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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: shlonx on December 30, 2017, 08:44:03 PM

Title: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 30, 2017, 08:44:03 PM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/who-needs-rabbinic-leadership-a-call-for-orthodox-organizations-to-heed-the-voices-of-the-women-they-cannot-see/
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 08:59:22 PM
Voted.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yoohoo on December 30, 2017, 09:13:18 PM
Too general. As in advertisement material? I would say yes but with very strict guidelines
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 09:15:22 PM
Who's the 4 sexist so far in the poll?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 30, 2017, 09:17:02 PM
Too general. As in advertisement material? I would say yes but with very strict guidelines

How about a profile picture of an interveiwee?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 30, 2017, 09:48:37 PM
Who's the 4 sexist so far in the poll?
Voted.

Why are you assuming anyone is sexist? Why name calling?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on December 30, 2017, 09:56:34 PM
Anything we want to change we need to answer these questions
Are we saying we were wrong up until now?
Did the halacha change or was it only chasidus? What would it not apply anymore.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 09:56:55 PM
Why are you assuming anyone is sexist?
You do have a point. If they didn't allow blacks I guess that isn't racist.  ::)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:10:48 PM
The big issue will be that there is no way these publications could make anyone happy with defining tznius.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on December 30, 2017, 11:13:01 PM
The big issue will be that there is no way these publications could make anyone happy with defining tznius.
Why not?
Speak to appropriate LORs and make a known guideline.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 11:13:17 PM
The big issue will be that there is no way these publications could make anyone happy with defining tznius.
So that is why they don't have pictures of girls/women?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:15:23 PM
Why not?
Speak to appropriate LORs and make a known guideline.
Much of tznius is subjective. Anyone who thinks it is a bunch of lines missed the boat.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:17:21 PM
So that is why they don't have pictures of girls/women?
It is definitely the easy way out to avoid having a big advertiser submit an ad which may be suggestive even with all lines kept to and have to deal with explaining to the advertiser why the ad they spent money on making doesn't meet the standards.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on December 30, 2017, 11:18:53 PM
It is definitely the easy way out to avoid having a big advertiser submit an ad which may be suggestive even with all lines kept to and have to deal with explaining to the advertiser why the ad they spent money on making doesn't meet the standards.
Sounds better than this:
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 11:20:24 PM
It is definitely the easy way out to avoid having a big advertiser submit an ad which may be suggestive even with all lines kept to and have to deal with explaining to the advertiser why the ad they spent money on making doesn't meet the standards.
I understand it is an easy way out but I am asking is that the real reason they have no pictures of girls/women.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:20:35 PM
Sounds better than this:

That is definitely overboard but is also an extreme lack of creativity on the designer's part.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 30, 2017, 11:22:45 PM
The big issue will be that there is no way these publications could make anyone happy with defining tznius.
Indeed, though some of the examples in the article are beyond ridiculous (women's shopping spree for example).

Much of tznius is subjective. Anyone who thinks it is a bunch of lines missed the boat.

The hardest thing is to get people to understand and realize that. Especially in today's day and age, where people are looking for brief, instant answers, rather than actually immersing oneself in the topic and understand it in a way that one actually gets their own sense of tznius.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:26:59 PM
I understand it is an easy way out but I am asking is that the real reason they have no pictures of girls/women.
Some of the more chassidish it is ideological. That has at this point spilled over into other communities as well. I think some is not having the backbone or the interest in standing up to those who go overboard but some is also to avoid what would become constant haggling over standards.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:28:55 PM
Indeed, though some of the examples in the article are beyond ridiculous (women's shopping spree for example).
That was likely more of a bad attempt at humor than anything else. They could have easily had a picture without the men there which would have looked fine.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 11:29:40 PM
Some of the more chassidish it is ideological. That has at this point spilled over into other communities as well. I think some is not having the backbone or the interest in standing up to those who go overboard but some is also to avoid what would become constant haggling over standards.
How do you think this effects boys views of girls/women with never seeing them in publications?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:31:37 PM
How do you think this effects boys views of girls/women with never seeing them in publications?
Dunno. How do you think it would?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 11:34:40 PM
Dunno. How do you think it would?
It cant be a good thing.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:38:20 PM
It cant be a good thing.
why not?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 11:40:59 PM
why not?
Think hard and you might figure it out.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: hvaces42 on December 30, 2017, 11:47:15 PM
I understand it is an easy way out but I am asking is that the real reason they have no pictures of girls/women.
Because men cant be trusted to look at women and not get "thoughts".
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 30, 2017, 11:49:27 PM
How do you think this effects boys views of girls/women with never seeing them in publications?
Many of us here grew up that way. Never had a negative effect. I had sisters, mother, aunts, relatives, neighbors etc. & not showing them in publications did not make me respect them any less.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 30, 2017, 11:53:29 PM
Sounds better than this:

That was an ad in a local Monsey circular. I also thought it looked a bit weird, but it was in a frum, chassidish publication, so I understood, sort of. But why is the author of the article going around and canvassing the globe for such examples? Can't she understand that some communities are more frum than the others, and have their own guidelines?

Why not?
Speak to appropriate LORs and make a known guideline.

Mishpacha and Ami cater to a very wide spectrum of people, from Mizrachi to Satmar. Who should their Rabbis be?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on December 30, 2017, 11:55:00 PM
Do they not seek guidance when discussing any topics or when questions arise? Who do they turn to?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 30, 2017, 11:55:42 PM
Many of us here grew up that way. Never had a negative effect. I had sisters, mother, aunts, relatives, neighbors etc. & not showing them in publications did not make me respect them any less.
Does girls growing up playing with Barbie dolls instead of erector sets make them less likely to grow up wanting to be engineers? There are unintended consequence to everything thing we do. If you think this doesn't affect girls and boys you are fooling yourself.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 30, 2017, 11:56:27 PM
Mishpacha and Ami cater to a very wide spectrum of people, from Mizrachi to Satmar. Who should their Rabbis be?
And don't answer that they should speak to their own because that can preclude them from selling to certain communities with different standards.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mordechain on December 30, 2017, 11:57:17 PM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/who-needs-rabbinic-leadership-a-call-for-orthodox-organizations-to-heed-the-voices-of-the-women-they-cannot-see/
Funny...to think that the earnest author thinks that RCA and OU are daas Torah...for the "heimishe oilam"
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 30, 2017, 11:59:17 PM
Does girls growing up playing with Barbie dolls instead of erector sets make them less likely to grow up wanting to be engineers? There are unintended consequence to everything thing we do. If you think this doesn't affect girls and boys you are fooling yourself.
english please
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:00:49 AM
english please
What part don't you understand and we can take it one step at a time?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 12:03:50 AM
What part don't you understand and we can take it one step at a time?
I tried and you just told me to
Think hard and you might figure it out.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:05:04 AM
What part don't you understand and we can take it one step at a time?
Are you saying that I respect women any less because they weren’t all over my reading material ?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 12:07:55 AM
Are you saying that I respect women any less because they were banned from my reading material?
FTFY
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:08:52 AM
Are you saying that I respect women any less because they weren’t all over my reading material ?
I am saying it will effect how you view them. What about school books? Are they stricken from them also?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:10:11 AM
I am saying it will effect how you view them.
BS.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:12:39 AM
BS.
I guess you believe less is more.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 12:13:55 AM
I am saying it will effect how you view them. What about school books? Are they stricken from them also?
How about the way women are depicted in secular publications such as the ads in the NYT? How does that affect how people will view women? Is that better or worse?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:16:03 AM
I guess you believe less is more.
Are women treated with more respect in circles where they’re in the publications ?
Ask the metoo movement how it’s working out
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:17:27 AM
How about the way women are depicted in secular publications such as the ads in the NYT? How does that affect how people will view women? Is that better or worse?
Thanks for making my point for me. Some might say it is better or worse but most will agree it has an affect especially at a younger age.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 12:17:42 AM
Many of us here grew up that way. Never had a negative effect. I had sisters, mother, aunts, relatives, neighbors etc. & not showing them in publications did not make me respect them any less.

Which is exactly why I asked


Why are you assuming anyone is sexist? Why name calling?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:19:15 AM
Ask the metoo movement how it’s working out
...and of course this doesn't happen in religious circles.  ::)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:20:58 AM
...and of course this doesn't happen in religious circles.  ::)
Been happening far worse elsewhere. Which just proves my point that it had no effect.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:23:43 AM
Been happening far worse elsewhere.
Are you sure it is far worse? One of the worse child abuse scandals we had involved religion.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:25:27 AM
Are you sure it is far worse? One of the worse child abuse scandals we had involved religion.
I didn’t realize this thread was about child abuse. My apologies
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:31:36 AM
I didn’t realize this thread was about child abuse. My apologies
You brought in the meto movement.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:34:04 AM
You brought in the meto movement.
Yes. Where women are letting the world know how they’ve been treated.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:36:54 AM
Yes. Where women are letting the world know how they’ve been treated.
Wasn't the real problem the power the men had over the women? Are you trying to prove my point for me?  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 12:41:01 AM
Quote
sex·ist
adjective
adjective: sexist
1. relating to or characterized by prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Why might anyone (who isn't himself prejudiced) rush to conclude that not allowing pictures of women in publications is done because of "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination"?

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:41:28 AM
Wasn't the real problem the power the men had over the women? Are you trying to prove my point for me?  :)
No. just proves my point that having photos of women doesn’t cause men to respect women any more than not showing photos. If one is a gentleman he’ll respect them regardless.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:46:55 AM
No. just proves my point that having photos of women doesn’t cause men to respect women any more than not showing photos. If one is a gentleman he’ll respect them regardless.
1 - You disagreeing the real problem is men having power over women (meto scandal)?
2 - I said it will affect you. You for some reason keep bringing up respect. Some might think it is a guilt complex.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 12:47:13 AM
Are you sure it is far worse? One of the worse child abuse scandals we had involved religion.
They did not have the women removed from their publications. We are not discussing religion in general but rather this specific policy. Why are you bringing in a case where they did not have this policy?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:48:33 AM
Why might anyone (who isn't himself prejudiced) rush to conclude that not allowing pictures of women in publications is done because of "prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination"?
Probably some saying about a duck.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yhaller14 on December 31, 2017, 12:49:16 AM
Does girls growing up playing with Barbie dolls instead of erector sets make them less likely to grow up wanting to be engineers? There are unintended consequence to everything thing we do. If you think this doesn't affect girls and boys you are fooling yourself.
Who says anyone wants their daughters to be engineers?!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 12:51:34 AM
Probably some saying about a duck.
Or some major cultural differences. (unless it's just plain old prejudice towards people that see things differently).
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 12:52:38 AM
Probably some saying about a duck.
Unless the ugly duckling is a beautiful swan.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:56:16 AM
Who says anyone wants their daughters to be engineers?!
That's another problem. Taking the choice away from our daughters.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 12:56:59 AM
1 - You disagreeing the real problem is men having power over women (meto scandal)?
2 - I said it will affect you. You for some reason keep bringing up respect. Some might think it is a guilt complex.
When I mention respect I’m referring to this
boys views of girls/women
Is there a different “view” I’m not aware of ? Please do tell :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 12:58:34 AM
That's another problem. Taking the choice away from our daughters.
By giving them dolls over erector sets?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 12:58:51 AM
Or some major cultural differences. (unless it's just plain old prejudice towards people that see things differently).
Couldn't that be said about slavery or even (not Friday so I cant say)?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on December 31, 2017, 12:59:33 AM
Do they not seek guidance when discussing any topics or when questions arise? Who do they turn to?

They seek guidance but definitely also take into account what will get them banned in more closed circles.
Now there are families that won't buy Mishpach because of some of its contents, but my guess is the same contents gets them more readers on the other end of the spectrum.

