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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: stooges44 on May 15, 2017, 02:55:22 PM

Title: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: stooges44 on May 15, 2017, 02:55:22 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114262#comment-1312203

see #1
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on May 15, 2017, 03:01:44 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114262#comment-1312203

see #1
not sure what dan means there's no such thing as a bad jew
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: JACKBLUE on May 15, 2017, 03:02:55 PM
not sure what dan means there's no such thing as a bad jew
you have to learn some chasidus to understand!!
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on May 15, 2017, 03:04:38 PM
you have to learn some chasidus to understand!!
theres something called a mumar in my language whether you like it or not. Also there's no way in the world I'm ever learning chasidus. This being a classic example of twisting things the wrong way which end up contradicting chazal but hey it doesn't matter because it's chassidus
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: stooges44 on May 15, 2017, 03:05:40 PM
you have to learn some chasidus to understand!!

Hahaha! And dan did give a great answer
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: yelped on May 15, 2017, 03:16:07 PM
theres something called a mumar in my language whether you like it or not. Also there's no way in the world I'm ever learning chasidus. This being a classic example of twisting things the wrong way which end up contradicting chazal but hey it doesn't matter because it's chassidus
This comment belongs in this thread...
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: JACKBLUE on May 15, 2017, 03:17:37 PM
This comment belongs in this thread...
lol
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on May 15, 2017, 03:18:34 PM
This comment belongs in this thread...
why? The guy said I need to learn chassidus to understand. What does it say there? That a Jew who doesn't keep the Torah is not a bad Jew?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: JACKBLUE on May 15, 2017, 03:20:16 PM
why? The guy said I need to learn chassidus to understand. What does it say there? That a Jew who doesn't keep the Torah is not a bad Jew?
no! But Dan said there's no such a thing as bad Jew! I was referring to that point! A Jew doesn't see a Jew as bad even it looks like he's bad!
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 15, 2017, 03:40:04 PM
A Jew doesn't see a Jew as bad even it looks like he's bad!
I wonder if you know who was a Jew if that would hold true?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: joe1234 on May 15, 2017, 04:06:10 PM
guys relax! theres nothing wrong with a little kiruv.... that guy obviously needed that response...
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on May 15, 2017, 04:13:58 PM
why? The guy said I need to learn chassidus to understand. What does it say there? That a Jew who doesn't keep the Torah is not a bad Jew?
May I suggest you read http://bektzara.blogspot.com/2013/04/blog-post_4693.html (no learning chassidus required).
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on May 16, 2017, 06:02:04 PM
This comment belongs in this (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=48901.0) thread...
FTFY?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: stooges44 on May 18, 2017, 02:48:21 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312932

Hahahahah!
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: as2 on May 18, 2017, 02:57:07 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312932

Hahahahah!
Can we please all call her?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: SearchGuy on May 18, 2017, 03:03:16 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312932

Hahahahah!
You will get her Album free plus signed, HURRY...  ;D
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: as2 on May 18, 2017, 03:06:04 PM
You will get her Album free plus signed, HURRY...  ;D
LOL!
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Dan on May 18, 2017, 04:06:03 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312932

Hahahahah!
Amazing.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: mmgfarb on May 18, 2017, 08:26:59 PM
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312932

Hahahahah!
That's seriously the most ludicrous thing I've ever seen on DD/DDF.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: as2 on May 18, 2017, 08:38:28 PM
The response is golden!
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312938
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MC on May 18, 2017, 09:43:56 PM
The response is golden!
http://www.dansdeals.com/archives/114711#comment-1312938
:)
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 19, 2017, 07:44:49 AM
:)
Glad to see you pop in once every so often.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MC on May 19, 2017, 03:46:52 PM
Glad to see you pop in once every so often.
I never actually left. Just turned into a bit of a lurker.
Nice to have you "back" too.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: thaber on May 19, 2017, 04:21:35 PM
I never actually left. Just turned into a bit of a lurker.
Nice to have you "back" too.
That was a terrific comment. Belongs in the hall of fame
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 19, 2017, 04:29:49 PM
I never actually left. Just turned into a bit of a lurker.
I know. Tell LB don't be a stranger.  :)
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Dan on May 19, 2017, 04:33:30 PM
That was a terrific comment. Belongs in the hall of fame
+1.
Time to start a DDMS comment HoF thread.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MC on May 19, 2017, 04:42:30 PM
That was a terrific comment. Belongs in the hall of fame
+1.
Time to start a DDMS comment HoF thread.

Haha, thanks.

I know. Tell LB don't be a stranger.  :)

Message relayed :)
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Lou Bob on May 19, 2017, 04:43:14 PM
I know. Tell LB don't be a stranger.  :)
heyyyyyy  ;)
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: jj1000 on May 19, 2017, 04:43:49 PM
+1.
Time to start a DDMS comment HoF thread.
AKA a Wiki
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on May 19, 2017, 04:45:12 PM
Best of?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on May 19, 2017, 05:00:56 PM
heyyyyyy  ;)
What's up?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MeirS on June 02, 2017, 03:49:12 AM
theres something called a mumar in my language whether you like it or not. Also there's no way in the world I'm ever learning chasidus. This being a classic example of twisting things the wrong way which end up contradicting chazal but hey it doesn't matter because it's chassidus

Just catching up and came across this. I do feel that this post is somewhat degrading a part of Torah that Gedolim bigger than me and you in previous generations endorsed and I wouldn't start up with such things but that's your choice.

I haven't read the article that ExGingi posted a link to nor have I noticed a response from you but I'll just leave you with a question.

Is a Mumar, a bad Jew or is he a good Jew, a son of G-D, a son of Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov who has a holy Neshama who has unfortunately done bad things?

Just to set the record, Chassidus doesn't and can't contradict Chazal for a number of reasons, so if you seem to have come across such an instance, either you haven't understood the Chassidus or you haven't understood the Ma'amar Chazal.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: yelped on June 02, 2017, 10:55:22 AM
Just catching up and came across this. I do feel that this post is somewhat degrading a part of Torah that Gedolim bigger than me and you in previous generations endorsed and I wouldn't start up with such things but that's your choice.

I haven't read the article that ExGingi posted a link to nor have I noticed a response from you but I'll just leave you with a question.

Is a Mumar, a bad Jew or is he a good Jew, a son of G-D, a son of Avraham Yitzchok and Yaakov who has a holy Neshama who has unfortunately done bad things?

Just to set the record, Chassidus doesn't and can't contradict Chazal for a number of reasons, so if you seem to have come across such an instance, either you haven't understood the Chassidus or you haven't understood the Ma'amar Chazal.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 02, 2017, 11:15:28 AM

Just to set the record, Chassidus doesn't and can't contradict Chazal for a number of reasons, so if you seem to have come across such an instance, either you haven't understood the Chassidus or you haven't understood the Ma'amar Chazal.

No true Scotsman
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: yelped on June 02, 2017, 11:37:26 AM
No true Scotsman
Huh?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MeirS on June 02, 2017, 11:39:14 AM
No true Scotsman
The premise has to be true since Torah can't contradict Torah.

As for specific examples, I'm not going to go through the whole Chassidus and all Ma'amorei Chazal to iron out that which people conceive as discrepancies.
If there is something specific which you see as discrepancy, feel free to post it here (or maybe better in a dedicated thread) and I'm sure someone will able to explain.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MeirS on June 02, 2017, 11:39:49 AM
Huh?
I googled it
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 02, 2017, 12:23:32 PM
The premise has to be true since Torah can't contradict Torah.
"The premise has to be true because otherwise MY premise may be wrong"

I don't know enough background in chassidus to have a definitive opinion here but what you are saying is a logical fallacy.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: MeirS on June 02, 2017, 01:22:35 PM
"The premise has to be true because otherwise MY premise may be wrong"

I don't know enough background in chassidus to have a definitive opinion here but what you are saying is a logical fallacy.
One question.

Is Chassidus part of Torah or is Chassidus not part of Torah?

Many people have a hard time facing this question head on, but let's be intellectuality honest.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 02, 2017, 01:29:06 PM
One question.

Is Chassidus part of Torah or is Chassidus not part of Torah?

Many people have a hard time facing this question head on, but let's be intellectuality honest.
It is a fair assumption that it is a part, but he is obviously questioning that. Once there seems to be a contradiction between chassidus and the torah one of the possibilities is that it is not a part. I understand where you get your premise from but that does not require anyone to accept it without proof.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on June 02, 2017, 04:13:50 PM
The premise has to be true since Torah can't contradict Torah.

As for specific examples, I'm not going to go through the whole Chassidus and all Ma'amorei Chazal to iron out that which people conceive as discrepancies.
If there is something specific which you see as discrepancy, feel free to post it here (or maybe better in a dedicated thread) and I'm sure someone will able to explain.
im not really interested in getting a beating here for my issues so don't kill me for what I'm about to say. With that hakdamah how is it possible that there's a time during the year that there's an "issur" to learn Torah and rather have a party? Isn't there a passuk that says that you need to learn day and night? Vhamevin yavin. The list goes on but that's just the beginning. Hey listen there's a whole biography on the gra which has a designated chapter for his fights against chassidus. Then again they might not sell it in their stores because they don't want anyone to know it ever happened
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Brian93 on June 02, 2017, 04:18:59 PM


With that hakdamah how is it possible that there's a time during the year that there's an "issur" to learn Torah and rather have a party?

??
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: as2 on June 02, 2017, 04:19:46 PM

??
I'm assuming he's referring to "nittel nacht"
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: chinagel on June 02, 2017, 04:27:52 PM
im not really interested in getting a beating here for my issues so don't kill me for what I'm about to say. With that hakdamah how is it possible that there's a time during the year that there's an "issur" to learn Torah and rather have a party? Isn't there a passuk that says that you need to learn day and night? Vhamevin yavin. The list goes on but that's just the beginning. Hey listen there's a whole biography on the gra which has a designated chapter for his fights against chassidus. Then again they might not sell it in their stores because they don't want anyone to know it ever happened
why is that chassidus? the chasam sofer and many other non chasidim write about it IINM. to be fair, i dont understand it nor is it my minhag either.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on June 02, 2017, 04:29:53 PM
why is that chassidus? the chasam sofer and many other non chasidim write about it IINM. to be fair, i dont understand it nor is it my minhag either.
i hear. That's just comes to mind because they actually go that way.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: chinagel on June 02, 2017, 04:42:18 PM
i hear. That's just comes to mind because they actually go that way.
still not much of a complaint on chasidim, unless you think the chasam sofer also did things not in line with the torah...
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on June 02, 2017, 04:48:20 PM
Not saying this pertains to all but to a good chunk... not caring about zmanim of tefillah. I'm not referring to shkiya which is a different issue.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: koplonko on June 02, 2017, 06:06:48 PM
Not saying this pertains to all but to a good chunk... not caring about zmanim of tefillah. I'm not referring to shkiya which is a different issue.
Ma Kesher?!? I know a litvishe guy that learns daf-yomi and eats cholov akum and shaves his beard r"l, does that make gemara not a part of Torah?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on June 02, 2017, 06:12:00 PM
Ma Kesher?!? I know a litvishe guy that learns daf-yomi and eats cholov akum and shaves his beard r"l, does that make gemara not a part of Torah?
you mean chalav stam? Where is any of the above against halacha without a good basis to be based on?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: koplonko on June 03, 2017, 11:01:54 PM
you mean chalav stam? Where is any of the above against halacha without a good basis to be based on?
1. You are mixing up "wrong" actions with the study of Torah that these people do. Just because they act in a way that you (as opposed to גדולי ישראל אמתיים, צדיקי עליון ) feel is against halacha, does not mean that something they study is suddenly not part of Torah.
2. On regards to it being "wrong", see parentheses above. Much stronger basis than cholov akum and shaving. No real people in pre-war Europe did that, ch"v
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: chinagel on June 03, 2017, 11:04:58 PM
On regards to it being "wrong", see parentheses above. Much stronger basis than cholov akum and shaving. No real people in pre-war Europe did that, ch"v
you gotta study history
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 03, 2017, 11:59:06 PM
2. On regards to it being "wrong", see parentheses above. Much stronger basis than cholov akum and shaving. No real people in pre-war Europe did that, ch"v
Let's get this straight. You ae saying that ignoring zmanei tfila has a stronger basis than misparayim k'ein ta'ar? Can you elaborate?

