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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: chevron on October 23, 2017, 04:52:16 PM

Title: "One Of Us"
Post by: chevron on October 23, 2017, 04:52:16 PM
https://decider.com/2017/10/20/netflix-one-of-us-review/
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 23, 2017, 06:57:01 PM
https://decider.com/2017/10/20/netflix-one-of-us-review/
Is this movie pro or against the Torah?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 23, 2017, 07:06:32 PM
Is this movie pro or against the Torah?
Definitly not pro. Why dont you watch it and decide for yourself?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 23, 2017, 07:49:17 PM
Definitly not pro. Why dont you watch it and decide for yourself?
Don't have Netflix...maybe would if on you tube (or telegram? ;) )
 But Stam curious for now...
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Yehuda57 on October 23, 2017, 07:54:00 PM
https://decider.com/2017/10/20/netflix-one-of-us-review/
There's been talk of victim blaming recently, how about this, from the movie's producer:

Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 23, 2017, 07:55:39 PM
Don't have Netflix...maybe would if on you tube (or telegram? ;) )
 But Stam curious for now...
Don't know how to make that happen, but if you really want to watch it pm me and I'll get you access.
There's a lot to say about the movie, a lot more than just pro or against torah. I'm still processing and don't have a fully formulated judgment.
Though I will say its heart wrenching and painful, on several fronts.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 23, 2017, 07:57:32 PM
There's been talk of victim blaming recently, how about this, from the movie's producer:

Outrageous.
Fwiw, She did appoligize and clarify that she meant since chassidim dont change their dress they were more easily identified as jews and couldn't hide.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Dan on October 23, 2017, 07:58:52 PM
There's been talk of victim blaming recently, how about this, from the movie's producer:


That's a whole new level of cluelessness. The Nazis didn't search for Jews by their Payos.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Yehuda57 on October 23, 2017, 08:00:02 PM
Outrageous.
Fwiw, She did appoligize and clarify that she meant since chassidim dont change their dress they were more easily identified as jews and couldn't hide.
And she finished the apology saying she applauds anyone who proudly lives their truth, when her movie makes no attempt to even slightly show Chassidim living their truth
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on October 23, 2017, 08:01:33 PM
Is this movie pro or against the Torah?

@heimishcon live tweeted his watching of it.

Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 23, 2017, 10:22:57 PM
There's been talk of victim blaming recently, how about this, from the movie's producer:

as stupid and wrong her statement is I don't think it is helpful at all to respond to this documentary by going after ppl involved
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 23, 2017, 10:28:38 PM
That's a whole new level of cluelessness. The Nazis didn't search for Jews by their Payos.
I just re-listend, her comments are more clueless than I original thought.  She should really get a clue about the subjects featured in a film she's producing.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 23, 2017, 10:29:53 PM
as stupid and wrong her statement is I don't think it is helpful at all to respond to this documentary by going after ppl involved
True.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: skyguy918 on October 23, 2017, 10:32:42 PM
I just re-listend, her comments are more clueless than I original thought.  She should really get a clue about the subjects featured in a film she's producing.
Click through to the twitter thread to see one of the 'stars' attempting to back her up.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: good sam on October 23, 2017, 10:36:59 PM
as stupid and wrong her statement is I don't think it is helpful at all to respond to this documentary by going after ppl involved
It's useful to know if the filmmaker has an anti-chassidic bias because there are (i assume) claims made in the film which are supported only by testimony, the accuracy of which require the viewer's trust. From that clip it appears she does have such a bias.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 23, 2017, 10:40:14 PM
It's useful to know if the filmmaker has an anti-chassidic bias because there are (i assume) claims made in the film which are supported only by testimony, the accuracy of which require the viewer's trust. From that clip it appears she does have such a bias.
don't think there's any doubt that there was anti chassidic bias by the producers but there is also.no doubt that these storylines have and ate happening over and over again  regardless if the specifics of these individual stories are true.
let's look inward and see what we can fix as oppose to attacking outward which helps no one
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 23, 2017, 10:41:31 PM
Click through to the twitter thread to see one of the 'stars' attempting to back her up.
Ive seen it on fb. And that's why I agree with @elit above. Attacking the people involved in the film comes off as insecure and tone def to "their" pain and suffering- we'll do anything to discredit the message or messenger in order to not face the dark reality "they" brought to light.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Menachem613 on October 24, 2017, 07:57:41 AM
don't think there's any doubt that there was anti chassidic bias by the producers but there is also.no doubt that these storylines have and ate happening over and over again  regardless if the specifics of these individual stories are true.
let's look inward and see what we can fix as oppose to attacking outward which helps no one

