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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: sky121 on July 25, 2017, 08:25:40 PM

Title: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: sky121 on July 25, 2017, 08:25:40 PM
I've been thinking about the Jewish people throughout history. History was never my strong suit.

Has there been a time in history when Jews had it better than we do now?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: oiseli48 on July 25, 2017, 08:26:50 PM
In the days of King Solomon
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: momo on July 25, 2017, 08:27:06 PM
First bais hamikdash?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 08:30:27 PM
First bais hamikdash?
Only for a very short time during King Solomon's reign. The gemorah relates that the night he married the daughter of the king of Egypt (at the height of his power) the seed of Rome was planted.

This topic absolutely fascinates me. As it would seem that our history is one of absolute utter failure. It's mind blowing to think about it.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 25, 2017, 08:31:32 PM
First bais hamikdash?
Obviously. I'm sure he is asking in golus...

Does he mean from a spiritual or physical perspective?

I don't think Jews have ever been so surrounded by enemies and concentrated in one place in such a state of constant danger like they are in Israel today....
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: oiseli48 on July 25, 2017, 08:33:51 PM
Only for a very short time during King Solomon's reign. The gemorah relates that the night he married the daughter of the king of Egypt (at the height of his power) the seed of Rome was planted.

That doesn't mean it still wasn't the best time physically for Jews, just because the seed of Rome was planted.

Although I don't think when Ashmedai was king things were so rosy. Between Dovid and Shlomo, there were only 80 years. The rest of our history has not been pretty
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 08:36:52 PM
That doesn't mean it still wasn't the best time physically for Jews, just because the seed of Rome was planted.

Although I don't think when Ashmedai was king things were so rosy. Between Dovid and Shlomo, there were only 80 years. The rest of our history has not been pretty
I agree with you 💯. Was just pointing (actually the gemorah is pointing this out)out that just as it seemed that the world was "in order" the beginning of our destruction had begun.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: flyingace on July 25, 2017, 08:49:33 PM
I've been thinking about the Jewish people throughout history. History was never my strong suit.

Has there been a time in history when Jews had it better than we do now?
Spain during the Golden Era was quite good. The Abassids had a liberal open-minded court and Jews did very well.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: Moshe123 on July 25, 2017, 08:58:10 PM
Obviously. I'm sure he is asking in golus...

Does he mean from a spiritual or physical perspective?

I don't think Jews have ever been so surrounded by enemies and concentrated in one place in such a state of constant danger like they are in Israel today....

Tach Tat?
Russian pogroms? Russia owned Poland and Lithuania at the time as well. Had millions of Jews.
First world war?
Holocaust?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: David Smith on July 25, 2017, 09:02:32 PM
Good is a relative term.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 25, 2017, 09:03:54 PM
Tach Tat?
Russian pogroms? Russia owned Poland and Lithuania at the time as well. Had millions of Jews.
First world war?
Holocaust?
Not talking about the actual Holocaust. Times of peace.
 How about Jews in germany in 1920 ish.. vs Jews in Israel today. Who was "safer"? I'd argue for Germany.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 09:13:41 PM
Spain during the Golden Era was quite good. The Abassids had a liberal open-minded court and Jews did very well.
How about the Jews living in other countries during those times...
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 09:17:00 PM
From a spiritual standpoint it must be the Babelonian era. The Yeshiva's of Nardu'ah and Pumpideesa stood for 1,000 years. 
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: flyingace on July 25, 2017, 09:17:33 PM
How about the Jews living in other countries during those times...
That's why I said Spain. There probably was never a time since the Churban where Jews lived in one locale exclusively and shared the same exact history.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: aygart on July 25, 2017, 09:26:49 PM
How about the Jews living in other countries during those times...
How about Jews living in other countries now? Not everywhere is the same.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 25, 2017, 09:34:21 PM
This topic absolutely fascinates me.
+1
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: sky121 on July 25, 2017, 09:36:16 PM
Obviously. I'm sure he is asking in golus...

Does he mean from a spiritual or physical perspective?

I don't think Jews have ever been so surrounded by enemies and concentrated in one place in such a state of constant danger like they are in Israel today....
No, actually I wasnt specifically asking in Golus.
I imagined it was trying first BH but I was wondering if there were other times just as good.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: gozalim on July 25, 2017, 10:14:05 PM
From a spiritual standpoint it must be the Babelonian era. The Yeshiva's of Nardu'ah and Pumpideesa stood for 1,000 years. 
and yet some of the biggest 'blanks' in our bookshelf are from portions of that era
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 10:18:42 PM
and yet some of the biggest 'blanks' in our bookshelf are from portions of that era
+1. From after the Amoraim until the early Reshonim we have virtually nothing.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: sky121 on July 25, 2017, 10:20:06 PM
+1. From after the Amoraim until the early Reshonim we have virtually nothing.
Approx how many years is that ?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: meme on July 25, 2017, 10:23:06 PM
+1. From after the Amoraim until the early Reshonim we have virtually nothing.
There is actually a lot more info out there than you think. It's just not as common of a  knowledge and you have to dig a little more.

