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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 03:20:20 PM

Title: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 03:20:20 PM
High school in FL.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 14, 2018, 03:22:09 PM
https://wsvn.com/news/local/bso-active-shooter-at-marjory-stoneman-douglas-high-school-at-least-20-injured/
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 04:14:45 PM
When are we going to wake up as a country? How many more most die?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yhaller14 on February 14, 2018, 04:37:43 PM
When are we going to wake up as a country? How many more most die?
Before exactly what happens?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 04:39:50 PM
Before exactly what happens?
This becomes and everyday thing. Are we so closed minded we cant try things to curb this problem?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: TimT on February 14, 2018, 04:41:23 PM
This becomes and everyday thing. Are we so closed minded we cant try things to curb this problem?
Ētry thingsĒ ? Please do tell
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 04:44:12 PM
Please do tell
Tell what? You heard it all a hundred times.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 14, 2018, 04:51:03 PM
This becomes and everyday thing. Are we so closed minded we cant try things to curb this problem?
People have become numb to it. I don't think there's any solution out there.
Title: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 14, 2018, 04:52:38 PM
People have become numb to it. I don't think there's any solution out there.
Banning semi automatics would be a nice start
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 04:52:53 PM
People have become numb to it. I don't think there's any solution out there.
How would you know unless you try?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 04:54:51 PM
How would you know unless you try?
up to 7 dead . any reports on weapon ?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 04:55:40 PM
up to 7 dead . any reports on weapon ?
Not that I have seen.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 04:57:11 PM
When are we going to wake up as a country? How many more most die?
We should require teachers to carry.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:00:26 PM
We should require teachers to carry.
Why not just paint targets on them. You should think before posting reckless ideas.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:01:53 PM
Why not just paint targets on them.
Huh??
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 14, 2018, 05:03:06 PM
How would you know unless you try?
Good luck getting a consensus on that 3rd rail.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 14, 2018, 05:03:21 PM
up to 7 dead . any reports on weapon ?
Now reports of 14 dead. Sounds like an automatic on the video
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:04:34 PM
Huh??
Take this case. It seems he was an ex-student. If he knew the teacher had a gun who do you think he is going to shoot first?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:05:07 PM
Now reports of 14 dead. Sounds like an automatic on the video
Auto as in semi or full?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:10:08 PM
Take this case. It seems he was an ex-student. If he knew the teacher had a gun who do you think he is going to shoot first?
What if we just allow teachers to have guns, so he wouldn't go in knowing that there's no one to stop him, and if he still decided to go in, there would be plenty of people to stop him. There's a reason almost all mass shootings happen in gun free zones.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 05:12:15 PM
What if we just allow teachers to have guns, so he wouldn't go in knowing that there's no one to stop him, and if he still decided to go in, there would be plenty of people to stop him. There's a reason almost all mass shootings happen in gun free zones.

Are you going to train all of the teachers so that that they don't kill more kids than the perp?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:19:58 PM
What if we just allow teachers to have guns, so he wouldn't go in knowing that there's no one to stop him, and if he still decided to go in, there would be plenty of people to stop him. There's a reason almost all mass shootings happen in gun free zones.
Your answer is more guns to stop killings by guns. Just step back and think about this for a minute.

On FOX they are going through school shootings. The list is going on and on. 25 since Columbine.

Are you going to wait until it happens in your own backyard until you call for action? 
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:20:53 PM
Are you going to train all of the teachers so that that they don't kill more kids than the perp?
Is that why guns aren't allowed in schools? In case there's a mass shooter, if someone else has a gun they may accidentally shoot an innocent person?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:23:13 PM
Your answer is more guns to stop killings by guns. Just step back and think about this for a minute.

On FOX they are going through school shootings. The list is going on and on. 25 since Columbine.

Are you going to wait until it happens in your own backyard until you call for action?
Why are schools such a target of deadly shootings? They are magnets for deranged murderers because they know they will go unopposed because no one else will have a gun to stop them, and when they do show up at a school, it's much deadlier because there's no one to stop them.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 14, 2018, 05:24:45 PM
Your answer is more guns to stop killings by guns. Just step back and think about this for a minute.

On FOX they are going through school shootings. The list is going on and on. 25 since Columbine.

Are you going to wait until it happens in your own backyard until you call for action? 
I'd be more worried about a Mumbai Nariman House style attack on a Jewish school or shul. And the answer to that probably is armed staff and tighter security.

But that's a pretty different scenario than these mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:25:05 PM
Is that why guns aren't allowed in schools? In case there's a mass shooter, if someone else has a gun they may accidentally shoot an innocent person?
I am sure that is one of the reasons. Some parents are saying there is an armed officer at the school at times.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:26:02 PM
I'd be more worried about a Mumbai Nariman House style attack on a Jewish school or shul. And the answer to that probably is armed staff and tighter security.
I have no problem with armed security.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:29:52 PM
I am sure that is one of the reasons. Some parents are saying there is an armed officer at the school at times.
What's 1 officer at the front desk of a huge school building going to do to stop someone from walking into the back of the building and shooting up a few classrooms before the officer even knows anything happened, VS the odds that the teacher in the first classroom he goes into or at least 1 or 2 in the surrounding few classrooms have guns to stop him. In a mass shooting incident, every second counts.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 14, 2018, 05:34:50 PM
What's 1 officer at the front desk of a huge school building going to do to stop someone from walking into the back of the building and shooting up a few classrooms before the officer even knows anything happened, VS the odds that the teacher in the first classroom he goes into or at least 1 or 2 in the surrounding few classrooms have guns to stop him. In a mass shooting incident, every second counts.
Apt buildings, schools, shuls, etc in Sao Paulo all have double gates with a guard that has to vet you to get past the 2nd gate. There is no back access point.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:37:55 PM
What's 1 officer at the front desk of a huge school building going to do to stop someone from walking into the back of the building and shooting up a few classrooms before the officer even knows anything happened, VS the odds that the teacher in the first classroom he goes into or at least 1 or 2 in the surrounding few classrooms have guns to stop him. In a mass shooting incident, every second counts.
I hear what you are saying. Most experts will tell you unless they are properly trained they will do more harm then good. How many will be willing to go through 100's of hours of training?

If nothing else is done then I think it should be tried.

How about the other side of the issue? Less guns, banning HCM and stricter laws. What can we try there?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yhaller14 on February 14, 2018, 05:39:08 PM
Banning semi automatics would be a nice start
Is that a joke ???
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:40:15 PM
Is that a joke ???
I will bet he is 100% serious.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:46:50 PM
I hear what you are saying. Most experts will tell you unless they are properly trained they will do more harm then good.

Source?

How about the other side of the issue? Less guns, banning HCM and stricter laws. What can we try there?

 The issue with that is, we forget that criminals don't listen to laws.

Apt buildings, schools, shuls, etc in Sao Paulo all have double gates with a guard that has to vet you to get past the 2nd gate. There is no back access point.


When you live in a place like that, you need insane security, and it's still not fool proof.
Mexico has the highest murder rate in the world (after syria) with the strictest gun laws.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:49:29 PM
The issue with that is, we forget that criminals don't listen to laws.
This is why you are the problem and not the solution. You can't look at the other side.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 05:49:49 PM

Source?

You ever held a gun?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:53:27 PM
You ever held a gun?
Yes, but not too many times. That doesn't show me that an untrained person with a gun will do more harm, we would need a study to prove that to be the case.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just asking for the source.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 05:57:07 PM
Yes, but not too many times. That doesn't show me that an untrained person with a gun will do more harm, we would need a study to prove that to be the case.

I'm not disagreeing, I'm just asking for the source.
Some things are a given and don't need a source. Just look at the gun threads and you will see why untrained people should not have guns. They look at it as a cool thing to have a carry permit.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 05:59:31 PM
Some things are a given and don't need a source. Just look at the gun threads and you will see why untrained people should not have guns. They look at it as a cool thing to have a carry permit.
That doesn't mean that they're worse than not having a gun, when there's an active shooter. You made a claim supposedly quoting experts, and not you're saying it's common sense.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 14, 2018, 06:02:10 PM
Aren't you skipping over all the potential non-intentional injuries or deaths that would likely occur with all those guns in schools?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 14, 2018, 06:04:15 PM
Aren't you skipping over all the potential non-intentional injuries or deaths that would likely occur with all those guns in schools?
Guns in the hands of responsible people, don't just kill and injure on their own. We don't seem to have an issue with this anywhere else, why would a school be worse?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 06:06:24 PM
That doesn't mean that they're worse than not having a gun, when there's an active shooter. You made a claim supposedly quoting experts, and not you're saying it's common sense.
I am not going to do all your research for you. I know from personal experiences and training with some of the best.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 06:08:09 PM
Guns in the hands of responsible people, don't just kill and injure on their own. We don't seem to have an issue with this anywhere else, why would a school be worse?
And how about the kid who now has more access to a gun by taking it from a potentially weak teacher?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 14, 2018, 06:25:40 PM
And how about the kid who now has more access to a gun by taking it from a potentially weak teacher?
There's a cool Israeli made trigger safety lock that they make, that would solve that problem. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zore-a-new-generation-of-gun-storage--2#/
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 06:27:20 PM
There's a cool trigger safety lock that they make,
There's that word again.  >:(
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 14, 2018, 06:27:47 PM
There's that word again.  >:(
Ok, old man.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 14, 2018, 06:35:26 PM
Is that a joke ???
And why would that be a joke ??? Why does an upstanding citizen need that for ?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 06:52:24 PM
17 dead!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 14, 2018, 06:58:06 PM
Guns in the hands of responsible people, don't just kill and injure on their own. We don't seem to have an issue with this anywhere else, why would a school be worse?
We do that that issue elsewhere, don't we? And wouldn't the same rate of incidence be worse around kids?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 07:02:57 PM
There's a cool Israeli made trigger safety lock that they make, that would solve that problem. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zore-a-new-generation-of-gun-storage--2#/
But would leave the teacher shot before they get it off
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 07:13:39 PM
according to local chabad rabbi school has very large jewish percentage with several confirmed injuries
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 07:25:48 PM
Why are schools such a target of deadly shootings? They are magnets for deranged murderers because they know they will go unopposed because no one else will have a gun to stop them, and when they do show up at a school, it's much deadlier because there's no one to stop them.

I hear this argument a lot, and itís a bunch of malarkey.

A school is a perfect target because:

1. He wants to take revenge on his classmates, teachers and principles.
2. Itís Highly condensed. Students are generally packed into classes, lunchroom, gym etc.
3. It makes a bold statement. Attacking a random office building will result in the deaths of random people from all backgrounds and walks of life. Whereas with the school he Will devastate HIS town, which is exactly what he wants. (Terrorists actually prefer offices so that they can get victims from many backgrounds, thus they choose things like the office in San Bernadino, the World Trade Center etc)

This shooter could just have easily attacked an office. Nobody has guns there either.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Myccrabbi on February 14, 2018, 07:46:54 PM
up to 7 dead . any reports on weapon ?


Not that I have seen.
I believe it said in the article that it was an AR-15 semi-automatic rifle...
Pretty easy to obtain in FL.
This story is very sad and depressing :(
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 07:47:12 PM
I hear this argument a lot, and itís a bunch of malarkey.

A school is a perfect target because:

1. He wants to take revenge on his classmates, teachers and principles.
2. Itís Highly condensed. Students are generally packed into classes, lunchroom, gym etc.
3. It makes a bold statement. Attacking a random office building will result in the deaths of random people from all backgrounds and walks of life. Whereas with the school he Will devastate HIS town, which is exactly what he wants. (Terrorists actually prefer offices so that they can get victims from many backgrounds, thus they choose things like the office in San Bernadino, the World Trade Center etc)

This shooter could just have easily attacked an office. Nobody has guns there either.
+1 he told cops he pulled the fire alarm to get people crowded in the hallway to increase his victims
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 07:53:04 PM
Would requiring teachers to carry a non lethal weapon such as a taser help reduce casualties?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Moshe123 on February 14, 2018, 08:21:23 PM
I'm sickened by my fellow Republicans' unwillingness to ban most guns. It's Republican selfishness of the highest level. Other people should get killed all the time, but don't take away my gun.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yitzshpitz on February 14, 2018, 08:28:39 PM
Putting aside the gun control debate....

I think the most important thing is to identify troubled and at risk young adults and make sure they are taken to a professional and should be watched closely. In most of these case it is premeditated and there are signs/clues that lead up to the tragedy. As much as a society we dont like dealing with people who have deep psychological issues,we need to start helping them.  We need to keep a closer eye on these people and make sure they get help not only for their good but for everyone's safety.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 14, 2018, 08:29:10 PM
I hear this argument a lot, and itís a bunch of malarkey.

A school is a perfect target because:

1. He wants to take revenge on his classmates, teachers and principles.
2. Itís Highly condensed. Students are generally packed into classes, lunchroom, gym etc.
3. It makes a bold statement. Attacking a random office building will result in the deaths of random people from all backgrounds and walks of life. Whereas with the school he Will devastate HIS town, which is exactly what he wants. (Terrorists actually prefer offices so that they can get victims from many backgrounds, thus they choose things like the office in San Bernadino, the World Trade Center etc)

This shooter could just have easily attacked an office. Nobody has guns there either.
Plus the copycat factor, in which the media is complicit.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 08:31:43 PM
Plus the copycat factor, in which the media is complicit.
What would you like to see the media do?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 08:40:38 PM
What would you like to see the media do?
i would say the copycat factor is real but i dont see  the media as being complicit
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 09:07:13 PM
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 14, 2018, 09:08:14 PM
i would say the copycat factor is real but i dont see  the media as being complicit

For starters. There's more out there.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 09:30:34 PM
I'm sickened by my fellow Republicans' unwillingness to ban most guns. It's Republican selfishness of the highest level. Other people should get killed all the time, but don't take away my gun.

Which guns should they ban?

Semi-automatics kill the most people in mass shootings, but basic handguns are still responsible for the vast majority of homicides. Wouldnít one argue that if we are going to ban guns it should be all guns?

Now, suppose Congress and the SCOTUS approve banning all guns, what happens from there? Does Jose the drug dealer from down the block just turn in his weapon? Do millions of homeowners across America turn in their weapons? What about their hunting rifles and shotguns? Do thousands of gun stores close down their business?

You canít walk back 200 years of tradition. Guns are a part of American culture.

Itís EASIER to implement airport-level security at every school, university, stadium and office in America than to ban guns. If anything, we should fight and press for security which is achievable and a realistic goal.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 09:39:32 PM
Apt buildings, schools, shuls, etc in Sao Paulo all have double gates with a guard that has to vet you to get past the 2nd gate. There is no back access point.

This is how it SHOULD be here in the U.S. as well. We are way to content and unwilling to be bothered by it.

It will mean that a half hour of school is shaved off in the morning so the kids can get through security, but itís still absolutely necessary.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 09:41:08 PM
Which guns should they ban?
How about military style assault rifles? I have owned guns my whole life. I would bet I own more guns than 99.9% of members here. What useful purpose does this gun serve? How about HCM (high capacity magazines)? Did we ban bump stocks yet? You want me to keep going?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 09:52:25 PM
How about making a death penalty for any mass shooter that kills 2 or more people on scene. Would that help reduce casualties? Combined with no media being allowed to mention names or pictures of shooters. With more people carrying non lethal weapons. With more security.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 09:55:36 PM
How about making a death penalty for any mass shooter that kills 2 or more people on scene. Would that help reduce casualties? Combined with no media being allowed to mention names or pictures of shooters. With more people carrying non lethal weapons. With more security.
I don't have a problem trying any of those. What do you mean "on scene"?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 14, 2018, 09:55:56 PM
Sao Paulo style security? In Canada, Europe, Australia etc.. there's no need for such security. You seriously would trade the "privilege" of a third world lifestyle for the "right" to have a fun?
BTW, it's funny how people pick "rights"!
The Supreme Court has decided on all sorts of social rights that most second amendment fans are horrified by.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 10:00:03 PM
How about military style assault rifles? I have owned guns my whole life. I would bet I own more guns than 99.9% of members here. What useful purpose does this gun serve? How about HCM (high capacity magazines)? Did we ban bump stocks yet? You want me to keep going?

I can get on board with that, but how would you make this argument before congress?

ďSenator, we believe that military-style weapons, which are responsible for about 2% of gun crimes should be banned. Also, if a mass shooter was armed with nothing but two handguns, he would only be able to kill 10 people instead of 35. Also, even though 98% of homicides are committed with handguns, we believe those should not be banned because good people need them for protection. As for the good people that own assault weapons, tough luck on them, they need to turn those in or be arrestedĒ.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 14, 2018, 10:03:20 PM
Which guns should they ban?

Semi-automatics kill the most people in mass shootings, but basic handguns are still responsible for the vast majority of homicides. Wouldnít one argue that if we are going to ban guns it should be all guns?

Now, suppose Congress and the SCOTUS approve banning all guns, what happens from there? Does Jose the drug dealer from down the block just turn in his weapon? Do millions of homeowners across America turn in their weapons? What about their hunting rifles and shotguns? Do thousands of gun stores close down their business?

You canít walk back 200 years of tradition. Guns are a part of American culture.

Itís EASIER to implement airport-level security at every school, university, stadium and office in America than to ban guns. If anything, we should fight and press for security which is achievable and a realistic goal.
They shouldn't ban them. They should tax them. Big time. At the manufacturer level. Thousands of dollars per new gun. And offer tax credit or other incentives to turn in old ones. Eventually pass a federal tax on keeping existing guns. Don't turn in your guns? Tax lien on your house!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 10:08:01 PM
I can get on board with that, but how would you make this argument before congress?

ďSenator, we believe that military-style weapons, which are responsible for about 2% of gun crimes should be banned. Also, if a mass shooter was armed with nothing but two handguns, he would only be able to kill 10 people instead of 35. Also, even though 98% of homicides are committed with handguns, we believe those should not be banned because good people need them for protection. As for the good people that own assault weapons, tough luck on them, they need to turn those in or be arrestedĒ.
Look, we have many different gun problems. We can continue ban guns vs do nothing and watch this happen at an accelerated pace. Or we can try an idea from both sides and see if it helps. If everyone would look at this as if it was their own son or daughter that was killed we would get somewhere.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 10:09:50 PM
They shouldn't ban them. They should tax them. Big time. At the manufacturer level. Thousands of dollars per new gun. And offer tax credit or other incentives to turn in old ones. Eventually pass a federal tax on keeping existing guns. Don't turn in your guns? Tax lien on your house!
That is a good idea. Then you would be hearing the R's screaming what about the poor people, they can't afford a gun.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 10:11:06 PM
They shouldn't ban them. They should tax them. Big time. At the manufacturer level. Thousands of dollars per new gun. And offer tax credit or other incentives to turn in old ones. Eventually pass a federal tax on keeping existing guns. Don't turn in your guns? Tax lien on your house!
That would allow using the tax code to penalize any freedom. Tax religion. Tax speech. Not even a slippery slope it is what they would be doing.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 10:14:00 PM
Sao Paulo style security? In Canada, Europe, Australia etc.. there's no need for such security. You seriously would trade the "privilege" of a third world lifestyle for the "right" to have a fun?
BTW, it's funny how people pick "rights"!
The Supreme Court has decided on all sorts of social rights that most second amendment fans are horrified by.

There is need for such security, but because crime is rare we become content with not having it.

If you drove for 30 years and never had a single accident, then someone offered to sell you a car in perfect mint condition for 1/4 the market value, but the car had no airbags or seatbelts, would you buy it? If you were fine for the first 30 years why not assume you will be fine forever?

ďIt doesnít happen hereĒ is always true... until it does. We need this security, we just donít want to be bothered by it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 14, 2018, 10:15:22 PM


How about making a death penalty for any mass shooter that kills 2 or more people on scene. Would that help reduce casualties? Combined with no media being allowed to mention names or pictures of shooters. With more people carrying non lethal weapons. With more security.

Death penalty won't scare them more then life behind bars.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 10:19:25 PM
I don't have a problem trying any of those. What do you mean "on scene"?
What I meant was the ones that count towards the number two should be fatal shots (killed on scene). Not non fatal shots that killed from let's say bleeding.

If it was up to me personally, I would without a doubt implement a death penalty on even one. But due to people's mercy I don't think people would agree in this crazy world.

Therefore I would propose a law that would try to instill any sort of thinking on the perpetrator. If the law is after two people killed then the perpetrator might want to only kill the main person that they have a grudge against. Same for lethal shots. Trying to give an incentive not to kill but to injure.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 10:24:14 PM
Look, we have many different gun problems. We can continue ban guns vs do nothing and watch this happen at an accelerated pace. Or we can try an idea from both sides and see if it helps. If everyone would look at this as if it was their own son or daughter that was killed we would get somewhere.

Shouldnít we aim for that which is possible?

Americans arenít giving up their guns.

The only possible way to curb this situation is to have airport-level security in every school, and basic double-gated security at every synagogue and church.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 10:26:27 PM

Death penalty won't scare them more then life behind bars.
I think a publicly available video of the death penalty being carried out would do wonders for that concern.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 10:27:24 PM
What I meant was the ones that count towards the number two should be fatal shots (killed on scene). Not non fatal shots that killed from let's say bleeding.

If it was up to me personally, I would without a doubt implement a death penalty on even one. But due to people's mercy I don't think people would agree in this crazy world.

Therefore I would propose a law that would try to instill any sort of thinking on the perpetrator. If the law is after two people killed then the perpetrator might want to only kill the main person that they have a grudge against. Same for lethal shots. Trying to give an incentive not to kill but to injure.
no killer goes in their thinking through the consequences in a logical matter. they go in thinking that their is potential to get killed by responding law enforcement
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 10:28:09 PM
BDE jamie gutenberg
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 10:29:34 PM
That would allow using the tax code to penalize any freedom. Tax religion. Tax speech. Not even a slippery slope it is what they would be doing.
+1
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 10:33:45 PM
no killer goes in their thinking through the consequences in a logical matter. they go in thinking that their is potential to get killed by responding law enforcement
I'm not following. Therefore what?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 10:34:01 PM
What I meant was the ones that count towards the number two should be fatal shots (killed on scene). Not non fatal shots that killed from let's say bleeding.
OK, I thought you meant to kill the shooter on scene.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 10:35:41 PM
I'm not following. Therefore what?
therefore thedeath penalty wont really prevent them from killing people if they have no real plans on living
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 14, 2018, 10:36:28 PM
OK, I thought you meant to kill the shooter on scene.  :)
we should but thats not gonna prevent more such stories from happening
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 10:38:30 PM
They shouldn't ban them. They should tax them. Big time. At the manufacturer level. Thousands of dollars per new gun. And offer tax credit or other incentives to turn in old ones. Eventually pass a federal tax on keeping existing guns. Don't turn in your guns? Tax lien on your house!
What do you gain by doing this? Why not just ban it right away and yes all guns have to be turned in. Maybe offer tax credits for the financial loss.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sammy82 on February 14, 2018, 10:41:13 PM
That is a good idea. Then you would be hearing the D's screaming what about the poor people, they can't afford a gun.
FTFY
And they'll come up with the solution of taxing rich people more so that the poor people will be able to afford it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 14, 2018, 10:43:38 PM
FTFY
And they'll come up with the solution of taxing rich people more so that the poor people will be able to afford it.
More like complaining about the rich who can afford it
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 10:45:31 PM
FTFY
You just can't look at anything objectively. The D's want less people with guns.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sammy82 on February 14, 2018, 10:57:13 PM
You just can't look at anything objectively. The D's want less people with guns.
I'm not sure I believe that. I think they just want to control people in any way possible (since they know better on how to spend our money, raise our kids, believe in our god's, etc). If it means to say guns are bad, fine. If it means making people give up their money for other people's 'rights', also fine.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 11:01:31 PM
I'm not sure I believe that. I think they just want to control people in any way possible (since they know better on how to spend our money, raise our kids, believe in our god's, etc). If it means to say guns are bad, fine. If it means making people give up their money for other people's 'rights', also fine.
OK I get it. You are drinking the Kool-Aid.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 11:04:10 PM
therefore thedeath penalty wont really prevent them from killing people if they have no real plans on living
I hear. You might be making making a valid point. I have to think about it. I thought of it as the shooters objective is to cause as much harm to get their revenge. But the shooter won't do anything to themselves to cause themselves to be in more trouble than necessary in case they get out alive.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 11:06:42 PM
18 school shootings this year already. Keep doing nothing and expect different results?  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sammy82 on February 14, 2018, 11:09:20 PM
OK I get it. You are drinking the Kool-Aid.  :)
Come on. You could do better than that. How about I watch too much Hanity. Or call me a gullible. Or I'm ok with the guy in the White House who's is a pervert.......
And while we at it let's decide if Trump didn't respond quick enough. Or he responded too quick. Doesn't really matter because either way it's his fault and that's all that's important.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 14, 2018, 11:12:11 PM
Come on. You could do better than that. How about I watch too much Hanity. Or call me a gullible. Or I'm ok with the guy in the White House who's is a pervert.......
And while we at it let's decide if Trump didn't respond quick enough. Or he responded too quick. Doesn't really matter because either way it's his fault and that's all that's important.
If you think the D's aren't anti-gun then all of the above!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 14, 2018, 11:13:20 PM
That would allow using the tax code to penalize any freedom. Tax religion. Tax speech. Not even a slippery slope it is what they would be doing.
Wouldn't be the first time we used the tax code for social purposes...think liquor or cigarette taxes.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 11:13:22 PM
What some of you sound like is like saying we should take care of it by flying over with a plane with a big magnet which will pull all the guns away from everyone. All the we shoulds are pointless if they are not realistic under the constitution.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 11:13:56 PM
Wouldn't be the first time we used the tax code for social purposes...think liquor or cigarette taxes.
Those are not constitutionally protected.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 11:14:43 PM
If you think the D's aren't anti-gun they all of the above!!!
They are definitely more willing to curtail freedoms to accomplish their agenda.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 14, 2018, 11:15:45 PM
Those are not constitutionally protected.
You're sort of forgetting about the way prohibition went down..
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 11:21:02 PM
You're sort of forgetting about the way prohibition went down..
Not at all. There is no protected right to drink alcohol and never was. The reason it need an amendment was because it was not under federal authority.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Definitions on February 14, 2018, 11:21:22 PM
What some of you sound like is like saying we should take care of it by flying over with a plane with a big magnet which will pull all the buns away from everyone. All the we shoulds are pointless if they are not realistic under the constitution.
That took me way longer than it should have to realize buns was a typo. I was sitting there thinking what's the nimshal :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 14, 2018, 11:23:20 PM
Wouldn't be the first time we used the tax code for social purposes...think liquor or cigarette taxes.

Excellent point. And it did absolutely nothing.

Cigarette smoking declined due to massive awareness campaigns targeting youth. Drinking... never declined.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 14, 2018, 11:35:48 PM
I'm not sure I believe that. I think they just want to control people in any way possible (since they know better on how to spend our money, raise our kids, believe in our god's, etc). If it means to say guns are bad, fine. If it means making people give up their money for other people's 'rights', also fine.
What you're saying is definitely true about some liberal government types. However, I'm sure there are plenty of people who think banning guns would help stop a lot of shootings
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 14, 2018, 11:38:05 PM
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 11:42:41 PM
That took me way longer than it should have to realize buns was a typo. I was sitting there thinking what's the nimshal :)
Lol
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 14, 2018, 11:44:19 PM
Excellent point. And it did absolutely nothing.

Cigarette smoking declined due to massive awareness campaigns targeting youth. Drinking... never declined.
I am not sure you are right about drinking. If you read about the history of prohibition it seems not to be the case.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: efflpetzel on February 15, 2018, 12:20:48 AM
Leave it to The Onion to sum it up perfectly
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 15, 2018, 12:22:42 AM
Leave it to The Onion to sum it up perfectly
They run that samev exact headline every time there's a mass shooting. It's tradition by now.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 15, 2018, 12:34:14 AM
They run that samev exact headline every time there's a mass shooting. It's tradition by now.
Yup. Look at the "recommended stories" at the bottom of the page.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 15, 2018, 12:41:52 AM
Apt buildings, schools, shuls, etc in Sao Paulo all have double gates with a guard that has to vet you to get past the 2nd gate. There is no back access point.
We're in bad shape if we need to secure ourselves like Sao Paulo
Guns in the hands of responsible people, don't just kill and injure on their own. We don't seem to have an issue with this anywhere else, why would a school be worse?
Would like to know the answer to this
And how about the kid who now has more access to a gun by taking it from a potentially weak teacher?
I would say it's a pretty small chance in an elementary School
There's a cool Israeli made trigger safety lock that they make, that would solve that problem. https://www.indiegogo.com/projects/zore-a-new-generation-of-gun-storage--2#/
Safety Triggers would be a great solution. But those that appose, claim that it doesn't always work and can delay the shot.

I have zero knowledge of it...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 02:14:39 AM
Those are not constitutionally protected.
The right to vote is certainly constitutionally protected. And yet it took the 24th amendment to eliminate the poll tax, which was a perfect example of using the tax code to limit a protected right.
Title: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 06:10:02 AM
I'm not sure I believe that. I think they just want to control people in any way possible (since they know better on how to spend our money, raise our kids, believe in our god's, etc). If it means to say guns are bad, fine. If it means making people give up their money for other people's 'rights', also fine.
You sound like a redneck with an IQ below the freezing point...
What else does this freedom entitle you ? a howitzer? How about a tomahawk??
This is not a discussion about gun rights itís a discussion about WMD namely automatic rifles, thereís no argument that many lives wouldíve been saved, here, in Orlando,Vegas etc. had these people not had such easy access to such guns. Even if only ONE kids life wouldíve been saved itís worth it to give up this freedom.
Now, you want to argue about mental health, inner city crime ? Thatís a different discussion, one that should be explored Iím sure many lives can be saved that way too.
Just look at this kids Instagram
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/743a4263ab24464207e26353f690da96.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/1ccc059c324e09843823da1ffc52bcc8.jpg)

No doubt in my mind a ban on WMD wouldíve saved lives here , mental health help too, but that not a total solution (counseling is not always gonna stop a murder)
As mr. orange head is fond of saying ďthe world is laughing at usĒ
Again no one is offering a complete solution to gun crime, but letís stop with stupid ďrightsĒ that the founding fathers enacted
1. Ur gun is not gonna stop the big bad government from invading youíre home. Arguably Twitter is gonna be more effective
2. The fathers have never seen such guns, no doubt it wouldnít have been included in the ďrightĒ
All we need is some republicans standing up to theyíre base and say ENOUGH!!
If people have got more solutions to stop gun crime, bring it on!! But one kids life is just too much .....and Iím not holding my breath to see which school concert night club etc. will be  next to be attacked by AUTOMATIC rifles !!Will banning these guns stop these people from committing these crimes ? I donít know, will less people die ? Definitely Yes ! Will mental counseling stop these people? Maybe some maybe all , itís something that should be implemented as part of the background, but banning these guns would definitely and immediately save lives.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: moko on February 15, 2018, 06:38:01 AM
Apt buildings, schools, shuls, etc in Sao Paulo all have double gates with a guard that has to vet you to get past the 2nd gate. There is no back access point.
unless of course they're in on it
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 07:38:26 AM
The right to vote is certainly constitutionally protected. And yet it took the 24th amendment to eliminate the poll tax, which was a perfect example of using the tax code to limit a protected right.
That is a great example. It shows exactly why the tax code is not the right way to do it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 07:40:18 AM


I would say it's a pretty small chance in an elementary School
How about the outsider who comes in and now has extra weapons?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 08:22:23 AM
i would say the copycat factor is real but i dont see  the media as being complicit
i change my mind the media is definitely complicit. why the *** do they keep on saying he was an orphan who was bullied with a troubled childhood? seems like an open invitation to all people that have a rough life to go stir crazy . looking back how many of the past shooters was classified as "disgruntled" as if thats permission to do whatever takes to "ungruntle"
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 15, 2018, 08:26:14 AM
i change my mind the media is definitely complicit. why the *** do they keep on saying he was an orphan who was bullied with a troubled childhood? seems like an open invitation to all people that have a rough life to go stir crazy . looking back how many of the past shooters was classified as "disgruntled" as if thats permission to do whatever takes to "ungruntle"
If the media never released a killers photo or name, I think there would be less killings. I'm not saying it'd solve anything, but in the end it would lead to less killings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 08:28:20 AM
If the media never released a killers photo or name, I think there would be less killings. I'm not saying it'd solve anything, but in the end it would lead to less killings.
that too . but it really bothers me that every time such a thing happens they try explaining it  as the shooter being being a victim of circumstance
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 08:43:28 AM
If the media never released a killers photo or name, I think there would be less killings. I'm not saying it'd solve anything, but in the end it would lead to less killings.
im just thinking would that even get past the Freedom of Information Act?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 15, 2018, 08:50:01 AM
im just thinking would that even get past the Freedom of Information Act?
Where in the act does it force media to make being a murderer into a lifestyle choice? And make him into a hero for people looking to be famous martyr?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 09:00:52 AM
Where in the act does it force media to make being a murderer into a lifestyle choice? And make him into a hero for people looking to be famous martyr?
if the law allows the information there is no way to make the media not print it . as im sure you know the media cares only about their bottom line and the more information they print the better their bottom line is.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 09:00:59 AM
5 of the 17 killed were yiden r"l
Medow Pollack 18
Jamie Guttenberg 14
Alex Schachter  49
Scott beige 35
Alyssa Alhadeff 14
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 15, 2018, 09:03:08 AM
if the law allows the information there is no way to make the media not print it . as im sure you know the media cares only about their bottom line and the more information they print the better their bottom line is.
I agree. Never said otherwise.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 09:51:11 AM
You sound like a redneck with an IQ below the freezing point...
What else does this freedom entitle you ? a howitzer? How about a tomahawk??
This is not a discussion about gun rights itís a discussion about WMD namely automatic rifles, thereís no argument that many lives wouldíve been saved, here, in Orlando,Vegas etc. had these people not had such easy access to such guns. Even if only ONE kids life wouldíve been saved itís worth it to give up this freedom.

No doubt in my mind a ban on WMD wouldíve saved lives here , mental health help too, but that not a total solution (counseling is not always gonna stop a murder)
Again no one is offering a complete solution to gun crime, but letís stop with stupid ďrightsĒ that the founding fathers enacted
1. Ur gun is not gonna stop the big bad government from invading youíre home. Arguably Twitter is gonna be more effective
2. The fathers have never seen such guns, no doubt it wouldnít have been included in the ďrightĒ
All we need is some republicans standing up to theyíre base and say ENOUGH!!
If people have got more solutions to stop gun crime, bring it on!! But one kids life is just too much .....and Iím not holding my breath to see which school concert night club etc. will be  next to be attacked by AUTOMATIC rifles !!Will banning these guns stop these people from committing these crimes ? I donít know, will less people die ? Definitely Yes ! Will mental counseling stop these people? Maybe some maybe all , itís something that should be implemented as part of the background, but banning these guns would definitely and immediately save lives.
It's actually a very important right, that saves lives. Just imagine if at the time of WWII there were no laws banning guns, I don't think the holocaust would have happened, and certainly not on that level. If the Nazis knew that there would be armed resistance they wouldn't be able to round up thousands of residents of a town and murder them all.

Don't say the holocaust won't happen again, because it absolutely can.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 09:53:24 AM
18 school shootings this year already. Keep doing nothing and expect different results?  ::) ::) ::)
That's a very misleading number. Every time someone gets hurt or killed is terrible, but that number is extremely inflated. Most of those 18 shootings, would not be classified as school shootings by any sane person.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 15, 2018, 09:56:01 AM
How about the outsider who comes in and now has extra weapons?
You don't give an incompetent teacher a gun..you obviously need to make sure that the teacher is capable.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 09:57:13 AM
This shooter could just have easily attacked an office. Nobody has guns there either.
That's because it's nearly impossible to get a carry license.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: sillypainter on February 15, 2018, 09:58:45 AM
What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.

Of course we are all hard core right wingers until it comes to our section 8 and food stamps......

STOP the guns once for all.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 15, 2018, 09:59:05 AM
That's because it's nearly impossible to get a carry license.
It's super easy in FL.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 15, 2018, 09:59:09 AM
That's because it's nearly impossible to get a carry license.
Huh??
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 09:59:53 AM
It's super easy in FL.
So I'm sure many do, no?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 10:00:54 AM


What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.

Of course we are all hard core right wingers until it comes to our section 8 and food stamps......

STOP the guns once for all.

Against our rights, may as well abolish freedom of speech.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:02:17 AM
What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.

Of course we are all hard core right wingers until it comes to our section 8 and food stamps......

STOP the guns once for all.
Btw even ďthe great one ď agrees on a ban of automatics....gotta give him credit for that
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:02:43 AM
What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.

Of course we are all hard core right wingers until it comes to our section 8 and food stamps......

STOP the guns once for all.
Why not look at Mexico? They have the highest murder rate in the world (after Syria) even though they have very strict gun control.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 15, 2018, 10:02:46 AM
So I'm sure many do, no?
Yes. 1,848,871 permits. i.e. 1 in like 12 people have one.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 10:03:28 AM
Yes. 1,848,871 permits.
Add that to Florida pros
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:04:07 AM
It's super easy in FL.
When was the last time there was a mass shooting in a FL office? The only one I can think of offhand was in CA where a carry permit is literally impossible to obtain.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: sillypainter on February 15, 2018, 10:04:36 AM
Btw even ďthe great one ď agrees on a ban of automatics....gotta give him credit for that

Haven't listened to radio for more than 10 years. Is that Mark Levin? But Idon't think it should stop there. We need to ban all guns, but it's a step at least in the right direction.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yitzshpitz on February 15, 2018, 10:04:50 AM
What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

Because they are smaller countries.


This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.



You also have no idea if they laugh at us when they get home
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:05:45 AM
Huh??
This guy seems to be more concerned of another holocaust than mass shootings happening all around us in schools concerts clubs.... ignorance to a new level
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 10:05:52 AM
What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.

Of course we are all hard core right wingers until it comes to our section 8 and food stamps......

STOP the guns once for all.
Why not look at Mexico? They have the highest murder rate in the world (after Syria) even though they have very strict gun control.
Picking and choosing countries which met your agenda is silly.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:07:22 AM
Yes. 1,848,871 permits. i.e. 1 in like 12 people have one.
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/12/26/la-county-only-197-concealed-carry-permits-for-10-2-million-residents/
Haven't listened to radio for more than 10 years. Is that Mark Levin? But Idon't think it should stop there. We need to ban all guns, but it's a step at least in the right direction.
Banning guns is the beginning of an authoritarian government, that's what Stalin did and that's why he was able to kill millions of his own people, because they had no way to protect themselves.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:07:25 AM
Haven't listened to radio for more than 10 years. Is that Mark Levin? But Idon't think it should stop there. We need to ban all guns, but it's a step at least in the right direction.
I donít think we should ban all guns 127 people wouldnít have been killed in Paris if more people had carry permits. But letís agree to disagree
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 10:07:31 AM


Picking and choosing countries which met your agenda is silly.
That's how I understood his point here,
"don't pick a country as I can pick one that proves my point"

Why not look at Mexico? They have the highest murder rate in the world (after Syria) even though they have very strict gun control.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 15, 2018, 10:08:23 AM
FWIW https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 10:09:11 AM
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/12/26/la-county-only-197-concealed-carry-permits-for-10-2-million-residents/ Banning guns is the beginning of an authoritarian government, that's what Stalin did and that's why he was able to kill millions of his own people, because they had no way to protect themselves.
IMO it doesn't go that far, we have a right, say no more
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 10:09:24 AM
That's how I understood his point here,
"don't pick a country as I can pick one that proves my point"
Exactly. I was agreeing.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 15, 2018, 10:10:33 AM
This guy seems to be more concerned of another holocaust than mass shootings happening all around us in schools concerts clubs.... ignorance to a new level
Let's look at the past 100 years and compare numbers of people murdered in mass shootings and number of people murdered by tyrannical governments shall we? I'd assume it's somewhere around 80,000,000 to 1,000.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:11:25 AM
This guy seems to be more concerned of another holocaust than mass shootings happening all around us in schools concerts clubs.... ignorance to a new level
The amount of people killed in mass shootings in the US, doesn't even come close to a fraction of the number of lives that could have been saved if citizens were allowed to have guns during the holocaust. It's delusional to think that another holocaust can't happen.