As far as "real people" in pre-war Europe, you are either totally ignorant or we are back to no true scotsman.

you gotta study history
and halacha
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: bobby on June 07, 2017, 01:00:51 PM
2. On regards to it being "wrong", see parentheses above. Much stronger basis than cholov akum and shaving. No real people in pre-war Europe did that, ch"v

a) You're wrong. The Chofetz Chaim wrote an entire sefer decrying the fact that so many people were using razors to shave.

b) Even if you were right, there was no mirsas in Europe nor were there electric shavers. So it makes zero halachic sense to compare the two when the metzius is completely different.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 07, 2017, 01:21:44 PM
... Hey listen there's a whole biography on the gra which has a designated chapter for his fights against chassidus. Then again they might not sell it in their stores because they don't want anyone to know it ever happened
Could it be that he was misled?

see for example: http://old2.ih.chabad.info/images/notimage/66250_he_1.pdf

Also, don't forget that he didn't have the benefit of over 200 years of history, on which he could have based his judgment, he might have only been assuming outcomes.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: mmgfarb on June 07, 2017, 01:32:13 PM
Can we get back on topic here? Take this conversation to the halacha thread or something.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 07, 2017, 01:41:33 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=6071.msg1748378#msg1748378
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: yelped on June 07, 2017, 02:22:37 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=6071.msg1748378#msg1748378
Chasidei Imois HaOilom joke?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: mmgfarb on June 07, 2017, 02:47:54 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=6071.msg1748378#msg1748378
ALOL
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 07, 2017, 03:40:02 PM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=6071.msg1748378#msg1748378
So is that what they mean when they say circular logic?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: etech0 on June 07, 2017, 03:41:13 PM
So is that what they mean when they say circular logic?
In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Dan on June 07, 2017, 03:48:57 PM
In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
https://www.google.com/search?q=recursion&oq=recursion&aqs=chrome..69i57j0l5.645j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 07, 2017, 03:53:39 PM
In order to understand recursion, one must first understand recursion.
You just reminded me of a programming course I took years ago... had an assignment to write a recursive function to solve a common game (tower of Hanoi).
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 07, 2017, 08:48:13 PM
Could it be that he was misled?

see for example: http://old2.ih.chabad.info/images/notimage/66250_he_1.pdf

Also, don't forget that he didn't have the benefit of over 200 years of history, on which he could have based his judgment, he might have only been assuming outcomes.
The points upon which it was based were listed specifically.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 08, 2017, 01:58:26 AM
The points upon which it was based were listed specifically.
Not sure what you are referring to.

In any event, while doing some searching about the topic I came across this (http://chabadlibrarybooks.com/pdfpager.aspx?req=23647&st=&pgnum=134&hilite=) fascinating read.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 08, 2017, 02:59:15 AM
Not sure what you are referring to.

In any event, while doing some searching about the topic I came across this (http://chabadlibrarybooks.com/pdfpager.aspx?req=23647&st=&pgnum=134&hilite=) fascinating read.
The cherem listed I think seven specific items and was not based on predictions for the future.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 08, 2017, 03:38:41 PM
The cherem listed I think seven specific items and was not based on predictions for the future.
Only thing I found is http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf which quotes it on page 10 (page 5 of the PDF).

I do read there 7 or 8 items, and still stand by my assertion that the benefit of over 200 years of Chassidus disproves some of those (especially casting some of them on this generation). A recommended read to put things into context is: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=23647&st=&pgnum=101&hilite= especially sections ב and ד as they relate to the specifics of the חרם.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 08, 2017, 03:49:05 PM
Only thing I found is http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf which quotes it on page 10 (page 5 of the PDF).

I do read there 7 or 8 items, and still stand by my assertion that the benefit of over 200 years of Chassidus disproves some of those (especially casting some of them on this generation). A recommended read to put things into context is: http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=23647&st=&pgnum=101&hilite= especially sections ב and ד as they relate to the specifics of the חרם.
keep in mind that you can only see now how things turned out with the cherem. You do not know how things would have been without it. Did it temper chassidus? Did it keep it within boundaries?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 08, 2017, 04:00:09 PM
keep in mind that you can only see now how things turned out with the cherem. You do not know how things would have been without it. Did it temper chassidus? Did it keep it within boundaries?
Huh?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 08, 2017, 04:46:34 PM
Speaking of rehashing, what do we think of the Rambam?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: as2 on June 08, 2017, 05:34:36 PM
Can we get back on topic here? Take this conversation to the halacha thread or something.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 08, 2017, 06:42:49 PM
Can we get back on topic here? Take this conversation to the halacha thread or something.
+1000
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: yelped on June 08, 2017, 06:47:56 PM
Speaking of rehashing, what do we think of the Rambam?
:)
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 08:47:17 AM
Huh?
You are making the argument that the way chassidus turned out over 200 years shows that the cherem was misplaced. I am saying that maybe it is only because of the cherem that chassidus turned out the way it did. This would mean that the cherem was successful and was the CAUSE of the success of chassidus.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 11:38:37 AM
You said:

keep in mind that you can only see now how things turned out with the cherem. You do not know how things would have been without it. Did it temper chassidus? Did it keep it within boundaries?

To which I responded:
Huh?
That response translates as: "your response is befitting the title of this thread" (unless this is moved by mods to a thread with a different title).


But now that you have restated your comment saying:
You are making the argument that the way chassidus turned out over 200 years shows that the cherem was misplaced. I am saying that maybe it is only because of the cherem that chassidus turned out the way it did. This would mean that the cherem was successful and was the CAUSE of the success of chassidus.

I understand that you mean וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ, but I think you are giving the cherem too much credit here. Chassidus stands on its own merit, and is what the aibershter gave עם ישראל at the time it was needed.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: jj1000 on June 09, 2017, 11:43:14 AM
You are making the argument that the way chassidus turned out over 200 years shows that the cherem was misplaced. I am saying that maybe it is only because of the cherem that chassidus turned out the way it did. This would mean that the cherem was successful and was the CAUSE of the success of chassidus.
+1 The little known fact the founders of chassidus are the Bsht, Magid, then the Gra. That's why chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaism today.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 09, 2017, 11:44:08 AM
You are making the argument that the way chassidus turned out over 200 years shows that the cherem was misplaced. I am saying that maybe it is only because of the cherem that chassidus turned out the way it did. This would mean that the cherem was successful and was the CAUSE of the success of chassidus.

What doesn't kill you makes you stronger!*

*Or it makes you a quadriplegic. Conditions apply
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 11:46:36 AM
You said:

To which I responded:That response translates as: "your response is befitting the title of this thread" (unless this is moved by mods to a thread with a different title).


But now that you have restated your comment saying:
I understand that you mean וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ, but I think you are giving the cherem too much credit here. Chassidus stands on its own merit, and is what the aibershter gave עם ישראל at the time it was needed.

Maybe, but we do not know what chassidus would look like had there been no cherem. Some aspects of chassidus may have ended up much worse than they did. Open up your mind a bit.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 11:49:10 AM
+1 The little known fact the founders of chassidus are the Bsht, Magid, then the Gra. That's why chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaism today.
How could he have been a founder? He was commonly referred to as החסיד ר' אליהו, so must have predated him.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 11:50:05 AM
How could he have been a founder?
Because he kept chassidus from going off the deep end.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 09, 2017, 12:22:26 PM
Because he kept chassidus from going off the deep end.

My 5 year old daughter is going to tell me soon how much she helped my wife when they baked challah together.

Please provide one historic example of how Chassidus changed course, whether in custom, philosophy, ideology - anything - following the cherem. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm frankly quite ignorant on the subject. But you're arguing that others have to open their mind and using quite strong language (off the deep end) seemingly based purely on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to back up claims.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 01:02:20 PM
My 5 year old daughter is going to tell me soon how much she helped my wife when they baked challah together.

Please provide one historic example of how Chassidus changed course, whether in custom, philosophy, ideology - anything - following the cherem. I'm not saying it doesn't exist, I'm frankly quite ignorant on the subject. But you're arguing that others have to open their mind and using quite strong language (off the deep end) seemingly based purely on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to back up claims.
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

My language of "off the deep end" was not meant that they definitely would have only tha it is a possibility that they would have
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: jj1000 on June 09, 2017, 01:13:24 PM
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

My language of "off the deep end" was not meant that they definitely would have only tha it is a possibility that they would have
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 01:20:45 PM
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
If you look back you will see that I was replying specifically to this.
and still stand by my assertion that the benefit of over 200 years of Chassidus disproves some of those (especially casting some of them on this generation).
That we cannot tell anything based on the last 200 years since the cherem itself may have effected how those 200 years turned out. We cannot disprove anything based on the 200 years without knowing how they would have been without the cherem.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 09, 2017, 01:22:54 PM
You are not understanding what I am trying to say. ExGingi speculated that maybe had the GRA known how chassidus ended up he may not have made the cherem. I am saying that the existence of the cherem may have had an effect on how chassidus ended up and may have prevented it from make more drastic changes than they did. We only see how chassidus ended up with the existence of the cherem. How it would have been without it is simply conjecture and while it may have been the same, it also may have been drastically different. We therefore cannot say that he was mistaken based on how chassidus ended up since that may not have been how it would have ended up without the cherem.

We understand gantz fein. But, like I said, there is no reason to base yourself on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to prove your point. Show one example of how Chassidus changed its course or tune after the cherem. I think JJ's argument that the reverse is actually true is an easier argument to make.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 01:29:12 PM
We understand gantz fein. But, like I said, there is no reason to base yourself on conjecture when there is 200+ years of history to prove your point. Show one example of how Chassidus changed its course or tune after the cherem. I think JJ's argument that the reverse is actually true is an easier argument to make.
All we know is the way they turned out with the cherem. ExGingi's statement is conjecture that it would have been the same without it. Would it have been better or worse? I don't know but neither do you.

What was JJ's argument that the reverse is true? I can't find it.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 01:30:56 PM
I actually believe ExGingi was saying had the Gra known how chassidus truly was he may not have made the cherem, if you read all his sources...
While I might have previously made that statement, I wish to clarify that I actually don't believe the Gr"a made the cherem.