I watched the film and although it was very sad there was nothing shocking or controversial.  In short, for chasidim who leave the fold there's a very high price to pay - and the community makes sure of that.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 24, 2017, 08:21:17 AM
I watched the film and although it was very sad there was nothing shocking or controversial.  In short, for chasidim who leave the fold there's a very high price to pay - and the community makes sure of that.
And that's something to be proud of?
What about their reasons for wanting to leave the fold? Is that not shocking?, or are we so accustomed to hearing how people were abused and no one did anything that it's nit shocking?
you feel comfortable with the movies portrayal of how the chasidish community deals with people who have difficult questions?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 08:24:58 AM
And she finished the apology saying she applauds anyone who proudly lives their truth, when her movie makes no attempt to even slightly show Chassidim living their truth

It does attempt to show a few specific human being trying to live their truth. That idea is there.

But yes, this movie is NOT a movie about Chassidim and how they live exactly.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 08:31:33 AM

What about their reasons for wanting to leave the fold? Is that not shocking?, or are we so accustomed to hearing how people were abused and no one did anything that it's nit shocking?


I wonder if MOST people who leave Chassidish communities were abused.
Obviously not all are. I just wonder if most are.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Yehuda57 on October 24, 2017, 08:35:15 AM
It does attempt to show a few specific human being trying to live their truth. That idea is there.

But yes, this movie is NOT a movie about Chassidim and how they live exactly.
To show a few individuals living their truth, they absolutely needed to deride and denigrate tens of thousands of other individuals living their truth.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 24, 2017, 08:44:26 AM
I wonder if MOST people who leave Chassidish communities were abused.
Obviously not all are. I just wonder if most are.
I can tell you this, regardless of if its all or not, its way too many.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 08:47:15 AM
I can tell you this, regardless of if its all or not, its way too many.

Of course it is way too many. One would be way too many. How many are there really? I don't think there are nearly as many as those who try to use this issue to bash the community would like you to think.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 08:48:32 AM
Of course it is way too many. One would be way too many. How many are there really? I don't think there are nearly as many as those who try to use this issue to bash the community would like you to think.
unfortunately you are very wrong
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 08:50:35 AM
unfortunately you are very wrong
Do you have any source for real numbers? It seems to me that everyone prefers there not be. Some to downplay the issue and some to blow it up.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Sport on October 24, 2017, 08:51:17 AM
Of course it is way too many. One would be way too many. How many are there really? I don't think there are nearly as many as those who try to use this issue to bash the community would like you to think.
Sorry but you're very wrong.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 08:51:30 AM
Of course it is way too many. One would be way too many. How many are there really? I don't think there are nearly as many as those who try to use this issue to bash the community would like you to think.
studies show that unhindered molesters typically abuse over 30 childrenand that's in secular society where there much less access to children.  then throw in a society that often protects the abuser and you have an unmitigated crisis
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 08:51:39 AM
Of course it is way too many. One would be way too many. How many are there really? I don't think there are nearly as many as those who try to use this issue to bash the community would like you to think.

Leaving the Yeshivish community is generally not as hard on those who leave the Chassidish community.  So my question is specifically geared towards Chassidim. And I have to imagine it's a lot of people that are abused. Because leaving must be so hard. And you'd need enough of a "push" to do it and to give up all that you are giving up.
That's why I imagine it's probably many of them. 



I wouldn't necessarily say the same thing for those leaving non Chassidish communities. 
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 08:52:43 AM
studies show that unhindered molesters typically abuse over 30 childrenand that's in secular society where there much less access to children.  then throw in a society that often protects the abuser and you have an unmitigated crisis
This is purely conjecture.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 08:52:56 AM
To show a few individuals living their truth, they absolutely needed to deride and denigrate tens of thousands of other individuals living their truth.

They are just focusing in on a specific negative behavior (and truth) of many chassidish communities.

They are just showing the truth for plenty of people who try leaving the Chassidish community.    Again, this is not a movie about the Chassidish community. It's about what it's like for many people who try leaving.  Is it pretty? No. Does it show Jews in a good light? Def not.

As a Yid it doesn't feel good having our faults in the spotlight.
And I do personally look as them as faults. I am aware that there are many others out there who feel the people treating those who wish to leave in awful ways are justified. 





Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 08:53:47 AM
Do you have any source for real numbers? It seems to me that everyone prefers there not be. Some to downplay the issue and some to blow it up.
anyone who is involved with this population will tell you that you are wrong... it's obviously a hard thing to get real data on...
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 08:53:53 AM
Sorry but you're very wrong.
Do you have any source for real numbers? It seems to me that everyone prefers there not be. Some to downplay the issue and some to blow it up.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 08:54:48 AM
anyone who is involved with this population will tell you that you are wrong... it's obviously a hard thing to get real data on...

It also happens to not be the main focus of this specific documentary.

Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 08:54:49 AM
This is purely conjecture.
which part?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 08:54:57 AM
anyone who is involved with this population will tell you that you are wrong... it's obviously a hard thing to get real data on...

I've spoken to some and I guess they were nobodies.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 08:55:46 AM
which part?
Everything past the first ten words at best.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 08:57:40 AM
I've spoken to some and I guess they were nobodies.
don't know who.you have spoken but I find it impossible that some one who works with the chassidic OTD population told you that there isn't  a significant percentage of abuse. it's absolutely impossible.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 09:01:53 AM
Everything past the first ten words at best.
obviously it wasn't  an empirical fact but its a very logical statement that I have heard from experts in the field and is born out by way too much anecdotal evidence.
anyway what would be the motive of a frum ehlirch people who dedicate their  lives to saving these kids to exaggerate the numbers?. OTOH what motive do community leaders who do not want this issue discussed or addressed have in downplaying it
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 09:09:39 AM
don't know who.you have spoken but I find it impossible that some one who works with the chassidic OTD population told you that there isn't  a significant percentage of abuse. it's absolutely impossible.
I am sure there are "signficant numbers" depending on how you define it and never said otherwise. OTOH that may not be anywhere close to the amounts that some would like to make it out to be to advance their agenda. Those who i spoke to also felt that while there is definitely an issue which needs to be resolved, there are many who blow it out of proportion to advance their own agenda and that these people are doing a disservice to the real victims.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 09:12:50 AM
I am sure there are "signficant numbers" depending on how you define it and never said otherwise. OTOH that may not be anywhere close to the amounts that some would like to make it out to be to advance their agenda. Those who i spoke to also felt that while there is definitely an issue which needs to be resolved, there are many who blow it out of proportion to advance their own agenda and that these people are doing a disservice to the real victims.
what are these agendas they are advancing?  And how do they do a disservice to the victims by making it sound like a bigger issue
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 09:14:39 AM
I am sure there are "signficant numbers" depending on how you define it and never said otherwise. OTOH that may not be anywhere close to the amounts that some would like to make it out to be to advance their agenda. Those who i spoke to also felt that while there is definitely an issue which needs to be resolved, there are many who blow it out of proportion to advance their own agenda and that these people are doing a disservice to the real victims.
You may be right. But we can all agree that there is an issue. And instead of discussing if the problem is bigger or smaller it seems more beneficial to discuss the problem and what can be done to start actually helping the issue at hand, helping the victims, and helping create a society where those victims feels safe speaking out.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 09:16:15 AM
what are these agendas they are advancing?  And how do they do a disservice to the victims by making it sound like a bigger issue
There are many who use this issue to bash the community. That puts people who can resolve things appropriately on the defensive and makes it more difficult for them to do so since they are concerned that anything they do to resolve will be used to destroy. This is part of the answer to this.
OTOH what motive do community leaders who do not want this issue discussed or addressed have in downplaying it

Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 09:19:28 AM
There are many who use this issue to bash the community. That puts people who can resolve things appropriately on the defensive and makes it more difficult for them to do so since they are concerned that anything they do to resolve will be used to destroy. This is part of the answer to this.

That's going to happen either way. People are going to use the issue to bash the community no matter what you say. And do you HONESTLY think trying to convince them the problem is smaller than they think is going to help?   If anything it makes it come across that your energy is all going into defending your community where if you really want to help your community you would work on helping the issue.

And just as a side note, if those bashing the community because of issues like this heard you say "you're right, we have an issue, let's work on fixing this" they may be a whole lot less inclined to focus on the bashing and start working together to start creating solutions.

