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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 12:00:31 PM

Title: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 12:00:31 PM
https://www.ou.org/torah/nach/a-journey-through-nach/introduction-trei-asar/
Quote
Chaggai was one of the last prophets; he was on the Beis Din of Ezra and was a member of the anshei kenesses hagdolah. Thus, he prophesied during a period after the destruction of the first Beis Hamikdash, when the people were in Bavel. He was a student of either Yechezkel or Baruch ben Neriah, and was a prophet in the days of Daryavesh, king of Persia.

ok, but...

Quote
According to the Rambam, Chaggai lived until the destruction of the second Beis Hamikdash.

He would have been 500+
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 12:04:54 PM
Please change title to “Torah verses that I don’t understand”
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 12:05:53 PM
I was taught and i believe it proper, that your title should read, things in the Torah I don't understand.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 12:06:48 PM
Please change title to “Torah verses that I don’t understand”
Beat me to it
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 12:09:39 PM
Please change title to “Torah verses that I don’t understand”

That would be relevant to something I dont understand, this doesnt make sense.. but go ahead and enlighten me
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 12:11:57 PM
Subscribing.  :)
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 12:12:20 PM
What part of it doesn't make sense?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 12:18:22 PM
I was taught and i believe it proper, that your title should read, things in the Torah I don't understand.

Stop trying to beat me in to the ground. The trey asar are not organized in chronological order for reasons. Chazal give reasons to everything.. and there are hundreds of opinions regarding everything.

That Navi Chaggai lived till the end of the second temple makes no sense. Daryavesh was 500 BCE.  The churban was 70 CE. So that would make Chaggai 600

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 12:21:12 PM
What part of it doesn't make sense?

A few things. The longevity.  Also why would he have lost his nevua? why is he not mentioned at all in the 2nd temple period ? If he was a talmud of baruch ben neriyah he was the chain of mesorah from moshe at sinai thus would have played an active role
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 12:21:31 PM
That would be relevant to something I dont understand, this doesnt make sense.. but go ahead and enlighten me
The difference between not understanding and something not making sense as it relates to Torah is the belief that the text is infallibly correct.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 12:24:13 PM
The difference between not understanding and something not making sense as it relates to Torah is the belief that the text is infallibly correct.

So find me an answer
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Boruch999 on February 25, 2018, 12:25:26 PM
So find me an answer
To what question?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 12:25:37 PM
And you cite to Rambam. Like everything he says, its his opinion. I'd  be quicker to argue with Rambam then say something in Torah doesnt make sense.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 12:31:54 PM
A few things. The longevity.  Also why would he have lost his nevua? why is he not mentioned at all in the 2nd temple period ? If he was a talmud of baruch ben neriyah he was the chain of mesorah from moshe at sinai thus would have played an active role
The only question about longevity is why. Nevua is not only based on the individual but on the generation as a whole. There are those who connect it to the weakening of the yetzer hora for avoda zara. Now would you have expected him to have been mentioned?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 12:33:00 PM
To what question?
I believe the question is how do we reconcile Rambam's opinion with the text that would indicate that Chaggai lived at the time of the first Beis Hamikdash. That is not a problem with the text that "doesn't make sense". That is a problem i reconciling one opinion with the text.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: cmey on February 25, 2018, 12:33:07 PM
No need to quote random web sites. Learn the authentic source- the mishna in yevamos Perek 1 mishna 5 and the meforshim and writings of the Jewish historians and you will see that this is dependent on how one understands the quote in the mishna, and is the subject of considerable discussion among the meforshim...
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 25, 2018, 12:49:57 PM
This thread is a living example of why yeshus is compared to A"Z.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 01:04:34 PM
No need to quote random web sites. Learn the authentic source- the mishna in yevamos Perek 1 mishna 5 and the meforshim and writings of the Jewish historians and you will see that this is dependent on how one understands the quote in the mishna, and is the subject of considerable discussion among the meforshim...

No need to throw out abstract sources, write a cohesive summery
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 01:10:09 PM
I am disgusted with the title of this thread. @chevron do you believe in the 13 Ikrim?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 01:16:01 PM
I am disgusted with the title of this thread. @chevron do you believe in the 13 Ikrim?

Either you can't read or I can't write.. I didn't say stuff in the Torah, I said Torah stuff... Shall we amend it to Judaic commentaries that don't make sense? 

I believe in god and that the Torah was redcived by Moshe from god at har Sinai. I also believe that Judaism demands questions and queries.

The inability to question Judaism and the Torah and demand explanations is a lack of faith... Faith is where I still believe even when I don't get the answers.

That, has nothing to do with my question on the rambam.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 01:19:59 PM
Shall we amend it to Judaic commentaries that don't make sense? 

Not a bad amendment, but that presumes that you understand everything and what they are saying makes no sense based on your understanding.

Torah "stuff" is also not optimal. How about "opinions", "shitas", "commentary(ies)" 
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 01:22:06 PM
That would be relevant to something I dont understand, this doesnt make sense.. but go ahead and enlighten me
Astronomy, most sciences, and accounting make no sense to me either. Because I don’t understand any of it.
Title: Re: Parts of Torah that I don't understand
Post by: ExGingi on February 25, 2018, 01:27:43 PM
Either you can't read or I can't write.. I didn't say stuff in the Torah, I said Torah stuff... Shall we amend it to Judaic commentaries that don't make sense? 

I believe in god and that the Torah was redcived by Moshe from god at har Sinai. I also believe that Judaism demands questions and queries.

The inability to question Judaism and the Torah and demand explanations is a lack of faith... Faith is where I still believe even when I don't get the answers.

That, has nothing to do with my question on the rambam.

How about not putting yourself at the immovable center of everything, but rather go back to your OP and edit the title to indicate that the problem is with your understanding, rather than with Torah.

You should also be aware of the following: http://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/hymym/3/6.htm

Title: Re: Parts of Torah that I don't understand
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 01:38:53 PM
How about not putting yourself at the immovable center of everything, but rather go back to your OP and edit the title to indicate that the problem is with your understanding, rather than with Torah.

You should also be aware of the following: http://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/hymym/3/6.htm


i still maintain that what the rambam wrote makes no sense, unless we argue that Haggai lived to be 600.

Why don't you focus on the question at hand rather than getting lost taking pot shots at me
Title: Re: Parts of Torah that I don't understand
Post by: ExGingi on February 25, 2018, 01:41:32 PM

i still maintain that what the rambam wrote makes no sense, unless we argue that Haggai lived to be 600.

Why don't you focus on the question at hand rather than getting lost taking pot shots at me

So you feel that putting yourself on par with the Rambam is OK, but suggesting that you make the title of the thread more appropriate for a believing Jew is "taking pot shots at [you]"?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: sky121 on February 25, 2018, 01:43:39 PM
How about not putting yourself at the immovable center of everything, but rather go back to your OP and edit the title to indicate that the problem is with your understanding, rather than with Torah.

You should also be aware of the following: http://chabadlibrary.org/books/admur/hymym/3/6.htm
I think it's safe to say we all understand that things may be our understanding and may seem to not make sense. I wouldn't focus on that aspect of how he worded things. It was already said that others thought the title should be changed. OP can choose to or not... I think we agree he was questioning the topics he brought up and wanted others to bring up ideas they too seem to not understand or maybe don't make sense to all us mortals. No need to harp on the title IMO. 
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 25, 2018, 01:44:10 PM
Astronomy, most sciences, and accounting make no sense to me either. Because I don’t understand any of it.
+1 I'm getting tiered of people on DDF posting their deep klotz kashes on many aspects of Torah and mesorah while being utterly clueless about the subject matter.
There's one guy who had the temerity to say he no longer believe in chazal because of his "questions", meanwhile he probably hasn't studied more than 25 pages of shas (and on a grade school level at that!). Pathetic.

OP apparently has the same machla, he reads some random books or blogs, (aka seforim chitzonim), then he has big klotz kashes, where things " don't make any sense", and sometimes should be totally "abolished".  All based on his finger nail deep immersive research..
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 01:55:38 PM
Astronomy, most sciences, and accounting make no sense to me either. Because I don’t understand any of it.
So that gives you no right to question it?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 02:01:29 PM
So that gives you no right to question it?
Ummm
Please change title to “Torah verses that I don’t understand”
OP can question away all he wants, but with a modicum of respect
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:01:49 PM
So that gives you no right to question it?
His point is there is a difference between, not understanding, and not making sense. It's the choice of words that's the problem, not the question.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 02:03:14 PM
So that gives you no right to question it?
Yes. But you can ask questions about it, not against it.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:04:13 PM
Yes. But you can ask questions about it, not against it.
+1
Maybe signature worthy
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 02:09:00 PM
His point is there is a difference between, not understanding, and not making sense. It's the choice of words that's the problem, not the question.
I fail to see the problem with not making sense. Isn't there things in all religions that don't make sense?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: mordechain on February 25, 2018, 02:09:19 PM
Keep learning. When you reach mesushelach's years you'll בע"ה understand.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:09:39 PM
I fail to see the problem with not making sense. Isn't there things in all religions that don't make sense?
If it doesn't make sense to you, you don't understand it.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 02:12:03 PM
Yes. But you can ask questions about it, not against it.
I don't want to be accused of you know what so I will ask it this way. For me that would mean I have to accept everything in the Bible as true?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Yehuda57 on February 25, 2018, 02:15:53 PM
I think it's safe to say we all understand that things may be our understanding and may seem to not make sense. I wouldn't focus on that aspect of how he worded things. It was already said that others thought the title should be changed. OP can choose to or not... I think we agree he was questioning the topics he brought up and wanted others to bring up ideas they too seem to not understand or maybe don't make sense to all us mortals. No need to harp on the title IMO.
It's not a matter on harping on a title. It's a matter of the framing of the discussion.

Is this a thread for someone with questions he's genuinely looking to find an answer for or someone looking to post things which make no sense, perhaps for the purposes of being argumentative, feeling intellectually superior or just smugness.

For the former, there's a reason for anyone to take the time to respond. For the latter, answering is like posting in the gun control or politics threads, or screaming loudly in an empty room.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 02:18:31 PM
I don't want to be accused of you know what so I will ask it this way. For me that would mean I have to accept everything in the Bible as true?
More than true. The Word of G-d.

It is ironic that the OP was questioning an opinion of Rambam which, based on OP's understanding, made no sense, when Rambam is the one who set for the standard for belief in it being the Word of G-d, as written.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 02:19:24 PM
If it doesn't make sense to you, you don't understand it.
Isn't that something a gullible would say?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ben89 on February 25, 2018, 02:21:55 PM
Isn't that something a gullible would say?
its כפירה if you actually think otherwise. I hope your being sarcastic
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 02:24:03 PM
its כפירה if you actually think otherwise. I hope your being sarcastic
It was made as general comment.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:24:52 PM
Isn't that something a gullible would say?
sounds it. But if it can be explained, it's not the case. There is a limit of what I can explain, but @aygart can explain plenty more, and there are those out there who can understand and explain more then him
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 02:25:39 PM
Isn't that something a gullible would say?
I think it would better said as "If you can't explain it, you don't understand it".
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: etech0 on February 25, 2018, 02:29:37 PM
Yes. But you can ask questions about it, not against it.
That's why we first say "ein keilokeinu" and only then, once we've established that, do we ask "mi keilokeinu?"
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 02:30:52 PM
That's why we first say "ein keilokeinu" and only then, once we've established that, do we ask "mi keilokeinu?"
Wow never thought of that. Thanks for the insight
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:31:16 PM
That's why we first say "ein keilokeinu" and only then, once we've established that, do we ask "mi keilokeinu?"
Interesting. Is that your own thought? I've never heard that.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: etech0 on February 25, 2018, 02:33:17 PM
Interesting. Is that your own thought? I've never heard that.
Not my own but I don't remember the source.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:34:16 PM
Not my own but I don't remember the source.

Wow never thought of that. Thanks for the insight

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: cmey on February 25, 2018, 02:35:04 PM
No need to throw out abstract sources, write a cohesive summery

Sorry, was on the run before and misquoted. It’s the yerushalmi yevamos 1:6 and the Bavli 16a
בימי רבי דוסא בן הרכינס הותרה צרת הבת לאחין שמע מינה עשו שמע מינה גופא בימי רבי דוסא בן הרכינס התירו צרת הבת לאחין והיה הדבר קשה לחכמים מפני שחכם גדול היה ועיניו קמו מלבא לבית המדרש (אמר ומי ילך) ויודיעו אמר להן רבי יהושע אני אלך ואחריו מי רבי אלעזר בן עזריה ואחריו מי ר''ע הלכו ועמדו על פתח ביתו נכנסה שפחתו אמרה לו רבי חכמי ישראל באין אצלך אמר לה יכנסו ונכנסו תפסו לרבי יהושע והושיבהו על מטה של זהב א''ל רבי אמור לתלמידך אחר וישב אמר לו מי הוא רבי אלעזר בן עזריה אמר ויש לו בן לעזריה חבירנו קרא עליו המקרא הזה {תהילים לז-כה} נער הייתי גם זקנתי ולא ראיתי צדיק נעזב וזרעו מבקש לחם תפסו והושיבו על מטה של זהב א''ל רבי אמור לתלמידך אחר וישב א''ל ומי הוא עקיבא בן יוסף א''ל אתה הוא עקיבא בן יוסף ששמך הולך מסוף העולם ועד סופו שב בני שב כמותך ירבו בישראל התחילו מסבבים אותו בהלכות עד שהגיעו לצרת הבת אמרו ליה צרת הבת מהו אמר להן מחלוקת בית שמאי ובית הלל הלכה כדברי מי אמר להן הלכה כבית הלל אמרו ליה והלא משמך אמרו הלכה כבית שמאי אמר להם דוסא שמעתם או בן הרכינס שמעתם אמרו ליה חיי רבי סתם שמענו אמר להם אח קטן יש לי בכור שטן הוא ויונתן שמו והוא מתלמידי שמאי והזהרו שלא יקפח אתכם בהלכות לפי שיש עמו שלש מאות תשובות בצרת הבת שהיא מותרת אבל מעיד אני עלי שמים וארץ שעל מדוכה זו ישב חגי הנביא ואמר שלשה דברים צרת הבת אסורה עמון ומואב מעשרין מעשר עני בשביעית ומקבלים גרים מן הקרדויין ומן התרמודים

I’m not going to do all the work for you! See the maharsha there, sefer hayuchsin maamar aleph os daled, Seder hadoros tana’im v’amoraim R Dosa Ben Hurkenus, Chazon Ish yadayim siman 9 os vav etc.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: cmey on February 25, 2018, 02:36:56 PM
Not my own but I don't remember the source.

Story with Rav Shmuel salant
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 02:38:43 PM
Story with Rav Shmuel salant
Please share.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 02:39:46 PM
Would this be correct? You can question things for the purpose of understanding why they are true but not question if they are true?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 02:43:31 PM
Would this be correct? You can question things for the purpose of understanding why they are true but not question if they are true?
Depends on what the question is.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 02:45:58 PM
Depends on what the question is.
Something in the Torah for you and the Bible for me.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: etech0 on February 25, 2018, 02:50:23 PM
Please share.
+1
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 02:58:22 PM
Something in the Torah for you and the Bible for me.
There is no simple answer, depends on the context and many other things.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ExGingi on February 25, 2018, 03:05:46 PM
Something in the Torah for you and the Bible for me.
If it is part of Torah, then it is true (and Torah extends beyond the Pentateuch or even the 24 books).

Sometimes, a part of Torah is written in a way that is not to be understood literally, and sometimes seemingly contradicting facts might be true despite the seeming contradiction.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 03:10:01 PM
If it is part of Torah, then it is true (and Torah extends beyond the Pentateuch or even the 24 books).