Puting pictures of woman may have a bigger/wider negative effect than the gains financially.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:00:07 AM
By giving them dolls over erector sets?
Now you are starting to understand.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 01:03:17 AM
Now you are starting to understand.
Its the “open”minded people that are trying to force boys to play with dolls.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:04:17 AM
Its the “open”minded people that are trying to force boys to play with dolls.
Force?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 01:05:01 AM
Now you are starting to understand.
nope.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 01:05:21 AM
Force?
As in that’s all the kids get
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 01:07:12 AM
Force?
Most of the homes which would have these publications have children of both genders and therefore toys catering to both genders.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:07:33 AM
As in that’s all the kids get
That's a new one to me.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:08:12 AM
nope.
You just don't realize it.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 01:08:56 AM
You just don't realize it.
Now you are starting to sound like @ExGingi
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:12:29 AM
Now you are starting to sound like @ExGingi
Ouch, he's not going to like that.  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 01:13:24 AM
Ouch, he's not going to like that.  :)
Do you ?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 01:13:50 AM
Ouch, he's not going to like that.  :)
He knows what I am referring to and understands the tongue in cheek
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:24:22 AM
Do you ?
Doesn't matter.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 08:29:37 AM
Back in the day things weren't like this.  Plenty of Jewish newspapers and magazines had pictures of men and women and I think it was perfectly fine.

I honestly think this is a situation where we are kidding ourselves into thinking it's better and more machmir to have a little girl be blotted out than realizing that this is a form of extremism that has little to do with yiddeshkeit at this point. 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 08:39:10 AM
Back in the day things weren't like this.  Plenty of Jewish newspapers and magazines had pictures of men and women and I think it was perfectly fine.

I honestly think this is a situation where we are kidding ourselves into thinking it's better and more machmir to have a little girl be blotted out than realizing that this is a form of extremism that has little to do with yiddeshkeit at this point. 

It's not so much about being machmir. But unfortunately we are in a situation of אכשר דרא - בתמיהה, were sensitivities that were once well ingrained, need to be explained, and are lost to lines and standards.

As my dear friend @aygart accurately stated:

Much of tznius is subjective. Anyone who thinks it is a bunch of lines missed the boat.

Some of the more chassidish it is ideological. That has at this point spilled over into other communities as well. I think some is not having the backbone or the interest in standing up to those who go overboard but some is also to avoid what would become constant haggling over standards.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 08:42:55 AM
It's not so much about being machmir. But unfortunately we are in a situation of אכשר דרא - בתמיהה, were sensitivities that were once well ingrained, need to be explained, and are lost to lines and standards.

As my dear friend @aygart accurately stated:
Those aren't good excuses. You can't pull all the way to one side to avoid having discussion and differences in the middle.
  And half the issue is people actually believing these standards are 'correct' and anything different is 'wrong'. 

If most people adhereing to these standards were at least honest that they're doing them to avoid debating over specifics we'd already be a lot better off.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 08:43:25 AM
Back in the day things weren't like this. 
Back in which day ? As far back as I can remember the papers which didn’t have it then still don’t have it and the ones which did still have it.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yelped on December 31, 2017, 08:44:38 AM
Back in which day ? As far back as I can remember the papers which didn’t have it then still don’t have it and the ones which did still have it.
The official Agudah paper had pictures in the 50s, as well as many others.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 08:45:35 AM
Back in which day ? As far back as I can remember the papers which didn’t have it then still don’t have it and the ones which did still have it.
I honestly don't know names. I'm sure some never did. And I know some still do. But in general things were a lot more middle of the road and 'normal'. Even when I look through old papers and magazines in my grandparents basement all I notice is how normal it seemed to show both sexes of modern and more to the right people in various settings where you rarely see those pictures today. 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 08:52:35 AM
I honestly don't know names. I'm sure some never did. And I know some still do. But in general things were a lot more middle of the road and 'normal'. Even when I look through old papers and magazines in my grandparents basement all I notice is how normal it seemed to show both sexes of modern and more to the right people in various settings where you rarely see those pictures today.
I know exactly which time you’re referring to & I wouldn’t call that time “Middle of the road”. Was after the war & yiddishkeit here was at a very low point. I’ve also seen the old pictures. Women went sleeveless, uncovered hair, mixed dancing at simchas, and on & on. If you like that style better that’s your choice but that’s not “normal, middle of the road”.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: a mirrer on December 31, 2017, 08:53:04 AM
Back in the day things weren't like this.  Plenty of Jewish newspapers and magazines had pictures of men and women and I think it was perfectly fine.

I honestly think this is a situation where we are kidding ourselves into thinking it's better and more machmir to have a little girl be blotted out than realizing that this is a form of extremism that has little to do with yiddeshkeit at this point.
back in the day the NCSY had social dancing, so don't bring points from what was acceptable in the US 60 years ago when the religious community was a lot more modern than it is today because if ״back in the day״ is fair play then show me one chareidi periodical from Poland before WW1 that had pictures of women in it
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 08:57:01 AM
I know exactly which time you’re referring to & I wouldn’t call that time “Middle of the road”. Was after the war & yiddishkeit here was at a very low point. I’ve also seen the old pictures. Women went sleeveless, uncovered hair, mixed dancing at simchas, and on & on. If you like that style better that’s your choice but that’s not “normal, middle of the road”.

Most of the things I've seen were from the 60's and 70's.  No one was sleeveless, they didn't have mixed dancing, their hair was covered.

Just saying.  And yes as a whole our communities have gotten "stricter" about a lot of things.


I guess the question is how do you decide when to stop going that way?


Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 08:57:42 AM
back in the day the NCSY had social dancing, so don't bring points from what was acceptable in the US 60 years ago when the religious community was a lot more modern than it is today because if ״back in the day״ is fair play then show me one chareidi periodical from Poland before WW1 that had pictures of women in it

NCSY still has things today that someone like you seemingly wouldn't agree with. I don't know what that has to do with anything.   But fine, let's not use the back in the day points. Because back in the day women also stayed at home and raised their kids and men were out working so they could afford to live and those times have also changed.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on December 31, 2017, 09:00:07 AM
I guess the question is how do you decide when to stop going that way?
When our wives all have bald heads and burkas ;)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:00:19 AM
Most of the things I've seen were from the 60's and 70's.  No one was sleeveless, they didn't have mixed dancing, their hair was covered.

Just saying.  And yes as a whole our communities have gotten "stricter" about a lot of things.


I guess the question is how do you decide when to stop going that way?
The papers showing women in the 70’s still show them today
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:08:05 AM
I recently had this sort of  discussion with some Chassidish relatives of mine in Israel.  They were discussing about sending one of the kids to Gan next year (she's 2 at the moment) and which to send her to and they said well if you go with X at least she won't have to wear tights yet.


This led to a whole discussion of how 3 year old chassidish girls are required to wear tights and 15-20 years ago (so we're not talking the 60s here-but like 1999)  where it was still totally accepted to wear little socks and even short sleeves. And this was in the most religious parts of Bnei Brak.

These little things that "we let" change... these things we think that are "not really a big deal" end up really causing problems. And more division and aren't making us any frummer or helping our yiddeshkeit grow IMHO.

Slowly lettings these type of things change that one doesn't necessarily believe need changing is slightly dangerous IMO.

Obviously there are plenty of people reading this who think no girl SHOULD walking around in anything but tights and no women should ever be seen in a magazine because that is 'better', frummer? and those people clearly just disagree outright anyways with any of these type of thoughts.

My opinions aren't for them.

It's for those in the middle.  Like we mentioned above. Who let these things go or be because it's easier not to fight or discuss.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:13:20 AM
We can discuss anything & everything (in fact we do), but most, if not all, of these magazines have rabbonim guiding them.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:14:59 AM
...of these magazines have rabbonim guiding them.
Am I correct it is all men?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:16:14 AM
“We” can discuss anything & everything (in fact we do), but most, if not all, of these magazines have rabbonim guiding them.

Do you know how many times I've heard well respected Rabbonim tell me they think X Y and Z but they can't say things because they can't make trouble? OR what will people think? etc. etc.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:17:06 AM
Am I correct it is all men?
The same men who might’ve allowed it back then
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:17:31 AM
Do you know how many times I've heard well respected Rabbonim tell me they think X Y and Z but they can't say things because they can't make trouble? OR what will people think? etc. etc.
Then it’s time for them to retire
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:18:26 AM
Then it’s time for them to retire

You'd have a lot of Rabbeim retiring if that happened :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 09:19:07 AM
That's another problem. Taking the choice away from our daughters.

https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/infants-prefer-toys-typed-to-their-gender,-says-study
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:21:05 AM
You'd have a lot of Rabbeim retiring if that happened :)
Hey, it’s his job to speak up if he feels people are ignoring halachas.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:26:49 AM
Those aren't good excuses. You can't pull all the way to one side to avoid having discussion and differences in the middle.
  And half the issue is people actually believing these standards are 'correct' and anything different is 'wrong'. 

If most people adhereing to these standards were at least honest that they're doing them to avoid debating over specifics we'd already be a lot better off.
Dude, these are businesses.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:27:10 AM
Hey, it’s his job to speak up if he feels people are ignoring halachas.

It's usually the opposite idea. People being too machmir. Things we do that aren't necessary. Things in the community that are becoming must dos, must haves, etc.

   Again, my comments are for those who don't really believe we need to erase women from magazines but just go with the flow.

I'm not one who likes to speak up or "make trouble" as I generally try to live peacefully in my little corner of the world and do my thing but I am starting to believe it is dangerous to let things like this that seemingly appear to be no big deal to "let be". 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:27:50 AM
https://www.city.ac.uk/news/2016/july/infants-prefer-toys-typed-to-their-gender,-says-study
WOW that is a groundbreaking study. I guess the type of toys they have at home had nothing to do with it.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:28:35 AM
Dude, these are businesses.

We are not businesses.  We're the consumers. We decide who is buying or not.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:30:40 AM
We are not businesses.  We're the consumers. We decide who is buying or not.
There are magazines who do show & we're all free to buy those if we choose to.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:31:12 AM
Most of the things I've seen were from the 60's and 70's.  No one was sleeveless, they didn't have mixed dancing, their hair was covered.

Just saying.  And yes as a whole our communities have gotten "stricter" about a lot of things.


I guess the question is how do you decide when to stop going that way?
My uncle owned what was considered at that time to be the most frum hotel around and all the gedolim are there etc. At the advice of R Moshe they had two swimming pools so that purple should have the option of separate swimming while the other was mixed. R Moshe told him that is not the fight we are fighting now but separate should at least be available. My father and his cousins were about the only ones to use it.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:32:47 AM
The same men who might’ve allowed it back then
So yes is your answer.
So you have men in power making decisions for women all the time. You don't see how this could be a problem?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Boruch999 on December 31, 2017, 09:33:12 AM
WOW that is a groundbreaking study. I guess the type of toys they have at home had nothing to do with it.

and women have babies because they are conditioned to at home.  Those poor boys, had their choice of having babies taken away from them by religiously influenced cultural conditioning.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 09:33:34 AM
WOW that is a groundbreaking study. I guess the type of toys they have at home had nothing to do with it.

Dude, it's a study. It would be useless if there were no controls.
Here's another article you can ignore because the truth is not what you seek-
https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/homo-consumericus/201212/sex-specific-toy-preferences-learned-or-innate
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:33:38 AM
There are magazines who do show & we're all free to buy those if we choose to.
True. That's my usual approach.
But not speaking up causes other magazines to feel pressured to follow suit.


Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 09:34:21 AM
We are not businesses.  We're the consumers. We decide who is buying or not.

So don't buy anything that censors women. What's your point?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:34:50 AM
True. That's my usual approach.
But not speaking up causes other magazines to feel pressured to follow suit.
That is capitalism
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:35:25 AM
So yes is your answer.
So you have men in power making decisions for women all the time. You don't see how this could be a problem?
No. that’s how it’s always been. Even back in the 50’s 60’s & 70’s.
(If women were making these decisions it would be far more extreme. I’m not expecting you to understand this)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:35:40 AM
We are not businesses.  We're the consumers. We decide who is buying or not.
So decide, but ago with the idiocy that they are making ideological decisions on this.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:37:34 AM
Again I have issue with this whole idea in general of lettings various topics and standards be pulled to the right because it's easier than speaking up.