I happen to be working on my family tree now and I have established a path through those 1000 years all the way to Dovid Hamelech.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 10:25:40 PM
Approx how many years is that ?
Not sure.
Let's try to figure it out. 2nd B"H was destroyed 2,000 years ago. The Amoroaim era was probably for another 250 years. The early Rishonim were perhaps 900/1000 years ago that leaves us around 750 blank years! Amazing! Yet there was an unbelievable amount of stability (to some degree).
Obviously I am not sure if these numbers are accurate. They are probably close.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 25, 2017, 10:26:43 PM
+1. From after the Amoraim until the early Reshonim we have virtually nothing.
There's a very technical reason.

After chasimas hatalmud, it took a few generation untill there was a NEED for reshonims explanations of the talmud.

Meanwhile there were rabonon savroi who made some additions, and geonim who focused very much on pesak between amoroim.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: Bukboy on July 25, 2017, 10:30:10 PM
Not sure.
Let's try to figure it out. 2nd B"H was destroyed 2,000 years ago. The Amoroaim era was probably for another 250 years. The early Rishonim were perhaps 900/1000 years ago that leaves us around 750 blank years! Amazing! Yet there was an unbelievable amount of stability (to some degree).
Obviously I am not sure if these numbers are accurate. They are probably close.
Why completely blank? we have the Rabunim savruya, (not sure if spelled right probably not) then we have the ge'oinem
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 10:34:43 PM
Why completely blank? we have the Rabunim savruya, (not sure if spelled right probably not) then we have the ge'oinem
There's a very technical reason.

After chasimas hatalmud, it took a few generation untill there was a NEED for reshonims explanations of the talmud.

Meanwhile there were rabonon savroi who made some additions, and geonim who focused very much on pesak between amoroim.
Makes sense.
I wasn't saying that we don't know who lived during those times. Just that we don't have much Torah from them.
Might be that a lot got lost.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: aygart on July 25, 2017, 10:38:26 PM
Not sure.
Let's try to figure it out. 2nd B"H was destroyed 2,000 years ago. The Amoroaim era was probably for another 250 years. The early Rishonim were perhaps 900/1000 years ago that leaves us around 750 blank years! Amazing! Yet there was an unbelievable amount of stability (to some degree).
Obviously I am not sure if these numbers are accurate. They are probably close.
your timeline is off. In the thousand years between the churban and the rishonim were the tanaim, amoraim, rabonon savorai, and geonim.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: meme on July 25, 2017, 10:43:17 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geonim
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: yelped on July 25, 2017, 10:46:53 PM
Makes sense.
I wasn't saying that we don't know who lived during those times. Just that we don't have much Torah from them.
Might be that a lot got lost.
There's a something about this somewhere. Why the geonim don't have much that stayed for generations. Don't remember if a Rishon wrote this or someone in the later generations... I'll hope I can jog my memory soon...
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: thaber on July 25, 2017, 10:47:05 PM
your timeline is off. In the thousand years between the churban and the rishonim were the tanaim, amoraim, rabonon savorai, and geonim.
+1
using approximate secular years
70 - churban
450-500 - chasimas hatalmud
600 - Geonim start.
mohammed died in 632, so this is also the tekufa of the Muslim beginning, caliphates etc. Bustenai, wasn't particularly restful I think
740 was the Khazar Hingdom, which lasted 500 years. might be the answer to OP's quest
this tekufa also had the Kairaites etc. made a lot of trouble as well
942 - Reish gelusa was abolished, but had lasted 700 years
Rashi was born in 1040

Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 10:47:12 PM
your timeline is off. In the thousand years between the churban and the rishonim were the tanaim, amoraim, rabonon savorai, and geonim.
When the era of the Amoraim end?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 25, 2017, 10:48:30 PM
+1
using approximate secular years
70 - churban
450-500 - chasimas hatalmud
600 - Geonim start.
mohammed died in 632, so this is also the tekufa of the Muslim beginning, caliphates etc. Bustenai, wasn't particularly restful I think
740 was the Khazar Hingdom, which lasted 500 years. might be the answer to OP's quest
this tekufa also had the Kairaites etc. made a lot of trouble as well
942 - Reish gelusa was abolished, but had lasted 700 years
Rashi was born in 1040

