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Title: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aarony on May 02, 2017, 11:47:18 PM
One thing I did when I was an avel (and am trying to continue) is leave my cellphone at home or in my car.  I found that I davened better.  - even if the cellphone is totally turned off if it was in my pocket it was a distraction.  I figured if I am going to daven for the amud for 11 months, let me at least try to daven like a mentsh.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on May 02, 2017, 11:50:43 PM
One thing I did when I was an avel (and am trying to continue) is leave my cellphone at home or in my car.  I found that I davened better.  - even if the cellphone is totally turned off if it was in my pocket it was a distraction.  I figured if I am going to daven for the amud for 11 months, let me at least try to daven like a mentsh.
Wow. Kudos. I didn't make it that far...  :(
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Iz on May 02, 2017, 11:56:36 PM
One thing I did when I was an avel (and am trying to continue) is leave my cellphone at home or in my car.  I found that I davened better.  - even if the cellphone is totally turned off if it was in my pocket it was a distraction.  I figured if I am going to daven for the amud for 11 months, let me at least try to daven like a mentsh.
I don't understand the shuls that have phone lockers. Why can't you just shut it and leave it in your pocket? However, your post gives me some insight to answer this.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: myi on May 03, 2017, 01:39:18 AM
I don't understand the shuls that have phone lockers. Why can't you just shut it and leave it in your pocket? However, your post gives me some insight to answer this.
You know how it goes, you go in for a mincha and you will be done in 15 minutes why should I bother to shut my phone let it be on vibrate, and then while waiting for chasaras hashas you take it out and start to text your wife.
 You must have never heard rav Lazer ginsburg speak about this topic!
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: myi on May 03, 2017, 01:45:31 AM
One thing I did when I was an avel (and am trying to continue) is leave my cellphone at home or in my car.  I found that I davened better.  - even if the cellphone is totally turned off if it was in my pocket it was a distraction.  I figured if I am going to daven for the amud for 11 months, let me at least try to daven like a mentsh.
Wow, I must say I'm impressed, that's how it should be,really a beautiful thing.
 If only others would actually do the same.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2017, 09:12:16 AM
One thing I did when I was an avel (and am trying to continue) is leave my cellphone at home or in my car.  I found that I davened better.  - even if the cellphone is totally turned off if it was in my pocket it was a distraction.  I figured if I am going to daven for the amud for 11 months, let me at least try to daven like a mentsh.
While I am not sure what daven for the amud has to do with it, if it is simply that it gave the hisorerus to do it then that may be a bigger zechus for the neshama than your having davened for the amud. See 22 in the wiki.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 11:07:15 AM
One thing I did when I was an avel (and am trying to continue) is leave my cellphone at home or in my car.  I found that I davened better.  - even if the cellphone is totally turned off if it was in my pocket it was a distraction.  I figured if I am going to daven for the amud for 11 months, let me at least try to daven like a mentsh.
This deserves its own thread.

When I go for Shachris, I bury my phone in the tallis bag. It has happened to me that I forgot it there, and had to go back to get it, but being distracted in shul is by far worse. I would have loved to have cell-phone lockers in 770 (and have spoken to the Gaboim a few times about it, including offering to sponsor), so as to have a convenient solution for Mincha and Maariv.

IMHO, cell phones and talking in shul are major factors in the OTD pandemic. Think about it, if you were to go in from on the SCOTUS and be the only one in the chamber with the justices, given the opportunity to plead your case, would you have a side conversation? Would you allow your phone to ring, or even vibrate? What if you were to get an audience with Bill Gates, one-on-one to ask for participation from his foundation in a project. Would you have a side conversation? Would you allow your phone to ring, or even vibrate? What if Baron Trump would go into his father, who would stop everything in order to be present with his son, and give him full undivided attention, would Baron dare to have a side conversation or have a phone ring while his father has his eyes, ears and thoughts 100% towards him?

When we go into shul, we are one-on-one with Hashem. The above examples don't even come close to what that reality is!

ETA: I just added emphasis above to stress that we all know about דעת עליון and דעת תחתון. While in our physical eyes, material things might seem more real and possibly durable than things we only see בעיני השכל, the reality is the exact opposite!
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2017, 11:18:51 AM
This deserves its own thread.

When I go for Shachris, I bury my phone in the tallis bag. It has happened to me that I forgot it there, and had to go back to get it, but being distracted in shul is by far worse. I would have loved to have cell-phone lockers in 770 (and have spoken to the Gaboim a few times about it, including offering to sponsor), so as to have a convenient solution for Mincha and Maariv.

IMHO, cell phones and talking in shul are major factors in the OTD pandemic. Think about it, if you were to go in from on the SCOTUS and be the only one in the chamber with the justices, given the opportunity to plead your case. Would you have a side conversation? Would you allow your phone to ring, or even vibrate? What if you were to get an audience with Bill Gates, one-on-one to ask for participation from his foundation in a project. Would you have a side conversation? Would you allow your phone to ring, or even vibrate? What if Baron Trump would go into his father, who would stop everything in order to be present with his son, and give him full undivided attention, would Baron dare to have a side conversation or have a phone ring while his father has his eyes, ears and thoughts 100% towards him?