Sometimes, a part of Torah is written in a way that is not to be understood literally, and sometimes seemingly contradicting facts might be true despite the seeming contradiction.
Thank you. The Torah is the word of G-d written by man?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 03:10:23 PM
Halevai only @ChaimMoskowitz understands.

The question was not philosophical or theological..it simply doesnt make sense. For reasons that abound. thanks @cmey i'll look that up.

Regarding how I phase my statements is y business, you could be more open minded and engage @TimT  @Mordyk

I got into this discussion because inyan has an article about Rav Yakov Sapir, in which he says he entered the cairo geniza and found supposedly the sefer tora of ezra hasofer. Which is confusing because no later visitors mention it
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 03:19:12 PM

I got into this discussion because inyan has an article about Rav Yakov Sapir, in which he says he entered the cairo geniza and found supposedly the sefer tora of ezra hasofer. Which is confusing because no later visitors mention it

So your question was based on a poorly researched, poorly written, puff piece?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 03:23:09 PM
Regarding how I phase my statements is y business, you could be more open minded and engage @TimT  @Mordyk
It is the business of anyone who would respond as to whether they want to participate in a conversation based on that premise and they are saying that they don't want to. It is somewhat ridiculous to have read the entirety of one paragraph which wasn't even meant to be anything more than a cursory overview as a preface to more extensive study and claim that anything makes no sense. Of course you don't understand t. You didn't study the topic!
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 03:30:23 PM
It is the business of anyone who would respond as to whether they want to participate in a conversation based on that premise and they are saying that they don't want to. It is somewhat ridiculous to have read the entirety of one paragraph which wasn't even meant to be anything more than a cursory overview as a preface to more extensive study and claim that anything makes no sense. Of course you don't understand t. You didn't study the topic!
Repost?
But your understanding of it is not. You simply do not have the tools to understand everything just yet.


Just like there are aspects about Judaism which CM can't fully understand and there are aspects of Catholicism that you and I cannot understand, so to there are aspects of parenting which you cannot understand and there are aspects of growing up today that I cannot understand. Face teh reality of it.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 03:31:34 PM
Halevai only @ChaimMoskowitz understands.

Don’t compare yourself to CM, CM asks with respect. He admits he doesn’t know. He wants to understand.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: cmey on February 25, 2018, 03:38:29 PM
Please share.
Actually Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld:

רבי יוסף חיים זוננפלד נהג לרקוד בשמחת תורה יחד עם מאות ילדים, אחד ממאות ילדים שזכו לרקוד עם רבי יוסף חיים ב"הקפות של הילדים" - היה הילד אברהם ברגמן שסיפר בסוף ימיו את המעשה הבא: שנה אחת, לאחר שסיים רבי יוסף חיים לומר את "אין כאלוקינו", ניגש אליו אברמל'ה הקטן, הביט ברב בעינים ביישניות, ואמר בקול שקט: - רבי, יש לי קושיא חמורה על הסידור...

הביט בו רבה של ירושלים ברוך, בפניו המאירות השתקפה היטב אהבתו העצומה לילדי ישראל. ליטף את לחיו של הילד, "שאל בני היקר" - אמר בעדינות. - מדוע, רבי, אנו אומרים קודם "אין כאלוקינו, אין כאדונינו" ואחר כך שואלים "מי כאלוקינו? ומי כאדונינו?" והלא הסדר צריך להיות הפוך שהרי קודם כל שואלים ואחר כך משיבים?... "נבון אתה", חייך הרב "בתשובה, אמשול לך משל נחמד":

"מכיר אתה ודאי את "מערת צדקיהו" שע"י שער שכם"? הילד הנהן בראשו, והרב המשיך: ברחבי העולם, ודאי ידוע לך, קיימות מערות נוספות, ישנן מערות קצרות וישנן ארוכות יותר, יש גם מערות ענקיות. ברור כי אין אור השמש יכול לחדור אל תוך המערות ועל כן שוררת שם תמיד חשיכה מוחלטת. מה יעשה אדם הרוצה להלך במערה ולצאת ממנה לאחר מכן, כיצד ידע את הדרך חזרה?

"אדם פיקח, המשיך הרב, עושה לו סימנים בדרכו: כאן יש אבן גדולה, ובפינה זו יש עמוד יצוק בקרקע וכדו' לכשירצה אותו פיקח לצאת מן המערה, יחזור על פי הסימנים ולא יטעה בדרכו.

שוטה, לעומת זאת, אינו חושב על המחר, ואינו שם לבו לעתיד. נכנס הוא במהירות, אינו משגיח, ואינו קובע לעצמו סימנים, ועל כן סביר להניח שיטעה מן הדרך הישרה, חזקה עליו שיאבד את שבילי דרך המלך. ואכן כבר אירע לא אחת שאנשים שלא קבעו סימנים, איבדו את דרכם ומתו ברעב!

יוצא, אם כן, שהסימנים שהאדם קובע בדרכו הם הבטחונות שבידי האדם השומרים עליו שיוכל לחזור בדרך הסלולה והישרה, ולא יטעה, חלילה, בדרכו. "גם עלינו", הסביר הרב בלהט, "לעשות לנו סימנים כדי שלא נתעה בדרכי החיים, ובכדי שלא נאבד את הדרך הסלולה לנו מדור לדור. ועל כן קודם כל אנו מכריזים: "אין כאלוקינו" וזהו סימן אחד! ואחר כך "אין כאדונינו" וזהו סימן שני! כעת, לאחר שסיימנו לקבוע לנו את הסימנים אפשר לצאת לדרך ולשאול: "מי כאלוקינו", "מי כאדונינו". שאלות מסוג זה לרוב מסוכנות המה, אך לאחר שהסימנים הראשונים בידינו, איננו צריכים לחשוש - אנו בדרך הנכונה, הישרה - דרך המלך!". כי כבר הסכמנו "שאין כאלוקינו" וגם אם נחקור "מי כאלוקינו" ועדיין ישארו לנו קושיות זה לא מה שיפריע לנו לצאת ממערת חושך הגלות כי האמונה מושרשת לנו מהשורש "שאין כאלוקינו ואין כאדונינו" וכבר אמר שלמה המלך "אחרית טובה יונקת מראשית טובה" ולכן הראשית שלנו זה אמונה "אין כאלוקינו" וגם אם בדרך יהיו מכשולים של חושך הגלות האחרית תישאר טובה. כי האמונה משורשת לכתחילה וכל מה שלא מובן אנחנו תולים בהגבלת שיכלנו הגס והקטן.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Sport on February 25, 2018, 03:40:27 PM
Would this be correct? You can question things for the purpose of understanding why they are true but not question if they are true?
You can question if something is true, but in order to do so you must have a great deal of knowledge on the topic. Like @timt s post, it would be ludicrous for some non college educated guy to disagree with a doctors recommendations, based on years of research, to get vaccinated. He can question why, and try with his limited knowledge, to understand the subject at hand, but to have an opinion on the veracity of vaccination is misguided at best.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 03:42:16 PM
Actually Rav Yosef Chaim Sonnenfeld:

רבי יוסף חיים זוננפלד נהג לרקוד בשמחת תורה יחד עם מאות ילדים, אחד ממאות ילדים שזכו לרקוד עם רבי יוסף חיים ב"הקפות של הילדים" - היה הילד אברהם ברגמן שסיפר בסוף ימיו את המעשה הבא: שנה אחת, לאחר שסיים רבי יוסף חיים לומר את "אין כאלוקינו", ניגש אליו אברמל'ה הקטן, הביט ברב בעינים ביישניות, ואמר בקול שקט: - רבי, יש לי קושיא חמורה על הסידור...

הביט בו רבה של ירושלים ברוך, בפניו המאירות השתקפה היטב אהבתו העצומה לילדי ישראל. ליטף את לחיו של הילד, "שאל בני היקר" - אמר בעדינות. - מדוע, רבי, אנו אומרים קודם "אין כאלוקינו, אין כאדונינו" ואחר כך שואלים "מי כאלוקינו? ומי כאדונינו?" והלא הסדר צריך להיות הפוך שהרי קודם כל שואלים ואחר כך משיבים?... "נבון אתה", חייך הרב "בתשובה, אמשול לך משל נחמד":

"מכיר אתה ודאי את "מערת צדקיהו" שע"י שער שכם"? הילד הנהן בראשו, והרב המשיך: ברחבי העולם, ודאי ידוע לך, קיימות מערות נוספות, ישנן מערות קצרות וישנן ארוכות יותר, יש גם מערות ענקיות. ברור כי אין אור השמש יכול לחדור אל תוך המערות ועל כן שוררת שם תמיד חשיכה מוחלטת. מה יעשה אדם הרוצה להלך במערה ולצאת ממנה לאחר מכן, כיצד ידע את הדרך חזרה?

"אדם פיקח, המשיך הרב, עושה לו סימנים בדרכו: כאן יש אבן גדולה, ובפינה זו יש עמוד יצוק בקרקע וכדו' לכשירצה אותו פיקח לצאת מן המערה, יחזור על פי הסימנים ולא יטעה בדרכו.

שוטה, לעומת זאת, אינו חושב על המחר, ואינו שם לבו לעתיד. נכנס הוא במהירות, אינו משגיח, ואינו קובע לעצמו סימנים, ועל כן סביר להניח שיטעה מן הדרך הישרה, חזקה עליו שיאבד את שבילי דרך המלך. ואכן כבר אירע לא אחת שאנשים שלא קבעו סימנים, איבדו את דרכם ומתו ברעב!

יוצא, אם כן, שהסימנים שהאדם קובע בדרכו הם הבטחונות שבידי האדם השומרים עליו שיוכל לחזור בדרך הסלולה והישרה, ולא יטעה, חלילה, בדרכו. "גם עלינו", הסביר הרב בלהט, "לעשות לנו סימנים כדי שלא נתעה בדרכי החיים, ובכדי שלא נאבד את הדרך הסלולה לנו מדור לדור. ועל כן קודם כל אנו מכריזים: "אין כאלוקינו" וזהו סימן אחד! ואחר כך "אין כאדונינו" וזהו סימן שני! כעת, לאחר שסיימנו לקבוע לנו את הסימנים אפשר לצאת לדרך ולשאול: "מי כאלוקינו", "מי כאדונינו". שאלות מסוג זה לרוב מסוכנות המה, אך לאחר שהסימנים הראשונים בידינו, איננו צריכים לחשוש - אנו בדרך הנכונה, הישרה - דרך המלך!". כי כבר הסכמנו "שאין כאלוקינו" וגם אם נחקור "מי כאלוקינו" ועדיין ישארו לנו קושיות זה לא מה שיפריע לנו לצאת ממערת חושך הגלות כי האמונה מושרשת לנו מהשורש "שאין כאלוקינו ואין כאדונינו" וכבר אמר שלמה המלך "אחרית טובה יונקת מראשית טובה" ולכן הראשית שלנו זה אמונה "אין כאלוקינו" וגם אם בדרך יהיו מכשולים של חושך הגלות האחרית תישאר טובה. כי האמונה משורשת לכתחילה וכל מה שלא מובן אנחנו תולים בהגבלת שיכלנו הגס והקטן.
Thanks!
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 03:43:38 PM


You can question if something is true, but in order to debunk it, you must have a great deal of knowledge on the topic.

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 03:55:03 PM
Repost?


Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 04:06:26 PM
So thats what this meant...

Just stop. Grow up.

Ummmm
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 25, 2018, 04:09:22 PM
*facepalm*
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 04:14:30 PM
So thats what this meant...

I really don't get what you are trying to say.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 04:17:19 PM
I really don't get what you are trying to say.
Its ok, it got the response i was expecting. Thank you for playing.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 04:18:25 PM
Its ok, it got the response i was expecting. Thank you for playing.
if you say so
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: BP16 on February 25, 2018, 04:37:33 PM
Thank you. The Torah is the word of G-d written by man?
Yes Written My Moshe
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 04:40:44 PM
Yes Written My Moshe
This is my issue with all religions. It is the word of G-d but travels thru man to the rest of us. Man is corrupt so that is a big problem.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: BP16 on February 25, 2018, 04:43:49 PM
This is my issue with all religions. It is the word of G-d but travels thru man to the rest of us. Man is corrupt so that is a big problem.
This is what is said on a daily!

 I believe with complete faith that the whole Torah which we now possess was given to Moses, our teacher, peace unto him.

I believe with complete faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will be no other Torah given by the Creator, blessed be His name.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: BP16 on February 25, 2018, 04:47:02 PM
This is my issue with all religions. It is the word of G-d but travels thru man to the rest of us. Man is corrupt so that is a big problem.
And an entire nation heard at Mount Sinai how G-D spoke to them, but they asked if Moshe could read the rest...........
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 04:49:29 PM
This is what is said on a daily!

 I believe with complete faith that the whole Torah which we now possess was given to Moses, our teacher, peace unto him.

I believe with complete faith that this Torah will not be changed, and that there will be no other Torah given by the Creator, blessed be His name.
Thank you.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 04:50:34 PM
And an entire nation heard at Mount Sinai how G-D spoke to them, but they asked if Moshe could read the rest...........
...I will leave this one alone.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 04:53:14 PM
This is my issue with all religions. It is the word of G-d but travels thru man to the rest of us. Man is corrupt so that is a big problem.
And therein lies the faith aspect of religion. Otherwise, "a little birdie told me to write this", would be (and in fact is) the foundation of soem religions.

The way it was explained to me when i asked the question was as follows: Us Jews celebrate the holidays because our parents celebrated them back to time immemorial. Our parents are not liars so we inherently believe that they received this tradition going back to its origin. Therefore, the biblical narrative must be true.

If that is the case then we celebrate Shavuos, which memorializes the receipt of the Torah at Sinai. So part of the narrative that Moses ascended to Heaven and came down with the Tablets is fact. Then what part of Judaism requires faith?

The part that has him writing down everything else besides what he came down with.

Its oversimplified but I hope it helps.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 04:55:46 PM
...I will leave this one alone.
smart man!
OP could learn from you
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 04:55:58 PM
The responses by many of you highlight a flawed understand of Judaism and Torah.

Exgingy sends me a hayom yom assuming I would care.. And that didn't answer nor address the question.. To quote Rabbi Eily Smith "you either believe in nevuah or you don't.

What silly stupid attacks.. My brother doesn't always agree with me but he doesn't bash me, he also requests my feedback for his publications.


in Paul Johnson history of the Jew's, he Puts daniel as a historian in the macabee era. Which spawned the comment above.

You need to get rid of your morally superior attitude, also just because you don't like someone's question is no license to bash them.


finally, this didn't question if question if the Torah was accurate about metzushelach life span, I merely said it didnt make sense that chaggai lived 600 years as per the rambam.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 04:57:13 PM
OP could learn from you


No, I won't be intimidated by your bully tactics which are effectively a disgrace to Torah.


Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 04:58:43 PM

No, I won't be intimidated by your bully tactics which are effectively a disgrace to Torah.
OP can question away all he wants, but with a modicum of respect
BTW I’m not the one bashing klal yisroel & disrespecting torah/halacha all the time. That’s somebody else
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:02:43 PM
It is the business of anyone who would respond as to whether they want to participate in a conversation based on that premise and they are saying that they don't want to. It is somewhat ridiculous to have read the entirety of one paragraph which wasn't even meant to be anything more than a cursory overview as a preface to more extensive study and claim that anything makes no sense. Of course you don't understand t. You didn't study the topic!

I still stand by what I wrote. I'm happy to to make sense of it. But I'm not switching it to I don't understand.

