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DansDeals Forum => Up In The Air => Topic started by: tavster on January 03, 2018, 02:43:32 AM

Title: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: tavster on January 03, 2018, 02:43:32 AM
LY just published a new strategic plan including:
- 3 weekly flights to SFO on the Dreamliner starting Q4
- By end of 2019 all of their 737-800 will have new retrofitted seats in both Y and C, and will all have wifi
- Introduction of "packages" for European routes as per chart below, and as a result they will discontinue their UP low cost brand
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner starting Q4
Post by: David Smith on January 03, 2018, 03:11:48 AM
Why do they feel such a need to fight UA for SFO when they already have a west coast presence in LAX? They should fly to ORD instead.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner starting Q4
Post by: tavster on January 03, 2018, 03:16:34 AM
Why do they feel such a need to fight UA for SFO when they already have a west coast presence in LAX? They should fly to ORD instead.
Personally I fly from Israel to SFO a few times a year and ElAl wasn't competitive at all. Going through LAX meant that you couldn't get to SFO before 10ish in the morning as opposed to 6am for UA. Also they must have realized that there is strong demand from the all the tech / startup people for that route.

If at all I would have dropped the LAX route
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner starting Q4
Post by: Proisrael on January 03, 2018, 04:49:40 AM
Personally I fly from Israel to SFO a few times a year and ElAl wasn't competitive at all. Going through LAX meant that you couldn't get to SFO before 10ish in the morning as opposed to 6am for UA. Also they must have realized that there is strong demand from the all the tech / startup people for that route.

If at all I would have dropped the LAX route

LAX is a huge market for standard travelers. It is a completely different market.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner starting Q4
Post by: tavster on January 03, 2018, 04:54:30 AM
LAX is a huge market for standard travelers. It is a completely different market.
Understood. I guess that's why they are keeping both
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 06:32:38 AM
I personally think they are making a mistake. There is a very big percentage of every route that relies on connecting passengers. And being that they are that close to LAX, connections aren't so necessary.
Similar to the not-very-succesful BOS route where people can connect via NYC. Seriously, how many passengers on the BOS flight are actually originating/finishing in BOS? 20-30%? On the NYC route it's probably more like 80%. Even LAX and YYZ, I'd assume that more than 50% of passengers are not connecting. But is there really that much demand for non-stop to/from SFO after UA already operates a daily flight on the route?
Just MHO
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 08:32:03 AM
LY just published a new strategic plan including:
- 3 weekly flights to SFO on the Dreamliner starting Q4
- By end of 2019 all of their 737-800 will have new retrofitted seats in both Y and C, and will all have wifi
- Introduction of "packages" for European routes as per chart below, and as a result they will discontinue their UP low cost brand
Will they wait till 2019 to discontinue UP or will they do it sooner?
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: tavster on January 03, 2018, 08:37:51 AM
Will they wait till 2019 to discontinue UP or will they do it sooner?
It's not clear yet. They said that the new packages will be launched on April 30th for flights starting October 15th, so I'm assuming that by October 15h UP will disappear
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: chff on January 03, 2018, 08:47:27 AM


- Introduction of "packages" for European routes as per chart below, and as a result they will discontinue their UP low cost brand

Looks like Fare Families / Branded fares
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 09:33:26 AM

Looks like Fare Families / Branded fares
What does that mean?
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 09:47:56 AM
It's not clear yet. They said that the new packages will be launched on April 30th for flights starting October 15th, so I'm assuming that by October 15h UP will disappear
It's actually an upgrade, maybe LY is starting to realize they have competition?
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 10:24:49 AM
TLV-SFO on LY (20:1 odds of happening by 2018)

Hmmm...
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 10:25:51 AM
BOS route is being canceled once Maimons kid finishes school there.

If they announce the SFO route soon, we know he's going to Stanford or Berkeley for Grad school

Prophecy?
Title: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: raccah on January 03, 2018, 10:48:04 AM
Interesting article:

https://www.themarker.com/consumer/tourism/1.5586212

Dan I thought you would have been all over this already! They are closing terminal one, and that crap brand of theirs.

They are selling out and going the way of most airlines, and will have three seat options: Lite, Classic, and Flex. Nothing new here but the pricing will go up for sure.