He definitely signed on to it, he was most probably misled.  How he would sign onto that, knowing what the Vilna community/Vaad was like (makes the current claims against the Lakewood Vaad sound like child play in comparison), without actually directly confronting Chassidim and giving them the opportunity to respond, is beyond my comprehension.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 01:36:44 PM
While I might have previously made that statement, I wish to clarify that I actually don't believe the Gr"a made the cherem.

He definitely signed on to it, he was most probably misled.  How he would sign onto that, knowing what the Vilna community/Vaad was like (makes the current claims against the Lakewood Vaad sound like child play in comparison), without actually directly confronting Chassidim and giving them the opportunity to respond, is beyond my comprehension.
I do not know enough about it to give an opinion, but I would recommend not basing your judgment solely on chassidic sources.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 09, 2017, 01:38:44 PM
All we know is the way they turned out with the cherem. ExGingi's statement is conjecture that it would have been the same without it. Would it have been better or worse? I don't know but neither do you.
Ex Gingi's conjecture is what the Gr"a would or would not have done seeing 200 years down the line. Your argument is we can't know how the cherem affected the course of history, and I'm saying we have 200 years of history to prove exactly that. You still haven't come up with a single example of how the cherem tamed chassidus or prevented it from "going off the deep end."
What was JJ's argument that the reverse is true? I can't find it.

+1 The little known fact the founders of chassidus are the Bsht, Magid, then the Gra. That's why chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaism today.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: LoLo on June 09, 2017, 01:40:32 PM
Can we get back on topic here? Take this conversation to the halacha thread or something.
PLEASE.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 01:42:50 PM
PLEASE.
I agree that this conversation should be pruned and have suggested same to moderators (with a suggested title).

That being said, the conversation did produce some comments that leave me speechless, so it might belong right here. :)
Title: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 01:53:59 PM
Ex Gingi's conjecture is what the Gr"a would or would not have done seeing 200 years down the line. Your argument is we can't know how the cherem affected the course of history, and I'm saying we have 200 years of history to prove exactly that. You still haven't come up with a single example of how the cherem tamed chassidus or prevented it from "going off the deep end."
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/b0bf98c18c5f749af3d98f2d2fc8a924.png)

That chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaisim is irrelevant to what I am writing since it is only the possibly tempered version.

Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
Quote
What worried the Vilna Gaon was not so much the Kabbalistic aspects of Hassidism (after all, he himself had studied Kabbalah) but the potential for producing another false messiah (like Shabbetai Tzvi whose story we covered in Part 51. The Vilna Gaon also objected to the Hassidic concept that God is "in all things" as too close to pantheism or the idea that everything was equally holy.(2)
[/color]He was also concerned about the concept of the rebbe (as the leader of each Hassidic sect was called) because he felt that the Hassidic concept that a person elevates himself spiritually simply by "attaching" himself to a holy person (a rebbe) was an idolatrous idea.
[/color]Another significant concern of the Vilna Gaon was de-intellectualization of Torah. The Hassidic movement was largely a movement of simple, uneducated Jews, and he worried that Jewish scholarship was going to be replaced by singing and dancing. A religion that was a synthesis of heart and mind would become all heart and no mind.
[/color]Finally, the Vilna Gaon, and many other rabbis strongly objected to the fact that the Hassidim had changed the text of the prayer as this was considered a serious break with tradition and wholly unacceptable.

There are those who will say that history has shown that chassidus would create false messiahs (leave that conversation to the thread already existing please)

If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.

What other changes similar to or eventually more drastic than the siddur and shchita would have happened without the cherem?



Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: jj1000 on June 09, 2017, 02:02:47 PM
I agree that this conversation should be pruned and have suggested same to moderators (with a suggested title).

That being said, the conversation did produce some comments that leave me speechless, so it might belong right here. :)
Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?

Better?
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 02:03:45 PM
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?

(http://i.imgur.com/OLC7Xxd.png)
Assuming those lines are a progression of time, why don't you point us to us the progression in deviation from mainstream between point 0 (what do you consider that point to be) to אייר תקל"ב, which is presumably where your lines change angles.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 02:04:40 PM
Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?

Better?
Nah. Doesn't elicit enough interest, and isn't a proper description of the conversation. Needs to be more intriguing/controversial. Also, don't forget that this discussion started with התנגדות, so that needs to be in the title.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 02:15:16 PM
Assuming those lines are a progression of time, why don't you point us to us the progression in deviation from mainstream between point 0 (what do you consider that point to be) to אייר תקל"ב, which is presumably where your lines change angles.
See my edit above. Either way, I am not discussing whether the GRA was properly informed as I do not have enough background knowledge. My point is that if the cherem caused blue or green instead of red then history does not show that the cherem was misplaced. Of course that is conjecture because we do not know where chassidus would be without the cherem.

see here for more discussion on page 113
https://books.google.com/books?id=11f9xBbOBBEC&printsec=frontcover&dq=triumph+of+survival&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjmmviWrrHUAhUHLsAKHZ71An0Q6AEIKDAA#v=onepage&q&f=false
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 09, 2017, 02:25:01 PM
In a diagram of how chassiddus deviates from what the mainstream was at the time with black as the mainstream (of course that may not really deserve to be a straight line) are the lines representing what actually happened (most likely green or blue) necessarily the same as what would have been? Would the changes have continued? How can I find a change that they made if the point is that the cherem may have PREVENTED further changes?

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/b0bf98c18c5f749af3d98f2d2fc8a924.png)

That chassidus has penetrated every sect of Judaisim is irrelevant to what I am writing since it is only the possibly tempered version.

Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
There are those who will say that history has shown that chassidus would create false messiahs (leave that conversation to the thread already existing please)

If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.

What other changes similar to or eventually more drastic than the siddur and shchita would have happened without the cherem?
Chassidus was in full swing. If the cherem was purely preventative, it should have said so. It wasn't. It was about what was happening already. If it was at all effective in "taming" chassidus, you should be able to point to at least one teeny tiny little change, even if the changes were mostly preventative.

You make as if we have no idea how those lines would have diverged. We have an idea, the ideologies spelled out their vision for those lines.

We now have two hundred years of history to see how it played out. You're going to have to do better than the *possibility* of preventive effects.

*this was written prior to your edit
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 02:28:45 PM
Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.

See the reasoning mentioned here http://www.aish.com/jl/h/cc/48954961.html
Quote
What worried the Vilna Gaon was not so much the Kabbalistic aspects of Hassidism (after all, he himself had studied Kabbalah) but the potential for producing another false messiah (like Shabbetai Tzvi whose story we covered in Part 51. The Vilna Gaon also objected to the Hassidic concept that God is "in all things" as too close to pantheism or the idea that everything was equally holy.(2)

Hold on. Wasn't it you who stated:

The cherem listed I think seven specific items and was not based on predictions for the future.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 02:38:20 PM


Hold on. Wasn't it you who stated:

That needs to be understood in the context of the prevailing attitude of the time that kabbalah was not appropriate for the masses based upon the experience with Shabsai Tzvi. This was not a prediction regarding chassidus but rather the basis of the prevailing attitude that kabbala was not for the masses
Title: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 02:38:24 PM
If the concept of attaching to a rebbe is problematic then it still is as well as changing the text of the siddur and the shchita knives (not mentioned here) etc etc.
Ahem...

There are different ways of attaching to a Rebbe. I wonder how the Gr"a would feel about how some in the Yeshivish world relate to Gedolim.

Also, among leader of Chassidus there was disagreement about this. That, and some of the points listed in whatever I found of זמיר עריצים וחרבות צורים that seem to relate more to the הנהגה of ר' אברהם קאליסקער and his followers (there was much opposition to those ways (definitely in Chabad)) unfortunately brought about a serious rift.

Changes of the siddur - do you daven from סידור הגר"א or from נוסח אשכנז. Are you familiar with the changes between the two. See the link to Mondshine's research for a listing of changes that the Gr"a made, that even his talmidim don't follow.

Shchita knives? CMIIAW, but I believe EVERYONE uses סכינים מלוטשים nowadays.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ben89 on June 09, 2017, 02:39:14 PM
Nothing to do with chasidus...I forgot another funny thing that a chassidishe cheder teaches the kids parshas vayigash. Yaakov sent yehuda to goshen to שטעל אבעק א שול מיט א מקוה. I guess a yeshiva in their terms means a Shul with a mikvah.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 02:40:55 PM
Chassidus was in full swing. If the cherem was purely preventative, it should have said so. It wasn't. It was about what was happening already. If it was at all effective in "taming" chassidus, you should be able to point to at least one teeny tiny little change, even if the changes were mostly preventative.

You make as if we have no idea how those lines would have diverged. We have an idea, the ideologies spelled out their vision for those lines.

We now have two hundred years of history to see how it played out. You're going to have to do better than the *possibility* of preventive effects.

*this was written prior to your edit
Their vision may be different than how it is or even was practiced. Is chassidus practiced now exactly the way it was at the time? Is there more less or the same amount of jumping around and dancing during davening? Is there more leass or the same focus on limud hatorah?

Also partially addressed by my edit.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 02:45:38 PM
Ahem...

There are different ways of attaching to a Rebbe. I wonder how the Gr"a would feel about how some in the Yeshivish world relate to Gedolim.

I don't wonder. He would certainly disapprove.

Changes of the siddur - do you daven from סידור הגר"א or from נוסח אשכנז. Are you familiar with the changes between the two. See the link to Mondshine's research for a listing of changes that the Gr"a made, that even his talmidim don't follow.
I daven from a sfard siddur

Shchita knives? CMIIAW, but I believe EVERYONE uses סכינים מלוטשים nowadays.
Rav Belsky said many times that the difference is currently irrelelvant with todays metals, but either way I think it had less to do with the actual knife than with the change from tradition.
Title: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2017, 02:52:42 PM
Either way I recommend that you research the Gaon's reasoning from sources other than Chabad.
Which I most definitely did, and continue to attempt. As evidenced by:

Only thing I found is http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf which quotes it on page 10 (page 5 of the PDF).