When we go into shul, we are one-on-one with Hashem. The above examples don't even come close to what that reality is!
VERY WELL PUT!!!
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 11:25:06 AM
VERY WELL PUT!!!
Please spread this idea. Who knows, if one teenager sees their parents thinking of their time in shul as per my post, that might save a yiddishe neshomo!
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2017, 11:35:54 AM
Please spread this idea. Who knows, if one teenager sees their parents thinking of their time in shul as per my post, that might save a yiddishe neshomo!
I do think though that the looking at a cell phone in a symptom not a cause.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 11:42:04 AM
I do think though that the looking at a cell phone in a symptom not a cause.
I would call it an attribute, rather than a symptom. Unfortunately we are blinded by what our eyes see. A few minutes or even seconds of התבוננות will go a long way to acknowledge true reality, which will affect our actions and behaviors.

The Rebbe advocated for a moment of silence in public schools. In our private schools, there's no reason to have that moment silent. The teachers can and should start the day (especially just before davening) with such a message, and as the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya, that, with a brief reminder once an hour, could help for the entire day.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: skyguy918 on May 03, 2017, 12:57:44 PM
I feel like there are a bunch of different discussions to be had re: cell phones and shul/bais medrash.

One thing that annoys me to no end is the people whose phones make noise in shul frequently. Personally, I leave my phone on vibrate all the time - plus, I guess I'm just not that popular, so I don't even have to worry about the noise from it vibrating (though it has happened on the rare occasion). If your phone rings a good percentage of the time that you come to shul (even 5% would be bad IMO), you should probably figure out a way to prevent that from happening.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 02:02:33 PM
I feel like there are a bunch of different discussions to be had re: cell phones and shul/bais medrash.

One thing that annoys me to no end is the people whose phones make noise in shul frequently. Personally, I leave my phone on vibrate all the time - plus, I guess I'm just not that popular, so I don't even have to worry about the noise from it vibrating (though it has happened on the rare occasion). If your phone rings a good percentage of the time that you come to shul (even 5% would be bad IMO), you should probably figure out a way to prevent that from happening.
I agree with you 100% (and have similar experience/usage), but feel that this is a totally separate discussion. The points I was making (and OP of this thread) are equally applicable if it's just a friend next to you, rather than a cell-phone.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 03, 2017, 03:50:12 PM
Just shut the phone off. Teach your kids some common sense and respect for others.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 04:21:01 PM
Just shut the phone off. Teach your kids some common sense and respect for others.
You're right, but for some reason it seems to be a challenge of high order in today's day and age.

I would add that this is also about self respect. Just imagine how embarrassed one would be if said behavior is caught on tape and played back to them, in context.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on May 03, 2017, 05:15:10 PM
Once when I was in shul I got so annoyed by someone talking loud on his phone during chazzaras hashatz. I felt like screaming at him "Let alone hashem, you don't give a damn about him anyway; but what about some mentchlichkeit??!!" People are so busy being proper toward others, but what happened when it came to such things?!

In today's world everything is in such haste that we don't have a second for piece-of-mind. At least these few moments that we have the opportunity to talk (or even to wander off into our thoughts), at least then it should be without distractions.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2017, 05:54:41 PM
Once when I was in shul I got so annoyed by someone talking loud on his phone during chazzaras hashatz. I felt like screaming at him "Let alone hashem, you don't give a damn about him anyway; but what about some mentchlichkeit??!!" People are so busy being proper toward others, but what happened when it came to such things?!

In today's world everything is in such haste that we don't have a second for piece-of-mind. At least these few moments that we have the opportunity to talk (or even to wander off into our thoughts), at least then it should be without distractions.
According to the poskim you probably should have.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 05:59:15 PM
According to the poskim you probably should have.
One shouldn't even be looking into a Sefer during Chazaras HaShatz.

(http://i.imgur.com/H3AwClC.png)

Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on May 03, 2017, 06:03:00 PM
Why is this in JS?  ???
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2017, 06:03:08 PM
One shouldn't even be looking into a Sefer during Chazaras HaShatz.
That is already a machlokes haposkim and also may be primarily referring to learning with saying the words and not just looking into a sefer.

R' Chaim Kanievsky writes that one who does shnayim mikro vechad targum during chazaras hashatz is not yotzei since it is a mitzva habo biaveiro.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 03, 2017, 06:03:46 PM
Why is this in JS?  ???
Thats where all the important conversations go.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: elit on May 03, 2017, 08:38:56 PM
This deserves its own thread.