That would imply that an answer was given and I don't understand the answer

Lots of stuff don't make any sense. The tanaaim and amoraim argue with each other constantly and call each other liars effectively
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:03:58 PM
BTW I’m not the one bashing klal yisroel & disrespecting torah/halacha all the time. That’s somebody else

No, you're just engaged in lashon hara and slander against me.. I don't do any of those things.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: gingyguy on February 25, 2018, 05:04:49 PM
BTW I’m not the one bashing klal yisroel & disrespecting torah/halacha all the time. That’s somebody else
glad you pointed that out :)
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 05:06:18 PM

in Paul Johnson history of the Jew's, he Puts daniel as a historian in the macabee era. Which spawned the comment above.

I bought and read a good part of that book based on the recommendations of Rabbi Wein who states that the book has value, but not all of it. Rabbi Wein discounts most of the pre-biblical part of the book.

And again, you dont understand the Torah because a historian wrote something? If that is the case we are dealing with Bible criticism here and lets be clear and honest about that. Most here dont want to engage in any discussion. Go find DovBear in a google search and you will be in good company.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:06:48 PM
I'm engaged in constructive criticism and questioning what either makes no sense or I don't understand.

Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 05:08:36 PM
The tanaaim and amoraim argue with each other constantly and call each other liars effectively
Please show me where.

Thing only don't make sense as long as they are not explained. As soon as it is explained you will understand. So it does make sense just you dont understand it yet.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 05:09:08 PM
I'm engaged in constructive criticism and questioning what either makes no sense or I don't understand.
Who died and left you in charge, so to speak. Constructive or not it is still bible criticism.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: gingyguy on February 25, 2018, 05:10:48 PM
I'm engaged in constructive criticism and questioning what either makes no sense or I don't understand.
im not sure what it means to be engaged in constructive criticism of the torah. seems like along the way that if i would have written it it would have been much better
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:11:35 PM
I bought and read a good part of that book based on the recommendations of Rabbi Wein who states that the book has value, but not all of it. Rabbi Wein discounts most of the pre-biblical part of the book.

And again, you dont understand the Torah because a historian wrote something? If that is the case we are dealing with Bible criticism here and lets be clear and honest about that. Most here dont want to engage in any discussion. Go find DovBear in a google search and you will be in good company.

What in god's good name are you talking about?!?  Where did I engage in biblical criticism?!?!?

I said I discussed the subject iwith rabbi Eily Smith and he said "either you believe in nevua, or you dont"

My question Was about something the rambam wrote.. I'm entitled to say it doesn't make sense.  You can try to help me make sense of it or you can bash me, I don't care
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 05:12:50 PM
What in god's good name are you talking about?!?  Where did I engage in biblical criticism?!?!?

I said I discussed the subject iwith rabbi Eily Smith and he said "either you believe in nevua, or you dont"

My question Was about something the rambam wrote.. I'm entitled to say it doesn't make sense.  You can try to help me make sense of it or you can bash me, I don't care

One question Mr. confused, Once it is explain to you will it make sense?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 05:17:16 PM
No, you're just engaged in lashon hara and slander against me.. I don't do any of those things.
You do it all the time. I’m being moicha. You wanna take potshots on others ? Don’t cry when others respond in kind. Or just take all this as “constructive criticism “
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:17:37 PM
BTW I’m not the one bashing klal yisroel & disrespecting torah/halacha all the time. That’s somebody else

Ugh I didn't say I was involved in constructive biblical criticism. I meant to quote that. I meant constructive criticism of klal yisrael.

Well I tried the berditchiver route. . Till the talking in shull got too much.

Oh yeah I'm still bitter I got yanked out of school and sent home middle of the day because my parents were behind oonon tttuition... Chinuch Al taharas hhakodesh eh.


I'm entitled to criticize wrongs just as much as the next guy. But I'm not a failed Messiah douche blogger. God and Judaism didn't fail me.. I'm just picking at the flaws of the system and humanity.


Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 05:19:24 PM
I'm just picking at the flaws of the system and humanity.
Please explain system....

I'm entitled to say it doesn't make sense.
No you are not little guy, Your entitled to say I dont understand the Rambam.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 05:20:10 PM
What in god's good name are you talking about?!?  Where did I engage in biblical criticism?!?!?

I said I discussed the subject iwith rabbi Eily Smith and he said "either you believe in nevua, or you dont"

My question Was about something the rambam wrote.. I'm entitled to say it doesn't make sense.  You can try to help me make sense of it or you can bash me, I don't care
The title of the thread. And you brought up Johnson to prove what point? Who is this Rabbi Smith? Who is he to say you believe in nevuah or not?  Again, youre taking what the Rambam said at fave value but ignoring another one of the ikrim. Its amazing, 3 out of 13 so far. Keep this up and we may knock out all of them before the day is up and still have the original question, based on...the Rambam's opinion.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:20:25 PM
You do it all the time. I’m being moicha. You wanna take potshots on others ? Don’t cry when others respond in kind. Or just take all this as “constructive criticism “

No, I actually held my peace. I didn't even mention the busha and hurt I suffered from what this yeshiva did to me 25 years ago.. Only brought it up with the recent suicide case.

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: TimT on February 25, 2018, 05:24:51 PM
But I'm not a failed Messiah douche blogger.
Thanks for pointing that out. Was beginning to wonder
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: gingyguy on February 25, 2018, 05:27:09 PM
i think you should rename all the threads you started problems with judaism #1 , #2  #3 etc. etc. 
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:27:39 PM
The title of the thread. And you brought up Johnson to prove what point? Who is this Rabbi Smith? Who is he to say you believe in nevuah or not?  Again, youre taking what the Rambam said at fave value but ignoring another one of the ikrim. Its amazing, 3 out of 13 so far. Keep this up and we may knock out all of them before the day is up and still have the original question, based on...the Rambam's opinion.

I don't even know why you aarare repeatedly being hostile. I never said or implied any of that.

First off rabbi Eily Smith is a respected rabbi and Dayan in Miami.

Second off, I brought up Johnson because he indicates that based on what Daniel wrote, it would make him having lived in macabbee times, so what?  I never said I don't believe in nevua. I asked his opinion and he said what I wrote.. I.e. if you believe in nevua, its not trouble to understand and accept it.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:29:20 PM
Please explain system....
No you are not little guy, Your entitled to say I dont understand the Rambam.

No I'm entitled to say it doesn't make sense.  It could as well indicate that the ou made a typo.

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 05:30:46 PM
I don't even know why you aarare repeatedly being hostile. I never said or implied any of that.

First off rabbi Eily Smith is a respected rabbi and Dayan in Miami.

Second off, I brought up Johnson because he indicates that based on what Daniel wrote, it would make him having lived in macabbee times, so what?  I never said I don't believe in nevua. I asked his opinion and he said what I wrote.. I.e. if you believe in nevua, its not trouble to understand and accept it.
That explains some of this. If your source of information leaves open the possibility to deny one of the ikrim then we get the language used to begin this thread.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Jellybelly on February 25, 2018, 05:33:48 PM
No, you're just engaged in lashon hara and slander against me.. I don't do any of those things.
I’m quickly reading thru this thread and I’m not so sure there is an issue of lashon hara and slander against you, but I’m not a poisek
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 05:36:24 PM
i think you should rename all the threads you started problems with judaism #1 , #2  #3 etc. etc.
That would be extremely helpful for me.  :)
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: yakov116 on February 25, 2018, 05:41:43 PM
No I'm entitled to say it doesn't make sense.  It could as well indicate that the ou made a typo.


You are not, because you do not have enough knowledge in the field.
You also fail to answer a simple question of mine

One question Mr. confused, Once it is explained to you will it make sense?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:47:45 PM
That explains some of this. If your source of information leaves open the possibility to deny one of the ikrim then we get the language used to begin this thread.

I have no idea how you got that. And with all the hard time you give me, you slander a noted dayan? 

I stated very clearly what his reply was. Use your intellect to process it.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:49:27 PM
You are not, because you do not have enough knowledge in the field.
You also fail to answer a simple question of mine

I can still say it doesn't make sense.

Rambam says in the intro that Chaggai was part of the Anshei Knesset HaGedolah and that the last surviving member was Shimon HaTzadik (not Chaggai)
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 05:50:20 PM
That would be extremely helpful for me.  :)

Maybe you want to switch user names so we can confuse them?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 05:55:43 PM
Maybe you want to switch user names so we can confuse them?
I think that has a lot do with what goes on around here.  :)
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 05:59:26 PM
That would be extremely helpful for me.  :)
http://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?action=profile;area=showposts;sa=topics;u=16978
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: cmey on February 25, 2018, 05:59:32 PM
The Gemara clearly states that Rabbi Pereidah lived 400 years. You may want to take issue with the Gemara as well. And since we are close to Purim, Rashi says that Mordechai was on the Sanhedrin during the first Bais Hamikdash, was in the story of Purim, and was still a leader of Klal Yisrael during the seige of Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, during Rome’s ascendency when he would be well over 400 years old...
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 06:00:55 PM
Guys, why are you even participating here?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 06:01:40 PM
Guys, why are you even participating here?
I learned a couple of things.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: smart man on February 25, 2018, 06:03:33 PM
Can we get this thread deleted? Do I really have to read borderline kfira on ddf?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 25, 2018, 06:09:39 PM
I learned a couple of things.
You need to unlearn what you have learned. There is very little if anything at all here in way of real information.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 06:09:57 PM
I can still say it doesn't make sense.

Rambam says in the intro that Chaggai was part of the Anshei Knesset HaGedolah and that the last surviving member was Shimon HaTzadik (not Chaggai)
For the hundredth time, you have an issue with what Rambam says.

1. You would like to understand what he says.
2. In your mind such a statement does not make sense based on your life experience and knowledge of how long people generally live.
3. You translate your minds inability to reconcile what your experience is, with what Rambam says, into a statement about Torah "stuff" that doesnt make sense.
4. That statement is patently offensive to any bnei torah.
5. You are lectured about the inappropriateness of the statement based on you conflating your inability to make sense, with your inability to understand.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ExGingi on February 25, 2018, 06:20:38 PM
@chevron You say:

First off rabbi Eily Smith is a respected rabbi and Dayan in Miami.

Yet you also write:
To quote Rabbi Eily Smith "you either believe in nevuah or you don't.

Which (IINM) most around here would find an extremely problematic statement. So you might be the one engaged in Loshon Hora here (against Rabbi Smith).

In any event, I think you should find a way to read comments, even those responding, arguing or refuting your statements, and not take them as attacks.

So let's try to simplify your issue/question in your OP: When it is stated that someone lived a few hundred years, does it not make sense to you? Why? Is it in all cases? Only after a certain period? What length of lifespan is it that starts to become "it doesn't make sense" (which sounds like a blanket statement as if there's a problem with the statement of fact) versus "I can't understand it" (which is a personal questioning of the stated facts which seem to contradict your understandings otherwise)?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Mordyk on February 25, 2018, 06:24:55 PM
Halevai only @ChaimMoskowitz understands.

The question was not philosophical or theological..it simply doesnt make sense. For reasons that abound. thanks @cmey i'll look that up.

Regarding how I phase my statements is y business, you could be more open minded and engage @TimT  @Mordyk

I got into this discussion because inyan has an article about Rav Yakov Sapir, in which he says he entered the cairo geniza and found supposedly the sefer tora of ezra hasofer. Which is confusing because no later visitors mention it
Why was i quoted here?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ben89 on February 25, 2018, 06:43:26 PM
Lots of stuff don't make any sense. The tanaaim and amoraim argue with each other constantly and call each other liars effectively
are you implying that you are on the level of the tanaaim or amoraim?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 06:44:32 PM
The Gemara clearly states that Rabbi Pereidah lived 400 years. You may want to take issue with the Gemara as well. And since we are close to Purim, Rashi says that Mordechai was on the Sanhedrin during the first Bais Hamikdash, was in the story of Purim, and was still a leader of Klal Yisrael during the seige of Hyrcanus and Aristobulus, during Rome’s ascendency when he would be well over 400 years old...

Yes modchai's age was discussed. My issue with chaggai is not as much age but what I wrote earlier, Rambam says shimon hatzadik was the last of anshei keneses hagedola
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 06:45:36 PM
are you implying that you are on the level of the tanaaim or amoraim?

Did you stop beating your wife ?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 06:47:34 PM
@chevron You say:

Yet you also write:
Which (IINM) most around here would find an extremely problematic statement. So you might be the one engaged in Loshon Hora here (against Rabbi Smith).

In any event, I think you should find a way to read comments, even those responding, arguing or refuting your statements, and not take them as attacks.

So let's try to simplify your issue/question in your OP: When it is stated that someone lived a few hundred years, does it not make sense to you? Why? Is it in all cases? Only after a certain period? What length of lifespan is it that starts to become "it doesn't make sense" (which sounds like a blanket statement as if there's a problem with the statement of fact) versus "I can't understand it" (which is a personal questioning of the stated facts which seem to contradict your understandings otherwise)?

Yes "you" i.e. ME... his response was, either I believe in nevua or I dont.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ben89 on February 25, 2018, 06:54:03 PM
Did you stop beating your wife ?
?
Great comeback to not answer my question. You understand clearly that what a tanna said has nothing to do with what we could say.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Yammer on February 25, 2018, 06:55:56 PM
That's why we first say "ein keilokeinu" and only then, once we've established that, do we ask "mi keilokeinu?"
This was how I was taught poshut pshat
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 08:17:58 PM
?
Great comeback to not answer my question. You understand clearly that what a tanna said has nothing to do with what we could say.

Sure. I have a duty to question everything.


Do you talk in shull? if yes, do you believe in God ? because clearly you dont respect him
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 25, 2018, 08:32:54 PM
Sure. I have a duty to question everything.


Do you talk in shull? if yes, do you believe in God ? because clearly you dont respect him
Saying the Word of G-d doesnt make sense is equally, if not more disrespectful.

Having said that, Talking in shul is terribly disruptive. I know i was guilty of it and our Rav worked terribly hard to make me and my friends stop...and we BH, for the most part did. When I now go to other shuls and people talk during leining it now distirbs me as well. However, that is not the be all and end all litmus test of whether one respects G-d or not.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: skyguy918 on February 25, 2018, 08:53:29 PM
Can I ask a silly question, all the way from the first post of this thread?

Where is this Rambam?
Quote
According to the Rambam, Chaggai lived until the destruction of the second Beis Hamikdash.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: MrKaplan on February 25, 2018, 09:02:12 PM
Shouldnt the title be Torah stuff that I don't understand?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ben89 on February 25, 2018, 09:10:23 PM
Shouldnt the title be Torah stuff that I don't understand?
lol
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ben89 on February 25, 2018, 09:11:43 PM
Do you talk in shul?
no
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 25, 2018, 09:19:22 PM
Shouldnt the title be Torah stuff that I don't understand?
I guess you don't understand the title.  :P
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 09:24:28 PM
Can I ask a silly question, all the way from the first post of this thread?

Where is this Rambam?

Very good point, I asked someone fluent in the rambam and he doesn't recall.. Maybe the ou messed up? But per @cmey it's in yerushalmi.

My question is then how literal is this?  Though Pinchas lived very long. Maybe chagai was a spirit ?

iI hhave no issue accepting someone lived 600 yyears as unnatural as that is. I just have a hard time understanding a navi living that long and disappearing from public life and history. Why would he give him hhis leadership role? 
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 09:31:23 PM
Did Ruth live 300+ years? (see tal. baba batra 91b - she was alive after Abshalom becomes king)...?

שנאמר (מלכים א ב, יט) וישם כסא לאם המלך וא"ר אלעזר לאמה של מלכות

רשב"ם - זו רות המואביה - שנקראת על שבט יהודה כלומר בנים שיצאו ממנה.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 09:39:01 PM
See radak "rachok meod" far fetched.