The only good thing here is the direct SFo-TLV competition to United!!Sadly, only 4Q of 2018, which means 2019 at least!
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 10:49:19 AM
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=89215.0
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: pashakym on January 03, 2018, 10:58:15 AM
Finally!
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 03, 2018, 11:01:07 AM
Finally!
You sound relieved or possibly excited.

I'd be much happier if a better carrier (UA, DL, or maybe something out of the box coming up with a fifth freedom flight) would announce a new route such as ORD-TLV.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yitrap on January 03, 2018, 11:11:37 AM
Why do they feel such a need to fight UA for SFO when they already have a west coast presence in LAX? They should fly to ORD instead.
They probably don't want to fight UA in their home base, SFO isn't as hard.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: David Smith on January 03, 2018, 11:15:56 AM
They probably don't want to fight UA in their home base, SFO isn't as hard.
Fight UA? UA doesn't have a direct flight from ORD.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yitrap on January 03, 2018, 11:17:08 AM
Fight UA? UA doesn't have a direct flight from ORD.
Yet.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: David Smith on January 03, 2018, 11:17:54 AM
Yet.
Lol. I typed this sentence with that word, then went back and erased it.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yitrap on January 03, 2018, 11:19:22 AM
Lol. I typed this sentence with that word, then went back and erased it.
Then I guess I FTFY, they probably realize that that is the next place UA will go so they are just backing off
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: David Smith on January 03, 2018, 11:22:53 AM
Why is no more LY UP a good thing? Low cost options are a good thing to have around.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 11:25:38 AM
Can someone please combine the 2 threads?
Or at least rename one for the SFO route and the other for the changes on EU routes?
It's very annoying to have 2 threads discussing the exact same thing.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 11:28:02 AM
Why is no more LY UP a good thing? Low cost options are a good thing to have around.
Its not low cost, its the same price as their competition just with restrictions. I doubt the prices will be much higher, they'll still need to compete and it wont have as many restrictions as low cost.
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 11:40:28 AM
Then I guess I FTFY, they probably realize that that is the next place UA will go so they are just backing off
-1
According to Reuters, more routes in NA are expecting to be launched...
Quote
Maimon said El Al plans to add more long-haul routes but a decision would likely not be made until later in 2018.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 11:43:22 AM
Its not low cost, its the same price as their competition just with restrictions. I doubt the prices will be much higher, they'll still need to compete and it wont have as many restrictions as low cost.
-1
UP allows one ways etc. while regular routes don't. But I'm assuming the one-way restriction will disappear together with that checked bag....
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: tavster on January 03, 2018, 11:44:56 AM
-1
According to Reuters, more routes in NA are expecting to be launched...
I believe the article talks about adding long-haul routes, but not necessarily in NA
Title: Re: LY flights to SFO on the Dreamliner (plus a few other changes)
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 11:50:44 AM
I believe the article talks about adding long-haul routes, but not necessarily in NA
I hear. Anyhow, Maimon is stepping down shortly. So it's really up to the next CEO to make those decisions. Let's hope it's someone with brains....
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 11:50:56 AM
-1
UP allows one ways etc. while regular routes don't. But I'm assuming the one-way restriction will disappear together with that checked bag....
Isn't that a good thing?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 03, 2018, 11:51:28 AM
Can someone please combine the 2 threads?
Or at least rename one for the SFO route and the other for the changes on EU routes?
It's very annoying to have 2 threads discussing the exact same thing.
+1
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: pashakym on January 03, 2018, 04:33:38 PM
reposting from the main site

Quote
For a long time a local Israeli community used to run http://sfotlv.org/ "SFO TLV in 14.5 Hours". Now its down, but it was about how profitable would be this route. We filled surveys and many companies confirmed that they would be interested. AFAIK they presented this to United, El-Al and Delta. El Al turned down because they didn't want to damage their LAX-TLV flight and Delta thought it would not be profitable.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 03, 2018, 07:57:40 PM
Some good info here with comments from an LY insider - http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382639
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 03, 2018, 08:44:43 PM
Some good info here with comments from an LY insider - http://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1382639
Pretty cool  8)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2018, 08:55:39 PM
"This route is operated today by United, with 5 flights a week operated also by 787."

"with BOS & MIA opened just in the last few months. "

WTH?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 03, 2018, 09:17:45 PM
"This route is operated today by United, with 5 flights a week operated also by 787."