FWIW https://www.factcheck.org/2017/10/gun-control-australia-updated/
Homicides declined in the US too.

IMO it doesn't go that far, we have a right, say no more
What doesn't go that far?
Title: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:12:49 AM
http://www.breitbart.com/california/2017/12/26/la-county-only-197-concealed-carry-permits-for-10-2-million-residents/ Banning guns is the beginning of an authoritarian government, that's what Stalin did and that's why he was able to kill millions of his own people, because they had no way to protect themselves.
This is the most nonsense and utter idiocracy put into one sentence! Thereís a reason why these mass shootings only happen in the USA, nobody wants to take away guns they just want to make gun control, meaning that people with mental illness or people in the terror watch list arenít able too buy semi automatic guns...and my opinion is that nobody should be able to buy semi automatic weapons .
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 10:14:50 AM


What doesn't go that far?

The response to the "completely ban guns" people, to those who say to restrict but not ban, cab get more of a response
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 15, 2018, 10:16:24 AM
It's actually a very important right, that saves lives. Just imagine if at the time of WWII there were no laws banning guns, I don't think the holocaust would have happened, and certainly not on that level. If the Nazis knew that there would be armed resistance they wouldn't be able to round up thousands of residents of a town and murder them all.

Don't say the holocaust won't happen again, because it absolutely can.
Those guns that the poles had were worthless against the Nazis. What makes you think that another few guns would've helped?
What more do you need then looking at Canada or UK??????? Why do they have MUCH less murders?

This non sense mentality especially in the frum commumity mind is because the main radio stations in the NY tri state are loaded with the Rush Limbaugh's and Hannity's, and we all listen to them all day, so we have no idea that they go home and laugh from us stupid people. They do it for entertainment and we take them literally for what they say.

Of course we are all hard core right wingers until it comes to our section 8 and food stamps......

STOP the guns once for all.
You have a country that millions of ppl have guns. You can't change that.

It's in the Constitution. You can't ban guns. You can "try" to restrict. That has gone nowhere..
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: sillypainter on February 15, 2018, 10:18:18 AM
The amount of people killed in mass shootings in the US, doesn't even come close to a fraction of the number of lives that could have been saved if citizens were allowed to have guns during the holocaust. It's delusional to think that another holocaust can't happen.

Homicides declined in the US too.
 What doesn't go that far?

Stop with the Holocaust nonsense. You can't think that the government can ban Jews from buying guns in a holocaust era?? And do you really think a few guns can out number a country against you?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 10:18:47 AM
nobody wants to take away guns they just want to make gun control, meaning that people with mental illness or people in the terror watch list arenít able too buy semi automatic guns
Fact Check:
False. Don't even need to look far.
We need to ban all guns, but it's a step at least in the right direction.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 10:19:31 AM
Heart wrenching  :'( :'( :'( :'( :'(

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yitzshpitz on February 15, 2018, 10:21:53 AM
This is the most nonsense and utter idiocracy put into one sentence! Thereís a reason why these mass shootings only happen in the USA, nobody wants to take away guns they just want to make gun control, meaning that people with mental illness or people in the terror watch list arenít able too buy semi automatic guns...and my opinion is that nobody should be able to buy semi automatic weapons . What you just wrote shows how stupid and clueless youíre

His point is that you are looking at the mass shooting issue but forgetting why the 2nd amendment is there to begin with. Yes, of course something should be done but the question is how restrictive the gun laws should be. Calling someone names during a logical discussion or debate is not the way to prove your point.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:24:24 AM
This is the most nonsense and utter idiocracy put into one sentence! Thereís a reason why these mass shootings only happen in the USA, nobody wants to take away guns they just want to make gun control, meaning that people with mental illness or people in the terror watch list arenít able too buy semi automatic guns...and my opinion is that nobody should be able to buy semi automatic weapons . What you just wrote shows how stupid and clueless youíre
Why are you resorting to personal attacks?

1) If you listen to most liberal rhetoric, most of them want complete gun bans, and more gun control is the way to get there.
2) Just because someone is placed on a list for mental illness or terror watch, doesn't give you a right to take away their rights without due process (that's exactly what Obama did and that's all Trump undid)

Those guns that the poles had were worthless against the Nazis. What makes you think that another few guns would've helped?
Absolutely!! The Nazis had nothing to worry about, when going into a city to just round up all the residents and murder them, because there was no way anyone could stop them, even those few guns would have made a huge difference.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:25:18 AM
His point is that you are looking at the mass shooting issue but forgetting why the 2nd amendment is there to begin with. Yes, of course something should be done but the question is how restrictive the gun laws should be. Calling someone names during a logical discussion or debate is not the way to prove your point.
Thank you. You explained it perfectly.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:28:47 AM
Stop with the Holocaust nonsense. You can't think that the government can ban Jews from buying guns in a holocaust era?? And do you really think a few guns can out number a country against you?
It's not only jews, as soon as the government takes away our guns, they can do what they want to us with impunity. There's a reason the constitution gives us the right to an armed militia, TBH I think the founding fathers not only intended to include assault rifles, but even fully automatic guns. If you look at why the second amendment exists, it makes perfect sense. (The supreme court disagrees with me)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 15, 2018, 10:33:20 AM
http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/nikolas-cruz-fbi-warned/index.html
Title: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:34:07 AM
Fact Check:
False. Don't even need to look far.
What I meant was that all these gun toting 2 amendment rooters are scared of the government taking away their guns is not gonna happen...millions of Americans have guns and itís not changing. The discussion is weapons of mass destruction and why people can buy them
Donít let single liberal voices change the need to change what is clearly wrong with our country
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:36:44 AM
It's not only jews, as soon as the government takes away our guns, they can do what they want to us with impunity. There's a reason the constitution gives us the right to an armed militia, TBH I think the founding fathers not only intended to include assault rifles, but even fully automatic guns. If you look at why the second amendment exists, it makes perfect sense. (The supreme court disagrees with me)
Again NO ONE IS TAKING YOUR GUNS!!!
And why stop with assault rifles? Maybe you need a tank also ? Sure will help youíre war against the government
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:40:53 AM
Again NO ONE IS TAKING YOUR GUNS!!!
That is not what the left wants. You hear it all the time, and even on this thread "why don't we take away everyone's guns like in the UK". It's delusional to think that the left will be happy with banning "assault rifles" (which is an arbitrary term) they make it very clear, that they won't stop until all guns are illegal.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:44:23 AM
That is not what the left wants. You hear it all the time, and even on this thread "why don't we take away everyone's guns like in the UK". It's delusional to think that the left will be happy with banning "assault rifles" (which is an arbitrary term) they make it very clear, that they won't stop until all guns are illegal.
So explain if you can where exactly does this stop?? Do you need a Gatling gun too ?
Moderation my friend is what we need
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:46:50 AM
Why are you resorting to personal attacks?

1) If you listen to most liberal rhetoric, most of them want complete gun bans, and more gun control is the way to get there.
2) Just because someone is placed on a list for mental illness or terror watch, doesn't give you a right to take away their rights without due process (that's exactly what Obama did and that's all Trump undid)
 Absolutely!! The Nazis had nothing to worry about, when going into a city to just round up all the residents and murder them, because there was no way anyone could stop them, even those few guns would have made a huge difference.
Iím sorry you are right I wonít prove my point by insulting you , and I apologize.
You just got me really mad saying such things while the blood of these kids is still warm....
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 10:51:53 AM
Iím sorry you are right I wonít prove my point by insulting you , and I apologize.
You just got me really mad saying such things while the blood of these kids is still warm....
Making rash decisions on policy out of emotion is never good.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 10:55:15 AM
Iím sorry you are right I wonít prove my point by insulting you , and I apologize.
You just got me really mad saying such things while the blood of these kids is still warm....
It's terrible, but the answer is not a knee jerk reaction. Gun policy is something that needs to be though without getting emotions involved. Good policy is never made on the back of a tragedy, it always leads to bad policy, and gun policy is no different.

I agree with you that the knee jerk reaction would be to bad guns, ban assault rifles, etc. but the biggest mistake that's made is forgetting that criminals don't listen to laws.

In NYC, they're afraid of reciprocity laws, even though concealed carry permit holders around the country, have a lower crime rate than cops. They complain that now we won't be able to control who has guns, the issue is that they were never able to control the people who should not have guns, they only control the people who should be able to have guns, leaving the law abiding citizens defenseless against criminals.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 10:56:13 AM
That is not what the left wants. You hear it all the time, and even on this thread "why don't we take away everyone's guns like in the UK". It's delusional to think that the left will be happy with banning "assault rifles" (which is an arbitrary term) they make it very clear, that they won't stop until all guns are illegal.
That is a slippery slope argument and frankly not really true. They may try to make all guns illegal but they would need an amendment for that which is not happening in the near future. I don't know enough about guns to be able to give clear guidelines, but some more restrictions do sound reasonable. We are constantly having shooters who as individuals should never have had access to guns. Something is broken if we can't stop a guy calling himself a professional school shooter from getting a gun.

Title: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 10:59:02 AM
It's terrible, but the answer is not a knee jerk reaction. Gun policy is something that needs to be though without getting emotions involved. Good policy is never made on the back of a tragedy, it always leads to bad policy, and gun policy is no different.

I agree with you that the knee jerk reaction would be to bad guns, ban assault rifles, etc. but the biggest mistake that's made is forgetting that criminals don't listen to laws.

In NYC, they're afraid of reciprocity laws, even though concealed carry permit holders around the country, have a lower crime rate than cops. They complain that now we won't be able to control who has guns, the issue is that they were never able to control the people who should not have guns, they only control the people who should be able to have guns, leaving the law abiding citizens defenseless against criminals.
Again you are not leaving citizens defenseless....a handgun is going to be much more effective in cramped situation ex. A bar ,school.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mercaz1 on February 15, 2018, 10:59:20 AM
5 of the 17 killed were yiden r"l
Medow Pollack 18
Jamie Guttenberg 14
Alex Schachter  49
Scott beige 35
Alyssa Alhadeff 14

his name is Scott Beigel
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 11:03:36 AM
That is a great example. It shows exactly why the tax code is not the right way to do it.
Yeah, the tax code is not a great way to keep blacks from voting. It's a wonderful way to stop the insanity...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:08:09 AM
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 11:08:35 AM
That is a slippery slope argument and frankly not really true. They may try to make all guns illegal but they would need an amendment for that which is not happening in the near future. I don't know enough about guns to be able to give clear guidelines, but some more restrictions do sound reasonable. We are constantly having shooters who as individuals should never have had access to guns. Something is broken if we can't stop a guy calling himself a professional school shooter from getting a gun.

I agree.

When discussing gun policy, there are 2 sides to every argument, one is freedom, and the other is safety. Most gun control advocates forget about the freedom aspect of it, and you hear them happy to take away the rights of millions of americans because it may make a deranged shooter less deadly, without looking at the repercussions of it. We already have a background checking system in place, but it sounds like it isn't updated properly, allowing those who should be on the list to purchase guns, that's where the focus should be, making sure all required agencies report to it.

There's another aspect that hasn't been mentioned, and isn't wide spread yet mostly because it's still imperfect - the ghost gun. The ghost gun is basically created by a 3D milling machine using readily available pieces of metal and a software file that is available online, there is no way the government can control it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:10:32 AM
Yeah, the tax code is not a great way to keep blacks from voting. It's a wonderful way to stop the insanity...
Why is it a more wonderful way to do one than the other besides that you (and I) disagree with wanting to use it for that?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 11:11:26 AM
We should definitely allow 19 year olds to buy beer. The same way they can join the military.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:11:32 AM
THAT is a very good point!
Title: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:15:05 AM
Again you are not leaving citizens defenseless....a handgun is going to be much more effective in cramped situation ex. A bar ,school.
So explain if you can where exactly does this stop?? Do you need a Gatling gun too ?
Moderation my friend is what we need
Any answer ? ?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:19:41 AM
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 11:23:30 AM
Any answer ? ?
Do you have an issue with a semi automatic hand gun?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:26:38 AM
Do you have an issue with a semi automatic hand gun?
Look Iím not an expert but we can have the discussion about which guns exactly to ban or we can talk about the fact that most republicans canít hear the word ďbanĒ be it a B.B. gun or an f35....answer me why a tank in youíre opinion should/shouldnít be available to citizens
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:27:47 AM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/a512a308e6ba9e97559b8d749af7d1c7.png)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:29:56 AM
Look Iím not an expert but we can have the discussion about which guns exactly to ban or we can talk about the fact that most republicans canít hear the word ďbanĒ be it a B.B. gun or an f35....answer me why a tank in youíre opinion should/shouldnít be available to citizens
Or the fact that most Dems can't hear the word gun be it a B.B. gun or an f35. You are part of the problem not the solution.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 11:32:48 AM
Why is it a more wonderful way to do one than the other besides that you (and I) disagree with wanting to use it for that?
I agree with you on that point. The love of guns and gun culture is evil, just as the suppression of blacks is evil.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 15, 2018, 11:36:38 AM


http://www.cnn.com/2018/02/15/us/nikolas-cruz-fbi-warned/index.html

This happens every time...

That is not what the left wants. You hear it all the time, and even on this thread "why don't we take away everyone's guns like in the UK". It's delusional to think that the left will be happy with banning "assault rifles" (which is an arbitrary term) they make it very clear, that they won't stop until all guns are illegal.




Moderation my friend is what we need

That's correct.

But the sides don't trust each other. The NRA would give in if they weren't scared that the ultimate goal is to ban all guns.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:37:16 AM
Or the fact that most Dems can't hear the word gun be it a B.B. gun or an f35. You are part of the problem not the solution.
So explain if you can where exactly does this stop?? Do you need a Gatling gun too ?
Moderation my friend is what we need
is youíre answer.
Iím not against people having guns for recreation,protection, etc . But so far I havenít heard a reason why people need ar-15 bump stocks etc.. give me one
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:39:48 AM

This happens every time...



That's correct.

But the sides don't trust each other. The NRA would give in if they weren't scared that the ultimate goal is to ban all guns.
Only the republicans can change that...the option of waiting around has run out...(or sadly not?) reason why we have politicians??
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:43:47 AM
Only the republicans can change that...the option of waiting around has run out...(or sadly not?) reason why we have politicians??
Naaaah a good way to stop the mistrust would be for the Dems to stop perpetuating the lie that people can walk into a grocery and buy a gallon of milk and a gun.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:44:21 AM
RIP. Aaron Feis, The fearless football coach and security guard jumped in front of terrified students to protect them from becoming casualties of the bloodbath inside their #Florida school, witnesses said.

Coach #AaronFeis, himself a graduate of #MarjoryStoneman #DouglasHighSchool, sprang into action in #Parkland, Florida. When he heard the bullets he ran towards the line of fire and tried to take down the shooter by rushing him.(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/5db3e15695b57af7bc2472db780fb3b4.jpg)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:51:47 AM
Naaaah a good way to stop the mistrust would be for the Dems to stop perpetuating the lie that people can walk into a grocery and buy a gallon of milk and a gun.
A lie ? Here what you need to buy a gun in Walmart
ďBe able to pay for the gun. Theyíre funny that way.
Bring your driverís license or state ID card. Youíll need that.
Bring a recent (30Ė60 days) piece of mail that has your name & address on it that matches whatís on your ID. The mail should be a utility bill, rental/lease agreement or similar document. Some states require this to confirm your address. If your car registration matches you can use that.
Check with Wal*Mart or a local gun shop if there are charges to conduct the background check. In some states it may cost you an extra $19Ė$25.
Also ask the above if any special documents are required. Some states or jurisdictions require you to have a permit to purchase or some other document - a firearms owner ID (FOID) card (Illinois), Firearms Safety Certificate (California). Costs for these are extra and you may need to obtain the document in advance.
If buying a handgun bring a lockable gun case or purchase one from Wal-Mart with an inexpensive padlock or keylock. Most states require the gun to be in a locked container when transporting it. Do not assume the glove box or console to be a legal locked container.
You need to be able to answer NO to the following questions on Form 4473:
Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony?
Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony?
Are you a fugitive from justice?
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to a mental institution?
Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?
Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?
Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
Are you an alien illegally in the United States?
The dealer will contact the FBI background check system for approval to release the firearm to you. If you live in certain states (like California) there may be a waiting period before you can take possession of your firearmĒ
Looks pretty easy to me...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 15, 2018, 11:56:51 AM
Only the republicans can change that...the option of waiting around has run out...(or sadly not?) reason why we have politicians??
I blame both sides for creating that environment...
Naaaah a good way to stop the mistrust would be for the Dems to stop perpetuating the lie that people can walk into a grocery and buy a gallon of milk and a gun.
And when it comes to voting the D's cry foul about the millions of ppl that don't have govt ID.

Everyone plays it to their benefit.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 11:57:34 AM
Naaaah a good way to stop the mistrust would be for the Dems to stop perpetuating the lie that people can walk into a grocery and buy a gallon of milk and a gun.
And here you have Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/07/texas-gun-law-rules-and-regulations.html
And I quote
ďGenerally speaking, in Texas, as long as youíre of age [18] and can pass the background check, you can buy a gun,Ē Sparks told Fox News
Fox News man !!!not cnn or abc
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 12:06:03 PM
A twenty second Google search.. these need to be at least 50 times the price...(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180215/bafe27e02035a44d2e6d88110f8c5519.jpg)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 12:19:09 PM
A lie ? Here what you need to buy a gun in Walmart
ďBe able to pay for the gun. Theyíre funny that way.
Bring your driverís license or state ID card. Youíll need that.
Bring a recent (30Ė60 days) piece of mail that has your name & address on it that matches whatís on your ID. The mail should be a utility bill, rental/lease agreement or similar document. Some states require this to confirm your address. If your car registration matches you can use that.
Check with Wal*Mart or a local gun shop if there are charges to conduct the background check. In some states it may cost you an extra $19Ė$25.
Also ask the above if any special documents are required. Some states or jurisdictions require you to have a permit to purchase or some other document - a firearms owner ID (FOID) card (Illinois), Firearms Safety Certificate (California). Costs for these are extra and you may need to obtain the document in advance.
If buying a handgun bring a lockable gun case or purchase one from Wal-Mart with an inexpensive padlock or keylock. Most states require the gun to be in a locked container when transporting it. Do not assume the glove box or console to be a legal locked container.
You need to be able to answer NO to the following questions on Form 4473:
Are you under indictment or information in any court for a felony?
Have you ever been convicted in any court of a felony?
Are you a fugitive from justice?
Are you an unlawful user of, or addicted to, marijuana or any depressant, stimulant, narcotic drug, or any other controlled substance?
Have you ever been adjudicated mentally defective or committed to a mental institution?
Have you been discharged from the Armed Forces under dishonorable conditions?
Are you subject to a court order restraining you from harassing, stalking, or threatening your child or an intimate partner or child of such partner?
Have you ever been convicted in any court of a misdemeanor crime of domestic violence?
Have you ever renounced your United States citizenship?
Are you an alien illegally in the United States?
The dealer will contact the FBI background check system for approval to release the firearm to you. If you live in certain states (like California) there may be a waiting period before you can take possession of your firearmĒ
Looks pretty easy to me...
And here you have Fox News
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/07/texas-gun-law-rules-and-regulations.html (http://www.foxnews.com/us/2017/11/07/texas-gun-law-rules-and-regulations.html)
And I quote
ďGenerally speaking, in Texas, as long as youíre of age [18] and can pass the background check, you can buy a gun,Ē Sparks told Fox News
Fox News man !!!not cnn or abc
I was never asked for any of this stuff when buying milk. Saying that anyone can just walk in to buy a gun no questions asked and that it is easier to buy a gun than to vote is an outright lie. Making the false equivalence that you are doing is not helpful to anything. Don't blame the Rs when you are doing things which are breeding mistrust yourself.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 12:22:38 PM
I was never asked for any of this stuff when buying milk. Saying that anyone can just walk in to buy a gun no questions asked and that it is easier to buy a gun than to vote is an outright lie. Making the false equivalence that you are doing is not helpful to anything. Don't blame the Rs when you are doing things which are breeding mistrust yourself.
And how am I breeding mistrust?? All Iím saying is that most people would be able to buy a machine gun under these ďrestrictionsĒ
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 12:23:51 PM
I was never asked for any of this stuff when buying milk. Saying that anyone can just walk in to buy a gun no questions asked and that it is easier to buy a gun than to vote is an outright lie. Making the false equivalence that you are doing is not helpful to anything. Don't blame the Rs when you are doing things which are breeding mistrust yourself.
It is as easy as pie to give a simile. Buying an assault weapon is something that  is absurdly easy. For Democrats, Republicans, Whigs Tories and whoever.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 12:27:05 PM
The amount of people killed in mass shootings in the US, doesn't even come close to a fraction of the number of lives that could have been saved if citizens were allowed to have guns during the holocaust. It's delusional to think that another holocaust can't happen.
Can we leave this out of the discussion. It is 100% useless and nothing but a smokescreen to what is going on in this country!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 12:28:53 PM
It's actually useful to see how silly and desperate the arguments for gun culture get.. .
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 12:30:44 PM
It's actually useful to see how silly and desperate the arguments for gun culture get.. .
...but how does that help with a solution?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 12:31:52 PM
And how am I breeding mistrust?? All Iím saying is that most people would be able to buy a machine gun under these ďrestrictionsĒ
Yes. Most people do not go doing mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 12:35:32 PM
Yes. Most people do not go doing mass shootings.
And the people who do ....are not stopped by these restrictions!! So you agree we need more control on assault weapons?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 12:37:53 PM
It is as easy as pie to give a simile. Buying an assault weapon is something that  is absurdly easy. For Democrats, Republicans, Whigs Tories and whoever.
It should not be difficult for law abiding citizens, it should be difficult for criminals. If our background system worked, then that would be the case.
A deranged individual, is a lot more likely to spend all his money and all the money he can borrow (paddock) on the deadliest gun possible, because he plans on dying when he uses it.

You are clearly in favor of a full gun ban, but you want to start by making it extremely difficult for honest citizens to obtain.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 12:39:34 PM
And the people who do ....are not stopped by these restrictions!! So you agree we need more control on assault weapons?
Mass shooters should be allowed to get semi automatic hand guns, but not assault weapons? The fact that it's an "assault weapon" doesn't make a difference.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 12:40:38 PM
Nicholas Cruz was until 4:00 yesterday an honest citizen.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 12:41:57 PM
Nicholas Cruz was until 4:00 yesterday an honest citizen.
The FBI was actually tipped off about him months ago.

Are you suggesting an all out gun ban?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 12:42:02 PM
And the people who do ....are not stopped by these restrictions!! So you agree we need more control on assault weapons?
Yes I agree. One important point though is that almost each time there is one of these shootings it has come out that the FBI had dropped the ball.

 I also feel that those who do what you are doing and exaggerate how easy it is to get while also not acknowledging the way it being used as a political fottball s detrimental to the process as well as denying the prevalence of extremists on both sides are hurting the cause not advancing it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 12:43:15 PM
Mass shooters should be allowed to get semi automatic hand guns, but not assault weapons? The fact that it's an "assault weapon" doesn't make a difference.
You are trying to nitpick my words, and missing the point. Guns that kill many people quickly should be banned. Simple enough for you ?? Which one exactly is not the discussion here
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 15, 2018, 12:44:11 PM
I'm suggesting that it should be as easy to get a double tractor trailer license hauling hazmat as getting a license for a gun capable of mass murder...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
Nicholas Cruz was until 4:00 yesterday an honest citizen.

Fact check:
PANTS ON FIRE
That is a slippery slope argument and frankly not really true. They may try to make all guns illegal but they would need an amendment for that which is not happening in the near future. I don't know enough about guns to be able to give clear guidelines, but some more restrictions do sound reasonable. We are constantly having shooters who as individuals should never have had access to guns. Something is broken if we can't stop a guy calling himself a professional school shooter from getting a gun.

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/a512a308e6ba9e97559b8d749af7d1c7.png)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 12:45:08 PM
Mass shooters should be allowed to get semi automatic hand guns, but not assault weapons? The fact that it's an "assault weapon" doesn't make a difference.
You should stop because you don't understand guns. Do you have any idea of the killing power of an assault rifle vs a handgun? The reason these mass killings are not worse (I can't believe I am say this) is because these insane people are just that and don't think straight.   
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 12:46:39 PM
Yes I agree. One important point though is that almost each time there is one of these shootings it has come out that the FBI had dropped the ball.

 I also feel that those who do what you are doing and exaggerate how easy it is to get while also not acknowledging the way it being used as a political fottball s detrimental to the process as well as denying the prevalence of extremists on both sides are hurting the cause not advancing it.
I commend you for saying this , and I agree on most...
Except that according to my research the ďbackground checkĒ is pretty meaningless if a person ex. Cruz paddock. Havenít committed a crime yet...making it easy for them to acquire these guns.
I agree on all other points
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 12:49:17 PM
I commend you for saying this , and I agree on most...
Except that according to my research the ďbackground checkĒ is pretty meaningless if a person ex. Cruz paddock. Havenít committed a crime yet...making it easy for them to acquire these guns.
I agree on all other points
The exact mechanics of how to improve or revamp the background check system would be able to be worked out easily if the extremists on both sides would be willing to discuss things.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 12:54:53 PM
You are trying to nitpick my words, and missing the point. Guns that kill many people quickly should be banned. Simple enough for you ?? Which one exactly is not the discussion here
I'm not trying to nitpick, I'm trying to find where you stand. At what point will you say, there is enough gun control?

I'm suggesting that it should be as easy to get a double tractor trailer license hauling hazmat as getting a license for a gun capable of mass murder...
double tractor trailer license hauling hazmat license is to make sure you have the skills to operate plus a background check. If it was as easy to operate as a gun, all you would need is a background check.

You should stop because you don't understand guns. Do you have any idea of the killing power of an assault rifle vs a handgun? The reason these mass killings are not worse (I can't believe I am say this) is because these insane people are just that and don't think straight.   
I'm trying to figure out where he draws the line, because most leftists would not be willing to actually draw the line at anything less than a full gun ban.

Except that according to my research the ďbackground checkĒ is pretty meaningless if a person ex. Cruz paddock. Havenít committed a crime yet...making it easy for them to acquire these guns.
Making it more difficult/expensive won't stop them, they are determined sick individuals.

I as much as everyone here would love to stop all shootings, but making it more difficult will not stop a deranged individual.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 01:05:50 PM



 Making it more difficult/expensive won't stop them, they are determined sick individuals.

I as much as everyone here would love to stop all shootings, but making it more difficult will not stop a deranged individual.
Conjecture.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 01:06:30 PM
I'm trying to figure out where he draws the line, because most leftists would not be willing to actually draw the line at anything less than a full gun ban.
We are aware there are those that want to ban guns. They are a small minority. We are talking about a common sense approach. Banning assault rifles and HCM is a common sense approach. We are so FU as a nation we can even agree to ban bump stocks.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 01:33:19 PM
We are aware there are those that want to ban guns. They are a small minority. We are talking about a common sense approach. Banning assault rifles and HCM is a common sense approach. We are so FU as a nation we can even agree to ban bump stocks.
It doesn't take much to be able to do what a bump stock does without having a bump stock.
Again, a knee jerk reaction, that doesn't solve the problem.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 01:36:55 PM
It doesn't take much to be able to do what a bump stock does without having a bump stock.
Again, a knee jerk reaction, that doesn't solve the problem.
The problem is you and those like you. You are completely clueless when it comes to guns. You are just repeating the nonsense you have heard.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 01:38:24 PM
The problem is you and those like you. You are completely clueless when it comes to guns. You are just repeating the nonsense you have heard.
Instead of just calling me clueless, why can't we have civilized discussion?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 01:45:20 PM
Instead of just calling me clueless, why can't we have civilized discussion?
We can as I pointed out to you the fire power of an assault rifle. These mass shooters are not the sharpest tack in the box. They use what they see and are readily available. If you ban bump stocks they are not going to build one on their own. If you ban HCM the same thing. Your only response is that will not work. How is that an honest discussion?

Lets give this a try. Give me one practical purpose for an AR assault rifle? Stopping the next holocaust is not a valid answer. 
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 02:08:58 PM
We can as I pointed out to you the fire power of an assault rifle. These mass shooters are not the sharpest tack in the box. They use what they see and are readily available. If you ban bump stocks they are not going to build one on their own. If you ban HCM the same thing. Your only response is that will not work. How is that an honest discussion?

Lets give this a try. Give me one practical purpose for an AR assault rifle? Stopping the next holocaust is not a valid answer.
well what if im out hunting and the bear gets annoyed that i hit him with my 9mm peashooter im gonna have to have an ar15 for self defense
(or something along those lines of creativity)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 02:12:41 PM
well what if im out hunting and the bear gets annoyed that i hit him with my 9mm peashooter im gonna have to have an ar15 for self defense
(or something along those lines of creativity)
That's why I own a .300 Weatherby Magnum and not an AR. They do make real hunting rifles.  ;)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 02:19:01 PM
That's why I own a .300 Weatherby Magnum and not an AR. They do make real hunting rifles.  ;)
thats more of  a  long distance weapon for a fellow who has aim making it premeditated and  no longer self defense. the ar15  is for self defense when the bear is  charging at you
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 15, 2018, 02:20:37 PM
well what if im out hunting and the bear gets annoyed that i hit him with my 9mm peashooter im gonna have to have an ar15 for self defense
(or something along those lines of creativity)
Meh. Just rip him up with your bear hands.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 02:25:13 PM
thats more of  a  long distance weapon for a fellow who has aim making it premeditated and  no longer self defense. the ar15  is for self defense when the bear is  charging at you
I would laugh but unfortunately some use this logic.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 02:27:21 PM
I would laugh but unfortunately some use this logic.
thats exactly why you should laugh.
(im also expecting a like)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 02:28:46 PM
(im also expecting a like)
Like!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 02:29:33 PM
Like!!!
i have 3 hungry kids thats not gonna work
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 02:32:58 PM
i have 3 hungry kids thats not gonna work
Contact @Freddie  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 02:38:26 PM
 
Contact @Freddie  :)
you cheap.... ;D
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 02:40:30 PM
We can as I pointed out to you the fire power of an assault rifle. These mass shooters are not the sharpest tack in the box. They use what they see and are readily available. If you ban bump stocks they are not going to build one on their own. If you ban HCM the same thing. Your only response is that will not work. How is that an honest discussion?

Lets give this a try. Give me one practical purpose for an AR assault rifle? Stopping the next holocaust is not a valid answer.
Hunting? Home defense? Yes that's what most people who own them, use them for.

That's why I own a .300 Weatherby Magnum and not an AR. They do make real hunting rifles.  ;)
Do you have another gun for home defense?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 02:49:35 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 02:52:05 PM
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 02:52:10 PM
Hunting? Home defense? Yes that's what most people who own them, use them for.
 Do you have another gun for home defense?
ar15 is not a hunting rifle . .223 cal wont really take down a bear unless you stick it in his mouth
its a weapon that was created specifically for the military but was adapted to be a best seller
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 02:55:16 PM
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro)
You didnít even read the full article
ďeven the NRA backs certain gun control proposals, particularly with regard to fully automatic machine gunsĒ
Now defend yourself
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 15, 2018, 02:56:56 PM
Yes I agree. One important point though is that almost each time there is one of these shootings it has come out that the FBI had dropped the ball.
Fact check:
PANTS ON FIRE
The thing Tapper reported is not dropping the ball IMO. You have no idea how many of these type of things go to the FBI, or what the difficulties are in identifying some random internet commenter (even if they use their name). It doesn't mean it can't be done, but if you have to do it for every potential threat, you'll never get anything done.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 03:01:43 PM
Hunting? Home defense? Yes that's what most people who own them, use them for.
 Do you have another gun for home defense?
Those who say they use an AR for home defense or hunting should not be allowed to own guns. That would be like you using the Torah or me the Bible as a doorstop. Yes it will work but we would both be idiots.

My weapon of choice is the .45 Colt for home defense. I would have no issue using my 9mm Browning either. I could go on but won't.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 03:04:50 PM
ar15 is not a hunting rifle . .223 cal wont really take down a bear unless you stick it in his mouth
http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/ (http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/) I don't hunt, but it seems to me that hunters like the AR15

You didnít even read the full article
ďeven the NRA backs certain gun control proposals, particularly with regard to fully automatic machine gunsĒ
Now defend yourself
I read the entire article before posting it. All I was saying is that IMO the second amendment would cover fully automatic guns, I don't claim with certainty that it's true, I even said that the supreme court disagrees. (I am in no way an expert in constitutional law)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 03:08:24 PM
http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/ (http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/) I don't hunt, but it seems to me that hunters like the AR15
 I read the entire article before posting it. All I was saying is that IMO the second amendment would cover fully automatic guns, I don't claim with certainty that it's true, I even said that the supreme court disagrees. (I am in no way an expert in constitutional law)
So even the nra supports a ban but you smarty head donít. I get where weíre standing...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 03:10:54 PM
http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/ (http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/) I don't hunt, but it seems to me that hunters like the AR15
 I read the entire article before posting it. All I was saying is that IMO the second amendment would cover fully automatic guns, I don't claim with certainty that it's true, I even said that the supreme court disagrees. (I am in no way an expert in constitutional law)
not the hunters that are out hunting for game . just the ones that are there for the pictures.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 03:18:35 PM
not the hunters that are out hunting for game . just the ones that are there for the pictures.
The point was, @ChaimMoskowitz asked what use there is for an AR15 and I gave an answer, you can disagree, but that doesn't give you a right to take away someone elses rights.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 03:19:23 PM
So even the nra supports a ban but you smarty head donít. I get where weíre standing...
It looks like a PR stunt by the NRA, this only happened a few years ago.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 03:20:39 PM
The point was, @ChaimMoskowitz asked what use there is for an AR15 and I gave an answer, you can disagree, but that doesn't give you a right to take away someone elses rights.
all i am saying is dont call it a hunting rifle if thats not what it is.  you can use a paring knife to cut steak if you had to but thats not what its meant for and youre gonna have a hard  time as well
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 15, 2018, 03:27:19 PM
It looks like a PR stunt by the NRA, this only happened a few years ago.
Definitely a PR stunt but you are still not right...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 03:28:52 PM
The point was, @ChaimMoskowitz asked what use there is for an AR15 and I gave an answer, you can disagree, but that doesn't give you a right to take away someone elses rights.
I said ďpracticalĒ.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 03:30:37 PM
I said ďpracticalĒ.
You don't find it practical, others clearly do find it practical - 5 million others - you have full right to disagree with them, you do not have a right to take away their rights.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 03:37:02 PM
You don't find it practical, others clearly do find it practical - 5 million others - you have full right to disagree with them, you do not have a right to take away their rights.
So now you are switching gears to their rights.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 03:38:51 PM
So now you are switching gears to their rights.
I always said it was about rights. Do you believe the government should take away peoples rights?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 03:40:11 PM
I always said it was about rights. Do you believe the government should take away peoples rights?
You might want to read up on SCOTUS decisions.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mercaz1 on February 15, 2018, 04:02:02 PM
plenty of "rights" have been taken away
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 15, 2018, 04:03:42 PM
plenty of "rights" have been taken away
Lame
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mercaz1 on February 15, 2018, 04:07:50 PM
what is lame about that
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 04:14:10 PM
plenty of "rights" have been taken away
Is that your excuse for full government control like DPRK?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 04:16:06 PM
Is that your excuse for full government control like DPRK?
thats how it works ? limit gun ownership and the next step isbecome a dictator with concentration camps torturing millions of citizens? in that case please do not take away anyones gun righs its just not worth it!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 04:21:33 PM
thats how it works ? limit gun ownership and the next step isbecome a dictator with concentration camps torturing millions of citizens? in that case please do not take away anyones gun righs its just not worth it!!!
There needs to be clear boundaries that the government can't cross. We can discuss where the line should be drawn, but if you make light of the idea of people having rights that the government should not infringe on, we are heading directly toward a authoritarian government controlling every move we make.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 15, 2018, 04:54:35 PM
There needs to be clear boundaries that the government can't cross. We can discuss where the line should be drawn, but if you make light of the idea of people having rights that the government should not infringe on, we are heading directly toward a authoritarian government controlling every move we make.
+1 whether you think it's silly or not, that is the point of the second amendment, and it's not going away.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 05:39:17 PM
The thing Tapper reported is not dropping the ball IMO. You have no idea how many of these type of things go to the FBI, or what the difficulties are in identifying some random internet commenter (even if they use their name). It doesn't mean it can't be done, but if you have to do it for every potential threat, you'll never get anything done.
That may be but to say he was an honest citizen until today is a pants on fire Trumpian lie. I fully support that there is much to do to to get a handle on guns. Being dishonest like that does not help the cause.

See the newer thread. There was so much on this guy. I understand how things can fall through cracks. But that is what happened with just about every single one of these cases. It seems like there may be a need for improvement or a revamp of the background check system. This guy was suspended for violence and binging ammo.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 05:40:32 PM
Is that your excuse for full government control like DPRK?
Slippery slope fallacy.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 05:41:18 PM
There needs to be clear boundaries that the government can't cross. We can discuss where the line should be drawn, but if you make light of the idea of people having rights that the government should not infringe on, we are heading directly toward a authoritarian government controlling every move we make.
SCOTUS has set boundaries. They are not the ones you are prescribing.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 05:41:48 PM
+1 whether you think it's silly or not, that is the point of the second amendment, and it's not going away.
SCOTUS has set boundaries. They are not the ones you are prescribing.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 05:44:49 PM
Slippery slope fallacy.
-1
If his opinion is that individual rights are not very important, then we are headed for an all out DPRK
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 05:49:13 PM
Does the second amendment cover ammunition?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 05:51:02 PM
Does the second amendment cover ammunition?
is ammo arms?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 05:53:36 PM
-1
If his opinion is that individual rights are not very important, then we are headed for an all out DPRK
False absolute fallacy.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 05:59:01 PM
False absolute fallacy.
I'm not sure why you disagree, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 06:01:57 PM
The R's say the problem is we need to enforce the laws we have and not enact more. I guess they are good with FL laws were this killer cannot buy a beer or a handgun but is allowed to buy a military style assault weapon. Insanity at its best!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 06:06:07 PM
I'm not sure why you disagree, but I guess we'll agree to disagree.
There can be curtailment of guns without destroying the 2nd amendment.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 06:11:46 PM
The big question is what can be enacted which will actually be effective. Yes, any gun law may involve curtailing a freedom. If it saves lives then it may be worth it. Is saving 25 lives a year while leaving the remaining thousands of gun murders unaddressed worth curtailing freedoms for or should we really work on getting a real thought through solution which may help many more than that? Is there a point in a shoot from the hip solution in reaction to a specific tragedy over working on something which will actually address the problem? All of the finger pointing and straight out dishonesty from everyone trying to use the emotions for political gain for their agenda is not only unhelpful but detrimental.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 06:14:48 PM
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 06:18:49 PM
There can be curtailment of guns without destroying the 2nd amendment.
Agreed, I don't have an issue with putting that up for discussion, I do have a massive issue with someone eluding to "individual rights are not important"
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 06:22:16 PM
Agreed, I don't have an issue with putting that up for discussion, I do have a massive issue with someone eluding to "individual rights are not important"
i dont think anyone here ever said that
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 06:24:00 PM
i dont think anyone here ever said that
Of course we did. None of us care about rights.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 06:25:03 PM
Of course we did. None of us care about rights.
can you ever agree with anybody about anything?!? :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 06:27:19 PM
can you ever agree with anybody about anything?!? :)
No.  :P
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 06:29:38 PM
No.  :P
sometimes i wonder if @ChaimMoskowitz  is just saying things he doesnt really believe just to rile up the masses..... i prefere to say that rather than its his true beliefs
nailed you!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 06:38:11 PM
nailed you!
He's been pretty reasonable here.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 15, 2018, 06:38:19 PM
i dont think anyone here ever said that
Thats the way I understood this

plenty of "rights" have been taken away
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 15, 2018, 06:41:25 PM
My issue with the pro-gun arguments I'm seeing here is that you're essentially saying there's no politically viable solution to this problem - and we're okay with that. All this talk of 'lets not make rash decisions, let's think it through and come up with a moderate solution', etc - it's nonsense. This is not a new problem. Anything that can be thought of to fix it has been thought of. If the Republicans proposed this mythical moderate solution today, it wouldn't be the Democrats stopping it. So again it comes down to saying we're okay with the problem because xyz. And at least if everyone were honest about that fact, I'd have some measure of respect, even if I disagree.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 06:45:43 PM
Are you allowed to carry a gun in Israel?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 06:47:11 PM
My issue with the pro-gun arguments I'm seeing here is that you're essentially saying there's no politically viable solution to this problem - and we're okay with that. All this talk of 'lets not make rash decisions, let's think it through and come up with a moderate solution', etc - it's nonsense. This is not a new problem. Anything that can be thought of to fix it has been thought of. If the Republicans proposed this mythical moderate solution today, it wouldn't be the Democrats stopping it. So again it comes down to saying we're okay with the problem because xyz. And at least if everyone were honest about that fact, I'd have some measure of respect, even if I disagree.
I would love for someone, anyone R or D, to actually get up and purpose a half reasonable bill rather than them all blowing hot air each time this happens or proposing bills they know can't get passed to score political points. Unfortunately that is what politicians do best.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 15, 2018, 06:56:14 PM
Are you allowed to carry a gun in Israel?
Very difficult to get a carry license unless you're a security guard, tour guide, etc
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 06:57:22 PM
Very difficult to get a carry license unless you're a security guard, tour guide, etc
What about just owning a gun, same?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 15, 2018, 06:58:50 PM
I would love for someone, anyone R or D, to actually get up and purpose a half reasonable bill rather than them all blowing hot air each time this happens or proposing bills they know can't get passed to score political points. Unfortunately that is what politicians do best.
There's a silly equivalency though. Dems don't profess to want what you call a half reasonable bill', not are they in power. Republicans on the other hand...