He must be a heretic like me
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Eliyohu on February 25, 2018, 09:42:18 PM


Very good point, I asked someone fluent in the rambam and he doesn't recall.. Maybe the ou messed up? But per @cmey it's in yerushalmi.

My question is then how literal is this?  Though Pinchas lived very long. Maybe chagai was a spirit ?

iI hhave no issue accepting someone lived 600 yyears as unnatural as that is. I just have a hard time understanding a navi living that long and disappearing from public life and history. Why would he give him his leadership role?

Can it be as simple as the same reason that the nevua that was transmitted is a tiny fraction of what there was. And the only stuff written are things that are nogeia L'doros..
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 10:02:22 PM

Can it be as simple as the same reason that the nevua that was transmitted is a tiny fraction of what there was. And the only stuff written are things that are nogeia L'doros..

I've been thinking and discussing that too...becsuse there were hundreds of true neviim that aren't in the canon.

Ovadiya saved 100 prophets alone.

Still, I'm not saying its not true. I said it doesn't make sense.

Maybe because I live in 2018 where we micro focus on every aged rebbe and rav but I can't believe that.. They visited aged taanaim and amoraim etc.
.
i just don't understand how chagai who was a chain in the mesorah or Mordecai could exist for hundreds of years and this all not recorded nor were they contributing Torah etc?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Eliyohu on February 25, 2018, 10:09:00 PM
I've been thinking and discussing that too...becsuse there were hundreds of true neviim that aren't in the canon.

Ovadiya saved 100 prophets alone.

Still, I'm not saying its not true. I said it doesn't make sense.

Maybe because I live in 2018 where we micro focus on every aged rebbe and rav but I can't believe that.. They visited aged taanaim and amoraim etc.
.
i just don't understand how chagai who was a chain in the mesorah or Mordecai could exist for hundreds of years and this all not recorded nor were they contributing Torah etc?
You're issue in a nutshell is you can't fathom that there wasn't social media and paparazzi around every aged Rabbi a there is today and documenting their lives? We see very clearly only things that were important L'doros were written, even megillas Esther wasn't so simple, who knows if we'd have ever heard of the story..  had Esther not gotten her way...
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: cmey on February 25, 2018, 10:18:22 PM
Very good point, I asked someone fluent in the rambam and he doesn't recall.. Maybe the ou messed up? But per @cmey it's in yerushalmi.

My question is then how literal is this?  Though Pinchas lived very long. Maybe chagai was a spirit ?

iI hhave no issue accepting someone lived 600 yyears as unnatural as that is. I just have a hard time understanding a navi living that long and disappearing from public life and history. Why would he give him hhis leadership role?

That’s because it’s a misquote. The yerushalmi and bavli are merely brought as a basis by some to say that Rabbi Dosa and Chaggai met each other. The Rambam (its in the hakdama miseder zeraim haperek harivi’i) learns that Rav Dosa was in the generation of Shimon Hatzadik (and therefore chaggai) and it was Rav Dosa who lived until the time of Rabbi Akiva...
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 10:25:18 PM
You're issue in a nutshell is you can't fathom that there wasn't social media and paparazzi around every aged Rabbi a there is today and documenting their lives? We see very clearly only things that were important L'doros were written, even megillas Esther wasn't so simple, who knows if we'd have ever heard of the story..  had Esther not gotten her way...

I have nachman cohen's "esther's plea"

But there were midrash and talmdic instances where they visited old sages to ask questions ?

The case of pinchas in his old age is different
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 10:26:41 PM
That’s because it’s a misquote. The yerushalmi and bavli are merely brought as a basis by some to say that Rabbi Dosa and Chaggai met each other. The Rambam (its in the hakdama miseder zeraim haperek harivi’i) learns that Rav Dosa was in the generation of Shimon Hatzadik (and therefore chaggai) and it was Rav Dosa who lived until the time of Rabbi Akiva...

Thank you, because I asked and no one knew where the rambam said it.

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 25, 2018, 10:30:03 PM
That’s because it’s a misquote. The yerushalmi and bavli are merely brought as a basis by some to say that Rabbi Dosa and Chaggai met each other. The Rambam (its in the hakdama miseder zeraim haperek harivi’i) learns that Rav Dosa was in the generation of Shimon Hatzadik (and therefore chaggai) and it was Rav Dosa who lived until the time of Rabbi Akiva...
Not really following but it sounds like a big nothing..
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: churnbabychurn on February 25, 2018, 10:30:29 PM
Did Ruth live 300+ years? (see tal. baba batra 91b - she was alive after Abshalom becomes king)...?

שנאמר (מלכים א ב, יט) וישם כסא לאם המלך וא"ר אלעזר לאמה של מלכות

רשב"ם - זו רות המואביה - שנקראת על שבט יהודה כלומר בנים שיצאו ממנה.
כלומר???
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 25, 2018, 10:35:02 PM
Not really following but it sounds like a big nothing..

Which? my whole thread ? sure in light of @cmey  yes.

From the get go I asked Rabbi smith and he said hes not seen it in the rambam and it would be a OU typo.

Lots of things dont "make sense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_years_(Jewish_calendar)

Rabbi Geizinsky in NMB has a book on it I was reading.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Eliyohu on February 25, 2018, 10:49:42 PM



But there were midrash and talmdic instances where they visited old sages to ask questions ?


Is that a question or statement? If it's a statement any specific sources?..

There are chassidic sounding stories of people who met serach bas Asher.. but I'm not familiar with anyone today who's claimed to have met her...

even in midrashic and talmudic sources there are some taanaim and amoraim only mentioned a second single time.. it seems that censorship of what should be written and passed down is pretty severe and no more perplexing then that of chaggai and to me rather simple that they're teachings and rulings were for that time and that time only. Mordecai whom you mentioned, even during his "active years" that are recorded there isn't much that we actually know.. can u name a single teaching from him..
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 10:16:01 AM
Why was achiya hashiloni prophecies not add to neviim ? Was it lost already?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 26, 2018, 10:36:51 AM
Why was achiya hashiloni prophecies not add to neviim ? Was it lost already?
Only ones which were to teach fire all of the generations were written.
Title: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 26, 2018, 11:10:51 AM
Which? my whole thread ? sure in light of @cmey  yes.

From the get go I asked Rabbi smith and he said hes not seen it in the rambam and it would be a OU typo.

Lots of things dont "make sense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_years_(Jewish_calendar)

Rabbi Geizinsky in NMB has a book on it I was reading.
So here we have it, an entire thread full of criticism, perceived attacks, etc. which actually boiled down to a simple question and answer. A lot could have been avoided if 1. The question would have been better articulated, and 2. The title would have been a little better thought through.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 11:29:00 AM
So here we have it, an entire thread full of criticism, perceived attacks, etc. which actually boiled down to a simple question and answer. A lot could have been avoided if 1. The question would have been better articulated, and 2. The title would have been a little better thought through.

But it wasn't and I apologize. But the constant attacks on me are as stupid. I just have a lot of questions and maybe lots of uncomfortable ideas but I also have rabbinic guidance in my life.. (renowned rabbanim for that matter)  to say that I'm a heretic because I ask questions is quite silly.

Any ways, this should have been in general discussion in appropriate thread.. Apologies. Grateful to @cmey

Looked up the chazon ish. Though I'll stick with the rambams comments on achiya hashiloni as the one that lived very long.

Does it mean, the others didn't?  No.. Do I find it hard to believe?  I'll just echo the radak " ze rachok meod" maybe they did.. But apparently it's not relevant unless they hide some missing Torah we want to uncover
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: gingyguy on February 26, 2018, 11:34:08 AM
But it wasn't and I apologize. But the constant attacks on me are as stupid. I just have a lot of questions and maybe lots of uncomfortable ideas but I also have rabbinic guidance in my life.. (renowned rabbanim for that matter)  to say that I'm a heretic because I ask questions is quite silly.

Any ways, this should have been in general discussion in appropriate thread.. Apologies. Grateful to @cmey

Looked up the chazon ish. Though I'll stick with the rambams comments on achiya hashiloni as the one that lived very long.

Does it mean, the others didn't?  No.. Do I find it hard to believe?  I'll just echo the radak " ze rachok meod" maybe they did.. But apparently it's not relevant unless they hide some missing Torah we want to uncover
your questions are perfectly fine. your way of asking it is very much not so.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 26, 2018, 12:32:04 PM
your questions are perfectly fine. your way of asking it is very much not so.
+1.

Additionally, not all criticism of what you write is an attack. It's an extremely valuable trait to have, to be able to accept criticism without feeling attacked. It allows one to respond with a cool head, sometimes seeing the other point of view, and reaching amicable resolution much faster.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 12:42:08 PM
+1.

Additionally, not all criticism of what you write is an attack. It's an extremely valuable trait to have, to be able to accept criticism without feeling attacked. It allows one to respond with a cool head, sometimes seeing the other point of view, and reaching amicable resolution much faster.

For me the, the irony is that I get attacked for not having respect for torah, chazal, halacha.

Yet I spend a premium on kosher wines precisely because I accept Halacha.

Maybe we dont see eye to eye on bugs, but then again I have a lot of halachik support for my practices there.

As much as criticism is important, so is being able to accept that people practice judaism differently.

Yet to me, the #1 thing that pisses me off is, talking in shull. I never ever saw any one any where write that its OK to shmooze during kaddish or chazaras hashatz, or krias hatorah.. yet its quite normal.

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: shapsam on February 26, 2018, 12:45:46 PM
yet its quite normal.
Depends where.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 26, 2018, 12:46:53 PM
Yet to me, the #1 thing that pisses me off is, talking in shull. I never ever saw any one any where write that its OK to shmooze during kaddish or chazaras hashatz, or krias hatorah.. yet its quite normal.

I fully understand you and probably mostly agree on this one. I think @hvaces42 is missing the point when he talks about it being disturbing. It's about making Yiddishkeit real. If one indeed believes what a shul is, and what davening is, talking during davening in shul is just incomprehensible (to put it mildly). I have on occasion taken this to an extreme, stating that I cannot understand why a person that talks in shul should expect their children to keep Shabbos or Kashrus.

That being said, it's probably best to find a Barditchever style approach towards those that talk, and rather than fight it, try to enlighten and educate.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 12:53:24 PM
I fully understand you and probably mostly agree on this one. I think @hvaces42 is missing the point when he talks about it being disturbing. It's about making Yiddishkeit real. If one indeed believes what a shul is, and what davening is, talking during davening in shul is just incomprehensible (to put it mildly). I have on occasion taken this to an extreme, stating that I cannot understand why a person that talks in shul should expect their children to keep Shabbos or Kashrus.

That being said, it's probably best to find a Barditchever style approach towards those that talk, and rather than fight it, try to enlighten and educate.

I have tried the berdichiver approach. Ate by a guy in rechavia Herzog, told me he used to tell every one to be quiet, wrote to the Rebbe, letter in igros was "you should focus on what you need to do, not what others do"

Talking in shull during prayers makes me question yiras shamayim. Does this person believe in tefilla ? Does he know he is a chote umechate.. he is implicating the person he talks to, disturbs the tefillah, the shull decorum, the sanctity of a mikdash me'at, disrespects the Rav and as per many places ive read, taints the tefillah of the tzibur.

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: shiframeir on February 26, 2018, 01:02:43 PM
Yet to me, the #1 thing that pisses me off is, talking in shull. I never ever saw any one any where write that its OK to shmooze during kaddish or chazaras hashatz, or krias hatorah.. yet its quite normal.
I love shuls/minyanim where everyone comes in knowing the rules and wanting to be part of a place where there is no extraneous talking. Unfortunately in Willowbrook SI there just aren't (m)any (though the young married minyan upstairs in the young israel is pretty good). We had our annual Yachad shabbaton this past shabbos BH in our noisy main shul at the Young Israel. there were kids laughing, screaming etc. at random parts of davening, and several talked a lot to the people they were with. like every year, that does not disturb my davening. though i usually go to a different friday night minyan, i especially go to that minyan, and my davening is always better.

U get disturbed if you want to get disturbed/if u let it disturb u. If u realized that most of the shmo's who walk in late and just talk from start to finish were just as needy and vulnerable as the yachad kids (and perhaps anusim too), your prayers for them might be even better than without such distractions.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: shiframeir on February 26, 2018, 01:04:50 PM
I was just reminded of Moshe's prayers to Hashem while battling amalek, i'm sure it was pretty noisy, but I'm sure he used the noise to enhance his prayer. We arent going to stop talking it shul, its been there since shul started.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ben89 on February 26, 2018, 02:06:59 PM
For me the, the irony is that I get attacked for not having respect for torah, chazal, halacha.

Yet I spend a premium on kosher wines precisely because I accept Halacha.

Maybe we dont see eye to eye on bugs, but then again I have a lot of halachik support for my practices there.

As much as criticism is important, so is being able to accept that people practice judaism differently.

Yet to me, the #1 thing that pisses me off is, talking in shull. I never ever saw any one any where write that its OK to shmooze during kaddish or chazaras hashatz, or krias hatorah.. yet its quite normal.
oh, so your the guy with the “stop talking in shul” campaign?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 26, 2018, 02:09:26 PM
For me the, the irony is that I get attacked for not having respect for torah, chazal, halacha.

Yet I spend a premium on kosher wines precisely because I accept Halacha.

Maybe we dont see eye to eye on bugs, but then again I have a lot of halachik support for my practices there.

As much as criticism is important, so is being able to accept that people practice judaism differently.

Yet to me, the #1 thing that pisses me off is, talking in shull. I never ever saw any one any where write that its OK to shmooze during kaddish or chazaras hashatz, or krias hatorah.. yet its quite normal.
Agreed, neither have I ever seen it was OK to scratch your leg in middle d avenging, and still it's quite normal
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:18:06 PM
oh, so your the guy with the “stop talking in shul” campaign?

my brother actually.. I stick to food and wine.. its my mitzvah kashrut campaign
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: smart man on February 26, 2018, 02:19:01 PM
I have tried the berdichiver approach. Ate by a guy in rechavia Herzog, told me he used to tell every one to be quiet, wrote to the Rebbe, letter in igros was "you should focus on what you need to do, not what others do"
Is that the blogger from Passaic?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:20:02 PM
Agreed, neither have I ever seen it was OK to scratch your leg in middle d avenging, and still it's quite normal

Are you being serious ? im assuming not

But, in one country (moroco?) I heard that if you crossed your legs in shull. the gabbai would hit your leg with a stick
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:20:33 PM
Is that the blogger from Passaic?

Herzog? no he lives in rechavia, lubavitcher
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 26, 2018, 02:22:50 PM


my brother actually.. I stick to food and wine.. its my mitzvah kashrut campaign
At least you aren't necessarily on an agenda
Are you being serious ? im assuming not

But, in one country (moroco?) I heard that if you crossed your legs in shull. the gabbai would hit your leg with a stick
So lets hang up signs, and piss the h*ll out of everyone not to cross their legs
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:26:06 PM
At least you aren't necessarily on an agenda So lets hang up signs, and piss the h*ll out of everyone not to cross their legs

I have no agenda's. If I come to shull, i'm 100% late or the davening is over, but I keep my mouth shut.

It took years to finish the shull... then they sold seats for 3,600. Meh! I had a better idea years ago.. told them to offer extra legroom and reclining seats for 15k.. building would have been done 10 years ago
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 26, 2018, 02:28:51 PM


I have no agenda's. If I come to shull, i'm 100% late or the davening is over, but I keep my mouth shut.