With this specific topic if you argue no men should ever see a women or girl in a magazine than I have little to say to that.

But saying it's no big deal for women or girls to not see themselves represented in those pages is just not true.
And I'd venture to guess most Jewish women who are subtly taught to keep quiet so they probably haven't even let themselves honestly think about what it makes them feel or if they would benefit from seeing themselves in those pages.

Those negative effects may be subtle, or not spoken about but there is no doubt in my mind they are there. And I have no doubt there would be benefits to not seeing themselves erased, blotted out, or colored on in those pages.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:38:01 AM
True. That's my usual approach.
But not speaking up causes other magazines to feel pressured to follow suit.
Again, nobody is feeling pressured. They pick a rabbinical board (probably based on the viewership they’re targeting) & they follow their guidance.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:38:06 AM
It would be useless if there were no controls.
Bingo!!!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 09:38:48 AM
So don't buy anything that censors women. What's your point?

As a community the standards we go with pressure those around to follow. That's just the way it is. If tomorrow a bunch of schools only let their kids wear black shirts eventually others would follow suit.

It's an issue. A pressure that shouldn't exist but does.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: elit on December 31, 2017, 09:38:52 AM
It's not so much about being machmir. But unfortunately we are in a situation of אכשר דרא - בתמיהה, were sensitivities that were once well ingrained, need to be explained, and are lost to lines and standards.

As my dear friend @aygart accurately stated:
that's a cop out
Dude, these are businesses.
that's the problem
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:39:54 AM
that's a cop outthat's the problem
What is the problem with a publication being a business?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:40:49 AM
that's a cop outthat's the problem
Start your own nonprofit ::)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 09:40:53 AM
Bingo!!!

So you read the study and saw that there was no controls?
Liar.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:41:42 AM
(If women were making these decisions it would be far more extreme. I’m not expecting you to understand this)
Far more extreme? Maybe we should look at decisions made by powerful women over the years. Lets see if there is a pattern of being extreme.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: elit on December 31, 2017, 09:43:39 AM
What is the problem with a publication being a business?
nothing but that don't pretend to be an source of or influence hashkafa and halacha
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:44:56 AM
Far more extreme? Maybe we should look at decisions made by powerful women over the years. Lets see if there is a pattern of being extreme.
Yes. Based on letters to the editor. Based on decisions in my daughters schools made by women. (Again I don’t expect you to understand what I said)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:45:12 AM
nothing but that don't pretend to be an source of or influence hashkafa and halacha
You are the only one here pretending that Ami is that.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:46:03 AM
So you read the study and saw that there was no controls?
Liar.
Instead of name calling how about pointing out the controls mentioned in the article I missed?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:46:25 AM
Yes. Based on letters to the editor. Based on decisions in my daughters schools made by women.
+1 some of the most extreme decisions about this topic specifically have been made by women.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 09:47:14 AM
Instead of name calling how about pointing out the controls mentioned in the article I missed?

The controls weren't mentioned in the article, because an article is not a study.
The study is linked but you didn't read it.

PUOSU
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: @Yehuda on December 31, 2017, 09:47:55 AM
From the way the poll is worded, it's clear how the OP leans.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:49:54 AM
Yes. Based on letters to the editor. Based on decisions in my daughters schools made by women.
If you keep proving my points I won't have anything to do. So in your environment women make extreme decisions? I wonder why that is?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:50:56 AM
The controls weren't mentioned in the article, because an article is not a study.
The study is linked but you didn't read it.

PUOSU
Actually you need to PUOSH. You claimed there was controls so link to them.
You also called me a liar. Be a man and now apologize.  >:(
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 09:51:43 AM
If you keep proving my points I won't have anything to do. So in your environment women make extreme decisions? I wonder why that is?
Because for whatever reason they feel holier being more extreme than required.
Now what point of yours am I allegedly proving ?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:54:47 AM
Because for whatever reason they feel holier being more extreme than required.
I am not disagreeing with you. I am trying to understand why in your environment they feel that way.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:55:26 AM
The controls weren't mentioned in the article, because an article is not a study.
The study is linked but you didn't read it.

PUOSU
No need to be so aggressive
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:56:25 AM
I am not disagreeing with you. I am trying to understand why in your environment they feel that way.
Because in our environment it is considered a good this to be tznius
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:56:38 AM
From the way the poll is worded, it's clear how the OP leans.
That's the purpose of a poll. To validate your point.  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:59:02 AM
Because in our environment it is considered a good this to be tznius
I get that but why would they be fair more extreme on the subject?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 09:59:35 AM
I get that but why would they be fair more extreme on the subject?
Because it makes them feel holier.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 09:59:49 AM
No need to be so aggressive
He gets that way when things don't go his way.  ;)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:00:44 AM
That's the purpose of a poll. To validate your point.  :)
You are making a point? I thought you were trying to understand a culture you are not a part of.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 10:03:37 AM
Because it makes them feel holier.
Is that what they are taught growing up?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on December 31, 2017, 10:04:47 AM

We can discuss anything & everything (in fact we do), but most, if not all, of these magazines have rabbonim guiding them.

Seems not to be so:

Then it’s time for them to retire


Mishpacha and Ami cater to a very wide spectrum of people, from Mizrachi to Satmar. Who should their Rabbis be?

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:05:37 AM
Is that what they are taught growing up?
If they were taught that it was by women. I did not find that my daughters were taught that extreme is better.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 10:07:46 AM
You are making a point? I thought you were trying to understand a culture you are not a part of.
I didn't start the thread or the poll. I am trying to understand a culture. Remember understanding is a benefit but don't take that to mean I am agreeing.

I believe many things in religion is sexist. Is that something you can understand why?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Boruch999 on December 31, 2017, 10:09:26 AM
I didn't start the thread or the poll. I am trying to understand a culture. Remember understanding is a benefit but don't take that to mean I am agreeing.

I believe many things in religion is sexist. Is that something you can understand why?

Define sexism please.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 10:10:51 AM
If they were taught that it was by women. I did not find that my daughters were taught that extreme is better.
Is it possible by what they see and hear every day is why they are more extreme.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:12:38 AM
Is it possible by what they see and hear every day is why they are more extreme.
Of course, but their being extreme is not limited to this. These same families are typically extreme on countless other things as well.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 10:12:53 AM
Define sexism please.
sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 10:16:24 AM
Of course, but their being extreme is not limited to this. These same families are typically extreme on countless other things as well.
So the environment they grow up in has a large impact.
This all goes back to the OP. Not seeing girls/women in papers/magazines/books has to affect boys/girls growing up.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Boruch999 on December 31, 2017, 10:18:47 AM
sexism - prejudice, stereotyping, or discrimination, typically against women, on the basis of sex.

Judaism doesn't discriminate against women, it discriminates between men and women.  Not being able to discriminate between things that are different is usually considered a problem.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:19:04 AM
So the environment they grow up in has a large impact.
This all goes back to the OP. Not seeing girls/women in papers/magazines/books has to affect boys/girls growing up.
Yes it will have an effect. Everything has an effect. My opinion is that this is a better effect than the effect from the way some secular publications depict women.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 10:19:33 AM
Many girls and women will tell you there are no women or girls in magazines because it's 'not tznius' because that's what they are taught. They don't really know what they mean even.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sammy82 on December 31, 2017, 10:28:56 AM
Yes it will have an effect. Everything has an effect. My opinion is that this is a better effect than the effect from the way some secular publications depict women.
+1
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 31, 2017, 10:31:19 AM
The question is, will the magazines finally cave in to the pressure from groups mentioned in the article and start printing the pictures?


Do they represent the "silent majority", or are they just a vocal minority?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 10:32:30 AM
Do they represent the "silent majority", or are they just a vocal minority?
Time for a new poll.  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:32:36 AM
Many girls and women will tell you there are no women or girls in magazines because it's 'not tznius' because that's what they are taught. They don't really know what they mean even.
Should a woman consider it tznius to model clothing for publication to be viewed by men?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:34:41 AM
The question is, will the magazines finally cave in to the pressure from groups mentioned in the article and start printing the pictures?


Do they represent the "silent majority", or are they just a vocal minority?
I would bet that the ones who are bothered enough by this to not buy the magazine aren't buying them either way.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 10:35:12 AM
Should a woman consider it tznius to model clothing for publication to be viewed by men?
If they are dressed and look modest ?

Honestly I have issues with ads as it is. The ones with women and the ones with men.  I haven't quite thought it all through so I can't give my final opinion. 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:37:11 AM
If they are dressed and look modest ?

Honestly I have issues with ads as it is. The ones with women and the ones with men.  I haven't quite thought it all through so I can't give my final opinion.
Ads are by definition trying to attract the attention of the reader as are the graphics on an article.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 31, 2017, 10:40:02 AM
I would bet that the ones who are bothered enough by this to not buy the magazine aren't buying them either way.

That's what I"m trying to wrap my mind around.

Are there people that are that upset at the lack of pictures that they refuse to buy the magazines?

I would think that someone who does not want pictures and does one day see them in print would be more upset and end up not buying the magazine than somone who does want pictures and still doesn't see them.


But I don't know. That's what I want to discuss. If I were able to add another poll, it would read:

If you answered "Sure! Why not?" - would you boycott publications that don't?

If you answered "No way" - would you boycott publications that do?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 10:47:41 AM
I think many people who voted sure why not have not boycotted these magazines.



The same way my Chassidish Belzer bnei brak cousins and her friends wish they could drive, are married to men who see nothing wrong with them driving but no one's protesting in the streets. 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yhaller14 on December 31, 2017, 10:51:14 AM


The question is, will the magazines finally cave in to the pressure from groups mentioned in the article and start printing the pictures?

Nope, never is the answer for 98% of them
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 10:56:29 AM
The question is, will the magazines finally cave in to the pressure from groups mentioned in the article and start printing the pictures?


Do they represent the "silent majority", or are they just a vocal minority?
What pressure? Do they feel pressure at all just because CM is hocking about it?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 31, 2017, 11:02:43 AM
What pressure? Do they feel pressure at all just because CM is hocking about it?

CM never bought or will buy any of the magazines so he's not nogei'a.

I'm talking about the ones mentioned in the article:

Tens of thousands of Orthodox women, who adhere to the publications’ values outside of this deeply painful and humiliating policy, find the approach disturbing and puzzling. There are Facebook groups dedicated to the sole effort of changing these policies.

and

By the hundreds, frum women have contacted the publications to request a change in policy.

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 11:20:21 AM
CM never bought or will buy any of the magazines so he's not nogei'a.

I'm talking about the ones mentioned in the article:

Tens of thousands of Orthodox women, who adhere to the publications’ values outside of this deeply painful and humiliating policy, find the approach disturbing and puzzling. There are Facebook groups dedicated to the sole effort of changing these policies.

and

By the hundreds, frum women have contacted the publications to request a change in policy.
We need to tell the writers of the article poidh
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 11:21:12 AM
CM never bought or will buy any of the magazines so he's not nogei'a.

I'm talking about the ones mentioned in the article:

Tens of thousands of Orthodox women, who adhere to the publications’ values outside of this deeply painful and humiliating policy, find the approach disturbing and puzzling. There are Facebook groups dedicated to the sole effort of changing these policies.

and

By the hundreds, frum women have contacted the publications to request a change in policy.

Is it indeed humiliating?