I don't have to side with the liberal idea of fully banning guns to feel like the Republicans are dropping the ball here in a big way.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 07:09:05 PM
There's a silly equivalency though. Dems don't profess to want what you call a half reasonable bill', not are they in power. Republicans on the other hand...

I don't have to side with the liberal idea of fully banning guns to feel like the Republicans are dropping the ball here in a big way.
Yes they are dropping the ball in a big way.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: chevron on February 15, 2018, 07:19:32 PM
Gun control is never the answer. Arm teachers
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 15, 2018, 07:23:37 PM
Gun control is never the answer. Arm teachers
So your answer is you need more guns to stop gun violence?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 07:38:48 PM
There's a silly equivalency though. Dems don't profess to want what you call a half reasonable bill', not are they in power. Republicans on the other hand...

I don't have to side with the liberal idea of fully banning guns to feel like the Republicans are dropping the ball here in a big way.
What do you think I call a half reasonable bill? I would call that anything that has a semi-decent chance of passing whether it would be my preferred bill or not. I actually do not have a preferred bill because I am way too ignorant about guns to be able to give anything specific. I agree that something needs to change most likely in the direction of more restrictions, but it is possible that fewer restrictions will also be better than it is now where the criminals have better access than law-abiding citizens. I know that I am being vague over here because I am unsure myself. The only reason I would consider a total gun ban unreasonable is because it can't pass and would be struck down by SCOTUS even if it did. Therefore to propose such a thing is not called trying to do something but rather trying to score political points. Somewhat like the Rs voting to repeal Obamacare when they knew it would get vetoed.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 07:52:08 PM
He's been pretty reasonable here.
was just playinbg ive been mostly agreeing in this thread
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 15, 2018, 10:51:59 PM
What about just owning a gun, same?
Not sure, but I don't think it's easy either
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 15, 2018, 10:57:08 PM
i was under the impression that anyone who has a IDF background has an easier time
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:43:47 PM

What about a tank? Can you conceal carry that?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 15, 2018, 11:46:38 PM
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 16, 2018, 12:32:42 AM
I'm so glad I read this thread. I completely changed my long held opinions based on the reasoned arguments put forward here.

Let's do healthcare next.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 16, 2018, 12:34:09 AM
I'm so glad I read this thread. I completely changed my long held opinions based on the reasoned arguments put forward here.

Let's do healthcare next.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:36:05 AM
I'm so glad I read this thread. I completely changed my long held opinions based on the reasoned arguments put forward here.
That will happen for most who believe it cant happen in their backyard but does.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 16, 2018, 12:40:17 AM
Oh, Kimmel
https://youtu.be/Z0vLiQLpsc8
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 16, 2018, 01:02:52 AM
Just wondering..does anyone here think that Is don't care about ppl getting killed by mass shootings?

And do those ppl believe that Da don't care about ppl murdered by illegals??

My point?

When either of them happen, the opposing positions go on a hellfire mission on the other, forcing them to defend at all costs.

That's why there can be no agreement on Gun control.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Torkay on February 16, 2018, 03:42:50 AM
i was under the impression that anyone who has a IDF background has an easier time
Once thereís an idf background you need a reason for having one and to submit an application.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Emkay on February 16, 2018, 06:21:40 AM
https://nypost.com/2018/02/15/israels-gun-control-laws-can-make-the-us-safer-too/

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/Articles/Article.aspx/21714
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Abelefko1 on February 16, 2018, 06:27:44 AM
From Wikipedia
ďGun laws in Israel are comprehensive despite soldiers being allowed to carry their service weapons on or off duty. Civilians must obtain a firearms licence to lawfully acquire, possess, sell or transfer firearms and ammunition.

Only a small group of people are eligible for firearms licenses: certain retired military personnel, police officers or prison guards; residents of frontier towns (in the West Bank and the Golan Heights) or those who often work in such towns; and licensed hunters and animal-control officers. Age requirements vary: 20 or 21 for those who completed military service or civil service equivalent, 27 otherwise, and 45 for non-citizens. Firearm license applicants must have been a resident of Israel for at least three consecutive years, pass a background check (criminal, health, and mental history), establish a genuine reason for possessing a firearm (such as self-defense, hunting, or sport), and pass a weapons-training course.[51] Around 40% of applications for firearms permits are rejected.[52]

Those holding firearms licenses must renew them and pass a shooting course every three years, and undergo psychological assessment at least once every six years. Security guards must pass these tests to renew their license to carry firearms belonging to their employers.[53] Applicants must demonstrate that they have a safe at their residence in which to keep the firearm. Permits are given only for personal use, and holders for self-defense purposes may own only one handgun and purchase an annual supply of 50 cartridges (although more may be purchased to replace rounds used at a firing range).[54]

In addition to private licenses of firearms, organizations can issue carry-licenses to their members or employees for activity related to that organization (e.g. security companies, shooting clubs, other workplaces). Members of officially recognized shooting clubs (e.g.: practical shooting, Olympic shooting) are eligible for personal licenses allowing them to possess additional firearms (small bore rifles, handguns, air rifles and air pistols) and ammunition after demonstrating a need and fulfilling minimum membership time and activity requirements. Unlicensed individuals who want to engage in practice shooting are allowed supervised use of handguns at firing ranges.

Most individuals who are licensed to possess handguns may carry them loaded in public, concealed or openly.[51]

In 2005, there were 237,000 private citizens and 154,000 security guards licensed to carry firearms. Another 34,000 Israelis own guns illegally due to their failure to renew their firearms license.[55][56] In 2007, there were estimated to be 500,000 licensed small arms held by civilians, in addition to 1,757,500 by the military, and 26,040 by the police.Ē
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 07:33:56 AM
18 school shootings this year already. Keep doing nothing and expect different results?  ::) ::) ::)
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html

1 school shooting is too many but As pointed out in the article,  exaggerating the numbers doesn't help the debate. 1

Unfortunately, I think @dan hit it on the head in the beginning of this thread,  we've become numb to these incidents. I heard several interviews of students at the school, they talked as if they expected this to happen,  going so far sayinh how  they used to joke that if their school would have a shooting, this killer would be most likely to perpetrate it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 09:13:24 AM
1 school shooting is too many but As pointed out in the article,  exaggerating the numbers doesn't help the debate.
Would you consider a kid who takes a gun to school and kills himself a school shooting?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 09:17:06 AM
Just wondering..does anyone here think that Is don't care about ppl getting killed by mass shootings?

And do those ppl believe that Da don't care about ppl murdered by illegals??

My point?

When either of them happen, the opposing positions go on a hellfire mission on the other, forcing them to defend at all costs.

That's why there can be no agreement on Gun control.
The reason there can be no agreement is because most are taking political positions. Those political views go out the window when it happens to them.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 09:25:46 AM
Would you consider a kid who takes a gun to school and kills himself a school shooting?
No, not in the context of this conversation.
Now my turn, if all gun violence in the usa was intentionaly self inflicted, would you still think we have a gun issue?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: jj1000 on February 16, 2018, 09:26:42 AM
(https://i.imgur.com/AaWzFlv.png)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 09:35:39 AM
No, not in the context of this conversation.
Now my turn, if all gun violence in the usa was intentionaly self inflicted, would you still think we have a gun issue?
1 - The context of this thread is "mass" shootings. So if I understand you correctly, you do consider it a school shooting?
2 - If the numbers were the same (deaths every year caused by guns) absolutely it would be a gun issue. That does not mean there are not other issues involved just like now.

Ok now your turn again to the follow up.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 09:42:11 AM
There's a silly equivalency though. Dems don't profess to want what you call a half reasonable bill', not are they in power. Republicans on the other hand...

I don't have to side with the liberal idea of fully banning guns to feel like the Republicans are dropping the ball here in a big way.
The Ds had a filibuster proof congress from 2009-2011, and they didn't pass gun control. The Ds have no interest in passing any laws, because they would have to get into details and they don't want to, it would also mean that they have no talking points when the next shooting happens, because gun control won't stop the shootings.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 09:44:59 AM
The Ds had a filibuster proof congress from 2009-2011, and they didn't pass gun control. The Ds have no interest in passing any laws, because they would have to get into details and they don't want to, it would also mean that they have no talking points when the next shooting happens, because gun control won't stop the shootings.

https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro (https://www.dailywire.com/news/27204/gun-control-isnt-policy-its-empty-slogan-designed-ben-shapiro)
Don't you get it? Your mentality is the problem. You can't separate politics from your thinking.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yuneeq on February 16, 2018, 09:56:54 AM
Non-PC opinion- Banning guns is just a convenient way of ignoring the gun violence caused by minorities. Remove their numbers from the statistics and we'd be having a drastically different discussion.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 10:08:42 AM
Non-PC opinion- Banning guns is just a convenient way of ignoring the gun violence caused by minorities. Remove their numbers from the statistics and we'd be having a drastically different discussion.
We are not talking banning guns.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yuneeq on February 16, 2018, 10:11:21 AM
We are not talking banning guns.

Same applies to the "gun control" discussion.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 10:13:25 AM
Same applies to the "gun control" discussion.
You might want to check your figures. AR's are involved in these stats you are talking about?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 16, 2018, 11:39:01 AM
You might want to check your figures. AR's are involved in these stats you are talking about?

ChaimMoskowitz, can you clarify your position on gun control? What law is it exactly that you want Congress to pass?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 16, 2018, 11:43:10 AM
ChaimMoskowitz, can you clarify your position on gun control? What law is it exactly that you want Congress to pass?
What about something along the lines that Israel has?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 11:46:34 AM
ChaimMoskowitz, can you clarify your position on gun control? What law is it exactly that you want Congress to pass?
I would ban assault rifles, HCM and bump stocks is a no brainer. To me it would have zero affect on the legal gun owner.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 11:47:03 AM
What about something along the lines that Israel has?
You know what they say about great minds!  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 11:55:23 AM
OK, and what say you about the Virginia Tech shooter who used a Glock 19?
I would say we have many gun problems and we need to start somewhere. Doing nothing is unacceptable. VT is a classic example of our system and laws failing us. He should have never been allowed to own a gun.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:04:18 PM
I would say we have many gun problems and we need to start somewhere. Doing nothing is unacceptable.
I agree with you.

I take issue with the solution being something that "feels like it's helping" VS coming up with solutions that people may not want to hear, but can actually solve an underlying issue without creating more issues.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mercaz1 on February 16, 2018, 12:07:02 PM
I would ban assault rifles, HCM and bump stocks is a no brainer. To me it would have zero affect on the legal gun owner.

What capacity is HCM?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:08:44 PM
I agree with you.

I take issue with the solution being something that "feels like it's helping" VS coming up with solutions that people may not want to hear, but can actually solve an underlying issue without creating more issues.
No one knows at this point what will work. Common sense approaches is where to start. You have the president saying mental health is the issue but signs a bill that makes it easier for people with problems to get guns. Instead those like you speaking out against it you choose to look the other way.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:09:08 PM
What capacity is HCM?
High Capacity Magazines
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mercaz1 on February 16, 2018, 12:09:38 PM
High Capacity Magazines

I meant how many bullets in a HCM?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 16, 2018, 12:11:40 PM
...solutions that people may not want to hear, but can actually solve an underlying issue without creating more issues.
You keep saying that. Care to take a stab at what that solution might be?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:12:40 PM
No one knows at this point what will work. Common sense approaches is where to start. You have the president saying mental health is the issue but signs a bill that makes it easier for people with problems to get guns. Instead those like you speaking out against it you choose to look the other way.
Because it's a myth. You don't get to take away peoples rights without due process.



The proof from VT is that putting limitations on guns does little to help when the shooter is in a gun free zone with no opposition.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:13:11 PM
I meant how many bullets in a HCM?
That is up for debate. I would hope everyone could agree 50-100+ rounds would fit the description of HCM.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:14:08 PM
You keep saying that. Care to take a stab at what that solution might be?
Stop making schools and colleges "Gun Free Zones" that's the common denominator in almost all mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:16:36 PM
Because it's a myth. You don't get to take away peoples rights without due process.



The proof from VT is that putting limitations on guns does little to help when the shooter is in a gun free zone with no opposition.
Please stop with your nonsense when you don't understand the issue. SCOTUS has already ruled you can have limitations on guns. VT was a mentally ill person that should have not been able to buy a gun. Why don't you speak out against the President who made it easier for people with problems to buy guns. You are the problem. Just face facts.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:17:33 PM
Stop making schools and colleges "Gun Free Zones" that's the common denominator in almost all mass shootings.
Sorry but you are a complete idiot when it comes to this subject.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:17:49 PM
You keep saying that. Care to take a stab at what that solution might be?
bad choice of words for this context. Ban knives!!!!

Even though the question was not addressed to me, my answer is that I do not have enough knowledge of guns to come up with any answer but would would love for anyone R or D to go ahead and actually propose a bill which has a chance of passing with negotiation and amendments etc. and not be overturned by SCOTUS. The Rs have not proposed anything of substance and the Ds have only proposed things which can't pass or would be overturned. That means neither is serious about the issue and only wishes to score points. I am very open to a Dem bill with restrictions on guns.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: WiddleAvi on February 16, 2018, 12:19:43 PM
Stop making schools and colleges "Gun Free Zones" that's the common denominator in almost all mass shootings.
It is not the common denominator. Orlando shooting was in a club. Vegas. Southerland Springs Church shooting.

I think assault weapons and bump stocks are more of a common denominator.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 16, 2018, 12:19:54 PM
Stop making schools and colleges "Gun Free Zones" that's the common denominator in almost all mass shootings.
Sutherland Springs? Vegas? Orlando? San Bernadino? Washington Navy Yard? Aurora? Fort Hood?

I'm just listing the ones that weren't school/college. Don't know the details regarding gun laws in each location.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:20:13 PM
Sorry but you are a complete idiot when it comes to this subject.
He is just regurgitating the opinions he hears.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:21:16 PM
Please stop with your nonsense when you don't understand the issue. SCOTUS has already ruled you can have limitations on guns. VT was a mentally ill person that should have not been able to buy a gun. Why don't you speak out against the President who made it easier for people with problems to buy guns. You are the problem. Just face facts.
https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair (https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair) Even the ACLU wanted the Obama law repealed.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: WiddleAvi on February 16, 2018, 12:21:29 PM
bad choice of words for this context. Ban knives!!!!

Even though the question was not addressed to me, my answer is that I do not have enough knowledge of guns to come up with any answer but would would love for anyone R or D to go ahead and actually propose a bill which has a chance of passing with negotiation and amendments etc. and not be overturned by SCOTUS. The Rs have not proposed anything of substance and the Ds have only proposed things which can't pass or would be overturned. That means neither is serious about the issue and only wishes to score points. I am very open to a Dem bill with restrictions on guns.

Why would banning assault weapons be overturned ? There already was a ban on fully automatic weapons that was allowed to expire about 10 years ago.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:23:08 PM
The #1 common denominator is mass shootings is a GUN. So lets not address the GUN problem but instead just spew nonsense.
Stop making schools and colleges "Gun Free Zones" that's the common denominator in almost all mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:24:53 PM
It is not the common denominator. Orlando shooting was in a club. Vegas. Southerland Springs Church shooting.

I think assault weapons and bump stocks are more of a common denominator.
Per Floridaís concealed carry law, those with a license to carry may not carry their firearms into an establishment that serves alcohol. - Orlando shooting was a gun free zone.
Vegas is an exception, thats why I said almost all.
Southerland Springs Church was a gun free zone.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: zale on February 16, 2018, 12:24:57 PM
No one knows at this point what will work. Common sense approaches is where to start. You have the president saying mental health is the issue but signs a bill that makes it easier for people with problems to get guns. Instead those like you speaking out against it you choose to look the other way.

Here is what I think:

Every time a shooting like this happens, there are sensible Conservatives who are willing to pass a bill for the gun laws you suggested. But all that immediately goes out the window when the Left comes along with articles like this:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html?referer=https://www.google.com/

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:26:30 PM
https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair (https://www.aclu.org/blog/disability-rights/gun-control-laws-should-be-fair) Even the ACLU wanted the Obama law repealed.
I don't give a rats *ss what the ACLU thinks. You only use them when they agree with you, totally dishonest. Now address the issue. Why don't you speak out against the president for signing that law or do you agree with him?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:27:45 PM
Why would banning assault weapons be overturned ? There already was a ban on fully automatic weapons that was allowed to expire about 10 years ago.
I don't think it would. They passed on reviewing some state assault weapon bans as recently as Nov.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:28:10 PM
Sutherland Springs? Vegas? Orlando? San Bernadino? Washington Navy Yard? Aurora? Fort Hood?

I'm just listing the ones that weren't school/college. Don't know the details regarding gun laws in each location.
Other than Vegas, they were all in gun free zones.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:28:53 PM
Here is what I think:

Every time a shooting like this happens, there are sensible Conservatives who are willing to pass a bill for the gun laws you suggested. But all that immediately goes out the window when the Left comes along with articles like this:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html?referer=https://www.google.com/
I think we can all agree there are extremist on both sides. What if there was a bill to ban bump stocks and no other issues attached. Do you think it would pass?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:29:01 PM
Here is what I think:

Every time a shooting like this happens, there are sensible Conservatives who are willing to pass a bill for the gun laws you suggested. But all that immediately goes out the window when the Left comes along with articles like this:

https://mobile.nytimes.com/2017/10/05/opinion/guns-second-amendment-nra.html?referer=https://www.google.com/



+10000000000000000
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:29:38 PM
I think we can all agree there are extremist on both sides. What if there was a bill to ban bump stocks and no other issues attached. Do you think it would pass?
I think it could.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:32:12 PM
I don't give a rats *ss what the ACLU thinks. You only use them when they agree with you, totally dishonest. Now address the issue. Why don't you speak out against the president for signing that law or do you agree with him?
I agree with him that we can't arbitrarily take away peoples rights without due process. Do you disagree with that or do you believe the law did not do that?

The #1 common denominator is mass shootings is a GUN. So lets not address the GUN problem but instead just spew nonsense.
The #1 common denominator in ALL murders is people, lets ban people.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 16, 2018, 12:34:27 PM
Other than Vegas, they were all in gun free zones.
so lets say youre in a non gun free zone and some maniac walks in with a AR15  and you stop him before he kills 17  people ...
he still killed a lot more than he could have  had the assault rifle been illegal . which is why assault weapons need to be banned .
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 16, 2018, 12:35:36 PM
Other than Vegas, they were all in gun free zones.
You've only addressed the first 3. Explain how the last 4 were gun-free zones.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:40:17 PM
so lets say youre in a non gun free zone and some maniac walks in with a AR15  and you stop him before he kills 17  people ...
he still killed a lot more than he could have  had the assault rifle been illegal . which is why assault weapons need to be banned .
Exactly. How is the availability of assault rifles helping these situations? The types of guns that people would have to defend would not be assault rifles.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:40:55 PM
The #1 common denominator in ALL murders is people, lets ban people.
#fakenews and your usual nonsense.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:41:44 PM
You've only addressed the first 3. Explain how the last 4 were gun-free zones.
San Bernadino - I forgot to say that although it's technically not a gun free zone, it's impossible to get a carry permit there.
 Washington Navy Yard & Fort Hood - all bases are gun free zones.
 Aurora - The theater decided to make it a gun free zone.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 12:43:47 PM
1 - The context of this thread is "mass" shootings. So if I understand you correctly, you do consider it a school shooting?
2 - If the numbers were the same (deaths every year caused by guns) absolutely it would be a gun issue. That does not mean there are not other issues involved just like now.

Ok now your turn again to the follow up.  :)
The context of this thread is mass shootings in schools. Do I consider it a school shooting by definition,yes, but it has no impact on this conversation. What about a few of the other examples given in the article? Would you consider a drive by shooting on the block where there once was a school but hasn't been a school for 6 months, a school shooting?
Im not even sure this debate is worth having, but hyperbole deflects the point.       
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:44:34 PM
Exactly. How is the availability of assault rifles helping these situations? The types of guns that people would have to defend would not be assault rifles.
They're not helping the situation, but they are not the issue either. It's the same knee jerk reaction that does little to solve the issue, but it feels like it's helping.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:44:41 PM
The #1 common denominator in ALL murders is people, lets ban people.
And since we can't do that even if limiting to mentally ill people since Trump got rid of that what should we do now?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: chevron on February 16, 2018, 12:46:18 PM
Assault weapons ban is just a gun grabbing ploy. It doesnt actually address anything.

What about mass knife killings ? https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/world/japan-knife-attack-deaths/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_stabbings

truck and car ramings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

The ONLY solution is for law abiding citizens to be armed.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:47:01 PM
The context of this thread is mass shootings in schools. Do I consider it a school shooting by definition,yes, but it has no impact on this conversation. What about a few of the other examples given in the article? Would you consider a drive by shooting on the block where there once was a school but hasn't been a school for 6 months, a school shooting?
Im not even sure this debate is worth having, but hyperbole deflects the point.       
I started the thread and I decide the context that matters.  :)
For the drive by, no. I 100% consider a individual who commits suicide in a school a school shooting.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 12:47:29 PM
And since we can't do that even if limiting to mentally ill people since Trump got rid of that what should we do now?
Let's look at the issue, and find the best possible solution(s) not jump to what feels good - "banning bad guns". If I felt that banning the bad guns would actually fix the problem, we would be having a very different conversation.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: chevron on February 16, 2018, 12:47:55 PM
And since we can't do that even if limiting to mentally ill people since Trump got rid of that what should we do now?

The issue I recall was that it was a broad line. Soldiers that came back were blanket diagnosed with PTSD and not allowed to have guns etc which is sort of valid yet also disgraceful
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:48:46 PM
Let's look at the issue, and find the best possible solution(s) not jump to what feels good - "banning bad guns". If I felt that banning the bad guns would actually fix the problem, we would be having a very different conversation.
What do you consider the best possible solution?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 12:49:25 PM
The issue I recall was that it was a broad line. Soldiers that came back were blanket diagnosed with PTSD and not allowed to have guns etc which is sort of valid yet also disgraceful
So fix it instead of just getting rid of it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:49:37 PM
Assault weapons ban is just a gun grabbing ploy. It doesnt actually address anything.
Anytime you want to come at with a knife and I have an AK just let me know. I would want first to call an ambulance so you can fulfill your requirement as an "organ donor".  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 12:50:59 PM
San Bernadino - I forgot to say that although it's technically not a gun free zone, it's impossible to get a carry permit there.
 Washington Navy Yard & Fort Hood - all bases are gun free zones.
 Aurora - The theater decided to make it a gun free zone.
San Bernardino was a gun free zone as well:

http://www.latimes.com/local/abcarian/la-me-abcarian-bernardino-guns-20151204-column.html

https://www.thenewamerican.com/usnews/crime/item/22074-san-bernardino-victims-defenseless-in-gun-free-zone

https://www.cbsnews.com/news/2016-democratic-candidates-push-for-gun-control-after-mass-san-bernardino-shooting/ (See Huckabee's comment in article)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:51:16 PM
Soldiers that came back were blanket diagnosed with PTSD and not allowed to have guns etc which is sort of valid yet also disgraceful
Have you talked to a vet in this situation? Where do people pull this BS from?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 16, 2018, 12:51:59 PM
Anytime you want to come at with a knife and I have an AK just let me know. I would want first to call an ambulance so you can fulfill your requirement as an "organ donor".  :)
lol way to confusing 
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:53:13 PM
lol way to confusing
You have to put the PC threads together today. Way to much PC today.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 12:54:26 PM
I started the thread and I decide the context that matters.  :)
For the drive by, no. I 100% consider a individual who commits suicide in a school a school shooting.
It's this sort of nonsense, where a suicide in a school is conflated with a mass shooting in a school, that stops us from even having the discussions that could perhaps lead to some policy changes.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 16, 2018, 12:58:03 PM
http://www.foxnews.com/us/2018/02/16/alleged-florida-school-shooter-nikolas-cruz-was-reported-to-fbi-cops-school-but-warning-signs-missed.html
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 12:59:01 PM
It's this sort of nonsense, where a suicide in a school is conflated with a mass shooting in a school, that stops us from even having the discussions that could perhaps lead to some policy changes.
If a kid brings a gun to school to kill himself there is more at play here. It can very easily been a mass shooting but I consider it a school shooting and not a mass school shooting.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 01:03:37 PM
Assault weapons ban is just a gun grabbing ploy. It doesnt actually address anything.

What about mass knife killings ? https://www.cnn.com/2016/07/25/world/japan-knife-attack-deaths/index.html
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Category:Mass_stabbings

truck and car ramings https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vehicle-ramming_attack

...

Or what about the deadliest school mass killing in the US on record? (Yes, more kids than Sandy Hook.)

It was a bombing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Does Oklahoma City ring a bell with anyone?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 01:06:07 PM
What do you consider the best possible solution?
1) Dealing with the primary underlying issue - mental illness (I'm not sure how)
2) Dealing with the secondary issue - lack of armed citizens, by stopping to make gun free zones, the only people who listen are the law abiding citizens. (I have no issue with schools being illegal gun free zones with the same consequences as they have now.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 01:08:02 PM

Or what about the deadliest school mass killing on the US on record? (Yes, more kids than Sandy Hook.)

It was a bombing.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bath_School_disaster

Does Oklahoma City ring a bell with anyone?
Evil people are going to kill. For us to just standby and not try do anything about it is insanity.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: skyguy918 on February 16, 2018, 01:10:29 PM
1) Dealing with the primary underlying issue - mental illness (I'm not sure how)
2) Dealing with the secondary issue - lack of armed citizens, by stopping to make gun free zones, the only people who listen are the law abiding citizens. (I have no issue with schools being illegal gun free zones with the same consequences as they have now.
You're kind of assuming that taking away gun free zones would lead to lots and lots of people carrying. What if that's not the case? What if the majority of the public doesn't want to have to carry a gun to feel safe?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 01:11:28 PM
I don't give a rats *ss what the ACLU thinks. You only use them when they agree with you, totally dishonest. Now address the issue. Why don't you speak out against the president for signing that law or do you agree with him?
That's typically how it works, a person brings those who agree with him, to demonstrate that it's not only his opinion.

The fact that the person who currently agrees is unexpected just bolsters the opinion in question, and shows that there is a broad basis for it.

So yes, I stand with the ACLU, President Trump, and the NRA that we shouldn't be removing civil rights from people without due process.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: chevron on February 16, 2018, 01:13:12 PM
Have you talked to a vet in this situation? Where do people pull this BS from?

oh i missed this http://www.newsweek.com/guns-america-bill-seeks-allow-gun-sales-mentally-ill-vets-568578
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 01:13:44 PM
So yes, I stand with the ACLU, President Trump, and the NRA that we shouldn't be removing civil rights from people without due process.
Hannity is that you or @ilherman?  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 01:16:35 PM
oh i missed this http://www.newsweek.com/guns-america-bill-seeks-allow-gun-sales-mentally-ill-vets-568578
Seems you missed both my questions also.  ::)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 01:23:12 PM
Evil people are going to kill. For us to just standby and not try do anything about it is insanity.
But taking away peoples rights in the name of "doing something" even though it will do little to help is worse. Good policy is not made by trying to "do something". Good policy is made by going thru an issue with a level head instead of using emotions
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 01:24:57 PM
FBI statement:
Protocols were not followed.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 01:25:20 PM
I started the thread and I decide the context that matters.  :)
For the drive by, no. I 100% consider a individual who commits suicide in a school a school shooting.
What does committing suicide have to do with school shootings?

With the criteria they set for whats labeled a school shooting, Im shocked its only 18- I would have thought there'd be at least 1 a day on average.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 01:27:29 PM
What does committing suicide have to do with school shootings?

With the criteria they set for whats labeled a school shooting, Im shocked its only 18- I would have thought there'd be at least 1 a day on average.
Yeah aren't the schools in Chicago all banged up from bullets?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 01:27:43 PM
You're kind of assuming that taking away gun free zones would lead to lots and lots of people carrying. What if that's not the case? What if the majority of the public doesn't want to have to carry a gun to feel safe?
You don't always get to do what you want. If that means the only way to be safe is to carry, I'm sure many people would carry. If it wasn't impossible to get a carry permit where I live (without a "good reason) I would definitely consider it.
There are plenty of people who already do in states that allow, even if the majority don't there would still be enough to stop a massacre.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 01:28:46 PM
You don't always get to do what you want. If that means the only way to be safe is to carry, I'm sure many people would carry. If it wasn't impossible to get a carry permit where I live (without a "good reason) I would definitely consider it.
There are plenty of people who already do in states that allow, even if the majority don't there would still be enough to stop a massacre.
Are there enough in states that allow? Source?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 01:29:10 PM
Evil people are going to kill. For us to just standby and not try do anything about it is insanity.
What's truly insanity is thinking that by removing one tool we're accomplishing anything beyond feeling good.

There are many demonstrated ways that people have used to kill. Bombings, arson, handguns (Virginia Tech, 32 killed in a mass school shooting by handguns - yes, once again, more people than Sandy Hook, more people then this shooting in Florida), etc.

The vast majority of homicides is through handguns.

However, let's destroy the 2A in outlawing a common firearm used by millions of law abiding citizens, let's destroy the other Amendments in trying to illegally seize personal property, all so that we can feel good that we "tried to do something about it".

Until people start using chains to lock doors of schools and burn the buildings. Or commit Oklahoma City style bombings. Or poison the school lunch. Or...

Enough.

Stop conflating a suicide on school premises with a mass school shooting.

Start proposing measures that could actually have an impact.

Then we can have a serious discussion.

Until then you're part of the problem.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 01:54:40 PM
But taking away peoples rights in the name of "doing something" even though it will do little to help is worse. Good policy is not made by trying to "do something". Good policy is made by going thru an issue with a level head instead of using emotions
SCOTUS has already said you can put restrictions. Stop with taking away peoples rights.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 01:59:13 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWLC1uyXcAI6zWR.jpg)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 01:59:40 PM
What's truly insanity is thinking that by removing one tool we're accomplishing anything beyond feeling good.

There are many demonstrated ways that people have used to kill. Bombings, arson, handguns (Virginia Tech, 32 killed in a mass school shooting by handguns - yes, once again, more people than Sandy Hook, more people then this shooting in Florida), etc.

The vast majority of homicides is through handguns.

However, let's destroy the 2A in outlawing a common firearm used by millions of law abiding citizens, let's destroy the other Amendments in trying to illegally seize personal property, all so that we can feel good that we "tried to do something about it".

Until people start using chains to lock doors of schools and burn the buildings. Or commit Oklahoma City style bombings. Or poison the school lunch. Or...

Enough.

Stop conflating a suicide on school premises with a mass school shooting.

Start proposing measures that could actually have an impact.

Then we can have a serious discussion.

Until then you're part of the problem.
Classic deflection. I know for a fact your ideas will never work but I have none of my own. VT was a mentally ill person that should never been allowed to own a gun. Why don't you address this issue instead of avoiding it?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 02:01:27 PM
What's truly insanity is thinking that by removing one tool we're accomplishing anything beyond feeling good.
Why? One tool is now removed and we are that much better off for it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:03:32 PM
What does committing suicide have to do with school shootings?
Why would someone go to a school to commit suicide? You have an unstable kid at a school with a gun. He decide for whatever reason to use it on himself instead of others. I consider that a school shooting. What is so hard to understand?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 16, 2018, 02:05:53 PM
Why? One tool is now removed and we are that much better off for it.
+1 obviously there are still ways for people to (mass) murder, so we also need to address the underlying factors, not just the tools which are used. (One can still debate how much freedom is worth giving up to save lives, a discussion not limited to guns)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 16, 2018, 02:07:42 PM
Why would someone go to a school to commit suicide? You have an unstable kid at a school with a gun. He decide for whatever reason to use it on himself instead of others. I consider that a school shooting. What is so hard to understand?
True, and even he only planned on committing suicide, very possibly wouldn't have done it if no one was there to see.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 16, 2018, 02:11:01 PM
I think part of the reason nothing gets done is because some talk as if guns are the issue rather than just saying a ban would help stem the flow like a band aid, while others pretend banning certain weapons wouldn't help at all.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 02:11:51 PM
Why would someone go to a school to commit suicide? You have an unstable kid at a school with a gun. He decide for whatever reason to use it on himself instead of others. I consider that a school shooting. What is so hard to understand?
You didnt specify committing suicide with a gun. In this game of words semantics are  important.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:13:04 PM
I think part of the reason nothing gets done is because some talk as if guns are the issue rather than just saying a ban would help stem the flow like a band aid, while others pretend banning certain weapons wouldn't help at all.
You have nuts on both sides. Then have the nuts from both sides that pretend to be objective but have no ideas.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 02:13:29 PM
Classic deflection. I know for a fact your ideas will never work but I have none of my own. VT was a mentally ill person that should never been allowed to own a gun. Why don't you address this issue instead of avoiding it?
Deflection to point out that there's already been multiple other methods used to commit mass school murders, and that therefore your idťe fixe about destroying our civil liberties in order to ban one tool is both irrelevant and dangerous?

How about a cogent comment that totally undercut your appeal to emotion, so you needed to resort to innuendo? That's how I like to think about it.

I agree with you that mental health plays a large part in preventing these tragedies, and I'm glad that my comments caused you to talk about it.

If you'll now propose a common sense mental health regulation that doesn't trample all over due process with hobnailed boots, we might actually be able to agree on something.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:14:27 PM
You didnt specify committing suicide with a gun. In this game of words semantics are  important.
Unless I am mistaken one of the cases was a suicide.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 02:18:14 PM
Unless I am mistaken one of the cases was a suicide.
I think so.
Let me ask you this, since there have been 17 previous school shootings since 2018 where can I  find the 17 threads similiar to this one for each of those incidents? You must have been equally  outraged after hearing of each one.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yuneeq on February 16, 2018, 02:21:12 PM
(http://i.magaimg.net/img/2nyq.png)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:22:07 PM
I think so.
Let me ask you this, since there have been 17 previous school shootings since 2018 where can I  find the 17 threads similiar to this one for each of those incidents? You must have been equally  outraged after hearing of each one.
IIRC the one report said 25.  :)
Did you see the title of this thread? Key word was "mass".
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:25:59 PM
Deflection to point out that there's already been multiple other methods used to commit mass school murders, and that therefore your idťe fixe about destroying our civil liberties in order to ban one tool is both irrelevant and dangerous?

How about a cogent comment that totally undercut your appeal to emotion, so you needed to resort to innuendo? That's how I like to think about it.

I agree with you that mental health plays a large part in preventing these tragedies, and I'm glad that my comments caused you to talk about it.

If you'll now propose a common sense mental health regulation that doesn't trample all over due process with hobnailed boots, we might actually be able to agree on something.
Mental health is an issue. BO addressed this on a small scale and you are against it with no ideas of your own.
SCOTUS has ruled that certain gun restrictions are constitutional. No ones rights are getting trampled no matter how many times you repeat that BS.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 02:26:39 PM
IIRC the one report said 25.  :)
Did you see the title of this thread? Key word was "mass".
You were the one to bring it up

18 school shootings this year already. Keep doing nothing and expect different results?  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 02:27:13 PM
IIRC the one report said 25.  :)
Did you see the title of this thread? Key word was "mass".
I'm not the one who brought the other shootings into this thread.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:30:37 PM
I'm not the one who brought the other shootings into this thread.
I did. Are you trying to say my point was any school shooting was a "mass" school shooting? Kids bringing guns into school is a big problem but different from mass shootings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 02:30:52 PM
Mental health is an issue. BO addressed this on a small scale and you are against it with no ideas of your own.
I agree with him that we can't arbitrarily take away peoples rights without due process. Do you disagree with that or do you believe the law did not do that?
Can you answer this question?

SCOTUS has ruled that certain gun restrictions are constitutional. No ones rights are getting trampled no matter how many times you repeat that BS.
It's not a protected right, but it's still a right.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:32:28 PM
Can you answer this question?
 
Link to the law? Was it challenged in court?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 02:36:31 PM
Why? One tool is now removed and we are that much better off for it.
You should understand, it's basically the same reasoning behind "drei ivrei dnharah". If you don't accomplish anything, then there is no issur because there's no point, and we are not at all better off. We are exactly the same way as before.

Here it's even worse, because we'll be wasting time and energy to pass legislation that's meaningless in terms of impact, instead of focusing on things that might actually help.

Further, in order to outlaw this form of firearm you'll need to destroy civil liberties. A horrible tradeoff.

Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.

That's why these "feel good" knee jerk responses are dangerous and should be viewed with suspicion. "Chabdehu vchashdehu"
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 02:39:20 PM
I did. Are you trying to say my point was any school shooting was a "mass" school shooting? Kids bringing guns into school is a big problem but different from mass shootings.
I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, I did think you (and whoever quotes this stat) were conflating the 2 or worse, internationally being vauge to fool people.
I do hear your point though. But I still maintain that stats like these don't help anyone's cause.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:41:20 PM
You should understand, it's basically the same reasoning behind "drei ivrei dnharah". If you don't accomplish anything, then there is no issur because there's no point, and we are not at all better off. We are exactly the same way as before.

Here it's even worse, because we'll be wasting time and energy to pass legislation that's meaningless in terms of impact, instead of focusing on things that might actually help.

Further, in order to outlaw this form of firearm you'll need to destroy civil liberties. A horrible tradeoff.

Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.

That's why these "feel good" knee jerk responses are dangerous and should be viewed with suspicion. "Chabdehu vchashdehu"
Blah blah blah and not one idea to solve the problem. This won't work and that wont work.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 02:41:47 PM
You should understand, it's basically the same reasoning behind "drei ivrei dnharah". If you don't accomplish anything, then there is no issur because there's no point, and we are not at all better off. We are exactly the same way as before.

Here it's even worse, because we'll be wasting time and energy to pass legislation that's meaningless in terms of impact, instead of focusing on things that might actually help.

Further, in order to outlaw this form of firearm you'll need to destroy civil liberties. A horrible tradeoff.

Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.

That's why these "feel good" knee jerk responses are dangerous and should be viewed with suspicion. "Chabdehu vchashdehu"
1. I don't see why it would be meaningless in impact. If it takes more time to shoot then the football coach who tried rushing him may have been successful.
2. I do not see that the right to bear a form of arms which its only use in the hands of a civilian is to murder is a civil right. Neither does SCOTUS.
3. What is your source that more civilians are saved by guns than murdered?
4. Even if they are you are making a straw man argument to people who are not advocating a broad based gun ban.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:43:24 PM
I'm not trying to put any words in your mouth, I did think you (and whoever quotes this stat) were conflating the 2 or worse, internationally being vauge to fool people.
I do hear your point though. But I still maintain that stats like these don't help anyone's cause.
Of course they are going to slant the stats in their favor to prove their point. Just as US slants the mass shooting stats to make it seem we are not as bad as other countries.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:44:43 PM
Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths.
Where did you get this from?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 02:45:09 PM
Link to the law? Was it challenged in court?
It was repealed before it actually went into effect.
https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF (https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 16, 2018, 02:46:37 PM
Non-PC opinion- Banning guns is just a convenient way of ignoring the gun violence caused by minorities. Remove their numbers from the statistics and we'd be having a drastically different discussion.
Discussing mass shootings, not all gun violence.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 02:49:39 PM
At least someone is doing something http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/16/alabama-house-passes-broadened-stand-ground-florida-school-shooting/ (http://www.breitbart.com/big-government/2018/02/16/alabama-house-passes-broadened-stand-ground-florida-school-shooting/)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
It was repealed before it actually went into effect.
https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF (https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF)
If someone is mentally ill they should not be allowed to own a gun. If SS has information that someone is mentally ill and receiving benefits for that condition then it should be known to the proper authorities so the individual can't buy a gun. Didn't read the whole thing. This was BO executive order that Trump reversed?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 16, 2018, 02:52:54 PM
Reports of ANOTHER mass shooting in Washington community College, 19 dead.
Don't know it's realiblity
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 02:56:44 PM
Reports of ANOTHER mass shooting in Washington community College, 19 dead.
Don't know it's realiblity
Nothing on the news.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 16, 2018, 02:57:29 PM
Nothing on the news.
I see this
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/grade-point/wp/2018/02/16/police-responding-to-reports-of-gunfire-on-highline-college-campus-in-washington/?utm_term=.ef9099ab72fb
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 02:59:11 PM
If someone is mentally ill they should not be allowed to own a gun. If SS has information that someone is mentally ill and receiving benefits for that condition then it should be known to the proper authorities so the individual can't buy a gun. Didn't read the whole thing. This was BO executive order that Trump reversed?
https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment (https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment)

Quote
A year ago, Congress and Trump eliminated a proposed rule that would have included in the federal government gun background database people who received disability payments from Social Security and received assistance to manage their benefits due to mental impairments.

This is a regulation that potentially deprived between 75,000 to 80,000 people of a right based not on what they had done but on the basis of being classified by the government in a certain way. The fact that these people may have these impairments did not inherently mean that they were dangerous to themselves or others and needed to be kept away from guns.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 02:59:50 PM
1. I don't see why it would be meaningless in impact. If it takes more time to shoot then the football coach who tried rushing him may have been successful.
2. I do not see that the right to bear a form of arms which its only use in the hands of a civilian is to murder is a civil right. Neither does SCOTUS.
3. What is your source that more civilians are saved by guns than murdered?
4. Even if they are you are making a straw man argument to people who are not advocating a broad based gun ban.
1. Factually it doesn't take more time. It's easy to carry multiple handguns, it's easy to reload them, and it's been done before. Fact.

2. The only use of an AR is to murder?! It's these sort of nutso statements that precludes any serious discussion. There's a reason why millions of law abiding citizens own AR's and is not to go around murdering people.

And yes, after Heller, banning common firearms is illegal. And 2A is a civil right.

(It's these sort of ignorant, and frankly crazy, statements that cause gun owners to tune out people like you and to suspect that your true agenda is a total gun ban.)

3. A fair question. Here is one link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/344415/news-we-never-hear-guns-save-lives-thomas-sowell Try googling "how many lives are saved by guns" and read through several articles.

4. There are plenty of comments on this thread who want to ban all AR's, yourself included I believe. Someone posted that all guns should be banned. A link to a NYT article that called for a repeal of 2A was posted.

What was that about a straw man? I can't hear you past all the rustling.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 16, 2018, 03:01:25 PM
Scott is telling Wray to resign
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 03:08:05 PM


If someone is mentally ill they should not be allowed to own a gun. If SS has information that someone is mentally ill and receiving benefits for that condition then it should be known to the proper authorities so the individual can't buy a gun. Didn't read the whole thing. This was BO executive order that Trump reversed?

Thats the BO law that was reversed.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mgarfin on February 16, 2018, 03:08:56 PM
The USA
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 03:12:25 PM
Where did you get this from?
From actually researching the issue, reading studies, etc. instead of having knee jerk reactions.

The researchers get the statistics on this issue the same primary ways statistics are gathered about these sort of things.

1. Surveys.
2. Crime statistics gathered through law enforcement.
3. Gathering media reports (similar to what Everytown does with mass shootings - except  here it's to show the life saving utility).
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 03:14:47 PM
3. A fair question. Here is one link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/344415/news-we-never-hear-guns-save-lives-thomas-sowell Try googling "how many lives are saved by guns" and read through several articles.
Not one fact or study to back up the claims. You claim guns have saved more lives than murders. Were are the facts?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 03:15:24 PM
From actually researching the issue, reading studies, etc. instead of having knee jerk reactions.

The researchers get the statistics on this issue the same primary ways statistics are gathered about these sort of things.

1. Surveys.
2. Crime statistics gathered through law enforcement.
3. Gathering media reports (similar to what Everytown does with mass shootings - except  here it's to show the life saving utility).
Links?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 03:18:05 PM

Thats the BO law that was reversed.
Did Trump sign the law that reversed it?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 03:18:59 PM
Did Trump sign the law that reversed it?
Yes
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 03:21:22 PM
1. Factually it doesn't take more time. It's easy to carry multiple handguns, it's easy to reload them, and it's been done before. Fact.

2. The only use of an AR is to murder?! It's these sort of nutso statements that precludes any serious discussion. There's a reason why millions of law abiding citizens own AR's and is not to go around murdering people.

And yes, after Heller banning common firearms is illegal. And 2A is a civil right.

(It's these sort of ignorant, and frankly crazy, statements that cause gun owners to tune out people like you and to suspect that your true agenda is a total gun ban.)

3. A fair question. Here is one link: http://www.nationalreview.com/article/344415/news-we-never-hear-guns-save-lives-thomas-sowell Try googling "how many lives are saved by guns" and read through several articles.

4. There are plenty of comments on this thread who want to ban all AR's, yourself included I believe. Someone posted that all guns should be banned. A link to a NYT article that called for a repeal of 2A was posted.

What was that about a straw man? I can't hear you past all the rustling.

1. And that is as effective and fast as an assault rifle?
2. What purpose do they serve? As recently as Nov courts have allowed assault weapons bans. You are again making a straw man argument conflating assault weapons bans with a complete gun ban.
3. need to review that.
4. I am open to banning assault rifles but did not call for it. You are not arguing against the NYT writer now.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 03:21:40 PM
Yes
So we don't know if it was unconstitutional. What we do know is Trump made it easier for individuals with problems to get guns. Now there is a solution!!!  ::)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 16, 2018, 03:22:27 PM
The USA
Which category was Cruz?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 16, 2018, 03:30:24 PM
Not one fact or study to back up the claims. You claim guns have saved more lives than murders. Were are the facts?
I showed a learned opinion written by well known scholar, who has published widely on economics and political science (he's an educated person with statistics [1]), and provided the Google keywords where anyone can start to educate themselves as well.

The facts are right there, being quoted in condensed form by a renowned scholar, and that exact search pulls up several articles that quote specific sources (surveys, crime statistics, etc.).

I'm sorry, but I won't spoon feed you.

And now I need to run, Shabbos is coming.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 16, 2018, 03:33:13 PM
I showed a learned opinion written by well known scholar, who has published widely on economics and political science (he's an educated person with statistics [1]), and provided the Google keywords where anyone can start to educate themselves as well.

The facts are right there, being quoted in condensed form by a renowned scholar, and that exact search pulls up several articles that quote specific sources (surveys, crime statistics, etc.).

I'm sorry, but I won't spoon feed you.

And now I need run, Shabbos is coming.

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_Sowell
Again no answers just blah blah blah!!! You should have ran sooner instead of your ridicules claims backup up by thin air.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 16, 2018, 03:33:22 PM
Not one fact or study to back up the claims. You claim guns have saved more lives than murders. Were are the facts?
+1 I've come across that claim numerous times, but I didn't quote it because there seems to be no proof to it. I've yet to come across any proof that the numbers going around have any basis.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 16, 2018, 03:44:39 PM
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/no-there-havent-been-18-school-shooting-in-2018-that-number-is-flat-wrong/2018/02/15/65b6cf72-1264-11e8-8ea1-c1d91fcec3fe_story.html

1 school shooting is too many but As pointed out in the article,  exaggerating the numbers doesn't help the debate. 1

Unfortunately, I think @dan hit it on the head in the beginning of this thread,  we've become numb to these incidents. I heard several interviews of students at the school, they talked as if they expected this to happen,  going so far sayinh how  they used to joke that if their school would have a shooting, this killer would be most likely to perpetrate it.
Heres one of the interviews I was referring to:
https://www.facebook.com/10NewsWTSP/videos/1919205144779895/

It's so sad how "normal" and expected this is.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 17, 2018, 08:34:00 PM
Wiki added.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 17, 2018, 08:40:11 PM
Wiki added.
What about with all this our youth is still being murdered at an alarming rate?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 17, 2018, 08:52:43 PM
Wiki added.
That looks about accurate.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 17, 2018, 08:56:43 PM
That looks about accurate.
+1
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: CS1 on February 17, 2018, 11:17:10 PM
Wiki added.
That looks about accurate.
+1

just change #7 to age 25 and that will eliminate the cause of the majority of the mass shootings in the USA.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 17, 2018, 11:27:49 PM
just change #7 to age 25 and that will eliminate the cause of the majority of the mass shootings in the USA.
...and leave the worst one ever.

https://www.nbcnews.com/news/us-news/rally-parkland-shooting-survivors-rail-against-gun-laws-nra-trump-n849076?cid=par-xfinity_20180218
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 17, 2018, 11:31:35 PM
just change #7 to age 25 and that will eliminate the cause of the majority of the mass shootings in the USA.
Still taking their right, and see 1
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 17, 2018, 11:36:20 PM
No matter what your stance on gun control js, there should be no reason for a 19 year old to be able to obtain a gun. They're just not mature enough.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: CS1 on February 17, 2018, 11:38:00 PM
No matter what your stance on gun control js, there should be no reason for a 19 year old to be able to obtain a gun. They're just not mature enough.

...and he was 18 when he bought it. No dad, and his mom had died. Zero supervision. Mental health risks. FBI visited his house 39 times. Where is our high-tech communication...?...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 17, 2018, 11:39:39 PM
No matter what your stance on gun control js, there should be no reason for a 19 year old to be able to obtain a gun. They're just not mature enough.
I don't think maturity is a factor in this, this is a more of a factor of mental health. How developed one is at that age. You can have many 30 year olds etc. with a maturity developed for less then many 19 year Olds.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 17, 2018, 11:40:18 PM
...and he was 18 when he bought it. No dad, and his mom had died. Zero supervision. Mental health risks. FBI visited his house 39 times. Where is our high-tech communication...?...
There was definitely a failure on the FBI's part.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yuneeq on February 17, 2018, 11:44:10 PM
No matter what your stance on gun control js, there should be no reason for a 19 year old to be able to obtain a gun. They're just not mature enough.

Lol please don't put your brilliant mind-blowing opinions in anyone else's mouth.
18 year olds are old enough to join the military but not old enough to own a gun?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yuneeq on February 17, 2018, 11:44:18 PM
https://www.nbcwashington.com/news/national-international/Teacher-With-Gun-Could-Have-Stopped-Fla-Shooter-Student-474382133.html
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Sport on February 17, 2018, 11:55:01 PM
Lol please don't put your brilliant mind-blowing opinions in anyone else's mouth.
18 year olds are old enough to join the military but not old enough to own a gun?
Ok,  if they join thr military they can have a gun, others0wise they need a lot of growing up to do.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 17, 2018, 11:56:33 PM
Ok,  if they join thr military they can have a gun, others0wise they need a lot of growing up to do.


Lol please don't put your brilliant mind-blowing opinions in anyone else's mouth.
18 year olds are old enough to join the military but not old enough to own a gun?
Are they different people, those who join the military and those who don't? The mentally disturbed wouldn't get in the military either.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: CS1 on February 18, 2018, 12:22:30 AM
whoa: He legally owned these 6 guns. This is not self-defense. This is a violent 18 yr old. Do they show their gun purchase history when they buy a new gun? The pharmacy has a record of your medications. Easy for guns, too: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200735914.html
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 12:25:33 AM
whoa: He legally owned these 6 guns. This is not self-defense. This is a violent 18 yr old. Do they show their gun purchase history when they buy a new gun? The pharmacy has a record of your medications. Easy for guns, too: http://www.miamiherald.com/news/local/community/broward/article200735914.html
What would it help? All it takes is 1 gun. There are plenty of other people with many guns, who don't go around killing.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 18, 2018, 12:28:28 AM
What would it help? All it takes is 1 gun. There are plenty of other people with many guns, who don't go around killing.
There are also plenty of people who eat cholent without getting reflux.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 12:30:48 AM
There are also plenty of people who eat cholent without getting reflux.
I don't understand your goal. But, a much larger percentage of cholent eaters get reflux then gun owners who are murderers.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: CS1 on February 18, 2018, 12:46:06 AM
What would it help? All it takes is 1 gun. There are plenty of other people with many guns, who don't go around killing.

doubtful that there are 18 yr olds who have purchased 6 guns/assault rifles who are sane and competent. Shocking that this is allowed. He didn't even complete high school.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 12:51:01 AM
doubtful that there are 18 yr olds who have purchased 6 guns/assault rifles who are sane and competent. Shocking that this is allowed. He didn't even complete high school.

I seem to think there are many, try Texas.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 18, 2018, 12:51:59 AM

I seem to think there are many, try TX.
I think the main point was that he was young
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 12:53:09 AM
I think the main point was that he was young
And my main point is that's irrelevant
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 18, 2018, 12:54:17 AM
And my main point is that's irrelevant
The data you quoted doesn't show anything in that regard
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 12:56:39 AM


The data you quoted doesn't show anything in that regard

It shows how odds are most of those people are both sane and competent, so to say that "doubtful any 18 year....." is being ignorant
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 12:57:22 AM

It shows how odds are most of those people are both sane and competent, so to say that "doubtful any 18 year....." is being ignorant
Huh?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 18, 2018, 12:57:55 AM

It shows how odds are most of those people are both sane and competent, so to say that "doubtful any 18 year....." is being ignorant
Not sure what you mean
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 12:59:12 AM
doubtful that there are 18 yr olds who have purchased 6 guns/assault rifles who are sane and competent. Shocking that this is allowed. He didn't even complete high school.
Why is this important?

The reason it's allowed is because we live in a free country, and if there is no valid reason to stop someone, we don't stop them. Limiting the number of guns one may own, would do nothing to stop this attack.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 01:01:48 AM


Huh?



Not sure what you mean

I quoted the wrong stat, ignore that, I'll try to find the correct one.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 01:03:09 AM



I quoted the wrong stat, ignore that, I'll try to find the correct one.
What were you looking for? 29% of gun owners own 5+ guns?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 01:04:18 AM
What were you looking for? 29% of gun owners own 5+ guns?
Nope, it was a stat about the amount of gun owners under 21.
But that one does say something too.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:04:48 AM
Huh?
If three out of ten adults with a high school diploma or less level of education have guns (which is the stat he brought to the discussion), it's logical to assume that some of those are actually still in school.

Depending on where the stat is from, that can be many thousands of people, all of whom are law abiding, etc.

This would disprove those who feel that 18 is too young.

That it's how I understood what he was saying.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 01:06:10 AM
If three out of ten adults with a high school diploma or less level of education have guns (which is the stat he brought to the discussion), it's logical to assume that some of those are actually still in school.

Depending on where the stat is from, that can be many thousands of people, all of whom are law abiding, etc.

This would disprove those who feel that 18 is too young.

That it's how I understood what he was saying.
That was my goal, but I can't find the stat I actually wanted about those -21
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 18, 2018, 01:09:08 AM
If three out of ten adults with a high school diploma or less level of education have guns (which is the stat he brought to the discussion), it's logical to assume that some of those are actually still in school.

Depending on where the stat is from, that can be many thousands of people, all of whom are law abiding, etc.

This would disprove those who feel that 18 is too young.

That it's how I understood what he was saying.
I don't think it's logical. Kids in school usually wouldn't have the money for one thing
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 01:11:24 AM
If three out of ten adults with a high school diploma or less level of education have guns (which is the stat he brought to the discussion), it's logical to assume that some of those are actually still in school.

Depending on where the stat is from, that can be many thousands of people, all of whom are law abiding, etc.

This would disprove those who feel that 18 is too young.

That it's how I understood what he was saying.
Circular reasoning.
It shows what I want it to show therefore it must be true.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:11:46 AM
I don't think it's logical. Kids in school usually wouldn't have the money for one thing
You don't have a clue.

Many kids work part time jobs (and basically all major expenses are being paid for by parents). Many parents buy their kids guns as presents. Etc.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 01:13:22 AM


Nope, it was a stat about the amount of gun owners under 21.
But that one does say something too.
Here's a stat, this doesn't differentiate between - 21 and 21+,still hard to question the sanity of these
Quote
one in five 18- to 29-year-olds (21%) say they own a gun
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: CS1 on February 18, 2018, 01:23:00 AM
Here's a stat, this doesn't differentiate between - 21 and 21+,still hard to question the sanity of these
  " one in five 18- to 29-year-olds (21%) say they own a gun"

" a gun" is one thing. However owning 6 full-sized guns/assault rifles at the age of 19 together with a history of self-cutting, autism, and zero parental supervision plus not completing high school is a recipe for disaster. These are documented facts.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 01:24:08 AM
  " one in five 18- to 29-year-olds (21%) say they own a gun"

" a gun"  6 guns at the age of 19 together with a history of self-cutting, autism, and zero parental supervision plus not completing high school is a recipe for disaster. These are documented facts.
That makes the rest if them insane, and incompetent?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:34:24 AM
  " one in five 18- to 29-year-olds (21%) say they own a gun"

" a gun" is one thing. However owning 6 full-sized guns/assault rifles at the age of 19 together with a history of self-cutting, autism, and zero parental supervision plus not completing high school is a recipe for disaster. These are documented facts.
The fact that you bold the amount of guns and not the mental health issues shows your myopic POV.

If he's stable, six guns are fine.

If he's dangerous, one is too many.

Let me ask you, how many did he use when he actually murdered people?

It's these sort of inanities that preclude a serious discussion.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: CS1 on February 18, 2018, 01:38:30 AM
The fact that you bold the amount of guns and not the mental health issues shows your myopic POV.

If he's stable, six guns are fine.

If he's dangerous, one is too many.

Let me ask you, how many did he use when he actually murdered people?

It's these sort of inanities that preclude a serious discussion.

that's exactly the point. Anyone who meets the criteria of what I wrote and also owns 6 guns and assault rifles at age 19, along with his mental-history diagnosis has several red flags. Of course even one gun is too many. Even more so, owning this many guns and assault rifles at this young age without any living parents or adult supervision points to deep mental health issues with his cutting, high school expulsion at age 19, and 39 FBI visits, etc...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 01:40:45 AM

that's exactly the point. Anyone who meets the criteria of what I wrote and also owns 6 guns and assault rifles at age 19, along with his mental-history diagnosis has several red flags. Of course even one gun is too many. Even more so, owning this many guns and assault rifles at this young age without any living parents or adult supervision points to deep mental health issues with his cutting, high school expulsion at age 19, and 39 FBI visits, etc...

You missed the point. Why don't you stop with the 6 guns point?



The fact that you bold the amount of guns and not the mental health issues shows your myopic POV.

If he's stable, six guns are fine.

If he's dangerous, one is too many.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 02:18:46 AM
1. And that is as effective and fast as an assault rifle?
2. What purpose do they serve? As recently as Nov courts have allowed assault weapons bans. You are again making a straw man argument conflating assault weapons bans with a complete gun ban.
3. need to review that.
4. I am open to banning assault rifles but did not call for it. You are not arguing against the NYT writer now.
1. Yes. (In the context of a killer perpetrating a mass casualty event of his choosing.) I've already brought the example of Virginia Tech - the deadliest school shooting, not committed by terrorists, in history. Handguns.

The vast majority of mass casualty shootings in the US (four deaths or more) are committed using handguns.

2. The basis for allowing a Constitutional right (yes, 2A meets that criteria) isn't if @aygart can figure out the purpose.

@aygart should only be allowed to exercise his 1A right to free speech on DDF to the tune of 300K words a year. If he can't make his point in that amount of words, what's the purpose?

With all due respect, the fact that the only reason you could cudgel up in your brain for wanting to possess an AR is to murder people, speaks volumes as to the level of the debate here. (Hint: Not high)

AR's are extremely common, there are millions in America; if all their owners wanted to murder people we would be awash in deaths.

The sheer insanity of your supposition is matched only by you holding on to it after being challenged.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're referring to in regard to November, but if the ban in question is on aspects of various weapons, while having no effect on deaths (how well did CA's laws work in San Bernardino?), it might well be legal.

However, after Heller, a ban (or defacto ban like D.C. used to have) on any common class of firearm is illegal.

3. Please do so.

4. I'm speaking to you, someone who believes that the millions of AR owners are walking time bombs. I'm speaking to the people in this thread who have called for a total ban on a common class of firearm (AR's). I'm speaking to the person who, in this thread, said he would like a total ban on all firearms but would start with AR's.

I can't hear you for all the rustling.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yuneeq on February 18, 2018, 02:44:27 AM
that's exactly the point. Anyone who meets the criteria of what I wrote and also owns 6 guns and assault rifles at age 19, along with his mental-history diagnosis has several red flags. Of course even one gun is too many. Even more so, owning this many guns and assault rifles at this young age without any living parents or adult supervision points to deep mental health issues with his cutting, high school expulsion at age 19, and 39 FBI visits, etc...

What's your point, that there was 100 red flags and not 50?
In case it isn't completely obvious to you by now, the FBI is completely incompetent.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 08:29:56 AM
I am amazed how certain individuals in this thread had ZERO ideas for solutions. They are basically clueless when it comes to guns and the constitution. They should really just STFU because they are the problem!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 08:32:09 AM
...the FBI is completely incompetent.
Just the latest in brilliant comments!  ::) ::) ::)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 08:34:51 AM
I am amazed how certain individuals in this thread had ZERO ideas for solutions. They are basically clueless when it comes to guns and the constitution. They should really just STFU because they are the problem!!!
Blah, blah, blah. As long as it's trying to do something, and it's outlawing some sort of gun, right?

I think, instead, like this wise comment...

...You should think before posting reckless ideas.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 08:40:32 AM
Blah, blah, blah. As long as it's trying to do something, and it's outlawing some sort of gun, right?

I think, instead, like this wise comment...
It is called common sense approach something you cant see. You have ZERO ideas so attack those that do.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 08:52:22 AM
It is called common sense approach something you cant see. You have ZERO ideas so attack those that do.
I think your so-called common sense ideas are actually ill conceived, ideas that will hurt us.

Just because you shout them while standing on top of the bodies of children, won't give you enough fake moral superiority to bully others into agreeing with you.

You're part of the problem.

Stop.

If you need to purpose ideas, at least purpose idea that everyone could agree with, and that might actually help.

(Mental health, increasing armed security in schools, etc.)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 08:58:39 AM
(Mental health, increasing armed security in schools, etc.)
I am not against those ideas. When BO did something to try and stop individuals with problems to get a gun the right was against it. Then the president reverses it and clueless individuals like you say nothing or use a group you hate like the ACLU to make your argument. Look in the mirror and you will see the problem.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 09:29:28 AM
I am not against those ideas. When BO did something to try and stop individuals with problems to get a gun the right was against it. Then the president reverses it and clueless individuals like you say nothing or use a group you hate like the ACLU to make your argument. Look in the mirror and you will see the problem.
Yet, like as if there's a dybbuk, you don't purpose those, instead you start and end with trying to ban guns.

That's not what BO tried to do. He was trying to grab guns from people without any demonstrated danger and without any due process. There's a reason why such "right-wing NRA-style" groups like the ACLU opposed his gun grab.

This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, but sure let's just try again.

https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment (https://reason.com/blog/2018/02/15/no-trump-did-not-make-it-easier-for-ment)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 09:43:27 AM
Yet, like as if there's a dybbuk, you don't purpose those, instead you start and end with trying to ban guns.

That's not what BO tried to do. He was trying to grab guns from people without any demonstrated danger and without any due process. There's a reason why such "right-wing NRA-style" groups like the ACLU opposed his gun grab.

This has been repeatedly pointed out to you, but sure let's just try again.
You need to put your Hannity mentality aside if you want an honest discussion. You refuse to address the gun side of the issue. This shows your lack of knowledge about guns or your head buried in the sand mentality.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 09:43:57 AM


I am not against those ideas. When BO did something to try and stop individuals with problems to get a gun the right was against it. Then the president reverses it and clueless individuals like you say nothing or use a group you hate like the ACLU to make your argument. Look in the mirror and you will see the problem.



Can you answer this question?
Please answer this question before repeating this false narrative.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 09:48:22 AM
Please answer this question before repeating this false narrative.
Please stop posting since you know nothing about guns. I have better chance of being called an expert on the Torah than you being taken serious in this thread.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 09:48:45 AM
You need to put your Hannity mentality aside if you want an honest discussion. You refuse to address the gun side of the issue. This shows your lack of knowledge about guns or your head buried in the sand mentality.
You need to stop thumping your chest, and stop using the bodies of children to call for your policy changes.

We won't be bullied with name calling to implement harmful ideas.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 09:51:45 AM
Please stop posting since you know nothing about guns. I have better chance of being called an expert on the Torah than you being taken serious in this thread.
I thought we were going to have an honest discussion.

The fact that you refuse to answer the simple question, and instead move to personal attacks speaks volumes.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 09:52:44 AM
Please stop posting since you know nothing about guns. I have better chance of being called an expert on the Torah than you being taken serious in this thread.
Seems like you are the only one who knows, how many countless arguments have you disputed with this stupid claim? All while you can't answer one simple question.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 09:56:00 AM
Seems like you are the only one who knows, how many countless arguments have you disputed with this stupid claim? All while you can't answer one simple question.
What's the question?
How do want me to respond to some idiotic statement that guns saved more lives each year than murders committed. That's like me saying the Torah was written by the devil.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 10:06:55 AM
All while you can't answer one simple question.
What's the question?
You want to give me a hint to what question you want answered?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 10:10:51 AM
1. Yes. (In the context of a killer perpetrating a mass casualty event of his choosing.) I've already brought the example of Virginia Tech - the deadliest school shooting, not committed by terrorists, in history. Handguns.

The vast majority of mass casualty shootings in the US (four deaths or more) are committed using handguns.
THat a shooting with handguns had more casualties than others with assault rifles shows little. (also not sure why you are limiting to school shootings for this-cherry picking?). That the majority oare with handguns also shows nothing. Each of those could potentially have been much worse had they used assault weapons. How can the ability to reload be equal to being able to shoot continuously? Each reload is an opportunity for someone to take him down like the football coach tried doing.

2. The basis for allowing a Constitutional right (yes, 2A meets that criteria) isn't if @aygart can figure out the purpose.

@aygart should only be allowed to exercise his 1A right to free speech on DDF to the tune of 300K words a year. If he can't make his point in that amount of words, what's the purpose?

With all due respect, the fact that the only reason you could cudgel up in your brain for wanting to possess an AR is to murder people, speaks volumes as to the level of the debate here. (Hint: Not high)

AR's are extremely common, there are millions in America; if all their owners wanted to murder people we would be awash in deaths.

The sheer insanity of your supposition is matched only by you holding on to it after being challenged.

Finally, I'm not sure what you're referring to in regard to November, but if the ban in question is on aspects of various weapons, while having no effect on deaths (how well did CA's laws work in San Bernardino?), it might well be legal.

However, after Heller, a ban (or defacto ban like D.C. used to have) on any common class of firearm is illegal.

I am not sure what in the world you are trying to say here, but the courts have held that assault weapons bans are constitution numerous times. As recently as November SCOTUS allowed a lower court ruling upholding one Maryland to stand.

Notice that while stating that the gun has a different purpose you did not mention at all what that purpose may be. All you wrote was that millions have it. That is totally irrelevant. They may own it for reasons other that its purpose. Maybe they own it because they like showing it off at a gun show. Maybe they own it because it makes them feel cool or powerful. Maybe for some other reason.

Until someone challenges with a logical argument I have not been challenged. Your argumentum ad lapidem doesn't count.

4. I'm speaking to you, someone who believes that the millions of AR owners are walking time bombs.
Never said that. Straw man. I have not even called for a ban. I wrote that the arguments made for a ban sound sensible to me and have not heard a valid argument against them. Feel free to make one if you can do it without arguing from incredulity.

I can't hear you for all the rustling.

Not sure what you are trying to say here. I presume it is a false tu quoque trying to say that I am the one who made a straw man argument. I do not see one in what I wrote and if I did please point it out.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 10:13:10 AM
What's the question?
How do want me to respond to some idiotic statement that guns saved more lives each year than murders committed. That's like me saying the Torah was written by the devil.
Sure, because everyone knows that having a gun never saved anyone's life, or saved someone from being injured, or saved someone from being raped, or having their property taken.

Everyone knows that the police are always with you 24/7 and that there is absolutely no need to be able to defend yourself, they'll do it for you.

Everyone believes that 80+ olds (see the last link below) would just as easily be able to defend themselves without a gun against a young hoodlum.

Right?

What about:
http://www.kltv.com/story/37406038/bowie-county-sheriffs-office-private-citizen-shot-man-trying-to-break-into-home

https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/waffle-house-customer-shoots-armed-robbers-photos-released

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/crime_police/article_05488ee0-088d-11e8-881d-2f2e163c4e43.html

http://www.wtae.com/article/one-dead-after-shooting-in-springdale-township/16565279

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/utah/articles/2018-02-04/pistol-packing-passer-by-aids-utah-policeman-being-assaulted

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Concealed-Carry-holder-holds-robbery-suspect-until-deputies-arrive-472231523.html

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/indian-river-county/2018/02/01/shooting-reported-southwest-indian-river-county/1088776001/

http://myfox8.com/2018/02/01/fort-bragg-soldier-allegedly-shoots-kills-wifes-attacker-at-north-carolina-home/

https://txktoday.com/crime/man-shot-attempting-break-house-liberty-eylau/

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/holyoke_man_arrested_for_assau.html

https://patch.com/florida/landolakes/new-port-richey-mother-says-son-strangled-her-so-she-shot-him

http://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/local/maryland/83-year-old-retired-md-teacher-shoots-intruder/513321441

(This is just from one week, and it's a drop in the bucket. It doesn't include cases where just displaying the weapon caused the criminal to walk away, but those are people saved as well. Etc.)

Come on. It's "ridiculous" to believe those news reports. You should only believe the ones where guns killed people.

All on their own.

Big, black, bad, scary looking guns.

Just killed people.

Common sense.

It's so ridiculous to believe that the proper use of a gun can save a person, that I'll just insult people who bring up that point.

That'll prove me right and them wrong.

Right?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 10:16:55 AM
If you need to purpose ideas, at least purpose idea that everyone could agree with, and that might actually help.

(Mental health, increasing armed security in schools, etc.)
One of the issues here is that some just keep saying mental heath as if repeating those words will actually do something. The attempt made by BO to do that was attacked like this. (note the appeal to authority)
That's not what BO tried to do. He was trying to grab guns from people without any demonstrated danger and without any due process. There's a reason why such "right-wing NRA-style" groups like the ACLU opposed his gun grab.
Yet we have not heard how it SHOULD be done. If you feel there is a way to use some sort of mental health guidelines to avoid some of these shootings please tell us instead of just repeating the words "mental health". Until you can give a real proposal that is nothing at all but a distraction.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 10:19:17 AM
Sure, because everyone knows that having a gun never saved anyone's life, or saved someone from being injured, or saved someone from being raped, or having their property taken.

Everyone knows that the police are always with you 24/7 and that there is absolutely no need to be able to defend yourself, they'll do it for you.

Everyone believes that 80+ olds (see the last link below) would just as easily be able to defend themselves without a gun against a young hoodlum.

Right?

What about:
http://www.kltv.com/story/37406038/bowie-county-sheriffs-office-private-citizen-shot-man-trying-to-break-into-home (http://www.kltv.com/story/37406038/bowie-county-sheriffs-office-private-citizen-shot-man-trying-to-break-into-home)

https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/waffle-house-customer-shoots-armed-robbers-photos-released (https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/waffle-house-customer-shoots-armed-robbers-photos-released)

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/crime_police/article_05488ee0-088d-11e8-881d-2f2e163c4e43.html (http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/crime_police/article_05488ee0-088d-11e8-881d-2f2e163c4e43.html)

http://www.wtae.com/article/one-dead-after-shooting-in-springdale-township/16565279 (http://www.wtae.com/article/one-dead-after-shooting-in-springdale-township/16565279)

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/utah/articles/2018-02-04/pistol-packing-passer-by-aids-utah-policeman-being-assaulted (https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/utah/articles/2018-02-04/pistol-packing-passer-by-aids-utah-policeman-being-assaulted)

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Concealed-Carry-holder-holds-robbery-suspect-until-deputies-arrive-472231523.html (http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Concealed-Carry-holder-holds-robbery-suspect-until-deputies-arrive-472231523.html)

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/indian-river-county/2018/02/01/shooting-reported-southwest-indian-river-county/1088776001/ (https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/indian-river-county/2018/02/01/shooting-reported-southwest-indian-river-county/1088776001/)

http://myfox8.com/2018/02/01/fort-bragg-soldier-allegedly-shoots-kills-wifes-attacker-at-north-carolina-home/ (http://myfox8.com/2018/02/01/fort-bragg-soldier-allegedly-shoots-kills-wifes-attacker-at-north-carolina-home/)

https://txktoday.com/crime/man-shot-attempting-break-house-liberty-eylau/ (https://txktoday.com/crime/man-shot-attempting-break-house-liberty-eylau/)

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/holyoke_man_arrested_for_assau.html (http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/holyoke_man_arrested_for_assau.html)

https://patch.com/florida/landolakes/new-port-richey-mother-says-son-strangled-her-so-she-shot-him (https://patch.com/florida/landolakes/new-port-richey-mother-says-son-strangled-her-so-she-shot-him)

http://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/local/maryland/83-year-old-retired-md-teacher-shoots-intruder/513321441 (http://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/local/maryland/83-year-old-retired-md-teacher-shoots-intruder/513321441)

(This is just from one week, and it's a drop in the bucket. It doesn't include cases where just displaying the weapon caused the criminal to walk away, but those are people saved as well. Etc.)

Come on. It's "ridiculous" to believe those news reports. You should only believe the ones where guns killed people.

All on their own.

Big, black, bad, scary looking guns.

Just killed people.

Common sense.

It's so ridiculous to believe that the proper use of a gun can save a person, that I'll just insult people who bring up that point.

That'll prove me right and them wrong.

Right?

Straw man. He has only been arguing against assault rifles. How many lives have those saved. It is a bit ridiculous to be claiming that the one who may own more guns than anyone else on this forum is saying what you are claiming.

It is also a false absolute argument. He also never claimed that they have not saved any lives. He only disputed the claim they they saved more than were murdered.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 10:21:53 AM
Sure, because everyone knows that having a gun never saved anyone's life, or saved someone from being injured, or saved someone from being raped, or having their property taken.
Take a deep breath and breath. Look at what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. No one ever said guns do not save lives. For the record it saved my mothers life and mine during a home invasion.

Now back to your claim that guns have saved more lives than murders committed. It you want to revise that statement please do. Otherwise you are going to have to provide 30k+ more links to prove your point just for last year alone.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 10:22:30 AM
Straw man. He has only been arguing against assault rifles. How many lives have those saved. It is a bit ridiculous to be claiming that the one who may own more guns than anyone else on this forum is saying what you are claiming.

It is also a false absolute argument. He also never claimed that they have not saved any lives. He only disputed the claim they they saved more than were murdered.
Can we get a WIKI of everyone's opinions?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 10:23:45 AM
Can we get a WIKI of everyone's opinions?
You want to give me a hint to what question you want answered?
...or were you just jumping on the bandwagon?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 10:26:15 AM
For the record it saved my mothers life and mine during a home invasion.
WOW!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 10:28:12 AM
...or were you just jumping on the bandwagon?
I was asking you to answer someone else's question, so wasn't going to ask it my way
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 10:31:08 AM
I was asking you to answer someone else's question, so wasn't going to ask it my way
There have been hundreds of questions asked and answered. I am sure I missed some and ignored ones I thought were stupid. If you are going to accuse me of something at least have the common curtesy to point to what you are accusing me of.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 10:36:41 AM
Take a deep breath and breath. Look at what I wrote and not what you think I wrote. No one ever said guns do not save lives. For the record it saved my mothers life and mine during a home invasion.

Now back to your claim that guns have saved more lives than murders committed. It you want to revise that statement please do. Otherwise you are going to have to provide 30k+ more links to prove your point just for last year alone.
I made a very specific claim, purposefully.


...many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...

This claim was in response to those claiming that banning certain types of guns, or all guns, is common sense and therefore a good thing to try. They brought no proof beyond "common sense".

If you agree, and witnessed - as you claim, that guns can save lives, why do I need to prove my claim beyond "common sense"?

I don't. I've shown that common sense allows the claim that guns save lives. Therefore restricting them will harm innocent civilians.

First prove that your proposal to restrict the amount or types of guns won't harm innocent civilians, then I'll prove my point.

If common sense is the standard for your preferred policy choices, I won't accept a double standard for my policy choices.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 10:38:04 AM
I think they are referring to this
I agree with him that we can't arbitrarily take away peoples rights without due process. Do you disagree with that or do you believe the law did not do that?
Link to the law? Was it challenged in court?
It was repealed before it actually went into effect.
https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF (https://www.ssa.gov/regulations/NPRM--Implementation%20of%20the%20NICS%20Improvement%20Amendments%20Act%20of%202007%20%28NIAA%29.PDF)
If you want a question answered then maybe explain why you feel that the law is problematic and how you feel a better when to regulate guns based upon mental health would be. I wouldn't have an issue with that and I don't think @ChaimMoskowitz would either. Until you can come up with a proposal of how a good way to regulate based on mental health would be we need to assume that the repetition of "mental health, mental health" is merely a foil. PUOSU!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 10:41:21 AM
I made a very specific claim, purposefully.

This claim was in response to those claiming that banning certain types of guns, or all guns, is common sense and therefore a good thing to try. They brought no proof beyond "common sense".

If you agree, and witnessed - as you claim, that guns can save lives, why do I need to prove my claim beyond "common sense"?

I don't. I've shown that common sense allows the claim that guns save lives. Therefore restricting them will harm innocent civilians.

First prove that your proposal to restrict the amount or types of guns won't harm innocent civilians, then I'll prove my point.

If common sense is the standard for your preferred policy choices, I won't accept a double standard for my policy choices.
Part of common sense is to use logical arguments. You have not.
You have brought cases where handguns have saved lives and then used that to show that assault weapons should not be banned. That is a fallacy of composition.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Dan on February 18, 2018, 10:48:48 AM
The same people that say we should copy Israel for security lessons at airports, etc. are against copying many of Israel's common sense gun laws...