All being said, we might eventually agree or disagree about history. The question is (and was in the title I proposed to the moderators) whether it has any relevance today, or is any opposition to Chassidus or Chassidim just thinly veiled שנאת חנם?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 09, 2017, 03:09:48 PM
The question is (and was in the title I proposed to the moderators) whether it has any relevance today, or is any opposition to Chassidus or Chassidim just thinly veiled שנאת חנם?
I don't think it has relevance in most of current chassidus other than some of the ideological aspects of it such as the discussions regarding tzimtzum and the relations with a rebbe. It does possibly still apply to parts of Breslov and maybe the more extreme parts of Lubavitch from how I have heard some groups being described but don't know if they actually exist. I am not sure what specific opposition you are referring to.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: jye on June 11, 2017, 03:05:40 AM
Mekor Boruch quoting the Tzemach Tzedek that the Gra saved chassidus
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Boruch999 on June 11, 2017, 04:24:54 AM
Mekor Boruch quoting the Tzemach Tzedek that the Gra saved chassidus
aygart והוא הדבר אשר דיבר
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 11, 2017, 07:05:22 AM
Mekor Boruch quoting the Tzemach Tzedek that the Gra saved chassidus
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=785

Highly recommended read (which also mentions the rift among Chassidic leaders relating to reliance on the Tzadik): http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/FygM8993103.pdf
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 07:43:22 AM
Mekor Boruch quoting the Tzemach Tzedek that the Gra saved chassidus

In case you don't want to read the entire article @ExGingi posted, here is a key quote;
Quote
ששמועה זו מוכחשת בעליל, שהרי את ה'שולחן ערוך' החל אדמו"ר הזקן לחבר במזריטש בפקודת הרב המגיד עוד בטרם פרצה המחלוקת מווילנא ואגפיה!
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Boruch999 on June 11, 2017, 09:03:07 AM
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=785

Is there no other source for the quote from the Tzemach Tzedek?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: jye on June 11, 2017, 12:35:07 PM
According to the source quoted above Rav Wolbe brings down the same but his source is probably the Mekor Boruch as well....
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 12:38:53 PM
http://www.shturem.net/index.php?section=artdays&id=785

Highly recommended read (which also mentions the rift among Chassidic leaders relating to reliance on the Tzadik): http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/FygM8993103.pdf
THis "source" to question the mekor baruch is not credible at all. It is very clear from the way this article begins immediately with ad hominem attacks on the Torah Temima and Aruch Hashulchan that he decided that the story could not have occurred and then found the "facts" to back it up. Whether or not the line quoted by zh cohen is factually true or not. it still does not disprove the story. It may have been based on pushback prior to the actual cherem and even if it means the actual cherem and it was started before the cherem could have been a major impetus to complete it quickly or the like.

I am quite disappointed that you are quoting such articles at all. If someone would have quoted an article saying similar things about the various Rebbes you would correctly take exception to it. It is equally correct to take exception to your posting such trash.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 12:57:04 PM
THis "source" to question the mekor baruch is not credible at all. It is very clear from the way this article begins immediately with ad hominem attacks on the Torah Temima and Aruch Hashulchan that he decided that the story could not have occurred and then found the "facts" to back it up. Whether or not the line quoted by zh cohen is factually true or not. it still does not disprove the story. It may have been based on pushback prior to the actual cherem and even if it means the actual cherem and it was started before the cherem could have been a major impetus to complete it quickly or the like.

I am quite disappointed that you are quoting such articles at all. If someone would have quoted an article saying similar things about the various Rebbes you would correctly take exception to it. It is equally correct to take exception to your posting such trash.

Have you ever read anything else that Mondshine wrote?

You are giving an opinion in this thread about a topic that you admit you know little about.

Just as one example, you mentioned earlier the topic of "tzimtzum k'pshuto"." Are you aware that the normative Jewish view today is a lot closer to the Alter Rebbe's view that to the Gra's?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 01:03:20 PM
Have you ever read anything else that Mondshine wrote?

You are giving an opinion in this thread about a topic that you admit you know little about.

Just as one example, you mentioned earlier the topic of "tzimtzum k'pshuto"." Are you aware that the normative Jewish view today is a lot closer to the Alter Rebbe's view that to the Gra's?
No, I never heard of the guy.

Meanwhile I have not given any opinions and have only critiqued the logic others have used.

Yes I am aware of that. It does not change the fact that some of the items were specific. As I mentioned, I personally daven nusach sfard. I have mostly chassidishe minhagim. On the other hand it seems quite clear to me that much of what is happening here is simply the reverse of when some attack lubavitch and make up the reasons after. It seems that there is a view here that the cherem must be totally wrong and mistaken now lets figure out why.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 01:46:11 PM
No, I never heard of the guy.

Meanwhile I have not given any opinions

You are making the argument that the way chassidus turned out over 200 years shows that the cherem was misplaced. I am saying that maybe it is only because of the cherem that chassidus turned out the way it did. This would mean that the cherem was successful and was the CAUSE of the success of chassidus.

What is this?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 01:47:53 PM
It seems that there is a view here that the cherem must be totally wrong and mistaken now lets figure out why.

Um, ye. I'm a chossid, so I think it's a given that a cherem on chassidus is wrong.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 02:00:24 PM
What is this?


only critiqued the logic others have used.


Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 02:02:22 PM
Um, ye. I'm a chossid, so I think it's a given that a cherem on chassidus is wrong.
Part of bikush haemes is to come to an outcome based on the facts and not the opposite and to realize that maybe something unpleasant can have a positive effect.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 02:11:03 PM


Does saying "maybe" make it not an opinion?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 02:22:40 PM
Does saying "maybe" make it not an opinion?
Yes considering that it is a direct response to a logical deduction of his but it is not only because of the maybe but primarily because of the context
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 02:23:33 PM
Part of bikush haemes is to come to an outcome based on all of the facts and not the opposite.

The cherem is not the only "fact" that is relevant to the discussion of the truth of chasiddus. When taken in light of the many other facts including the fact that the black line in your chart moved closer to line representing chasiddus rather than the other way around, we can all agree that the cherem is irrelevant today.

My explanation for why that is so is based on history and yours is based on conjecture and "maybe." So which is fact based? Bikush Ha'emes does not demand taking an idea with no basis seriously.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 02:40:35 PM
The cherem is not the only "fact" that is relevant to the discussion of the truth of chasiddus. When taken in light of the many other facts including the fact that the black line in your chart moved closer to line representing chasiddus rather than the other way around, we can all agree that the cherem is irrelevant today.

My explanation for why that is so is based on history and yours is based on conjecture and "maybe." So which is fact based? Bikush Ha'emes does not demand taking an idea with no basis seriously.
You yourself stated that your outcome was decided before viewing the facts

I agree that at the very least most of it is not relevant today. That does mean that it was originally misplaced.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 03:05:20 PM
You yourself stated that your outcome was decided before viewing the facts

I agree that at the very least most of it is not relevant today. That does mean that it was originally misplaced.

I'm sorry if I was unclear. The cherem did not influence my view of chassidus. The facts that I mentioned and others did.

So let's review;

We both agree that chassidus is emes. We both agree that the cherem called chassidus sheker.

I said the cherem is and was wrong, and have facts to back my view up.

You said the cherem is wrong (today) but might not have been when it was written based on a guess and a maybe.

Is this a good summary of the discussion into now?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 03:09:09 PM


I'm sorry if I was unclear. The cherem did not influence my view of chassidus. The facts that I mentioned and others did.

So let's review;

We both agree that chassidus is emes. We both agree that the cherem called chassidus sheker.

I said the cherem is and was wrong, and have facts to back my view up.

You said the cherem is wrong (today) but might not have been when it was written based on a guess and a maybe.

Is this a good summary of the discussion into now?

saying it is irrelevant today does not mean chassidus is emes, only that a cherem should not currently apply. It also doesn't mean that it is and was wrong. And, you did not present any facts to show that in its time it was wrong.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 11, 2017, 03:25:16 PM
Part of bikush haemes is to come to an outcome based on the facts and not the opposite and to realize that maybe something unpleasant can have a positive effect.
Prior to being quoted here, I have never seen or heard of this quote from the Mekor Boruch.

A quick online search came up with Mondshine's article (R' Y. Mondshine A"H is not the topic of this thread, so let's not go there now - he worked in the Hebrew University as a librarian and is a known researcher).

Not being familiar with the quote, but being familiar with some history, and my (inside) view of Chassidus (Chabad), the quote seems odd (to say the least). Which is why I was OK quoting not only Mondshine, but bringing it from a certain website that tends to represent only its owner's and editor's point of view, rather than a broader spectrum which exists within the Chabad-Lubavitch community.

I suggest you read רשימת וויכוח מינסק which I linked to above (which corroborates some of the stories from several sources - and does not placate or try to deny that the Bima was carried out on Shabbos). I would love to see sources from the "opposing" side telling their version of the events.

I would also recommend reading http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf (paging @ben89 - are you familiar with these writings about the Gr"a? What sources are you familiar with in regards to the people and events described in this רשימה?).

I don't know what the Tzemach Tzedek said, I wasn't there and I haven't seen any corroboration. Is it possible that credit was given to the רדיפות וחרמות? Possible, as I said before וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ including the legal status vis-a-vis the Russian government. But the specifics (which might be an interpretation) saying that Chassidus might have gone "too far" just don't make sense.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 03:34:44 PM
Do you think that without the opposition of the misnagdim chassidus would look exactly the same as it does today? Would more of chassidus look like Breslov jumping up and down in Tzfas?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 11, 2017, 03:36:04 PM
And, you did not present any facts to show that in its time it was wrong.
Just another forum, but the stories quoted in that thread have several sources.

http://old2.ih.chabad.info/forums/theforum_he/viewtopic.php?t=8061&sid=2d9736cabfb0cdb778a05eceb8dd693f

Given those events, can you honestly say that the cherem might have not been wrong at its time?

Pay special attention to last paragraph of page 18 and page 19 of http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf

IMHO anyone that can say that the Gr"a wasn't mislead, or that the cherem was right at any time, is being highly disrespectful of the Gr"a.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 03:42:16 PM
Just another forum, but the stories quoted in that thread have several sources.

http://old2.ih.chabad.info/forums/theforum_he/viewtopic.php?t=8061&sid=2d9736cabfb0cdb778a05eceb8dd693f

Given those events, can you honestly say that the cherem might have not been wrong at its time?

Pay special attention to last paragraph of page 18 and page 19 of http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf

IMHO anyone that can say that the Gr"a wasn't mislead, or that the cherem was right at any time, is being highly disrespectful of the Gr"a.
What do those stories have to do with the seven reasons given which seem to have basis in fact?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 11, 2017, 04:01:48 PM
What do those stories have to do with the seven reasons given which seem to have basis in fact?
Which seven reasons are you referring to? The ones brought by R Wein, or those quoted in זמיר עריצים (not exactly the same IIRC).

Which of those reasons are a justification for דיני נפשות?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 04:06:43 PM
Which seven reasons are you referring to? The ones brought by R Wein, or those quoted in זמיר עריצים)not exactly the same IIRC).

Which of those reasons are a justification for דיני נפשות?
I have no justification for dinei nefashos. Was it sanctioned by the GRA?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: cholent on June 11, 2017, 04:13:20 PM
Just another forum, but the stories quoted in that thread have several sources.

http://old2.ih.chabad.info/forums/theforum_he/viewtopic.php?t=8061&sid=2d9736cabfb0cdb778a05eceb8dd693f

Given those events, can you honestly say that the cherem might have not been wrong at its time?