Reminds me of when my kids complain about someone bothering them. More often than not, it's the choice of the person being bothered as to whether they are bothered or not.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 11:24:16 AM
  I haven't quite thought it all through so I can't give my final opinion.
Good thing you aren’t the Rabbi :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 11:25:34 AM
Good thing you aren’t the Rabbi :)
True.  Many aren't even allowed to have opinions. 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 11:28:33 AM
True.  Many aren't even allowed to have opinions.
wrong. Everybody is free to have opinions & join whichever community they feel best represents their opinions & can choose any Rabbi they want & can buy any magazines they want. If your cousins don’t like belz they’re free to find a different community. But they shouldn’t expect belz to change to their opinions.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on December 31, 2017, 11:29:41 AM
True.  Many aren't even allowed to have opinions.
I said that half in jest. Sorry I forgot to put the smiley.  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 11:30:48 AM
Sorry I forgot to put the smiley.  :)
cardinal sin >:( :D
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 01:11:54 PM
Actually you need to PUOSH. You claimed there was controls so link to them.
You also called me a liar. Be a man and now apologize.  >:(

You said there were no controls, you still never proven that.
You wanna use your SJW ramblings to argue with the studies, go ahead, other wise PUOSU.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: yuneeq on December 31, 2017, 01:13:11 PM
No need to be so aggressive

Nothing aggressive about what you quoted.

If you’re referring to PUOSU, there’s a reason why it’s repeatedly used against the same individual.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 01:14:57 PM
Is it indeed humiliating?

Reminds me of when my kids complain about someone bothering them. More often than not, it's the choice of the person being bothered as to whether they are bothered or not.
As a rebbi once said to my son, he is not bothering you, you are being bothered. That has become part of the lexicon in my house.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:47:04 PM
If you’re referring to PUOSU, there’s a reason why it’s repeatedly used against the same individual.
Because Jews stick together.  ::)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 31, 2017, 01:51:42 PM
You said there were no controls, you still never proven that.
You wanna use your SJW ramblings to argue with the studies, go ahead, other wise PUOSU.
There are no mention of controls in the article you posted. You called me a liar but the fact remains what I said is true. Now you can go on with your childish name calling or you can show us all where in the article it talks about controls they used.

ETA: By the way do you have access to the study that you claim has these controls? The link in the article takes you to a pay site.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 02:28:59 PM
As a rebbi once said to my son, he is not bothering you, you are being bothered. That has become part of the lexicon in my house.
We should all internalize the message. It's not about developing a thick skin, like some might think, it's about actually not being bothered, annoyed, victimized, or humiliated. It might actually have something to do with some healthy self esteem and confidence.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 04:18:59 PM
Poll is currently tied
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 04:28:10 PM
Poll is currently tied
NOOOO!!!! someone else voted only Jewish women. I chose that because I wanted to be the only one!!!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on December 31, 2017, 04:31:15 PM
"No way" picked up the early lead, but the "Sure! Why not?" precincts took their time in reporting and have now taken over the lead.
No word on recount procedures.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 04:35:34 PM
"No way" picked up the early lead, but the "Sure! Why not?" precincts took their time in reporting and have now taken over the lead.
No word on recount procedures.
Need to bus in the voters (usernames).
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 04:36:46 PM
Need to bus in the voters (usernames).
They were all just in ORD last week!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on December 31, 2017, 04:37:32 PM
CNN and FOX are saying too close to call.
Anyone have the NYTimes prediction?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 04:38:32 PM
They were all just in ORD last week!
Yeah, but by now they should all be near their polling places.

Any word on when polling booths close?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 04:39:44 PM
CNN and FOX are saying too close to call.
Anyone have the NYTimes prediction?
What about FiveThirtyEight and Zogby?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 04:40:08 PM
Yeah, but by now they should all be near their polling places.

Any word on when polling booths close?
wadaya mean! ORD is THE place for that!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 04:41:01 PM
wadaya mean! ORD is THE place for that!
I thought over there one doesn't even need a pulse in order to vote.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 04:44:02 PM
Time for a DDF magazine with CM as Rabbi. Obviously anything goes
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 04:48:28 PM
Time for a DDF magazine with CM as Rabbi. Obviously anything goes
Where are the advertising $$$ coming from?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on December 31, 2017, 04:51:12 PM
Where are the advertising $$$ coming from?
CM’s job of course.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on December 31, 2017, 04:53:33 PM
CM’s job of course.
Will he be advertising or will he be selling ads to JTZ, CV, HM et al.?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on December 31, 2017, 04:58:28 PM
Where are the advertising $$$ coming from?
From the thousands who are offended by the ones leaving women out!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on December 31, 2017, 05:00:17 PM
I think we need the poll in יידיש we may get completely different results.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 31, 2017, 08:34:31 PM
Is it indeed humiliating?

Reminds me of when my kids complain about someone bothering them. More often than not, it's the choice of the person being bothered as to whether they are bothered or not.

I don't understand. The author condemns how women have been obliterated from these publications. Yet women are constantly featured, discussed and praised in these magazines. It's just their photograph that doesn't appear. Are they saying that a women's entire worth is in her appearance, not her education, achievements and career?

The editor of the Mishpacha is a woman. The editor of the Hamodia is a woman. The editor of the Family First is a woman. The editor of the Ami Living is a woman.

These publications have steady female columnists who are successful psychologists, educators, doctors, and business professionals, not to mention rebbetzins.

What is humiliating about not having your picture?

I've read countless articles in various academic journals. None of them have pictures of the professors who authored them, just their names.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on December 31, 2017, 09:37:02 PM
I don't understand. The author condemns how women have been obliterated from these publications. Yet women are constantly featured, discussed and praised in these magazines. It's just their photograph that doesn't appear. Are they saying that a women's entire worth is in her appearance, not her education, achievements and career?

The editor of the Mishpacha is a woman. The editor of the Hamodia is a woman. The editor of the Family First is a woman. The editor of the Ami Living is a woman.

These publications have steady female columnists who are successful psychologists, educators, doctors, and business professionals, not to mention rebbetzins.

What is humiliating about not having your picture?

I've read countless articles in various academic journals. None of them have pictures of the professors who authored them, just their names.
only difference is  they dont have pictures of any authors male or female.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on December 31, 2017, 09:52:00 PM
i find interesting that the author of that article is calling on rabbinic leadership to do the right  thing by following her views
seems like she is confused on the definition of rabbinic leadership.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 31, 2017, 10:22:12 PM
only difference is  they dont have pictures of any authors male or female.

Right, which shows that its the content that matters, no? And that their picture doesn't define them; they don't feel "humiliated" when their picture isn't shown.

Not all columns in heimishe publications have pictures of their authors, either.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: hvaces42 on December 31, 2017, 10:26:54 PM
Right, which shows that its the content that matters, no? And that their picture doesn't define them; they don't feel "humiliated" when their picture isn't shown.

Not all columns in heimishe publications have pictures of their authors, either.
Someone please post the missed the point gif...

Here tattelleh...we will spoonfeed it to you so you get it...every male writer in the frum publications can have his picture posted. No women are accorded the same respect.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: etech0 on December 31, 2017, 10:35:16 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DHm3DTwUAAA-jol.jpg)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: etech0 on December 31, 2017, 10:35:26 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/TL9eJum.png)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on December 31, 2017, 10:54:03 PM
Someone please post the missed the point gif...

Here tattelleh...we will spoonfeed it to you so you get it...every male writer in the frum publications can have his picture posted. No women are accorded the same respect.

Point boomeranged, came around and hit me in the face.

Still, is it "humiliating" not to be offered to have your picture? Disrespectful, as you put it? Do the women in the magazine even want their pictures in? If they want their pictures printed alongside their articles, they can submit them to publications that will do so. Why demand of the heimeshe publications to accede to their demands?

Ms. Keats Jaskoll published her article in a place that gladly puts the author's picture in, and she is entitled to do so, obviously. She is free to read and publish in places that have women's pictures. But why impose her demands on other communities that don't?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: hvaces42 on January 01, 2018, 12:08:29 AM
Point boomeranged, came around and hit me in the face.

Still, is it "humiliating" not to be offered to have your picture? Disrespectful, as you put it? Do the women in the magazine even want their pictures in? If they want their pictures printed alongside their articles, they can submit them to publications that will do so. Why demand of the heimeshe publications to accede to their demands?

Ms. Keats Jaskoll published her article in a place that gladly puts the author's picture in, and she is entitled to do so, obviously. She is free to read and publish in places that have women's pictures. But why impose her demands on other communities that don't?
Impose her demands. You guys make it sound like its such a burden. Oy, these impossible women. Misogyny, much?

The question still remains, where, when and how did this become the norm in orthodox publications? When did little girls become sexualized that frum men cannot be trusted to look at them? When did tznius dressed women become vixens to be avoided at all costs.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 12:13:59 AM

The question still remains, where, when and how did this become the norm in orthodox publications? When did little girls become sexualized that frum men cannot be trusted to look at them? When did tznius dressed women become vixens to be avoided at all costs.
The big issue will be that there is no way these publications could make anyone happy with defining tznius.
It is definitely the easy way out to avoid having a big advertiser submit an ad which may be suggestive even with all lines kept to and have to deal with explaining to the advertiser why the ad they spent money on making doesn't meet the standards.
Some of the more chassidish it is ideological. That has at this point spilled over into other communities as well. I think some is not having the backbone or the interest in standing up to those who go overboard but some is also to avoid what would become constant haggling over standards.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: hvaces42 on January 01, 2018, 12:19:25 AM
Lowest common denominator = ideology = misogyny

Got it. Thanks. Makes perfect sense now. No room for common sense in any of this.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 12:21:11 AM
Lowest common denominator = ideology = misogyny

Got it. Thanks. Makes perfect sense now. No room for common sense in any of this.
1=2=3
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: efflpetzel on January 01, 2018, 01:07:13 AM
In telushkin's book 'Rebbe' I loved the Rebbe's response when asked whether to include pics of girls when the tzivos hashem magazine was first published
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 02:36:07 AM
204 comments and some nice Sparks...

Bottom line.

Ppl that don't want pictures of women in the publications believe that it will cause harm to their children/families yiddishkeit and will stop a subscription of any paper if they were to change. While the others don't have .05% of that conviction.

Therefore they win.

And while some 100s of women wrote letters to the publications, there are every week 10s of calls to publications complaining about how their  standards have fallen. ( I have heard this first-hand from the publications biz )



Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: hvaces42 on January 01, 2018, 04:10:07 AM
204 comments and some nice Sparks...

Bottom line.

Ppl that don't want pictures of women in the publications believe that it will cause harm to their children/families yiddishkeit and will stop a subscription of any paper if they were to change. While the others don't have .05% of that conviction.

Therefore they win.

And while some 100s of women wrote letters to the publications, there are every week 10s of calls to publications complaining about how their  standards have fallen. ( I have heard this first-hand from the publications biz )
And those phone calls are the product of an intolerant misogynist and perverted form of Judaism.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on January 01, 2018, 08:17:01 AM
204 comments and some nice Sparks...

Bottom line.

Ppl that don't want pictures of women in the publications believe that it will cause harm to their children/families yiddishkeit and will stop a subscription of any paper if they were to change. While the others don't have .05% of that conviction.

Therefore they win.

And while some 100s of women wrote letters to the publications, there are every week 10s of calls to publications complaining about how their  standards have fallen. ( I have heard this first-hand from the publications biz )

Are the ones who 'yell' the loudest always right?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on January 01, 2018, 08:20:55 AM
And those phone calls are the product of an intolerant misogynist and perverted form of Judaism.
i  dont think thats even close to being true. you will not find any mainstream rabbonim that will tell you to be printing pictures of women in  magazines. people have a misconception that צניעות means covered. the true definition is hidden . כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. while that doesnt apply to pictures of little girls ( which im assuming no one really cares about that anyways ) it definitely applies to anyone over the age of בת מצוה no matther how well they are dressed
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 08:26:49 AM
204 comments and some nice Sparks...

Bottom line.

Ppl that don't want pictures of women in the publications believe that it will cause harm to their children/families yiddishkeit and will stop a subscription of any paper if they were to change. While the others don't have .05% of that conviction.

Therefore they win.