The 2nd amendment can be reconciled with many of them while stopping the vast majority of these tragedies.

Alas when it comes to guns, all common sense goes out the window.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 10:54:45 AM
I made a very specific claim, purposefully.

This claim was in response to those claiming that banning certain types of guns, or all guns, is common sense and therefore a good thing to try. They brought no proof beyond "common sense".

If you agree, and witnessed - as you claim, that guns can save lives, why do I need to prove my claim beyond "common sense"?

I don't. I've shown that common sense allows the claim that guns save lives. Therefore restricting them will harm innocent civilians.

First prove that your proposal to restrict the amount or types of guns won't harm innocent civilians, then I'll prove my point.

If common sense is the standard for your preferred policy choices, I won't accept a double standard for my policy choices.
If your claim was that guns save many lives then I agree with you 100%. Instead you said guns save more lives than murders committed with them. That is not true.

I said it was common sense to ban AR's so lets not blame others. An AR is an assault rifle and you and I both know it. It can be used for other things like hunting and target practice but that is not its main purpose. Banning it would not effect any hunter one bit. I have hunted my whole life. Not one person I know has ever hunted with an AR. Many of them do own them.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 10:56:08 AM
The same people that say we should copy Israel for security lessons at airports, etc. are against copying many of Israel's common sense gun laws...

The 2nd amendment can be reconciled with many of them while stopping the vast majority of these tragedies.

Alas when it comes to guns, all common sense goes out the window.
There was a reason I ask questions about Israel's gun laws in this thread.  ;)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 11:08:04 AM
I think they are referring to thisIf you want a question answered then maybe explain why you feel that the law is problematic and how you feel a better when to regulate guns based upon mental health would be. I wouldn't have an issue with that and I don't think @ChaimMoskowitz would either. Until you can come up with a proposal of how a good way to regulate based on mental health would be we need to assume that the repetition of "mental health, mental health" is merely a foil. PUOSU!
That is the what I was referring to, and both times that I asked CM to answer, I quoted that discussion so he can easily seen which question I was referring to.

I explained that the issue with the law, is that it takes away rights from people without due process, where there is no proof that they are a danger to themselves or others, other than the fact that they were classified a certain way by the government. In saying that the law should've been repealed as it was, the onus is not on me to come up with a better solution (that's very important, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the law was wrong).
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 11:09:30 AM

Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 11:11:06 AM
That is the what I was referring to, and both times that I asked CM to answer, I quoted that discussion so he can easily seen which question I was referring to.

I explained that the issue with the law, is that it takes away rights from people without due process, where there is no proof that they are a danger to themselves or others, other than the fact that they were classified a certain way by the government. In saying that the law should've been repealed as it was, the onus is not on me to come up with a better solution (that's very important, but it doesn't take away from the fact that the law was wrong).
But if you say mental health as a solution then the onus is on you to say exactly what solution regarding mental health you find acceptable. Otherwise it is only a foil to really say that you accept no solution at all.

PUOSU!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 11:12:29 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWMK5YPWkAM-bjX.jpg)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 11:15:26 AM


Otherwise you are going to have to provide 30k+ more links to prove your point just for last year alone.

While every life lost by suicide is terrible, I don't think they should be included in this equation. Someone deciding to take their own life should not be a reason to stop people from owning guns (yes we should try to help those people and even take away THEIR guns)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 18, 2018, 11:17:49 AM
Thats a separate discussion, unrelated to the law we are discussing
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 11:18:42 AM

While every life lost by suicide is terrible, I don't think they should be included in this equation. Someone deciding to take their own life should not be a reason to stop people from owning guns (yes we should try to help those people and even take away THEIR guns)
This has nothing to do with people owning guns. It was just to correct a statement so we are on the same page. You cant throw things out there an expect them to go unchallenged.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 11:27:28 AM
Part of common sense is to use logical arguments. You have not.
You have brought cases where handguns have saved lives and then used that to show that assault weapons should not be banned. That is a fallacy of composition.
I brought twelve links, which actually lead to eleven stories, as two were regarding the same incident. (Different news agencies and different town names caused this error.)

Only three mention explicitly what type of gun was used: handguns.

In three more stories, despite there being no explicit mention, it's likely, based either on the wording and/or where the incident took place, that it was a handgun.

That leaves us with five reports of people using guns to protect themselves in their homes, where the type of gun used isn't mentioned.

Yet somehow you claim that I've only brought cases of handguns saving lives.

This is what passes for honest, reasoned discussion in these parts.

Sad.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 11:28:01 AM
Thats a separate discussion, unrelated to the law we are discussing
I assume this was a response to me. If there are issues with due process those can be fixed. Would you be supportive of a law similar to that one with an appeal process?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 11:31:58 AM
I brought twelve links, which actually lead to eleven stories, as two were regarding the same incident. (Different news agencies and different town names caused this error.)

Only three mention explicitly what type of gun was used: handguns.

In three more stories, despite there being no explicit mention, it's likely, based either on the wording and/or where the incident took place, that it was a handgun.

That leaves us with five reports of people using guns to protect themselves in their homes, where the type of gun used isn't mentioned.

Yet somehow you claim that I've only brought cases of handguns saving lives.

This is what passes for honest, reasoned discussion in these parts.

Sad.

Huh? Because it doesn't say that it was a handgun we should assume that it was an assault rifle? argumentum ad ignorantiam
If we don't know that it was an assault rifle then how does it show anything? You are trying to show something about assault rifles saving lives and have not done so.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 18, 2018, 11:46:51 AM
I brought twelve links, which actually lead to eleven stories, as two were regarding the same incident. (Different news agencies and different town names caused this error.)

Only three mention explicitly what type of gun was used: handguns.

In three more stories, despite there being no explicit mention, it's likely, based either on the wording and/or where the incident took place, that it was a handgun.

That leaves us with five reports of people using guns to protect themselves in their homes, where the type of gun used isn't mentioned.

Yet somehow you claim that I've only brought cases of handguns saving lives.

This is what passes for honest, reasoned discussion in these parts.

Sad.
i guess we're all assuming that its obvious that an assault rifle is far from being the weapon of choice in a home invasion , and that people that do choose to defend their homes will be using a more sensible weapon.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 11:50:14 AM
i guess we're all assuming that its obvious that an assault rifle is far from being the weapon of choice in a home invasion , and that people that do choose to defend their homes will be using a more sensible weapon.
I prefer a BAR but a need a special permit for that.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 18, 2018, 11:52:15 AM
I prefer a BAR but a need a special permit for that.  :)
do they even make them anymore?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 12:00:53 PM
If your claim was that guns save many lives then I agree with you 100%. Instead you said guns save more lives than murders committed with them. That is not true.

I said it was common sense to ban AR's so lets not blame others. An AR is an assault rifle and you and I both know it. It can be used for other things like hunting and target practice but that is not its main purpose. Banning it would not effect any hunter one bit. I have hunted my whole life. Not one person I know has ever hunted with an AR. Many of them do own them.
That's not my claim. I'll quote myself again.


...many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...
I don't care about felon on felon violence (e.g. one drug gang killing another drug gang over territory) or suicide in the context of removing ways for innocent civilians protecting themselves.

That's my claim and I've given the common sense basis for it.

As for your "common sense" about AR's...

AR's are used in crime in miniscule proportion to handguns.

Vast majority of mass shootings in US are done with handguns.

Vast majority of mass casualty shootings (four or more deaths) in US are with handguns.

The deadliest school shooting in the US was done with handguns. (It was also the deadliest school shooting in the world not committed by terrorists.)

To be blunt, the only thing "common sense" here is that you don't have any on the topic of dangers from AR's.

As for your claims about hunting with AR's, please.

1. Hunters do use AR's.

 https://youtu.be/dVMpg3_Ry40

2. For some hunters or types of hunts, AR's are preferred.

http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/

(Claims to superior knowledge notwithstanding...)

3. Hunting isn't the reason for 2A.

4. We don't have to prove our reasons for exercising Constitutional rights. Same as someone using 1A doesn't need to prove that his free speech has utility.

You, who want to restrict the right, need to prove that there's an overwhelming public harm that can't be met any other reasonable way, that won't cause more harm if restricted.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 18, 2018, 12:05:45 PM
That's not my claim. I'll quote myself again.
I don't care about felon on felon violence (e.g. one drug gang killing another drug gang over territory) or suicide in the context of removing ways for innocent civilians protecting themselves.

That's my claim and I've given the common sense basis for it.

As for your "common sense" about AR's...

AR's are used in crime in miniscule proportion to handguns.

Vast majority of mass shootings in US are done with handguns.

Vast majority of mass casualty shootings (four or more deaths) in US are with handguns.

The deadliest school shooting in the US was done with handguns. (It was also the deadliest school shooting in the world not committed by terrorists.)

To be blunt, the only thing "common sense" here is that you don't have any on the topic of dangers from AR's.

As for your claims about hunting with AR's, please.

1. Hunters do use AR's.

 https://youtu.be/dVMpg3_Ry40


2. For some hunters or types of hunts, AR's are preferred.

http://time.com/4390506/gun-control-ar-15-semiautomatic-rifles/

(Claims to superior knowledge notwithstanding...)

3. Hunting isn't the reason for 2A.

4. We don't have to prove our reasons for exercising Constitutional rights. Same as someone using 1A doesn't need to prove that his free speech has utility.

You, who want to restrict the right, need to prove that there's an overwhelming public harm that can't be met any other reasonable way, that won't cause more harm if restricted.
lol notice how the hunters were doing a very poor job hunting.
those pigs just wont die!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 12:07:03 PM
i guess we're all assuming that its obvious that an assault rifle is far from being the weapon of choice in a home invasion , and that people that do choose to defend their homes will be using a more sensible weapon.
Yes, about that "obvious" assumption, here is a link where you can educate yourself.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 18, 2018, 12:10:19 PM
Yes, about that "obvious" assumption, here is a link where you can educate yourself.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
your expert agrees that over penetration is a issue by the assault rifle. he says that bullet for bullet a handgun is possibly worse.
but in a AR15 it wont be bullet for bullet
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 12:13:58 PM

Vast majority of mass shootings in US are done with handguns.

Vast majority of mass casualty shootings (four or more deaths) in US are with handguns.

The deadliest school shooting in the US was done with handguns. (It was also the deadliest school shooting in the world not committed by terrorists.)
We have already gone through how these arguments are fallacious.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 12:14:49 PM
That's not my claim. I'll quote myself again.
No that was your claim. Now you want to qualify it and that is fine. At least you come to realize that more murders have been committed with guns than lives saved.

You love to cherry pick statistics. You seem to have left the deadliest mass shooting committed with an AR.

You are also fuzzy on the constitution. Even so called free speech has restrictions. SCOTUS has allowed restrictions on guns.

Yes an AR can be used for hunting. It can also be used to hammer a nail and even dig a hole. The fact is it is an assault rifle. If you know anything at all about guns you would not even argue this fact.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 12:14:52 PM
Yes, about that "obvious" assumption, here is a link where you can educate yourself.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
Finally a substantive argument. Wow it took this long.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 12:15:22 PM
do they even make them anymore?
No but they were built to last forever.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 12:28:48 PM
Huh? Because it doesn't say that it was a handgun we should assume that it was an assault rifle? argumentum ad ignorantiam
If we don't know that it was an assault rifle then how does it show anything? You are trying to show something about assault rifles saving lives and have not done so.
1. First off, as I've explained to @gingyguy, the use of an AR, particularly in home defense, is reasonable.

Many, many experts feel it's preferred. (To be honest, at this time I don't recall a single expert who prefers a different gun for home defense, although perhaps you can find.)

There's absolutely no reason to assume or dismiss it's use in that capacity beyond the percentage of homes that have them, compared to other guns.

And if they have both types of guns, it's reasonable to assume they would choose the better one, the AR.

So your claim that the stories were only about handguns, was either a) you didn't bother to read them, b) lack of reading comprehension, c) lack of honesty.

2. I wasn't trying to show something about AR's. I was trying to show the common sense basis for believing that guns save more lives of innocent citizens then are murdered by them.

Let me refresh your memory.

What's the question?
How do want me to respond to some idiotic statement that guns saved more lives each year than murders committed. That's like me saying the Torah was written by the devil.

And my response:



Sure, because everyone knows that having a gun never saved anyone's life, or saved someone from being injured, or saved someone from being raped, or having their property taken.

Everyone knows that the police are always with you 24/7 and that there is absolutely no need to be able to defend yourself, they'll do it for you.

Everyone believes that 80+ olds (see the last link below) would just as easily be able to defend themselves without a gun against a young hoodlum.

Right?

What about:
http://www.kltv.com/story/37406038/bowie-county-sheriffs-office-private-citizen-shot-man-trying-to-break-into-home

https://patch.com/georgia/woodstock/waffle-house-customer-shoots-armed-robbers-photos-released

http://www.theadvocate.com/new_orleans/news/crime_police/article_05488ee0-088d-11e8-881d-2f2e163c4e43.html

http://www.wtae.com/article/one-dead-after-shooting-in-springdale-township/16565279

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-states/utah/articles/2018-02-04/pistol-packing-passer-by-aids-utah-policeman-being-assaulted

http://www.wbko.com/content/news/Concealed-Carry-holder-holds-robbery-suspect-until-deputies-arrive-472231523.html

https://www.tcpalm.com/story/news/crime/indian-river-county/2018/02/01/shooting-reported-southwest-indian-river-county/1088776001/

http://myfox8.com/2018/02/01/fort-bragg-soldier-allegedly-shoots-kills-wifes-attacker-at-north-carolina-home/

https://txktoday.com/crime/man-shot-attempting-break-house-liberty-eylau/

http://www.masslive.com/news/index.ssf/2018/01/holyoke_man_arrested_for_assau.html

https://patch.com/florida/landolakes/new-port-richey-mother-says-son-strangled-her-so-she-shot-him

http://www.wusa9.com/mobile/article/news/local/maryland/83-year-old-retired-md-teacher-shoots-intruder/513321441

(This is just from one week, and it's a drop in the bucket. It doesn't include cases where just displaying the weapon caused the criminal to walk away, but those are people saved as well. Etc.)

Come on. It's "ridiculous" to believe those news reports. You should only believe the ones where guns killed people.

All on their own.

Big, black, bad, scary looking guns.

Just killed people.

Common sense.

It's so ridiculous to believe that the proper use of a gun can save a person, that I'll just insult people who bring up that point.

That'll prove me right and them wrong.

Right?
Once again, not quoting my claims correctly.

People are trying to score debating points, not trying to have an honest, serious discussion.

Sad.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 12:29:42 PM
Yes, about that "obvious" assumption, here is a link where you can educate yourself.

https://www.americanrifleman.org/articles/2015/5/26/the-ar-for-home-defense-one-experts-opinion
How many links you want me to produce showing a handgun is the best choice. Try and use common sense if at all possible.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 12:32:57 PM
your expert agrees that over penetration is a issue by the assault rifle. he says that bullet for bullet a handgun is possibly worse.
but in a AR15 it wont be bullet for bullet
No. He states quite explicitly that overpenetration is an issue by all bullets, but certainly worse from pistols and shotguns.

"The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration." 
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: gingyguy on February 18, 2018, 12:34:23 PM
No. He states quite explicitly that overpenetration is an issue by all bullets, but certainly worse from pistols and shotguns.

"The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration."
but shooting more bullets (assault weapon) gets you more over penetration
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 12:35:17 PM
Once again, not quoting my claims correctly.

People are trying to score debating points, not trying to have an honest, serious discussion.

Sad.
This has nothing to do with debating points. If you claim 1+1=3 then yes we can't have an honest discussion.

Be honest and admit you were mistaken when you said: guns saved more lives each year than murders committed.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 12:37:34 PM
1. First off, as I've explained to @gingyguy, the use of an AR, particularly in home defense, is reasonable.

Many, many experts feel it's preferred. (To be honest, at this time I don't recall a single expert who prefers a different gun for home defense, although perhaps you can find.)

There's absolutely no reason to assume or dismiss it's use in that capacity beyond the percentage of homes that have them, compared to other guns.

And if they have both types of guns, it's reasonable to assume they would choose the better one, the AR.

So your claim that the stories were only about handguns, was either a) you didn't bother to read them, b) lack of reading comprehension, c) lack of honesty.
My point was that it shows nothing about ARs how about we only go with what can be actaully shown without any assumptions at all. I did not say that they definitely were handguns, only that they were not shown to be ARs. If you have something to show about ARs then go ahead and do so. Don't expect me to answer just from your saying those could have been ARs.


2. I wasn't trying to show something about AR's. I was trying to show the common sense basis for believing that guns save more lives of innocent citizens then are murdered by them.

Let me refresh your memory.

And my response:


Once again, not quoting my claims correctly.

People are trying to score debating points, not trying to have an honest, serious discussion.

Sad.
As part of a disucssion where all @ChaimMoskowitz proposed was to ban ARs. The way you are making such blatantly fallacious arguments and exaggerating what people have written while also constantly in almost every single post making personal attacks makes a statement about who is the one not ready for an honest discussion.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 12:50:32 PM
No that was your claim. Now you want to qualify it and that is fine. At least you come to realize that more murders have been committed with guns than lives saved.

You love to cherry pick statistics. You seem to have left the deadliest mass shooting committed with an AR.

You are also fuzzy on the constitution. Even so called free speech has restrictions. SCOTUS has allowed restrictions on guns.

Yes an AR can be used for hunting. It can also be used to hammer a nail and even dig a hole. The fact is it is an assault rifle. If you know anything at all about guns you would not even argue this fact.
Let's quote my claim again.

...many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...
Can't we agree on the truth when it's starting us in the face?

Sad.

If you don't like my statistics, bring your own. If you'll provide links to your statistics, I'll did the same. Until then this is just innuendo of someone losing an argument.

As for your innuendo about my grasp on the Constitution, here was my last Constitutional response to you.

...
4. We don't have to prove our reasons for exercising Constitutional rights. Same as someone using 1A doesn't need to prove that his free speech has utility.

You, who want to restrict the right, need to prove that there's an overwhelming public harm that can't be met any other reasonable way, that won't cause more harm if restricted.

What was"fuzzy"? Where did I say that there can be no restrictions?

As for your remarks about the uses of AR's, I've already addressed this above.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
This has nothing to do with debating points. If you claim 1+1=3 then yes we can't have an honest discussion.

Be honest and admit you were mistaken when you said: guns saved more lives each year than murders committed.
You mangle my claim and then expect me to accept it as my own?

I chose my words carefully and specifically.

Here is what I actually said: "...many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them..."

And here is the link to it:

...many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 12:55:51 PM
Let's quote my claim again. Can't we agree on the truth when it's starting us in the face?

Sad.

If you don't like my statistics, bring your own. If you'll provide links to your statistics, I'll did the same. Until then this is just innuendo of someone losing an argument.
Where did you bring any statistics showing which was more than the other? Burden of proof fallacy. You hav not backed up your claim at all. He does not need to prove it wrong. If you feel that the numbers of saved is higher go show it not just that there are some who were saved.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:02:44 PM
Here is the exact quote:
Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.
Now you say:
Can't we agree on the truth when it's starting us in the face?
In 2016 we had over 17k+ murders. Please show me where over 17k+ lives were saved by guns in 2016. If you can't just admit you were mistaken and move on.
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-statistics-us-murders-were-up-in-2016-and-chicago-had-a-lot-to-do-with-it/

ETA: Those stats where not all murders. Change stats to 2014 and 8k+. Will try and find updated stats.
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-statistics-us-murders-were-up-in-2016-and-chicago-had-a-lot-to-do-with-it/
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 01:07:57 PM
Here is the exact quote:Now you say:In 2016 we had over 17k+ murders. Please show me where over 17k+ lives were saved by guns in 2016. If you can't just admit you were mistaken and move on.
https://qz.com/1086403/fbi-crime-statistics-us-murders-were-up-in-2016-and-chicago-had-a-lot-to-do-with-it/
Were all of those 17k killed by guns?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:10:24 PM
Were all of those 17k killed by guns?
Didn't look but I am guessing the answer is no. Thanks for pointing that out. Let me go Google again.  :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: TimT on February 18, 2018, 01:18:40 PM
Let me go Google again.  :)
Thats where itís all coming from ? ::)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:19:45 PM
but shooting more bullets (assault weapon) gets you more over penetration
Shooting more bullets from an AR (which is an assumption which we'll get back to) will incur more instances, but not more (further distance) over-penetration.

Experts feel that AR's are better since you'll miss less often, which is the single biggest issue leading to over-penetration.

This is in that article.

There is no reason to assume that having an AR will lead to "spray and pray". You could just as easily "spray and pray" with a pistol. This boils down to common sense, training, and being responsible for each bullet you shoot.

Finally, not all AR magazines have more bullets, particularly if you live in a state that restricts magazine capacity, in which case they'll both have the same, leaving you with the more accurate, less penetrating weapon in the AR.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:19:54 PM
Thats where itís all coming from ? ::)
Ya, I have to rely on FBI stats. I know what you and think of them.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:22:10 PM
Experts feel that AR's are better since you'll miss less often, which is the single biggest issue leading to over-penetration.
In a home defense situation. Are you going to be shooting from the hip or taking your time and aiming?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 18, 2018, 01:22:54 PM
Didn't look but I am guessing the answer is no. Thanks for pointing that out. Let me go Google again.  :)
Plus you have to remove felons, suicides and anyone else included in @ssvarc's arbitrary criteria.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: TimT on February 18, 2018, 01:25:09 PM
Ya, I have to rely on FBI stats. I know what you and think of them.
I think of them the same you know of them.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:26:44 PM
I think of them the same you know of them.
Can someone dumb this done for me?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:27:11 PM
Were all of those 17k killed by guns?
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 01:30:20 PM
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
It was a murder number. Why are felon in felon okay?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:31:20 PM
Plus you have to remove felons, suicides and anyone else included in @ssvarc's arbitrary criteria.
You call it arbitrary?

Why should suicides be a reason to remove a tool from the law abiding citizen to defend himself?

Why should felons killing each other be a reason to penalize law abiding citizens and remove a tool that they can use to protect themselves?

I called it specific and careful and stand by that characterisation.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:31:31 PM
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
I guess I missed all that or you forgot to mention that with this stupid claim.
Finally, since many more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them, any broad based ban will end up causing even more innocent deaths. The exact opposite of any sane policy choice.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:33:18 PM
I called it specific and careful and stand by that characterisation.
No you got called out on your ridicules original statement and now are try to backtrack. That is fine because it shows you were originally mistaken.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:34:36 PM
It was a murder number. Why are felon in felon okay?
It was murders of innocent citizens by guns.

The reason for felon on felon, it's what I answered @Yehuda57:

You call it arbitrary?

Why should suicides be a reason to remove a tool from the law abiding citizen to defend himself?

Why should felons killing each other be a reason to penalize law abiding citizens and remove a tool that they can use to protect themselves?

I called it specific and careful and stand by that characterisation.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 18, 2018, 01:34:47 PM
And how many were murders, as opposed to suicide?

And how many were innocent citizens murdered, as opposed to felon on felon murders?
Are you ever going to back up your claims?

By excluding suicide, felons or anyone else, are you saying you value the right to owning an assault rifle more than you value human life?

How many people die by accidental shootings? I'd wager it's more than innocents saved by guns.

And thus far my wager is as much evidence as you are willing to put up.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 01:37:40 PM
Just to be clear. I have no solid opinion on the matter other than that something is broken with the current system. Only one solid idea has been advanced and that is by @ChaimMoskowitz and it seems logical to me. Meanwhile most of the opposing opinions here have been against straw men which leads me to believe that there is not much of a logical argument against his proposal. When it comes to which gun is not appropriate for defense I am lost so for me it stands that there is difference of opinion about that as well as regarding some forms of hunting. That does seem to now undermine his argument. Does anyone have any real proposals to help with the current gun issue in this country?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:40:31 PM
I suggested banning AR and HCM. I have yet to see an defense for having 50-100 round HCM's.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 01:41:50 PM
I guess I missed all that or you forgot to mention that with this stupid claim.
I'll explain it to you slowly and carefully, once, and then I'm done.

My words were "... more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...".

Innocent citizens = as opposed to felon on felon
Murdered = as opposed to suicide
By guns = so you shouldn't quote me all homicides, including those committed with clubs, feet, cars, etc.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 01:45:47 PM
I'll explain it to you slowly and carefully, once, and then I'm done.

My words were "... more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...".

Innocent citizens = as opposed to felon on felon
Murdered = as opposed to suicide
By guns = so you shouldn't quote me all homicides, including those committed with clubs, feet, cars, etc.
You still have not presented any numbers to back up that claim.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 01:49:07 PM
I'll explain it to you slowly and carefully, once, and then I'm done.

My words were "... more innocent citizens lives are saved by guns every year then are murdered by them...".

Innocent citizens = as opposed to felon on felon
Murdered = as opposed to suicide
By guns = so you shouldn't quote me all homicides, including those committed with clubs, feet, cars, etc.
I will explain it to you so even a 1st grader can understand. I post FBI stats for 7k+ murders in 2014. You posted a few links from different years. You are over 7k short of backing up your idiotic claim. PUOSTOGWH!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 02:22:19 PM


Are you ever going to back up your claims?

A fair question. It depends who's asking. When I think the question is sincere by someone who's trying to understand, I'm willing to assist (e.g. reference my reply to @gingyguy).

However, if the people asking play a double standard where their claims are "logical", "common sense", etc. and I need to bring proof, no thanks.


I made a very specific claim, purposefully.

This claim was in response to those claiming that banning certain types of guns, or all guns, is common sense and therefore a good thing to try. They brought no proof beyond "common sense".

If you agree, and witnessed - as you claim, that guns can save lives, why do I need to prove my claim beyond "common sense"?

I don't. I've shown that common sense allows the claim that guns save lives. Therefore restricting them will harm innocent civilians.

First prove that your proposal to restrict the amount or types of guns won't harm innocent civilians, then I'll prove my point.

If common sense is the standard for your preferred policy choices, I won't accept a double standard for my policy choices.

By excluding suicide, felons or anyone else, are you saying you value the right to owning an assault rifle more than you value human life?

No.

It's saying that people who commit suicide can easily do so without guns. (Removing guns in general won't have an significant impact as people can and will substitute other means. Removing AR's is statistically meaningless, as the vast overwhelming majority of suicides by firearms are with handguns.)

As public policy, I value giving law abiding citizens all means to protect themselves (for all threats) over worrying about felons killing each other.

Especially, since felons don't listen to laws by definition, and passing a ban on AR's won't magically suck them out of America (that ignoring that AR's are relatively easy to construct and getting even easier). Such a ban will leave law abiding citizens relatively disarmed while having little impact on criminals.

How many people die by accidental shootings? I'd wager it's more than innocents saved by guns.

And thus far my wager is as much evidence as you are willing to put up.

You'd lose that wager.

Accidental shootings, while terribly tragic, are a small percent of innocent people being killed by guns.

And is nothing compared to many more common dangers. E.g. Far more people drown each year then die in accidental shootings.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 02:29:42 PM
You'd lose that wager.

Accidental shootings, while terribly tragic, are a small percent of innocent people being killed by guns.

And is nothing compared to many more common dangers. E.g. Far more people drown each year then die in accidental shootings.
You are a joke. You have no answer so you avoid the question. Give the stats and not for drowning which I have no idea where that came from.

Still waiting for you to produce stats to backup your claim that 7k+ plus lives were saved by guns in 2014.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 02:44:53 PM

A fair question. It depends who's asking. When I think the question is sincere by someone who's trying to understand, I'm willing to assist (e.g. reference my reply to @gingyguy).

However, if the people asking play a double standard where their claims are "logical", "common sense", etc. and I need to bring proof, no thanks.

So basically anyone who asks a question you don't wish to answer allows you to say that the person is insincere. I did not say that you should agree with it because it is logical. I was very clear that I felt something should be done and his proposal made sense to me while until the most recent posts all you had to offer were straw men and ad hominem attacks. Finally in the last hour or so you actually made an argument showing practical uses for an AR15 which now changes the dynamics as i wrote before (but as @ChaimMoskowitz mentioned does not address HCM)
When it comes to which gun is not appropriate for defense I am lost so for me it stands that there is difference of opinion about that as well as regarding some forms of hunting. That does seem to now undermine his argument.
After I asked you what those were on Friday it took a whole bunch of straw men and ad hominem attacks before you actually answered the question. Meanwhile you have not backed up your claim that guns saved more innocent lives than they have taken despite having been asked numerous times. Instead you have shown that they save some lives which was never disputed. Your constant skirting of facts to back up your basic arguments has left an impression that you make the argument without having the facts and then try to find them later. That leads me to take your statements with a pile of salt.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 02:46:06 PM
If you need to purpose ideas, at least purpose idea that everyone could agree with, and that might actually help.

(Mental health, increasing armed security in schools, etc.)
You mention mental health. Do you have a way to do this which would not have due process issues?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 02:47:09 PM
I will explain it to you so even a 1st grader can understand. I post FBI stats for 7k+ murders in 2014. You posted a few links from different years. You are over 7k short of backing up your idiotic claim. PUOSTOGWH!!!
Must have touched a nerve, as I see you've gone back to innuendo and insult.

You are a joke...

However, contrary to your claim, you posted a Quartz article that lumps all homicides together (felon on felon, innocent citizens, without firearms, etc.), while my claim excludes those. But you know this.

My links were from a one week period. But you should know this if you read them, or read my post when I brought them.

Finally, I've reread the article you linked to several times and don't see the stat there for 7k+.

Why don't you go to the FBI website, pull up the stats and let's have a serious discussion.

Or we can go back to "common sense".

Your choice.

----

I have other things I need to take care beside for having internet discussions, so I'll try to check back in the next few days and see where we're holding.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 02:55:06 PM

Finally, I've reread the article you linked to several times and don't see the stat there for 7k+.

Why don't you go to the FBI website, pull up the stats and let's have a serious discussion.

Or we can go back to "common sense".

Your choice.


The issue is that YOU have made a claim without providing ANY DATA AT ALL to back it up! When you make a claim the burden of proof is on you to show that it is true. Without that it is argumentum ad ignorantiam and anyone can just claim it to be false without proof and will still be on equal footing with you.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 03:05:28 PM
You mention mental health. Do you have a way to do this which would not have due process issues?
I would be glad to discuss over lunch, my treat. We both live in the same town. PM if interested.

Unfortunately, responding to posts from at least four different people as eaten up my entire morning and early afternoon.

I can try to respond piecemeal over the next couple days bl'n online, or we can talk over food.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 03:09:05 PM
Finally, I've reread the article you linked to several times and don't see the stat there for 7k+.
Here is a link for more than 8k each year for the last 20 years. So far you produced a few links were guns were used to stop a crime (your statement says saved lives). The first link they shot an unarmed man. Talk about using fake stats!!!
https://www.infoplease.com/us/crime/murder-victims-weapons-used
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 03:44:08 PM


I would be glad to discuss over lunch, my treat. We both live in the same town. PM if interested.

Unfortunately, responding to posts from at least four different people as eaten up my entire morning and early afternoon.

I can try to respond piecemeal over the next couple days bl'n online, or we can talk over food.

Make a DO!
I'll SU, while ya'll PU.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 03:56:14 PM

Make a DO!
I'll SU, while ya'll PU.
I'm sorry, what's SU and PU?

I would be glad to go to a DO someday, but for a serious discussion like this, no more than two others (three in total).

I'm in the same town as @aygart (as far as I can tell). If you live there as well, would be glad to meet over a meal and discuss. PM if interested and applicable.

Edit: Forget it, I think I figured it out.
Offer stands.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 03:59:16 PM
I'm sorry, what's SU and PU?

I would be glad to go to a DO someday, but for a serious discussion like this, no more than two others (three in total).

I'm in the same town as @aygart (as far as I can tell). If you live there as well, would be glad to meet over a meal and discuss. PM if interested and applicable.
PUOSU=put up or shut up
We can either do a full blown DO, or I can come lurk, won't really join the argument.
And yes, I'm in the same town
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 04:00:46 PM
PUOSU=put up or shut up
We can either do a full blown DO, or I can come lurk, won't really join the argument.
And yes, I'm in the same town
Sure, no problem. One or two guys, would love to discuss.

If interested, PM.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 04:02:38 PM
Sure, no problem. One or two guys, would love to discuss.

If interested, PM.
Post it on the Lakewood DO board if you want a full blown one, if you do just you and AY, I'd love to join, PM if arranged, but I'd likely just wind up asking some halachic questions to AY.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ssvarc on February 18, 2018, 04:07:27 PM
Post it on the Lakewood DO board if you want a full blown one, if you do just you and AY, I'd love to join, PM if arranged, but I'd likely just wind up asking some halachic questions to AY.
No, don't want a full blown DO as I don't think we would be able to have a serious discussion.

@aygart hasn't expressed any interest, nothing arranged.

I would be glad to meet with you alone or together with someone else as well (beside @aygart) - I don't know you guys so it's all relatively the same to me.

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 04:12:00 PM
No, don't want a full blown DO as I don't think we would be able to have a serious discussion.

@aygart hasn't expressed any interest, nothing arranged.

I would be glad to meet with you alone or together with someone else as well (beside @aygart) - I don't know you guys so it's all relatively the same to me.
Have CM fly in and I'm in, I won't really join for something half baked, either a full blown DO, or at least with someone you can argue your point with
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 04:23:43 PM
Have CM fly in and I'm in...
For a discussion about this? You have to be kidding.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 18, 2018, 04:30:37 PM
For a discussion about this? You have to be kidding.
Why not?

You and @Ssvarc meet, you negotiate an agreeable solution, and poof! The next thing you know it's signed off by POTUS.

What a contribution to our Country...
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 04:35:00 PM
Why not?

You and @ssvarc meet, you negotiate an agreeable solution, and poof! The next thing you know it's signed off by POTUS.

What a contribution to our Country...
You don't have DO's to discuss things like this. It would be like me having a DO with @aygart to discuss Judaism. It wouldn't be a discussion. He would be the teacher and I would the student. Same thing with ssvarc expect I would be the student.  ;)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 18, 2018, 04:51:59 PM
In all seriousness I've never formulated an opinion on Gun control. I never owned on, have no interest in owning one. Except for when in the news post tragedy my knowledge is pretty limited about them. ( Whenever I thought about it my thoughts went straight to how scared I would be with my kids around.)

That said I ( believe ) that i understand both sides of the argument.

1)Guns. Americans have a right to Guns. It's the 2A. Got it. However,  No one here believes that we should have tanks outside the house to ward off home invasions. ( It would probably keep the whole neighborhood safe..) There has to be something that can be agreed on. Whether it's assault rifles/ Bump stocks/ ammo amounts etc. I don't know, as I don't pretend to know. My question to @Ssvarc would be, is anything on the table?

2) Mental Health: Due process is something that shouldn't be taken lightly either. A law that gives due process except in an instance of an imminent threat, should be workable( with pork barrel for everyone...) @avromie7 is that fair?

Btw I don't think it's fair to blame Trump on the recent law. It was focused on an entirely different thing. From the various organizations/interest groups it's obvious that it wasn't the intention.

3) If rights are to be discussed then perhaps the agreement can come in a form of Rs giving in to gun rights with D's giving into to voting rights ( as an example ) to make everyone happy. ( Even I don't believe this...but who knows...) @ Chaim Moskowitz I'm way behind in the politics thread...but is this fair..
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 05:11:15 PM
@ Chaim Moskowitz I'm way behind in the politics thread...but is this fair..
Pretty much. One thing you have to remember this isn't a political negotiation where you exchange one pork barrel project for another.

I have already stated mental health issues and school security should be part of this. The other side here won't even agree that things like 50-100 round HCM and bump stocks should be banned. You decide who wants an honest discussion!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 05:20:27 PM
For a discussion about this? You have to be kidding.
Glad you caught on :)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 06:25:00 PM
He hits the nail on the head.


Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:01:15 PM
I would be glad to discuss over lunch, my treat. We both live in the same town. PM if interested.

Unfortunately, responding to posts from at least four different people as eaten up my entire morning and early afternoon.

I can try to respond piecemeal over the next couple days bl'n online, or we can talk over food.
I am rarely able to find the time for these things unfortunately. Much less so for a discussion about guns of all things.

I would love to meet you guys sometime or other anyhow.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:03:10 PM
He hits the nail on the head.
How could he have hit the mail on the head if all he said was that "common sense" proposals "make sense"?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 07:04:30 PM

I am rarely able to find the time for these things unfortunately. Much less so for a discussion about guns of all things.

I would love to meet you guys sometime or other anyhow.



Make a DO!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:04:38 PM
A white nationalist appears to have lied to The Associated Press and other news organizations when he claimed that Florida school-shooting suspect Nikolas Cruz was a member of his obscure group. (https://apnews.com/8247010fc41141ce83a679182ab841ba?utm_campaign=SocialFlow&utm_source=Twitter&utm_medium=AP)

https://www.theonion.com/white-supremacist-tired-after-long-day-of-interviews-wi-1822818329
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:05:16 PM

If you make one I would stop by if it works.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 07:07:56 PM
How could he have hit the mail on the head if all he said was that "common sense" proposals "make sense"?
I took the liberty to assume one of them was the AR that preceded the common sense comment. I am also familiar with his views on gun control.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:09:57 PM
I took the liberty to assume one of them was the AR that preceded the common sense comment. I am also familiar with his views on gun control.
Okay. All he said about that was also nonsense that some guy who already owns an AR15 wouldn't feel his rights were violated if he couldn't buy another one or something like that. Good thing he is not President.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 07:19:35 PM
Okay. All he said about that was also nonsense that some guy who already owns an AR15 wouldn't feel his rights were violated if he couldn't buy another one or something like that. Good thing he is not President.
Close but he said buy not buy another AR. Might seem like a small distinction but it isn't. I am also assuming most serious gun collectors don't have an AR in their collection.
No one has come up with a legit reason to own an assault rifle like an AR. It can be used for many legit purposes but there are other non-assault rifles that serve those same purposes better.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:27:19 PM
Close but he said buy not buy another AR. Might seem like a small distinction but it isn't. I am also assuming most serious gun collectors don't have an AR in their collection.
No one has come up with a legit reason to own an assault rifle like an AR. It can be used for many legit purposes but there are other non-assault rifles that serve those same purposes better.
You are right. Not sure where I got that from.

They need AR15s to hunt hogs in TX. When going to the video linked they also had one of someone using a machine gun to hunt hogs and linked to here to explain why that is what they use and discuss AR15s as well.

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2014/02/foghorn/ethics-shooting-hogs-helicopters/

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 07:29:26 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 18, 2018, 07:36:41 PM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/
Oh no you are trampling my rights again!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 18, 2018, 11:40:11 PM
Pretty much. One thing you have to remember this isn't a political negotiation where you exchange one pork barrel project for another.

I have already stated mental health issues and school security should be part of this. The other side here won't even agree that things like 50-100 round HCM and bump stocks should be banned. You decide who wants an honest discussion!
Unfortunately many things shouldn't be political.
I am rarely able to find the time for these things unfortunately. Much less so for a discussion about guns of all things.

I would love to meet you guys sometime or other anyhow.

How can you have time to post all day but not have time for a lunch?? ( No offense..)
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 18, 2018, 11:42:45 PM
Unfortunately many things shouldn't be political.
How can you have time to post all day but not have time for a lunch?? ( No offense..)

