemara.

You generalized that Chametz is batel before Pesach, ostensibly as an explanation for why a KPF product wouldn't necessarily need a mashgiach tmidi. I offered you an exception which for some reason you refuse to acknowledge.

Somehow I followed you down some rabbit-hole relating to one grains getting lost amongst another grain, even if you found an exception to my exception it doesn't change the fact that not all Chametz is batel before Pesach.
We are talking about a soda production not all KFP products. In which case would soda be bimashehu?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 08:04:02 PM
We are talking about a soda production not all KFP products. In which case would soda be bimashehu?

We were talking about a soda plant with workers running around carrying Chametz. I've never seen a soda plant but ostensibly some of that Chametz could end up in the soda.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 08:05:48 PM
We were talking about a soda plant with workers running around carrying Chametz. I've never seen a soda plant but ostensibly some of that Chametz could end up in the soda.
That is the case about which I wrote that even if that does happen (highly unlikely) it would not be bimashehu. I stand by that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 08:09:05 PM
That is the case about which I wrote that even if that does happen (highly unlikely) it would not be bimashehu. I stand by that.

And I question that assertion. I'm going to agree to disagree, even if you disagree to agree to disagree.

P.s. I have a new siggy, thanks aygart.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 08:12:24 PM
And I question that assertion. I'm going to agree to disagree, even if you disagree to agree to disagree.

P.s. I have a new siggy, thanks aygart.
I have no problem with you disagreeing, but I still do not know in which case it would not be lach bilach. You haven't yet given one. If you did then maybe we would agree to agree.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chaimmayer on April 25, 2017, 09:38:22 PM
I once heard a shiur from the head of a kashrus agency.  He said that chametz before Pesach is batel (as stated above ) but no reliable kashrus agency relies on that when giving their kfp certification.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 09:47:19 PM
You haven't yet given one.

Asked and answered (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=76224.msg1719346#msg1719346)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 25, 2017, 09:50:26 PM
Asked and answered (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=76224.msg1719346#msg1719346)
To which I answered that it would depend what you call visible and ExGingi answered that you never see solids in a soda. The possibility of a slice of bread floating in a soda bottle is not something which they need to worry about.

ETA: let's leave it here instead of going in circles. If I would get called with the shailo that would be my psak
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: whYME on April 25, 2017, 10:11:56 PM
Whether or not the mashgiach is actually needed in this case is not really relevent IMO. What's relevant is that FWIU the run was not supposed to happen without a mashgiach there and nobody cared to (or was able to) enforce that. Are we really letting the goyishe workers decide when the mashgiach is really needed or not?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: henche on April 25, 2017, 11:17:01 PM
This is how fun threads die.

Alone,  friendless,  and kvetching about crumbs in the soda
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 11:41:03 PM
This is how fun threads die.

Alone,  friendless,  and kvetching about crumbs in the soda

Someone stepped out of Kav.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2017, 11:43:54 PM
Someone stepped out of Kav.
ALOL. Wrong thread.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 11:45:00 PM
ALOL. Wrong thread.

It's a gavra response, not a treftsa response.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2017, 11:48:55 PM
It's a gavra response, not a treftsa response.
Can't you just type Hebrew (or Aramaic, or Yiddish) words using the Hebrew alphabet? I have a problem with the transliterations.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 25, 2017, 11:51:35 PM
Can't you just type Hebrew (or Aramaic, or Yiddish) words using the Hebrew alphabet? I have a problem with the transliterations.

You're blaming me for your inability to read? At least you can write :P
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2017, 11:53:44 PM
You're blaming me for your inability to read? At least you can write :P
I didn't attend PIT, so how should I be able to read?  :P

The problem is when there's a dissonance between the language and the alphabet used.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on April 26, 2017, 12:03:45 AM
I didn't attend PIT, so how should I be able to read?  :P

ALOL. Wrong thread.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: daybyday on April 26, 2017, 10:39:42 AM
This is how fun threads die.