Pay special attention to last paragraph of page 18 and page 19 of http://w3.chabad.org/media/pdf/899/WqPJ8993112.pdf

IMHO anyone that can say that the Gr"a wasn't mislead, or that the cherem was right at any time, is being highly disrespectful of the Gr"a.
That's quite a strong statement. I would more quickly say that anyone who suggested the Gra was misled is being greatly disrespectful of the Gra
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 04:41:49 PM
That's quite a strong statement. I would more quickly say that anyone who suggested the Gra was misled is being greatly disrespectful of the Gra
But that wouldn't lead to the intended outcome?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 05:09:14 PM
That's quite a strong statement. I would more quickly say that anyone who suggested the Gra was misled is being greatly disrespectful of the Gra

Why?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: cholent on June 11, 2017, 05:14:41 PM
Why?
Are you so comfortable saying that the Vilna Gaon, whose brilliance and insight I could not possibly do justice to, was easily misled by others into taking such drastic action? That is a terrible accusation to make against such a gadol and against his daas Torah
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 05:25:39 PM
Are you so comfortable saying that the Vilna Gaon, whose brilliance and insight I could not possibly do justice to, was easily misled by others into taking such drastic action? That is a terrible accusation to make against such a gadol and against his daas Torah
Are you so comfortable saying that all of the Chassidim were koferim and everything else described in the cherem?

Someone was wrong in this whole story. There are three options;
1 - All of the Chassidim
2 - The Gr'a
3 - The witnesses

Now, which of the three do you think is the most charitable version of events? Or is there another option?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yammer on June 11, 2017, 06:00:54 PM
Are you so comfortable saying that the Vilna Gaon, whose brilliance and insight I could not possibly do justice to, was easily misled by others into taking such drastic action? That is a terrible accusation to make against such a gadol and against his daas Torah

Are you so comfortable saying that all of the Chassidim were koferim and everything else described in the cherem?

Someone was wrong in this whole story. There are three options;
1 - All of the Chassidim
2 - The Gr'a
3 - The witnesses

Now, which of the three do you think is the most charitable version of events? Or is there another option?
As was stated above many were fearful that chassidus was another false Mashiach, which had a terrible and tragic effect. Physically and spiritually.

Shabsai Tzvi had many gedolim that believed him in the beginning. Why is it hard to believe that the Gra was reluctant to let chasidus grow into a serious movement that according to what he was hearing can devastate a Klal Yisroel that was still reverberating from the Shabsai Tzvi effect? Had they Nipped the bud with ST it would have save an untold amount of grief, pain and despair.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 06:22:21 PM
As was stated above many were fearful that chassidus was another false Mashiach, which had a terrible and tragic effect. Physically and spiritually.

Shabsai Tzvi had many gedolim that believed him in the beginning. Why is it hard to believe that the Gra was reluctant to let chasidus grow into a serious movement that according to what he was hearing can devastate a Klal Yisroel that was still reverberating from the Shabsai Tzvi effect? Had they Nipped the bud with ST it would have save an untold amount of grief, pain and despair.

You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chinagel on June 11, 2017, 06:25:13 PM
You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.
why couldnt he have been right?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 06:35:11 PM
why couldnt he have been right?

Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aro123 on June 11, 2017, 06:37:59 PM
Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
Well the "current" one is so he wasn't that wrong....
If you look at what happened with the moshiachnics of chabad and breslov you see what could have happened to all chasidus without the cherem
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 06:40:26 PM
Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.
or could have eventually led to that. Some say it has for some people. Arvach arva tzarich.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
That has not and cannot be proven until we know what would have been without the cherem.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chinagel on June 11, 2017, 06:42:08 PM
Because to suggest that he was right is to say that the Alter Rebbe was a Moshiach Sheker.

It is also irrelevant if he could have been right when the fact is that he was not.
we can agree the alter rebbe wasnt mashiach, so if ppl thought he was that makes him a moshiach sheker. (didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)
in what way was he factually incorrect?
Title: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 06:43:50 PM
Well the "current" one is so he wasn't that wrong....
If you look at what happened with the moshiachnics of chabad and breslov you see what could have happened to all chasidus without the cherem



leave that conversation to the thread already existing please
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 06:47:26 PM

it still cannot be totally ignored and used to prove anything.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 06:47:47 PM
or could have eventually led to that.

Is chassidus as a philosophy kfira or not? The Gra wrote that it is (not that it might become).

Was he right or wrong?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 06:49:27 PM
(didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)

I was not the one who brought ST into this discussion.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 06:50:00 PM
Is chassidus as a philosophy kfira or not? The Gra wrote that it is (not that it might become).
That seems to be a machlokes between the GRA and the Baal Hatanya. His reasoning for calling it kefira was based on true information. This all have agreed upon.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 06:55:17 PM
That seems to be a machlokes between the GRA and the Baal Hatanya. His reasoning for calling it kefira was based on true information. This all have agreed upon.

And yet, there are no frum yidden today (as far as I am aware) that follow Shitas Ha'Gra

I am also not aware of any conversation the Gra had with anyone who held of this shita.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 06:58:33 PM
And yet, there are no frum yidden today (as far as I am aware) that follow Shitas Ha'Gra

I am also not aware of any conversation the Gra had with anyone who held of this shita.
That is irrelevant to the conversation.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 07:01:14 PM
it still cannot be totally ignored and used to prove anything.

Except that there are only a tiny number of people that believe in anything close to Kfirah.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 07:06:01 PM
That is irrelevant to the conversation.

Except that the Gra tasked his talmid to write a book (Nefesh Ha'chaim) explaining his shita, and it ended up agreeing (or being closer to) the shita of Chabad.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 07:07:49 PM
we can agree the alter rebbe wasnt mashiach, so if ppl thought he was that makes him a moshiach sheker. (didnt know he called him that, but i assume you have a source.)
in what way was he factually incorrect?

You might want to read up.on the difference between a "potential" Moshiach and a Moshiach sheker
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yammer on June 11, 2017, 07:16:23 PM


You are explaining why at the time it seemed like the right thing to do. You are missing the point which is that chassidus was not another ST. The Gra did not know that at the time. There are two possible explanations for this error, either he misinterpreted the information that he got or he did not get good information. Choose one of the two.

Of course chasidus isn't another ST. Its the total opposite.

However when trying to understand the picture, the events of that time period gives you an idea.

 It has nothing to do with the greatness of the Gra. Chasidim were making changes to things that scared many to the extent that they believed that it was only a matter of time before it became a ST.  I don't understand why you consider it derogatory to the Gra. He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aro123 on June 11, 2017, 07:16:36 PM
Except that there are only a tiny number of people that believe in anything close to Kfirah.
That is thanks to the cherem
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 11, 2017, 07:17:53 PM
We are going in circles here. Time to exit.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 08:51:15 PM
That is thanks to the cherem

Based on what are you making this statement? What changes of course can you point to that took place after the cherem?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: zh cohen on June 11, 2017, 08:54:21 PM

Of course chasidus isn't another ST. Its the total opposite.

However when trying to understand the picture, the events of that time period gives you an idea.

 It has nothing to do with the greatness of the Gra. Chasidim were making changes to things that scared many to the extent that they believed that it was only a matter of time before it became a ST.  I don't understand why you consider it derogatory to the Gra. He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.

I agree with everything you said here. (In fact I said most of what you said in different words throughout this thread).

Others said that to claim that the Gra had false/misleading information is derogatory, and I disagreed with them.
Title: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 11, 2017, 09:04:24 PM
He was situated in Vilna while the closest chosid was in White Russia. Additionally there were many ppl that had a hatred towards  chasidus  According to he was told he believed that it was apikorses.
Where do you take that from?

There were Chassidim in Vilna, might have not been that many in תקל״ב but by תקמ״ב there was definitely a recognizable presence in Vilna.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170612/7b7b9caaf4941773049043006bf18f99.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170612/fed2b9de74faf01bc65e425402a380ef.jpg)
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: elit on June 11, 2017, 09:13:05 PM
I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 11, 2017, 10:59:37 PM
I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
Lol, you're cute.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yammer on June 11, 2017, 11:57:47 PM


Where do you take that from?

There were Chassidim in Vilna, might have not been that many in תקל״ב but by תקמ״ב there was definitely a recognizable presence in Vilna.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170612/7b7b9caaf4941773049043006bf18f99.jpg)
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170612/fed2b9de74faf01bc65e425402a380ef.jpg)

I stand Corrected. My explanation would only apply to the first one.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 12, 2017, 02:33:27 AM
regarding the myth that the cherem "tempered" chassidus:
it originates in the מקור ברוך's fiction of a biography and propogated by the likes of מכבדי דעת תורה like assaf and his ilk.

Mondshine documented the discrepancies of the מקור ברוך in an academic article (probably in יגדיל תורה)decades before the ad-hominem piece on shtruem.net (I'll post it when I find it)

ETA: יגדיל תורה (נ"י) שנה א' חוב' יב (אלול תשל"ז) ע' מב-מג
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: a mirrer on June 12, 2017, 04:45:49 AM
I am not getting involved here but I always heard that the chofetz chaim gave a speech at a agudas rabbonim I believe after WW1 calling for an end to the cherem. if that's true and the text of the speech is available somewhere that may be able to put this hock to rest
I heard from someone in la who Reb simcha wasserman told him that the chafetz Chaim said to Reb elchanan that now I hindsight we see that the cherem was a mistake
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 12, 2017, 03:01:49 PM
https://bidspirit.com/portal/#!/lotPage/source/catalog/auction/2225/lot/105312/Handwritten-letter-of-condemnation

https://bidspirit.com/portal/#!/lotPage/source/catalog/auction/2225/lot/105313/Handwritten-polemics-against-the
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chaim0m on June 13, 2017, 03:15:41 AM
Mondshine in this case engages in biased conjecture which is contrary to the accepted academic or rabbinic opinion, you can see here a nice summary of the validity and debate surrounding the meeting of the Tzemach Tzekdek with the Aruch Hashulchan.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/301684667/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%90-123-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E-%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7#download&from_embed
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 08:45:21 AM
Mondshine in this case engages in biased conjecture which is contrary to the accepted academic or rabbinic opinion, you can see here a nice summary of the validity and debate surrounding the meeting of the Tzemach Tzekdek with the Aruch Hashulchan.

https://www.scribd.com/doc/301684667/%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%99-%D7%9E%D7%9E%D7%A8%D7%90-123-%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%A2%D7%90-%D7%A8%D7%99%D7%9E-%D7%A2%D7%A4%D7%A9%D7%98%D7%99%D7%99%D7%9F-%D7%95%D7%94%D7%A6%D7%9E%D7%97-%D7%A6%D7%93%D7%A7#download&from_embed
he makes the same mistake of taking the shturem.net article seriously. Ignore that version and read the יגדיל תורה version.
And even Henkin, when he's done, concedes the evidence is against the story act just suggest we accept the story on authority
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chaim0m on June 13, 2017, 10:06:02 AM
What Henkin argues (based on יגדיל תורה as well) is that there is no reason to believe he fabricated the story. In fact he points out we have two independent sources that the meeting indeed occurred (Rav Maimon). What he does say is that the details are not reliable since that was the literary style of the day to exaggerate depending on ones perspective. The fact the that the meeting occurred though is pretty clear, if we were to use the 'Mondshine methodology' to discredit anyone that ever reported anything inaccurately there wouldn't be any chassidish stories that happened either (or maybe any stories at all). Clearly Mondshine has an agenda this is especially evident in the sharpness of the way he expresses himself against the Torah Temimah.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 10:12:05 AM
What Henkin argues (based on יגדיל תורה as well) is that there is no reason to believe he fabricated the story. In fact he points out we have two independent sources that the meeting indeed occurred (Rav Maimon). What he does say is that the details are not reliable since that was the literary style of the day to exaggerate depending on ones perspective. The fact the that the meeting occurred though is pretty clear, if we were to use the 'Mondshine methodology' to discredit anyone that ever reported anything inaccurately there wouldn't be any chassidish stories that happened either (or maybe any stories at all). Clearly Mondshine has an agenda this is especially evident in the sharpness of the way he expresses himself against the Torah Temimah.
if the meeting has happened, but the reported contents are a proven fabrication, then there's no reason to believe the צ"צ endorsed the nonsense about the התנגדות.
And that's the 'source' of the myth
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chaim0m on June 13, 2017, 10:14:05 AM
I would agree mostly, my point is that on certain issues mondshine has no reliability his methodology is more problematic than others.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 10:25:46 AM
I would agree mostly, my point is that on certain issues mondshine has no reliability his methodology is more problematic than others.
אה"נ


( R' Y. Mondshine A"H is not the topic of this thread,  so let's not go there now - he worked in the Hebrew University as a librarian and is a known researcher).

