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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 12:18:10 PM

Title: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 12:18:10 PM
In the past decade, the divorce rate in our community has risen several times over.

This is broadly broken down into 3 groups (in decreasing prevalence)
1- Newly weds. 20s. 0-2.7 years of marriage
2- People who have been married for decades. 50s-60s. children are now teens/out of house
3- Some group in between.

Why is this happening?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2018, 12:23:33 PM
In the past decade, the divorce rate in our community has risen several times over.

This is broadly broken down into 3 groups (in decreasing prevalence)
1- Newly weds. 20s. 0-2.7 years of marriage
2- People who have been married for decades. 50s-60s. children are now teens/out of house
3- Some group in between.

Why is this happening?

2.7 years of marriage seems kind of precise. What happens if you run the numbers with 2.8?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: @Yehuda on January 11, 2018, 12:30:29 PM
Is there any age not covered by the 3 groups?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 12:36:10 PM
In the past decade, the divorce rate in our community has risen several times over.
Source?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: thaber on January 11, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
In the past decade, the divorce rate in our community has risen several times over.

This is broadly broken down into 3 groups (in decreasing prevalence)
1- Newly weds. 20s. 0-2.7 years of marriage
2- People who have been married for decades. 50s-60s. children are now teens/out of house
3- Some group in between.

Why is this happening?
The same community where no one davens?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 12:56:25 PM
Source?
This (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=89668.msg1870185#msg1870185).
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: whYME on January 11, 2018, 12:56:47 PM
Why is this happening?
Probably because nobody davens anymore.

ht: thaber (http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=89668.msg1870219#msg1870219)
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 12:58:30 PM
Maybe some are understanding you don't need to stay in an abusive relationship?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 12:59:13 PM
Are all of you actually contesting this empirical observation, or just want a data set to back it up?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 12:59:38 PM
Because women are nagging their husbands to daven?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 01:00:23 PM
Are all of you actually contesting this empirical observation, or just want a data set to back it up?
I'd like to see data.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:01:04 PM
Are all of you actually contesting this empirical observation, or just want a data set to back it up?
I am not contesting anything. If it isn't happening in your community now it soon will be.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 11, 2018, 01:01:31 PM
Unrealistic expectations.
Long sheitels.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: shapsam on January 11, 2018, 01:02:21 PM
Source?
+1 There may be a lot of divorces but there's also much more marriages.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 01:02:52 PM
I'd like to see data.

I'd like to see it too; unfortunately, there is no good data besides 1-2 studies by the OU.

Do you disagree with this empirically though? From my handful (and Ill try not to exaggerate, so Ill say 4), of conversations with divorce attorneys and Rabbanim, this seems to be true.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:03:41 PM
Unrealistic expectations.
Long sheitels.
Not able to drive
Shaved heads
Walking on the other side of the street
Not allowed to leave the house
And the list can go on and on  :)
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:04:48 PM
There may be a lot of divorces but there's also much more marriages.
Law of Probabilities?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 01:04:54 PM
Shaved heads
I thought you were into that?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:05:38 PM
I thought you were into that?
Yes but by choice not forced.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 11, 2018, 01:06:14 PM


Women drive
 Non Shaved heads
Walking on the sane side of the street as opposite gender.
 Not staying in the house.
And the list can go on and on  :)
Ftfy
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: whYME on January 11, 2018, 01:07:44 PM
this empirical observation
I doubt you're using "empirical" properly here.

CMIIW but I don't think "empirical observation" is the correct term for an observation that "there seem to be many more now."
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 01:08:06 PM
Yes but by choice not forced.
Who's being forced?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 01:09:02 PM
I doubt you're using "empirical" properly here.