When I go for Shachris, I bury my phone in the tallis bag. It has happened to me that I forgot it there, and had to go back to get it, but being distracted in shul is by far worse. I would have loved to have cell-phone lockers in 770 (and have spoken to the Gaboim a few times about it, including offering to sponsor), so as to have a convenient solution for Mincha and Maariv.

IMHO, cell phones and talking in shul are major factors in the OTD pandemic. Think about it, if you were to go in from on the SCOTUS and be the only one in the chamber with the justices, given the opportunity to plead your case, would you have a side conversation? Would you allow your phone to ring, or even vibrate? What if you were to get an audience with Bill Gates, one-on-one to ask for participation from his foundation in a project. Would you have a side conversation? Would you allow your phone to ring, or even vibrate? What if Baron Trump would go into his father, who would stop everything in order to be present with his son, and give him full undivided attention, would Baron dare to have a side conversation or have a phone ring while his father has his eyes, ears and thoughts 100% towards him?

When we go into shul, we are one-on-one with Hashem. The above examples don't even come close to what that reality is!

ETA: I just added emphasis above to stress that we all know about דעת עליון and דעת תחתון. While in our physical eyes, material things might seem more real and possibly durable than things we only see בעיני השכל, the reality is the exact opposite!
don't want to hijack this thread but major factor in the OTD epidemic???
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 09:08:21 PM
don't want to hijack this thread but major factor in the OTD epidemic???
Absolutely!

If a child sees his parent, or other adult, disrespect Hashem's presence (which the child is taught is everywhere and always), especially in Hashem's מקדש מעט, why would such a child have any more respect? And a child can easily take it further, sensing insencerity in the parent...
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 03, 2017, 09:16:10 PM
That is already a machlokes haposkim and also may be primarily referring to learning with saying the words and not just looking into a sefer.

R' Chaim Kanievsky writes that one who does shnayim mikro vechad targum during chazaras hashatz is not yotzei since it is a mitzva habo biaveiro.
The Alter Rebbe writes in the above quote ״ויכוין לכל ברכה מראשה ועד סופה״. That implies that even without saying words, one shouldn't be looking in a Sefer.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: yelped on May 03, 2017, 09:18:25 PM
The Alter Rebbe writes in the above quote ״ויכוין לכל ברכה מראשה ועד סופה״. That implies that even without saying words, one shouldn't be looking in a Seder.
The maharil used to yell at people who looked into a sefer  during davening. 'Nuff said.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 04, 2017, 12:25:36 AM
If a child sees his parent, or other adult, disrespect Hashem's presence (which the child is taught is everywhere and always), especially in Hashem's מקדש מעט, why would such a child have any more respect? And a child can easily take it further, sensing insencerity in the parent...
Do really feel they think it is a sign of disrespect?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: shmoe joe on May 04, 2017, 12:30:15 AM
Absolutely!

If a child sees his parent, or other adult, disrespect Hashem's presence (which the child is taught is everywhere and always), especially in Hashem's מקדש מעט, why would such a child have any more respect? And a child can easily take it further, sensing insencerity in the parent...
kids are not stupid they know it's lack of thinking not disrespect. Most people when shmoozeing if you'll politely remind them they would stop.
P.s. You would make a good speaker!
Title: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 04, 2017, 12:36:43 AM
kids are not stupid they know it's lack of thinking not disrespect. Most people when shmoozeing if you'll politely remind them they would stop.
P.s. You would make a good speaker!
Most kids will be OK, but some will feel a cognitive dissonance. I am not saying it's a trigger, but I definitely think it has a big part.

I don't know where you daven, but unfortunately, as much as I love 770 and am proud of it, the talking situation in 770 leaves a lot to be desired.

I appreciate your compliment, though I wouldn't try to compete with Dan on the speakers circuit. I just have some things which I am extremely passionate about, and some people appreciate that (though I rarely speak in public).
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: shmoe joe on May 04, 2017, 12:39:21 AM
Most kids will be OK, but some will feel a cognitive dissonance. I am not saying it's a trigger, but I definitely think it has a big part.

I don't know where you daven, but unfortunately, as much as I love 770 and am proud of it, the talking situation in 770 leaves a lot to be desired.

I appreciate your compliment, though I wouldn't try to compete with Dan on the speakers circuit. I just have some things which I am extremely passionate about, and some people appreciate that (though I rarely speak in public).
no need to compete, we'll have 2 lol
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Yammer on May 04, 2017, 01:47:35 AM
Over a year now that the phone either gets turned off, silent, or left in the car.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: AsherO on May 04, 2017, 01:52:46 AM
I don't know where you daven, but unfortunately, as much as I love 770 and am proud of it, the talking situation in 770 leaves a lot to be desired.