When the era of the Amoraim end?
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/c5d8a04fe5d0ff1dc3281befbadfcbdf.jpg)
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: aygart on July 25, 2017, 10:48:40 PM
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_of_Jewish_history
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: meme on July 25, 2017, 10:49:55 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/c5d8a04fe5d0ff1dc3281befbadfcbdf.jpg)
I guess that means I can still be an Acharon?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 25, 2017, 10:50:37 PM
I guess that means I can still be an Acharon?
Yes! You can do it!!
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 25, 2017, 10:50:48 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/c5d8a04fe5d0ff1dc3281befbadfcbdf.jpg)
So that puts the savoraim/Geonim era closer to 500 years than 750.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: thaber on July 25, 2017, 10:52:00 PM
When the era of the Amoraim end?
with the chasimas hatalmud. Rabanan savroi were the next generation
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: meme on July 25, 2017, 10:55:16 PM
Yes! You can do it!!
I think the current era after the Acharonim is called the Lamdanim.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: Bukboy on July 25, 2017, 10:58:32 PM
I think the current era after the Acharonim is called the Lamdanim.
Neh תחתונים
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: churnbabychurn on July 25, 2017, 11:03:04 PM
Neh תחתונים
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: good sam on July 25, 2017, 11:50:38 PM
I guess that means I can still be an Acharon?
Raises an interesting question as to how future generations will refer to our gedolim (beginning sometime in the 1800s, post-achronim).
I think the current era after the Acharonim is called the Lamdanim.
Maybe the Roshei Yeshiva.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: Yammer on July 26, 2017, 01:03:02 AM


Obviously. I'm sure he is asking in golus...

Does he mean from a spiritual or physical perspective?

I don't think Jews have ever been so surrounded by enemies and concentrated in one place in such a state of constant danger like they are in Israel today....

In the times of the Rashbi over 50% of the Jewish population in Spain converted to Christianity...


You should pick up the book Sand and Stars. Pretty light but goes through the golus years
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: grodnoking on July 26, 2017, 02:25:56 AM
Raises an interesting question as to how future generations will refer to our gedolim (beginning sometime in the 1800s, post-achronim).Maybe the Roshei Yeshiva.
I'd say post achronim started end of 1800's, beginning of 1900's. Maybe after the Chofetz Chaim.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: Yammer on July 26, 2017, 02:45:51 AM
I'd say post achronim started end of 1800's, beginning of 1900's. Maybe after the Chofetz Chaim.
Many consider the war the cutoff
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: Proisrael on July 26, 2017, 08:00:29 AM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170726/c5d8a04fe5d0ff1dc3281befbadfcbdf.jpg)

Never realized how "close" Rashi was to the Amoraim..
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: gozalim on July 26, 2017, 01:46:35 PM
Was referring specifically to the lack of seforim which have remained with us
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: aygart on July 26, 2017, 02:08:30 PM
Was referring specifically to the lack of seforim which have remained with us
How many do we have from the period of amoraim
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: chevron on July 26, 2017, 02:12:51 PM
Robert Brody is an expert on this, from the close of the talmud (including the compilation of it etc) to the period of the early gaonim is very blurry, we know about the Savoranim but we do not know who they were andhave very little in terms of Sheilot and Teshuvot though we do know that the savoranim were the last in dictating the oral law interpretations and were sort of in between the Amoraim and the Horaa of the Gaonim.

Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: chevron on July 26, 2017, 02:15:27 PM
How many do we have from the period of amoraim

A lot of manuscripts and scrolls were passed on though much was lost
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: zh cohen on July 26, 2017, 03:04:36 PM
Neh תחתונים

Either this or the מלקטים
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: somefield on July 26, 2017, 03:53:55 PM
Robert Brody is an expert on this, from the close of the talmud (including the compilation of it etc) to the period of the early gaonim is very blurry, we know about the Savoranim but we do not know who they were andhave very little in terms of Sheilot and Teshuvot though we do know that the savoranim were the last in dictating the oral law interpretations and were sort of in between the Amoraim and the Horaa of the Gaonim.
+1
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: gozalim on July 26, 2017, 04:32:46 PM
Either this or the מלקטים
how about just גדולים?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: aygart on July 26, 2017, 05:02:52 PM
Either this or the מלקטים
Most of those won't be around for it to be nogieah.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: chevron on July 26, 2017, 05:36:24 PM
Machmirim... Mesorah be damned, we need more chumros.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: jackofall on July 27, 2017, 01:01:22 AM
Don't forget that prior to the destruction of the 1st B"H 75% (עשרת השבטים)of our nation is exiled/abolished into oblivion - never to been heard of since...
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: good sam on July 27, 2017, 04:20:19 PM
How many do we have from the period of amoraim
You're asking from a time when writing was mostly avoided.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: aygart on July 27, 2017, 05:20:12 PM
You're asking from a time when writing was mostly avoided.
That was my point. What was the shita about writing in the times of the geonim?
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: good sam on July 27, 2017, 05:41:25 PM
That was my point. What was the shita about writing in the times of the geonim?
I don't know.
Title: Re: When did the Jews have it best?
Post by: gozalim on July 27, 2017, 08:58:59 PM
How many do we have from the period of amoraim
only the single greatest classic ever, pretty much
תלמוד בבלי