When you defend a community that clearly has this major issue, it doesn't look to others that you're listening to the problems and wanting to be part of the solution.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: sillypainter on October 24, 2017, 09:49:21 AM
I look at all characters in the movie as displaying their own story. Every Jewish Family has their own way of doing things, so if one family is at fault or even 3 it does mean that there is a huge problem. There are trouble makers and bad people in every group.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 09:59:04 AM
That's going to happen either way. People are going to use the issue to bash the community no matter what you say. And do you HONESTLY think trying to convince them the problem is smaller than they think is going to help?   If anything it makes it come across that your energy is all going into defending your community where if you really want to help your community you would work on helping the issue.

And just as a side note, if those bashing the community because of issues like this heard you say "you're right, we have an issue, let's work on fixing this" they may be a whole lot less inclined to focus on the bashing and start working together to start creating solutions.

When you defend a community that clearly has this major issue, it doesn't look to others that you're listening to the problems and wanting to be part of the solution.
+100 that's excuse making "other people are bashing us so we need to defend ourselves instead of helping" do u not realize how lame that sounds? maybe if there were people and organizations from within helping these kids there would be less focus and highlighting of organizations like footsteps.
I know people who are trying to work with and within the chassidic community and have no desire to bash them in anyway and they say it's really bad...
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: Aaaron on October 24, 2017, 10:05:29 AM
Can we get this broken off into its own thread?
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 10:20:19 AM
+100 that's excuse making "other people are bashing us so we need to defend ourselves instead of helping" do u not realize how lame that sounds? maybe if there were people and organizations from within helping these kids there would be less focus and highlighting of organizations like footsteps.
I know people who are trying to work with and within the chassidic community and have no desire to bash them in anyway and they say it's really bad...
It is not an excuse for anything but is human nature nonetheless.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: chevron on October 24, 2017, 12:14:36 PM
WOW I posted an article and started this monster.

The reason you'll see more people leaving chasidic community and judaism is they are very rigid and exclusive.

Take chabad, I dont wear a hat, trim my beard etc and I dont feel like an outsider, yeah people make cute quips about my beard but its ok.

When chasidim learn to balance and be able to be a chasid in the modern world as is the case fairly so with chabad, you'd find more of compatibility with those that may not dance to every tune.

I have noticed lately so many chasidic guys with peyos but trimmed / shaved
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: hvaces42 on October 24, 2017, 12:18:01 PM
As someone who grew up in a yeshiva where corporal punishment was the norm and where some rebbeim took it to a sadistic level i can sympathize with what is deemed abuse today. Some of the OTD community will say they were abused and not be specific in mentioning that it wasnt sexual abuse, but rather corporal punishment. Men hitting wives is abuse, fathers, mothers, or rebbeim disciplining a child with corporal punishment, is unaccepted today but was the norm not too long ago. Was that abuse, maybe.

We have a classmate who went OTD (he claims) because he was abused by the exact same rebbe that we all had. He was not sexually abused. He just couldnt handle the corporal punishment. We (his classmates) had the same experience and did handle it. This is a sixth grade rebbe. He went OTD somewhere in his Bais Medrash years.


Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 02:47:20 PM
This whole film really comes down to the lack of respect ben adam l'chavero that the community has.  What good accomplishes from shunning others? Especially when you can so clearly see that all the individuals in the film would like to have some connection to Yiddeshkeit.   (Though that isn't always the case, there are people that want to leave and get as far away as possible as well. ) 
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Dan on October 24, 2017, 02:51:29 PM
WOW I posted an article and started this monster.

The reason you'll see more people leaving chasidic community and judaism is they are very rigid and exclusive.

Take chabad, I dont wear a hat, trim my beard etc and I dont feel like an outsider, yeah people make cute quips about my beard but its ok.

When chasidim learn to balance and be able to be a chasid in the modern world as is the case fairly so with chabad, you'd find more of compatibility with those that may not dance to every tune.