It is a very good question. One can be done bein gavra ligavra during business hours since I am self employed. It also depends on the day.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 18, 2018, 11:55:33 PM
It is a very good question. One can be done bein gavra ligavra during business hours since I am self employed. It also depends on the day.
TBH I find that a good break is better then being distracted over a longer period...but I don't practice what I preach as much as I'd like

But I'll leave that discussion to someone looking to start a new thread....
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 18, 2018, 11:56:42 PM


TBH I find that a good break is better then being distracted over a longer period...but I don't practice what I preach as much as I'd like

But tapa won't let me start a new thread

FTFY
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: Yammer on February 18, 2018, 11:59:35 PM

FTFY
Nah...I don't like to start JS threads...consumes too much time
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 12:00:49 AM
TBH I find that a good break is better then being distracted over a longer period...but I don't practice what I preach as much as I'd like

But I'll leave that discussion to someone looking to start a new thread....
You are right but it depends if you are doing one bigger thing or a bunch of small items sometimes with gaps between them. Some days are one way some the other.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 10:01:27 AM
https://www.nationalreview.com/2018/02/gun-control-republicans-consider-grvo/
This actually sounds like a great idea.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 11:21:28 AM
This actually sounds like a great idea.
Oh no you are trampling my rights again!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 11:23:58 AM

There are times that these rights can be taken away - when necessary - with due process, for example those who are a danger to themselves. I think this fulfills all the necessary criteria.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 11:28:57 AM
There are times that these rights can be taken away with due process, for example those who are a danger to themselves. I think this fulfills all the necessary criteria.
I missed that in the 2nd amendment. Let me check with the NRA and see if they can find it.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 11:41:19 AM
I missed that in the 2nd amendment. Let me check with the NRA and see if they can find it.
CMIIW, but I think everyone agrees to that, at least on a basic level.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 11:46:08 AM
CMIIW, but I think everyone agrees to that, at least on a basic level.
But it doesn't fit the straw man he wants to create.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 12:05:10 PM
CMIIW, but I think everyone agrees to that, at least on a basic level.
I said a hundred times that SCOTUS has ruled you can put limitations on gun ownership. Your response is they are trampling our rights. Hopefully now you will stop that BS.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 04:16:51 PM
I said a hundred times that SCOTUS has ruled you can put limitations on gun ownership. Your response is they are trampling our rights. Hopefully now you will stop that BS.
There are rights, and there are protected rights. Protected rights can not be taken away except for extreme circumstances, like someone who is a danger to themselves or others. Rights should not be taken away without a really good reason that makes sense, even if you can't understand why someone would want to exercise that right
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 04:21:31 PM
There are rights, and there are protected rights. Protected rights can not be taken away except for extreme circumstances, like someone who is a danger to themselves or others. Rights should not be taken away without a really good reason that makes sense, even if you can't understand why someone would want to exercise that right
SCOTUS decides these things not you or me. If you don't like it then move!!! Stop with your BS!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 04:26:00 PM
SCOTUS decides these things not you or me. If you don't like it then move!!! Stop with your BS!!!
Just to confirm I understand correctly, you believe that EVERY SINGLE RIGHT that SCOTUS allows to be taken away, SHOULD be taken away?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 04:26:20 PM
Here is a proposal I think everyone can get behind!

Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 19, 2018, 04:28:34 PM
Here is a proposal I think everyone can get behind!

It's been suggested up thread, let's see how far this goes.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 04:31:30 PM
Just to confirm I understand correctly, you believe that EVERY SINGLE RIGHT that SCOTUS allows to be taken away, SHOULD be taken away?
I disagree with some of there decisions. Wants they decide that is it. Lobby whoever you want but stop the BS. If donít like our system then move!!!
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 04:37:31 PM
Just to confirm I understand correctly, you believe that EVERY SINGLE RIGHT that SCOTUS allows to be taken away, SHOULD be taken away to save many lives?
FTFY. Maybe. It is definitely a discussion to have.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 04:37:53 PM
I disagree with some of there decisions. Wants they decide that is it. Lobby whoever you want but stop the BS. If donít like our system then move!!!
I think I used the wrong word, so I am updating it here
There is liberty, and there are protected rights. Protected rights can not be taken away except for extreme circumstances, like someone who is a danger to themselves or others. Liberty should not be taken away without a really good reason that makes sense, even if you can't understand why someone would want to exercise that right
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 04:41:27 PM
It is definitely a discussion to have.
Agreed, we can definitely have a discussion about it, but saying any argument  that doesn't agree with that position is BS is not a discussion, it's the "my way or the highway" approach.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 06:09:10 PM
Agreed, we can definitely have a discussion about it, but saying any argument  that doesn't agree with that position is BS is not a discussion, it's the "my way or the highway" approach.
Do you live near an airport with all those planes flying over your head.  ::)
It is the SCOTUS way or the highway. What part don't you understand?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 06:10:28 PM
Do you live near an airport with all those planes flying over your head.  ::)
It is the SCOTUS way or the highway. What part don't you understand?
SCOTUS said there can be restrictions, SCOTUS did not say there must be restrictions.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 06:12:18 PM
SCOTUS said there can be restrictions, SCOTUS did not say there must be restrictions.
There goes another plane.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 06:13:59 PM
There goes another plane.
Are you going to bother explaining yourself?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 19, 2018, 06:29:31 PM
Are you going to bother explaining yourself?
Who said anything about this? Where do you get this from?
SCOTUS did not say there must be restrictions.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: avromie7 on February 19, 2018, 06:57:12 PM
Who said anything about this? Where do you get this from?
First you said this
I said a hundred times that SCOTUS has ruled you can put limitations on gun ownership. Your response is they are trampling our rights. Hopefully now you will stop that BS.
And I responded with this
There are rights, and there are protected rights. Protected rights can not be taken away except for extreme circumstances, like someone who is a danger to themselves or others. Rights should not be taken away without a really good reason that makes sense, even if you can't understand why someone would want to exercise that right
And even after I clarified with this, in case you didn't understand what I meant
I think I used the wrong word, so I am updating it here
You still responded with this
Do you live near an airport with all those planes flying over your head.  ::)
It is the SCOTUS way or the highway. What part don't you understand?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 19, 2018, 07:06:32 PM
Am I the only one getting bored with the same back and forth between the same people with absolutely nothing being added?
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 19, 2018, 07:15:05 PM
Am I the only one getting bored with the same back and forth between the same people with absolutely nothing being added?
Yes, you are probably the only one who feels that way, and still comes back
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: yitzgar on February 19, 2018, 07:16:41 PM
Yes, you are probably the only one who feels that way, and still comes back
Keep hoping someone will come up with a new idea
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 19, 2018, 07:20:12 PM
Keep hoping someone will come up with a new idea
I'm just getting back to this conversation after some real life.
I agree with President Trump. We need to ban mental illness.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 07:36:29 PM
I'm just getting back to this conversation after some real life.
I agree with President Trump. We need to ban mental illness.
Then we would have no government left.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 19, 2018, 07:39:29 PM
Then we would have no government left.
Aw Shucks. I guess we're left with banning guns then.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 08:09:06 PM
Aw Shucks. I guess we're left with banning guns then.
Great idea. Now that you got that off your chest and feel all self righteous saying we should do something that can't pass Congress or SCOTUS let's sit and wait for another shooting so you can say it again.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: mordechain on February 19, 2018, 08:11:41 PM
Unfortunately scheduled for 64 days on average for another blathering politician to say it's unimaginable. And nothing to be done. After all insanity is a sacred right.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 19, 2018, 08:27:44 PM
Unfortunately scheduled for 64 days on average for another blathering politician to say it's unimaginable. And nothing to be done. After all insanity is a sacred right.
Whether it would or should not be conditionally protected is not really relevant since the facts are that the right to bear arms is. Until you can get past that you can't really be taken seriously.
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 10:57:10 AM
I'm just getting back to this conversation after some real life.
I agree with President Trump. We need to ban mental illness.
Aw Shucks. I guess we're left with banning guns then.
Great idea. Now that you got that off your chest and feel all self righteous saying we should do something that can't pass Congress or SCOTUS let's sit and wait for another shooting so you can say it again.
https://reason.com/blog/2017/03/01/moral-outrage-is-self-serving
Title: Re: Another mass shooting!!!
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 12:50:29 PM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWfwCXwX4AAXZ8C.jpg)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 03:26:46 PM
There are violent video games all over the world. And a fraction of the mass murder.

This will go on. And on. And on. Unless there is a culture change.


As happened with racism and civil rights.
And abortion. And Gay rights.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 03:31:15 PM
There are violent video games all over the world. And a fraction of the mass murder.

This will go on. And on. And on. Unless there is a culture change.


As happened with racism and civil rights.
And abortion. And Gay rights.
In the long run (100+ years) the number of innocent people who die because we allow guns, is so small to the point of insignificance, compared to the number of innocent killed by their own government who would be able to save themselves if they had guns.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 03:43:09 PM
In the long run (100+ years) the number of innocent people who die because we allow guns, is so small to the point of insignificance, compared to the number of innocent killed by their own government who would be able to save themselves if they had guns.
https://www.theonion.com/nation-hears-voices-encouraging-it-to-buy-gun-1823084495
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 03:50:35 PM
And abortion.
What happened with abortion?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 03:51:12 PM
Regards from MD's gun ban.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 03:52:38 PM
There are violent video games all over the world. And a fraction of the mass murder.

This will go on. And on. And on. Unless there is a culture change.
Until that happens I guess you feel we are stuck.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 03:58:54 PM
Just confirmed at press conference Trump has no ideas of his own on what to do.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 20, 2018, 04:00:02 PM
Banned Bump stocks?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 04:04:06 PM
Banned Bump stocks?
Looking into it.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 20, 2018, 04:07:31 PM
Looking into it.
Side note: those are the coolest things ever.
(not a gun fanatic)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 04:09:54 PM
Side note: those are the coolest things ever.
(not a gun fanatic)
That is the whole problem. The same issue with AR's.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 20, 2018, 04:10:25 PM
That is the whole problem. The same issue with AR's.
The concept of them are so much cooler.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 04:15:21 PM
Yup. Passing limited sort of maybe bumpstock plus waiting period plus background check + fill in the blanks might add a few days in between mass shootings, but only a pretty drastic curtailment of 2nd amendment rights will really accomplish anything. And unfortunately, that will take a culture change.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 04:18:32 PM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 04:19:09 PM
Yup. Passing limited sort of maybe bumpstock plus waiting period plus background check + fill in the blanks might add a few days in between mass shootings, but only a pretty drastic curtailment of 2nd amendment rights will really accomplish anything. And unfortunately, that will take a culture change.
Yeah so lets do nothing. Whats a couple of extra shooting here and there?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 04:21:15 PM
Yup. Passing limited sort of maybe bumpstock plus waiting period plus background check + fill in the blanks might add a few days in between mass shootings, but only a pretty drastic curtailment of 2nd amendment rights will really accomplish anything. And unfortunately, that will take a culture change.
What about allowing good guns to fight back against bad guns? It's not by chance that almost all mass shootings happen in "Gun Free Zones".

ETA: It's a hell of a lot easier to implement, and it also protects against illegal guns.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 04:23:08 PM
Finally!!! Who wants to bet the gun nuts will be yelling their rights are being taken away.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 04:24:59 PM
Finally!!! Who wants to bet the gun nuts will be yelling their rights are being taken away.
Who wants to bet fun control freaks will be yelling it's not nearly enough
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 04:28:43 PM
Who wants to bet fun control freaks will be yelling it's not nearly enough
The difference is the sane individuals understand it is not enough.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 04:30:58 PM
The difference is the sane individuals understand it is not enough.
It also proves that the left doesn't want to stop where they say they do, if you give them a finger, they'll want a hand. It wo nt stop at anything less than a full repeal of 2A
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 04:32:49 PM
It also proves that the left doesn't want to stop where they say they do, if you give them a finger, they'll want a hand. It wo nt stop at anything less than a full repeal of 2A
We are not talking about the nutcases at both ends. We are talking about the majority of sane people in the middle.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 04:37:46 PM
We are not talking about the nutcases at both ends. We are talking about the majority of sane people in the middle.
What do you feel is the limit on how much gun control there should be? I know you want to ban bump stocks, and and HCM. What other legislation would you like to see?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 04:50:47 PM
What do you feel is the limit on how much gun control there should be? I know you want to ban bump stocks, and and HCM. What other legislation would you like to see?
Assault rifles is number one on the list. Then we have to limit access to individuals with problems.

Do you hear anyone screaming that felons should be able to own guns? Don't they have rights. 2A doesn't preclude them from owning guns. I am just pointing out you can have laws that certain individuals can't own guns.

Then what about legit gun owners that don't properly secure there guns that end up in the hands of criminals?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 05:18:45 PM
Assault rifles is number one on the list. Then we have to limit access to individuals with problems.

Do you hear anyone screaming that felons should be able to own guns? Don't they have rights. 2A doesn't preclude them from owning guns. I am just pointing out you can have laws that certain individuals can't own guns.

Then what about legit gun owners that don't properly secure there guns that end up in the hands of criminals?
What do you feel is the limit on how much gun control there should be? I know you want to ban bump stocks, and and HCM. What other legislation would you like to see?
Take Australia's gun laws. Copy and paste
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 05:26:35 PM
Assault rifles is number one on the list. Then we have to limit access to individuals with problems.

Do you hear anyone screaming that felons should be able to own guns? Don't they have rights. 2A doesn't preclude them from owning guns. I am just pointing out you can have laws that certain individuals can't own guns.

Then what about legit gun owners that don't properly secure there guns that end up in the hands of criminals?
Assuming we had all these laws in place, how do you think it would have effected this mass shooting attack?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 05:49:49 PM
Assuming we had all these laws in place, how do you think it would have effected this mass shooting attack?
He would not have an AR.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 05:55:03 PM
He would not have an AR.
The AR is not the issue, it's the dead and injured that's the issue. If he didn't have an AR and instead had a semi-automatic handgun, how many people who were killed, would still be alive?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 05:59:27 PM
The AR is not the issue, it's the dead and injured that's the issue. If he didn't have an AR and instead had a semi-automatic handgun, how many people who were killed, would still be alive?
Didnt he have a handgun at home? Why did he choose the AR. What about LAS?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 06:01:43 PM
Didnt he have a handgun at home? Why did he choose the AR.
Can you answer the question instead of deflecting? It doesn't need to be a specific number, it can be a realistic range.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 20, 2018, 07:16:55 PM
There are violent video games all over the world. And a fraction of the mass murder.

This will go on. And on. And on. Unless there is a culture change.


As happened with racism and civil rights.
And abortion. And Gay rights.
Assuming the implied idea is true, that violent video games are the cause) even if there are violent video games everywhere, the reason mass shootings take place less in other places, could be because of other reasons, including lack of ability to procure a weapon. However that doesn't mean the weapon is now the cause. Wouldn't it be better to address the root of the problem, rather than just trying to take away the opportunity to perform the shooting?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 07:41:11 PM
Last I checked, freedom of expression is a core freedom, characteristic of every democracy. How you would police every game, video, movie etc. and decide what could and can't be published is a question best answered by totalitarian regimes.
 The "right" to bear arms is a wrinkle unique to America.

The USA used to have other constitutionally enshrined "rights" as well, such as the right to own a human being. These were eliminated as part of a culture change. Other "rights" never before imagined have been read into the Constitution by the courts.

Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.
 
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 20, 2018, 07:45:47 PM
Last I checked, freedom of expression is a core freedom, characteristic of every democracy. How you would police every game, video, movie etc. and decide what could and can't be published is a question best answered by totalitarian regimes.
 The "right" to bear arms is a wrinkle unique to America.

The USA used to have other constitutionally enshrined "rights" as well, such as the right to own a human being. These were eliminated as part of a culture change. Other "rights" never before imagined have been read into the Constitution by the courts.

Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.
Not sure if this was supposed to answer my point. Not disagreeing that it's hard to police video games, but it would be very difficult to confiscate all guns as well. Obviously, the Constitution could be changed, but I don't think that's realistic, or that most normal ppl want that. Who cares what other countries feel should be a protected right?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 07:48:35 PM


Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.

I'm not convinced you're right, there's a reason the NRA is so powerful (no it's not because they pay off politicians, in the last 18 years they spent a fraction of what the labor unions spend in 1 year), it's because there are 10s of millions of people in this who hold the same positions as the NRA.

I'm hoping that before that happens, people will realize that the only way to stop bad guns is with good guns, instead of leaving law abiding citizens unarmed against criminals who don't care what the law says.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 07:52:32 PM
Last I checked, freedom of expression is a core freedom, characteristic of every democracy. How you would police every game, video, movie etc. and decide what could and can't be published is a question best answered by totalitarian regimes.
 The "right" to bear arms is a wrinkle unique to America.

The USA used to have other constitutionally enshrined "rights" as well, such as the right to own a human being. These were eliminated as part of a culture change. Other "rights" never before imagined have been read into the Constitution by the courts.

Slowly, (glacially slowly) the mood in the country is changing.

It will take time, but gun control will  eventually be like Gay marriage.
Where was there a right to own slaves enshrined in the constitution?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 07:56:45 PM
Where was there a right to own slaves enshrined in the constitution?
5th amendment
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 20, 2018, 08:00:13 PM
5th amendment
?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 08:01:12 PM
5th amendment
It won't incriminate you.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 08:03:01 PM
Ok...
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Slaves were considered property.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 20, 2018, 08:04:10 PM
Ok...
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Slaves were considered property.
Seriously?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 08:04:29 PM
Yup
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 08:13:05 PM
Ok...
"No person shall ... be deprived of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law"
Slaves were considered property.
COME ON
That is not a protected right. In fact states had abolished slavery despite that amendment prior to the ratification of the 13th amendment with some states having abolished it prior to ratification of the Bill of Rights.

This is total ignorance.

Freedom of speech which would protect the regulation of games promoting violence is not part of European freedom of speech. The European Convention on Human Rights leaves this major caveat.

"The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 20, 2018, 08:19:04 PM
Yup
Nope.

It doesn't speak to slavery, let alone enshrine it.

Likely, you're dimly remembering (and butchering) the Enumeration Clause and the Fugitive Clause.

They didn't mention slavery specifically (although, of course that was the explicit intent) and they certainly didn't enshrine it.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 08:23:45 PM
See Dred Scott.  Or Ableman vs. Booth upholding the Fugitive Slave Act
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 20, 2018, 08:26:37 PM
I am rarely able to find the time for these things unfortunately. Much less so for a discussion about guns of all things.

I would love to meet you guys sometime or other anyhow.
A pity. Much easier to discuss then to type, especially when dealing with multiple posts and posters.

We'll just have to go slow and piecemeal.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 20, 2018, 09:03:41 PM
See Dred Scott.  Or Ableman vs. Booth upholding the Fugitive Slave Act
Instead of pointing to the Constitution, you point to horrible SCOTUS decisions, that were made in the leadup to the Civil War (DS 1857, A v B 1858, CW 1861) in the context of trying to hold the country together.

If anything, those decisions would have, perhaps, enshrined slavery. Except, instead, they led to a fight to the death over it.

Here's the relevant bits of Dred Scott:

"5. When the Constitution was adopted, they were not regarded in any of the States as members of the community which constituted the State, and were not numbered among its "people or citizens." Consequently, the special rights and immunities guarantied to citizens do not apply to them. And not being "citizens" within the meaning of the Constitution, they are not entitled to sue in that character in a court of the United States, and the Circuit Court has not jurisdiction in such a suit.

6. The only two clauses in the Constitution which point to this race treat them as persons whom it was morally lawfully to deal in as articles of property and to hold as slaves."

"The only two clauses in the Constitution which point to this race" - slaves were never explicitly mentioned, and certainly not enshrined.

Ableman vs Booth

"5. The act of Congress of September 18, 1850, usually called the fugitive slave law, is constitutional in all its provisions."

It's a bald statement that doesn't quote the Constitution to prove it's point, as it can't. This supposed right, that you called "enshrined", was alluded to, due to the Great Compromise.

If you're interested in Dred Scott you can listen to this episode: https://www.wnycstudios.org/story/american-pendulum-ii-dred-scott
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 20, 2018, 09:22:02 PM
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.



Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 20, 2018, 09:28:33 PM
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.
Let's go even slower.

1. The right to property is still enshrined in the Constitution.

2. The words that actually enshrine them are still there.

3. I'm very late for night seder. Bl'n, I'll continue later tonight.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 09:36:12 PM
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.
Both Vermont and Massachusetts had abolished slavery by the time the Bill of rights was ratified. Over the next 25 years a bunch of other states did as well. How could they have been unconstitutional despite whatever crooked training you are using to show that. Either way this is nothing more than a distraction and shows more about your methods of reasoning than anything else.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 09:36:51 PM
Bump

Freedom of speech which would protect the regulation of games promoting violence is not part of European freedom of speech. The European Convention on Human Rights leaves this major caveat.

"The exercise of these freedoms, since it carries with it duties and responsibilities, may be subject to such formalities, conditions, restrictions or penalties as are prescribed by law and are necessary in a democratic society, in the interests of national security, territorial integrity or public safety, for the prevention of disorder or crime, for the protection of health or morals, for the protection of the reputation or the rights of others, for preventing the disclosure of information received in confidence, or for maintaining the authority and impartiality of the judiciary."

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 10:04:08 PM
Can you answer the question instead of deflecting? It doesn't need to be a specific number, it can be a realistic range.
Your question shows your extreme lack on knowledge of guns. If he use a .22 SA handgun I would say one or two as a high number.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 10:13:04 PM
Your question shows your extreme lack on knowledge of guns. If he use a .22 SA handgun I would say one or two as a high number.
Meaning 15-16 would still be dead?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 10:18:04 PM
Meaning 15-16 would still be dead?
My bad read it wrong. One or two would have died.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 10:23:07 PM
My bad read it wrong. One or two would have died.
Ok so since you claim to be the expert, what would be the deadliest SA handgun, and what would the number be?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 20, 2018, 10:23:24 PM
For starters it is much more likely that someone would have been able to jump him successfully
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 10:24:54 PM
Ok so since you claim to be the expert, what would be the deadliest SA handgun, and what would the number be?
LOL
I answer the question. Now the answer doesnít fit your point so now you want to change the question.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 10:26:41 PM
LOL
I answer the question. Now the answer doesnít fit your point so now you want to change the question.
You twisted it to give the answer you wanted, which still doesn't disprove my point
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 10:30:46 PM
You twisted it to give the answer you wanted, which still doesn't disprove my point
I didnít twist anything. I picked an extremely popular handgun. I own a few of them. The Ruger is a classic.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 10:35:50 PM
I didnít twist anything. I picked an extremely popular handgun. I own a few of them. The Ruger is a classic.
Are you going to answer the updated version of my question, or just deflect it because it doesn't fit your narrative?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 10:37:57 PM
Are you going to answer the updated version of my question, or just deflect it because it doesn't fit your narrative?
I answered your question and your point was shot down. You donít get a second bite at the apple. Educate yourself first.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 20, 2018, 10:41:51 PM
I answered your question and your point was shot down. You donít get a second bite at the apple. Educate yourself first.
The fact that you refuse to answer proves my point, that an assault rifle ban would do little to save lives, because a mass shooter can always use a powerful handgun, and kill nearly the same amount of people.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 10:47:45 PM
The fact that you refuse to answer proves my point, that an assault rifle ban would do little to save lives, because a mass shooter can always use a powerful handgun, and kill nearly the same amount of people.
You are 100% wrong. Educate yourself before asking stupid questions.
Anyone can see for themselves I answered your question and proved your assumption wrong.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 20, 2018, 10:50:58 PM
I don't know much about guns, but doesn't it make sense that something that can fire off more bullets quicker will be more deadly?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 20, 2018, 10:53:57 PM
I don't know much about guns, but doesn't it make sense that something that can fire off more bullets quicker will be more deadly?

I also don't know much about guns, but I've leaned from this thread that no, despite the preponderance of mass shootings being done with AR-15s and the like, there was one deadly shooting with a handgun, so they're all equal.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 20, 2018, 11:10:59 PM
I also don't know much about guns, but I've leaned from this thread that no, despite the preponderance of mass shootings being done with AR-15s and the like, there was one deadly shooting with a handgun, so they're all equal.
Sounds like a good lomdus
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 20, 2018, 11:31:22 PM
I also don't know much about guns, but I've leaned from this thread that no, despite the preponderance of mass shootings being done with AR-15s and the like, there was one deadly shooting with a handgun, so they're all equal.
You canít compare the two. His victims were shot at least three times. The second attack 28 of the 30 were shot in the head.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 12:08:55 AM
Ok now...
Let's go slowly.

1.The right to property is certainly enshrined in the Constitution.
2. At the time of it's writing, this included land, horses, chulent beans, oil lamps and slaves.
3. Over time, culture changed, and negros came to be considered persons, particularly in the North.

This process was reflected throughout court decisions.
Let's go even slower.

1. The right to property is still enshrined in the Constitution.

2. The words that actually enshrine them are still there.

3. I'm very late for night seder. Bl'n, I'll continue later tonight.
4. Slavery was specifically not enshrined as that would have been a deal killer; the Union would never have formed, and the Republic would have been a stillbirth.

5. As others have pointed out to you, there were states that joined the Union that had either already outlawed slavery (Vermont), or were in the process of outlawing slavery (basically all of the Northern states by 1804).

6. Imagine if they had tried joining the Union after outlawing an actual enshrined Constitutional right, like say, you know... umm... let me think... oh, property!

7. The matter was left to the States (see the Missouri Compromise https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missouri_Compromise).

8. The dreadful DS and A v B decisions might have enshrined it defacto.

9. This led, however, to a Civil War over the issue.

10. Which led to the Emancipation, which freed slaves in rebellious states (leaving the ones in Missouri, Kentucky, Maryland, Delaware still enslaved) and finally the Thirteenth Amendment which outlawed slavery throughout the Republic.

11. Let's contrast this with guns, which are enshrined in the Constitution.

12. Nothing short of an Amendment can get rid of this specifically enumerated, incorporated (against the states), enshrined right.

13. Obviously, like all other Constitutional rights, they can be restricted. They cannot be "eliminated as part of a culture change" unless we start ignoring Constitutional rights and the Constitutional process.

14. If that happens, what will protect the other rights, like say, 1A, from being eliminated as well? "You can't say things that hurt other people and cause them emotional distress."

Please let me know if this was slow enough.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 12:25:25 AM
I don't know much about guns, but doesn't it make sense that something that can fire off more bullets quicker will be more deadly?
That actually does make sense.

The issue isn't the logic, it's the reality.

In reality, semiautomatic handguns and semiautomatic rifles fire one bullet for each pull of the trigger.

Barring slight differences of trigger pull, different mechanisms, etc. they all shoot at roughly the same speeds. (The main limiting factor being how fast the person pulls the trigger.)

So in terms of practical fire rate they're the same deadly.

Edit: I was answering you in the form of arguendo, as your question is logical. I'm showing, that even assuming your logical assumptions, once you know the realities you wouldn't consider one as deadlier due to practical fire rate.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 12:45:35 AM

I also don't know much about guns, but I've leaned from this thread that no, despite the preponderance of mass shootings being done with AR-15s and the like, there was one deadly shooting with a handgun, so they're all equal.

Actually, @Yehuda57, as I've stated above, the "preponderance of mass shootings" are done with handguns.

...
AR's are used in crime in miniscule proportion to handguns.

Vast majority of mass shootings in US are done with handguns.

Vast majority of mass casualty shootings (four or more deaths) in US are with handguns.

The deadliest school shooting in the US was done with handguns. (It was also the deadliest school shooting in the world not committed by terrorists.)
...
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 12:55:18 AM
Actually, @Yehuda57, as I've stated above, the "preponderance of mass shootings" are done with handguns.
You say a lot of things but never back it up.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 21, 2018, 12:59:26 AM
https://youtu.be/xPBa3IDs3s0
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 01:16:41 AM
You say a lot of things but never back it up.

As explained, multiple times I might add (see below), I don't accept double standards.

...
If common sense is the standard for your preferred policy choices, I won't accept a double standard for my policy choices.


A fair question. It depends who's asking. When I think the question is sincere by someone who's trying to understand, I'm willing to assist (e.g. reference my reply to @gingyguy).

However, if the people asking play a double standard where their claims are "logical", "common sense", etc. and I need to bring proof, no thanks.
...

@Yehuda57 makes a claim that "...the preponderance of mass shootings being done with AR-15s and the like, there was one deadly shooting with a handgun...".

Did he provide any proof?

Then why do I need to provide proof to my claim?

Let him post proof for his claim and I'll gladly post the proof for mine.

I don't accept double standards.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 01:27:49 AM
I don't accept double standards.
I provided numerous links to murders with guns. You provided no links that show they saved more lives than murders. It is basic knowledge of guns which you have not demonstrated.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 01:32:03 AM
The stats show the higher number of deaths the more likely it will not be a handgun.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 01:37:35 AM
I provided numerous links to murders with guns. You provided no links that show they saved more lives than murders. It is basic knowledge of guns which have not demonstrated.
It's late at night and I need to get to bed.

G-d willing, I'll try to post again in the next couple of days, at which time I'll carefully and slowly show how your links don't show what you claim, nor were they responsive to my specific claim.

Hang on, I'm getting to you.

I will also, bl'n, repost your claims about AR's and my previous posted rebuttal. Just so we can see about that "basic knowledge" a second time.

Now please don't go and ruin this by posting even more until I get back, or else the backlog will grow out of control.

Have a great night.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 01:40:39 AM
Just when you look at mass shootings see how many are done in private homes over family issues. I figure you need some help. 😂
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 21, 2018, 07:16:04 AM
Actually, @Yehuda57, as I've stated above, the "preponderance of mass shootings" are done with handguns.
How are you defining "mass shooting"? In free context of this conversation, it would be school shootings like parkland, Sandy Hook, etc, and other shootings like Las Vegas, Charleston, Orlando, etc.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 21, 2018, 07:44:31 AM
That actually does make sense.

The issue isn't the logic, it's the reality.

In reality, semiautomatic handguns and semiautomatic rifles fire one bullet for each pull of the trigger.

Barring slight differences of trigger pull, different mechanisms, etc. they all shoot at roughly the same speeds. (The main limiting factor being how fast the person pulls the trigger.)

So in terms of practical fire rate they're the same deadly.

Edit: I was answering you in the form of arguendo, as your question is logical. I'm showing, that even assuming your logical assumptions, once you know the realities you wouldn't consider one as deadlier due to practical fire rate.
@chaimmoskowitz do you agree with this? If so why would you say assault rifles should be banned any more than handguns?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 09:10:09 AM
@ChaimMoskowitz do you agree with this? If so why would you say assault rifles should be banned any more than handguns?
Do I agree every time you pull the trigger a round is fired, yes. What is your point?

We have many gun problems in this country. You can't lump them all together.   
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 09:35:17 AM
How are you defining "mass shooting"? In free context of this conversation, it would be school shootings like parkland, Sandy Hook, etc, and other shootings like Las Vegas, Charleston, Orlando, etc.
Everyone is going to use numbers that favor their points they are trying to make.

Here is a couple of examples.
Family dispute an a deranged individual kills four family members in his home. Mass shooting?
Another deranged individual goes to a school and shoots 25 individuals and two die. Mass shooting?
In the context of this thread I started:
1 - No
2 - Yes
Now if you use 4 or more killed as a mass shooting it would be the opposite:
1 - Yes
2 - No
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 09:40:43 AM
Do I agree every time you pull the trigger a round is fired, yes. What is your point?

We have many gun problems in this country. You can't lump them all together.
Again, you're deflecting and ignoring the question at hand.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 09:42:44 AM
Again, you're deflecting and ignoring the question at hand.
Your question was answered and it disproved your point. Now you need to troll other posts.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 09:49:01 AM
Your question was answered and it disproved your point. Now you need to troll other posts.
You're saying that if we banned "assault rifles", all future mass shootings would be committed with .22s?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 09:56:25 AM
You're saying that if we banned "assault rifles", all future mass shootings would be committed with .22s?
No. Where did you get that from?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 10:11:55 AM
As soon as I asked this question, you started deflecting.
Assuming we had all these laws in place, how do you think it would have effected this mass shooting attack?
Then you found the most extreme possible response that technically answered the question

If he use a .22 SA handgun I would say one or two as a high number.
Then after I clarified, you refused to answer claiming that you already answered the question, and your only response to this
The fact that you refuse to answer proves my point, that an assault rifle ban would do little to save lives, because a mass shooter can always use a powerful handgun, and kill nearly the same amount of people.
Was this
You are 100% wrong.
The most logical conclusion is you mean this

You're saying that if we banned "assault rifles", all future mass shootings would be committed with .22s?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 10:20:17 AM
You are a totally dishonest person. Here is the question you asked and I answered it. Then you go off on a tangent because my answer disproved your point. If you are going to try and trap someone you might want to educate yourself on the subject first. Do you see me trying to trap @aygart about Judaism. I just accept the fact he knows what he is talking about. You should do the same.
The AR is not the issue, it's the dead and injured that's the issue. If he didn't have an AR and instead had a semi-automatic handgun, how many people who were killed, would still be alive?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 21, 2018, 10:20:27 AM
Do I agree every time you pull the trigger a round is fired, yes. What is your point?

We have many gun problems in this country. You can't lump them all together.
I'm trying to understand why assault rifles are more dangerous than handguns. Maybe you can explain it. I understand what the problem is with bump stocks, but what's the issue here?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: gingyguy on February 21, 2018, 10:23:39 AM
https://www.vosizneias.com/291921/2018/02/20/new-york-video-of-gun-owners-assault-on-an-ar-15-goes-viral-after-florida-mass-shooting/
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 10:29:45 AM
When trying to fix the issue at hand, the best way to evaluate each solution is:

1) If we look back at history, what effect would said change/law have had in each attack, would it have stopped it from happening? Would it have stopped it sooner, or made it less deadly and how much sooner or less deadly.
2) If this change/law were to go into effect, what would the attacker have done different? Would he have found a different option that would be equally as deadly, nearly as deadly, barely deadly, or even more deadly?
3) What are the negative effects of this change/law? Will it leave people more vulnerable to other types of attacks? Will it make other crimes or attacks easier? Are we taking away peoples rights or liberty?
4) We can now evaluate if it solves anything, and if the gains are worth the losses.


Is there anything I'm missing? Does anyone disagree?

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 10:31:25 AM
You are a totally dishonest person. Here is the question you asked and I answered it. Then you go off on a tangent because my answer disproved your point. If you are going to try and trap someone you might want to educate yourself on the subject first. Do you see me trying to trap @aygart about Judaism. I just accept the fact he knows what he is talking about. You should do the same.
Why did you assume that I meant a .22? Any logical person would realize I am referring to the most powerful weapon he would have available if we banned "assault rifles".
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 12:36:08 PM
I'm trying to understand why assault rifles are more dangerous than handguns. Maybe you can explain it. I understand what the problem is with bump stocks, but what's the issue here?
Assault rifles have massive killing power. Most have 20-30 round magazines as standard. Way more accurate than handguns.
Every situation is different. The problem is these weapons have become so popular. Monkey see monkey do.
We are lucky these deranged individuals are not knowledgeable about guns or more lives would be lost.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 12:43:44 PM
Why did you assume that I meant a .22? Any logical person would realize I am referring to the most powerful weapon he would have available if we banned "assault rifles".
I didn't assume anything. I answered your question. STOP WITH THE CRYING!!!

Why would a logical person compare the most powerful handgun to one of the least powerful assault rifles? I compared a .22 to a .223 with is slightly bigger in diameter. I happen to own a .44 Magnum which is one of the most powerful handguns made. You want me to use that as a comparison?  ::)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 01:43:52 PM
I didn't assume anything. I answered your question. STOP WITH THE CRYING!!!

Why would a logical person compare the most powerful handgun to one of the least powerful assault rifles? I compared a .22 to a .223 with is slightly bigger in diameter. I happen to own a .44 Magnum which is one of the most powerful handguns made. You want me to use that as a comparison?  ::)
Please stop the ad hominem attacks, I guess because I didn't ask the right question the first time, you must be right.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 02:11:53 PM
Please stop the ad hominem attacks, I guess because I didn't ask the right question the first time, you must be right.
It is not about the right question. It is the question itself is not realistic. You now want me to compare the most powerful handgun to one of the least powerful assault rifle? Are you aware the AR .223 is one of the least powerful assault rifles?

Now back to the real world. FL won't even take up a debate on banning assault weapons. We are not talking about a vote, just a debate on the issue. Is that an honest discussion?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 02:18:35 PM
Now back to the real world. FL won't even take up a debate on banning assault weapons. We are not talking about a vote, just a debate on the issue. Is that an honest discussion?
You take up a debate that is headed in the right direction, if they feel banning assault weapons is barking up the wrong tree, why would they put it out for debate on the floor?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 02:21:33 PM
It is not about the right question. It is the question itself is not realistic. You now want me to compare the most powerful handgun to one of the least powerful assault rifle? Are you aware the AR .223 is one of the least powerful assault rifles?

Now back to the real world. FL won't even take up a debate on banning assault weapons. We are not talking about a vote, just a debate on the issue. Is that an honest discussion?
The debate that matters is not the one on the floor of a legislator. That is simply a procedural matter.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 02:25:40 PM
You take up a debate that is headed in the right direction, if they feel banning assault weapons is barking up the wrong tree, why would they put it out for debate on the floor?
To have an honest discussion. This is the same idiots that just said porn is health risk but trying to stop the killing of young kids isn't worth a debate?
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/msn/florida-house-declares-porn-a-public-health-risk-shortly-after-denying-assault-rifle-ban/ar-BBJpOct

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 02:28:47 PM
The debate that matters is not the one on the floor of a legislator. That is simply a procedural matter.
You have to start somewhere. It shows that are not serious in finding solutions if it evolves guns.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 02:39:13 PM
You have to start somewhere. It shows that are not serious in finding solutions if it evolves guns.
I disagree. The procedural stuff in the legislature is all meaningless for anything other that legislative strategy. It is like saying that to end a filibuster is to not want discussion on it since they ended debate. These are all covered by the Barone Rule.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 02:45:09 PM
I disagree. The procedural stuff in the legislature is all meaningless for anything other that legislative strategy. It is like saying that to end a filibuster is to not want discussion on it since they ended debate. These are all covered by the Barone Rule.
If they won't even have a debate you can be sure they will never allow a vote.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 21, 2018, 02:51:11 PM
If they won't even have a debate you can be sure they will never allow a vote.
True, but having a debate in the house won't lead to having a vote if there is no political will. It's more of a symptom of public opinion than a cause
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: gingyguy on February 21, 2018, 03:02:09 PM
http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory/authorities-california-school-shooting-plot-thwarted-53235363
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 03:05:11 PM
California passed a law in October ensuring teachers won't be able to fight back against mass shooters.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 03:49:37 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/fd9a9de894c17714eca899dac1638897.png)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 21, 2018, 03:50:58 PM
(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/fd9a9de894c17714eca899dac1638897.png)
Oh the irony
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 04:04:51 PM
Oh the irony
Scott new they were coming to meet with him. Why didn't he tell the kids?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 21, 2018, 04:06:07 PM
Scott new they were coming to meet with him. Why didn't he tell the kids?
May be a valid complaint. Still the shame on you, is ironic, quite judgmental.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 04:13:30 PM
May be a valid complaint. Still the shame on you, is ironic, quite judgmental.
They were told he was to busy. Going to a funeral to get votes is not a valid excuse to being to busy. What did he do after the last mass shooting in FL?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 21, 2018, 04:15:05 PM
They were told he was to busy. Going to a funeral to get votes is not a valid excuse to being to busy. What did he do after the last mass shooting in FL?
Because you decided he did the right thing, just to get votes, it's wrong now?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 04:17:29 PM
Because you decided he did the right thing, just to get votes, it's wrong now?
Going to a funeral to gets votes is the right thing to do? I can see if you said it wasn't political we could agree to disagree. You have a lot to learn if you think going to a funeral for political reasons is OK.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 04:18:09 PM
They were told he was to busy. Going to a funeral to get votes is not a valid excuse to being to busy. What did he do after the last mass shooting in FL?
So he's terrible for not speaking to them, and his going to the funeral is worthless? What if it was the other way around, if he didn't go to the funeral because he was speaking to students? You'd have same complaint against him - speaking to the kids to get votes. Damned whichever way he goes.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 04:22:21 PM
So he's terrible for not speaking to them, and his going to the funeral is worthless? What if it was the other way around, if he didn't go to the funeral because he was speaking to students? You'd have same complaint against him - speaking to the kids to get votes. Damned whichever way he goes.
All he had to do was tell the kids. I am sure they could have done their bus tour another day when he was there.
Instead of posting nonsense try reading up a little on different assault rifles so you can ask educated questions instead of just repeating talking points.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 04:24:29 PM
Why would he want to be yelled at by a bunch of kids calling for things based on nothing but emotion. It is not like they made an appointment.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 04:33:39 PM
Why would he want to be yelled at by a bunch of kids calling for things based on nothing but emotion. It is not like they made an appointment.
Did you watch these kids speeches today? Most of what they said was well thought out.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 04:39:54 PM
All he had to do was tell the kids. I am sure they could have done their bus tour another day when he was there.
Instead of posting nonsense try reading up a little on different assault rifles so you can ask educated questions instead of just repeating talking points.
My reading brought me to the conclusion that an AR15 is known as the ideal weapon for home defense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 04:50:56 PM
My reading brought me to the conclusion that an AR15 is known as the ideal weapon for home defense.
WOW you are delusional.
Turn the news on and listen to these kids talking to the president. You will learn something. If give him all the credit for not running away like Gov Scott!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 04:51:42 PM
WOW you are delusional.
Turn the news on and listen to these kids talking to the president. You will learn something. If give him all the credit for not running away like Gov Scott!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 04:52:39 PM
Did you watch these kids speeches today? Most of what they said was well thought out.
In which case they were readiong political speeches written for them with an agenda to embarrass Scott. All the more reason to not be there.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:01:42 PM
In which case they were readiong political speeches written for them with an agenda to embarrass Scott. All the more reason to not be there.
You are 100% wrong.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 05:02:24 PM
I go for a late lunch at Bagel Nosh, glance at at DDF, and what do I see?, he's posting again.