Alone,  friendless,  and kvetching about crumbs in the soda
Yup topic got hijacked into a deep halachic discussion, which interests about no-one..  :o
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 26, 2017, 10:41:28 AM
Yup topic got hijacked into a deep halachic discussion, which interests about no-one..  :o
see my sig
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 26, 2017, 11:32:54 AM
Yup topic got hijacked into a deep halachic discussion, which interests about no-one..  :o

Why haven't the admins moved it into the Halacha thread?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 26, 2017, 11:53:09 AM
Why haven't the admins moved it into the Halacha thread?
To make the posts count?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 30, 2017, 01:17:28 AM
I guess the goyishe world gets their fair share of similar horror stories.

https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2017-04-28/coachella-for-the-super-rich-ends-in-disaster
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Knak Yankel on May 09, 2017, 09:26:21 AM
http://www.greatkosherrestaurants.com/passover.php
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: AsherO on May 09, 2017, 09:30:15 AM
http://www.greatkosherrestaurants.com/passover.php

Match made in Scamville.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on December 31, 2017, 04:19:10 PM
I was there.

The program was complete chaos and disorganization. I was there last year as well and while the food was awful, there was plenty of it and we had a nice time since the property is gorgeous and we enjoyed the crowd. This year was just ridiculous. Not enough food, no tea room, nobody to talk to about the multiple issues.

Regarding the article above, the story was that the hotel gave the program a bill of about $250k at the end of the program for services they claimed they provided (on top of what the program had already paid them) which the program claimed was inaccurate. The program owner slipped out of the hotel at 4AM after chag.

We checked out early since our flight was early afternoon and all was fine. About 1pm the hotel realized that the owner of the program had skipped town and so they started detaining guests and refusing to allow them to leave the property without paying extravagant amounts, from $5k-$35k per family...

The property is about a mile or more off the main road. There is a long road (about 5-10 minutes) once you get off the highway to the property. There are 3 security checkpoints along that road and they do not let you off the property without a pass from the hotel showing you are paid up in full.

As far as I know everyone left, paid with their Amex cards and are planning to dispute these charges.
Was anyone at their other program, "Pardes Pesach" in San Diego?
In our case we just trusted. They were running 2 programs this year and did so last year as well. Most ppl are reputable. In this case they were unfortunately not. We went on KMR before and that was really top quality!
Anyone have any knowledge of the CA program for this group? Was it well run? Did they take responsibility?
PM's welcome
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: YesThatsMe on April 11, 2019, 04:18:59 PM
Bump. Any stories this year?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: gozalim on April 11, 2019, 10:49:58 PM
Bump. Any stories this year?
too early
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: lubaby on April 23, 2019, 06:55:51 AM
too early
Not anymore :(
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Afrages6 on April 23, 2019, 07:51:12 AM
Bump. Any stories this year?

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: jye on April 23, 2019, 11:56:01 AM
https://www.dansdeals.com/advertisement/enjoy-passover-orlando-different-pesach-program-save-20-off-rack-rates/

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: knowitall on April 23, 2019, 01:25:25 PM

Does anyone know what happened?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Joel2 on April 23, 2019, 01:51:07 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/advertisement/enjoy-passover-orlando-different-pesach-program-save-20-off-rack-rates/
Look at the ad, under new management
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mochjas on April 23, 2019, 01:54:11 PM
Does anyone know what happened?
From what I am hearing they had this program last year and didnt pay the complex all that they owe them for the villas and the meeting spaces.

They made the program this year "claiming" it was new management. The owners saw it was the same people and are starting to kick everyone out. They were already kicked out of the public spaces and I saw a report that they are starting to throw them out of villas today
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 23, 2019, 09:16:12 PM
Apparently the communal shul and kitchen was shut down. I'm hearing mixed reports about people in the villas but last I heard anyone who wants to stay and deal with their own food can do so.

What I don't understand is how the program even got this far without payment most places require 100% payment in full before the guests come.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yelped on April 23, 2019, 09:23:59 PM
If the management can't be trusted to even fulfill their basic obligations of paying for their occupancy then how can they be trusted in terms of Kashrus?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: th0306 on April 23, 2019, 10:05:28 PM
If the management can't be trusted to even fulfill their basic obligations of paying for their occupancy then how can they be trusted in terms of Kashrus?
That's because the management is not the one who is trusted with Kashrus - it's the Kashrus organization.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 23, 2019, 10:07:31 PM
That's because the management is not the one who is trusted with Kashrus - it's the Kashrus organization.
Mamagement determined to cheat can deceive a kasharus organization. Faking invoices, forging seals etc.