"with BOS & MIA opened just in the last few months. "

WTH?

Yeh OP is not the insider. User yochai has some good info. Says in the link to expect ORD to start, but probably not until 2020.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 03, 2018, 09:23:13 PM
Unless UA gets it first.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: thaber on January 03, 2018, 09:41:09 PM
I don't see how they can expect to get the business community without alliances.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 04, 2018, 12:03:03 AM
I don't see how they can expect to get the business community without alliances.

Would be great if they partner with AS.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 12:16:16 AM
Would be great if they partner with AS.
Told that to the Matmid guy. They really need to focus on partnerships, revamp the points program, and then launch a good co-brand in the US.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: David Smith on January 04, 2018, 03:28:54 AM
They're OK with codesharing with AA in Europe, but not in the states... They never really took B6 too far either.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: tavster on January 04, 2018, 04:17:47 AM
They're OK with codesharing with AA in Europe, but not in the states... They never really took B6 too far either.
I'm wondering why?
If it's a win-win for both sides then why hasn't El Al done so?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 07:06:03 AM
Unless UA gets it first.
Again it's an aircraft issue. He said they would only do the route with a 788 as he claims there isn't enough demand for a 789. And according to that same source, the 788's are only starting to get delivered in the Q3 of 2019 (after receiving all the 789's)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 08:35:28 AM
Would be great if they partner with AS.
Would still require separate awards for different metal.

They're OK with codesharing with AA in Europe, but not in the states... They never really took B6 too far either.
Can't redeem (not sure about earn) on codeshare, it's strictly LY metal.

Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 04, 2018, 08:49:34 AM

Can't redeem (not sure about earn) on codeshare, it's strictly LY metal.
When flying AA on LY codeshare, you can credit the miles to Matmid. Not sure about B6.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: tavster on January 04, 2018, 08:51:03 AM
When flying AA on LY codeshare, you can credit the miles to Matmid. Not sure about B6.
B6 too
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: mendyt on January 04, 2018, 08:53:05 AM
When flying AA on LY codeshare, you can credit the miles to Matmid. Not sure about B6.
Matmid Club members earn points on continuation flights from New York/Boston operated by jetBlue to select destinations in the USA.
B6 too
https://www.elal.com/en/FrequentFlyer/EarningPoints/Pages/JetBlue-Airlines-CodeShare.aspx
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 08:54:31 AM
On AA codeshares too, I believe (at least on connections in the US)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 04, 2018, 08:58:14 AM
On AA codeshares too, I believe (at least on connections in the US)
Europe as well.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 09:07:04 AM
So one can earn, just like with AS. But redemption on other metal isn't really possible AFAIK, so only usable for LY point to point. (I doubt they have a JFK-BOM award for example, it's two separate awards.)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 10:02:25 AM
Again it's an aircraft issue. He said they would only do the route with a 788 as he claims there isn't enough demand for a 789. And according to that same source, the 788's are only starting to get delivered in the Q3 of 2019 (after receiving all the 789's)
So put a suboptimal plane on the route for a year.
Or keep following in UA footsteps and playing catch-up.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 10:30:39 AM
So put a suboptimal plane on the route for a year.
Or keep following in UA footsteps and playing catch-up.
I hear. Maybe they don't have enough. I believe they already retired their 2 oldest 747's and added MIA. Not that putting an old 767 on the route is very good for building a reputation in a new destination. I believe that some of those don't even have seatback entertainment.... CMIIW
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 10:34:41 AM
So slow down the 747 retirements.

They reacted to UA in EWR.
They reacted to UA in SFO.
Now their plan is to wait to react to UA in ORD?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 10:42:34 AM
So slow down the 747 retirements.

They reacted to UA in EWR.
They reacted to UA in SFO.
Now their plan is to wait to react to UA in ORD?
I flew one of those real old ex-SQ 747's last March. Retirement was long overdue on that aircraft. I know LY elites (the others aren't familiar with the fleet) who would change their ticket if they found out that they were flying on that aircraft. Business wasn't even close to "bed-like". It was only killing their reputation
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 10:44:30 AM
What makes them worse than the 767s
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 10:50:58 AM
Besides, I don't see why ORD is so important for El Al. They already have 4 destinations on the east coast and 2 on the west coast in addition to YYZ. That's plenty of options for connections. It's not like they have a hub there. UA has much more to gain from it in terms of connections because they don't have nearly as many connection options as El Al. El Al partners with WS, PT, AA, B6 and VX and that gets them pretty much everywhere.
If it's just to provide nonstop for the Jewish community in ORD, perhaps they should be adding YUL too....
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 10:52:46 AM
What makes them worse than the 767s
Dunno. Never flew on one. But I believe they retrofitted the one that flies to BOS with the same business seats as the 772
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 10:53:08 AM
YUL alrrady has 2 peak season competitors.