And while some 100s of women wrote letters to the publications, there are every week 10s of calls to publications complaining about how their  standards have fallen. ( I have heard this first-hand from the publications biz )
Your argument just underscores the issue that she and others take with this policy.  Yes, the magazines are free to do as they want, but why is there such an impassioned protest against something that has little to no basis in Judaism. And if @aygart is right that it's just easier to have a zero tolerance policy than figuring  out where to draw the line, why would anybody be offended if the magazines tried being more subtle, and nuanced with a clear policy of which images are acceptable?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 08:31:27 AM
i  dont think thats even close to being true. you will not find any mainstream rabbonim that will tell you to be printing pictures of women in  magazines. people have a misconception that צניעות means covered. the true definition is hidden . כל כבודה בת מלך פנימה. while that doesnt apply to pictures of little girls ( which im assuming no one really cares about that anyways ) it definitely applies to anyone over the age of בת מצוה no matther how well they are dressed
Valid point, but why do you think no one cares about the lack of pictures of younger girls? To me thats more indicative of a dangerous and unhealthy extremism than anything else.
 
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on January 01, 2018, 08:34:42 AM
Valid point, but why do you think no one cares about the lack of pictures of younger girls? To me thats more indicative of a dangerous and unhealthy extremism than anything else.

+1
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on January 01, 2018, 08:37:01 AM
Valid point, but why do you think no one cares about the lack of pictures of younger girls? To me thats more indicative of a dangerous and unhealthy extremism than anything else.
when i say no one cares i mean that the main issue isnt with them.
no one is going to be happy if there would be pictures of little girls while still keeping women out.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 08:42:33 AM
when i say no one cares i mean that the main issue isnt with them.
no one is going to be happy if there would be pictures of little girls while still keeping women out.
As long as they keep a zero tolerance policy, They'll never be convinced that the policy is for their benifit and/or due to @aygart's reason.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on January 01, 2018, 08:45:24 AM
As long as they keep a zero tolerance policy, They'll never be convinced that the policy is for their benifit and/or due to @aygart's reason.
they will never be convinced no matter what you do. they are coming with an agenda and until you conform to their agenda your a person who discriminates against women
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 08:51:34 AM
they will never be convinced no matter what you do. they are coming with an agenda and until you conform to their agenda your a person who discriminates against women
I don't think you're correct. There are obviously those that are just looking to tear us down but you can't  just dismiss any valid claim by saying its coming from that agenda. Otherwise you're guilty of what you're accusing them- not debating the merits of the 2 sides of the argument just accusing the other side of having hidden agenda.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on January 01, 2018, 08:55:45 AM
i already posted my reason why i dont think its a valid claim and i dont either think that their agenda is hidden
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: hvaces42 on January 01, 2018, 09:43:33 AM
For those who support the total ban on women anywhere they would probably be happier if somehow one  could make a wedding without the kallah too. There is some perversion of reality at play when you cant allow yourself to see a small girl modeling an outfit which is matching to a boys outfit and instead you would rather a headless mannequin. Because one wishes something were not seen doesnt mean it doesnt exist. It's fantasy, which is just as perverted and distorted as the thing it is supposedly intended to protect us from.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 09:46:36 AM
For those who support the total ban on women anywhere they would probably be happier if somehow one  could make a wedding without the kallah too. There is some perversion of reality at play when you cant allow yourself to see a small girl modeling an outfit which is matching to a boys outfit and instead you would rather a headless mannequin. Because one wishes something were not seen doesnt mean it doesnt exist. It's fantasy, which is just as perverted and distorted as the thing it is supposedly intended to protect us from.
Straw man alert.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 09:48:36 AM
when i say no one cares i mean that the main issue isnt with them.
no one is going to be happy if there would be pictures of little girls while still keeping women out.
FWIW that is what the Lakewood publications do.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 09:52:40 AM
It is definitely the easy way out to avoid having a big advertiser submit an ad which may be suggestive even with all lines kept to and have to deal with explaining to the advertiser why the ad they spent money on making doesn't meet the standards.
Cop out response.
Somehow DD has managed that balance for 13 years.

Never had an advertiser kvetch about our subjective standards and having to redo an ad or landing page, even if we don't have well defined written rules.

In the end if the day this is about what they feel will sell subscriptions.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 09:54:00 AM
Your argument just underscores the issue that she and others take with this policy.  Yes, the magazines are free to do as they want, but why is there such an impassioned protest against something that has little to no basis in Judaism. And if @aygart is right that it's just easier to have a zero tolerance policy than figuring  out where to draw the line, why would anybody be offended if the magazines tried being more subtle, and nuanced with a clear policy of which images are acceptable?
The problem is that
Much of tznius is subjective. Anyone who thinks it is a bunch of lines missed the boat.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 10:03:48 AM
Cop out response.
Somehow DD has managed that balance for 13 years.

Never had an advertiser kvetch about our subjective standards and having to redo an ad or landing page, even if we don't have well defined written rules.

In the end if the day this is about what they feel will sell subscriptions.
How often have you needed to change the pictures on an ad for women's clothing or shaitels?

It also has to do with your willingness to have a backbone.

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 10:06:40 AM
How often have you needed to change the pictures on an ad for women's clothing or shaitels?

It also has to do with your willingness to have a backbone.
Happens fairly often.
We've also required landing pages to be changed and/or have a disclaimer.

Saying it's impossible to find a happy medium is a copout, plain and simple.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 10:08:06 AM
Happens fairly often.
We've also required landing pages to be changed and/or have a disclaimer.

Saying it's impossible to find a happy medium is a copout, plain and simple.
I didn't say that it is impossible rather that it is the easy way out.

You also need to understand that there is a very big difference between a website and a magazine brought into the house.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 10:08:23 AM
The problem is that
Look at what I quoted and read what I wrote again, My point was not disagreeing with such a policy, but if that was the reasoning why would it engender such an outcry if they broke their policy.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 10:11:25 AM
I think the lack of pictures of even young girls in clothing ads epitomizes that there is something strange here.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 10:12:11 AM
Look at what I quoted and read what I wrote again, My point was not disagreeing with such a policy, but if that was the reasoning why would it engender such an outcry if they broke their policy.
I don't think it would engender such an outcry, but there would definitely be some who would stop buying it. Not having little girls is definitely on the extreme side. but keep in mind to an extent all modeling is untznius since
Ads are by definition trying to attract the attention of the reader as are the graphics on an article.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: zale on January 01, 2018, 10:30:55 AM
I think the lack of pictures of even young girls in clothing ads epitomizes that there is something strange here.

I think they would respond by saying that it’s not good chinuch to get young girls involved in modeling. I would just counter that by saying that they hire non-Jewish girls to model. In fact, they don’t have to be involved in the photography at all. There are companies that will take your clothing line, find the models and do the photography for you. (Some heimishe companies do this.)

In general, I think that the more promiscuous society gets, the more insular frum communities will become as a counter-measure. Think about it this way: normally you keep alcohol in plain view at home. However, if a family member has an alcohol problem, you will start to hide it. If his problem gets worse, you will throw it out and stop buying alcohol altogether. If it gets more extreme, you may throw out any magazines that have advertisements for alcohol and tell your family to not mention the word “alcohol” at all etc..

Point is, women’s faces became “not tznius” when society started shoving women’s bodies in people’s faces.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 10:34:32 AM



In general, I think that the more promiscuous society gets, the more insular frum communities will become as a counter-measure. Think about it this way: normally you keep alcohol in plain view at home. However, if a family member has an alcohol problem, you will start to hide it. If his problem gets worse, you will throw it out and stop buying alcohol altogether. If it gets more extreme, you may throw out any magazines that have advertisements for alcohol and tell your family to not mention the word “alcohol” at all etc..

Point is, women’s faces became “not tznius” when society started shoving women’s bodies in people’s faces.

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 10:35:23 AM
I think they would respond by saying that it’s not good chinuch to get young girls involved in modeling. I would just counter that by saying that they hire non-Jewish girls to model. In fact, they don’t have to be involved in the photography at all. There are companies that will take your clothing line, find the models and do the photography for you. (Some heimishe companies do this.)

In general, I think that the more promiscuous society gets, the more insular frum communities will become as a counter-measure. Think about it this way: normally you keep alcohol in plain view at home. However, if a family member has an alcohol problem, you will start to hide it. If his problem gets worse, you will throw it out and stop buying alcohol altogether. If it gets more extreme, you may throw out any magazines that have advertisements for alcohol and tell your family to not mention the word “alcohol” at all etc..

Point is, women’s faces became “not tznius” when society started shoving women’s bodies in people’s faces.
Agree with both points. The Lakewood publications do have girls in ads. I am pretty sure they are not Jewish models. I am not even sure it is the actual clothing in the store being modeled and that they are not generic photos.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 10:37:15 AM

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.
That doesn't mean it is not a natural response.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 10:40:07 AM
That doesn't mean it is not a natural response.
Except that's the thinking that eventually leads to burkas.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 10:40:08 AM
That doesn't mean it is not a natural response.
Fair enough, as long as you concede its not reasonable.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 10:42:47 AM
Fair enough, as long as you concede its not reasonable.
As a response the way @zale wrote? Correct, it is not reasonable. The analogy to alcohol is also not accurate. In that case you are dealing with someone who has an issue. That would be more similar to someone who has a hard time controlling themselves around women.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: username on January 01, 2018, 10:47:57 AM
Need to bus in the voters (usernames).
They were all just in ORD last week!

-1

/jk- but true.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: zale on January 01, 2018, 10:56:22 AM

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.
There is a distinction between making what’s mutar assur, and building a “fence”.

In this case, privately owned publications have a right to set guidelines as they see fit. They can deny an advertisement if they don’t like the way your nose looks.

Society is being very smug and disingenuous about the way women are being projected. They are hypersexualizing women day in and day out and telling you that if you don’t like it then you are just plain sexist, because you are trying to “suppress” women’s bodies.

It’s NOT normal for a man to immediately have non-tznius thoughts when looking at a woman’s face. However, when women are portrayed to men from a very young age as objects, this is where their mind will race to. Fight me all you want on this, but you KNOW it’s true.

Personally, I think that they SHOULD publish women in their publications in SPITE of society’s downfall. But I don’t blame them for taking a stance.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 11:01:19 AM


And those phone calls are the product of an intolerant misogynist and perverted form of Judaism.

You may consider is that way, but they firmly believe it.

Are the ones who 'yell' the loudest always right?

Nope. But those that are the post passionate about it will stop buying it and will cause financial harm to the publications while most here  suffice  to have this thread to vent ( no pun intended )

Your argument just underscores the issue that she and others take with this policy.  Yes, the magazines are free to do as they want, but why is there such an impassioned protest against something that has little to no basis in Judaism. And if @aygart is right that it's just easier to have a zero tolerance policy than figuring  out where to draw the line, why would anybody be offended if the magazines tried being more subtle, and nuanced with a clear policy of which images are acceptable?

I think that most rabbbis in the large tri state Orthodox communities ( BP, Flatbush, Monsey, Lakewood etc. ( Oh I forgot Williamsburg)) agree with this policy.( I'm talking about pictures of women not small girls )
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: zale on January 01, 2018, 11:04:55 AM
Except that's the thinking that eventually leads to burkas.

I agree with you to the extent of the new tznius laws and decrees coming out every day in certain communities. That is insanity and needs to stop.

I find publications in particular to be a little different. There aren’t any real halachic guidelines on that, so while I disagree with them, I won’t hold it against them if they err on the side of caution.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 11:08:30 AM
All part of the same problem.

When you're too afraid to draw the line at something like kids, things get out of control.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 01, 2018, 11:08:59 AM
Is there such a thing as women swimwear? If so how do they advertise?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 11:12:53 AM
Is there such a thing as women swimwear? If so how do they advertise?
Either on mannequins or by using associative images such as swimming pools. They get a creative designer so it shouldn't look like the ad posted earlier. This is even in publications geared specifically towards women.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 11:13:28 AM


For those who support the total ban on women anywhere they would probably be happier if somehow one  could make a wedding without the kallah too. There is some perversion of reality at play when you cant allow yourself to see a small girl modeling an outfit which is matching to a boys outfit and instead you would rather a headless mannequin. Because one wishes something were not seen doesnt mean it doesnt exist. It's fantasy, which is just as perverted and distorted as the thing it is supposedly intended to protect us from.