Maybe people in 770 should be encouraged to look into seforim during Chazoras Hashatz, hopefully that won't do too much damage to their kids.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: myi on May 04, 2017, 04:28:57 AM
Maybe people in 770 should be encouraged to look into seforim during Chazoras Hashatz, hopefully that won't do too much damage to their kids.
Lol..
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: MosheP on May 04, 2017, 08:32:21 AM
Great that so many are aware and opposed to this epidemic ravaging our communities. Join me in taking the pledge, and be one of the fortunate ones taking a stand for the glory of hashem our king.

http://kvodshomayim.org/pledge.html (http://kvodshomayim.org/pledge.html)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: chevron on May 04, 2017, 02:27:12 PM
kids are not stupid they know it's lack of thinking not disrespect. Most people when shmoozeing if you'll politely remind them they would stop.
P.s. You would make a good speaker!

It depends who but a lot has to do with the parent. If a parent doesn't talk in shull, the child will generally be OK about being reminded to be quiet.

In my shull, you have guys dressing like chasidish bochurim, who manage to to hold conversations while simultaneously davening, they will sometimes break to daven with impressive shows of kavana.. Or you see guys have conversations while learning dvar malchus.

It really is one big reason of otd as we discussed in the swingers thread. It's just crum, Judaism as an empty shell.

It makes a mockery of the mikdash me-at, of tefillah, of god.

It pisses me off how the uber from litteraly spit at god, this is a epidemic in chabad (and pick up garbage tissues from the floor dammit ) yet I daven at modox shulls where women don't cover their hair, the mechitza is see through over 3 feet, and the women wear pants etc etc etc all and god forbid you would not catch these people talking in shull.

It's really why I struggle to much with orthodoxy and finding meaning, it's like Judaism is just a ritual, they would not be caught dead eating machine matza but meh talking during kaddish?  Who gives a hoot
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 04, 2017, 03:42:50 PM
That is something which friends on the shul. The ones I daven in do not really have much of an issue with talking or  using cell phones. The real thing is that  how the crowd dresses does not say much about their connecting with God
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 04, 2017, 04:05:05 PM
It depends who but a lot has to do with the parent. If a parent doesn't talk in shull, the child will generally be OK about being reminded to be quiet.

In my shull, you have guys dressing like chasidish bochurim, who manage to to hold conversations while simultaneously davening, they will sometimes break to daven with impressive shows of kavana.. Or you see guys have conversations while learning dvar malchus.

It really is one big reason of otd as we discussed in the swingers thread. It's just crum, Judaism as an empty shell.

It makes a mockery of the mikdash me-at, of tefillah, of god.

It pisses me off how the uber from litteraly spit at god, this is a epidemic in chabad (and pick up garbage tissues from the floor dammit ) yet I daven at modox shulls where women don't cover their hair, the mechitza is see through over 3 feet, and the women wear pants etc etc etc all and god forbid you would not catch these people talking in shull.

It's really why I struggle to much with orthodoxy and finding meaning, it's like Judaism is just a ritual, they would not be caught dead eating machine matza but meh talking during kaddish?  Who gives a hoot
Unfortunately, there's a lot of substance in what you write.

However, just being negative about it, or compromising something else, doesn't solve the problem.

I guess this is how and where the שטן manages to get a foothold, and the problem goes back more than 200 years, or else why would the Alter Rebbe write about it?

I have a good friend who is a Shliach somewhere in Eretz Yisroel. He told me that in his shul he had such an epidemic of cell-phones that he looked at several measures. Rather than post signs, enforce rules, etc. he opted to give a series of Shiurim about davening. He says it did wonders, cell-phone use in the shul became virtually extinct.

Unfortunately, we are all blinded by the world, and sometimes don't take the time to do some introspection and realize what the true reality is. Let's try to focus on positive ways to improve our own davening, and possibly influence people we come in contact with. That will go a lot further than whining, comlaining, or switching shuls.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on May 04, 2017, 05:07:36 PM
kids are not stupid they know it's lack of thinking not disrespect. Most people when shmoozeing if you'll politely remind them they would stop.
P.s. You would make a good speaker!
Ahemmmm... Say what? Unfortunately this is becoming less and less true. The amount of busha is diminishing by the minute. There are places where, sadly, you are looked down upon for being a "frummy" for not talking/quieting down others during davening.  :'(
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: skyguy918 on May 04, 2017, 05:32:57 PM
Since we're on the topic of talking in shul...

At my shul's melave malka/dinner, one of the speakers started with this (I'm paraphrasing): When the Rov asked me to speak, I said I didn't think it was a good idea - nobody wants to hear what I have to say. To which the Rov responded "They sure seem to want to hear what you have to say on Shabbos morning during davening!" 8)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 04, 2017, 05:45:11 PM
and the problem goes back more than 200 years, or else why would the Alter Rebbe write about it?

Not only that, but he is quoting poskim much earlier than him. I think the one line not in the SA or MGA is in the SHLA

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/50032a4cf7fe494117291e58fa1f3edd.png)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: NTorch on May 04, 2017, 06:00:06 PM
Rabbi Frand's Teshuva Derasha this past year was about the danger of smartphones.

