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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: ADG on October 02, 2017, 12:39:48 PM

Title: Bidding in Shul
Post by: ADG on October 02, 2017, 12:39:48 PM

I wanted to open the floor to discuss the methods shuls offer kibbudim and raise money.

In our shul we use the old fashion bidding method which seems to me like it can use an upgrade. I wont litigate the cons with the current system I just want to know if other communities have developed different ways to go about this process.

Thanks
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Sport on October 02, 2017, 12:59:51 PM
I wanted to open the floor to discuss the methods shuls offer kibbudim and raise money.

In our shul we use the old fashion bidding method which seems to me like it can use an upgrade. I wont litigate the cons with the current system I just want to know if other communities have developed different ways to go about this process.

Thanks
What are you considering the old fashioned way?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: ADG on October 02, 2017, 01:23:00 PM
What are you considering the old fashioned way?
Live auction...
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Tuna Baygel on October 02, 2017, 01:31:41 PM
How about selling certain aliyos in exchange for paying specific shul expenses

For example each aliyah for yisrael on rosh hashanah and yom kipur would mean you commit to pay a months electricity
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: chevron on October 02, 2017, 01:32:47 PM
In my shull, a lot is done by groups, a group of guys buy neila etc for say 360 times chai each
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: ShlockDoc on October 02, 2017, 02:22:58 PM
Does anyone know how/when the auction minhag started?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 02, 2017, 02:26:42 PM
In my shull, a lot is done by groups, a group of guys buy neila etc for say 360 times chai each
And the whole group opens the ark?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: ADG on October 02, 2017, 03:57:22 PM
Our shul is very cozy- 15 men on average and I noticed it was always the same half participating in the bidding and also people rarely bid against each other because they could just buy the next thing and also because I dont think ppl like bidding against each other.

I was thinking about a silent action where everyone is given a card and then the Gabai can determine who wins. Has anyone seen such a system in place?

Thanks
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Dan on October 02, 2017, 04:07:09 PM
Online bidding has to be the way to go.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: yitzgar on October 02, 2017, 04:11:06 PM
People will spend more if they're in shul right before the kibud is about to be given out
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Dan on October 02, 2017, 04:11:37 PM
People will spend more if they're in shul right before the kibud is about to be given out
Why?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: ADG on October 02, 2017, 04:12:49 PM
People will spend more if they're in shul right before the kibud is about to be given out

Not necessarily- I find the live auction makes me bid less. And it is so fast its over before I can even think about it.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: mochjas on October 02, 2017, 04:13:27 PM
Why?
you're in the moment, and you cant miss it. Someone can forget about the online auction and not buy anything
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: koplonko on October 02, 2017, 04:36:22 PM
Does anyone know how/when the auction minhag started?
Is quoted in shulchan aruch
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: noturbizniss on October 02, 2017, 05:26:44 PM
bid with blat gmarah instead of cash
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: gozalim on October 02, 2017, 06:02:39 PM
I've heard of Chabad houses doing "mitzvah auctions" where bids are taking on new mitzvos/hachlatos
(obviously not gonna be able to be as comparitive/competitive...)
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Dan on October 02, 2017, 06:10:18 PM
I've heard of Chabad houses doing "mitzvah auctions" where bids are taking on new mitzvos/hachlatos
(obviously not gonna be able to be as comparitive/competitive...)
In YOEC each perek tanya baal peh was worth $18 towards aliyas.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Something Fishy on October 02, 2017, 06:26:30 PM
My grandfather says that in the big shul in Debrecen announcing bids was considered improper ("what is this, a marketplace?"). He remembers everyone sitting in perfect silence while the gabbai walked up and down the aisles with an abacus, and whoever wanted would mark down their bids on that.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Sport on October 02, 2017, 07:00:45 PM
you're in the moment, and you cant miss it. Someone can forget about the online auction and not buy anything
Combine the 2. Highest bid from online auction will be the opening bid in shul.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: US on October 02, 2017, 07:28:29 PM
Does anyone know how/when the auction minhag started?
See Shulchan Aruch, Shabbos - 306, Mugein Avrum 15.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: mochjas on October 02, 2017, 07:29:07 PM
Combine the 2. Highest bid from online auction will be the opening bid in shul.
dont see a point in that
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Sport on October 02, 2017, 07:32:36 PM
dont see a point in that
Can speed up the process.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Yammer on October 02, 2017, 07:38:42 PM
I can't see online bidding working.

1. You need to build a bidding platform or pay a fee for one.

2. People aren't yet in the spirit yet, are busy , many ppl at work etc.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: mochjas on October 02, 2017, 07:41:25 PM
I can't see online bidding working.