And what tells you one is better then the other?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:29:24 PM
Chabad shulls need to say this.. saw a sign hanging in the chabad shull in LA as 50% of the shull shmoozed so maybe not



Quote
    מי שברך אבותינו, אברהם יצחק ויעקב, משה ואהרן, דוד ושלמה, הוא יברך את כל מי ששומר פיו ולשונו שלא לדבר בעת התפילה, הקב"ה ישמרהו מכל צרה וצוקה ומכל נגע ומחלה, ויחולו עליו כל הברכות הכתובות בספר תורת משה רבינו ובכל ספרי הנביאים והכתובים, ויזכה לראות בנים חיים וקימים ויגדלם לתורה לחופה ולמעשים טובים, ויעבוד את ה' אלוהינו תמיד באמת ובתמים ונאמר אמן. ‏

He who blessed our forefather Avraham, Yitzchak and Yaakov, Moshe and Aaron, David and Shlomo, he will bless those who guard their mouth and tongue from speaking during prayers. the Holy One Blessed be He shall guard him from every trouble and distress and from every plague and illness, and he shall be subject to all the blessings written in the Torah of Moshe and all the Prophets and Scriptures, and he will merit live and healthy children whom he shall educated to nurture them to [become] Torah [scholars], marry them off and educate them to do good deeds, and he shall eternally serve Hashem truthfully. Amen. sincerely
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:30:08 PM

And what tells you one is better then the other?

Its better to miss shull than not talk but its not a binary option for me. I just procasinate
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: smart man on February 26, 2018, 02:30:32 PM
Once we're off topic... Where does no talking in shul come from. Always thought it was only an issue during davening.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 26, 2018, 02:30:51 PM


Its better to miss shull than not talk but its not a binary option for me. I just procasinate

This is according to who? It's your own opinion?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 26, 2018, 02:32:28 PM
Once we're off topic... Where does no talking in shul come from. Always thought it was only an issue during davening.
Quite the contrary, AFAIK the only מקור for no talking, is from a דין בית הכנסת which isn't our AFAIK isn't our shuls.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 02:42:15 PM
Once we're off topic... Where does no talking in shul come from. Always thought it was only an issue during davening.
https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5771-mishpatim/
Quote
1.Shulchan Aruch rules that idle talk is forbidden in shul even when prayers are not being recited[2]. Idle talk includes conversation about one’s livelihood or other essential needs[3]. Nowadays there is some room for leniency concerning such talk, since some Rishonim rule that shuls are generally built with a “precondition” allowing them to be used for essential matters other than davening[4].
Quote
3.Talking during prayers causes a chillul Hashem, since it unfortunately lends support to the widely held perception that non-Jews are more careful than Jews to maintain proper decorum in their houses of worship[6].

@ChaimMoskowitz  can you take one for the team and talk more during services

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: gingyguy on February 26, 2018, 02:45:55 PM
Chabad shulls need to say this.. saw a sign hanging in the chabad shull in LA as 50% of the shull shmoozed so maybe not
this מי שברך was written by the תוס יוט after he had a dream that the reason for the crusades was talking in shul during davening
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: smart man on February 26, 2018, 03:01:06 PM
https://torah.org/torah-portion/weekly-halacha-5771-mishpatim/
Well I personally think they should have picked their fights better and not create a no talking in shul project, but creating a no talking during davening or chazoras hashatz project. Fwiu the mishna berura says only to scream at someone that talks during chazoras hashatz. Cmiiw.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 26, 2018, 03:07:23 PM
@ChaimMoskowitz  can you take one for the team and talk more during services
I found putting on my headphones and listening to music works best. Then can talk all they want.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: cmey on February 26, 2018, 03:37:13 PM
But it wasn't and I apologize. But the constant attacks on me are as stupid. I just have a lot of questions and maybe lots of uncomfortable ideas but I also have rabbinic guidance in my life.. (renowned rabbanim for that matter)  to say that I'm a heretic because I ask questions is quite silly.

Any ways, this should have been in general discussion in appropriate thread.. Apologies. Grateful to @cmey

Looked up the chazon ish. Though I'll stick with the rambams comments on achiya hashiloni as the one that lived very long.

Does it mean, the others didn't?  No.. Do I find it hard to believe?  I'll just echo the radak " ze rachok meod" maybe they did.. But apparently it's not relevant unless they hide some missing Torah we want to uncover

Any thinking person should have questions. I have many. Some I’ve found an answer to. Others I don’t yet have the answer but I know that just as there is an answer to the former, there is an answer to the latter as well. It’s how one asks the question that is important. The sum total of human intelligence and knowledge is so minuscule as compared to the vast amount there is to know in the universe that it is barely significant. I believe that chazal and the Torah giants stretching back to Har Sinai had a connection to a source of knowledge greater than anything that can be humanly acquired. It doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t ask questions, but it means that one should approach such questions with humility and the knowledge that it is ok not to understand, yet to accept that there is an answer as well.


בספרו של הר' יעקב גלינסקי ע"ה 'והגדת – 'הגדה של פסח' – רעיונות ולקחים, סיפורים ומשלים", מצינו (עמ' 84):

"בעל התניא זצ"ל השתתף בשמחת נישואין. כמנהג, היה שם בדחן ששמח את המסובין בחרוזים, וכטוב לבו בוודקה החל משמיע דברי תוכחה נוקבים, לא חסך שבט לשונו, הצליף באמרי פיו. הוקיע מידות ותכונות, הנהגות ומעשים, וקבלו תוכחתו ברוח טובה. אהבת תוכחה, מקניני תורה. רק על בעל ה'תניא' דלג, וזה כה מובן. מי יעז להיכוות בגחלתו! אבל אם קנין תורה היא, נחון בה בעל ה'תניא' במידה גדושה. "מדוע דלגת עלי", תבע. "אמור את אשר בליבך!". הוודקה התירה את חרצבות לשונו של הבדחן. נענה ואמר: "וכי מה יתרונו של הרבי עלינו? ידיעת התורה שלו, בנגלה ובנסתר! ואני שאול: האמנם כן?! הבה נבחן – הרי מה שאני יודע, גם הרבי יודע – ומה שהרבי לא יודע, גם אני איני יודע. אלא מאי? רבים הדברים שהרבי יודע, ואני איני יודע?! מה בכך?! והלא רבים לאין שיעור הדברים, שגם הרבי וגם אני איננו יודעים!" פרץ הבדחן בבכי, והרבי בכה לעמתו..."

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 26, 2018, 03:52:55 PM
Any thinking person should have questions. I have many. Some I’ve found an answer to. Others I don’t yet have the answer but I know that just as there is an answer to the former, there is an answer to the latter as well. It’s how one asks the question that is important. The sum total of human intelligence and knowledge is so minuscule as compared to the vast amount there is to know in the universe that it is barely significant. I believe that chazal and the Torah giants stretching back to Har Sinai had a connection to a source of knowledge greater than anything that can be humanly acquired. It doesn’t mean that one shouldn’t ask questions, but it means that one should approach such questions with humility and the knowledge that it is ok not to understand, yet to accept that there is an answer as well.
Well said.

Of note is the saying attributed to R' Hillel of Paritsch (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hillel_Paritcher) who was a great Chossid, and even wrote some of his own Chassidus discourses, who said that when compared to the Alter Rebbe, the cat and I (meaning R' Hillel) are equals.


בספרו של הר' יעקב גלינסקי ע"ה 'והגדת – 'הגדה של פסח' – רעיונות ולקחים, סיפורים ומשלים", מצינו (עמ' 84):

"בעל התניא זצ"ל השתתף בשמחת נישואין. כמנהג, היה שם בדחן ששמח את המסובין בחרוזים, וכטוב לבו בוודקה החל משמיע דברי תוכחה נוקבים, לא חסך שבט לשונו, הצליף באמרי פיו. הוקיע מידות ותכונות, הנהגות ומעשים, וקבלו תוכחתו ברוח טובה. אהבת תוכחה, מקניני תורה. רק על בעל ה'תניא' דלג, וזה כה מובן. מי יעז להיכוות בגחלתו! אבל אם קנין תורה היא, נחון בה בעל ה'תניא' במידה גדושה. "מדוע דלגת עלי", תבע. "אמור את אשר בליבך!". הוודקה התירה את חרצבות לשונו של הבדחן. נענה ואמר: "וכי מה יתרונו של הרבי עלינו? ידיעת התורה שלו, בנגלה ובנסתר! ואני שאול: האמנם כן?! הבה נבחן – הרי מה שאני יודע, גם הרבי יודע – ומה שהרבי לא יודע, גם אני איני יודע. אלא מאי? רבים הדברים שהרבי יודע, ואני איני יודע?! מה בכך?! והלא רבים לאין שיעור הדברים, שגם הרבי וגם אני איננו יודעים!" פרץ הבדחן בבכי, והרבי בכה לעמתו..."
I haven't seen this story elsewhere, and while לא ראינו, אינה ראיה, especially when I am the person saying לא ראיתי, a quick google search came up with this (http://www.forum.ladaat.info/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=11384&view=unread).
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: zale on February 26, 2018, 04:11:44 PM
Any thinking person should have questions. I have many. Some I’ve found an answer to. Others I don’t yet have the answer but I know that just as there is an answer to the former, there is an answer to the latter as well. It’s how one asks the question that is important.

אמונה doesn't make sense.

We believe because we are מאמינים בני מאמינים and our neshamos were by matan torah.

From an intellectual standpoint alone, there are plenty of questions.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 26, 2018, 04:32:17 PM
this מי שברך was written by the תוס יוט after he had a dream that the reason for the crusades was talking in shul during davening
it was the Cossacks
Title: Re: Torah stuff that I don't understand
Post by: hvaces42 on February 26, 2018, 05:32:50 PM
אמונה doesn't make sense.




The way it was explained to me when i asked the question was as follows: Us Jews celebrate the holidays because our parents celebrated them back to time immemorial. Our parents are not liars so we inherently believe that they received this tradition going back to its origin. Therefore, the biblical narrative must be true.

If that is the case then we celebrate Shavuos, which memorializes the receipt of the Torah at Sinai. So part of the narrative that Moses ascended to Heaven and came down with the Tablets is fact. Then what part of Judaism requires faith?

The part that has him writing down everything else besides what he came down with.


Does that make Emunah more understandable?
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 06:14:27 PM
אמונה doesn't make sense.

We believe because we are מאמינים בני מאמינים and our neshamos were by matan torah.

From an intellectual standpoint alone, there are plenty of questions.

So I should just believe every baal shem tov story I hear, because hey emuna...
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 26, 2018, 06:19:44 PM
So I should just believe every baal shem tov story I hear, because hey emuna...
The torah doesnt require you to believe any baal shemtov story. Where do you get your logic from?

Can you answer this question...What part of Judaism requires emunah? If we have every yom tov as a remembrance of an actual event that occurred and they have been celebrated continuously from when they were established, what actually requires faith/emunah?
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: gingyguy on February 26, 2018, 06:27:19 PM
So I should just believe every baal shem tov story I hear, because hey emuna...
the average baal shem tov story (and for the matter golem story as well ) was first created well after he was niftar.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 26, 2018, 06:30:42 PM
the average baal shem tov story (and for the matter golem story as well ) was first created well after he was niftar.
Read this thread. Golem stories are being written as we speak.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: zale on February 26, 2018, 07:17:35 PM
So I should just believe every baal shem tov story I hear, because hey emuna...

Not at all. But once your belief in the Torah is solid, questions will have a completely different meaning. Your question won’t be “things in the Torah that don’t make sense”, but rather “how can I reconcile that which I don’t understand in the Torah”.

Say you see the International Space Station up in orbit and you can’t understand how it got there, would you say “this doesn’t make sense”, or would you ask “how can I understand more about how it got there”? We already know you would ask the latter. That’s because you completely believe that it’s actually up there and that your eyes are not deceiving you.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 26, 2018, 07:30:17 PM
Not at all. But once your belief in the Torah is solid, questions will have a completely different meaning. Your question won’t be “things in the Torah that don’t make sense”, but rather “how can I reconcile that which I don’t understand in the Torah”.

Say you see the International Space Station up in orbit and you can’t understand how it got there, would you say “this doesn’t make sense”, or would you ask “how can I understand more about how it got there”? We already know you would ask the latter. That’s because you completely believe that it’s actually up there and that your eyes are not deceiving you.
Sorry here comes what might be an ignorant question. Are you saying that everything in the Torah can be explained where it makes sense?
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: zale on February 26, 2018, 07:31:47 PM
The torah doesnt require you to believe any baal shemtov story. Where do you get your logic from?

Can you answer this question...What part of Judaism requires emunah? If we have every yom tov as a remembrance of an actual event that occurred and they have been celebrated continuously from when they were established, what actually requires faith/emunah?

Simple. Christians have celebrated Xmas for millenia. What differentiates our Holidays from theirs?

As a Jew you believe that their Holidays have no real basis. What makes you think ours has? They celebrate their Holidays because their parents celebrated it and their grandparents before that. How do we know that ours is any different?

Can you independently verify that our festivals have a real basis? Let’s start with Chanukah. FM went on and on for years about how there is no “documented history” regarding the miracle of the oil on Chanukah. Why is the story of Purim not well known to historians? If Hashem did fantasy-style miracles for the Jews in Egypt, why did he stop now? Surely he could have hit the Nazis with at least frogs or lice?

Sorry, I don’t want to preach kefirah here but you get my point. Emunah is the entirety of it.

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 26, 2018, 07:35:43 PM
Simple. Christians have celebrated Xmas for millenia. What differentiates our Holidays from theirs?

As a Jew you believe that their Holidays have no real basis. What makes you think ours has? They celebrate their Holidays because their parents celebrated it and their grandparents before that. How do we know that ours is any different?

Can you independently verify that our festivals have a real basis? Let’s start with Chanukah. FM went on and on for years about how there is no “documented history” regarding the miracle of the oil on Chanukah. Why is the story of Purim not well known to historians? If Hashem did fantasy-style miracles for the Jews in Egypt, why did he stop now? Surely he could have hit the Nazis with at least frogs or lice?

Sorry, I don’t want to preach kefirah here but you get my point. Emunah is the entirety of it.
WOW!
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: zale on February 26, 2018, 07:35:46 PM
Sorry here comes what might be an ignorant question. Are you saying that everything in the Torah can be explained where it makes sense?

Not at all. Not everything can be understood. Especially Midrash and Kabalah.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 26, 2018, 07:36:04 PM
Sorry here comes what might be an ignorant question. Are you saying that everything in the Torah can be explained where it makes sense?
Everything makes sense in His infinite wisdom. Some parts won't be understood by any humans until the messianic era.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: gingyguy on February 26, 2018, 07:59:52 PM
it was the Cossacks
whoops .
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 08:04:22 PM
The torah doesnt require you to believe any baal shemtov story. Where do you get your logic from?

Can you answer this question...What part of Judaism requires emunah? If we have every yom tov as a remembrance of an actual event that occurred and they have been celebrated continuously from when they were established, what actually requires faith/emunah?

I never doubted the core tenets of judaism. But then this by extension would  hold me to anything the rishonim say.. yet how is it ok for Radak to find it far fetched that Ruth was alive 300 years later.

i'm not skeptical. I dont doubt the Rambam's writings etc and others

But I dont think everything is mean to be taken literally.

Arba nichnas l'pardes was this litteral or mystical?

Quote
Rashi explains that they ascended to Heaven by utilizing the Divine Name, which might be understood as achieving a spiritual elevation through Jewish meditation practices. The Tosafot, medieval commentaries on the Talmud, say that the four sages "did not go up literally, but it appeared to them as if they went up."[5] On the other hand, Rabbi Louis Ginzberg writes in the Jewish Encyclopedia (1901–1906) that the journey to paradise "is to be taken literally and not allegorically".[6] According to another interpretation, PaRDeS-exegesis is an acronym for the 4 traditional methods of exegesis in Judaism. In this sense, they were the four to understand the whole Torah
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 26, 2018, 08:15:51 PM
Simple. Christians have celebrated Xmas for millenia. What differentiates our Holidays from theirs?