CMIIW but I don't think "empirical observation" is the correct term for an observation that "there seem to be many more now."
Why are you casting English interpretation on regular english posts?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 01:12:53 PM
Who's being forced?
Communities that won't take kids into school if the mother has hair?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 01:21:36 PM
Communities that won't take kids into school if the mother has hair?
And you think that a majority of women in those communities feel forced?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 01:25:55 PM
And you think that a majority of women in those communities feel forced?
Never said that, I don't have a clue.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 01:29:50 PM
Porn.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 01:30:05 PM
Let me ask a crazy question. Is this so bad? What's more important, staying married or being happy? As Louis CK once said "no good marriage has ever ended in divorce."
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 01:30:24 PM
Never said that, I don't have a clue.
Do you feel forced to grow a beard? Would you feel forced if you lived in a community that wouldn't accept your children if you "touched" your beard?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 01:32:43 PM
And you think that a majority of women in those communities feel forced?
This is such a loaded question. When you grow up with certain social norms and values driven into you by everyone around you, you come to think of your actions as voluntary, but are they? It's so complex. It's like the scientologists who willingly go in the "hole." If you ask them, they will tell you they are there voluntarily, but it's all brainwashed BS.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 01:34:36 PM
Let me ask a crazy question. Is this so bad? What's more important, staying married or being happy? As Louis CK once said "no good marriage has ever ended in divorce."

No, its not bad at all.

But I'm not sure why there isnt a broader discussion of this in general. I feel like theres discussion ad neausum about a shiddiuch crisis but not about a divorce endemic; and the focus on the former may be causing the latter. The question is if people are being pressured into marriages they should never be in, in the first place.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dan on January 11, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
Do you feel forced to grow a beard? Would you feel forced if you lived in a community that wouldn't accept your children if you "touched" your beard?
No.
Yes.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 11, 2018, 01:35:51 PM
Let me ask a crazy question. Is this so bad? What's more important, staying married or being happy? As Louis CK once said "no good marriage has ever ended in divorce."
So rephrase the ops question: "why are more people unhappy in their marriage?"
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:38:41 PM
What's more important, staying married or being happy?
To the community it would be staying married.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: moko on January 11, 2018, 01:39:46 PM
This is such a loaded question. When you grow up with certain social norms and values driven into you by everyone around you, you come to think of your actions as voluntary, but are they? It's so complex. It's like the scientologists who willingly go in the "hole." If you ask them, they will tell you they are there voluntarily, but it's all brainwashed BS.
SO all societal values are the result of "brainwashing"?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: smart man on January 11, 2018, 01:40:39 PM
Let me ask a crazy question. Is this so bad? What's more important, staying married or being happy? As Louis CK once said "no good marriage has ever ended in divorce."
Divorces are actually a good thing when it has to be done. It's sad that there's so many marriages that fall through.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:42:52 PM
The question is if people are being pressured into marriages they should never be in, in the first place.
I am sure teens are more than capable to make this lifelong decision. Just remember you are not allowed to drink before, during or after the decision.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: smart man on January 11, 2018, 01:44:22 PM
I am sure teens are more than capable to make this lifelong decision. Just remember you are not allowed to drink before, during or after the decision.
Not even a l'chaim? ;)
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 01:46:42 PM
Not even a l'chaim? ;)
Use grape juice.  :P
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 02:00:10 PM
SO all societal values are the result of "brainwashing"?
If you internalize it to the point where you don't feel like you have a "choice" but to live a certain way then yes, to some extent...
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 02:17:19 PM
Porn.
...or lack of?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2018, 02:18:38 PM
Let me ask a crazy question. Is this so bad? What's more important, staying married or being happy? As Louis CK once said "no good marriage has ever ended in divorce."
What about the children? It may be better for them to have parents married - not so happily.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: mmgfarb on January 11, 2018, 02:27:22 PM
What about the children? It may be better for them to have parents married - not so happily.
Not necessarily, it may be way better off for the kids to grow up with two loving, albeit separated, parents, than to grow up in a house where the parents hate each other.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 02:30:55 PM
In the past decade, the divorce rate in our community has risen several times over.