WAS and ORD are the next biggest fish to fry. They're going to get service eventually, just a question of LY or UA.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 10:58:40 AM
YUL alrrady has 2 peak season competitors.

WAS and ORD are the next biggest fish to fry. They're going to get service eventually, just a question of LY or UA.
I agree. But I think it would be more successful with UA, as El Al already has enough capacity to fill. Maybe they should switch the BOS flight to ORD. I don't think that route was terribly successful. (It's good for us to get a decent price high season, when the NYC flights are full already)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 11:01:17 AM
SFO will also be more successful for UA due to them being first, corporate contracts, locals with status, hub connections, etc.

Though at least LY has the better J product.

Buy if LY wants to grow you need to find the opportunities.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
I flew one of those real old ex-SQ 747's last March. Retirement was long overdue on that aircraft. I know LY elites (the others aren't familiar with the fleet) who would change their ticket if they found out that they were flying on that aircraft. Business wasn't even close to "bed-like". It was only killing their reputation
What reputation is being killed?

The reputation is exactly what it is, and can't be ruined by a bad hard product (and only marginally improved with a good hard product IMHO).
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 11:59:18 AM
What reputation is being killed?

The reputation is exactly what it is, and can't be ruined by a bad hard product (and only marginally improved with a good hard product IMHO).
I wasn't talking to @ExGingi. I was saying it to the majority of us, who despite disliking El Al, notice that lately El Al has been trying to fix their airline. Argument was made based on the past couple of years, not decades (e.g. 787's, Wi-Fi, retrofitting 737's, new website, network expansion).
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 12:05:09 PM
J is improving, but my friend flew LY 787 Y and said it was a horrendous experience in every way.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 12:17:26 PM
J is improving, but my friend flew LY 787 Y and said it was a horrendous experience in every way.
I said they are "trying" to improve. Argument is wether a route is smart on El Al's part. And considering that they don't feel as hopeless as @ExGingi considers them to be, the argument of not using a disaster aircraft makes sense.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 04, 2018, 12:21:41 PM


Though at least LY has the better J product.

I mean, who would have dreamt 2 years ago that such a sentence would ever have been written on DDF. They've obviously gotten somewhere. Although, noone is saying they don't have way to go...
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 12:29:55 PM
I said they are "trying" to improve. Argument is wether a route is smart on El Al's part. And considering that they don't feel as hopeless as @ExGingi considers them to be, the argument of not using a disaster aircraft makes sense.
You know what it means when an Israeli tells you "I'll try", or "I'm trying"?

I might be the most vocal in my disdain towards LY, but I am a very open minded person, and when facts change, or if I am shown to be wrong, I change my mind.

I have stated around DDF previously that LY has a reputation of treating their elites very well.

And while I have blacklisted them personally since 2000, I have family members who flew with them, and I have even booked family members on LY.

The facts about the hard product are irrefutable (do they have WiFi on their 787s?).

The experience in Y is notorious.

Their Matmid program is of limited value (at least for North America based customers) at best.

Their attitude when things go wrong, doesn't need too much elaboration. Just try to look up what went on when they were having issues with their pilot union.

The first thing they need is a corporate culture DNA change. Once that happens (not sure if that is possible with Israelis) everything else will fall into place.

I will be delighted to be proven wrong.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 12:30:40 PM

I mean, who would have dreamt 2 years ago that such a sentence would ever have been written on DDF. They've obviously gotten somewhere. Although, noone is saying they don't have way to go...
We all hoped they wouldn't do something stupid with a brand new 787 order, but yes, kudos for not going 2-2-2.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 12:33:17 PM
We all hoped they wouldn't do something stupid with a brand new 787 order, but yes, kudos for not going 2-2-2.
They might be Israeli, but they are also Jewish, so can't be too stupid to do 2-2-2 on 787 (as RJ did!)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 04, 2018, 12:37:28 PM
They might be Israeli, but they are also Jewish, so can't be too stupid to do 2-2-2 on 787 (as RJ did!)
And CA, HU, JL, LA, LO, UA, etc.
Though those are older than LY.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: tavster on January 04, 2018, 01:00:37 PM
You know what it means when an Israeli tells you "I'll try", or "I'm trying"?