I think the lack of pictures of even young girls in clothing ads epitomizes that there is something strange here.

I think most ppl don't understand these ppl.  A friend of mine recently asked me if it's true that some chassidishe school in a different country had kindergarten teachers that are women. He didn't believe it.

I once asked a - chusid why they don't have nursery teachers and the response was that a 3 yr boy shouldn't be looking at a women.

The girls picture issues are run by ppl with those beliefs

Cop out response.
Somehow DD has managed that balance for 13 years.

Never had an advertiser kvetch about our subjective standards and having to redo an ad or landing page, even if we don't have well defined written rules.

In the end if the day this is about what they feel will sell subscriptions.

Online is a total different ball game. VIN and many others have pictures and videos of women.

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 11:15:21 AM
There is a distinction between making what’s mutar assur, and building a “fence”.

In this case, privately owned publications have a right to set guidelines as they see fit. They can deny an advertisement if they don’t like the way your nose looks.

Society is being very smug and disingenuous about the way women are being projected. They are hypersexualizing women day in and day out and telling you that if you don’t like it then you are just plain sexist, because you are trying to “suppress” women’s bodies.

It’s NOT normal for a man to immediately have non-tznius thoughts when looking at a woman’s face. However, when women are portrayed to men from a very young age as objects, this is where their mind will race to. Fight me all you want on this, but you KNOW it’s true.

Personally, I think that they SHOULD publish women in their publications in SPITE of society’s downfall. But I don’t blame them for taking a stance.
I think this approach only reinforces the objectifing of women. The message now is that We cant even allow men to get a glimpse of a woman without having improper thoughts.
Extreme opposites are closer related than healthy middle ground.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:29:37 AM

Nope. But those that are the post passionate about it will stop buying it and will cause financial harm to the publications while most here  suffice  to have this thread to vent ( no pun intended )

I believe this is the main reason it just not going to change.

I have said this in the past, DDF lacks active chassidish contributors/members and therefore is missing their way of thinking. I don't think the Chasidim really changed, kedusha has always been a big part of it. If anything, as the world is having more influence on the average Chusid it is forcing them make rules for the thing that were once understood by every Chusid.

The more the internet will evolve the more these publications will need the closed communities.

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 11:34:05 AM

I have said this in the past, DDF lacks active chassidish contributors/members and therefore is missing their way of thinking.
News to me.
Come to know many at DOs and seminars.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Sport on January 01, 2018, 11:34:15 AM


I believe this is the main reason it just not going to change.

I have said this in the past, DDF lacks active chassidish contributors/members and therefore is missing their way of thinking. I don't think the Chasidim really changed, kedusha has always been a big part of it. If anything, as the world is having more influence on the average Chusid it is forcing them make rules for the thing that were once understood by every Chusid.

The more the internet will evolve the more these publications will need the closed communities.

The opposite seems to be happening, the chasidish way of thinking is infiltrating main stream yeshiva communities.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:38:01 AM
I think this approach only reinforces the objectifing of women. The message now is that We cant even allow men to get a glimpse of a woman without having improper thoughts.
Extreme opposites are closer related than healthy middle ground.

More then making a distinction between smaller and older woman, is the distinction if they are modeling/presenting/trying to sell and random pictures of a woman in a tznisdigu environment say, politicians. and still in chassidish environment that has been a no for as long as I can think.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 11:39:34 AM

The opposite seems to be happening, the chasidish way of thinking is infiltrating main stream yeshiva communities.
It's a 2 way street. It's happening both ways.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:42:05 AM
News to me.
Come to know many at DOs and seminars.

I said active chassidish contributors/members

seminars shows nothing about topics discussed in JS

DOs I wasn't zocha yet. But we are talking about core chasidum, not the ones found at sports events...
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 11:42:46 AM
If you've never been to a DO than how do you pretend to know?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:45:27 AM

The opposite seems to be happening, the chasidish way of thinking is infiltrating main stream yeshiva communities.
It's a 2 way street. It's happening both ways.

It all comes down to money, you need to sell copies.
But talk about mixed events the chasidum did not influence the yeshiva communities. As there is no meeting point.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:46:48 AM
If you've never been to a DO than how do you pretend to know?

We have gotten some back pictures :P
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 11:48:22 AM
They don't want to be in the pictures.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Mordyk on January 01, 2018, 11:50:57 AM


I think most ppl don't understand these ppl.  A friend of mine recently asked me if it's true that some chassidishe school in a different country had kindergarten teachers that are women. He didn't believe it.


i was in a chasidish school ('90s) and i had female teachers until first grade, and until second grade for secular studies. that has changed since they now think that the older generation did wrong and they are way more holy now.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:53:23 AM
They don't want to be in the pictures.

Maybe one day there will be a DO not around food or sports ill see for myself:)

But are you arguing that the core chassidish way of thinking (wili, KJ, NS, BP, parts of Monsey) is advocated/represented on here to its percentage in the community?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 11:55:38 AM
i was in a chasidish school ('90s) and i had female teachers until first grade, and until second grade for secular studies. that has changed since they now think that the older generation did wrong and they are way more holy now.

Satmer, Sqver, Belz, Vizvnitz, Bobov, Pupa, and all other Hungarian schools never had.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Mordyk on January 01, 2018, 12:01:42 PM
Satmer, Sqver, Belz, Vizvnitz, Bobov, Pupa, and all other Hungarian schools never had.
-1 to atleast one of them. Which i attended
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:08:32 PM
-1 to atleast one of them. Which i attended

Bobov possibly a long time ago. But that's for a different reason.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 12:20:08 PM
Maybe one day there will be a DO not around food
When do you ever have a gathering of Jews which doesn't involve food?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:25:36 PM
When do you ever have a gathering of Jews which doesn't involve food?

I was trying to nice. I meant this indulgence

Now tell me what a DO requires? From some of the posts above it sounds like food indulgence is one of the requirements.

But your right food brings ppl together and has a place even in chassidus.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 12:29:09 PM
I was trying to nice. I meant this indulgence

But your right food brings ppl together and has a place even in chassidus.
Even?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on January 01, 2018, 12:30:02 PM
They don't want to be in the pictures.
You're telling me you don’t make them sign waivers on the way in ? :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 12:36:25 PM
I'm confused.
You want to meet in an empty room without farbeisin?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:36:44 PM
They don't want to be in the pictures.

Whats with leaks or paparazzi?  :o
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 12:37:23 PM
I have said this in the past, DDF lacks active chassidish contributors/members and therefore is missing their way of thinking.
Maybe one day there will be a DO not around food or sports ill see for myself:)

But are you arguing that the core chassidish way of thinking (wili, KJ, NS, BP, parts of Monsey) is advocated/represented on here to its percentage in the community?
You moved the goalposts.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Something Fishy on January 01, 2018, 12:38:02 PM
I said active chassidish contributors/members

seminars shows nothing about topics discussed in JS

DOs I wasn't zocha yet. But we are talking about core chasidum, not the ones found at sports events...

There are actually a ton of those around here. I know a good many personally.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Something Fishy on January 01, 2018, 12:38:26 PM
I'm confused.
You want to meet in an empty room without farbeisin?

There could be DOs on fast da-

Oh, wait.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:40:19 PM
I'm confused.
You want to meet in an empty room without farbeisin?

Repeat.

Now tell me what a DO requires? From some of the posts above it sounds like food indulgence is one of the requirements.

I'm not judging anyone it's just not me.
I would love to meet over farbeisin or anything scenic, cultural, educational, (Jewish)....
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 12:43:18 PM
-1 to atleast one of them. Which i attended
Bobov possibly a long time ago. But that's for a different reason.
Bobov still has for nursery and kindergarten
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Something Fishy on January 01, 2018, 12:43:46 PM
Repeat.

I'm not judging anyone it's just not me.
I would love to meet over farbeisin or anything scenic, cultural, educational, (Jewish)....

C'mon. There have been all these, and more. And I've been to plenty DOs - in restaurants - where half the crowd wasn't eating a thing.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:45:53 PM
There are actually a ton of those around here. I know a good many personally.

Core?
They don't write English
Am talking about the guys that get their news from Kol Mevaser. And if they are on the internet h"y it's in the Yiddish forums.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:47:04 PM
C'mon. There have been all these, and more. And I've been to plenty DOs - in restaurants - where half the crowd wasn't eating a thing.

Something new to me. See you next time!
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 12:47:59 PM
There are actually a ton of those around here. I know a good many personally.
What % of chassidishe ppl have smartphones? ( Of course there are but the number is under 50% IMHO )

And those that have how many are on DDF? And many of them aren't the Frum ones.

I think he's on to something.

Either way popcorn works anytime me me
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:48:49 PM
Bobov still has for nursery and kindergarten

So do lots of BP and Monsey schools for nursery less for kindergarten.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 12:53:23 PM
What % of chassidishe ppl have smartphones? ( Of course there are but the number is under 50% IMHO )

And those that have how many are on DDF? And many of them aren't the Frum ones.

I think he's on to something.

Either way popcorn works anytime me me

In order to participate in JS discussions, you need a minimum of English writing skills. And from time to time you see them in CC broad.
And this talking about men. Chassidishe vablech aren't represented on DDF.

And the topic of this thread is woman.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 01:01:38 PM
In order to participate in JS discussions, you need a minimum of English writing skills. And from time to time you see them in CC broad.
And this talking about men. Chassidishe vablech aren't represented on DDF.

And the topic of this thread is woman.
Freudian slip?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 01, 2018, 01:03:03 PM
What % of chassidishe ppl have smartphones? ( Of course there are but the number is under 50% IMHO )

And those that have how many are on DDF? And many of them aren't the Frum ones.


Ever heard of a desktop computer?

Core?
They don't write English
Am talking about the guys that get their news from Kol Mevaser. And if they are on the internet h"y it's in the Yiddish forums.

What do you call core? You think there aren't any chassidishe yungeleit who read/write English?

I listen to Kol Mevaser- where else would I hear interviews with Alan Dershowitz or Nick Muzin or with Yanky Meyer from Misaskim on what he was doing in Manhattan after the vehicle ramming terror attack? It's the best source of first-hand news, IMHO, better than any news site.


And this talking about men. Chassidishe vablech aren't represented on DDF.

And the topic of this thread is woman.

Some of my points I actually heard from "Chassidishe vablech". I'm wouldn't shoot off my own opinons without hearing what actual women have to say about it. After reading the TOI post, I just wanted to hear what people from other cirlces, who also read the heimeshe magazines, have to say about it.

And I must say, the poll has been very enlightening.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Something Fishy on January 01, 2018, 01:07:38 PM
Core?
They don't write English
Am talking about the guys that get their news from Kol Mevaser. And if they are on the internet h"y it's in the Yiddish forums.

OK, we could go in circles for a week here. Yes, core. I know a ton. Some do write English, some don't, and some will show a very marked improvement if you compare their early DDF posts with the later ones.

Moving on...
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 01:10:11 PM

What do you call core? You think there aren't any chassidishe yungeleit who read/write English?


No one said "aren't any" it is still a small minority. It was said relative to this thread. We are looking to understand the part of society that has brought the no woman at all into our publications. They are not properly represented here.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on January 01, 2018, 01:11:35 PM


Moving on...

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 01:11:58 PM
some will show a very marked improvement if you compare their early DDF posts with the later ones.

We all know good things come out of DDF JS discussions.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 01, 2018, 01:12:54 PM
No one said "aren't any" it is still a small minority. It was said relative to this thread. We are looking to understand the part of society that has brought the no woman at all into our publications. They are not properly represented here.

Ich her.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on January 01, 2018, 01:17:04 PM
Bottom line, we gotta figure out a way to make all DDF’hers feel welcome at DO’s. :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on January 01, 2018, 01:23:10 PM
OK, we could go in circles for a week here. Yes, core. I know a ton. Some do write English, some don't, and some will show a very marked improvement if you compare their early DDF posts with the later ones.