This is broadly broken down into 3 groups (in decreasing prevalence)
1- Newly weds. 20s. 0-2.7 years of marriage
2- People who have been married for decades. 50s-60s. children are now teens/out of house
3- Some group in between.

Why is this happening?
Without going into a discussion of whether this is fact or not, our generation is accustomed to quick easy solutions.

For example, how many people do you know that were diagnosed with pre-diabetes or actual type 2 diabetes that will take the effort to make life changes, rather than just use pills?

Marriage requires work!

and despite
Not necessarily, it may be way better off for the kids to grow up with two loving, albeit separated, parents, than to grow up in a house where the parents hate each other.

If indeed the parents put in sincere work and effort, even if not always a peaceful household, it is better than divorced parents.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 02:32:45 PM
Without going into a discussion of whether this is fact or not, our generation is accustomed to quick easy solutions.

For example, how many people do you know that were diagnosed with pre-diabetes or actual type 2 diabetes that will take the effort to make life changes, rather than just use pills?

Marriage requires work!

and despite
If indeed the parents put in sincere work and effort, even if not always a peaceful household, it is better than divorced parents.
Work, what's that grandpa. Signed, millennial
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: avromie7 on January 11, 2018, 02:35:46 PM
Porn.
Definitely a huge part of the problem.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: mmgfarb on January 11, 2018, 02:40:23 PM
If indeed the parents put in sincere work and effort, even if not always a peaceful household, it is better than divorced parents.
That's why I said "may" it obviously depends on the parents.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: aygart on January 11, 2018, 02:43:32 PM
Not necessarily, it may be way better off for the kids to grow up with two loving, albeit separated, parents, than to grow up in a house where the parents hate each other.
Maybe you should find the child who grew up that way and see if they agree. Not sure you will find anyone to ask.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dawie on January 11, 2018, 02:44:10 PM
http://matzav.com/matzav-shmooze-are-we-creating-two-different-products/

this?


Not
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2018, 02:46:24 PM
http://matzav.com/matzav-shmooze-are-we-creating-two-different-products/

this?


Not


interesting
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: mmgfarb on January 11, 2018, 02:47:50 PM
Maybe you should find the child who grew up that way and see if they agree. Not sure you will find anyone to ask.
Find the children who grew up in homes where the parents should have divorced and didn't, instead subjecting their children to years of emotional abuse? Yea, it's hard to find those because they don't talk about it much.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: MC on January 11, 2018, 02:48:05 PM
http://matzav.com/matzav-shmooze-are-we-creating-two-different-products/

this?


Not

Wow. Could there be a less informative article?
#chandlerout
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 02:48:30 PM
If indeed the parents put in sincere work and effort, even if not always a peaceful household, it is better than divorced parents.
Not when it is an abusive situation.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 02:52:00 PM
I am sure teens are more than capable to make this lifelong decision. Just remember you are not allowed to drink before, during or after the decision.

From the outside, its often hard to discern the subsects within the larger group. I personally am not referring to the hassidic community which dates <5 times and are still teens; Im just not really familiar with the marriage/divorce dynamics there.

Im referring to the part of the community that gets married bet 22-25, and dates 6-12 weeks. They're not teens. I am not saying theyre mature or that they date long enough. Thats basically what im getting at here:


I feel like theres discussion ad neausum about a shiddiuch crisis but not about a divorce endemic; and the focus on the former may be causing the latter. The question is if people are being pressured into marriages they should never be in, in the first place.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 02:55:01 PM
What about the children? It may be better for them to have parents married - not so happily.