1. You need to build a bidding platform or pay a fee for one.

2. People aren't yet in the spirit yet, are busy , many ppl at work etc.
many shuls just presell online and I guess auction off whatever wasn't bought
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: This is who I am on October 02, 2017, 08:07:52 PM
The shul I went to gives out the kibudem before the chagim to members of the shul participate and help out with davening,layning, minyanim, and all around to keep the shul and events going. And the opening and closing the aron over the chagim was given out t the rest of the people in shul. 
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Am on October 02, 2017, 08:10:49 PM
Idea: Everyone that bids has to pay regardless if they win or not but you only have to make one payment per auction so that way you arenít more than doubling your obligation with every additional bid. The final price will be lower but the total amount to the shul very well might be higher
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: This is who I am on October 02, 2017, 08:31:22 PM
Idea: Everyone that bids has to pay regardless if they win or not but you only have to make one payment per auction so that way you arenít more than doubling your obligation with every additional bid. The final price will be lower but the total amount to the shul very well might be higher
When I was in Yeshiva they did this, but with blat of Gemrah, if you did not win you had to do half of your last bid.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: koplonko on October 02, 2017, 08:33:23 PM
Idea: Everyone that bids has to pay regardless if they win or not but you only have to make one payment per auction so that way you arenít more than doubling your obligation with every additional bid. The final price will be lower but the total amount to the shul very well might be higher
That idea was mentioned already: 👇
See Shulchan Aruch, Shabbos - 306, Mugein Avrum 15.
And other poskim
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: yelped on October 02, 2017, 08:40:23 PM
Does anyone know how/when the auction minhag started?
Pm me. I can email you a whole bunch of sources. Someone I know gave a shout on this topic last week.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: EJB on October 02, 2017, 10:25:43 PM
Live is better than online. My job this year was to make everyone else pay more . Thatís harder to do online
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Dan on October 02, 2017, 10:27:52 PM
Cost/benefit analysis for the time wasted?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 02, 2017, 10:37:22 PM
Live is better than online. My job this year was to make everyone else pay more . Thatís harder to do online
Isn't that against the TOS?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: EJB on October 02, 2017, 10:38:49 PM
Cost/benefit analysis for the time wasted?
And entertainment/refreshments (we had light dinner and wine)
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: EJB on October 02, 2017, 10:39:39 PM
Isn't that against the TOS?
Unofficial job. No one told me to do it, but they did thank me afterward when w crushed our record
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Yammer on October 03, 2017, 01:47:58 AM
many shuls just presell online and I guess auction off whatever wasn't bought
He stated above that he's trying to get more ppl involved. IMHO Less ppl for online ( for reasons stated above ) means less.
Unofficial job. No one told me to do it, but they did thank me afterward when w crushed our record
Good for you.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: jj1000 on October 03, 2017, 08:22:21 AM
And entertainment/refreshments (we had light dinner and wine)
I'd also bid more if my rav served me a light dinner and wine on YK during bidding.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: chevron on October 03, 2017, 02:13:47 PM
And entertainment/refreshments (we had light dinner and wine)

wine list ?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: chevron on October 03, 2017, 02:14:20 PM
I'd also bid more if my rav served me a light dinner and wine on YK during bidding.

me too!
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: elit on October 03, 2017, 02:21:48 PM
Not necessarily- I find the live auction makes me bid less. And it is so fast its over before I can even think about it.
then the auctioneers got to go slower, tell some jokes etc...
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: mochjas on October 03, 2017, 02:31:15 PM
then the auctioneers got to go slower, tell some jokes etc...
bidding is like 45 minutes in my shul, I prefer he goes faster
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: chevron on October 03, 2017, 02:34:26 PM
bidding is like 45 minutes in my shul, I prefer he goes faster

for us its perfect, on RH we get to tekias shofar right on time, on YK who cares
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: EJB on October 03, 2017, 07:46:14 PM
 90 minutes here. They drag it out
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: This is who I am on October 03, 2017, 07:59:55 PM
http://matzav.com/rosh-yeshivas-inspiring-yom-kippur-decision-1400-dapim-of-gemara-over-30000/
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Yammer on October 03, 2017, 08:08:42 PM
90 minutes here. They drag it out
Wow. And ppl doesn't complain?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: EJB on October 03, 2017, 08:44:14 PM
Wow. And ppl doesn't complain?
You donít have to come. You can call in or text a bid as well
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Yammer on October 03, 2017, 09:03:25 PM
You donít have to come. You can call in or text a bid as well
Oh, I understood that it was done in Shul

Live is better than online. My job this year was to make everyone else pay more . Thatís harder to do online

Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: eliteflyer on October 04, 2017, 09:43:16 AM
bid with blat gmarah instead of cash
Not to useful to keeping the lights on in the shul.

A shul I used to go to in Brooklyn allowed people to pay their bids either in dollars or volunteer hours with each hour being worth $54. Was actually a great move, because the shul had many events that would never happen if not for volunteers.

That being said, overall, I find the auctioning business of questionable benefit: Is the donor base actually increased through the auction and do participants contribute any more than they would have otherwise donated to the shul without a kibud? What's the record on collecting the funds (and this is an area where online bidding would probably be more effective with a credit card payment made upfront)?
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: aygart on October 04, 2017, 10:40:47 AM
Not to useful to keeping the lights on in the shul.

A shul I used to go to in Brooklyn allowed people to pay their bids either in dollars or volunteer hours with each hour being worth $54. Was actually a great move, because the shul had many events that would never happen if not for volunteers.

That being said, overall, I find the auctioning business of questionable benefit: Is the donor base actually increased through the auction and do participants contribute any more than they would have otherwise donated to the shul without a kibud? What's the record on collecting the funds (and this is an area where online bidding would probably be more effective with a credit card payment made upfront)?
Bidding also has the benefit of no arguments over who gets what.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: Dan on October 04, 2017, 10:41:55 AM
What's the record on collecting the funds (and this is an area where online bidding would probably be more effective with a credit card payment made upfront)?
My shul has 5 figures outstanding.
Another reason to move the bidding online with payment required upfront.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: EJB on October 04, 2017, 10:57:26 AM
Oh, I understood that it was done in Shul

It was, but some people physically come, some can't make it and tell representatives what they want to bid for and what their max is, and some ppl call in.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: ckmk47 on October 04, 2017, 11:01:05 AM
My shul has 5 figures outstanding.
Another reason to move the bidding online with payment required upfront.
Perhaps someone who's behind in their payments by X amount, shouldn't be allowed to bid.
Title: Re: Bidding in Shul
Post by: chevron on October 04, 2017, 12:08:32 PM
Perhaps someone who's behind in their payments by X amount, shouldn't be allowed to bid.

I actually brought that up, but usually stuff gets paid. I owe my shull a few k and have a monthly cc billing, but I stopped buying on my own, not sure thats good