I might be the most vocal in my disdain towards LY, but I am a very open minded person, and when facts change, or if I am shown to be wrong, I change my mind.

I have stated around DDF previously that LY has a reputation of treating their elites very well.

And while I have blacklisted them personally since 2000, I have family members who flew with them, and I have even booked family members on LY.

The facts about the hard product are irrefutable (do they have WiFi on their 787s?).

The experience in Y is notorious.

Their Matmid program is of limited value (at least for North America based customers) at best.

Their attitude when things go wrong, doesn't need too much elaboration. Just try to look up what went on when they were having issues with their pilot union.

The first thing they need is a corporate culture DNA change. Once that happens (not sure if that is possible with Israelis) everything else will fall into place.

I will be delighted to be proven wrong.
IMHO, and being myself based in Israel, I think we have to keep in mind that LY bears the Israeli culture, and you will (most likely) get very poor very and attitude across most sides of the economy. Their core client base is Israeli who are used to this level of service.

I fully agree with your comment of how they treat their elites. Being my one of their TP, they will literally do anything for you (like open promo award space on almost any flight, guarantee you a J seat until the day before etc); unfortunately that's only for a happy few and most regular travelers won't get that kind of treatments
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 01:22:55 PM
IMHO, and being myself based in Israel, I think we have to keep in mind that LY bears the Israeli culture, and you will (most likely) get very poor very and attitude across most sides of the economy. Their core client base is Israeli who are used to this level of service.

It's a small world now, and you guys have a transportation minister that's determined to have an open sky policy.

It's time for a paradigm shift.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: tavster on January 04, 2018, 01:27:24 PM
It's time for a paradigm shift.
I hear you. Let's be optimistic and give it a couple of years :-)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 01:29:25 PM
I hear you. Let's be optimistic and give it a couple of years :-)
Hey. While I don't care much about it, I will be happy if it improves. Competition is good an healthy. Let's see what a new CEO brings.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 04, 2018, 02:47:46 PM
Would still require separate awards for different metal.
Can't redeem (not sure about earn) on codeshare, it's strictly LY metal.

You can connect to/from AS with any partner.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 02:53:52 PM
You can connect to/from AS with any partner.
On a single award?

What about 2 partners?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 04, 2018, 04:21:41 PM
On a single award?

What about 2 partners?

Cannot combine 2 partners on single award, though you could combine AS with any single partner.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 04, 2018, 04:23:12 PM
Cannot combine 2 partners on single award, though you could combine AS with any single partner.
OK. Good to know. Is that true also about VX?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 04, 2018, 07:31:03 PM
Is that true also about VX?

For flight on or after 04-25, yes.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 17, 2018, 10:52:10 AM
Everyone including Top Platinum members will have to pay for luggage on the new "lite" fares.
Gold members will have to pay to choose a seat on the new "lite" fares.
The UP flights will still operate from terminal 1 (no lounge access) even after it becomes regular ElAl.
Devaluation to the UP destinations.

https://www.elal.com/en/FrequentFlyer/Europe-Changes/Pages/default.aspx?utm_source=matmid&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=europechanges&utm_content=elaleng
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: moe8555 on January 17, 2018, 11:09:13 AM
Well, they'll certainly be losing my business with these changes (and I'll be cancelling my Fly Card Premium).

150 points + $60 YQ + taxes for a 35 minute flight to Cyprus that Ryan Air sells for 10 euros all in?  And the same paid flight would only net you 10-20 points back? They're insane.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: moe8555 on January 17, 2018, 03:54:29 PM
El Al will also be changing their meal service (at least for European flights, not sure about long hauls).  They mention it in a few replies to post comments on their Israel Facebook page, but no real details are given.