I'm not saying this program is doing that, I'm saying it's not impossible to get around a kasharus organization.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 23, 2019, 10:12:32 PM
That's because the management is not the one who is trusted with Kashrus - it's the Kashrus organization.
The "Kashrus Organization", assuming such exists, rather than an individual providing the supervision, needs to be able to trust the owners prior to even considering certifying or supervising Kashrus.

I heard of someone who wanted to get a certain Kashrus Organization certification for ab establishment (year round, not Pesach). Since the proprietor was a שנה ופרש, to the extent that he even had semicha, the Kashrus Organization refused to consider it unless he had a bone fide partner they would be willing to trust.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: churnbabychurn on April 23, 2019, 10:20:48 PM
The "Kashrus Organization", assuming such exists, rather than an individual providing the supervision, needs to be able to trust the owners prior to even considering certifying or supervising Kashrus.

I heard of someone who wanted to get a certain Kashrus Organization certification for ab establishment (year round, not Pesach). Since the proprietor was a שנה ופרש, to the extent that he even had semicha, the Kashrus Organization refused to consider it unless he had a bone fide partner they would be willing to trust.
Quite a few kashrus orgs won't give a hechsher to non shomer shabbos food establishments period. (Piresh or not). Other kashrus orgs do
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yelped on April 23, 2019, 10:38:45 PM
That's because the management is not the one who is trusted with Kashrus - it's the Kashrus organization.
There is no way a Kashrus organization can reliably certify someone if said person is a crook and a thief.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 24, 2019, 11:33:28 AM
A business can also pass a $100 bill to the Mashgiach to look the other way, especially if the Mashgiach could rationalize something as only a Chumra. Not every Mashgiach is the most scrupulous person in the world, especially since there's probably so much demand on the agencies to staff all of these programs 18 hours a day for almost 2 weeks.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 24, 2019, 01:28:00 PM
https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/let-my-people-stay/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: moko on April 24, 2019, 01:33:31 PM
A business can also pass a $100 bill to the Mashgiach to look the other way, especially if the Mashgiach could rationalize something as only a Chumra. Not every Mashgiach is the most scrupulous person in the world, especially since there's probably so much demand on the agencies to staff all of these programs 18 24 hours a day for almost 2 weeks.
ftfy
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 24, 2019, 01:35:06 PM
ftfy
Yeah, I guess. I wouldn't blame an agency for not wanting to go near these programs, a
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Afrages6 on April 24, 2019, 01:49:06 PM
https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/let-my-people-stay/
Sounds like Fyre festival
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: th0306 on April 24, 2019, 02:03:42 PM
Anyone on DDF at this program?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 24, 2019, 02:19:26 PM
Yeah, I guess. I wouldn't blame an agency for not wanting to go near these programs, a

There should probably be a certain mashgichim per guests ratio that is needed in order to provide proper supervision.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yelped on April 24, 2019, 03:00:20 PM
https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/let-my-people-stay/
What a ganev. Wonder how he escaped jail the first time 16 years ago.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 24, 2019, 03:19:49 PM
What a ganev. Wonder how he escaped jail the first time 16 years ago.
Not every civil case is pursued in criminal court if payment is made.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: eve on April 24, 2019, 09:28:10 PM
For those I interested I am at This resort although not part of the Pesach program. Although it is true there are some very dishonest people there are also mostly wonderful Jews. The other Jews in the resort offered help immediately with food of every kind. The managers and staff from the program stayed on for free and had several meetings with the group and with other Pesach programs in the area who provided help and expertise. Some hidden even paid for the villas so that everyone could stay where they were. At the end of the day I witnessed how wonderful the Jewish nation is and how fast we are to help another Jew in need. Boruch Hashem the management and staff has figured out how to continue the program (with several adjustments) until the end of Yom Tov. Mi K’amcha Yisroel!!!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 24, 2019, 09:29:08 PM
For those I interested I am at This resort although not part of the Pesach program. Although it is true there are some very dishonest people there are also mostly wonderful Jews. The other Jews in the resort offered help immediately with food of every kind. The managers and staff from the program stayed on for free and had several meetings with the group and with other Pesach programs in the area who provided help and expertise. Some hidden even paid for the villas so that everyone could stay where they were. At the end of the day I witnessed how wonderful the Jewish nation is and how fast we are to help another Jew in need. Boruch Hashem the management and staff has figured out how to continue the program (with several adjustments) until the end of Yom Tov. Mi K’amcha Yisroel!!!
Beautiful!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 24, 2019, 10:11:06 PM
For those I interested I am at This resort although not part of the Pesach program. Although it is true there are some very dishonest people there are also mostly wonderful Jews. The other Jews in the resort offered help immediately with food of every kind. The managers and staff from the program stayed on for free and had several meetings with the group and with other Pesach programs in the area who provided help and expertise. Some hidden even paid for the villas so that everyone could stay where they were. At the end of the day I witnessed how wonderful the Jewish nation is and how fast we are to help another Jew in need. Boruch Hashem the management and staff has figured out how to continue the program (with several adjustments) until the end of Yom Tov. Mi K’amcha Yisroel!!!