I have noticed lately so many chasidic guys with peyos but trimmed / shaved
The pro is that nobody feels ostracized. That's for sure a big pro as they don't feel the need to either conform or go OTD.
The con is that more people seem to think it's not a contradiction to be a Chabad chosid with a trimmed beard, drink C"S, not wear a kapota, send your kids to coed schools, etc...
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Sport on October 24, 2017, 03:28:37 PM
The pro is that nobody feels ostracized. That's for sure a big pro as they don't feel the need to either conform or go OTD.
The con is that more people seem to think it's not a contradiction to be a Chabad chosid with a trimmed beard, drink C"S, not wear a kapota, send your kids to coed schools, etc...
Conforming shouldnt be the motivation behind those choices.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Dan on October 24, 2017, 03:36:41 PM
Conforming shouldnt be the motivation behind those choices.
Mitoch shelo lishmah ba lishmah
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 24, 2017, 05:02:56 PM
I don't think there are nearly as many as those who try to use this issue to bash the community would like you to think.
Where have I heard this before?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 05:04:18 PM
Where have I heard this before?
Last time I said it?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 24, 2017, 05:05:23 PM
Last time I said it?
No I am thinking in my circles.  ;)
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 05:06:02 PM
No I am thinking in my circles.  ;)
It is probably true there too
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 24, 2017, 05:07:03 PM
It is probably true there too
No it turned out to be a bigger problem than we ever thought.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 05:07:54 PM
No it turned out to be a bigger problem than we ever thought.
Who is we
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 24, 2017, 05:29:51 PM
Who is we
Congregation.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 05:44:35 PM
Congregation.
The congregation was only looking to bash?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 24, 2017, 05:47:31 PM
The congregation was only looking to bash?
Oops misread your post, my bad.  :-[
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 05:51:01 PM
Oops misread your post, my bad.  :-[
No worries. so did everyone else.
Do you have any source for real numbers? It seems to me that everyone prefers there not be. Some to downplay the issue and some to blow it up.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sguitarist18 on October 24, 2017, 06:57:18 PM
First of all - anyone else amused by the producer's last name?

The problem, as always, is that many of the people who would want the community to take a real look at the problem and deal with it would, in a millisecond, use any admission of a problem as an excuse for further bashing, lawsuits, and investigations, which perpetuates the problem.

And this is not a film about showing the truth of a few people, it's a film about bashing the chasidic community, by showing painful experiences through the eyes of people who had very unfortunate situations happen to them.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 24, 2017, 07:01:28 PM
First of all - anyone else amused by the producer's last name?

The problem, as always, is that many of the people who claim they want the community to take a real look at the problem and deal with it would, in a millisecond, use any admission of a problem as an excuse for further bashing, lawsuits, and investigations, which perpetuates the problem.

FTFY

There are some who are after a real look and for it to be dealt with. They wouldn't do these stuff. Those who would prevent real solutions.
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: zh cohen on October 24, 2017, 07:13:21 PM
It's useful to know if the filmmaker has an anti-chassidic bias because there are (i assume) claims made in the film which are supported only by testimony, the accuracy of which require the viewer's trust. From that clip it appears she does have such a bias.

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Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 24, 2017, 07:29:14 PM
First of all - anyone else amused by the producer's last name?

The problem, as always, is that many of the people who would want the community to take a real look at the problem and deal with it would, in a millisecond, use any admission of a problem as an excuse for further bashing, lawsuits, and investigations, which perpetuates the problem.

And this is not a film about showing the truth of a few people, it's a film about bashing the chasidic community, by showing painful experiences through the eyes of people who had very unfortunate situations happen to them.
Does anyone leave the Chassish world in a not awful situation?  Most don't.


Meanwhile it was never meant to showcase the world of Chassidim.   It's showing the world of those who want to leave. 


Honestly I didn't think the film was that well done. I've seen other documentaries that explained what goes on when people choose to leave way better. I can easily imagine how they were treated by their families and communities but for someone who doesn't know that world they didn't actually do a good job portraying what goes on.

Which is only a good thing because obviously videos like this sometimes give negative views towards all Jews, period.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: elit on October 24, 2017, 07:43:38 PM
https://cross-currents.com/2017/10/23/chassidim-opt-netflix-documentary/
this.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Freddie on October 24, 2017, 09:58:21 PM
The pro is that nobody feels ostracized. That's for sure a big pro as they don't feel the need to either conform or go OTD.
The con is that more people seem to think it's not a contradiction to be a Chabad chosid with a trimmed beard, drink C"S, not wear a kapota, send your kids to coed schools, etc...

Thank you, @Dan.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Yehuda57 on October 24, 2017, 10:13:56 PM
https://cross-currents.com/2017/10/23/chassidim-opt-netflix-documentary/
this.

Curious, did you watch the film, or are you thising this because it thises your preconceived opinions?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sguitarist18 on October 25, 2017, 09:14:17 AM
Come on, no one else is amused by her last name? Loki? The Norse god of mischief, the trickster?