Yes, hence group 2. Its also sad.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: shapsam on January 11, 2018, 02:57:07 PM
Not when it is an abusive situation.
95% of the divorces in "the community" are not abusive situations.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: beeweegee on January 11, 2018, 03:01:15 PM
...or lack of?
Care to explain...?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: aygart on January 11, 2018, 03:02:13 PM
Find the children who grew up in homes where the parents should have divorced and didn't, instead subjecting their children to years of emotional abuse? Yea, it's hard to find those because they don't talk about it much.
These
kids to grow up with two loving, albeit separated, parents,
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: HBS on January 11, 2018, 03:04:56 PM
Maybe they should check out this
https://theshmuz.com/marriage-seminar/
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Yammer on January 11, 2018, 03:05:40 PM


Without going into a discussion of whether this is fact or not, our generation is accustomed to quick easy solutions.

Marriage requires work!

Spot on.


interesting

That an whole article was written that makes no sense? ( Forget about the fact that there isn't a single example )

Wow. Could there be a less informative article?
#chandlerout

Probably the previous article
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on January 11, 2018, 03:11:02 PM
http://matzav.com/matzav-shmooze-are-we-creating-two-different-products/

this?


Not
Not at all an issue for me. My boys' and girls' education is in total sync.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Yammer on January 11, 2018, 03:17:39 PM
Maybe they should check out this
https://theshmuz.com/marriage-seminar/
Our parents and grandparents didn't have that information either.

We changed and therefore may need it
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: tzifanya54 on January 11, 2018, 03:23:01 PM
Very loaded topics in JS these days....
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: mmgfarb on January 11, 2018, 03:30:05 PM
These
And how much worse would it have been if the parents had stayed married?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2018, 03:33:31 PM
Not necessarily, it may be way better off for the kids to grow up with two loving, albeit separated, parents, than to grow up in a house where the parents hate each other.
True. That's why I wrote that it "may" be better. פעמים כן פעמים לא
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Baruch on January 11, 2018, 03:35:18 PM
True. That's why I wrote that it "may" be better. פעמים כן פעמים לא
That's why I said "may" it obviously depends on the parents.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: moko on January 11, 2018, 03:37:28 PM
If you internalize it to the point where you don't feel like you have a "choice" but to live a certain way then yes, to some extent...
so if someone feels like eating kosher is the only way of life for himself and would never entertain not eating kosher that's a result of brainwashing as opposed to education? How about smoking?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: aygart on January 11, 2018, 03:40:13 PM
And how much worse would it have been if the parents had stayed married?
If you can find one ask them.

R' Goldscmidt likes to quote the talmid who wrote 2+2=0 (or maybe it was 1+1=0, sorry @Achas Veachas )
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: iAm on January 11, 2018, 03:40:20 PM
so if someone feels like eating kosher is the only way of life for himself and would never entertain not eating kosher that's a result of brainwashing as opposed to education? How about smoking?

Its not brainwashing. Its Determinism.

Determinism is the philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do. The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational because complete knowledge of any given situation assures that unerring knowledge of its future is also possible.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 03:41:30 PM
http://matzav.com/matzav-shmooze-are-we-creating-two-different-products/

this?


Not
Wish the shadchan was more specific about the differences
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: moko on January 11, 2018, 03:45:00 PM
Its not brainwashing. Its Determinism.