As a Jew you believe that their Holidays have no real basis. What makes you think ours has? They celebrate their Holidays because their parents celebrated it and their grandparents before that. How do we know that ours is any different?

Can you independently verify that our festivals have a real basis? Let’s start with Chanukah. FM went on and on for years about how there is no “documented history” regarding the miracle of the oil on Chanukah. Why is the story of Purim not well known to historians? If Hashem did fantasy-style miracles for the Jews in Egypt, why did he stop now? Surely he could have hit the Nazis with at least frogs or lice?

Sorry, I don’t want to preach kefirah here but you get my point. Emunah is the entirety of it.
My grandfather and farher arent liars. If you only have emunah as your failsafe from discounting Judaism as just another religion then its a very thin line to going off.

To follow your logic why have emunah in Judaism. The same way Moshe Rabbeinu came down from the mountain with the Torah, lehavdil elef alfei alafim, Mohammed heard an "angel" speak to him in the cave and gave him the Koran.

What is emunah? Pick and choose what sounds best to you? Of course not.

Judaism is the only religion that has a mesorah of national revelation, ma'amad Har Sinai. My grandfather and his grandfather have the tradition all the way back to that time. We heard אנכי. No other religion has that mesorah. They have individuals who claimed to have received messages.

So you will tell me Moshe Rabbeinu also made up everything besides the עשרת הדיברות. That is where אמונה and the 13 Ikrim come into play.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 11:27:06 PM
Again, its not emuna.. But yes we can discuss, was matan torah a physical event or ruach hakodesh revelation?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 26, 2018, 11:35:52 PM
Again, its not emuna.. But yes we can discuss, was matan torah a physical event or ruach hakodesh revelation?

@ExGingi  B'shaa shekidmu...Oh I learned Samach vav ;) I have a good memory, any maamer I ever learned I can give over.

Any ways, are we to assume these are physical crowns ? if yes, where are they.

I am just saying in general, I dont think everything is meant to be taken literally..


Quote
The contents of the Ark has been debated through the centuries. The general consensus is that the first tablets containing the Ten Commandments, which were broken by Moses, and the second tablets, which remained intact, were contained in the Ark (Bava Batra 14b). According to one opinion in the Talmud, both Tablets were together in the Ark; according to another, there were two Arks, and each contained one set of Tablets (Berakhot 8b).


So are there 2 ark's out there ? how many menorahs ?
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 06:01:59 AM
My grandfather and farher arent liars.
...and mine are?  ::)
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: Boruch999 on February 27, 2018, 06:38:22 AM
...and mine are?  ::)

Presumably not.  But what they tell you is that one or a few individuals received Divine Revelation.   The above argument is that while it is possible that one or a few individuals deceived their contemporaries in to believing that they had received Divine Revelation, it is highly unlikely that an entire nation colluded to deceive their children en mass.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:56:42 AM
...and mine are?  ::)
Listen very closely to that argument. Its exactly why you're not jewish and I'm not Christian.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 09:24:18 AM
Listen very closely to that argument. Its exactly why you're not jewish and I'm not Christian.
The reason one of is Jewish and other is Catholic has nothing to do with stories we were told.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 09:58:07 AM
The reason one of is Jewish and other is Catholic has nothing to do with stories we were told.
Please enlighten us. Obviously, we are raised one way and we choose to either remain or change. But the reason we choose is grounded in faith. Faith that comes from an understanding of the founding principles of our religion. The "stories we are told" are the narrative that leads us to have faith in the portions of the religion that cannot be proven by the facts.

Again, my grandfather celebrated all the holidays because he saw his grandfather do it all the way back to the first such celebration, which pre-dates any celebration you will point to. So why do I need to rely on "stories we were told", its a live religion with currently celebrated holidays that were celebrated millenia ago.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 10:18:57 AM
There are plenty of online venues for this kind of stuff. Can someone please start another forum somewhere else called Bible/Talmud/Contemporary Halacha Criticism and Interfaith dialogue?
No reason this stuff belongs on DDF....
Dan, what if someone wants to start an adult site discussion thread?
Does anything go on DDF?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 27, 2018, 10:30:10 AM
There are plenty of online venues for this kind of stuff. Can someone please start another forum somewhere else called Bible/Talmud/Contemporary Halacha Criticism and Interfaith dialogue?
No reason this stuff belongs on DDF....
Dan, what if someone wants to start an adult site discussion thread?
Does anything go on DDF?

No one is criticizing, if anything, my issues are with people that focus too much on modern day chumros etc and ignore mesorah
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yesitsme on February 27, 2018, 10:31:15 AM
How in the world does keli reshon cook and cli sheni doesnt cook, Cook up oil and put it in a cli sheini then cook up water and keep it in kli reshon check the temp of both the oil kli shaini will be hotter.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 10:32:19 AM
No one is criticizing, if anything, my issues are with people that focus too much on modern day chumros etc and ignore mesorah
There are venues for that too...
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 27, 2018, 10:35:49 AM
The reason one of is Jewish and other is Catholic has nothing to do with stories we were told.

No, but the difference is, the giving of the torah, the exodus from egypt. Even witho5ut historical evidence, the torah gives us proof.

"Sha'al avicha v'yageidcha. Zikeinecha v'yomru lach"

Deuteronomy 32:7 7Remember the days of old; consider the generations long past. Ask your father and he will tell you, your elders, and they will explain to you.

The Torah gives over an unbroken chain. 600,000 left egypt, they stood before Mt Sinai. The torah tells us to carry this on generation to generation but also that there is proof..

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 27, 2018, 10:36:28 AM
There are venues for that too...

thats why its on JS
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 11:00:07 AM


Lots of things dont "make sense"

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Missing_years_(Jewish_calendar)

Rabbi Geizinsky in NMB has a book on it I was reading.

Let’s start threads on that, eye for an eye, killing the 7 nations, etc etc, after all its JS.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ExGingi on February 27, 2018, 11:11:45 AM
@ExGingi  B'shaa shekidmu...Oh I learned Samach vav ;) I have a good memory, any maamer I ever learned I can give over.
So those are a few things that where you are ahead of me.

Why don't you start a DDF shiur in Samach Vav? I would join.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 12:35:10 PM
So those are a few things that where you are ahead of me.

Why don't you start a DDF shiur in Samach Vav? I would join.
Chabad codewords being slung about.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 12:38:45 PM
Let’s start threads on that, eye for an eye, killing the 7 nations, etc etc, after all its JS.
Be our guest. Go right ahead.

Equating questions in emunah with adult site discussions is exactly what is wrong with this generation.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ExGingi on February 27, 2018, 01:03:45 PM
Chabad codewords being slung about.
Not too much of a codeword. Referring to this (http://hebrewbooks.org/31623). Also available in an updated version beginning here (http://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/2967062).

Though the reference to the crowns might be alluding to this (http://www.lahak.org/templates/lahak/article_cdo/aid/2967081).


Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 01:17:18 PM
Be our guest. Go right ahead.

Equating questions in emunah with adult site discussions is exactly what is wrong with this generation.

That was not my intent whatsoever.
I have no problem with questions in emunah. They ought to be encouraged in the proper format. We are privileged to have many seforim from the rishonim and achronim as well as contemporary authors and lecturers who discuss them. The proper format is a serious forum with the participation of those who are knowledgeable on the subject, and there are plenty who are. Contrast that with this thread, where Jews and Catholics are discussing comparative religion (are you really trying to convince Chaimmoskowitz of the superiority of the Jewish tradition?), and discussions of a problematic Rambam that most forum participants never even heard of, and only one apparently knows where to look to conclude that the Rambam doesn’t exist, and this forum is clearly not the place for this.


That was the (admittedly rather crude) analogy to an adult thread which clearly doesn’t belong here; it was not meant to impugn  questions of emunah in general.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 03:17:34 PM
Please enlighten us. Obviously, we are raised one way and we choose to either remain or change. But the reason we choose is grounded in faith. Faith that comes from an understanding of the founding principles of our religion. The "stories we are told" are the narrative that leads us to have faith in the portions of the religion that cannot be proven by the facts.

Again, my grandfather celebrated all the holidays because he saw his grandfather do it all the way back to the first such celebration, which pre-dates any celebration you will point to. So why do I need to rely on "stories we were told", its a live religion with currently celebrated holidays that were celebrated millenia ago.
What's there to enlighten anyone about. The way one was raised is the overwhelming deciding factor. Where you given a choice? Did you research all the religions before deciding? I will bet your answer will be the same as mine and millions of others, no.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 03:37:13 PM
What's there to enlighten anyone about. The way one was raised is the overwhelming deciding factor. Where you given a choice? Did you research all the religions before deciding? I will bet your answer will be the same as mine and millions of others, no.
Correct. However, you always have a choice once you have asked the proper questions and understood the proper answers.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 03:41:57 PM
Correct. However, you always have a choice once you have asked the proper questions and understood the proper answers.
What other religions have you researched?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 03:42:17 PM
That was not my intent whatsoever.
I have no problem with questions in emunah. They ought to be encouraged in the proper format. We are privileged to have many seforim from the rishonim and achronim as well as contemporary authors and lecturers who discuss them. The proper format is a serious forum with the participation of those who are knowledgeable on the subject, and there are plenty who are. Contrast that with this thread, where Jews and Catholics are discussing comparative religion (are you really trying to convince Chaimmoskowitz of the superiority of the Jewish tradition?), and discussions of a problematic Rambam that most forum participants never even heard of, and only one apparently knows where to look to conclude that the Rambam doesn’t exist, and this forum is clearly not the place for this.


That was the (admittedly rather crude) analogy to an adult thread which clearly doesn’t belong here; it was not meant to impugn  questions of emunah in general.
Since when is this not the proper place? No one is trying to convince anyone of anything here. We are JS, Just Shmoozing. These topics do come up in normal conversation so why is DDF not a proper forum? Maybe I'm slow and dont get it. Shabbos, Yom Tov, Kashrus, Minhagim are all fair game, but basic questions in emunah are not. Sounds alot like the yeshivas I'm familiar with.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 03:43:26 PM
What other religions have you researched?
Yours, Islam. At least as much as you have researched ours
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 03:45:58 PM
Yours, Islam. At least as much as you have researched ours
So basically you haven't then just like me. So how do you know other religions don't have the correct answers?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 03:46:46 PM
So basically you haven't then just like me. So how do you know other religions don't have the correct answers?
You haven't researched our religion?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 03:49:47 PM
You haven't researched our religion?
Researched as having an understanding, no.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: Eliyohu on February 27, 2018, 04:30:24 PM



So are there 2 ark's out there ? how many menorahs ?

Yes there are (at least) 2 arks, one (that stayed) in the kodesh kodashim, and one that went to battle.
Menorahs there were a bunch (Shlomo put 10 iirc). But besides for these there were replacements for each keili in the bais hamikdosh in case it became tomei...
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 27, 2018, 04:35:59 PM

Yes there are (at least) 2 arks, one (that stayed) in the kodesh kodashim, and one that went to battle.
Menorahs there were a bunch (Shlomo put 10 iirc). But besides for these there were replacements for each keili in the bais hamikdosh in case it became tomei...

So maybe indiana jones found one ?
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 27, 2018, 04:42:29 PM
What's there to enlighten anyone about. The way one was raised is the overwhelming deciding factor. Where you given a choice? Did you research all the religions before deciding? I will bet your answer will be the same as mine and millions of others, no.

I didnt research other religions, but ive researched judaism in ways that give me more answers and faith than Christianity and Islam.

Both are inherently flawed any are sub cultures of the hebrew religion. As neither are idol worship (different debate if Christianity is avoda zara) its fine for a non jew to believe in Shituf.

A jew believes in G-d as the sole power Rambam discusses this and @ExGingi  I learned the Tanya of this in Rabbi Paltiel's class..

I wonder if any judaic legit sources believe malachim have free will and power on their own
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 05:02:28 PM
I didnt research other religions, but ive researched judaism in ways that give me more answers and faith than Christianity and Islam.
What answers are you looking for? Maybe we can help each other out as I am looking for answers also.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: BP16 on February 27, 2018, 05:06:20 PM
What answers are you looking for? Maybe we can help each other out as I am looking for answers also.
Did anyone ever stop you from asking any questions here?
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 05:08:20 PM
Did anyone ever stop you from asking any questions here?
Actually yes. I have received many PM's explaining to me what I was asking wasn't appropriate and I stopped.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 05:19:05 PM
Did anyone ever stop you from asking any questions here?
Ummm...
That was not my intent whatsoever.
I have no problem with questions in emunah. They ought to be encouraged in the proper format. We are privileged to have many seforim from the rishonim and achronim as well as contemporary authors and lecturers who discuss them. The proper format is a serious forum with the participation of those who are knowledgeable on the subject, and there are plenty who are. Contrast that with this thread, where Jews and Catholics are discussing comparative religion (are you really trying to convince Chaimmoskowitz of the superiority of the Jewish tradition?), and discussions of a problematic Rambam that most forum participants never even heard of, and only one apparently knows where to look to conclude that the Rambam doesn’t exist, and this forum is clearly not the place for this.


That was the (admittedly rather crude) analogy to an adult thread which clearly doesn’t belong here; it was not meant to impugn  questions of emunah in general.

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 27, 2018, 05:24:36 PM
Actually yes. I have received many PM's explaining to me what I was asking wasn't appropriate and I stopped.

I'm discussing judaism.. feel free to partake. I have no interest in discussing other religions :)

in terms of ism's. the #1 false religion is materialism.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 05:41:08 PM
Actually yes. I have received many PM's explaining to me what I was asking wasn't appropriate and I stopped.
I think you have an admission to make. Or just continue having fun
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 05:45:59 PM
Since when is this not the proper place? No one is trying to convince anyone of anything here. We are JS, Just Shmoozing. These topics do come up in normal conversation so why is DDF not a proper forum? Maybe I'm slow and dont get it. Shabbos, Yom Tov, Kashrus, Minhagim are all fair game, but basic questions in emunah are not. Sounds alot like the yeshivas I'm familiar with.

If you normally shmooze with catholic buddies about your respective traditions and their validity then I guess I get why you think this is a legitimate venue.

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 05:55:38 PM
What answers are you looking for? Maybe we can help each other out as I am looking for answers also.
I think chevron wants to know if modern Catholicism puts too much focus on new fangled interpretations and stringencies, straying from its mesorah (age old interpretation of its tenets) as he believes Orthodox Judaism is currently doing. :)
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 06:05:09 PM
I think chevron wants to know if modern Catholicism puts too much focus on new fangled interpretations and stringencies, straying from its mesorah (age old interpretation of its tenets) as he believes Orthodox Judaism is currently doing. :)
I thought the question was if a logical person would believe a story that has been passed from generation to generation over thousands of years would never change.  :)

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 06:16:06 PM
I hate when you are trying to respond and the OP deletes the post.  :)
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 06:26:26 PM
I didnt research other religions, but ive researched judaism in ways that give me more answers and faith than Christianity and Islam.

Both are inherently flawed any are sub cultures of the hebrew religion. As neither are idol worship (different debate if Christianity is avoda zara) its fine for a non jew to believe in Shituf.