But in all seriousness, someone with opinions like hers (i.e., chasidic jews were exterminated because they were loud and proud about their identity) isn't making a movie like this simply to tell the story of individuals leaving the fold. That would be like me producing a movie about Nazis who defected, and saying it was just about those individuals, and not about the evil system they were rebelling from.

Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Aaaron on October 25, 2017, 09:40:46 AM
Come on, no one else is amused by her last name? Loki? The Norse god of mischief, the trickster?

But in all seriousness, someone with opinions like hers (i.e., chasidic jews were exterminated because they were loud and proud about their identity) isn't making a movie like this simply to tell the story of individuals leaving the fold. That would be like me producing a movie about Nazis who defected, and saying it was just about those individuals, and not about the evil system they were rebelling from.

Does her purpose in making this movie detract from any of the points the movie focuses on?  Was anything skewed?  False?  Disingenuous? 
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 25, 2017, 09:41:38 AM
Does her purpose in making this movie detract from any of the points the movie focuses on?  Was anything skewed?  False?  Disingenuous?
+1
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 25, 2017, 09:44:52 AM
Does her purpose in making this movie detract from any of the points the movie focuses on?  Was anything skewed?  False?  Disingenuous?
How could it not be?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 25, 2017, 09:49:35 AM
Obviously everything can be presented in a biased way.
Meanwhile, like I stated before I don't really think the film was so informative one way or another.

I'd love to hear feedback from someone outside of the community who doesn't really know of what goes on and see what they walked away with. 


Wasn't much substance in the film.

Almost seemed like the trailer to the actual film.


Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 25, 2017, 10:01:33 AM
How about an unbiased opinion?  :)
Anyone have a link? Do I need NF?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: CS1 on October 25, 2017, 10:21:30 AM
How about an unbiased opinion? :)
Anyone have a link? Do I need NF?

asking for an unbiased opinion is similar to asking for an unbiased opinion on the Rodney King or Treyvon Martin deaths, cases, causes, and trial results. Different people will have a different perspective. As in DDF language, "YMMV".
Title: Re: Re: Interesting Articles...
Post by: koplonko on October 25, 2017, 11:43:29 AM
How about an unbiased opinion?  :)
Anyone have a link? Do I need NF?

Don't know how to make that happen, but if you really want to watch it pm me and I'll get you access.
There's a lot to say about the movie, a lot more than just pro or against torah. I'm still processing and don't have a fully formulated judgment.
Though I will say its heart wrenching and painful, on several fronts.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sguitarist18 on October 25, 2017, 03:01:21 PM
How could it not be?

+1

Is there any doubt that if I made a movie about nazis that it would be biased and skewed? Watch the video of her talking about the extermination of chasidim, how she looks amused about how it was because they were so "loud and proud."
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Aaaron on October 25, 2017, 07:51:33 PM
How could it not be?

+1

Is there any doubt that if I made a movie about nazis that it would be biased and skewed? Watch the video of her talking about the extermination of chasidim, how she looks amused about how it was because they were so "loud and proud."

So if you're both claiming her biases made her skew facts or details, please provide examples. 
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: aygart on October 25, 2017, 07:54:09 PM
So if you're both claiming her biases made her skew facts or details, please provide examples.
There is no real way of know for certain one way or the other, but considering the stupidity of her holocaust comment her interpretation of things is very suspect.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 26, 2017, 04:27:35 AM
I agree with a lot that is said about Chasidim but I feel like the film messed up the message entirely.

Mother changes her life and WILL change the kids life regardless of her promises, she should lose the kids I dont feel sorry for that. The kids that went off the D, were not ostracized by their family, in fact the father was there for him when he had issues. The backgrounds of the scenes always show kids laughing/happy mothers look busy but not overwhelmed. I see this as a terrible hit job on Chasidim.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 26, 2017, 07:58:32 AM
I agree with a lot that is said about Chasidim but I feel like the film messed up the message entirely.

Mother changes her life and WILL change the kids life regardless of her promises, she should lose the kids I dont feel sorry for that. The kids that went off the D, were not ostracized by their family, in fact the father was there for him when he had issues. The backgrounds of the scenes always show kids laughing/happy mothers look busy but not overwhelmed. I see this as a terrible hit job on Chasidim.
Just out of curiosity, do you outright believe a father or mother who become not religious deserve to lose their relationship with their children?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 26, 2017, 08:29:54 AM
Just out of curiosity, do you outright believe a father or mother who become not religious deserve to lose their relationship with their children?