Determinism is the philosophical theory that all events, including moral choices, are completely determined by previously existing causes. Determinism is usually understood to preclude free will because it entails that humans cannot act otherwise than they do. The theory holds that the universe is utterly rational because complete knowledge of any given situation assures that unerring knowledge of its future is also possible.
I think many would argue that what you just called brainwashing is in fact determinism.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 03:45:55 PM
95% of the divorces in "the community" are not abusive situations.
Unfortunately they would be a very hard figure to come up with.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 03:47:13 PM
Care to explain...?
I don't think you really want me to.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 03:49:58 PM
so if someone feels like eating kosher is the only way of life for himself and would never entertain not eating kosher that's a result of brainwashing as opposed to education? How about smoking?
So this back and forth started with women shaving their heads and CM/Dan referring to this as forced and I agreed with that. As Dan mentioned, if a school won't accept your kids unless you do x, that is basically forcing them to do X. Likewise, if you will ostracize someone for not doing something from the community, you are forcing them to live a certain lifestyle.
I'm not talking about someone shaving their head because it's what they want to do for themselves. Or eat kosher or smoke. In that case they are making a lifestyle choice without considering the opinions of others.
I'm saying there are societal influences you can't ignore. Once other people's opinions affect your choices, you aren't operating at 100% free will.
Maybe brainwash is the wrong word.
If we label and ostracize people who don't act a certain way, we are collectively influencing them to act how we want.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Redbull3 on January 11, 2018, 03:55:49 PM
BTW I only used the term brainwashing in reference to scientologists who believe they are in the hole voluntarily. Not to include anyone who ever makes any decision with outside influence ever.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 03:56:53 PM
I'm saying there are societal influences you can't ignore. Once other people's opinions affect your choices, you aren't operating at 100% free will.
This is a big reason individuals stay married when they shouldn't.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: beeweegee on January 11, 2018, 03:58:01 PM
I don't think you really want me to.
That's what I was afraid of.

I guess my question then is whether or not you really believe that. There definitely are those who do, just curious where you fall.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dawie on January 11, 2018, 03:58:49 PM
Without going into a discussion of whether this is fact or not, our generation is accustomed to quick easy solutions.

Marriage requires work!
Bingo
Also the entitlement
the ME generation
The quick fix generation
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 03:59:24 PM
That's what I was afraid of.
Don't shoot the messenger.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: henche on January 11, 2018, 04:06:00 PM
Bingo
Also the entitlement
the ME generation
The quick fix generation

the labeling generation
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: beeweegee on January 11, 2018, 04:22:37 PM
Don't shoot the messenger.
Fair enough. But please see the edit to my post - is this something you truly believe?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 11, 2018, 04:39:33 PM
Fair enough. But please see the edit to my post - is this something you truly believe?
No.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Dawie on January 11, 2018, 04:40:11 PM
the labeling generation
the hencheization of the generation
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Mordyk on January 11, 2018, 04:43:32 PM
a relative of mine that got divorced after three children said he wanted to write a book about not getting divorced for the sake of the children. nothing with the community. he has way to many points to start naming them. im just pointing out the opinion of someone that went through divorce
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: churnbabychurn on January 11, 2018, 04:44:00 PM
Bingo
Also the entitlement
the ME generation
The quick fix generation
Yup, a bunch of self centered selfish spoiled children. That's all it is.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: chevron on January 11, 2018, 05:20:57 PM
porn, infidelity
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: gingyguy on January 11, 2018, 05:29:17 PM
if people would just slow down on making new topics in JS we would be able to solve some of these issues. Each time a new topic is started the old issues are pushed to a back burner.(until someone brings up a particularly sharp quote)
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: chevron on January 11, 2018, 05:38:41 PM
if people would just slow down on making new topics in JS we would be able to solve some of these issues. Each time a new topic is started the old issues are pushed to a back burner.(until someone brings up a particularly sharp quote)

or each topic that goes off course....
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: aygart on January 11, 2018, 05:53:37 PM
if people would just slow down on making new topics in JS we would be able to solve some of these issues. Each time a new topic is started the old issues are pushed to a back burner.(until someone brings up a particularly sharp quote)
All that we are missing for a perfect world is for JS discussions to be completed.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 11, 2018, 06:11:51 PM
the labeling generation
The irreverent generation.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: DrDanny on January 12, 2018, 06:02:25 AM
Without responding subjectively to any individual situation.
I think that there was once more social pressure to stay married then there currently is, which can potentially snowball this issue as many people who have perfectly happy marriages may have gotten divorced at some point earlier in the marriage when things were more difficult had there been no social pressure to keep going.
That's why it's rising in my opinion.
Not to say that this social pressure is an entirely good thing there are some very unhealthy marriages that aren't good for either  spouse or the kids that people stay in due to social pressures.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: David Smith on January 12, 2018, 06:26:20 AM
Let me ask a crazy question. Is this so bad? What's more important, staying married or being happy? As Louis CK once said "no good marriage has ever ended in divorce."
There's no such thing as a blissful marriage that never hits rough patches or a couple that never disagrees. It's a myth, just like love on first sight is. Not having the ability, maturity, or willpower to work on a relationship is a bad thing, yes.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: David Smith on January 12, 2018, 06:32:31 AM
I am sure teens are more than capable to make this lifelong decision. Just remember you are not allowed to drink before, during or after the decision.