Since you seem to want it expounded upon I’ll oblige.
Actually if you researched Catholicism you would know that it’s not so simple to say it is not idol worship (as opposed to other branches of Christianity which many hold are avoda Zara; both of which are prohibited for a non Jew) . Many Protestants and other denominations consider the Catholics adoration (bowing etc.) to statues of Mary and others as idol worship. Then there is the doctrine of transubstantiation which the Catholic Church believes in, considering the Eucharist to be the bread and wine changing into the actual body and blood of J. As long as they are extant, they consider them to be the actual J. and not just symbolism.When they worship it or when it is placed in the tabernacle and adored many other Christians consider it to be bona  fide idol worship...
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 06:49:02 PM
Since you seem to want it expounded upon I’ll oblige.
Actually if you researched Catholicism you would know that it’s not so simple to say it is not idol worship (as opposed to other branches of Christianity which many hold are avoda Zara; both of which are prohibited for a non Jew) . Many Protestants and other denominations consider the Catholics adoration (bowing etc.) to statues of Mary and others as idol worship. Then there is the doctrine of transubstantiation which the Catholic Church believes in, considering the Eucharist to be the bread and wine changing into the actual body and blood of J. As long as they are extant, they consider them to be the actual J. and not just symbolism.When they worship it or when it is placed in the tabernacle and adored many other Christians consider it to be bona  fide idol worship...
I didn't think my ignorance toward another religion could be surpassed.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 27, 2018, 07:02:02 PM
I didn't think my ignorance toward another religion could be surpassed.
Mods can we PLEASE have this thread finally renamed.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 07:04:59 PM
Mods can we PLEASE have this thread finally renamed.
For some reason when I get a notification it comes up different each time.
"how did chaggai live so long if he isn't mentioned?"
"Torah stuff I don't understand"
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 07:32:14 PM
I didn't think my ignorance toward another religion could be surpassed.
Ok let’s take a look. I am aware that Catholics don’t view it that way. Many other denominations do...
Rather than linking to many sources that definitely don’t belong on this forum here’s a few simple quotes from Wikipedia:

“The manufacture of images of J, the Virgin Mary and Christian saints, along with prayers directed to these has been widespread among the Catholic faithful”.[73]

   
“The idolatry debate has been one of the defining differences between Papal Catholicism and Anti-papal Protestantism.[74] The anti-papal writers have prominently questioned the worship practices and images supported by Catholics, with many Protestant scholars listing it as the "one religious error larger than all others". The sub-list of erring practices have included among other things Mariolatry or the worship of Virgin Mary as a form of idolatry, the Catholic mass, the invocation of saints, and the reverence expected for and expressed to Pope himself.[74] The charges of idolatry against the Roman Catholics were leveled by a diverse group of Protestants, from the Church of England to John Calvin in Geneva.[74][75]”



“Protestants often accuse Catholics of idolatry, iconolatry, and even paganism for failing to "cleanse their faith" of the use of images; in the Protestant Reformation such language was common to all Protestants. In some cases, such as the Puritan groups denounced all forms of religious objects, whether in three-dimensional or two-dimensional form, including the Christian cross.[77]”


“The Eucharist in the Catholic Church is the celebration of Mass, the eucharistic liturgy. The term Eucharist is also used for the bread and wine when transubstantiated (their substance having been changed), according to Catholic teaching, into the body and blood of J. "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, -instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood."[1]”

Blessed Sacrament is a devotional term used in the Roman Catholic Church to refer to the eucharistic species (the Body and Blood of -).[2] Consecrated hosts are kept in a tabernacle after Mass, so that the Blessed Sacrament can be brought to the sick and dying outside the time of Mass. This makes possible also the practice of eucharistic adoration.

Adoration is a sign of devotion to and worship of J, who is believed by Catholics to be present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, under the appearance of the consecrated host, that is, sacramental bread. From a theological perspective, the adoration is a form of latria (internal worship) , based on the tenet of the real presence of - in the -.[1]

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 07:35:54 PM
Ok let’s take a look.
Would it fair for me post how some Muslims view Judaism?
Title: DavidRotts63 Cant figure Out why this thread title changes
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:36:25 PM
Ok let’s take a look. I am aware that Catholics don’t view it that way. Many other denominations do...
Rather than linking to many sources that definitely don’t belong on this forum here’s a few simple quotes from Wikipedia:

“The manufacture of images of J, the Virgin Mary and Christian saints, along with prayers directed to these has been widespread among the Catholic faithful”.[73]

   
“The idolatry debate has been one of the defining differences between Papal Catholicism and Anti-papal Protestantism.[74] The anti-papal writers have prominently questioned the worship practices and images supported by Catholics, with many Protestant scholars listing it as the "one religious error larger than all others". The sub-list of erring practices have included among other things Mariolatry or the worship of Virgin Mary as a form of idolatry, the Catholic mass, the invocation of saints, and the reverence expected for and expressed to Pope himself.[74] The charges of idolatry against the Roman Catholics were leveled by a diverse group of Protestants, from the Church of England to John Calvin in Geneva.[74][75]”



“Protestants often accuse Catholics of idolatry, iconolatry, and even paganism for failing to "cleanse their faith" of the use of images; in the Protestant Reformation such language was common to all Protestants. In some cases, such as the Puritan groups denounced all forms of religious objects, whether in three-dimensional or two-dimensional form, including the Christian cross.[77]”


“The Eucharist in the Catholic Church is the celebration of Mass, the eucharistic liturgy. The term Eucharist is also used for the bread and wine when transubstantiated (their substance having been changed), according to Catholic teaching, into the body and blood of J. "At the Last Supper, on the night he was betrayed, -instituted the Eucharistic sacrifice of his Body and Blood."[1]”

Blessed Sacrament is a devotional term used in the Roman Catholic Church to refer to the eucharistic species (the Body and Blood of -).[2] Consecrated hosts are kept in a tabernacle after Mass, so that the Blessed Sacrament can be brought to the sick and dying outside the time of Mass. This makes possible also the practice of eucharistic adoration.

Adoration is a sign of devotion to and worship of J, who is believed by Catholics to be present Body, Blood, Soul, and Divinity, under the appearance of the consecrated host, that is, sacramental bread. From a theological perspective, the adoration is a form of latria (internal worship) , based on the tenet of the real presence of - in the -.[1]
Umm, is it me or is DDF not the place to be exposing temimusdig, kodosh v'tahor, DDF readers to Trinity theology.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 07:37:32 PM
For some reason when I get a notification it comes up different each time.
"how did chaggai live so long if he isn't mentioned?"
"Torah stuff I don't understand"
Who's trolling me like that???
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:37:58 PM
Would it fair for me post how some Muslims view Judaism?
The ones hiding behind the box tree or the dhimmi?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:38:53 PM
Who's trolling me like that???
Was just showing you how its done. And HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A TROLL. YOURE THE KING OF TROLLS.  ;D ;D
Title: I will have a lot of fun with this
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 07:39:59 PM
Was just showing you how its done. And HOW DARE YOU CALL ME A TROLL. YOURE THE KING OF TROLLS.  ;D ;D
What?? How did you do that?
(glad we can do this with a )
ETA: I see now, not on Tapa.
Title: Troll Troll Troll Troll
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:42:26 PM
What?? How did you do that?
(glad we can do this with a )
ETA: I see now, not on Tapa.
Desktop Go forth and prosper.
Title: I'm not a troll😤😤😤😤😤😤
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 07:44:47 PM
Desktop Go forth and prosper.
God! I love this.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 07:46:04 PM
Would it fair for me post how some Muslims view Judaism?
?????
Chevron made a statement that there is definitely no idolatry in Christianity. I responded that that is subject to debate. Indeed a good part of the worlds Christians do consider it to be idolatry. I have no personal opinion on the matter since I am not a catholic or a Protestant....
Title: You can run but you cant hide
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:49:21 PM
God! I love this.
No mentioning the Diety, please. DDF is not the place. Its a cesspool v'chulhu v'chulhu
Title: Re: DavidRotts63 Cant figure Out why this thread title changes
Post by: yzj on February 27, 2018, 07:49:28 PM
Umm, is it me or is DDF not the place to be exposing temimusdig, kodosh v'tahor, DDF readers to Trinity theology.

Just commenting on chevrons assumption as well as taking the comparative religion discussion that was going on to the next level...

I don’t think this entire thread should be on DDF
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:50:03 PM
?????
Chevron made a statement that there is definitely no idolatry in Christianity. I responded that that is subject to debate. Indeed a good part of the worlds Christians do consider it to be idolatry. I have no personal opinion on the matter since I am not a catholic or a Protestant....
You seem to have many opinions...
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 07:52:23 PM
?????
Chevron made a statement that there is definitely no idolatry in Christianity. I responded that that is subject to debate. Indeed a good part of the worlds Christians do consider it to be idolatry. I have no personal opinion on the matter since I am not a catholic or a Protestant....
Many parts of the world believe the blood libel stories among others. Do you see me posting that BS then hiding behind "I have no personal opinion on the matter since I am not Jewish"?
Title: Re: DavidRotts63 Cant figure Out why this thread title changes
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:52:36 PM

I don’t think this entire thread should be on DDF
You have still not made a coherent argument why it should not be here. You dont like comparative religion...thats not what this was. There were some serious emunah questions raised. Is that something that you're uncomfortable with? Why doesnt it belong here?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 07:56:42 PM
I think we need @aygart  :)
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: hvaces42 on February 27, 2018, 07:57:52 PM
I think we need @aygart  :)
And there you go pulling you're LOR out to beat us all into submission. UNCLE!!!!
Title: Hvaces42 is a cool guy when we aren't fighting.
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 07:58:29 PM
No mentioning the Diety, please. DDF is not the place. Its a cesspool v'chulhu v'chulhu
ALOL
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 27, 2018, 08:11:17 PM
I think we need @aygart  :)
To comment on Catholicism? No thanks.
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 27, 2018, 08:17:28 PM
To comment on Catholicism? No thanks.
Can Will you comment if Judaism views Catholicism as idol worship?
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 27, 2018, 08:19:41 PM
Can Will you comment if Judaism views Catholicism as idol worship?
is Purim what's making PC all week?
Title: Re: DavidRotts63 Cant figure Out why this thread title changes
Post by: eyj on February 27, 2018, 08:25:23 PM
You have still not made a coherent argument why it should not be here. You dont like comparative religion...thats not what this was. There were some serious emunah questions raised. Is that something that you're uncomfortable with? Why doesnt it belong here?

Here’s what I think would be a reasonable standard of what belongs.

“Stam Yayim, tznius, x minhag is rediculous and a corruption of the mesorah”= no good.

I don’t understand x minhag in light of y. Can someone explain?= good.

This part of the Torah/ Gemara/ rishonim doesn׳t make sense/ isn’t believable= no good

I have a problem understanding x in light of y or because it seems to defy logic etc. can someone provide sources/ explain it to me in a way that makes sense to me= good

Lubavitcher Meshichistin are  Ovdei Avoda Zara and aren’t real Jews= no good

Can some explain how the lubavitcher Meshichistin reconcile x with y? = good

The x Jews think they have the answers but they are hypocrites because they talk in shul= no good

I have a hard time understanding how Jews who believe in hashem talk in shul= good
Etc. etc.

Does that sound like a reasonable standard for the forums?

Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: aygart on February 27, 2018, 08:34:40 PM
Can Will you comment if Judaism views Catholicism as idol worship?
My understanding is that most authorities from before Protestantism were of the opinion that it is not idolatry for gentiles but is for Jews but I cannot say that I really ever researched that extensively as it has few practical ramifications.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 27, 2018, 11:51:23 PM
Is that title better?

Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 28, 2018, 12:08:56 AM
?????
Chevron made a statement that there is definitely no idolatry in Christianity. I responded that that is subject to debate. Indeed a good part of the worlds Christians do consider it to be idolatry. I have no personal opinion on the matter since I am not a catholic or a Protestant....

No,
I said it was a debate if christianity is avoda zara

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/89/is-christianity-avodah-zara

Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 12:17:31 AM
Is that title better?
Thank you.

Almost anything is better than the original. I feel almost drunk from relief, that I can't think straight whether this is accurate.  ;)
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: yzj on February 28, 2018, 12:19:35 AM
No,
I said it was a debate if christianity is avoda zara

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/89/is-christianity-avodah-zara

I didnt research other religions, but ive researched judaism in ways that give me more answers and faith than Christianity and Islam.

Both are inherently flawed any are sub cultures of the hebrew religion. As neither are idol worship (different debate if Christianity is avoda zara) its fine for a non jew to believe in Shituf.



I wonder if any judaic legit sources believe malachim have free will and power on their own

Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that it was debatable if shituf is Avoda Zara but there is definitely no actual idol worship, which would certainly be a problem for a non Jew, hence my reply....
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 12:21:23 AM
No,
I said it was a debate if christianity is avoda zara

https://judaism.stackexchange.com/questions/89/is-christianity-avodah-zara
May I suggest that we don't engage in that debate, which probably requires knowledge and information, beyond what the most Jews are Halachicaly permitted to study.
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 28, 2018, 12:22:03 AM
Perhaps I misunderstood you. I thought you were saying that it was debatable if shituf is Avoda Zara but there is definitely no actual idol worship, which would certainly be a problem for a non Jew, hence my reply....

ok my bad. Different versions of Christianity differ. If we hold that shituf is ok for a goy, than yes certain christians are not oved avoda zara...

Wait, wheres my stam yayin ;)
Title: Re: How does it make sense that Chaggai lived for so long but isn't mentioned?
Post by: chevron on February 28, 2018, 12:23:33 AM
May I suggest that we don't engage in that debate, which probably requires knowledge and information beyond what the most Jews are Halachicaly permitted to study.

I only went there for

Quote
Quote
There is a dispute among the posekim as to whether shittuf is permitted to non-Jews. (This has ramifications, for example, concerning the laws of yayin nesech, doing business with them on their holidays, etc.).

Give me my wine back and i'll go away
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: chevron on February 28, 2018, 12:24:37 AM
Can Will you comment if Judaism views Catholicism as idol worship?


I know a 5bm method and a chase 5/24 work around... ;) oh I have ADD
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on February 28, 2018, 12:26:30 AM

I know a 5bm method and a chase 5/24 work around... ;) oh I have ADD
YHPM
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yzj on February 28, 2018, 12:27:55 AM
Is that title better?
Thank you
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: 12HRS on February 28, 2018, 12:40:07 AM
Thank you.

Almost anything is better than the original. I feel almost drunk from relief, that I can't think straight whether this is accurate.  ;)

Should have waited 2 more days then.

I wonder if any judaic legit sources believe malachim have free will and power on their own

Yes. Just don't ask me to find them...
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on February 28, 2018, 02:19:09 AM
My understanding is that most authorities from before Protestantism were of the opinion that it is not idolatry for gentiles but is for Jews but I cannot say that I really ever researched that extensively as it has few practical ramifications.