I think it is heartbreaking!! But at the end of the day they make a pact when they decide to have kids that this is the way they will be raised. If one of the parents decides to change then they lose out. If it is both parents then it becomes murkier.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Sport on October 26, 2017, 08:30:52 AM
Just out of curiosity, do you outright believe a father or mother who become not religious deserve to lose their relationship with their children?
And even if you do, you can still feel their pain, they're not mutually exclusive.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 26, 2017, 08:33:30 AM
I think it is heartbreaking!! But at the end of the day they make a pact when they decide to have kids that this is the way they will be raised. If one of the parents decides to change then they lose out. If it is both parents then it becomes murkier.
We're talking about human beings here. It seems so crazy to me that you can think in such black and white terms.



Obviously ideally there is respect and compromise to whatever extent but that goes both ways.

As long as a parent is loving, safe and stable there shouldn't be any black and white decisions that that parents loses the right to their children IMHO.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: elit on October 26, 2017, 08:34:32 AM
I think it is heartbreaking!! But at the end of the day they make a pact when they decide to have kids that this is the way they will be raised. If one of the parents decides to change then they lose out. If it is both parents then it becomes murkier.
huh? what does your last line mean?
and of the father's actually abusive you still thunk they are better off with him
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 26, 2017, 08:40:08 AM
We're talking about human beings here. It seems so crazy to me that you can think in such black and white terms.



Obviously ideally there is respect and compromise to whatever extent but that goes both ways.

As long as a parent is loving, safe and stable there shouldn't be any black and white decisions that that parents loses the right to their children IMHO.

How is it a stable life to see your mother eating cheeseburgers and your father learning gemara?? I dont understand what you think is stable?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 26, 2017, 08:42:04 AM
huh? what does your last line mean?
and of the father's actually abusive you still thunk they are better off with him

I did not say that! I do not believe every lady who went off the derech is because of abusive husbands, if the husband was abusive then he should lose the kids as well.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Aaaron on October 26, 2017, 08:43:44 AM
I agree with a lot that is said about Chasidim but I feel like the film messed up the message entirely.

Mother changes her life and WILL change the kids life regardless of her promises, she should lose the kids I dont feel sorry for that. The kids that went off the D, were not ostracized by their family, in fact the father was there for him when he had issues. The backgrounds of the scenes always show kids laughing/happy mothers look busy but not overwhelmed. I see this as a terrible hit job on Chasidim.

You just said it always showed happy children and mothers, and showed a supportive father to the OTD kid, so how exactly is it a hit job on Chasidim?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: elit on October 26, 2017, 08:43:58 AM
I did not say that! I do not believe every lady who went off the derech is because of abusive husbands, if the husband was abusive then he should lose the kids as well.
well that was the scenario being discussed
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Sport on October 26, 2017, 08:44:34 AM
I think it is heartbreaking!! But at the end of the day they make a pact when they decide to have kids that this is the way they will be raised. If one of the parents decides to change then they lose out. If it is both parents then it becomes murkier.
Would you say that in the reverse case? Say a completely secular family is going through a divorce and one of the spouses is a bal teshuvah now and becoming chasidish. Should the, now chasidish, spouse lose his/her right to any custody of the children because they'll raise the kids  differently.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 26, 2017, 08:46:17 AM
How is it a stable life to see your mother eating cheeseburgers and your father learning gemara?? I dont understand what you think is stable?
Listen, a kid from a divorced house is going to have some things to deal with even in the best of scenerios. 
That's his pekelah.

And ideally a parent who changes his/her path still has the child's best interest at heart and plenty of times that means respecting how they were raised until a certain point. 

Compromise should always be part of the picture. On both sides.  And it won't be perfect no matter what.
But there is still something to be said for a child having a relationship with their mother/father.

You can't write off a parent just because they change their path.

It's not that I don't understand how complicated it can be. And I get not wanting to expose a kid to things but sometimes thats what life throws at you.

You shouldn't lose a child just because you change your path.

If that means becoming not religious. 

Or becoming religious. 


Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 26, 2017, 09:10:08 AM
Would you say that in the reverse case? Say a completely secular family is going through a divorce and one of the spouses is a bal teshuvah now and becoming chasidish. Should the, now chasidish, spouse lose his/her right to any custody of the children because they'll raise the kids  differently.