Not being familiar with the quote, but being familiar with some history, and my (inside) view of Chassidus (Chabad), the quote seems odd (to say the least). Which is why I was OK quoting not only Mondshine, but bringing it from a certain website that tends to represent only its owner's and editor's point of view, rather than a broader spectrum which exists within the Chabad-Lubavitch community.
...

I don't know what the Tzemach Tzedek said, I wasn't there and I haven't seen any corroboration. Is it possible that credit was given to the רדיפות וחרמות? Possible, as I said before וכאשר יענו אותו כן ירבה וכן יפרוץ including the legal status vis-a-vis the Russian government.  But the specifics (which might be an interpretation) saying that Chassidus might have gone "too far" just don't make sense.
Mondshine notwithstanding, there's no valid source to credit the חרמות with 'saving' chassidus, nor for its implied racism that chassidus needed saving.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 10:40:26 AM
אה"נ

Mondshine notwithstanding, there's no valid source to credit the חרמות with 'saving' chassidus, nor for its implied racism that chassidus needed saving.
Racism?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 13, 2017, 10:52:44 AM
Racism?

Chassidim are sometimes called "black"
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 11:04:04 AM
Chassidim are sometimes called "black"
So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Yehuda57 on June 13, 2017, 11:05:30 AM
So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics

Is this thread the black on black crime I've heard so much about?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 11:06:53 AM
Is this thread the black on black crime I've heard so much about?
Maybe, but didn't someone say earlier that now everyone is the same anyhow?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 11:10:22 AM
So are the yeshiveshe. Not only that but they are often called hassidics
Hey, wasn't the Gr"a called החסיד?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chaim0m on June 13, 2017, 11:49:33 AM
Yeah along with the חסידים הראשונים in Brachos  ;)
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 12:00:43 PM
Yeah along with the חסידים הראשונים in Brachos  ;)
Yeah, but those didn't wear black (nor did many of the Chassidim in the time of the Gr"a - which was one of the complaints against them. ;) )
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 12:04:09 PM
Yeah, but those didn't wear black (nor did many of the Chassidim in the time of the Gr"a - which was one of the complaints against them. ;) )
It was? I didn't even know that. That would be a very strong complaint.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 01:01:39 PM
It was? I didn't even know that. That would be a very strong complaint.
(http://i.imgur.com/eRX3tgy.png)

That's printed page 15 (page 10 of the pdf) out of http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 01:05:47 PM
(http://i.imgur.com/eRX3tgy.png)

That's printed page 15 (page 10 of the pdf) out of http://jewishhistory.huji.ac.il/kuntress/Chassidiana/chassidiana6_28.pdf
okay so what is your answer to that?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 01:07:39 PM
okay so what is your answer to that?
evidently there's an ענין ע"פ קבלה to wear white on shabbos. while the misnagdim felt that yiddishkeit is the province of the elite few (which their own גזרה left an exception for), the chassidim found yiddishkeit to be מורשה קהלת יעקב.
(I speak only from the paragraph cited)
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 01:11:50 PM
evidently there's an ענין ע"פ קבלה to wear white on shabbos. while the misnagdim felt that yiddishkeit is the province of the elite few (which their own גזרה left an exception for), the chassidim found yiddishkeit to be מורשה קהלת יעקב.
(I speak only form the paragraph cited)
So what changed? I thought chassidus is still the same as it was then. Or actually no one was willing to actually go on the record saying that clearly black on white. They only felt that I should show something which did change, but even though I asked a few times if they felt that chassidus is the same now as it was then everyone ignored that even though they were trying to imply that it is.

Well, here is a difference between chassidus now and then.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 01:15:01 PM
So what changed? I thought chassidus is still the same as it was then. Or actually no one was willing to actually go on the record saying that clearly black on white. They only felt that I should show something which did change, but even though I asked a few times if they felt that chassidus is the same now as it was then everyone ignored that even though they were trying to imply that it is.

Well, here is a difference between chassidus now and then.
and has no connection to any of the hisnagdus.
the wearing of white continued for a few generations after the gr"a, and (at least in chabad) ended around the same as the shtreimel (for chassidim). a combination between ignoring חיצוניות and a dire poverty where you were lucky to have clothes in one piece at all...
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 01:17:56 PM
and has no connection to any of the hisnagdus.
the wearing of white continued for a few generations after the gr"a, and (at least in chabad) ended around the same as the shtreimel (for chassidim). a combination between ignoring חיצוניות and a dire poverty where you were lucky to have clothes in one piece at all...
How do you know?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 01:23:17 PM
So what changed? I thought chassidus is still the same as it was then. Or actually no one was willing to actually go on the record saying that clearly black on white. They only felt that I should show something which did change, but even though I asked a few times if they felt that chassidus is the same now as it was then everyone ignored that even though they were trying to imply that it is.

Well, here is a difference between chassidus now and then.
Don't some chassidim still where white shabbos? תו"א?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 01:26:28 PM
Don't some chassidim still where white shabbos? תו"א?
No they wear gold on shabbos. Either way, what difference does that make. There are still some chassidim dancing wildly in the streets too.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 01:31:53 PM
Where was there an assertion that wearing white was against halachah? and if there's nothing wrong with it other than diluting elitism, why should chassidim have been נתפעל? moreover, on the general issue, the chassidim have maintained their position on the universality of yiddishkeit, with a vengeance. so it'll be a hard sell that this one thing "chassidim switched to maintaining halacha, thanks to the opposition"

Really?!
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 01:36:35 PM
Where was there an assertion that wearing white was against halachah? and if there's nothing wrong with it other than diluting elitism, why should chassidim have been נתפעל? moreover, on the general issue, the chassidim have maintained their position on the universality of yiddishkeit, with a vengeance. so it'll be a hard sell that this one thing "chassidim switched to maintaining halacha, thanks to the opposition"

Really?!
NO THEY HAVE NOT. The whole idea of dynasties of rebbes is the opposite of that.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 01:44:35 PM
NO THEY HAVE NOT. The whole idea of dynasties of rebbes is the opposite of that.
yet they where doing that from day one, not in response to opposition. that was actually part of the opposition.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 01:46:12 PM
yet they where doing that from day one, not in response to opposition. that was actually part of the opposition.
Really? How many of the talmidim of the Besht  have grandchildren which are dynasties?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 02:00:23 PM
Really? How many of the talmidim of the Besht  have grandchildren which are dynasties?
so let me get this straight: the institution of a rebbe, which the misnagdim opposed, was turned into a hereditary dynasty, in respect for the misnagdic demand for elitism?

(and this was the positive effect of the hisnagdus?)
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 02:04:43 PM
so let me get this straight: the institution of a rebbe, which the misnagdim opposed, was turned into a hereditary dynasty, in respect for the misnagdic demand for elitism?

(and this was the positive effect of the hisnagdus?)
The point is that there HAVE been changes. Now YOU answer. Are you off the opinion that chassidus did not change over the last 250 years. You guys need to stop vacillating bank and forth. Yes or no?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 13, 2017, 02:07:48 PM
We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 02:10:48 PM
We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.
still refusing to answer.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: Boruch999 on June 13, 2017, 02:13:17 PM
We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.

How can that be proven wrong?  Or right, for that matter?  Do you have access to an alternate universe where there was no opposition and chassidus is the same as it is today in this universe?  It also can not be proven or dis-proven whether or not chassidus has shaped misnagdus with out the aid of an alternate universe.  However it can be said that they were both very likely affected by each other.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 02:22:02 PM
We can disagree on the theology of צמצום לאו כפשוטו, we can disagree on priorities of תלמוד תורה, תפלה, שמחה, אהבת ישראל, וכו but the myth that the opposition saved chassidus from itself is one of the "big lie"s that has no basis in reality.

point to whatever changes you like, non of it is thanks to the חרמים ורדיפות which remain best left in history.
Says the one who is naive enough to believe that the vociferous opposition had no effect at all on them.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 04:05:24 PM
The point is that there HAVE been changes. Now YOU answer. Are you off the opinion that chassidus did not change over the last 250 years. You guys need to stop vacillating bank and forth. Yes or no?
Has תורת החסידות changed?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 04:06:50 PM
Has תורת החסידות changed?
Now you are limiting the conversation very significantly to an aspect I am unable to discuss. Why are you limiting it like that?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: jj1000 on June 13, 2017, 04:15:53 PM
Someone needs to make a wiki, with a lot of circles in it.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chinagel on June 13, 2017, 04:25:00 PM
Someone needs to make a wiki, with a lot of circles in it.
the circles in @aygart 's triangle or vice versa?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 04:30:50 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/f7ac823db75880514f2391e4fb0dbc18.png)
I have been in one place the whole time.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chinagel on June 13, 2017, 04:36:46 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/f7ac823db75880514f2391e4fb0dbc18.png)
I have been in one place the whole time.
just a math joke. :)
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 04:37:22 PM
just a math joke. :)
math is no joke.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: chinagel on June 13, 2017, 04:42:21 PM
math is no joke.
some peoples math is pretty funny.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 04:52:48 PM
the circles in @aygart 's triangle or vice versa?
ALOL
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 04:59:10 PM
Now you are limiting the conversation very significantly to an aspect I am unable to discuss. Why are you limiting it like that?
Because that's what it really boils down to, if you want to discuss whether the חרם had any merit, or if it "saved chassidus...".

If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 05:08:52 PM
Because that's what it really boils down to, if you want to discuss whether the חרם had any merit, or if it "saved chassidus...".

If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.
It was definitely a confluence of many factors. Some of which were the ways the adherents were behaving as well as a feeling that some of the focus of the philosophy would naturally lead there. There is likely less of a focus on the "tamid bisimcha" aspects of chassidus than there had been. There are likely similar differences in the "jumping around during davening" which were direct results of the philosophy and not collateral. Many of the other aspects were also part and parcel such as their changing the siddur and leaving the communal shul. Once the language of the siddur is not sacrosanct there can be future change to it as well as has already occurred with some groups within Lubavitch.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: AsherO on June 13, 2017, 05:10:11 PM
Someone needs to make a wiki, with a lot of circles in it.