R' Frand offered some suggestions for improvement based on this shiur:

1. Don't sleep with your cell phone nearby;
2. Don't let your children sleep with the cell phone in the room - they will spend half the night texting;
3. When learning with your children, don't have a cell phone nearby;
4. Don't allow the use of cellphones at meals;
5. Don't daven with your smartphone siddur.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: chevron on May 04, 2017, 06:41:44 PM
Ahemmmm... Say what? Unfortunately this is becoming less and less true. The amount of busha is diminishing by the minute. There are places where, sadly, you are looked down upon for being a "frummy" for not talking/quieting down others during davening.  :'(

The irony is, that the guy that shaves, tucks his tzitzis in, wife wears pants and doesnt cover her hair, wouldnt dream of talking in shull, but they have kiddish clubs to balance things out
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Sport on May 04, 2017, 07:19:54 PM
The irony is, that the guy that shaves, tucks his tzitzis in, wife wears pants and doesnt cover her hair, wouldnt dream of talking in shull, but they have kiddish clubs to balance things out
Please, you make it sound like this is an issue exclusive to yeshivish and the far right of orthodoxy. It may be more hypocritical for them but unfortunately  no segment of Judaism (or really anybody ) is not struggling with  this.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 04, 2017, 07:23:44 PM
The irony is, that the guy that shaves, tucks his tzitzis in, wife wears pants and doesnt cover her hair, wouldnt dream of talking in shull, but they have kiddish clubs to balance things out
To balance things out? Instead of talking he walks out for a drink.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: skyguy918 on May 04, 2017, 07:58:24 PM
Please, you make it sound like this is an issue exclusive to yeshivish and the far right of orthodoxy. It may be more hypocritical for them but unfortunately  no segment of Judaism (or really anybody ) is not struggling with  this.
+1. IME it's not any more of a problem in right wing orthodoxy than in modern orthodoxy. But on the flip side, it's a serious problem in all these circles.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: efflpetzel on May 04, 2017, 10:18:33 PM
On a similar note & I might get bashed for saying this but the thing that most distracts me most during davening are the hatzolah guys radios in shul wether it's shabbos or the rest of the week, they go off so loud & everyone then tried to hear the details of the call, on yom kipper they wear earpieces
Why can't they wear that every shabbos?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 04, 2017, 11:28:26 PM
Ahemmmm... Say what? Unfortunately this is becoming less and less true. The amount of busha is diminishing by the minute. There are places where, sadly, you are looked down upon for being a "frummy" for not talking/quieting down others during davening.  :'(
Unfortunately, I've seen/experienced the same. Maybe gaboim should request a group of people to go to the area where people are talking and just daven LOUD in order to disturb the conversation.

Not only that, but he is quoting poskim much earlier than him. I think the one line not in the SA or MGA is in the SHLA

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/50032a4cf7fe494117291e58fa1f3edd.png)

I wasn't referring to Halachic writings, but rather to THIS (http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/adhaz/tanya/4/24).

+1. IME it's not any more of a problem in right wing orthodoxy than in modern orthodoxy. But on the flip side, it's a serious problem in all these circles.

I won't mention names, but my friend, who's son was at Whistler for the first days of Pesach on the Mountain program, told me that his son told him about a certain father and son who were talking the entire Davening (contrasted by a certain giyores who was Davening every word from the siddur).
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 04, 2017, 11:51:20 PM
Unfortunately, I've seen/experienced the same. Maybe gaboim should request a group of people to go to the area where people are talking and just daven LOUD in order to disturb the conversation.

I wasn't referring to Halachic writings, but rather to THIS (http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/adhaz/tanya/4/24).

I won't mention names, but my friend, who's son was at Whistler for the first days of Pesach on the Mountain program, told me that his son told him about a certain father and son who were talking the entire Davening (contrasted by a certain giyores who was Davening every word from the siddur).
Either way, as powerful as that is,  the issue certainly predates it by quite a bit. It is well known that the Tosfos Yom Tov attributed the gzeiros tach vtat to people talking in shul.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: yelped on May 04, 2017, 11:58:32 PM
Either way, as powerful as that is,  the issue certainly predates it by quite a bit. It is well known that the Tosfos Yom Tov attributed the gzeiros tach vtat to people talking in shul.
As can be seen from the lashon of the mi shebeirach he made for those who are quiet in shul...
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 12:52:33 AM
Why am I shocked that this is a big problem?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 05, 2017, 01:45:13 AM