This time claiming that @avromie7 didn't ask an educated question.

...
Instead of posting nonsense try reading up a little on different assault rifles so you can ask educated questions instead of just repeating talking points.

What was the uneducated question?

He tries to frame the actual asked question, how should we say this?, less than accurately.

It is not about the right question. It is the question itself is not realistic. You now want me to compare the most powerful handgun to one of the least powerful assault rifle? Are you aware the AR .223 is one of the least powerful assault rifles?

....

And this gem of a reframe:

I didn't assume anything. I answered your question. STOP WITH THE CRYING!!!

Why would a logical person compare the most powerful handgun to one of the least powerful assault rifles? I compared a .22 to a .223 with is slightly bigger in diameter. I happen to own a .44 Magnum which is one of the most powerful handguns made. You want me to use that as a comparison?  ::)

Perhaps because it's not only the diameter, but size (length), weight, and fps that determine lethality of bullets?

So if, as you claim,

Assault rifles have massive killing power.
 ...

we should compare the commonly available, easily obtainable handguns with massive killing power to these rifles, right? Like you were originally asked?

@avromie7 asked you if an SA handgun was substituted for an SA rifle would it have made a difference in the amount of people killed.

The AR is not the issue, it's the dead and injured that's the issue. If he didn't have an AR and instead had a semi-automatic handgun, how many people who were killed, would still be alive?

You, knowing the gig is almost up, start to evade and deflect.

Didnt he have a handgun at home? Why did he choose the AR. What about LAS?

@avromie7 calls you on it.

Can you answer the question instead of deflecting? It doesn't need to be a specific number, it can be a realistic range.

So, as is your wont, you insult and try to move the goalposts by answering with an underpowered handgun.

Your question shows your extreme lack on knowledge of guns. If he use a .22 SA handgun I would say one or two as a high number.

@avromie7 tries to bring the discussion back to all commonly available, far deadlier, SA handguns.

Ok so since you claim to be the expert, what would be the deadliest SA handgun, and what would the number be?

You now claim to have answered the question.

LOL
I answer the question. Now the answer doesnít fit your point so now you want to change the question.

(Actually you didn't, as the question wasn't if it was replaced with a .22 SA, but rather an SA. All commonly available SA's.

You're desperately attempting to reframe the question, because you're afraid of the answer.)

@avromie7 calls out this latest attempt at evasion.

You twisted it to give the answer you wanted, which still doesn't disprove my point

You try to obfuscate the easy availability of deadlier SA handguns.

I didnít twist anything. I picked an extremely popular handgun. I own a few of them. The Ruger is a classic.

@avromie7 presses yet again.

Are you going to answer the updated version of my question, or just deflect it because it doesn't fit your narrative?

Let me answer for you, as you're clearly frightened of this question which cuts to the heart of your narrative.

There would be no discernable difference, as there are many SA handgun calibers that are just as lethal as common AR calibers at the typical distances of these mass shootings.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:09:44 PM
I go for a late lunch at Bagel Nosh, glance at at DDF, and what do I see?, he's posting again.

This time claiming that @avromie7 didn't ask an educated question.

What was the uneducated question?

He tries to frame the actual asked question, how should we say this?, less than accurately.

And this gem of a reframe:

Perhaps because it's not only the diameter, but size (length), weight, and fps that determine lethality of bullets?

So if, as you claim,

we should compare the commonly available, easily obtainable handguns with massive killing power to these rifles, right? Like you were originally asked?

@avromie7 asked you if an SA handgun was substituted for an SA rifle would it have made a difference in the amount of people killed.

You, knowing the gig is almost up, start to evade and deflect.

@avromie7 calls you on it.

So, as is your wont, you insult and try to move the goalposts by answering with an underpowered handgun.

@avromie7 tries to bring the discussion back to all commonly available, far deadlier, SA handguns.

You now claim to have answered the question.

(Actually you didn't, as the question wasn't if it was replaced with a .22 SA, but rather an SA. All commonly available SA's.

You're desperately attempting to reframe the question, because you're afraid of the answer.)

@avromie7 calls out this latest attempt at evasion.

You try to obfuscate the easy availability of deadlier SA handguns.

@avromie7 presses yet again.

Let me answer for you, as you're clearly frightened of this question which cuts to the heart of your narrative.

There would be no discernable difference, as there are many SA handgun calibers that are just as lethal as common AR calibers at the typical distances of these mass shootings.
All this from someone who has yet showed any facts how more lives have been saved by guns than murderers committed by them. You take the day off and still nothing? ROFLMAO!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:14:27 PM
All this from someone who has yet showed any facts how more lives have been saved by guns than murderers committed by them. You take the day off and still nothing? ROFLMAO!!!
Red herring alert!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 05:18:01 PM
All this from someone who has yet showed any facts how more lives have been saved by guns than murderers committed by them. You take the day off and still nothing? ROFLMAO!!!
If you would stop posting deflections, etc. I would be able to get it.

As it is, it's hard enough to keep up with the flow of distortions, half truths, falsehoods, irrelevancies, and inanities.

(Just as aside, my claim was innocent lives, so your reframing here as murders [which includes felon on felon] was a nice try, but no cigar.)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:18:40 PM
Red herring alert!!
He made an idiotic statement and refuses to back it up because he can't.
Go back to reading about home defense weapons. You sure you didn't mean a BAR instead of AR? LOL!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:21:28 PM
He made an idiotic statement and refuses to back it up because he can't.
Your response to him doesn't even address his post, so yes it's a red herring.

ETA: It's also not an idiotic statement, while it can technically be wrong (which I very highly doubt is the case) it's still not idiotic, again you're going with ad hominem attacks.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:22:48 PM
If you would stop posting deflections, etc. I would be able to get it.

As it is, it's hard enough to keep up with the flow of distortions, half truths, falsehoods, irrelevancies, and inanities.

(Just as aside, my claim was innocent lives, so your reframing here as murders [which includes felon on felon] was a nice try, but no cigar.)
You made an idiotic claim and can't back it up. Use innocent lives for your stats. Now back it up!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Dan on February 21, 2018, 05:24:57 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=475211636214049&set=a.123524124716137.1073741828.100011756503055&type=3&theater
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:25:52 PM
ETA: It's also not an idiotic statement, while it can technically be wrong (which I very highly doubt is the case) it's still not idiotic, again you're going with ad hominem attacks.
You should stick with what you know. Guns is not one of them. How are you possible going to have a discussion on something you don't understand.

Her is a simple question that even you can answer about guns. How many hands do you use to shoot an AR?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:33:00 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=475211636214049&set=a.123524124716137.1073741828.100011756503055&type=3&theater
If the NRA says it then it is true.

I love this one: 11. You must have a safe at your residence in which to keep the firearm.
How many stolen guns are used by criminals each year?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:33:25 PM
You should stick with what you know. Guns is not one of them. How are you possible going to have a discussion on something you don't understand.
Appeal to ignorance fallacy.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:35:55 PM
All he had to do was tell the kids. I am sure they could have done their bus tour another day when he was there.
Instead of posting nonsense try reading up a little on different assault rifles so you can ask educated questions instead of just repeating talking points.
https://www.dailywire.com/news/27426/msnbc-hosts-target-florida-governor-not-meeting-hank-berrien (https://www.dailywire.com/news/27426/msnbc-hosts-target-florida-governor-not-meeting-hank-berrien)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:36:34 PM
Appeal to ignorance fallacy.
Can you answer a simple question?
Her is a simple question that even you can answer about guns. How many hands do you use to shoot an AR?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:40:42 PM
Can you answer a simple question?
1-2
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:42:03 PM
1-2
You use one hand to shoot an AR?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:43:51 PM
You use one hand to shoot an AR?
When necessary.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:46:29 PM
When necessary.
You mean like if you get shot in the other hand? Would you agree you need two hands to properly shoot an AR?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:48:51 PM
Would you agree you need two hands to properly shoot an AR?
yes
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 05:51:47 PM
yes
Great, we are making progress. Now would you agree it would be easier to grab a long rifle like an AR (by the barrel) over a handgun?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 05:58:09 PM
Great, we are making progress. Now would you agree it would be easier to grab a long rifle like an AR (by the barrel) over a handgun?
Presumably
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 06:00:05 PM
Great, we are making progress. Now would you agree it would be easier to grab a long rifle like an AR (by the barrel) over a handgun?
Arguendo, let's agree that it is.

Why would you want to cause more shootings to take place with handguns, which you've implied are harder to grab, than AR's?

Don't you care about saving lives?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 06:03:07 PM
Presumably
Great! I promise we are almost done.  :)
This you might not be able to answer. Would you agree an AR penetrates more than most handguns?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 06:15:26 PM
https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=475211636214049&set=a.123524124716137.1073741828.100011756503055&type=3&theater
The fact is that wherever you go there is someone with a gun to fight against any potential shooter. If there would be armed security guards in every school, shopping mall entrance and other public area then there is much less of an argument to be made that more guns make people safer. There already is a gun at every street corner and they therefore do not need another.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 06:20:12 PM
...there is much less of an argument to be made that more guns make people safer.
People are arguing that? Don't we have more guns then people? Wouldn't that make us the safest country in the world using the logic more guns make us safer?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 06:34:56 PM
People are arguing that? Don't we have more guns then people? Wouldn't that make us the safest country in the world using the logic more guns make us safer?
They don't do much good in the safe. If the security guard at the school would have had a gun how would this incident have been different?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 06:49:47 PM
They don't do much good in the safe.
They sure do when your not home.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 06:51:08 PM
NRA is against raising the age to buy an AR.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 07:18:27 PM


They sure do when your not home.

They saved lots of kids in this case. Of course you didn't address this.

If the security guard at the school would have had a gun how would this incident have been different?

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 07:34:10 PM
NRA is against raising the age to buy an AR.
What age would you like to see, and are people under that age significantly more likely to commit mass shootings?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 07:35:41 PM


What age would you like to see, and are people under that age significantly more likely to commit murder?
FTFY

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 07:45:00 PM
What age would you like to see, and are people under that age significantly more likely to commit mass shootings?
21

Still have a question waiting.
This you might not be able to answer. Would you agree an AR penetrates more than most handguns?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 07:47:45 PM
DING! you've got (mail) a question!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: gingyguy on February 21, 2018, 07:51:57 PM
They don't do much good in the safe. If the security guard at the school would have had a gun how would this incident have been different?
there actually was an armed guard , was on opposite side of the buliding/ campus
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 07:53:04 PM
21

Still have a question waiting.
Thats why they're better for home protection, they have more stopping power
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 07:56:35 PM
Thats why they're better for home protection, they have more stopping power
We are getting to home protection. Don't confuse stopping power, killing power and penetration.

So you agree they have penetrate more, great.

Now one last easy question. You agree homes have different rooms, doors, hallways, stairs, corners among other things?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: gingyguy on February 21, 2018, 08:00:41 PM
What age would you like to see, and are people under that age significantly more likely to commit mass shootings?
i believe its more than just the age . look at israel like @Dan posted there are a boat load of requirements even though the average israeli 19 year old went through more weapons training than his american counterpart. it has to do with common sense , which means that while it is a right to bear arms if you are not competent for whatever the reason you lose that right
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 21, 2018, 08:12:49 PM
We are getting to home protection. Don't confuse stopping power, killing power and penetration.

So you agree they have penetrate more, great.

Now one last easy question. You agree homes have different rooms, doors, hallways, stairs, corners among other things?
Yes
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 08:41:49 PM
Great! I promise we are almost done.  :)
This you might not be able to answer. Would you agree an AR penetrates more than most handguns?

Depends what you're asking in terms of penetration and at which ranges.

Bodily penetration with clothing (light or heavy - per FBI testing standards), don't know; my assumption is AR over handgun, but I would double check the testing before making a statement either way.

If you meant over-penetration through common walls, all common calibers over-penetrate, but handguns win.

I've already posted this:

No. He states quite explicitly that overpenetration is an issue by all bullets, but certainly worse from pistols and shotguns.

"The fact of the matter is that many of these bullets will penetrate numerous walls, but standard 5.56 loadings are the least of your worries when compared to pistol and shotgun fodder, which continue to take top honors in the category of over-penetration."
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 09:07:30 PM
...
Still have a question waiting.

As do you.

You still haven't answered @avromie7's question:
The AR is not the issue, it's the dead and injured that's the issue. If he didn't have an AR and instead had a semi-automatic handgun, how many people who were killed, would still be alive?


Further, after your implied statement that AR's are easier to grab:
Great, we are making progress. Now would you agree it would be easier to grab a long rifle like an AR (by the barrel) over a handgun?

You were asked:

Arguendo, let's agree that it is.

Why would you want to cause more shootings to take place with handguns, which you've implied are harder to grab, than AR's?

Don't you care about saving lives?

Waiting on your answers.

(Side note: Don't waste your time trying to show the superiority of handguns for home defense.

Ignoring that your arguments are weak, you'll trap yourself either way.

A) If, arguendo, handguns are deadlier, why would you push mass shooters towards using them over AR's?

B) If, arguendo, AR's are better, why are you disarming law abiding citizens and restricting their tools for self-defense?)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 09:19:06 PM
As do you.

You still haven't answered @avromie7's question:


Huh?


My bad read it wrong. One or two would have died.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 09:24:56 PM
Huh?

Running to night seder, so click on the link below to see the complete text of a post of mine, where I explain at length.

I go for a late lunch at Bagel Nosh, glance at at DDF, and what do I see?, he's posting again.

...

Let me answer for you, as you're clearly frightened of this question which cuts to the heart of your narrative.

There would be no discernable difference, as there are many SA handgun calibers that are just as lethal as common AR calibers at the typical distances of these mass shootings.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 09:27:45 PM
Running to night seder, so click on the link below to see the complete text of a post of mine, where I explain at length.
Now you are changing from he didn't answer it to that you have a reply to his answer? So then why are you saying that he did not answer?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 10:15:44 PM
If you meant over-penetration through common walls, all common calibers over-penetrate, but handguns win.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 10:28:58 PM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 21, 2018, 10:53:28 PM
Now you are changing from he didn't answer it to that you have a reply to his answer? So then why are you saying that he did not answer?
No, I'm saying that despite typing a reply, he didn't answer the question, and that he avoided answering because the answer exposes a fatal flaw in his "common sense" proposals.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 11:05:12 PM
/thread Overall very interesting. Here are some important points

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 11:06:59 PM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Yammer on February 21, 2018, 11:12:10 PM
Do you hear anyone screaming that felons should be able to own guns? Don't they have rights. 2A doesn't preclude them from owning guns.

Felons are a different thing altogether. They don't have the right to vote either.

@chaimmoskowitz do you agree with this? If so why would you say assault rifles should be banned any more than handguns?



Do I agree every time you pull the trigger a round is fired, yes. What is your point?

We have many gun problems in this country. You can't lump them all together.



Assault rifles have massive killing power. Most have 20-30 round magazines as standard. Way more accurate than handguns.
Every situation is different. The problem is these weapons have become so popular. Monkey see monkey do.
We are lucky these deranged individuals are not knowledgeable about guns or more lives would be lost.

Sorry but I don't understand the answer

(https://t.gyazo.com/teams/lowerwatt/fd9a9de894c17714eca899dac1638897.png)


They were told he was to busy. Going to a funeral to get votes is not a valid excuse to being to busy.What did he do after the last mass shooting in FL?

1) What makes you say that he didn't go to the last funeral? If the Orlando shooting was the last one in sure that he did.

2) Who decides which side is playing politics? They decided that the kids we're sincere about it while Scott is playing politics. Perhaps they we're sent to create a political scene and he went to the funeral as he's done in the past. ( Donno if he went..)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 21, 2018, 11:18:46 PM


2) Who decides which side is playing politics?
I know that does something to advance a position I disagree with is playing politics.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Yammer on February 21, 2018, 11:22:10 PM
I know that does something to advance a position I disagree with is playing politics.
Ding Ding we have a winner!

This thread turned sour...it's a 3 pronged personal vendetta at this point...

No offense intended...
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 11:22:24 PM
Felons are a different thing altogether. They don't have the right to vote either.

They can vote. I canít spend all my time correcting everything. 😂
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Yammer on February 21, 2018, 11:28:32 PM
They can vote. I canít spend all my time correcting everything.
I stand corrected. I thought that this was in all states.

I do see however that it varies by state

https://felonvoting.procon.org/view.resource.php?resourceID=000286
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180222/ba694aa214d3206b9424f3fe43397deb.jpg)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 21, 2018, 11:37:28 PM
Pathetic that his words are gold, because he is child was killed. It's sad and we are compassionate for him, but since when does his opinion matter? Why has he suddenly become a politician, and his opinions are heeded without thought.
https://youtu.be/zXMzzA3TVYA
Or this guy
https://youtu.be/Lo52BObqCds
These same kids who aren't developed enough to be able to buy guns, but enough to give their two cents in politics?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 21, 2018, 11:46:12 PM
I stand corrected. I thought that this was in all states.

I do see however that it varies by state
Correct. I was talking about Federal law like not being able to own a gun.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 02:25:26 AM


Impressive! I believe this is the first time I've seen you try to back up a claim with anything over than "common sense" "you know nothing" "I'm an expert" "your claim is stupid, idiotic, etc.". Props.

However, while it's an A for effort, it's a B for actual proof.

Perhaps, if walls were made of stacked 2x4's those videos might be relevant (although I saw some range issues, etc.).

Here is one link, of the many available, that goes through the issue: http://www.outdoorhub.com/ar-15-appropriate-home-defense-part-one-penetration-issues

Some relevant quotes (but please read the entire article):

Quote
...A heavier and slower pistol round, or a very light and fast rifle round... The thing about light and fast bullets is that they tend to get upset--specifically, fragment or tumble---when they hit harder things like walls or furniture. Tumbling and fragmenting both result in a very rapid loss of velocity and energy, therefore a lightweight rifle projectile going somewhere around 3,000 feet per second may actually have less unwanted penetration than a pistol round traveling in the 1,000 feet per second range.

...

...Shooting through drywall only, the 9mm projectiles went right through all four walls and right out the back. So did the .223 Remington full metal jacket loads. While both the 9mm and .223 Remington projectiles went through all four walls (eight pieces of Sheetrock), the .223 started to upset after passing through the second wall in the drywall-only test. As you can see in the photos, it went through walls three through four bumbling and tumbling---and losing lots of energy in the process. But the path stayed true, and the .223 projectiles were not knocked off-course. The 9mm rounds? They didn't deviate a bit and went through all four walls like butter...

... By observation of the fragmentation patterns, they were clearly losing velocity and energy. How much damage would they have done to a person at that point? I can't say more than "less" than the pistol rounds, which were still humming right along...

...You always have to worry about what's behind your target. Nearly all of the rounds tested went through at least four walls, although some obviously came out the back end with a lot less energy than others...
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: TheAsh on February 22, 2018, 08:21:49 AM
It's pretty weird how the media only focuses on the students that advance their agenda - weirdly, the student who is being interviewed gave a antigun message 4 hours before the shooting - pretty convenient for him...
https://www.infowars.com/david-hogg-holds-anti-gun-interview-4-hours-before-shooting/
Also:
https://www.infowars.com/student-anti-gun-activist-featured-in-cbs-la-news-story-six-months-ago/
http://www.thegatewaypundit.com/2018/02/exposed-school-shooting-surviver-turned-activist-david-hoggs-father-fbi-appears-coached-anti-trump-lines-video/

The antigun-control students just get censored and ignored...
https://www.infowars.com/florida-high-school-survivor-we-need-guns-to-protect-us-from-bad-guys/

It's hard to argue and say the media isn't blatantly pushing an agenda:
https://www.zerohedge.com/news/2018-02-22/florida-shooting-survivor-cnn-gave-scripted-question-after-refusing-question-about

If you're wondering why I'm using a so-called conspiracist sites like infowars, although they often go off the deep end, here they seem to be the only guys reporting the facts. Meanwhile, Youtube is removing any video that implies David Hoggs is not what he seems.
I'm all for a reasonable debate on gun control, but for some reason Dems always push when emotions are running high and there's no room for disagreement because you're branded 'evil'.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 09:47:48 AM
No way CNN would rig the questions at a town hall. Just ask Donna Brazile.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: elit on February 22, 2018, 10:22:01 AM
give rubio a lot of props for standing up and taking it there
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 10:46:41 AM
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mercaz1 on February 22, 2018, 10:48:01 AM
give rubio a lot of props for standing up and taking it there

might have killed his political career though by not being able to answer the NRA donation question. He did not look good yesterday at some points

the governor is probably toast for not coming at all
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 10:48:30 AM
My reading brought me to the conclusion that an AR15 is known as the ideal weapon for home defense.
Now the facts we agree on.

1 - AR you use two hands and a handgun you use one.
Now are there any home defense situations you need a free hand?
Opening a door
Turning on a light
Calling the police
Helping or carrying your child to safety
The list goes on but you get the idea

2 - AR has a higher penetration than most handguns.
Collateral damage is higher with an AR.

3 - Easier to grab the barrel of an AR than a handgun.
You have to navigate a home where the barrel is going to sickout like a sore thumb.

The list goes on and on that prove a handgun is a better choice for home defense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: skyguy918 on February 22, 2018, 10:50:19 AM
https://www.realclearpolitics.com/video/2018/02/22/shooting_survivor_colton_haab_cnn_gave_me_scripted_question_after_denying_question_about_armed_guards.html
Did you read till the bottom, including the update?

ETA: And since you like to talk about responsible journalism so much, how do they initially publish the article without any comment from CNN?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Sport on February 22, 2018, 10:55:09 AM
might have killed his political career though by not being able to answer the NRA donation question. He did not look good yesterday at some points

the governor is probably toast for not coming at all
+1 he certainly gets props for showing up to what was certain to be a hornets nest, with no way to not get hurt politically.  I think his performance will hurt him in the long run, he came off as was lacking in compassion and robotic in his responses.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 10:57:30 AM
Did you read till the bottom, including the update?

ETA: And since you like to talk about responsible journalism so much, how do they initially publish the article without any comment from CNN?
yes i did. Why?

Note that the statement there is contradictory to the one here

"Did not provide or script questions...nor have we ever"
No way CNN would rig the questions at a town hall. Just ask Donna Brazile.


Are you familiar with RCP? They post videos from news stations verbatim all the time. They are not writing a journalistic article here.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 10:59:16 AM
Impressive!
Its days now and you still have not backed up your idiotic claim that guns have saved more lives. We are waiting!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yuneeq on February 22, 2018, 11:03:29 AM
might have killed his political career though by not being able to answer the NRA donation question.

Why do people care so much about NRA donations? The unions give candidates much more money than the NRA, is that also a problem? Anyone that donates has an agenda. Welcome to politics.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:05:57 AM
Give him credit to be open to ideas. Now you must address the elephant in the room, GUNS!!!

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 11:07:41 AM
Give him credit to be open to ideas. Now you must address the elephant in the room, GUNS!!!

I would recommend that you first let this pass and then work on the next step instead of adding the more difficult part and killing the whole thing.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Sport on February 22, 2018, 11:09:53 AM
25 should be the min age to be able to purchase a gun. There are countless studies that the rational part of the brain is not fully developed until this age- we don't need people who cant make fully rationale decisions with access to firearms.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:11:04 AM
I would recommend that you first let this pass and then work on the next step instead of adding the more difficult part and killing the whole thing.
Unlike the nuts on both ends anything he does to help the situation is a plus. Sooner or later you need to address the elephant!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:12:35 AM
Why do people care so much about NRA donations? The unions give candidates much more money than the NRA, is that also a problem? Anyone that donates has an agenda. Welcome to politics.
Labor unions outspend the NRA somewhere in the range on 40:1
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 11:13:04 AM
Unlike the nuts on both ends anything he does to help the situation is a plus. Sooner or later you need to address the elephant!!!
I am simply talking tactical.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:16:16 AM
Labor unions outspend the NRA somewhere in the range on 40:1
OK what does that have to with anything? They are upset he is taking money from the NRA.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:16:56 AM
Now the facts we agree on.

1 - AR you use two hands and a handgun you use one.
Now are there any home defense situations you need a free hand?
Opening a door
Turning on a light
Calling the police
Helping or carrying your child to safety
The list goes on but you get the idea

2 - AR has a higher penetration than most handguns.
Collateral damage is higher with an AR.

3 - Easier to grab the barrel of an AR than a handgun.
You have to navigate a home where the barrel is going to sickout like a sore thumb.

The list goes on and on that prove a handgun is a better choice for home defense.

2) The FBIs testing disagrees with this claim.
3) If this is the case, why are they the go to gun for police when entering a home?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:17:07 AM
I am simply talking tactical.
Agree.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:19:18 AM
Labor unions outspend the NRA somewhere in the range on 40:1
Unions have forced membership, i.e. of you get hired by a company that had a unionized workforce you're, usually, forced to give money to the union, even if you disagree with them (http://www.nrtw.org/required-join-pay-private/).

Every single NRA member is a person who joined voluntarily and presumably desires their lobbying.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:20:29 AM
2) The FBIs testing disagrees with this claim.
3) If this is the case, why are they the go to gun for police when entering a home?
2 - FBI disagrees with what claim?
3 - You watch to much TV.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: skyguy918 on February 22, 2018, 11:21:54 AM
yes i did. Why?

Note that the statement there is contradictory to the one here

"Did not provide or script questions...nor have we ever"
Are you familiar with RCP? They post videos from news stations verbatim all the time. They are not writing a journalistic article here.
There is no contradiction at all - feel free to attempt to create one.

Regarding RCP - first of all, it's not verbatim at all. And second of all, it doesn't lessen the journalistic burden on either the news stations they base the pieces off of, nor RCP themselves.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:22:42 AM
Unions have forced membership, i.e. of you get hired by a company that had a unionized workforce you're, usually, forced to give money to the union, even if you disagree with them
Not all unions including one of the largest.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:23:42 AM
Its days now and you still have not backed up your idiotic claim that guns have saved more lives. We are waiting!!!
Stop adding even more posts that need to addressed and I'll be able to get to it.

It seems that you're a believer in using Brandolini's Law to maximum advantage: https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29437015
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:24:22 AM
OK what does that have to with anything? They are upset he is taking money from the NRA.
If the NRA can pay off politicians, why can't labor unions just pay them all off, if they spend so much more? The answer is that they do not pay off politicians, their power is not in money (unlike the labor unions) their power is in the number of people who agree with them, and vote with them, and donate with them. It's not the NRA it's the people.
Unions have forced membership, i.e. of you get hired by a company that had a unionized workforce you're, usually, forced to give money to the union, even if you disagree with them (http://www.nrtw.org/required-join-pay-private/).

Every single NRA member is a person who joined voluntarily and presumably desires their lobbying.
There are also many who are not members, and do not own guns, but they agree with the NRA
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yuneeq on February 22, 2018, 11:25:24 AM
OK what does that have to with anything? They are upset he is taking money from the NRA.

Unions have forced membership, i.e. of you get hired by a company that had a unionized workforce you're, usually, forced to give money to the union, even if you disagree with them (http://www.nrtw.org/required-join-pay-private/).

Every single NRA member is a person who joined voluntarily and presumably desires their lobbying.

The problem is they are implying (or straight out saying) that his positions are influenced by the NRA's donations.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:29:04 AM
The problem is they are implying (or straight out saying) that his positions are influenced by the NRA's donations.
Maybe they are saying you agree with their positions and we don't?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yuneeq on February 22, 2018, 11:30:02 AM
Maybe they are saying you agree with there positions and we don't?

No
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:32:11 AM
2 - FBI disagrees with what claim?
3 - You watch to much TV.
2) According to the FBI testing, an AR15 bullet is less deadly after passing thru a wall, than a handgun bullet is after passing thru a wall
3) Not true, but it's irrelevant. Most cops don't walk around with AR15s and keep handguns in their car in case they need to sweep a home, it goes the other way (they don't always go get long guns, but they never go switch their long guns out for handguns)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:32:33 AM
Maybe they are saying you agree with their positions and we don't?
Then the issue wouldn't be the money.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:32:47 AM
Stop adding even more posts that need to addressed and I'll be able to get to it.
This was one of your first idiotic statements you were called out on. Lets get to this one then we will move on to your numerous other ones.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:41:54 AM
2) According to the FBI testing, an AR15 bullet is less deadly after passing thru a wall, than a handgun bullet is after passing thru a wall
You don't understand guns or the data that is used. Do you understand a bullet has zero chance of going through 5 walls (ten pieces of drywall) without hitting something else. Your buddy posts something and you run with it. Do you live in a house that is completely empty? Are there things like solid doors, 2x4's, 2x8's, 2x10's, bookcases, furniture, appliances, plastic and steel pipes, metal sinks, closets and 100 other things that a bullet can hit?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 11:44:29 AM
Maybe they are saying you agree with their positions and we don't?
That is exactly what everyone who is attacking the NRA is saying. Their issue is that they disagree.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:46:09 AM
3) Not true, but it's irrelevant. Most cops don't walk around with AR15s and keep handguns in their car in case they need to sweep a home, it goes the other way (they don't always go get long guns, but they never go switch their long guns out for handguns)
The points you are trying to make are laughable.
Do you own a gun?
Have you ever shot a gun?
You ever have to use a gun to save your life?
Have you ever been shot?
Have you ever had home defense training?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:47:42 AM
That is exactly what everyone who is attacking the NRA is saying. Their issue is that they disagree.
Then wouldn't it make sense they would be against you taking money from them?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:50:00 AM
The points you are trying to make are laughable.
Do you own a gun?
Have you ever shot a gun?
You ever have to use a gun to save your life?
Have you ever been shot?
Have you ever had home defense training?
Should only doctors who've had cancer, treat cancer?

Can a male doctor be an OB/GYN in your universe?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:50:56 AM
Should only doctors who've had cancer, treat cancer?

Can a male doctor be an OB/GYN in your universe?
This was one of your first idiotic statements you were called out on. Lets get to this one then we will move on to your numerous other ones.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:53:24 AM
Should only doctors who've had cancer, treat cancer?

Can a male doctor be an OB/GYN in your universe?



This was one of your first idiotic statements you were called out on. Lets get to this one then we will move on to your numerous other ones.  :)

Stop adding even more posts that need to addressed and I'll be able to get to it.

It seems that you're a believer in using Brandolini's Law to maximum advantage: https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29437015
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:56:54 AM

Just ignore everything and concentrate on your first idiotic statement. Take a deep breath now.  :P
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 11:57:28 AM
Then wouldn't it make sense they would be against you taking money from them?
Of course but that is why we have a constitution in this country. Don't let @mordechain convince you they are only after the 2nd amendment. They are after the 1st as well.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:59:23 AM
Just ignore everything and concentrate on your first idiotic statement. Take a deep breath now. 
My priority is to correct the inaccurate info in as real time as possible, to stop false first impressions.

After that's done, I try to address the backlog.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:01:29 PM
Of course but that is why we have a constitution in this country.
I know you didn't say it but I am trying to figure out what other unions giving more money has to do with this.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 12:03:23 PM
My priority is to correct the inaccurate info in as real time as possible, to stop false first impressions.

After that's done, I try to address the backlog.
That leaves us with the first seemingly false impression which you left.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:04:50 PM
My priority is to correct the inaccurate info in as real time as possible, to stop false first impressions.
The only inaccurate info is your posts then your buddy repeats them.

Instead of being honest and admit you made an idiotic statement you continue making post that are even more idiotic!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 12:05:28 PM
I know you didn't say it but I am trying to figure out what other unions giving more money has to do with this.
The point is that they are trying to make it like it is immoral and corrupt for a politician to be taking money from the NRA and protecting their interests while they do exactly that and much more with organizations which align with their interests. That shows that they are full of it.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 12:05:37 PM
That leaves us with the first seemingly false impression which you left.
No, it leaves you with unsubstantiated claims made by multiple people and my unsubstantiated counter claim.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:06:10 PM
That leaves us with the first seemingly false impression which you left.
First of many!!!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:07:46 PM
The point is that they are trying to make it like it is immoral and corrupt for a politician to be taking money from the NRA and protecting their interests while they do exactly that and much more with organizations which align with their interests. That shows that they are full of it.
The old but officer he was speeding so why did you pull me over defense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 12:10:02 PM
The old but officer he was speeding so why did you pull me over defense.
It is not a defense since they did nothing wrong. It is showing how the whole thing is hypocritical. How can you pull me over for going 5 mph over the limit when you yourself when driving in your own car drive 40 mph over the speed limit. (even that is not a good analogy since one is on the job and one not)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:12:09 PM
It is not a defense since they did nothing wrong. It is showing how the whole thing is hypocritical. How can you pull me over for going 5 mph over the limit when you yourself when driving in your own car drive 40 mph over the speed limit. (even that is not a good analogy since one is on the job and one not)
I love the analogy. What he is doing is worse what I am doing defense.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 12:12:54 PM
The old but officer he was speeding so why did you pull me over defense.
A more honest comparison would be, "Officer, we're dealing with the posted speed (varying laws in question), if he is allowed to drive at that speed (union lobbying) - which he is, why is it illegal for me to drive (NRA lobbying) at that speed?"
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:16:50 PM
You don't understand guns or the data that is used. Do you understand a bullet has zero chance of going through 5 walls (ten pieces of drywall) without hitting something else. Your buddy posts something and you run with it. Do you live in a house that is completely empty? Are there things like solid doors, 2x4's, 2x8's, 2x10's, bookcases, furniture, appliances, plastic and steel pipes, metal sinks, closets and 100 other things that a bullet can hit?
I came across the info before he posted it, he just beat me to it (but again that's irrelevant). If a bullet missed the target, and instead went thru a wall (the most likely place it would go) it's more likely to kill if it's from a handgun, than if it's from an ar15
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:17:22 PM
A more honest comparison would be, "Officer, we're dealing with the posted speed (varying laws in question), if he is allowed to drive at that speed (union lobbying), why is it illegal for me (NRA lobbying) to drive at that speed?"
Sir your logic is wrong. My speed gun picked you up for speeding. Because someone else breaks the same law does not let you off the hook.

Now stop wasting time and backup your idiotic statement.  :P
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:20:02 PM
If a bullet missed the target, and instead went thru a wall (the most likely place it would go) it's more likely to kill if it's from a handgun, than if it's from an ar15
WOW you avoid every question and just repeat nonsense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:20:47 PM
A more honest comparison would be, "Officer, we're dealing with the posted speed (varying laws in question), if he is allowed to drive at 35 miles over (union lobbying), why is it illegal for me to drive (NRA lobbying) at 2 miles over.
FTFY
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:21:34 PM
The only inaccurate info is your posts then your buddy repeats them.

Instead of being honest and admit you made an idiotic statement you continue making post that are even more idiotic!!!
Can you please stop the personal attacks?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 12:23:01 PM
Sir your logic is wrong. My speed gun picked you up for speeding. Because someone else breaks the same law does not let you off the hook.

Your speed gun was designed in Communist China (or perhaps back in the USSR?) if it picks up lobbying as a violation of the law. No, the better question is, why are you harassing me for the same legal action everyone is doing?


Now stop wasting time and backup your idiotic statement. 

As soon as the flow of drivel dries up, we can turn to the backlog.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:31:36 PM
Can you please stop the personal attacks?
I am attacking his statements.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 12:35:00 PM
Of course but that is why we have a constitution in this country. Don't let @mordechain convince you they are only after the 2nd amendment. They are after the 1st as well.
"they" are the bogeyman. Very scary people.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:35:41 PM
I am attacking his statements.
Why is every statement you disagree with idiotic? Why can't you state your disagreement in a civilized manner?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:36:10 PM
As soon as the flow of drivel dries up, we can turn to the backlog.
Then stop posting your drivel and backup up your idiotic claim.  :P
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:37:28 PM
"they" are the bogeyman. Very scary people.
It's not like the left has never tried. They always call for ending "have speech" and "micro aggression" which in simple terms mean it should be illegal to say something that offends me.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:37:41 PM
Then stop posting your drivel and backup up your idiotic claim.  :P
Why is every statement you disagree with idiotic? Why can't you state your disagreement in a civilized manner?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:38:24 PM
Why is every statement you disagree with idiotic? Why can't you state your disagreement in a civilized manner?
It isn't and I do most of the time.
Now why don't you answer any of my last set of questions? Is it because the answer is no to every one of them?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 12:38:44 PM
"they" are the bogeyman. Very scary people.
Sort of like those gun owners. The only aspect anyone fears about them is that they vote.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 12:38:56 PM
Then stop posting your drivel and backup up your idiotic claim. 
If the best you can do is to ape my posts, what will you do when we get down to facts that disprove you?

Will you repost those as well?

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 12:43:11 PM
It isn't and I do most of the time.
Now why don't you answer any of my last set of questions? Is it because the answer is no to every one of them?
Which ones? this?
The points you are trying to make are laughable.
Do you own a gun?
Have you ever shot a gun?
You ever have to use a gun to save your life?
Have you ever been shot?
Have you ever had home defense training?
He already answered it for me, and your only response was to refer back to something else. (Seems to be your MO when you don't have a good answer)
Should only doctors who've had cancer, treat cancer?

Can a male doctor be an OB/GYN in your universe?
Would you like me to repeat it again?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 12:53:37 PM
FTFY
That phrasing has lobbying as something illegal or as something that should be illegal.

Lobbying is precisely what should be happening. People can and should band together to advocate for legislation and executive action they believe in.

Will go back and edit my post to make it clearer.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 12:56:53 PM
Which ones? this? He already answered it for me, and your only response was to refer back to something else. (Seems to be your MO when you don't have a good answer)Would you like me to repeat it again?
How old are you? Can you speak for yourself? Can you ask your own questions? Now can YOU answer the questions I ask YOU or should I not ask YOU anymore questions?

How about this simple one. Fair to say you have no personal experience with guns or knowledge of?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 01:00:46 PM
How old are you? Can you speak for yourself? Can you ask your own questions? Now can YOU answer the questions I ask YOU or should I not ask YOU anymore questions?

How about this simple one. Fair to say you have no personal experience with guns or knowledge of?
@avromie7, it seems you struck a nerve here.

(Perhaps ask him if he's attacking your statements or yourself personally, with this latest missive from on high (YOU, YOU)...)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:03:48 PM
@avromie7, it seems you struck a nerve here.

(Perhaps ask him if he's attacking your statements or yourself personally, with this latest missive from on high (YOU, YOU)...)
Not an issue. Sheep like to stick together.  :P
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 01:05:24 PM
Not an issue. Sheep like to stick together. 
This characterisation is just "attacking the statement, not the person", right?