Paging MMS :D
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 05:46:30 PM
It was definitely a confluence of many factors. Some of which were the ways the adherents were behaving as well as a feeling that some of the focus of the philosophy would naturally lead there. There is likely less of a focus on the "tamid bisimcha" aspects of chassidus than there had been. There are likely similar differences in the "jumping around during davening" which were direct results of the philosophy and not collateral. Many of the other aspects were also part and parcel such as their changing the siddur and leaving the communal shul. Once the language of the siddur is not sacrosanct there can be future change to it as well as has already occurred with some groups within Lubavitch.
WOW.

Talk about
still refusing to answer.
and drawing smoke circles.

I have a lot of respect for you, but for some reason on this topic there's something there that seems to be creating a barrier for you, not allowing you to admit certain things.

Let's try to analyze this OBJECTIVELY:

I said:
If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.

Notice: I deliberately did not say "if Chassidus..." but was rather talking about an abstract concept of dealing with a philosophy and its followers. You can apply this analysis to any philosophy throughout (Jewish) history.

And now, looking OBJECTIVELY at Chassidus - as it is defined by תורת החסידות - the actual philosophy, and applying my analysis above, is there any reason to believe that the חרם "saved chassidus from..." or that it had any justification?

You then go into particulars, some of which I have previously addressed, and most are totally irrelevant. I will not respond again to those now, as I don't want to mellow the point made above and veer off topic. But in doing so, you go back to saying:
Quote
as well as a feeling that some of the focus of the philosophy would naturally lead there

and

Quote
there can be future change to it as well

While you resented when I said that we have the benefit of 200+ years of retrospect, saying it was all based on contemporary facts, and not on future predictions. So which one is it?

Lastly, you also say:
Quote
Once the language of the siddur is not sacrosanct there can be future change to it as well as has already occurred with some groups within Lubavitch
Which I believe is totally untrue. Kindly prove otherwise. And please don't bring up announcing יחי, as no-one has that as part of the siddur or נוסח התפילה.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 05:49:38 PM
I have been in one place the whole time.
Except when you weren't as pointed out above. (חרם based on predictions or only on several specific facts).
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 06:21:50 PM
Except when you weren't as pointed out above. (חרם based on predictions or only on several specific facts).
The difference is the "only" which I never said. That answers most of the previous post as well.

You are taking the position that the philosophy should be separated from the behavior found among its adherents. That sounds sort of like calling Islam a religion of peace. If it is the philosophy which would naturally lead there then the behavior and the philosophy are one and the same. There is no question that the cherem was based at least partially on the behavior of the chassidim of the time. This is there in writing. Once behavior is included then you questioning whether or not toras hachassidus has changed is fallacious. Even that you did not pin yourself to an answer. Do YOU feel that toras hachassidus hasn't changed and is the same now as it was 250 years ago? What about the behaviors? Have those changed over 250 years or remained the same?

The historians seem to pin a portion of the reasoning to fear of Sabbateanism which is certainly a fear of where it would lead.

Regarding the siddur, I will not be able to prove it, but I have actually seen it in Eretz Yisroel. I do not remember what the siddur was called and will not be looking for it. I understand that it would be an extreme fringe element. Either believe me or don't.

My status here has been only that of asking questions. I have not given any opinion (I guess other that saying it would be naive to believe that the cherem had no effect at all on chassidus). Much of the reasoning being used to convince me is that I need to prove that there were changes due to the cherem. I only mentioned that as a possibility which would mean that the condition of chassidus today with the existence of the cherem cannot be used to prove that the cherem was wrong. That is simple logical reasoning. There has been no logical reasoning to counter that. Even those telling me to show differences have not been willing to take the position that they don't exist, yourself included. I think you have seen many times tht I am not someone who has preconcieved notions that chassidus or Lubavitch are ______________. I am simply going through the logic here and it does not add up.

Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 06:58:49 PM
The difference is the "only" which I never said. That answers most of the previous post as well.

You are taking the position that the philosophy should be separated from the behavior found among its adherents. That sounds sort of like calling Islam a religion of peace.

I am not familiar enough with Islam to make an opinion one way or another. I have seen various quotes, and my Arabic is less than basic, so I have to rely on translations, all of which are interpretations. But why are you going there. Are we lacking cases in Jewish history: פרנקיסטים - which IIRC the בעש"ט himself was involved in a ויכוח against them, ש"ץ ימ"ש, קראים, Christians, etc. etc. all of which claimed to be true Jews. And להבדיל on the other side you have: שיטת המוסר, מקובלים, or some educational methods such as זילבערמאן, etc. etc.

Please try to objectively apply my methodology (unless you can explain why it is wrong) to any of those and to Chassidus. Is my methodology flawed by any measure?

Quote
If it is the philosophy which would naturally lead there then the behavior and the philosophy are one and the same.
I am not denying that, but you are assuming that the philosophy naturally leads to a certain behavior. The Alter Rebbe obviously disagrees, and along with some other Chassidic leaders of his time attempted to stop what he saw as unacceptable.

Quote
Do YOU feel that toras hachassidus hasn't changed and is the same now as it was 250 years ago?
Did the Torah Haniglis change since ששה סדרי משנה were codified by רבי יהודה הנשיא?



Quote
What about the behaviors? Have those changed over 250 years or remained the same?
That is not a question that requires an answer. It is only a question of those that תואנה הם מבקשים. It is totally irrelevant to the question of whether the חרם had any merit based on my suggested methodology.

Quote
The historians seem to pin a portion of the reasoning to fear of Sabbateanism which is certainly a fear of where it would lead.
Which is why I kind of started off this discussion with my statement about the benefit of retrospect of over 200 years of history. Additionally, using objective analysis, proper חקירה ודרישה etc. would have produced other conclusions.

Quote
Regarding the siddur, I will not be able to prove it, but I have actually seen it in Eretz Yisroel. I do not remember what the siddur was called and will not be looking for it. I understand that it would be an extreme fringe element. Either believe me or don't.
Please state what you saw and where you saw it?

Quote
My status here has been only that of asking questions. I have not given any opinion (I guess other that saying it would be naive to believe that the cherem had no effect at all on chassidus). Much of the reasoning being used to convince me is that I need to prove that there were changes due to the cherem. I only mentioned that as a possibility which would mean that the condition of chassidus today with the existence of the cherem cannot be used to prove that the cherem was wrong. That is simple logical reasoning. There has been no logical reasoning to counter that.

Bringing up a certain line of thought, which doesn't stand up to objective analysis - as per my methodology which you haven't refuted, is akin to giving an opinion.

Where do you see a lack of logical reasoning in my methodology?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 07:05:19 PM
Please try to objectively apply my methodology (unless you can explain why it is wrong) to any of those and to Chassidus. Is my methodology flawed by any measure?

Bringing up a certain line of thought, which doesn't stand up to objective analysis - as per my methodology which you haven't refuted, is akin to giving an opinion.

Where do you see a lack of logical reasoning in my methodology?

Please explain the exact methodology again.

Regarding the siddur, it was about 20 years ago in a random non-lubavitch shul in yerushalayim. I don't recall the exact changes but the basic idea was including the Rebbe in tefilos for moshiach.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 07:33:37 PM
Please explain the exact methodology again.

If something is fundamentally flawed, then fighting it or saving its adherents from taking it in a certain direction, not only has merit, but might actually be a noble cause.

However, if something is essentially and fundamentally true and accurate, yet SOME followers misinterpret it or behave in ways that might be היפך ישוב העולם, היפך אהבת ישראל, or some other problematic way, then one should WORK WITH THE LEADERS of the philosophy to help save it from its so-called followers misrepresenting it, or causing other harm in its name.
So the right way to decide is by evaluating the philosophy first.

Quote
Regarding the siddur, it was about 20 years ago in a random non-lubavitch shul in yerushalayim. I don't recall the exact changes but the basic idea was including the Rebbe in tefilos for moshiach.
'nuff said? Were the changes printed, or written in?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 07:39:36 PM
So the right way to decide is by evaluating the philosophy first.
'nuff said? Were the changes printed, or written in?
there were clearly some parts of the philosophy which they specifically included in their reasoning. There is also the possibility they they did see the sources for the behavior in the underlying philosophy. That is alluded to in some of the items you linked to. You are assuming that they did not. I am not sure what that is based upon.

The siddur was printed. I never meant to give an impression that it was representative.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 07:40:41 PM
there were clearly some parts of the philosophy which they specifically included in their reasoning.
Quote please.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 08:40:44 PM
I did see the following quoted from R Chaim Berlin in Nishmas Chaim 7. I did not yet verify it myself


ולהתפלל בבית הכנסת של החסידים אין שום חשש בזה, וגזירת רבינו הגר"א ז"ל לא הי' אלא בזמנו שהקילו אז בכבוד תלמידי חכמים לומדי תורה, ולא כן בימינו שהחסידים חולקים כבוד לכל לומדי תורה והם יראי ה' ושומרים תורה ומצוה

Here is a copy of the original version
(https://crownheights.info/assets/2014/01/gra.jpg)
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 08:46:06 PM

I did see the following quoted from R Chaim Berlin in Nishmas Chaim 7. I did not yet verify it myself


ולהתפלל בבית הכנסת של החסידים אין שום חשש בזה, וגזירת רבינו הגר"א ז"ל לא הי' אלא בזמנו שהקילו אז בכבוד תלמידי חכמים לומדי תורה, ולא כן בימינו שהחסידים חולקים כבוד לכל לומדי תורה והם יראי ה' ושומרים תורה ומצוה

Here is a copy of the original version
(https://crownheights.info/assets/2014/01/gra.jpg)
Even that is talking about behavior, not philosophy.

Did you ever learn Tanya? How about the Alter Rebbe's הלכות תלמוד תורה (which according to Lubavitch sources was originally printed anonymously and was highly praised by the Gr"a)?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 08:51:13 PM
Quote please.
I can't find it now but you can't believe that you don't know what I am referring to. This wasn't even my real point so I will not spend time on it. I do not know enough about the background of how the cherem came about to give an opinion on that aspect anyhow. I do recall thenm discussing about tamid bismcha and the view of the evils of atzvus cause ...... as well as similar statements regarding other issues. I cannot give an educaed opinion as to whether the GRA should or should not have relied upon those who he relied upon, but in general would say that his decision to rely upon them and whatever he knew from other sources or on his own at the time is typically also in and of itself a decision of his to rely upon it and carries that weight.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 08:54:58 PM
Even that is talking about behavior, not philosophy.

Did you ever learn Tanya? How about the Alter Rebbe's הלכות תלמוד תורה (which according to Lubavitch sources was originally printed anonymously and was highly praised by the Gr"a)?
This says very little as far as reasoning at all
Title: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 08:58:27 PM
I can't find it now but you can't believe that you don't know what I am referring to. This wasn't even my real point so I will not spend time on it. I do not know enough about the background of how the cherem came about to give an opinion on that aspect anyhow. I do recall thenm discussing about tamid bismcha and the view of the evils of atzvus cause ...... as well as similar statements regarding other issues. I cannot give an educaed opinion as to whether the GRA should or should not have relied upon those who he relied upon, but in general would say that his decision to rely upon them and whatever he knew from other sources or on his own at the time is typically also in and of itself a decision of his to rely upon it and carries that weight.
I don't know what you are referring to, I haven't researched this from non-Lubavitch sources prior to the current conversation. (I am trying to get my hands on a copy - preferably PDF - of חסידים ומתנגדים by Wilansky).