Why am I shocked that this is a big problem?
Go back to my lengthy post upthread. Now take the Baron Trump metaphor, and imagine that Baron got to do this 3 times a day. Baron also sees his siblings get the same treatment. He might at a certain point lose focus on how valuable his time with his father is, and not consciously appreciate it as much, unless he spends a moment or two before going into his father's chamber in introspect about his good fortune in being able to have that special audience with his father.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 01:54:13 AM
Go back to my lengthy post upthread. Now take the Baron Trump metaphor, and imagine that Baron got to do this 3 times a day. Baron also sees his siblings get the same treatment. He might at a certain point lose focus on how valuable his time with his father is, and not consciously appreciate it as much, unless he spends a moment or two before going into his father's chamber in introspect about his good fortune in being able to have that special audience with his father.
Here is why I am shocked. I always look at those that follow Judaism to adhere to their religion more than those of the religion I follow. I never see phones in use or even vibrate during our Sunday services.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: 12HRS on May 05, 2017, 01:59:11 AM
Here is why I am shocked. I always look at those that follow Judaism to adhere to their religion more than those of the religion I follow. I never see phones in use or even vibrate during our Sunday services.

its once a week on a sunday morning.

try doing it once a day in the middle of business hours and see what happens over time
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: mmgfarb on May 05, 2017, 01:59:28 AM
Here is why I am shocked. I always look at those that follow Judaism to adhere to their religion more than those of the religion I follow. I never see phones in use or even vibrate during our Sunday services.
Try doing it three times a day and I'd bet your see a lot more phones.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:00:13 AM
try doing it once a day in the middle of business hours and see what happens over time
Would not make any difference.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: 12HRS on May 05, 2017, 02:00:29 AM
Also you go with your wife. If I went to shul with my wife as crazy as it sounds I probably would be on a little better behavior.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:01:06 AM
Try doing it three times a day and I'd bet your see a lot more phones.
Probably see three times as many!
0 x 3 = 0  :P
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:01:53 AM
Also you go with your family wife.
;)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: yitrap on May 05, 2017, 02:03:13 AM
Would not make any difference.
Source?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:07:20 AM
Source?
Me.  :)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Emkay on May 05, 2017, 02:07:23 AM
Here is why I am shocked. I always look at those that follow Judaism to adhere to their religion more than those of the religion I follow. I never see phones in use or even vibrate during our Sunday services.
I have an answer to this yet frustratingly enough I can't figure out how to put it in writing in a way that would seem coherent. So I won't but I shall let it be known that an answer exists.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:08:38 AM
I have an answer to this yet frustratingly enough I can't figure out to to put it in writing in a way that would seem coherent. So I won't but I shall let it be known that an answer exists.
It is Friday and would love to hear it!
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: yitrap on May 05, 2017, 02:11:36 AM
Me.  :)
I humbly disagree. Like everything in life you become used to it, unless one is consistently putting an effort into growing in their connection with God they are sliding down - inevitably you will end up with your phone on during praying, at first just for that important phone call you've been waiting for and then on and on.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: 12HRS on May 05, 2017, 02:13:58 AM
I humbly disagree. Like everything in life you become used to it, unless one is consistently putting an effort into growing in their connection with God they are sliding down - inevitably you will end up with your phone on during praying, at first just for that important phone call you've been waiting for and then on and on.

those never come on a sunday morning  ;)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:16:45 AM
I humbly disagree.
I fully understand why you would.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:19:04 AM
those never come on a sunday morning  ;)
I used Sunday service as an example since that is when most will attend. There is services every day of the year and most of the time more than once a day. Also since when do you need to be in a place of worship to pray?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: cholent on May 05, 2017, 02:36:52 AM
Here is why I am shocked. I always look at those that follow Judaism to adhere to their religion more than those of the religion I follow. I never see phones in use or even vibrate during our Sunday services.
I appreciate the fact that you are shocked for this reason!

I think if you walked into a shul vs houses of worship of other religions you would see the difference and also why this happens. The entire atmosphere is different, less formal, more homey, more individual. In the early days of reform Judaism one thing they pushed was having decorum in a shul similar to that of what you're used to. While that seemed positive on the surface, it wasn't, because a shul is not a church and isn't meant to be.

None of this is to defend cell phones or talking in shul, both of which deeply disturb me
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:41:29 AM
I think if you walked into a shul vs houses of worship of other religions you would see the difference and also why this happens. The entire atmosphere is different, less formal, more homey, more individual.
+1 in a nutshell.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: thaber on May 05, 2017, 02:48:24 AM
Great that so many are aware and opposed to this epidemic ravaging our communities. Join me in taking the pledge, and be one of the fortunate ones taking a stand for the glory of hashem our king.