Which goes to show that the vast overwhelming majority of Jews will do the right thing, and go out of their way to help other Jews who are in a difficult situation.

Indeed, מי כעמך ישראל!
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2019, 10:16:10 PM
Probably will never happen but it would stop a lot of crisis' if programs would split the hotel charge from the catering charges and have the guests pay the hotel directly for the room.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yelped on April 24, 2019, 10:17:16 PM
Probably will never happen but it would stop a lot of crisis' if programs would split the hotel charge from the catering charges and have the guests pay the hotel directly for the room.
Wouldn't happen because then programs won't be able to charge as much.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 24, 2019, 10:18:02 PM
Wouldn't happen because then programs won't be able to charge as much.
Exactly. Crazy that new shutdowns seemingly happen every year.
I'm enjoying Pesach at home. A basement Pesach kitchen was a small investment compared to these programs.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2019, 10:22:39 PM
Wouldn't happen because then programs won't be able to charge as much.

Not so sure, people are not oblivious to the fact that that the programs are making a mint, just look at the cost of the rooms a week after Pesach. People know they are paying for the program, not for a room. Again I don't think it will ever happen, but perhaps if someone wants to start a program they can use it to build trust.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zagguru on April 24, 2019, 10:25:40 PM
Not so sure, people are not oblivious to the fact that that the programs are making a mint, just look at the cost of the rooms a week after Pesach. People know they are paying for the program, not for a room. Again I don't think it will ever happen, but perhaps if someone wants to start a program they can use it to build trust.

If someone wants to be a crook, they can do it a 100 different ways
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: yuneeq on April 24, 2019, 10:28:52 PM
If someone wants to be a crook, they can do it a 100 different ways

Agreed, this will give guests peace of mind when trying someone new, not necessarily a crook. And if they get unlucky, at the very least they will have some room insurance for the same price.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: knowitall on April 24, 2019, 10:35:56 PM
Exactly. Crazy that new shutdowns seemingly happen every year.
I'm enjoying Pesach at home. A basement Pesach kitchen was a small investment compared to these programs.
Other bonuses include being able to go to Fun N stuff and Tribe games on chol hamoed  :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 24, 2019, 10:40:38 PM
Other bonuses include being able to go to Fun N stuff and Tribe games on chol hamoed  :)
Stalker ;)
But you missed the Holden Arboretum and swimming at the last of my HP 5K ressies.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Yehudaa on April 24, 2019, 10:42:29 PM
Other bonuses include being able to go to Fun N stuff and Tribe games on chol hamoed  :)
You really do seem to know it all :)
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2019, 11:08:08 PM
Exactly. Crazy that new shutdowns seemingly happen every year.
I'm enjoying Pesach at home. A basement Pesach kitchen was a small investment compared to these programs.
I dont understand pesach kitchens in the basement. It's not insanely annoying to carry all your food up and down all pesach?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 24, 2019, 11:10:02 PM
I dont understand pesach kitchens in the basement. It's not insanely annoying to carry all your food up and down all pesach?
We do all of our meals in the basement for the week. The main point was so that Mimi could leisurely cook the month before Pesach for 20 people eating for a week, without turning over the main kitchen.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: aygart on April 24, 2019, 11:10:38 PM
I dont understand pesach kitchens in the basement. It's not insanely annoying to carry all your food up and down all pesach?
Your kitchen can be kashered in addition. It allows you to start preparing earlier
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: grodnoking on April 24, 2019, 11:15:02 PM
We do all of our meals in the basement for the week. The main point was so that Mimi could leisurely cook for 20 people eating for a week the month before Pesach without turning over the main kitchen.
Interesting...
Your kitchen can be kashered in addition. It allows you to start preparing earlier
I don't think I'd be able to cook in such a small place that most people have sa thier pesach kitchens.