Just checkin'...
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:07:12 PM
This characterisation is just "attacking the statement, not the person", right?

Just checkin'...
No that was attacking a troll. Now PUOSU!!!  :P
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 01:09:19 PM

No that was attacking a troll. Now PUOSU!!! 

Stop adding even more posts that need to addressed and I'll be able to get to it.

It seems that you're a believer in using Brandolini's Law to maximum advantage: https://m.wikidata.org/wiki/Q29437015
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 01:10:06 PM
How old are you? Can you speak for yourself? Can you ask your own questions? Now can YOU answer the questions I ask YOU or should I not ask YOU anymore questions?

Again you're going with personal attacks.

How about you explain what you expect me to do when someone else says exactly what I was going to say? Should I just repeat it?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 01:10:38 PM
No that was attacking a troll. Now PUOSU!!!  :P
You couldn't have been attacking a troll, because you're the only one trolling.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:15:00 PM
You couldn't have been attacking a troll, because you're the only one trolling.
You are clueless when it comes to guns and I am the one trolling. I tried to educate you on home defense and you just repeat what the troll says. You refused to open your eyes and think for yourself. Now you have others answering questions for you.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:16:35 PM
Again you're going with personal attacks.
They were all legit questions.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 01:17:48 PM
You are clueless when it comes to guns and I am the one trolling. I tried to educate you on home defense and you just repeat what the troll says. You refused to open your eyes and think for yourself. Now you have others answering questions for you.
clueless when it comes to guns ≠ trolling
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:19:54 PM
clueless when it comes to guns
Thank you, finally!!! Now it would be best for you to listen to those who know about guns instead of asking and throwing nonsense out there.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 01:23:00 PM
Stop adding even more posts that need to addressed and I'll be able to get to it.
So he should be silent until you decide to answer while you disappear for a few days. Ahh.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 01:26:25 PM
Thank you, finally!!! Now it would be best for you to listen to those who know about guns instead of asking and throwing nonsense out there.
::) ::) This conversation is becoming less civil by the minute.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 01:27:40 PM
::) ::) This conversation has ceased to be a conversation.
FTFY
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 01:28:58 PM
So he should be silent until you decide to answer while you disappear for a few days. Ahh.
He's free to do whatever he wants.

I don't know his schedule, but mine gives me limited time to respond.

When I see new posts I prioritise those, as those are fresh.

As well, it takes less time to respond to something that's only one post or poster, as compared to a lengthy post with lots of quotes, the comments that explain/stitch it together, etc.

So yes, if he would like a response to something that's old, he should stop adding to the backlog.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:30:20 PM
::) ::) This conversation is becoming less civil by the minute.
Look I am basically clueless when it comes to Judaism. When someone like @aygart explains something about Judaism to me I listen and try to learn from it. I am not going to keep repeating over and over something that he corrected me on.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 01:31:11 PM
He's free to do whatever he wants.

I don't know his schedule, but mine gives me limited time to respond.

When I see new posts I prioritise those, as those are fresh.

As well, it takes less time to respond to something that's only one post or poster, as compared to a lengthy post with lots of quotes, the comments that explain/stitch it together, etc.

So yes, if he would like a response to something that's old, he should stop adding to the backlog.
וְאוֹמֵר עַל רִאשׁוֹן רִאשׁוֹן וְעַל אַחֲרוֹן אַחֲרוֹן,
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 01:33:47 PM
Look I am basically clueless when it comes to Judaism. When someone like @aygart explains something about Judaism to me I listen and try to learn from it. I am not going to keep repeating over and over something that he corrected me on.
@aygart doesn't resort to personal attacks.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 01:36:52 PM
וְאוֹמֵר עַל רִאשׁוֹן רִאשׁוֹן וְעַל אַחֲרוֹן אַחֲרוֹן,
I see.

So when you come to shul and your chaver is telling someone the wrong hours for the post office, you interject with a d'rosha about how he was wrong about the postal routes?

Got it.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 01:58:56 PM
@aygart doesn't resort to personal attacks.
So it is because of the personal attacks why you wonít listen to reason?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 02:02:57 PM
So it is because of the personal attacks why you wonít listen to reason?
You don't get to decide when the conversation should be civil, and when it should be filled with personal attacks. You can't expect everyone else to answer all your questions (civilly to boot) while you won't stop making personal attacks. This conversation has already been poisoned with all your personal attacks.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on February 22, 2018, 02:37:56 PM
Do we need the Chief Rabbi to be the moderator?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 02:39:21 PM
Do we need the Chief Rabbi to be the moderator?
Somehow whenever the Chief Rabbi was involved everything spiraled out of control.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 03:14:38 PM
You don't get to decide when the conversation should be civil, and when it should be filled with personal attacks. You can't expect everyone else to answer all your questions (civilly to boot) while you won't stop making personal attacks. This conversation has already been poisoned with all your personal attacks.
What poisoned this thread is idiotic statements not backed up. These are kids lives we are talking about. I am not going to let this crap go unchallenged.

I answered your question and you don't like the answer because it disproves your point. They you spin that by attacking me. Then it is my fault you don't know anything about guns to ask reasonable questions.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 03:15:27 PM
Do we need the Chief Rabbi to be the moderator?
Are you able to use common sense and leave political views out of it?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 03:37:21 PM
Where was this armed security officer when this was going on?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: skyguy918 on February 22, 2018, 03:45:01 PM
Something for everyone here:
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mercaz1 on February 22, 2018, 04:47:29 PM
Where was this armed security officer when this was going on?

different building on the campus
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 05:40:28 PM
Where was this armed security officer when this was going on?
Invalid Tweet ID
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 22, 2018, 05:49:42 PM
This is coming from this guy
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 07:05:42 PM
...but we need to arm more people. A good gun will stop a bad gun.  >:( >:( >:(
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/douglas-school-cop-who-%e2%80%98never-went-in%e2%80%99-during-shooting-has-resigned/ar-BBJtrNW?li=BBnb7Kz
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 07:22:56 PM
Just watched a teacher that carries interview on FOX. Martha asked her what training she had. She took the concealed carry course (required) and goes to the range a lot. This is why most don't want teachers to carry. 
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 07:32:12 PM
...but we need to arm more people. A good gun will stop a bad gun.  >:( >:( >:(
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/douglas-school-cop-who-%e2%80%98never-went-in%e2%80%99-during-shooting-has-resigned/ar-BBJtrNW?li=BBnb7Kz
No one said a good gun will stop a bad gun, but the only way to stop a bad gun is with a good gun. Thats why cops and armed guards are not enough.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 07:33:31 PM
Just watched a teacher that carries interview on FOX. Martha asked her what training she had. She took the concealed carry course (required) and goes to the range a lot. This is why most don't want teachers to carry.
Yup it would be much better to allow a shooter to keep shooting until the cops show up, 5 minutes later.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 22, 2018, 07:36:29 PM
Yup it would be much better to allow a shooter to keep shooting until the cops show up, 5 minutes later.
He was just explaining why teachers don't want to. Are you advocating forcing teachers to carry?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 07:39:00 PM
He was just explaining why teachers don't want to. Are you advocating forcing teachers to carry?
Thats not what he said, read it again.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 07:47:05 PM
Yup it would be much better to allow a shooter to keep shooting until the cops show up, 5 minutes later.
You are worse than a troll. You actually believe this total nonsense you are spewing!!!

clueless when it comes to guns
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 07:51:31 PM
No one said a good gun will stop a bad gun, but the only way to stop a bad gun is with a good gun. Thats why cops and armed guards are not enough.
Really? You had a good guy with a gun, what happened?  >:( >:( >:(
NRA Wayne LaPierre "All it takes to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 08:02:32 PM
Really? You had a good guy with a gun, what happened?  >:( >:( >:(
NRA Wayne LaPierre "All it takes to stop a bad guy with a gun is a good guy with a gun"
Well clearly the security guard failed us. What would be your suggestion on how to stop the bad gun?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 08:03:56 PM
You are worse than a troll. You actually believe this total nonsense you are spewing!!!
Again you're back to personal attacks. Do you know how to have a discussion without personal attacks?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 08:08:43 PM
Again you're back to personal attacks. Do you know how to have a discussion without personal attacks?
I am confused. When you call me a troll is that a personal attack.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 08:11:09 PM
Well clearly the security guard failed us. What would be your suggestion on how to stop the bad gun?
Clearly you keep making statements that are untrue. I point it out and instead of acknowledging the facts you pivot.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 08:27:54 PM
I am confused. When you call me a troll is that a personal attack.
You can't keep going with personal attacks, and expect that no one will hit you with personal attacks
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 08:31:29 PM
Clearly you keep making statements that are untrue. I point it out and instead of acknowledging the facts you pivot.
You made another straw man argument, the fact that this guard didn't do his job does nothing to disprove that good guns are the only way to stop bad guns.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 08:33:48 PM
You can't keep going with personal attacks, and expect that no one will hit you with personal attacks
Just wanted to make sure it was a personal attack by you.

Now how are we going to have a discussion about guns when you said you are clueless about them? I am tired of just constantly correcting your untrue statements.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 08:35:20 PM
You made another straw man argument, the fact that this guard didn't do his job does nothing to disprove that good guns are the only way to stop bad guns.
Why do you keep commenting on something you know nothing about? Have you ever been in the position this guard has been in?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yuneeq on February 22, 2018, 08:50:17 PM
Just watched a teacher that carries interview on FOX. Martha asked her what training she had. She took the concealed carry course (required) and goes to the range a lot. This is why most don't want teachers to carry.

Not sure I follow. Because she is trained, people wouldn't her want to carry?
So people only want untrained teachers to carry?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 08:53:13 PM
Not sure I follow. Because she is trained, people wouldn't her want to carry?
So people only want untrained teachers to carry?
The point I am making is concealed carry training is a joke. If she was serious she would take numerous self defense courses.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 08:56:54 PM


Now how are we going to have a discussion about guns when you said you are clueless about them?

I never said that, I just pointed out that you comment made no sense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 08:57:37 PM


Have you ever been in the position this guard has been in?

That's irrelevant.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yuneeq on February 22, 2018, 08:58:58 PM
The point I am making is concealed carry training is a joke. If she was serious she would take numerous self defense courses.

Someone that takes a course and goes to the shooting range frequently is good in my book.
You don't have to be Vasily Zaytsev to take out the shooter without harming students.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 08:59:48 PM

That's irrelevant.
Again you are clueless. It is completely relevant.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:01:23 PM
Someone that takes a course and goes to the shooting range frequently is good in my book.
You don't have to be Vasily Zaytsev to take out the shooter without harming students.
It is not that simple. That's why most experts and law enforcement are against arming teachers.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:04:33 PM

I never said that, I just pointed out that you comment made no sense.
If my comment made no sense to you then it is because as you said you are clueless when it comes to guns. When something in Judaism makes no sense I ask for help to understand. You should try the same.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:07:16 PM
If my comment made no sense to you then it is because as you said you are clueless when it comes to guns. When something in Judaism makes no sense I ask for help to understand. You should try the same.
Thats what Google is for, I wouldn't ask a self proclaimed expert who spews BS
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yuneeq on February 22, 2018, 09:09:06 PM
It is not that simple. That's why most experts and law enforcement are against arming teachers.

Do you believe a school will have more/less/same amount of victims in a mass shooting if there are armed teachers with shooting range experience?

ETA: Because I think it's quite simple to state that on average there will be less victims.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:11:17 PM
It is not that simple. That's why most experts and law enforcement are against arming teachers.
במקום שאין איש, השתדל להיות איש
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:13:12 PM
Thats what Google is for, I wouldn't ask a self proclaimed expert who spews BS
Since you rely on Google and not first hand experience try "buck fever" and you see why being in that situation is relevant.

If you are clueless about guns how do you know if anything is BS? Should I question you about the H because I found a article on Google saying it was BS?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 22, 2018, 09:14:54 PM
במקום שאין איש השתדל להיות איש
Google gives a lame translation.....
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:15:34 PM


how do you know if anything is BS?
When you resort to personal attacks, and self proclaimed expertise, I know it's BS.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:17:22 PM
Google gives a lame translation.....
Fixed
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:18:02 PM
When you resort to personal attacks, and self proclaimed expertise, I know it's BS.
You admit to being clueless about guns. Why would anyone take anything you say serious?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 22, 2018, 09:19:06 PM
Fixed
Cool how that changed it.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:24:22 PM
You admit to being clueless about guns. Why would anyone take anything you say serious?
You twist my words, and I correct you in case it was a mistake, but you continue to use your twisted interpretation. Way to have an civil discussion!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:27:01 PM
You twist my words, and I correct you in case it was a mistake, but you continue to use your twisted interpretation. Way to have an civil discussion!
You didn't say you were clueless about guns but not trolls?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:35:50 PM
You didn't say you were clueless about guns but not trolls?
No I said "clueless about guns ≠ troll" that's all. I never even addressed your senseless comment, because it made no sense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:39:09 PM
No I said "clueless about guns ≠ troll" that's all. I never even addressed your senseless comment, because it made no sense.
Do you not understand basic English?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 09:50:25 PM
You better hurry back as your boy needs a life line.  :)
@ssvarc
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 09:56:33 PM
Do you not understand basic English?
Will you ever stop the personal attacks?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 10:05:53 PM
Will you ever stop the personal attacks?
It was an honest question. When ever you get caught you deflect. You make one after another untrue statements and I am going to call you out on them.

What point are you trying to make. You already admitted and proven to be clueless so whatís your point?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 10:23:59 PM


It was an honest question.

When have you ever asked an honest question? Or answered a question that doesn't dot your narrative honestly? I'm done with being harassed by the self proclaimed gun expert whose only defense is "you're clueless and I'm an expert"
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 10:30:49 PM
When have you ever asked an honest question? Or answered a question that doesn't dot your narrative honestly? I'm done with being harassed by the self proclaimed gun expert whose only defense is "you're clueless and I'm an expert"
Again you make up stuff. You keep calling me an expert. Where did I say I was an expert?

You said you were clueless. I knew it as everyone else did before you finally admitted it. If you think you are going to keep making false clueless statements and I am not going to challenge it you are nuts.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 10:31:54 PM
Well clearly the security guard failed us. What would be your suggestion on how to stop the bad gun?
Make them a lot more expensive for everyone. Massive taxes on guns and ammo. It's 2a proof, and it would work
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 10:35:35 PM
Make them a lot more expensive for everyone. Massive taxes on guns and ammo. It's 2a proof, and it would work
What happens when you have a determined maniac who gets a gun, and doesn't care how expensive it is because he knows he's not going to see another day of freedom? Who's going to stop him?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 10:37:22 PM
What happens when you have a determined maniac who gets a gun, and doesn't care how expensive it is because he knows he's not going to see another day of freedom? Who's going to stop him?
Hard to see a 18 year old maniac come up with the $25,000 license fee for am ar15
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 10:43:37 PM
Hard to see a 18 year old maniac come up with the $25,000 license fee for am ar15
A $25000 fee to own a gun? That would never make it thru under 2A.

What about a 30 year old maniac?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 10:48:26 PM
A $25000 fee to own a gun? That would never make it thru under 2A.

What about a 30 year old maniac?
By making it hard, you eliminate most of the really crazy ones. No policy will ever stop all shootings. But getting the number of guns out in society down will help a lot.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:01:48 PM
By making it hard, you eliminate most of the really crazy ones. No policy will ever stop all shootings. But getting the number of guns out in society down will help a lot.
Not at a rate any greater than law abiding citizens. And this is besides for the fact that a $25k license fee would never make it under 2A
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:20:49 PM
Open mouth insert foot!!!  :)

What's 1 officer at the front desk of a huge school building going to do to stop someone from walking into the back of the building and shooting up a few classrooms before the officer even knows anything happened, VS the odds that the teacher in the first classroom he goes into or at least 1 or 2 in the surrounding few classrooms have guns to stop him. In a mass shooting incident, every second counts.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 11:35:05 PM
Not at a rate any greater than law abiding citizens. And this is besides for the fact that a $25k license fee would never make it under 2A
There was an outright assault weapon ban (now expired) that somehow survived the 2a challenges. (And it isn't a coincidence that the frequency of mass murder has really picked up since then.)
 A sliding scale tax/fee on manufacturing and eventually possession of firearms, with the really high taxes on the military type weapons would go a long way to reducing the number of guns in society, and save many lives.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:38:06 PM
There was an outright assault weapon ban (now expired) that somehow survived the 2a challenges. (And it isn't a coincidence that the frequency of mass murder has really picked up since then.)
The right always says show me one law that would have stop this. Well here is one. He would not have been able to buy this AR.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:39:08 PM
Make them a lot more expensive for everyone. Massive taxes on guns and ammo. It's 2a proof, and it would work
1. How will a tax get rid of all existing guns?

2. How will this stop people making their own?

3. You can't tax ink for 1A, you can't tax guns and ammo for 2A. (For the pedantically inclined, this is a common term, understood as a tax designed to inhibit the right.)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:42:31 PM
The right always says show me one law that would have stop this. Well here is one. He would not have been able to buy this AR.
I see, so the Left doesn't care if the same amount of kids are killed using handguns, as long as it isn't by a scary looking gun?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 11:42:40 PM
1. How will a tax get rid of all existing guns?

2. How will this stop people making their own?

3. You can't tax ink for 1A, you can't tax guns and ammo for 2A. (For the pedantically inclined, this is a common term, understood as a tax designed to inhibit the right.)
1. Eventually, a tax/registration/fee on existing guns. Including self made.
2. Cultures change over time. Courts change over time. Constitutional interpretation changes over time.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:46:25 PM
I see, so the Left doesn't care if the same amount of kids are killed using handguns, as long as it isn't by a scary looking gun?
I am just showing how a law we had would have stopped him from buying an AR.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:46:33 PM
1. Eventually, a tax/registration/fee on existing guns. Including self made.
2. Cultures change over time. Courts change over time. Constitutional interpretation changes over time.

1. All these fees will only affect law abiding citizens
2. Courts and constitutional interpretation should not be changing over time.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:48:19 PM
1. Eventually, a tax/registration/fee on existing guns. Including self made.
2. Cultures change over time. Courts change over time. Constitutional interpretation changes over time.
1. There is no Federal registration of arms; are you aware? How will you tax the hundreds of millions of existing arms?

2. People who will make their own, to avoid your 25K tax, won't self report.

3. Yeah, I guess you should post as much as possible here, 'cause when culture (instead of Amendment) will remove 2A, true 1A will be long gone.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 11:49:33 PM

1. It all these fees will only affect law abiding citizens
2. Courts and constitutional interpretation should not be changing over time.
1.As the number of guns drops off gradually, it helps everyone.
2. Um.. did men have the right to marry each other ten minutes ago?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:50:11 PM
1. There is no Federal registration of arms; are you aware?
What about full auto weapons?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:50:44 PM
I am just showing how a law we had would have stopped him from buying an AR.
So, as long as the scary gun isn't used, other guns won't really kill kids?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:52:31 PM


1.As the number of guns drops off gradually, it helps everyone.

How does it help everyone? It leaves innocent law abiding citizens defenseless to lawless criminals.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:53:10 PM
So, as long as the scary gun isn't used, other guns won't really kill kids?
All guns can kill. If you want to come at me with a handgun I will get my brothers AK and we can see who wins.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 22, 2018, 11:56:14 PM
1. There is no Federal registration of arms; are you aware?
What about full auto weapons?
I think you missed this question?  ;)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 22, 2018, 11:56:19 PM
Because with less guns around less criminals use guns, and much less crime overall. It never ceases to amaze me that the experience of literally the entire rest of the civilized world is mentally blocked off by people who "just love their second amendment".
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 22, 2018, 11:58:04 PM
Because with less guns around less criminals use guns, and much less crime overall. It never ceases to amaze me that the experience of literally the entire rest of the civilized would is mentally blocked off by people who "just love their second amendment".
Do you have stats for your claim of "much less crime overall"
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 22, 2018, 11:59:47 PM
What about full auto weapons?
I was referring to arms in the legal context of Heller.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 12:00:10 AM
2 second Google..(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/c8530d31792b0b0312160b5d37dc5554.jpg)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:02:53 AM
All guns can kill. If you want to come at me with a handgun I will get my brothers AK and we can see who wins.  :)
I'm surprised that someone who claims that "assault weapons" are the issue, would have or use one.

To put it mildly, it seems hypocritical.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:04:20 AM
I was referring to arms in the legal context of Heller.
LOL - Translation: Yes FA has federal registration.

Did you have time to backup your original statement you have been avoiding for days. Your buddy doesn't believe the claim either.

+1 I've come across that claim numerous times, but I didn't quote it because there seems to be no proof to it. I've yet to come across any proof that the numbers going around have any basis.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 23, 2018, 12:04:28 AM
2 second Google..(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/c8530d31792b0b0312160b5d37dc5554.jpg)
Thats not overall crime rates.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 23, 2018, 12:05:14 AM
LOL - Translation: Yes FA has federal registration.

Did you have time to backup your original statement you have been avoiding for days. Your buddy doesn't believe the claim either.
Yet another twisted statement
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:08:09 AM
I'm surprised that someone who claims that "assault weapons" are the issue, would have or use one.

To put it mildly, it seems hypocritical.
I don't now and never owned an AR or AK. I have shot thousand's of rounds threw both of them. I have shot many FA weapons also. This how you become educated about these things without having to rely on Google.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 12:08:34 AM
Another 2 seconds..(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/5adf3fd72b4dd128dc4e94d6e043997c.jpg)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:10:54 AM
Another 2 seconds..
...but that doesn't make sense. We have the most guns so shouldn't we be the safest?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:12:47 AM
Yet another twisted statement
Everyone can read it for themselves and decide.
+1 I've come across that claim numerous times, but I didn't quote it because there seems to be no proof to it. I've yet to come across any proof that the numbers going around have any basis.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:13:51 AM


LOL - Translation: Yes FA has federal registration.

Correct and irrelevant to arms in the legal context of Heller.

Do you dispute the fact that there is no Federal registry for the roughly 300 million guns that exist in the country?

Did you have time to backup your original statement you have been avoiding for days. Your buddy doesn't believe the claim either.

Sorry, you, and others, having been keeping me busy with new stuff. (Someone here thought slavery was enshrined in the Constitution at the Founding, etc.)

My buddy should reread the link I brought to the article by Thomas Sowell and then Google the keywords I provided.

I imagine he can change his opinion when he sees the facts, but I wonder if you're open to reason; you seem to have made up your mind and now don't care about the facts.

If this assessment is true, it's sad.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:17:56 AM

Correct and irrelevant to arms in the legal context of Heller.

Do you dispute the fact that there is no Federal registry for the roughly 300 million guns that exist in the country?
I was just correcting your factually wrong statement. Not a big deal but it is taking up a lot of my time just between the two of you.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 12:19:36 AM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:20:23 AM
...but that doesn't make sense. We have the most guns so shouldn't we be the safest?
No, the ownership of a gun isn't the only factor to determine safety, it also depends (among many other factors) on the threats being faced.

What gun ownership offers (among other things) is a tool for self defense.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:21:11 AM
I was just correcting your factually wrong statement. Not a big deal but it is taking up a lot of my time just between the two of you.  :)
Have you ever read Heller? Do you dispute my claim as to the common meaning of arms?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:23:31 AM
No, the ownership of a gun isn't the only factor to determine safety, it also depends (among many other factors) on the threats being faced.

What gun ownership offers (among other things) is a tool for self defense.
Interesting. Can someone properly defend themselves with a handgun or shotgun?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:29:53 AM
Have you ever read Heller? Do you dispute my claim as to the common meaning of arms?
I understand why you want to bring in Heller only after I showed your statement to be factually wrong.  ;)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:34:55 AM
Interesting. Can someone properly defend themselves with a handgun or shotgun?
What are they defending themselves from? What firearm options are available to them? Where are they located? What is their physical condition? What is the level of their training?

These are just some of the questions we would need to discuss in order to give a meaningful answer.

But wait!

You have questions pending as well, which you've never answered.

If SA handguns were substituted for an AR in a typical attack, what difference would it make in dead or wounded?

If you believe, as you've stated, that it's easier to disarm someone wielding an AR as opposed to a handgun, why would you want to push attackers into using handguns, thus making it harder for them to be disarmed by their victims?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:39:16 AM
If SA handguns were substituted for an AR in a typical attack, what difference would it make in dead or wounded?
I did answer it but you and your buddy didn't like my answer because it showed way less would be dead. Now you want to add wounded?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:40:53 AM
What are they defending themselves from? What firearm options are available to them? Where are they located? What is their physical condition? What is the level of their training?

These are just some of the questions we would need to discuss in order to give a meaningful answer.
I am in a good mood so your choice.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:41:39 AM
I understand why you want to bring in Heller only after I showed your statement to be factually wrong.  ;)
I brought Heller when you challenged my factually correct statement, to demonstrate it's correctness.

I'll take your silence to the question that you acknowledge that a federal registry doesn't exist for the roughly 300 million arms in the country.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:45:56 AM
I brought Heller when you challenged my factually correct statement, to demonstrate it's correctness.
All you showed was you had to backtrack after I showed your statement to be factually wrong. No one mentioned Heller until you brought it in out of the blue. Lets just agree to disagree and everyone can decide for themselves.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 12:46:54 AM
2 second Google..(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180223/c8530d31792b0b0312160b5d37dc5554.jpg)
Is that the entire civilized world?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 12:49:05 AM
Who's missing?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:51:16 AM
I did answer it but you and your buddy didn't like my answer because it showed way less would be dead.

As the question wasn't about substituting .22 SA handguns for AR's, but SA handguns in general, no, you've never answered the question.

These "debating tactics" will only further rob you of credibility. My advice is to answer questions honestly, and explain your POV.

Now you want to add wounded?

You've avoided the question for so long, you've forgotten what was asked. Here, let me help you:

The AR is not the issue, it's the dead and injured that's the issue. If he didn't have an AR and instead had a semi-automatic handgun, how many people who were killed, would still be alive?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yitzgar on February 23, 2018, 12:51:36 AM
Who's missing?
There are only 14 countries listed. It's missing at least dozens of other countries
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 12:56:23 AM
Whoops, they left off Liechtenstein..
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 12:57:28 AM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 12:58:29 AM
All you showed was you had to backtrack after I showed your statement to be factually wrong. No one mentioned Heller until you brought it in out of the blue. Lets just agree to disagree and everyone can decide for themselves.
The statement remains unchanged, I've never backtracked from it.

It seems that you forgot about Heller, tried to make a pedantic gotcha, and are now beating a tactical retreat.

These are not the signs of a serious discussion. Sad.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:59:54 AM
As the question wasn't about substituting .22 SA handguns for AR's, but SA handguns in general, no, you've never answered the question.

These "debating tactics" will only further rob you of credibility. My advice is to answer questions honestly, and explain your POV.

You've avoided the question for so long, you've forgotten what was asked. Here, let me help you:
I guess you have problems with the English language also. He asked "instead had a semi-automatic handgun". "a" does not mean "SA handguns in general". I picked "a" SA handgun that had the same diameter.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ssvarc on February 23, 2018, 01:00:08 AM
I am in a good mood so your choice.  :)
At one o'clock? My choice is bed. Stay well.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:00:40 AM
...but we need to arm more people. A good gun will stop a bad gun.  >:( >:( >:(
http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/douglas-school-cop-who-%e2%80%98never-went-in%e2%80%99-during-shooting-has-resigned/ar-BBJtrNW?li=BBnb7Kz (http://www.msn.com/en-us/news/us/douglas-school-cop-who-%e2%80%98never-went-in%e2%80%99-during-shooting-has-resigned/ar-BBJtrNW?li=BBnb7Kz)

The security guard model is what has worked in Israel much more than any gun law. The terrorists don't care about gn laws.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:02:12 AM
The statement remains unchanged, I've never backtracked from it.

It seems that you forgot about Heller, tried to make a pedantic gotcha, and are now beating a tactical retreat.

These are not the signs of a serious discussion. Sad.
Everyone can decide for themselves in your statement was factually correct.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:07:55 AM
Not accurate. Didn't the shooting already start?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:10:57 AM
Not accurate. Didn't the shooting already start?
Huh?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:12:24 AM
Who's missing?
You can start here
https://crimeresearch.org/2015/06/comparing-death-rates-from-mass-public-shootings-in-the-us-and-europe/
Each side is fully capable of cherry picking data. You and Vox do not have a monopoly on it.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:16:42 AM
Huh?
I assume when he is talking cowardice of his own people letting the shooting happen is about the security guard. It already started before he arrived on scene, no?

They said the FBI dropped the ball. Did this guy do anything illegal before hand that they could have arrested him for?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:19:05 AM
I assume when he is talking cowardice of his own people letting the shooting happen is about the security guard. It already started before he arrived on scene, no?

They said the FBI dropped the ball. Did this guy do anything illegal before hand that they could have arrested him for?
I still don't see what you are getting at
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:22:20 AM
I still don't see what you are getting at
This part "cowardice of his own ppl let the shooting happen" is talking about the deputy on duty at the school, no? How could he prevent it from happening?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:23:18 AM
This part "cowardice of his own ppl let the shooting happen" is talking about the deputy on duty at the school, no? How could he prevent it from happening?
He didn't mean prevent totally but he could have stopped it in the middle.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:27:11 AM
He didn't mean prevent totally but he could have stopped it in the middle.
I think we need to get an accurate timeline first. Could be another LAS when the first reports were not accurate.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:29:30 AM
I think we need to get an accurate timeline first. Could be another LAS when the first reports were not accurate.
Maybe but the point is still valid. This guy had the evidence which led him to release this statement already last night yet he himself was self righteously grandstanding and lecturing Rubio while he kept it to himself.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 01:36:35 AM
https://www.vosizneias.com/292085/2018/02/22/lincoln-ne-first-national-bank-to-halt-production-of-nra-credit-card/
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 09:13:32 AM
https://www.vosizneias.com/292085/2018/02/22/lincoln-ne-first-national-bank-to-halt-production-of-nra-credit-card/
5x on gas. 😂
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mercaz1 on February 23, 2018, 09:27:30 AM
I heard that the whole attack was 6 minutes and the deputy was outside the building for 4 minutes
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 10:11:07 AM
(https://pbs.twimg.com/media/DWubndkWsAAVQyI.jpg)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 11:14:50 AM
Every Single Government Authority Failed In Parkland. And They Expect Americans To Forfeit Our Self-Defense Rights To Them? (https://www.dailywire.com/news/27491/every-single-government-authority-failed-parkland-ben-shapiro)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 12:27:59 PM
https://matzav.com/why-school-shootings-are-so-rare-in-israel-where-guns-are-such-a-common-sight/
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: gingyguy on February 23, 2018, 12:32:04 PM
can anyone explain to me how the sheriff can have the chutzpa to lay the blame on the FBI?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 12:33:55 PM
can anyone explain to me how the sheriff can have the chutzpa to lay the blame on the FBI?
Maybe he is taking a page out of you know whos book?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:07:39 PM
can anyone explain to me how the sheriff can have the chutzpa to lay the blame on the FBI?
The same way he was grandstanding against Rubio during CNN's attack the NRA session.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:08:18 PM
Maybe he is taking a page out of you know whos book?
Yeah I can see similarities between the 2.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:14:39 PM
https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-failure-of-law-enforcement-1519408337
The country is now engaged in a great debate over how to rewrite laws to prevent such horrific attacks in the future. But regardless of oneís proposed legislative solution, it will be useless if it is not faithfully and competently executed.

This column has long believed that the military, law enforcement and fire departments tend to work much better than other parts of government in part because of the exceptional people who choose to risk their lives for others and in part because, in contrast to the civil service, the consequences of failure are often catastrophic and immediate.

But in this case law enforcement didnít work. Identifying and addressing the reasons for this failure should be the first response of federal and local government officials.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: zale on February 23, 2018, 01:30:36 PM
https://www.vosizneias.com/292085/2018/02/22/lincoln-ne-first-national-bank-to-halt-production-of-nra-credit-card/

What did the NRA do to deserve this? Who did they shoot?

Leftists picked a scapegoat and corporations are kowtowing to appease them?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: mordechain on February 23, 2018, 01:32:42 PM
Culture change. Finally.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: moko on February 23, 2018, 01:33:28 PM
25 should be the min age to be able to purchase a gun. There are countless studies that the rational part of the brain is not fully developed until this age- we don't need people who cant make fully rationale decisions with access to firearms.
with that rationale 25 should be the min age for : smoking, drinking, military enlistment, driving,  medical consent, etc
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Sport on February 23, 2018, 01:35:44 PM
with that rationale 25 should be the min age for : smoking, drinking, military enlistment, driving,  medical consent, etc
Ok
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:37:19 PM
What did the NRA do to deserve this? Who did they shoot?

Leftists picked a scapegoat and corporations are kowtowing to appease them?
They are the main reason AR's are not banned. Agree or disagree about the ban but the fact is they are in the way.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 01:40:18 PM
Culture change. Finally.
You think so. I doubt it.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 01:45:55 PM
Anyone know the answer? Was there any information the FBI or local LE had that they could have used to arrested this individual on? Anything to confiscate his guns?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 02:00:29 PM
Anyone know the answer? Was there any information the FBI or local LE had that they could have used to arrested this individual on? Anything to confiscate his guns?
If not there should be.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 23, 2018, 02:02:07 PM
Anyone know the answer? Was there any information the FBI or local LE had that they could have used to arrested this individual on? Anything to confiscate his guns?
He appeared mentally disturbed, he should have been evaluated
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 02:11:36 PM
He appeared mentally disturbed, he should have been evaluated
I think the question was could have been done under current laws.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 02:12:36 PM
If not there should be.
He appeared mentally disturbed, he should have been evaluated
I agree but are we blaming the FBI when there is no existing law that would give them the power to arrest the individual?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 02:13:02 PM
I think the question was could have been done under current laws.
We have a winner!
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 23, 2018, 02:14:11 PM
I agree but are we blaming the FBI when there is no existing law that would give them the power to arrest the individual?
Not arrest, confiscate his guns. (and yes, being that he was mentally disturbed, he likely would've gotten one illegally, or launched a knife attack)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 02:43:58 PM
http://local21news.com/news/local/gun-lawscould-the-fbi-have-prevented-nikolas-cruz-from-buying-guns

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: yesitsme on February 23, 2018, 03:20:34 PM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: skyguy918 on February 23, 2018, 03:24:15 PM
Sure, as long as the NRA is for adopting the rest of Israel's gun laws.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: avromie7 on February 23, 2018, 03:28:33 PM
Sure, as long as the NRA is for adopting the rest of Israel's gun laws.
What do the other laws have to do with this? It's not like there have never been shooting attacks in Israel, this shows that having armed teachers can stop a shooting attack.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on February 23, 2018, 03:30:26 PM
What do the other laws have to do with this? It's not like there have never been shooting attacks in Israel, this shows that having armed teachers can stop a shooting attack.

I think we should let Rabbi Moskowitz answer this?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: skyguy918 on February 23, 2018, 03:43:08 PM
What do the other laws have to do with this? It's not like there have never been shooting attacks in Israel, this shows that having armed teachers can stop a shooting attack.
Those people that are armed in schools there go through a much higher standard of training than would ever happen in the US. That has to do with army service and their gun laws.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 03:45:34 PM
I think we should let Rabbi Moskowitz answer this?
Sure here you go.
What do the other laws have to do with this? It's not like there have never been shooting attacks in Israel, this shows that having armed teachers can stop a shooting attack.
You simply do not have the tools to understand everything just yet.
HT @aygart
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 03:48:40 PM
The is a reason the NRA doesn't bring up Israel's gun policy. Because overall it works and they don't want that here.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 23, 2018, 03:50:40 PM
Sure here you go.You simply do not have the tools to understand everything just yet.
HT @aygart

argue with arguments, not people.

Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 03:55:02 PM

Don't confuse arguments with trying to educate. I might have to bring back the "young grasshopper" line.  :)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 03:58:17 PM
...this shows that having armed teachers can stop a shooting attack.
Don't let facts get in the way of a good story line.
https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/school-shooting-in-central-israel-two-masked-gunmen-wound-teen-1.5803294
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 03:59:14 PM
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 04:03:24 PM
Can anyone that lives in Israel or familiar with their schools tell me if this is accurate? It paints a different picture why their schools are so safe.
https://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/why-school-shootings-are-so-rare-in-israel-where-guns-are-such-a-common-sight-1.513206
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 04:10:43 PM
Did anyone fact check this?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 04:13:02 PM
Can anyone that lives in Israel or familiar with their schools tell me if this is accurate? It paints a different picture why their schools are so safe.
https://www.stripes.com/news/middle-east/why-school-shootings-are-so-rare-in-israel-where-guns-are-such-a-common-sight-1.513206
I think that is very in line with what people here have been saying. There are two contributing factors. One is the extra security around schools to prevent terror attacks and the other is their gun laws. There may also be a cultural difference wth a greater feeling of camaraderie in a country in a constant state of war. It does seem that the security has mostly been enough since it has also prevented terror attacks and they don't follow laws. It has also prevented knife attacks.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 04:15:19 PM
Did anyone fact check this?
Isn't this article an Israeli fact checking claims made by US media?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 04:17:33 PM
Isn't this article an Israeli fact checking claims made by US media?
Not sure what it is but I am calling BS with the first Google search and I suck at searching.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 04:28:22 PM
Not sure what it is but I am calling BS with the first Google search and I suck at searching.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mercaz_HaRav_massacre
Wasn't that before the changes mentioned in that article?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 23, 2018, 04:30:03 PM


I suck at searching.

#oldpeopleproblems.
#TGIF
#PC
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 04:33:37 PM
Wasn't that before the changes mentioned in that article?
The tweet says since 1974 and this happened in 2008. What am I missing.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 04:34:58 PM

#oldpeopleproblems.
#TGIF
#PC
...argue with arguments, not people.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 23, 2018, 04:35:40 PM

:)
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 04:39:37 PM
The tweet says since 1974 and this happened in 2008. What am I missing.
Oh I didn't pay attention to the tweet but read the article. I see that the article also references that at the end as well. My guess is that they are not counting that as a school. Most Israelis would not. It is more of a religious seminary with post grade school students than a school.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 23, 2018, 04:42:38 PM
Oh I didn't pay attention to the tweet but read the article. I see that the article also references that at the end as well. My guess is that they are not counting that as a school. Most Israelis would not. It is more of a religious seminary with post grade school students than a school.
A Yeshiva is not a school?
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 23, 2018, 04:43:10 PM
A Yeshiva is not a school?
No
#PC
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 04:46:39 PM
A Yeshiva is not a school?
They definitely don't have the same security measures that the elementary schools have. I can tell you that from experience. They are not considering it a school.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 School Shooting, 17 Killed (Another mass shooting!)
Post by: aygart on February 23, 2018, 04:49:50 PM
https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw (https://www.cnn.com/2018/02/23/politics/parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies/index.html?sr=twCNNp022318parkland-school-shooting-broward-deputies0436PMStory&CNNPolitics=Tw)

Sources: Coral Springs police upset at some Broward deputies for not entering school

When Coral Springs police officers arrived at Marjory Stoneman Douglas High School in Parkland, Florida, on February 14 in the midst of the school shooting crisis, many officers were surprised to find not only that Broward County Sheriff's Deputy Scot Peterson, the armed school resource officer, had not entered the building, but that three other Broward County Sheriff's deputies were also outside the school and had not entered, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. The deputies had their pistols drawn and were behind their vehicles, the sources said, and not one of them had gone into the school.
...........
Some Coral Springs police were stunned and upset that the four original Broward County Sheriff's deputies who were first on the scene did not appear to join them as they entered the school, Coral Springs sources tell CNN. It's unclear whether the shooter was still in the building when they arrived.What these Coral Springs officers observed -- though not their feelings about it -- will be released in a report, likely next week. Sources cautioned that tapes are currently being reviewed and official accounts could ultimately differ from recollections of officers on the scene.

WOW. Should have known as soon as the elected sheriff started his grandstanding.
Title: Re: Parkland, FL 2/14/18 Scho