http://kvodshomayim.org/pledge.html (http://kvodshomayim.org/pledge.html)
I would suggest capitalizing His Name in a paragraph like that
The irony is, that the guy that shaves, tucks his tzitzis in, wife wears pants and doesnt cover her hair, wouldnt dream of talking in shull, but they have kiddish clubs to balance things out
I love how shaving and tucking in tzitzis is on par with pants and not covering hair
+1 in a nutshell.
One more point - in other religions the disinterested /but in the mood just don't show up, we don't really have that option
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 02:51:27 AM
One more point - in other religions the disinterested /but in the mood just don't show up, we don't really have that option
We have the pop ups. They pop up for Easter and Christmas.  :)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Emkay on May 05, 2017, 03:01:31 AM
I love how shaving and tucking in tzitzis is on par with pants and not covering hair.
Which is worse? I'm really not sure.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 03:03:56 AM
It is Friday so I get to ask, what's the problem with women wearing pants?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: cholent on May 05, 2017, 03:09:24 AM
It is Friday so I get to ask, what's the problem with women wearing pants?
According to most rabbis it is a violation of the prohibition of cross dressing, which is a direct Biblical commandment
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 03:12:01 AM
According to most rabbis it is a violation of the prohibition of cross dressing, which is a direct Biblical commandment
Did men even wear pants back then?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: cholent on May 05, 2017, 03:13:01 AM
Did men even wear pants back then?
Yes, read up on the priestly garments
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: thaber on May 05, 2017, 03:14:33 AM
It is Friday so I get to ask, what's the problem with women wearing pants?
Halachically considered male garb. Also considered by some to be inherently immodest.
Of interest:
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_trousers
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: Emkay on May 05, 2017, 05:34:20 AM
It is Friday so I get to ask, what's the problem with women wearing pants?
(Like everything in Judaism) it's debatable what the reason is nowadays but this is applicable.
מתני׳ ואלו יוצאות שלא בכתובה העוברת על דת משה ויהודית ואיזו היא דת משה מאכילתו שאינו מעושר ומשמשתו נדה ולא קוצה לה חלה ונודרת ואינה מקיימת ואיזוהי דת יהודית יוצאה וראשה פרוע וטווה בשוק ומדברת עם כל אדם אבא שאול אומר אף המקללת יולדיו בפניו רבי טרפון אומר אף הקולנית ואיזוהי קולנית לכשהיא מדברת בתוך ביתה ושכיניה שומעין קולה:
 
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: 12HRS on May 05, 2017, 07:59:09 AM

I think if you walked into a shul vs houses of worship of other religions you would see the difference and also why this happens. The entire atmosphere is different, less formal, more homey, more individual. In the early days of reform Judaism one thing they pushed was having decorum in a shul similar to that of what you're used to. While that seemed positive on the surface, it wasn't, because a shul is not a church and isn't meant to be.


I have never heard anything like this before. Why are we not supposed to be formal?
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 05, 2017, 08:54:08 AM
According to most rabbis it is a violation of the prohibition of cross dressing, which is a direct Biblical commandment
Source? I have not yet found one to say that today's women's pants which are tailored specifically for women are considered wearing men's clothing. THey may be there and I would not be surprised if they are since I have not really searched for it, but I have never seen it.

The reasoning I have seen is that it is considered immodest for her legs to be visible separately.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 05, 2017, 09:09:48 AM
Source? I have not yet found one to say that today's women's pants which are tailored specifically for women are considered wearing men's clothing. THey may be there and I would not be surprised if they are since I have not really searched for it, but I have never seen it.

The reasoning I have seen is that it is considered immodest for her legs to be visible separately.
Accurate!

Yemenite tradition is for women to wear (loose) pants under dresses/skirts for modesty purposes.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: MeirS on May 05, 2017, 10:00:08 AM
Why am I shocked that this is a big problem?
My response to CM and to this whole conversation would be similar to cholents but in different words.

In the ultra Orthodox shuls there is somewhat a feeling of a חסיד'ישע מלוה מלכה (I'll let someone else translate that one) which the leadership is for it to a certain extent. Therefore the leadership gives of mixed messages as to whether this is supposed to be a formal experience or not.
I will say that I personally see this experience much less in nusach Ashkenaz shuls be they MO or yeshivish.
I appreciate the fact that you are shocked for this reason!

I think if you walked into a shul vs houses of worship of other religions you would see the difference and also why this happens. The entire atmosphere is different, less formal, more homey, more individual. In the early days of reform Judaism one thing they pushed was having decorum in a shul similar to that of what you're used to. While that seemed positive on the surface, it wasn't, because a shul is not a church and isn't meant to be.

None of this is to defend cell phones or talking in shul, both of which deeply disturb me
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 05, 2017, 11:19:33 AM
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 05, 2017, 11:24:26 AM
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.
There are some of the Modox shuls with Cantors etc. which a definitely more formal, but I am under the impression that the nature of the services are different.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: chevron on May 05, 2017, 11:38:35 AM
BTW I cut my wine consumption in half so you'll need to reckon with a way may coherent me;)

First let's start with talking in shull, a chabad rabbi / shliach kind of justified it, nay he glorified it in an arutz sheva article a few years ago. He says that we are used to shull and we come so often it's like home (halevai people would ensure the shull was as clean and fixed up and fancy etc as their home)

Any ways, it all breaks down to serious discussion of why we daven, it's really not about how often you do it.  What's the point of going to shull if you are going to talk and disturb the tefilla ? Your chotey umachateh and you are certainly not getting any reward, what for, tefillah betzibur?! Ha!