From the outside, its often hard to discern the subsects within the larger group. I personally am not referring to the hassidic community which dates <5 times and are still teens; Im just not really familiar with the marriage/divorce dynamics there.

Im referring to the part of the community that gets married bet 22-25, and dates 6-12 weeks. They're not teens. I am not saying theyre mature or that they date long enough. Thats basically what im getting at here:
I guess a bigger question would be why our kids are turning out so immature and out of touch with life's real values and challenges.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: moko on January 12, 2018, 07:17:12 AM
I guess a bigger question would be why our kids are turning out so immature and out of touch with life's real values and challenges.
millennials??
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 12, 2018, 07:19:55 AM
I guess a bigger question would be why our kids are turning out so immature and out of touch with life's real values and challenges.
I don't see that as happening. My kids have a better grasp what is going on in the real world than I did at their age. Probably a direct result of them being exposed to it more.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 07:22:20 AM
I don't see that as happening. My kids have a better grasp what is going on in the real world than I did at their age. Probably a direct result of them being exposed to it more.
Better grasp doesnt necessarily mean resiliancy, maturity and an ability to cope with stress.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 12, 2018, 07:25:43 AM
Better grasp doesnt necessarily mean resiliancy, maturity and an ability to cope with stress.
It puts you in a better position to solve the issue if you understand it.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 07:32:49 AM
It puts you in a better position to solve the issue if you understand it.
I don't see any evidence to back that up.  Life's challenges are not science experiments where information is key, yes, having a good comprehension of people and challenges can help but without the emotional maturity and resiliency its pretty worthless if not  harmful.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: David Smith on January 12, 2018, 07:35:22 AM
Better grasp doesnt necessarily mean resiliancy, maturity and an ability to cope with stress.
Exercise does help prepare for a marathon.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 12, 2018, 07:39:54 AM
I don't see any evidence to back that up. 
You want evidence that understating a problem will put you in a better position to solve it?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 07:40:46 AM
Exercise does help prepare for a marathon.
True, but understanding a situation  and being able to cope with it are two very diffrent skills. Interrelated? yes,  but not interchangeable. Using your example, knowing all the techniques and having a keen understanding of the physical challenge neccesary to run a marathon is great if you also practice actualy running the marathon. Without the actual skills your knowledge and understanding is useless, unless you want to write a book.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 07:42:08 AM
You want evidence that understating a problem will put you in a better position to solve it?
Did you read the rest of my post?
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 12, 2018, 07:45:25 AM
Did you read the rest of my post?
Yes and I am just stating understanding the problem is a big help not the answer. Kids today understand more what is going on in the real world than I did.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 07:47:30 AM
Yes and I am just stating understanding the problem is a big help not the answer. Kids today understand more what is going on in the real world than I did.
And I dont think that alone helps them with their own challenges and interpersonal relationships.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: aygart on January 12, 2018, 07:50:17 AM
Before talking about how today's kids are whatever think back on your mind what your parents or grandparents thought when you were that age.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 12, 2018, 07:55:48 AM
And I dont think that alone helps them with their own challenges and interpersonal relationships.
Just because you understand a problem doesn't mean you are capable of solving it but it sure does help.