I have seen one that was a small room off then main kitchen, which I think is genius, but you need to have enough room for that.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cmey on April 25, 2019, 12:48:09 AM
Exactly. Crazy that new shutdowns seemingly happen every year.
I'm enjoying Pesach at home. A basement Pesach kitchen was a small investment compared to these programs.

Nice! That’s definitely on my list, but right now we need the income from the basement rental. Turning over three days before pesach and cooking everything then can be a challenge, but having a couple of teenage girls who love to pitch in really pulls us through....
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on April 25, 2019, 10:27:40 AM
This is getting insane.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1530433370590879/permalink/2067999666834244/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: knowitall on April 25, 2019, 11:00:01 AM
This is getting insane.

https://www.facebook.com/groups/1530433370590879/permalink/2067999666834244/
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g47994-d99005-r477383944-Hudson_Valley_Resort_and_Spa-Kerhonkson_Catskill_Region_New_York.html
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on April 25, 2019, 11:29:19 AM
https://www.tripadvisor.com/ShowUserReviews-g47994-d99005-r477383944-Hudson_Valley_Resort_and_Spa-Kerhonkson_Catskill_Region_New_York.html

That was the last year he did his program there. The next year, one of the people working for him tried to take over, and it was cancelled a couple of days before Pesach
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on April 25, 2019, 12:47:29 PM
Pathetic, time for a jcw for pesach program frauds.

He should be paying out of pocket from what should have been his profits and even take a loss.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 25, 2019, 01:05:06 PM
As long as a program doesn't accidently serve Kitniyot, they'll survive.


Video no longer available, but Red Heifer accidently used Kitniyot splenda, and a women started throwing food and plates at the waiters.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2019, 01:12:19 PM
As long as a program doesn't accidently serve Kitniyot, they'll survive.


Video no longer available, but Red Heifer accidently used Kitniyot splenda, and a women started throwing food and plates at the waiters.
Video is circulating on WhatsApp and another one of someone trying to calm her down, while a male (possibly her husband) is agreeing that her behavior is not OK, but it is also not OK to serve him kitniyot.

My guess is that the excessive reaction is related to Sholom Bayis arguments over participating in the program.

However, this fiasco just goes to show what is pretty obvious, that the vast majority of people participating in these programs don’t have Kashrus on top of their priority list. It’s more like a checkbox item.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: cmey on April 25, 2019, 01:13:41 PM
As long as a program doesn't accidently serve Kitniyot, they'll survive.


Video no longer available, but Red Heifer accidently used Kitniyot splenda, and a women started throwing food and plates at the waiters.

Stop it already! That wasn’t the whole story and the woman apparently has emotional issues. Better to look the other way when someone is suffering than to point and jeer.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: knowitall on April 25, 2019, 01:22:15 PM
Video is circulating on WhatsApp and another one of someone trying to calm her down, while a male (possibly her husband) is agreeing that her behavior is not OK, but it is also not OK to serve him kitniyot.

My guess is that the excessive reaction is related to Sholom Bayis arguments over participating in the program.

However, this fiasco just goes to show what is pretty obvious, that the vast majority of people participating in these programs don’t have Kashrus on top of their priority list. It’s more like a checkbox item.
Why are you jumping to conclusions?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 25, 2019, 01:32:22 PM
Why are you jumping to conclusions?
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Menachem613 on April 25, 2019, 01:39:18 PM
Stop it already! That wasn’t the whole story and the woman apparently has emotional issues. Better to look the other way when someone is suffering than to point and jeer.

Saying she has emotional issues isn’t doing her much of a favor either.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 25, 2019, 02:21:53 PM


My guess is that the excessive reaction is related to Sholom Bayis arguments over participating in the program.
Not sure why you feel the need to throw in your random assumptions about things that are totally inconsequential. Whether this is true or not has absolutely no bearing on anything that we should be discussing on this forum.

Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 25, 2019, 02:28:58 PM
If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck...
Regarding the actual issue, it sounds like one of the agencies in Mexico made a mistake. I'm not sure a local family in Mexico would have been better off if they relied on the same list.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Zalc on April 28, 2019, 12:45:05 AM
Heard a rumor that a program in the USA closed in middle this year due to the chef tampering with the food.
Did this actually happen?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 28, 2019, 12:48:40 AM
No. AFAIK there was no program in New Orleans
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: joey89 on April 28, 2019, 12:53:25 AM
No. AFAIK there was no program in New Orleans
+1.
None of the local rabbis heard of it either.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: ExGingi on April 28, 2019, 05:08:10 PM
Not sure why you feel the need to throw in your random assumptions about things that are totally inconsequential. Whether this is true or not has absolutely no bearing on anything that we should be discussing on this forum.

What makes you think that Sholom Bayis is inconsequential? I guess you must be talking from experience.

If that is inconsequential, what are the consequences of Pesach Program cancellations, scams and problems? Is it only money?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: mmgfarb on April 28, 2019, 05:12:16 PM
What makes you think that Sholom Bayis is inconsequential? I guess you must be talking from experience.

If that is inconsequential, what are the consequences of Pesach Program cancellations, scams and problems? Is it only money?
You completely missed my point.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: thaber on April 28, 2019, 06:31:41 PM
Bump. Any stories this year?
Well, this program closed down a couple weeks before yom tov. The other program in Newport Beach ended up doubling their guest list
Anyone have any knowledge of the CA program for this group? Was it well run? Did they take responsibility?
PM's welcome
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: stooges44 on May 01, 2019, 09:13:45 AM
https://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/let-my-people-stay/


https://www.queensjewishlink.com/index.php/local/26-community-corner/354-why-did-so-many-guests-at-this-year-s-a-different-pesach-program-say-it-was-one-of-their-best-pesachs-ever
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: skyguy918 on May 01, 2019, 10:44:51 AM

https://www.queensjewishlink.com/index.php/local/26-community-corner/354-why-did-so-many-guests-at-this-year-s-a-different-pesach-program-say-it-was-one-of-their-best-pesachs-ever
What a sorry excuse for spin.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on May 01, 2019, 10:47:43 AM
What a sorry excuse for spin.

huh ?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: skyguy918 on May 01, 2019, 10:50:08 AM
huh ?
Read the article. Seems like he's trying to deflect blame from the program owner and onto the property. I'm not buying it. Nothing he wrote there absolves the program owner in any way.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: knowitall on June 13, 2019, 03:56:39 PM
https://greaterlakewood.com/i-was-also-scammed-letter-from-heshy-goldstein-about-the-shavous-program-scammers/
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: Dan on June 13, 2019, 04:03:28 PM
Can't even trust Pesach drivers:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10162159390280227&set=a.139002140226&type=3&theater
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: skyguy918 on June 13, 2019, 05:14:52 PM
https://greaterlakewood.com/i-was-also-scammed-letter-from-heshy-goldstein-about-the-shavous-program-scammers/
Can't even trust Pesach drivers:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10162159390280227&set=a.139002140226&type=3&theater
Geez. I realize the purpose of each of these is to warn people off the 'scammers', but how do either of them expect people to keep doing business with them? If your judgement is bad enough for these kinds of things to happen around you...
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: gingyguy on June 13, 2019, 05:47:48 PM
Can't even trust Pesach drivers:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10162159390280227&set=a.139002140226&type=3&theater
sorry for being obtuse, but what is a preach driver?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: zh cohen on June 13, 2019, 06:12:14 PM
Can't even trust Pesach drivers:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10162159390280227&set=a.139002140226&type=3&theater

Screenshots for those of us that don't do Facebook?
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: CountValentine on June 13, 2019, 06:22:39 PM
Can't even trust Pesach drivers:
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=10162159390280227&set=a.139002140226&type=3&theater
I wonder how he really feels about the guy.
Title: Re: Pesach Program in Greece Cancelled Just Now!
Post by: chevron on June 14, 2019, 12:14:19 PM
https://greaterlakewood.com/i-was-also-scammed-letter-from-heshy-goldstein-about-the-shavous-program-scammers/

No contract signed, no money in escrow, no legal action ever against a Jew.

Sure these guys will keep scamming.