Yes I would....I am saying clearly when parents decide to get married and have kids they decided on how they will raise them. If someone changes and it is 100% against the principles they agreed to then yes that parent must go.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 26, 2017, 09:12:41 AM
Listen, a kid from a divorced house is going to have some things to deal with even in the best of scenerios. 
That's his pekelah.

And ideally a parent who changes his/her path still has the child's best interest at heart and plenty of times that means respecting how they were raised until a certain point. 

Compromise should always be part of the picture. On both sides.  And it won't be perfect no matter what.
But there is still something to be said for a child having a relationship with their mother/father.

You can't write off a parent just because they change their path.

It's not that I don't understand how complicated it can be. And I get not wanting to expose a kid to things but sometimes thats what life throws at you.

You shouldn't lose a child just because you change your path.

If that means becoming not religious. 

Or becoming religious.

I feel the lack of security to kids is more damaging then not having one of the parents around. A parents death R"L is less damaging to a kids future then seeing 2 completely different ways of life. How is the kid ever supposed to know whats right in life if each step is being taught differently?

I think the mother should have full visitation rights however she may not discuss religion and she must dress appropriately!
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 26, 2017, 09:40:38 AM
I think the mother should have full visitation rights however she may not discuss religion and she must dress appropriately!
::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: elit on October 26, 2017, 10:24:51 AM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-we-turned-down-netflix/
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 26, 2017, 10:37:10 AM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/why-we-turned-down-netflix/
Nice!
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Aaaron on October 26, 2017, 11:04:24 AM
I feel the lack of security to kids is more damaging then not having one of the parents around. A parents death R"L is less damaging to a kids future then seeing 2 completely different ways of life. How is the kid ever supposed to know whats right in life if each step is being taught differently?

I think the mother should have full visitation rights however she may not discuss religion and she must dress appropriately!

Do you have any psychological data to back this up?  From what I understand, most court systems and jurisdictions disagree based on years of expert testimony.  The exception is where judges have to be worried about a block vote. 
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 26, 2017, 12:47:37 PM
Watched the first 45 minutes. When does the bashing start?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 26, 2017, 03:25:43 PM
Just had a chance to finish watching. Were is this bashing some here are talking about? The only bashing was taking her kids from her. Was this a Jewish court system that did this?

I have no idea if the three stories are true or slanted. The way they portrayed the community is accurate based on what I learned from this forum. Overall the community was portrayed in a strict but positive way.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 27, 2017, 12:58:48 AM
Just had a chance to finish watching. Were is this bashing some here are talking about? The only bashing was taking her kids from her. Was this a Jewish court system that did this?

I have no idea if the three stories are true or slanted. The way they portrayed the community is accurate based on what I learned from this forum. Overall the community was portrayed in a strict but positive way.

+1000
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Proisrael on October 27, 2017, 01:00:09 AM
Do you have any psychological data to back this up?  From what I understand, most court systems and jurisdictions disagree based on years of expert testimony.  The exception is where judges have to be worried about a block vote.

Where are the court cases of one parent religious and the other completely not? Most court cases would be with parents who argue with each other or who dont see eye to eye. Here is a completely different case.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 27, 2017, 09:56:37 AM
OK it is Friday so lets not be shy.  :)
Who heard her court case?
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: Sport on October 27, 2017, 10:23:14 AM
Very nice op-ed.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/we-are-all-one-of-us/
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 27, 2017, 11:16:35 AM
Very nice op-ed.
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/we-are-all-one-of-us/
This was brought out in the movie:
"If we look even deeper, past the black hats and long coats, maybe you will also see the beauty that I have come to see. The beauty of charity and helping those in need at whatever cost. The beauty of a tight-knit loving family. The beauty of taking care of your own. The beauty of shutting off the world for one day a week, and focusing on all that is important Shabbat. The beauty of living a life of higher meaning and purpose."
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: sky121 on October 27, 2017, 11:59:21 AM
I didn't think the film showed too much of the good nor did I think it showed too much of the bad.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 27, 2017, 12:10:27 PM
I didn't think the film showed too much of the good nor did I think it showed too much of the bad.
True but right at the beginning it talk how helpful the community was to one of its own. 90+% was about the three individuals struggles.
Title: Re: "One Of Us"
Post by: good sam on January 11, 2018, 12:44:36 PM
https://www.kickstarter.com/projects/1826661641/tzadeikis-holy-woman-a-short-film-by-emily-cheeger