There is all type of help today to save your marriage. Many people need this help. This theory that if you just work at it and everything will work out is not the answer.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on January 12, 2018, 07:57:26 AM
Before talking about how today's kids are whatever think back on your mind what your parents or grandparents thought when you were that age.
"They will find out one day."
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 07:59:31 AM
Before talking about how today's kids are whatever think back on your mind what your parents or grandparents thought when you were that age.
Agree.
In fact I argue that kids today are more resilient than ever before, after all they were raised by our (inept) generation.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Sport on January 12, 2018, 08:00:34 AM


Just because you understand a problem doesn't mean you are capable of solving it but it sure does help.

There is all type of help today to save your marriage. Many people need this help. This theory that if you just work at it and everything will work out is not the answer.

Who saying to just work at it?
Yes, there are more resources today than ever before, and thats great.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: hvaces42 on January 13, 2018, 05:40:44 PM
Bingo
Also the entitlement
the ME generation
The quick fix generation
The disposable generation.
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: joe1234 on January 13, 2018, 06:39:50 PM
Yes and I am just stating understanding the problem is a big help not the answer. Kids today understand more what is going on in the real world than I do.
FTFY :P
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: shwarmabob on January 16, 2018, 02:52:40 PM
https://jewishaction.com/life-ordeals/children-after-divorce/
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: ExGingi on September 13, 2019, 02:15:12 PM
Is there any age not covered by the 3 groups?
Under 20
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Yonah on September 13, 2019, 03:02:06 PM
As usual late to the party. My own $0.03:

1. First of all divorce has become more acceptable so people are not as reluctant to end a bad marriage.
2. I wonder (but have no real evidence to prove it) if kids who change their levels of frumkeit post HS and then change back to where they were has anything to do with it?
3. IMVHO - I think that it's the result of shidduch mishegoss gone to far.

#1 is pretty straightforward, please let me elaborate on #2 and #3:

#2 - imagine this, a young MO boy goes to Yeshiva in Israel, and as a result, he becomes much more religious. Instead of going to college, he spends a few more years in Yeshiva. They find him a shidduch. He gets married and starts a family. But after a few years he grows disdainful of the community he's in. He decides that he doesn't want this particular lifestyle anymore - he still wants to be frum, just go back to his modern roots. (Again, I have no evidence to prove it, short of one or two friends that this happened to - essentially they wanted a different level of frumkeit than their spouse)

#3 - Take what I say with a grain of salt because I don't live in the shidduch world. But from the few friends I have that are within it, I hear that people are so concerned they leave out things that should probably be raised BEFORE you get married. Some examples of stories that I heard:

- A young woman who got divorced from her husband after discovered that he had been hiding that he was taking drugs for a psychotic condition
- A teenager who had a certain medical condition that was manageable by drugs, but better resolved with a surgical procedure. When his parents were told by a doctor that he should have the procedure they refused to do it because they were worried it would mess up both his and his siblings shidduch chances when word got out that he did it.

I realize that there are two isolated incidents, but I can only imagine they come from a place of fear. I also imagine that there is a chain effect that impacts a 'p'gam' on the whole family if one of them has some sort of 'psul' vis-a-vis the shidduch world. Given that, it's also possible, that due to some familial pressure. Someone might endure a bad marriage for a few years until their youngest sibling gets married off so that their divorce won't impact their little brother or sisters shidduch chances.

Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: mercaz1 on September 13, 2019, 03:12:59 PM
both of those stories can easily happen in the non-shidduch as well
Title: Re: Why is our divorce rate rising drastically?
Post by: Yonah on September 13, 2019, 03:24:55 PM
both of those stories can easily happen in the non-shidduch as well

They most certainly do. Again, I don't have evidence of the magnitude of either. But it would seem to me that more people would be inclined to hide these sort of things in the shidduch world. (I could be very wrong).

While I imagine that in the non-shidduch world people may not be so forthcoming about these same things, but revealing them won't impact your siblings as much as I imagine it would in the shidduch world.