Moving on...
Do they start with regular english and then switch to English, or does their regular english improve? Or is starting in English and switching to the official language of DDF - regular english represent improvement?  ;)

ETA: if the correct answer is the latter, I guess I have quite a bit of improvement to work on. Should of started earlier  ;)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 01, 2018, 01:25:53 PM
Do they start with regular english and then switch to English, or does their regular english improve? Or is starting in English and switching to the official language of DDF - regular english represent improvement?  ;)

 ;D ;D ;D
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on January 01, 2018, 01:45:15 PM
Impose her demands. You guys make it sound like its such a burden. Oy, these impossible women. Misogyny, much?

The question still remains, where, when and how did this become the norm in orthodox publications? When did little girls become sexualized that frum men cannot be trusted to look at them? When did tznius dressed women become vixens to be avoided at all costs.
It's exactly because there are no hard lines in tznius (i.e., at least in what is considered dos Yehudis) and depends on community norms.
It changes block by block in Brooklyn. What is acceptable in the 30's is unacceptable 3 miles to the west.
So if a magazine wants to sell the maximum amount of copies, it goes to the "highest common denominator".
That simple. It's not the magazine. It's the fact that for thousands of years, we have had different shitos espoused by different communities. It worked fine when communities were segregated. But when everything is homogenized, you either get machlokes, or everyone has to compromise their ideals to satisfy everyone else
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on January 01, 2018, 01:57:14 PM
Are the ones who 'yell' the loudest always right?
Let's weigh the cost for each side.
Publication stands up for "women's rights"=loses subscribers, advertisers, risks being banned.
Publication stands up for "higher levels of tznius" = loses maybe a few subscribers (who probably were to "sophisticated" to read anything that the magazine was publishing anyway)
Quotes around words to imply the exaggerating
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: sky121 on January 01, 2018, 01:58:49 PM
Let's weigh the cost for each side.
Publication stands up for "women's rights"=loses subscribers, advertisers, risks being banned.
Publication stands up for "higher levels of tznius" = loses maybe a few subscribers (who probably were to "sophisticated" to read anything that the magazine was publishing anyway)
Quotes around words to imply the exaggerating
So all the 'religion based' decisions comes down to money. Interesting.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 01, 2018, 02:02:03 PM
Let's weigh the cost for each side.
Publication stands up for "women's rights"=loses subscribers, advertisers, risks being banned.
Publication stands up for "higher levels of tznius" = loses maybe a few subscribers (who probably were to "sophisticated" to read anything that the magazine was publishing anyway)
Quotes around words to imply the exaggerating

That is the whole case, in a nutshell. So why should the magazines lose money? As @Something Fishy once said,


At the end of the day though, "the Prophet exists to sell itself, you silly girl".
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: mgarfin on January 01, 2018, 02:02:31 PM
So all the 'religion based' decisions comes down to money. Interesting.

For a publication yes it's a for-profit business.
You can shift the conversation to an email from the Agudah or BMG to prove your point.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on January 01, 2018, 02:07:38 PM
For a publication yes it's a for-profit business.
You can shift the conversation to an email from the Agudah or BMG to prove your point.
+1
The original article actually wasn't criticizing the magazines so much as it was criticizing Rabbonim (OU and RCA) for not taking a stand and issuing guidelines.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 01, 2018, 02:09:41 PM
Bottom line, we gotta figure out a way to make all DDF’hers feel welcome at DO’s. :)
Then make them coed.  >:(
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 02:10:45 PM
Then make them coed.  >:(
Are they not?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 02:11:38 PM
In telushkin's book 'Rebbe' I loved the Rebbe's response when asked whether to include pics of girls when the tzivos hashem magazine was first published

(https://i.gyazo.com/c80998868d2b8b1b92a2c519443fc308.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/c531dc9a7a94df1a9e07fe1bb9a9bd4b.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/5fb82bc4046895c2b6a8b3436a0eaa86.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/c416ceafedbc0609a13d2b7108c9841d.png)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 01, 2018, 02:13:39 PM
Are they not?
I thought some weren't. I remember a past member bringing it up and it didn't go very far.
Maybe I will test it out next time.  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 02:14:16 PM
I thought some weren't. I remember a past member bringing it up and it didn't go very far.
Maybe I will test it out next time.  :)
I don't recall that.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 01, 2018, 02:16:40 PM
I don't recall that.
Maybe it was the Muslim forum I am on. With all this talk about women not being able to do things I am getting the two forums mixed up.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Dan on January 01, 2018, 02:20:33 PM
Maybe it was the Muslim forum I am on. With all this talk about women not being able to do things I am getting the two forums mixed up.
Easy mistake to make, but not too hard to tell them apart. Only one of them will kidnap and dismember you for practicing the wrong religion.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: henche on January 01, 2018, 02:26:14 PM
Poll needs more choices
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 01, 2018, 02:27:14 PM
Like?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 01, 2018, 02:28:21 PM
Easy mistake to make, but not too hard to tell them apart. Only one of them will kidnap and dismember you for practicing the wrong religion.
When I get real confused I just start my comment "On DDF" and see if they go crazy.  :)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 02:32:00 PM
In order to participate in JS discussions, you need a minimum of English writing skills.
LOL
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 01, 2018, 02:35:31 PM
So all the 'religion based' decisions comes down to money. Interesting.

No, all the business decisions come down to money.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on January 02, 2018, 03:00:00 AM

That does not sound like a reasonable response. See chava for example of what happens when you make whats mutar assur.
???   Oh yes??? How much does the חובות הלבבות elaborate on ...היו פורשים משבעים שערים של היתר שלא ליכשל בשער אחד של איסור? What does the mishna in Avos mean with all the גדרים וסייגים?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on January 02, 2018, 03:00:22 AM
And I must say, the poll has been very enlightening.
In what way?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on January 02, 2018, 03:00:39 AM
Bottom line, we gotta figure out a way to make all DDF'his and DDF’hers feel welcome at DO’s. :)
FTFY  :D
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: henche on January 02, 2018, 06:33:18 AM
Bottom line, we gotta figure out a way to make all DDF’hers feel welcome at DO’s. :)

I went to a DO. Nobody seemed extremely uncomfortable, except after eating the flowers
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: koplonko on January 02, 2018, 05:08:10 PM
(https://i.gyazo.com/c80998868d2b8b1b92a2c519443fc308.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/c531dc9a7a94df1a9e07fe1bb9a9bd4b.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/5fb82bc4046895c2b6a8b3436a0eaa86.png)

(https://i.gyazo.com/c416ceafedbc0609a13d2b7108c9841d.png)
Drawings of girls, never pictures
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: chevron on January 02, 2018, 05:37:57 PM
???   Oh yes??? How much does the חובות הלבבות elaborate on ...היו פורשים משבעים שערים של היתר שלא ליכשל בשער אחד של איסור? What does the mishna in Avos mean with all the גדרים וסייגים?

Yada yada yada. The author of chovot halevovot was influenced by sufi islam.

The mishna in avot says a lot of things, ultimately we follow Hillel not shammai for a reason.

The gemara mocks extreme perushim, one with blood on his face because he closes his eyes to not see a woman in the street and walks into a wall.

You can pull lines from anywhere, to learn and know lines doesnt bestow one with seichel any more than repeating to me rogov's wine encyclopedia doesnt make you a wine expert.

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Ergel on January 02, 2018, 05:53:54 PM
Yada yada yada. The author of chovot halevovot was influenced by sufi islam.

The mishna in avot says a lot of things, ultimately we follow Hillel not shammai for a reason.

The gemara mocks extreme perushim, one with blood on his face because he closes his eyes to not see a woman in the street and walks into a wall.

You can pull lines from anywhere, to learn and know lines doesnt bestow one with seichel any more than repeating to me rogov's wine encyclopedia doesnt make you a wine expert.


You yada yada yada's over the best part
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on January 02, 2018, 08:47:52 PM
Yada yada yada. The author of chovot halevovot was influenced by sufi islam.

The mishna in avot says a lot of things, ultimately we follow Hillel not shammai for a reason.

The gemara mocks extreme perushim, one with blood on his face because he closes his eyes to not see a woman in the street and walks into a wall.

You can pull lines from anywhere, to learn and know lines doesnt bestow one with seichel any more than repeating to me rogov's wine encyclopedia doesnt make you a wine expert.
as long as you agree that its not your sechel that counts its your rovs
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 02, 2018, 08:53:33 PM

So if a magazine wants to sell the maximum amount of copies, it goes to the "highest common denominator".


What % of chassidishe ppl have smartphones? ( Of course there are but the number is under 50% IMHO )

And those that have how many are on DDF? And many of them aren't the Frum ones.



Regarding chassidish people here on DDF: Actually, yes, most chassidish people in my circles do not have smartphones, or computers with Internet access, and are not posting on JS for the simple reason that they spend little time on the Internet, and when they do, it's for online banking, travel arranging etc. and not for "shmoozing"‎.

So they are definitely heavily underrepresented here. And many of these are the ones buying the Mishpacha etc., since they don't buy magazines like National Geographic, Time, or Popular Science, nor do they have access to online articles.

And for them, sending a letter to the editor is more of a hassle than those hundreds of people shooting off emails to the editor as part of a mass protest, so Mishpacha won't necessarily even hear their voices.

Also, it's not something they are going to fight over. If Mishpacha is going to go against their principles, they simply will stop buying.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: chevron on January 02, 2018, 08:56:00 PM
as long as you agree that its not your sechel that counts its your rovs

A rav in what ? Guiding you through life or ruling on issur and heter ?

The direction of orthodox judaism lacks seichel, usually judaism was tempered to that of society, regardless of those that say judaism doesnt change, it does, it adapts.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: gingyguy on January 02, 2018, 09:06:06 PM
it doesnt adapt according to the way the hamon am might want it to
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: chevron on January 02, 2018, 09:28:34 PM
it doesnt adapt according to the way the hamon am might want it to

A judge that gives down a ruling and the majority disagree... but the fact is, the masses are being misled. This extreme isolationism and the myriad of added chumros merely point to an empty belief system.

I keep hearing "there's no such thing as being too strict on pesach" oh yes there is, it led to a revulsion of judaism on my part and a long journey back complete with the fact that I will not go to my parents for the seder nor eat any shabbat or chag meal by them.

Extremists breed extreme opposition, I was not allowed to bring non jewish books in the house, this led me to hundreds of hours in the public library reading all types of garbage including Howard Stern's book.

True I would have not been as diverse and open minded had I not been forced to forge my own path.. but still
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shlonx on January 03, 2018, 01:13:59 PM
http://jewishweek.timesofisrael.com/womens-fight-to-be-pictured-in-orthodox-publications-growing/
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on January 03, 2018, 03:33:58 PM
A judge that gives down a ruling and the majority disagree... but the fact is, the masses are being misled. This extreme isolationism and the myriad of added chumros merely point to an empty belief system.

I keep hearing "there's no such thing as being too strict on pesach" oh yes there is, it led to a revulsion of judaism on my part and a long journey back complete with the fact that I will not go to my parents for the seder nor eat any shabbat or chag meal by them.

Extremists breed extreme opposition, I was not allowed to bring non jewish books in the house, this led me to hundreds of hours in the public library reading all types of garbage including Howard Stern's book.

True I would have not been as diverse and open minded had I not been forced to forge my own path.. but still
I don't agree. I think that any religion, regimen, etc., allows people with certain mental illnesses to hide their illness behind religion. You can use taharos to mask OCD, kibud at v'aim to mask narcissistic disorders, etc.
There isn't a good answer to the problem. To some extent you have to daven for the right rebbeim, teachers and mentors.