Fortunately for all of you, I actually took part in their survey so here's the inside scoop (remember me down the road for the HT :-) ):

They're looking at two new options instead of the traditional "full meal":

1) A lunchbox concept - You get a box with a main course, beverage poured into a cup, side spread (humus, etc.), and very modest dessert.
2) Sandwich concept - Only a sandwich, personal beverage, and modest dessert (couple of cookies)

I was asked to choose between the options vs. a traditional meal - voted down the sandwich concept every time.  I had to pick between the two new options and went with the lunchbox.

This is yet another downgrade in my eyes.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 17, 2018, 05:29:33 PM
El Al will also be changing their meal service (at least for European flights, not sure about long hauls).  They mention it in a few replies to post comments on their Israel Facebook page, but no real details are given.

Fortunately for all of you, I actually took part in their survey so here's the inside scoop (remember me down the road for the HT :-) ):

They're looking at two new options instead of the traditional "full meal":

1) A lunchbox concept - You get a box with a main course, beverage poured into a cup, side spread (humus, etc.), and very modest dessert.
2) Sandwich concept - Only a sandwich, personal beverage, and modest dessert (couple of cookies)

I was asked to choose between the options vs. a traditional meal - voted down the sandwich concept every time.  I had to pick between the two new options and went with the lunchbox.

This is yet another downgrade in my eyes.
I think that is what they serve on UP Y+
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 18, 2018, 02:51:58 PM
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 18, 2018, 07:34:06 PM
Well made video, though no passenger ever asked for these choices..
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: tavster on January 19, 2018, 01:32:16 AM
Well made video, though no passenger ever asked for these choices..
LY stated objective is to be able to compete with  low-cost airlines. So if they will be lowering ticket prices materially I assume passengers would care. However I doubt this will happen
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: chff on January 19, 2018, 07:35:21 AM
LY stated objective is to be able to compete with  low-cost airlines. So if they will be lowering ticket prices materially I assume passengers would care. However I doubt this will happen
DDF policy to bash Elal, but they are not competing with LCC, they are competing with the legacy as well. Did I miss the news that LH killed their fare Families?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Solma on January 20, 2018, 06:41:30 PM
So put a suboptimal plane on the route for a year.
Or keep following in UA footsteps and playing catch-up.

Looks like UA is ahead of the game and switching the SFO TLV route to a 77W starting May 2018.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 20, 2018, 06:56:45 PM
Looks like UA is ahead of the game and switching the SFO TLV route to a 77W starting May 2018.
Are they getting more deliveries, or will this be compromising on the EWR route?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 20, 2018, 06:58:30 PM
Looks like UA is ahead of the game and switching the SFO TLV route to a 77W starting May 2018.
As predicted :)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 20, 2018, 07:05:45 PM
As predicted :)
You predicted that they would change aircraft to the new Polaris seat before El Al starts the route?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Yaalili on January 20, 2018, 07:06:13 PM
Looks like UA is ahead of the game and switching the SFO TLV route to a 77W starting May 2018.

Wow. This will be interesting to watch. Starting date is 05-23.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 20, 2018, 07:08:23 PM
This is great for consumers. Capacity will now be close to triple?? by years end
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 20, 2018, 07:14:13 PM
You predicted that they would change aircraft to the new Polaris seat before El Al starts the route?
Go read the post.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on January 20, 2018, 08:30:43 PM
I think United will add a 787 for EWR-TLV, those flights are jam-packed even in the winter!
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: ExGingi on January 20, 2018, 08:41:36 PM
Go read the post.

Quote
Then later this year El Al plans on adding its 787-9 which has 32 business class seats, 28 premium economy seats, and 222 unpremium economy seats.

Is that the official name of LY cattle class?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Solma on January 21, 2018, 12:00:34 AM
As predicted :)

You probably are their consultant  ;)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Solma on January 21, 2018, 12:53:32 AM
You probably are their consultant  ;)