I bring up pants and covering hair because there are as mentioned, different opinions that hold pants are OK.

Notice how people find reasons, excuses, logic, justification and even twisted praise for talking in shull.

Find me one posek that praises or allows talking in shull.

The truth is, I don't care what people do, but talking in shull is highly inconsiderate, Now imagine a shull where they talk but are supposedly frum so the women dress modestly, imagine if a woman went to the kiddish and was wearing a low cut shirt and short skirt etc they'd say well hey that's wrong and she should be considerate and dress modestly

I don't like praying in shull, I get bored fast, I like going to different shulls etc but ultimately people need to address why they pray, do you do it because it's considered the standard or you are used to it or do you pray because of the right reasons?  If people prayed for the right reasons, I'm sure they'd have more respect for prayer and the house of prayer.

For me, halacha aside, talking in shull is rude
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: chevron on May 05, 2017, 11:40:39 AM
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.

Maybe Sephardi shulls, but also modox shulls where there is more choral singing and community singing.

With many yeshivish or chasidic shulls with loud dawning it's like a free for all
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aygart on May 05, 2017, 11:50:06 AM

First let's start with talking in shull, a chabad rabbi / shliach kind of justified it, nay he glorified it in an arutz sheva article a few years ago. He says that we are used to shull and we come so often it's like home (halevai people would ensure the shull was as clean and fixed up and fancy etc as their home)
.......
Notice how people find reasons, excuses, logic, justification and even twisted praise for talking in shull.

Find me one posek that praises or allows talking in shull.
There are no poskim who praise or allow it. In fact in the entire SA this is the ONLY place where the mechaber writes gadol avono miniso-his sin is too great to carry. I did not see the article you are referring to, but I would take it Berditchiver style.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: ExGingi on May 05, 2017, 12:28:59 PM
There are no poskim who praise or allow it. In fact in the entire SA this is the ONLY place where the mechaber writes gadol avono miniso-his sin is too great to carry. I did not see the article you are referring to, but I would take it Berditchiver style.
+1

There's a story about a place where the Rov strongly admonished people from talking and socializing in shul. After a while, people started coming to the Rov with all kinds of problems that needed help. Turns out that during the talking/socializing in the shul, people were also helping each other.

To add to what you write about the mechaber, I will also point out that the only place in Tanya where the Alter Rebbe writes געוואלד געוואלד refers to proper davening. http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/adhaz/tanya/4/24
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: aarony on May 05, 2017, 02:28:48 PM
 I just want to point out that my comment that started this thread was originally  posted as a response in a different thread  and it was moved by the moderators.   The comment was originally posted that leaving my cellphone at home or in he car was something that helped me Daven better on a personal level.  it was never intended to be a condemnation  of other people who talk or have their cellphones on during davening.    Everyone needs to grow at their own pace and with in their own needs. 
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: skyguy918 on May 05, 2017, 03:44:15 PM
Maybe Sephardi shulls, but also modox shulls where there is more choral singing and community singing.

With many yeshivish or chasidic shulls with loud dawning it's like a free for all
I think it's telling that everyone in this thread is basically saying the same thing, including you, yet you have to make it about right-wing bashing.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: MeirS on May 05, 2017, 05:52:21 PM
Is there any formal settings in Judaism for prayer? Like a church to a Catholic as an example.

There are some of the Modox shuls with Cantors etc. which a definitely more formal, but I am under the impression that the nature of the services are different.

Maybe Sephardi shulls, but also modox shulls where there is more choral singing and community singing.

With many yeshivish or chasidic shulls with loud dawning it's like a free for all

I think it's telling that everyone in this thread is basically saying the same thing, including you, yet you have to make it about right-wing bashing.
I don't know what you guys are thinking but almost every Shul I've been to has some very formal settings to the prayers. You don't even realize how formal it is. Unless I totally misunderstood the question.
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: NTorch on May 10, 2017, 10:37:52 AM
Anyone know if they are still giving away free cell phone lockers for shuls who want to implement a no cell phone policy?

http://www.localjewishnews.com/2015/03/12/shul-phone-lockers/ (http://www.localjewishnews.com/2015/03/12/shul-phone-lockers/)
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: mrprez27 on August 12, 2019, 10:44:06 PM
Anyone know if they are still giving away free cell phone lockers for shuls who want to implement a no cell phone policy?

http://www.localjewishnews.com/2015/03/12/shul-phone-lockers/ (http://www.localjewishnews.com/2015/03/12/shul-phone-lockers/)

+1 (sorry for reviving a dead thread) also any new ideas to curb talking since 2017
Title: Re: Cell-phones/talking in Shul
Post by: stooges44 on August 13, 2019, 08:34:25 AM
+1 (sorry for reviving a dead thread) also any new ideas to curb talking since 2017

Don't be sorry, this is a very real and damaging situation that is only getting worse, the cell-phones anyway.