Are you familiar with what the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya about עצבות, מרירות and their appropriate place in עבודת השם?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 08:59:52 PM
I don't know what you are referring to, I haven't researched this from non-Lubavitch sources prior to the current conversation.

Are you familiar with what the Alter Rebbe writes in Tanya about עצבות, מרירות and their appropriate place in עבודת השם?
No I am not at this time.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 13, 2017, 09:06:09 PM

No I am not at this time.
Start here (http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/adhaz/tanya/1/26).
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 13, 2017, 09:10:08 PM
Start here (http://chabadlibrary.org/books/default.aspx?furl=/adhaz/tanya/1/26).

No I am not at this time.
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 18, 2017, 06:29:35 PM
I've been looking up various sources since this thread was recently active, and came across this (https://books.google.com/books?id=BrewRNp4gH8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false), or in it's original here (http://www.kotar.co.il/KotarApp/Viewer.aspx?nBookID=93631439#110.467.6.default), or complete pdf of chapter 4 here (http://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=15746). Was this the book @ben89 was referring to here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=79917.msg1745367#msg1745367)?

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):

(http://i.imgur.com/zj6Ly84.png)

Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

As a side note, while not rejecting it vehemently as Mondshine, Etkes does tend to doubt the extent of the alleged content of the exchange between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan.

As I have stated earlier. There's little doubt that the meeting between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan happened. It is also possible that the Tzemach Tzedek said something about a benefit that came about from the Cherem (or the wars against chassidim/chassidus), however to claim that the type of benefit is as brought down in the מקור ברוך, ignores the reality of what תורת החסידות is, and of how events unfolded. A more likely explanation of the benefit would be something along the lines described here in a letter from the Alter Rebbe (quoted in יחיד בדורו, pg. 119):
(http://i.imgur.com/qU2hvZq.png)

(I hope @aygart is satisfied with the fact that I have exclusively quoted non-Lubavitch sources in this post).
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ben89 on June 18, 2017, 07:19:55 PM
I've been looking up various sources since this thread was recently active, and came across this (https://books.google.com/books?id=BrewRNp4gH8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false), or in it's original here (http://www.kotar.co.il/KotarApp/Viewer.aspx?nBookID=93631439#110.467.6.default), or complete pdf of chapter 4 here (http://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=15746). Was this the book @ben89 was referring to here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=79917.msg1745367#msg1745367)?

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):

(http://i.imgur.com/zj6Ly84.png)

Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

As a side note, while not rejecting it vehemently as Mondshine, Etkes does tend to doubt the extent of the alleged content of the exchange between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan.

As I have stated earlier. There's little doubt that the meeting between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan happened. It is also possible that the Tzemach Tzedek said something about a benefit that came about from the Cherem (or the wars against chassidim/chassidus), however to claim that the type of benefit is as brought down in the מקור ברוך, ignores the reality of what תורת החסידות is, and of how events unfolded. A more likely explanation of the benefit would be something along the lines described here in a letter from the Alter Rebbe (quoted in יחיד בדורו, pg. 119):
(http://i.imgur.com/qU2hvZq.png)

(I hope @aygart is satisfied with the fact that I have exclusively quoted non-Lubavitch sources in this post).
no I meant this http://www.lehmanns.co.uk/hgavn-mvilna-g-krkim.html
Title: Re: Re: Comments That Leave Me Speechless...
Post by: ExGingi on June 18, 2017, 08:50:09 PM
no I meant this http://www.lehmanns.co.uk/hgavn-mvilna-g-krkim.html
Does he write anything that negates my assertion that

Quote
Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

If yes, please post images or quotes.
Title: Is there any legitimacy to opposition to Chassidus (and is there a bad Jew)?
Post by: ExGingi on June 18, 2017, 09:43:15 PM
no I meant this http://www.lehmanns.co.uk/hgavn-mvilna-g-krkim.html
Trying to search for that book online, I came across this (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20399&st=&pgnum=843) (written by the Novominsker?)

Of note is the attached quote.
Title: Re: Is there any legitimacy to opposition to Chassidus (and is there a bad Jew)?
Post by: ben89 on June 18, 2017, 10:41:22 PM
Trying to search for that book online, I came across this (http://www.hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=20399&st=&pgnum=843) (written by the Novomisker?)

Of note is the attached quote.
yes that's famous but Reb Chaim kanievsky wrote a haskamah on the Sefer specifically on these chapters. I'll post a picture when I get a chance
Title: Re: Is there any legitimacy to opposition to Chassidus (and is there a bad Jew)?
Post by: ExGingi on June 18, 2017, 10:55:11 PM
yes that's famous but Reb Chaim kanievsky wrote a haskamah on the Sefer specifically on these chapters. I'll post a picture when I get a chance
And while you're at it, please address some substance as per
Does he write anything that negates my assertion that
Quote
Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".
If yes, please post images or quotes.
Title: Re: Is there any legitimacy to opposition to Chassidus (and is there a bad Jew)?
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2017, 09:20:17 PM
yes that's famous but Reb Chaim kanievsky wrote a haskamah on the Sefer specifically on these chapters. I'll post a picture when I get a chance
Seems to be some testimony out there denying the purported haskamah of R Chaim Kaminetzky quoted here (http://www.yekum.org/2015/10/מיהו-הצדיק-והצודק-הגאון-מווילנה-או-הרב/) by a descendant of the Gr"a.

I managed to get my hands on a scanned PDF copy of חסידים ומתנגדים by Wilensky. It's over 740 pages long, contains plenty of documents and is well annotated. I might post some images of interest here.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2017, 09:41:47 PM
I've been looking up various sources since this thread was recently active, and came across this (https://books.google.com/books?id=BrewRNp4gH8C&printsec=frontcover#v=onepage&q&f=false), or in it's original here (http://www.kotar.co.il/KotarApp/Viewer.aspx?nBookID=93631439#110.467.6.default), or complete pdf of chapter 4 here (http://forum.otzar.org/download/file.php?id=15746). Was this the book @ben89 was referring to here (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=79917.msg1745367#msg1745367)?

After reading through chapters 3 and 4, I go back to all those who refused to admit that with over 200 years of retrospect, it is obvious that the Cherem was wrong.

To quote the final paragraph of the conclusion of chapter 3 (which ostensibly brings the point of view against chassidus):

(http://i.imgur.com/zj6Ly84.png)

Etkes in disagreement with the claim of Mondshine, that it was the askanim of Vilna who were at the forefront, and they just harnessed the Gr"a for their purposes.

Whether one accepts Mondshine's theory or Etkes' theory, the benefit of retrospect is irrefutable. As seeing the fight as "a struggle concerning the essence of the way of Hasidism in worshiping G-d" and having "The greatest scholar of the generation..deremined that the new Hasidism was a heresy.." could only lead to the conclusion that the Cherem was wrong, with over 200 years of retrospect and the spread of תורת החסידות, making it obvious that "the new Hasidism" (to use Etkes' definition) is definitely not heresy, and that it no-less valid "way of worshiping G-d".

As a side note, while not rejecting it vehemently as Mondshine, Etkes does tend to doubt the extent of the alleged content of the exchange between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan.

As I have stated earlier. There's little doubt that the meeting between the Tzemach Tzedek and the Aruch Hashulchan happened. It is also possible that the Tzemach Tzedek said something about a benefit that came about from the Cherem (or the wars against chassidim/chassidus), however to claim that the type of benefit is as brought down in the מקור ברוך, ignores the reality of what תורת החסידות is, and of how events unfolded. A more likely explanation of the benefit would be something along the lines described here in a letter from the Alter Rebbe (quoted in יחיד בדורו, pg. 119):
(http://i.imgur.com/qU2hvZq.png)

(I hope @aygart is satisfied with the fact that I have exclusively quoted non-Lubavitch sources in this post).
I am not going to continue the circles here but I still do not see how my question was addressed.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2017, 09:43:05 PM
Seems to be some testimony out there denying the purported haskamah of R Chaim Kaminsky quoted here (http://www.yekum.org/2015/10/מיהו-הצדיק-והצודק-הגאון-מווילנה-או-הרב/) by a descendant of the Gr"a.

I managed to get my hands on a scanned PDF copy of חסידים ומתנגדים by Wilensky. It's over 740 pages long, contains plenty of documents and is well annotated. I might post some images of interest here.
Rabbi Wein says that the book has an anti chassidus slant. You are likely to see it even more than him.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: gozalim on June 19, 2017, 10:09:09 PM
Rabbi Wein says that the book has an anti chassidus slant. You are likely to see it even more than him.
coming from him that's saying something...
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2017, 10:10:12 PM
I am not going to continue the circles here but I still do not see how my question was addressed.
Not sure which question you are referring to. The last question (indicated by a question mark) that I see in your posts, was most definitely answered by me in the most traditional Jewish way of answering questions.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2017, 10:13:50 PM
Not sure which question you are referring to. The last question (indicated by a mark) that I see in your posts, was most definitely answered by me in the most traditional Jewish way of answering questions.
There is only one which would mean going in circles.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2017, 10:15:34 PM
Rabbi Wein says that the book has an anti chassidus slant. You are likely to see it even more than him.
Are you talking about Wilensky's book or Eliach's?

I have no problem objectively reading Etkes or Mondshine, and applying my critical thinking in filtering anyone's slanted writing.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2017, 10:17:43 PM
Are you talking about Wilensky's book or Eliach's?

I have no problem objectively reading Etkes or Mondshine, and applying my critical thinking in filtering anyone's slanted writing.
Wilensky
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2017, 10:22:48 PM
Wilensky
I obviously have not read it yet, but have skimmed through it, including reading some of his annotations. I find it to be a valuable source for anyone wanting to objectively analyze the history, as it contains the most comprehensive compendium of relevant documents (at least on the side of מתנגדים).
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on August 16, 2017, 12:09:40 PM
In connection to today's shiur Chumash, which starts with "בנים אתם", comes today's Hayom Yom:

(http://i.imgur.com/9b318Im.png)

P.S. despite several requests, no one has come forth to lend me Eliach's book (nor did anyone post R' Chaim Kanievsky's purported הסכמה).
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: henche on June 14, 2018, 04:04:50 PM
" frameborder="0" allow="autoplay; encrypted-media" allowfullscreen></iframe>[/youtube]


Is this mainstream chassidus?
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: hvaces42 on June 14, 2018, 06:49:40 PM
Is what chassidus? Hiskashrus to a Rebbe? Sure. Yehuda Green, no. The song, probably.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 17, 2018, 04:18:53 PM
Is what chassidus? Hiskashrus to a Rebbe? Sure. Yehuda Green, no. The song, probably.
Was going to post a link to Hayom Yom of 24 Sivan, but then came across this (http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/התקשרות), which is a little more comprehensive.
Title: Re: Origins Of Chassidus (The Good the Bad and the Ugly) And Is there A bad Jew?
Post by: ExGingi on June 09, 2020, 08:15:23 PM
Where Chassidim and Misnagdim Agree (https://files.anash.org/uploads/2020/06/theBeard.pdf)