And that's how you received GS status.  ;) ;)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 27, 2018, 05:14:58 PM
UA switches back to the 788 Oct 28. I'm starting to wonder if the change to 77W was even targeted against El Al, or it's just to add capacity for the high season. If it's meant to scare LY, shouldn't they have the 77W on schedule for when El Al plans to launch the route in Q4, instead of switching back to the inferior product just then?
(Unless they're afraid that due to LY's adding flights they'll be flying empty 77W's and may not be worth the fight?)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: Dan on January 27, 2018, 07:08:53 PM
UA switches back to the 788 Oct 28. I'm starting to wonder if the change to 77W was even targeted against El Al, or it's just to add capacity for the high season. If it's meant to scare LY, shouldn't they have the 77W on schedule for when El Al plans to launch the route in Q4, instead of switching back to the inferior product just then?
(Unless they're afraid that due to LY's adding flights they'll be flying empty 77W's and may not be worth the fight?)
Really bizarre.
If the 77W was for the high season, then why did they flood the market with award space for the entire high season?
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 27, 2018, 07:21:24 PM
Really bizarre.
If the 77W was for the high season, then why did they flood the market with award space for the entire high season?
Dunno. But how do you explain them switching back on Oct 28? (perhaps the award space was a mistake? similar to what US Airways had a few years ago)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 30, 2018, 06:56:54 AM
http://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2018/01/29/el-al-sfo-tel-aviv-flight/
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: SearchGuy on January 31, 2018, 11:12:33 AM
On sale now $1399, cheaper than United's $1599
https://www.elal.com/en/USA/Deals/Pages/SFO-New-0118.aspx
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on January 31, 2018, 11:21:00 AM
On sale now $1399, cheaper than United's $1599
https://www.elal.com/en/USA/Deals/Pages/SFO-New-0118.aspx
Probably won't be more than a few hours until United matches
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: SearchGuy on January 31, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
Probably won't be more than a few hours until United matches
United lost their monopoly there
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: chff on January 31, 2018, 09:49:00 PM
United lost their monopoly there

SFO-TLV still an exception market on the high-com contract (2% com vs ??%)
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: chff on February 01, 2018, 07:27:50 AM


Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on February 01, 2018, 07:31:01 AM
On sale now $1399
$1199 from TLV
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on February 01, 2018, 07:41:04 AM
Interesting, Business class and PE are blocked out for the inaugural flight in both directions. Only economy on sale. Who can they be saving the seats for...?
 18NOV  SUN   TLV/Z2     SFO/PST-10                           
1LY       9 C0 I0 D0 Z0 TLVSFO 1250A  530A 789 BD 0 TQS DCA /E 
            J0 R0 X0 W0 Q0 B0 P0 Y9 S9 M9 K9 V9 L9 H9 N9 G9 O 
            U0 E0                                               
 18NOV  SUN   SFO/PST     TLV/10                               
1LY   10 C0 I0 D0 SFOTLV      600P  540P1 789 BD 0 TQS DCA /E 
         Z0 J0 R0 X0 W0 Q0 B0 P0 Y9 S9 M9 K9 V9 L9 H9 N9 G9 O9 
         U0 E9                                                 
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: travel agent on February 01, 2018, 08:31:59 AM
they need staff to fly to SFO, in order to operate the first return flight.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on February 01, 2018, 08:56:55 AM
they need staff to fly to SFO, in order to operate the first return flight.
They're not blocking 60 seats for that
And you didn't explain why the return is blocked...
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on February 01, 2018, 09:44:19 AM
They're not blocking 60 seats for that
And you didn't explain why the return is blocked...
And they usually would give economy seats to staff.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: travel agent on February 01, 2018, 09:54:13 AM
And they usually would give economy seats to staff.

not in this case, where they need to operate the return flight.
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on February 01, 2018, 10:01:09 AM
not in this case, where they need to operate the return flight.
And you didn't explain why the return is blocked...
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: travel agent on February 01, 2018, 10:36:13 AM
no idea
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: shapsam on February 15, 2018, 12:36:50 PM
LY pushes off UP devaluation, can redeem awards at the old rates until 10/14 (as oppose to 04/30).

"With regard to redeeming points by issuing bonus tickets, Matmid members are entitled to use their rights according to the current price for UP flight bonus tickets, until October 14, 2018."
http://www.flyup.com/en/FrequentFlyers/FrequentFlyersInfo/Pages/UsePoint-0118.aspx
Title: Re: El-al dropping UP, adding new seating options, and flying direct to San Fran!!!
Post by: yandmk on July 26, 2018, 01:57:17 PM
Starting Oct 28, Berlin (besides Thurs morning) and KBP (besides Fri) will be having business class once again. Departures will still be from terminal 1, so there's no King David Lounge access. R class revenue starts at $769 RT to Berlin and $779 RT to KBP. No minimum stay required.