Returning to the issue at hand. Of course people who want to control people can use chumros as a way of controlling people. But it doesn't follow that all chumros therefore are meant to control people, or put down people. The fact that all murderers eat bread does not mean that bread causes murders. What you have to do is look at the other people eating bread that don't murder, and question your assumptions.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 03, 2018, 04:25:20 PM
Returning to the issue at hand. Of course people who want to control people can use chumros as a way of controlling people. But it doesn't follow that all chumros therefore are meant to control people, or put down people. The fact that all murderers eat bread does not mean that bread causes murders. What you have to do is look at the other people eating bread that don't murder, and question your assumptions.
So how do you think you can tell the difference between the ones who use it to control and the ones who don't?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: chevron on January 03, 2018, 04:42:33 PM
I miss reading the jewish press as a kid :/ though  my father didnt allow it in the bathroom.

Would love a weekly mag that was open minded, till then its WSJ and NYT weekend section
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on January 03, 2018, 04:44:50 PM
I miss reading the jewish press as a kid :/ though  my father didnt allow it in the bathroom.

Would love a weekly mag that was open minded, till then its WSJ and NYT weekend section
Did you mean out of the bathroom?  :P
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: chevron on January 03, 2018, 04:47:37 PM
Did you mean out of the bathroom?  :P

Actually I meant in the house... my biggest sin as a kid was that I was not allowed to listen to sportrs on the radio, I hated it... i'd use my money to buy the newspaper and read it cover to cover
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on January 03, 2018, 05:16:44 PM
So how do you think you can tell the difference between the ones who use it to control and the ones who don't?
Sometimes, you can tell (not always) by whether they can be intellectually honest.
For example, my father did not want to buy soda for pesach because it was too expensive. But instead of saying that, he made it into a chumro. However,we all saw through it since he allowed buying other items and it wasn't across the board.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Freddie on January 03, 2018, 05:21:56 PM
Sometimes, you can tell (not always) by whether they can be intellectually honest.
For example, my father did not want to buy soda for pesach because it was too expensive. But instead of saying that, he made it into a chumro. However,we all saw through it since he allowed buying other items and it wasn't across the board.

Halevai my biggest expense on Pesach would be soda.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Work-for-ur-muny on January 03, 2018, 05:22:49 PM
Halevai my biggest expense on Pesach would be soda.
Are likes kosher l'pesach?

Or do you not feed them to your kids claiming that they're too expensive?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on January 03, 2018, 07:23:17 PM
Sometimes, you can tell (not always) by whether they can be intellectually honest.
For example, my father did not want to buy soda for pesach because it was too expensive. But instead of saying that, he made it into a chumro. However,we all saw through it since he allowed buying other items and it wasn't across the board.
That doesn't sound like a power grab but rather an excuse.

The better way to tell is by whether they keep to it themselves or try to impose it on others. With schools it can be a little more vague since they possibly could have some standard but it should be a standard standard and not chumros.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on January 03, 2018, 07:27:06 PM
That doesn't sound like a power grab but rather an excuse.

The better way to tell is by whether they keep to it themselves or try to impose it on others. With schools it can be a little more vague since they possibly could have some standard but it should be a standard standard and not chumros.
You have that problem in schools, in families, in kehillos
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Ergel on February 05, 2018, 08:37:20 AM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/refuting-mishpachas-fake-history-claim/
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 05, 2018, 11:44:15 AM
Why does Binah magazine not have pictures of women?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Shauly101 on February 05, 2018, 01:04:56 PM
because your son might peek in accidentally :o
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: TimT on February 05, 2018, 01:06:13 PM
because your son might peek in accidentally :o
Read by men weekly. Yeh, I couldn’t either believe it
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 05, 2018, 03:15:29 PM
This tweet is a rare example of actual quality satire on the frum community.

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: henche on February 05, 2018, 06:57:31 PM
http://blogs.timesofisrael.com/refuting-mishpachas-fake-history-claim/

Well cited, indeed.

May I offer a compromise.  Publish pictures of women in black/white and taken with a 1940s camera?

Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Ergel on February 06, 2018, 09:47:42 AM
Well cited, indeed.

May I offer a compromise.  Publish pictures of women in black/white and taken with a 1940s camera?


Sounds good to me.
I wonder if the history would look any different when researching Israeli publications
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on February 06, 2018, 11:17:47 AM
Well cited, indeed.

May I offer a compromise.  Publish pictures of women in black/white and taken with a 1940s camera?
The question is whether women dressed up to current tznius standards back then.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on February 06, 2018, 11:24:27 AM
The question is whether women dressed up to current tznius standards back then.
Check the pictures in the article where some of the women are wearing short sleeves.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: henche on February 06, 2018, 11:27:59 AM
Check the pictures in the article where some of the women are wearing short sleeves.

There's a shell underneath.  Hard to tell because of the grainy pic.

I should teach in by
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on February 06, 2018, 11:29:56 AM
Check the pictures in the article where some of the women are wearing short sleeves.
Oh. I didn't even bother clicking on the article. I was on hiatus from this thread, and just visited it now and saw @henche's suggestion. Being that I've seen some pictures from various era, I commented as I did.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on February 06, 2018, 12:21:23 PM
I think the only valid point is that Mishpacha should cite their sources. And if it's one rov from 70 years ago, that for whatever reason was then a Shitas yachid but is now mainstream, cite the support from today's Rabbonim. It is an issue that is valid.
The way they are responding is as if they don't consider it to be an issue.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Ergel on February 06, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
The question is whether women dressed up to current tznius standards back then.
Why is that the question?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on February 06, 2018, 01:33:10 PM
Why is that the question?
Because (if) they might have not, how does using a 1940s picture solve any issues. It might be b/w and low quality, but the dress code might not be up to par.

The magazines that don't publish pictures of women, do so regardless of how stringent the tznius standard of the pictured women is.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Ergel on February 06, 2018, 01:49:35 PM
Because (if) they might have not, how does using a 1940s picture solve any issues. It might be b/w and low quality, but the dress code might not be up to par.

The magazines that don't publish pictures of women, do so regardless of how stringent the tznius standard of the pictured women is.
Well cited, indeed.

May I offer a compromise.  Publish pictures of women in black/white and taken with a 1940s camera?


He said 1940s camera, not 1940s pictures
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on February 06, 2018, 02:00:49 PM
My grandmother used to tell us before showing us her pictures for the 40s " that it was a different time".


Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: aygart on February 06, 2018, 03:29:16 PM
My grandmother used to tell us before showing us her pictures for the 40s " that it was a different time".

They most definitely were. I've mentioned my uncle's hotel in the past such as here
WHen my great uncle had his hotel in the mountains in the 50s, 60s, and 70s the kitchen was also run according to home standards and it was mostly a bunch of sisters in aw doing the cooking. Even when they hired a cook they were still quite involved and kept to home standards. The type of kitchen was not the same as a current commercial kitchen either. He had no hechsher but all of the gedolim of the time including R Moshe, R Aharon, the Debreciner Rov and the Mattersdorfer Rov and many others all ate there. At one point he had a hotel in Lakewood and that is where R Shneur's chasuna was. Things were different then, but a yeshiva type kitchen has a much easier time than a hotel.

My uncle had told me that for a period he also had a hotel in Miami. Before opening he went to check into the shchita there and for whatever reason was dissatisfied. There was also a train which brought meat from an NY shchita down to FL. In order to check it out he drove alongside the train one week. At one station a worker sees him and calls him over to rinse the meat since it wasn't yet salted. The worker gave him a hose and he was lifting the chunks to make sure he rinsed all over. The worker asked why it was taking so long since "everyone else just gives a quick spray around the car". So he didn't take that meat either. Instead he got the meat from a shchita in NJ and rushed it to his Lakewood hotel to salt it and rushed it back to be in time for the train going down keeping his packed separately.

In this hotel where all of these rabbonim stayed etc. and the Agudah made their conventions there was mixed swimming. R' Moshe told my uncle at the time that he should not enforce separate swimming but should rather make a separate pool for separate swimming because the hotel at the time was the only one whoch chained off the parking lot over shabbos and was THE frum hotel. It was used by only my father and his cousins. R Moshe felt that was not the fight to be busy with at the time.

In her next article she will write that all of these rabbonim stayed at a hotel which had mixed swimming.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Yammer on February 06, 2018, 03:38:41 PM
They most definitely were. I've mentioned my uncle's hotel in the past such as here
In this hotel where all of these rabbonim stayed etc. and the Agudah made their conventions there was mixed swimming. R' Moshe told my uncle at the time that he should not enforce separate swimming but should rather make a separate pool for separate swimming because the hotel at the time was the only one whoch chained off the parking lot over shabbos and was THE frum hotel. It was used by only my father and his cousins. R Moshe felt that was not the fight to be busy with at the time.

In her next article she will write that all of these rabbonim stayed at a hotel which had mixed swimming.
100%

That's my point..
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on February 06, 2018, 04:18:59 PM
He said 1940s camera, not 1940s pictures
I don't know how old you are, so I don't know what your experience with developing film is.

(Film being the medium on which images were captured, it required developing as a negative, and then enlarging onto photographic paper, which also needed some processing).

I am not sure up until what year 1940s media could still be processed.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Ergel on February 06, 2018, 04:40:13 PM
I know what film is. His comment was tongue in cheek. You misunderstood
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on February 06, 2018, 05:21:57 PM
I know what film is. His comment was tongue in cheek. You misunderstood
And mine wasn't?  ::)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: HBS on February 11, 2018, 07:37:32 AM
Well, won't be the first Mishpacha magazine boycott....(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/ce4fa02a2aab626c23cc8dd2d57bd8de.jpg)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Definitions on February 11, 2018, 11:49:31 AM
Well, won't be the first Mishpacha magazine boycott....(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180211/ce4fa02a2aab626c23cc8dd2d57bd8de.jpg)
It's always the ones that tread carefully that survive.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: chevron on February 15, 2018, 09:19:11 PM
This is a great alternative to having to Show women
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: elit on February 15, 2018, 11:57:25 PM
This is a great alternative to having to Show women
a pj library special
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: ExGingi on February 16, 2018, 09:15:23 AM
This is a great alternative to having to Show women
Illustrations are always a good alternative.

I wonder if any of the magazines don't even allow illustrations of females.

And since it's Friday, I'll ask the inevitable question, does she it make a difference how the illustrated character identifies?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Denverite on February 16, 2018, 04:22:37 PM
There is a beautiful new children’s e- magazine (for now) called Tmunah that does show appropriate pictures of girls and women.  They are asking for a $3 donation per issue but you can give whatever you want (so maybe just donate them a few bucks even if you don’t want the PDF).  :)

I just downloaded and printed the Adar issue for my daughter. It’s 36 pages with nice stuff in it (may daughter has already started some of the craft projects for Purim) and they have a beautifully respectful picture on the cover of Rebbetzin Jungreis, with an accompanying article. I thought it was a nice touch to have such a towering Torah teacher as a role model and also show not only “fringe” people are for including appropriate pictures of women.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: 12HRS on February 28, 2018, 10:17:35 PM
(https://i.imgur.com/pvwmhFV.jpg)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: shwarmabob on March 02, 2018, 08:47:45 AM
This is a great alternative to having to Show women
"Miri asked Aba, one of her dads"
What on the earth? This is a frum kids book?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: koplonko on March 04, 2018, 07:18:10 AM
I think it's a "frum" pro gay-marriage book
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Alexsei on March 14, 2018, 11:32:20 AM
This publication was banned in Kiryas Tosh to the the following terrible image

http://thenewsflash.ca/book/930/mobile/index.html#p=8
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Alexsei on March 14, 2018, 11:38:41 AM
Isnt it a boy?

Maybe TG ?
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: jj1000 on March 14, 2018, 11:40:05 AM
Maybe TG ?
It's a pre upsherin boy with ponies in his hair. What is wrong with people.
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: Alexsei on March 14, 2018, 11:42:27 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/flD842U.png)
Title: Re: Women in Jewish magazines
Post by: username on March 14, 2018, 11:48:23 AM
Makes sense. I would also not like pictures of little boys with pierced earrings in my house.