It’s actually pretty complicated, since the idea of transubstantiation was not formally adopted in its current form until 1215, long after Rashi, the Rambam, and many of the Rishonim lived. (Tosafos Avoda Zara 50b describes loaves that are given to priests to supply them with food, he is clearly not referring to the Eucharist.) Whether the idea of transubstantiation was widely accepted before that date or not is debated by the Catholics/Protestants . The bottom line is that assuming that shituf  is in concept allowed for a non Jew, Catholicism for a non Jew would appear to be more problematic than Protestantism as far as the Noahide laws are concerned; even if one were to accept the Catholic explanation of why what they do isn’t considered idolatry according to their faith, (without going into details) that idea might very well be a violation of the Noahide laws of Idol worship according to the Jewish faith . Ask your Local Orthodox Noahide Expert :)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yakov116 on February 28, 2018, 05:00:14 AM
Is that title better?
Thank you!
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 08:29:16 AM
Is a strong desire to gain money and wealth; greed be a form of idolatry? What about a very strong desire to gain fame or recognition?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yzj on February 28, 2018, 09:05:14 AM
Is a strong desire to gain money and wealth; greed be a form of idolatry? What about a very strong desire to gain fame or recognition?
In a figurative sense the above is described as “serving an untold number of idols”. The root of it is something akin to idolatry. One who gets angry is figuratively “considered to be engaged in idolatry” as well. Technically, however, in either of the above cases he is not actually violating the Noahide laws in practice.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 10:12:41 AM
Is a strong desire to gain money and wealth; greed be a form of idolatry? What about a very strong desire to gain fame or recognition?
For a Jew it might be a derivative of idolatry, as it attributes power to anything but the Omnipotent, blessed be He. Though definitely not punishable by an earthly court at any time.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:16:11 AM
For a Jew it might be a derivative of idolatry...
That's what I was asking. TY!
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 10:17:53 AM
For a Jew it might be a derivative of idolatry, as it attributes power to anything but the Omnipotent, blessed be He. Though definitely not punishable by an earthly court at any time.
How does wanting a lot of money attribute power to it?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 10:21:35 AM
How does wanting a lot of money attribute power to it?
Why would anyone want money?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:22:55 AM
Front row seat to a heavyweight fight. Pass the popcorn.  :)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 10:24:33 AM
Why would anyone want money?
To buy steak at Shallots
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 10:29:33 AM
Front row seat to a heavyweight fight. Pass the popcorn.  :)
It's a fast day.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:34:17 AM
It's a fast day.
Minor, correct?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 10:38:49 AM
Minor, correct?
Yes.

To buy steak at Shallots
Being that I was never at Shallots, and even if I was there I wouldn't be likely to buy steak there, we need to page @Dan to chime in, as one of our resident experts on this (http://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article_cdo/aid/2640660/jewish/I-Will-Choose-the-King.htm), who actually might have an opinion about buying steak at Shallots, which I don't.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 10:40:23 AM
Yes.
Being that I was never at Shallots, and even if I was there I wouldn't be likely to buy steak there, we need to page @Dan to chime in, as one of our resident experts on this (http://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article_cdo/aid/2640660/jewish/I-Will-Choose-the-King.htm), who actually might have an opinion about buying steak at Shallots, which I don't.
Fine, to buy herring and mashke.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:41:30 AM
If todays fast would fall on Saturday would you just move it to another day like the Catholics do for some of their fasts?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on February 28, 2018, 10:43:54 AM
If todays fast would fall on Saturday would you just move it to another day like the Catholics do for some of their fasts?
Yes. The previous Thursday.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:46:56 AM
Yes. The previous Thursday.
Don't you just love how all religions just make up rules?  :)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yzj on February 28, 2018, 10:48:29 AM
How does wanting a lot of money attribute power to it?

To quote the Chovos Halevavos
 ויש יתרון להעובד כוכבים על החנף בארבעה דברים. אחד מהם כי העובד כוכבים בזמן שאין חזון איננו מוזהר ע"י נביא שיברר אצלו הפסד מחשבתו באותות ובמופתים אבל המחניף בתורת האלהים יש עליו טענה במה שקבל מן המצות בעבודת האלהים וההזהרה מעבודת זולתו. והשני כי העובד כוכבים עובד מי שאינו ממרה את האלהים אבל המחניף בתורת האלהים עובד מי שממרה את האלהים . והשלישי כי העובד כוכבים הוא עובד דבר אחד בלבד והחנף אין תכלית לנעבדיו

Some who has greed for money etc. will almost always fall into the above category.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: shapsam on February 28, 2018, 10:49:24 AM
Don't you just love how all religions just make up rules?  :)
Its made up by the same people that made it a fast day in the first place.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 10:49:35 AM
Don't you just love how all religions just make up rules?  :)
Nah, they just take them from the original monotheistic :P
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on February 28, 2018, 10:49:46 AM
Fine, to buy herring and mashke.

Taking a break. In the meantime:

(https://i.imgur.com/J3ajKjr.png)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:53:14 AM
Its made up by the same people that made it a fast day in the first place.
Exactly!!!
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 10:56:14 AM
Nah, they just take them from the original monotheistic :P
Since you mentioned that can I get your take on Henotheism?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: shapsam on February 28, 2018, 11:04:35 AM
Exactly!!!
But there are reasons for all of it, its not just because someone thought it would be more convenient.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 11:13:39 AM
Since you mentioned that can I get your take on Henotheism?
what about it?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:13:54 AM
But there are reasons for all of it, its not just because someone thought it would be more convenient.
We can justify anything and do it all the time.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:17:43 AM
what about it?
I am going to assume you worship one G-d.  ;)
Are you open to the existence or possible existence of other deities?
Is it possible Jews and Catholics pray to the same G-d?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 11:20:22 AM
I am going to assume you worship one G-d.  ;)
Are you open to the existence or possible existence of other deities? no
Is it possible Jews and Catholics pray to the same G-d? yes (leaving out  whether possibly Catholics are considered Henotheism in Judaism)
Answers above
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:20:40 AM
Is it possible Jews and Catholics pray to the same G-d?
If they pray to hashem then sure. Otherwise no we don't believe other gods are a possibility.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:23:12 AM
Answers above
I missed them or am not understanding.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:23:35 AM
I missed them or am not understanding.
He answered inside the quote...
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: shapsam on February 28, 2018, 11:23:54 AM
We can justify anything and do it all the time.
No one needs any justification, that's how it was implemented in the first place for very specific reasons.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:26:36 AM
If they pray to hashem then sure. Otherwise no we don't believe other gods are a possibility.
So even if there are things we can never understand you don't think it is a possibility, interesting.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:27:31 AM
No one needs any justification, that's how it was implemented in the first place for very specific reasons.
CM doesn't understand that not everything is yes or no sometime an accompanying reason is necessary to understand the framework of the answer. If he knew the chidush would be that one is allowed to fast on shabbos, then maybe he'd think differently.

@ChaimMoskowitz

Have you seen this:

A young man in his mid-twenties knocks on the door of the noted scholar Rabbi Shwartz. “My name is Sean Goldstein,” he says. “I’ve come to you because I wish to study Talmud.”

“Do you know Aramaic?” the rabbi asks.

“No,” replies the young man.

“Hebrew?” asks the Rabbi.

“No,” replies the young man again.

“Have you studied Torah?” asks the Rabbi, growing a bit irritated.

“No, Rabbi. But don’t worry. I graduated Berkeley summa cum laude in philosophy, and just finished my doctoral dissertation at Harvard on Socratic logic. So now, I would just like to round out my education with a little study of the Talmud.”

“I seriously doubt,” the rabbi says, “that you are ready to study Talmud. It is the deepest book of our people. If you wish, however, I am willing to examine you in logic, and if you pass that test I will teach you Talmud.”

The young man agrees.

Rabbi Shwartz holds up two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

The young man stares at the rabbi. “Is that the test in logic?”

The rabbi nods.

”The one with the dirty face washes his face,“ he answers wearily.

“Wrong. The one with the clean face washes his face. Examine the simple logic.The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his face is dirty. So the one with the clean face washes his face.”

“Very clever,” Goldstein says. “Give me another test.”

The rabbi again holds up two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

“We have already established that. The one with the clean face washes his face.”

“Wrong. Each one washes his face. Examine the simple logic. The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his face is dirty. So the one with the clean face washes his face. When the one with the dirty face sees the one with the clean face wash his face, he also washes his face. So each one washes his face.”

“I didn’t think of that,” says Goldstein. It’s shocking to me that I could make an error in logic. Test me again.”

The rabbi holds up two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

“Each one washes his face.”

“Wrong. Neither one washes his face. Examine the simple logic. The one with the dirty face looks at the one with the clean face and thinks his face is clean. The one with the clean face looks at the one with the dirty face and thinks his face is dirty. But when the one with the clean face sees the one with the dirty face doesn’t wash his face, he also doesn’t wash his face. So neither one washes his face.”

Goldstein is desperate. “I am qualified to study Talmud. Please give me one more test.”

He groans, though, when the rabbi lifts two fingers. “Two men come down a chimney. One comes out with a clean face, the other comes out with a dirty face. Which one washes his face?”

“Neither one washes his face.”

“Wrong. Do you now see, Sean, why Socratic logic is an insufficient basis for studying Talmud? Tell me, how is it possible for two men to come down the same chimney, and for one to come out with a clean face and the other with a dirty face? Don’t you see? The whole question is "narishkeit", foolishness, and if you spend your whole life trying to answer foolish questions, all your answers will be foolish, too.”
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:27:58 AM
So even if there are things we can never understand you don't think it is a possibility, interesting.
That is where emunah comes into play. And it is a basic tenet of Judaism...
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:28:55 AM
He answered inside the quote...
I was right.  :)
I missed them...
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:29:39 AM
That is where emunah comes into play. And it is a basic tenet of Judaism...
emunah = faith in this context?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:30:18 AM
emunah = faith in this context?
In short, yes.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:34:36 AM
In short, yes.
I guess we have a different definition of faith then.  ;)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:36:24 AM
Have you seen this:
Several twists of the same story.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:38:06 AM
No one needs any justification, that's how it was implemented in the first place for very specific reasons.
Implemented by man. Man is corrupt.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:41:34 AM
I guess we have a different definition of faith then.  ;)
Thank you. Now you can understand why a simple detention simply doesn't work. Emunah doesn't just mean faith. It means emunah and it has thousands of scholarly articles on what it's halachic and torah definition includes.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:45:59 AM
Thank you. Now you can understand why a simple detention simply doesn't work. Emunah doesn't just mean faith. It means emunah and it has thousands of scholarly articles on what it's halachic and torah definition includes.
Then explain to me what it means to you in the context you used it.

Here is mine: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yzj on February 28, 2018, 11:51:09 AM
Since you mentioned that can I get your take on Henotheism?
We believe that attributing divinity to anything other than G-d necessarily redefines Him to something other than the singular, all encompassing, infinite, limitless existence that defines Him...

Given the above
“Is it possible Jews and Catholics pray to the same G-d?”
When a Catholic chooses to pray to hashem one could make that statement in a general sense, but the precise answer is no.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 11:54:39 AM
Then explain to me what it means to you in the context you used it.

Here is mine: strong belief in God or in the doctrines of a religion, based on spiritual apprehension rather than proof.
Even according to your definition emunah in torah doctrine wouldn't allow for the possibility of another god. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. One of our most famous verses would negate that possibility.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 11:58:15 AM
Even according to your definition emunah in torah doctrine wouldn't allow for the possibility of another god. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. One of our most famous verses would negate that possibility.
All I did is ask for your definition. If you don't want to answer that, fine.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on February 28, 2018, 12:05:18 PM
Implemented by man. Man is corruptable.
FTFUs. We don't believe in original sin
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 12:12:48 PM
FTFUs. We don't believe in original sin
No need to ask about Baptism then.  :)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 12:48:27 PM
All I did is ask for your definition. If you don't want to answer that, fine.
Can you accept that there isn't a simple definition without a comprehensive understanding of the framework on torah and halacha? And that framework can take hundreds or thousands of hours of study.

Just to say faith and not understand what that faith entails is not defining emunah in context.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1398519/jewish/Emunah.htm
https://www.ou.org/life/inspiration/difference-emunah-bitachon/
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: eyj on February 28, 2018, 12:49:36 PM
Is a strong desire to gain money and wealth; greed be a form of idolatry?

Reminds me of the oldie but goodie:

Two beggars are sitting side by side on a street in Rome.

One has a cross in front of him; the other one the Star of David. Many people go by and look at both beggars, but only put money into the hat of the beggar sitting behind the cross.

A priest comes by, stops and watches throngs of people giving money to the beggar behind the cross, but none give to the beggar behind the Star of David.

Finally, the priest goes over to the beggar behind the Star of David and says, "My poor fellow, don't you understand? This is a Catholic country; this city is the seat of Catholicism. People aren't going to give you money if you sit there with a Star of David in front of you, especially when you're sitting beside a beggar who has a cross. In fact, they would probably give to him just out of spite."

The beggar behind the Star of David listened to the priest, turned to the other beggar with the cross and said: "Moishe, look who's trying to teach the Goldstein brothers about marketing!
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: shiframeir on February 28, 2018, 12:57:58 PM
Even according to your definition emunah in torah doctrine wouldn't allow for the possibility of another god. Hear, O Israel: the LORD our God, the LORD is one. One of our most famous verses would negate that possibility.
Reb JJ can you explain your point more? are you saying shmah is proof of the possibility for other gods (thus the need for us to affirm our allegiance) or otherwise?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on February 28, 2018, 12:59:01 PM
Can you accept that there isn't a simple definition without a comprehensive understanding of the framework on torah and halacha? And that framework can take hundreds or thousands of hours of study.

Just to say faith and not understand what that faith entails is not defining emunah in context.

http://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1398519/jewish/Emunah.htm
https://www.ou.org/life/inspiration/difference-emunah-bitachon/
I actually read the first link before. I guess you are saying in the content you used it faith is not what you meant. Emunah goes way past faith.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 01:04:15 PM
Reb JJ can you explain your point more? are you saying shmah is proof of the possibility for other gods (thus the need for us to affirm our allegiance) or otherwise?
Emunah in shema shows Henotheism is not possible in Judaism.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jj1000 on February 28, 2018, 01:05:24 PM
Emunah goes way past faith.
Yes, for sure. It's much deeper in a person and more encompassing in what is included in it than just faith.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: DTM on March 06, 2018, 09:58:03 AM
Reminds me of the oldie but goodie:

Two beggars are sitting side by side on a street in Rome.

One has a cross in front of him; the other one the Star of David. Many people go by and look at both beggars, but only put money into the hat of the beggar sitting behind the cross.

A priest comes by, stops and watches throngs of people giving money to the beggar behind the cross, but none give to the beggar behind the Star of David.

Finally, the priest goes over to the beggar behind the Star of David and says, "My poor fellow, don't you understand? This is a Catholic country; this city is the seat of Catholicism. People aren't going to give you money if you sit there with a Star of David in front of you, especially when you're sitting beside a beggar who has a cross. In fact, they would probably give to him just out of spite."

The beggar behind the Star of David listened to the priest, turned to the other beggar with the cross and said: "Moishe, look who's trying to teach the Goldstein brothers about marketing!
😀👍
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: skyguy918 on March 06, 2018, 11:00:36 AM
😀👍
For some reason I always group that one in my mind with this bit (relevant joke is 6:03-7:37):
Title: Re: Torah stuff that doesnt make sense
Post by: yzj on March 06, 2018, 11:05:18 AM
My understanding is that most authorities from before Protestantism were of the opinion that it is not idolatry for gentiles but is for Jews but I cannot say that I really ever researched that extensively as it has few practical ramifications.
This is incorrect.

Those learning Daf Hayomi may want to take a look at an interesting tosfos on the bottom of 50a, today’s Daf, where tosfos discusses the various items the Christians used and their status vis a vi takroves; the censors, the chalice, the vestments, the candles from Candlemas, etc. It is clear that tosfos, and the many rishonim who categorize some of the above as Meshamshei Avodas Kochavim ( Rosh, Ran, Nimukei Yosef, Mordechai, and many others) hold that it is classified as idol worship. These halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch Y”D 139 and the Rama concurs with these halachos as well. This is one of many clear indications that the often quoted Rama that shituf is allowed for a non Jew is an error. The Rama simply allows business dealing that may cause a non Jew to take an oath in the name of J, since some rishonim hold that professing such belief in an of itself is allowed for a non Jew. However there is no source in the rishonim that allows actuall worship of shituf for a non Jew whatsoever. This is included in the prohibition of Avodah Zara for a Ben Noach. This is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of achronim (pri megadim 156, Chadian Sofer ibid, Noda Biyehuda, etc.) This is clear from the aforementioned halachos in Y”D 139....
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 06, 2018, 11:10:03 AM
This is incorrect.

Those learning Daf Hayomi may want to take a look at an interesting tosfos on the bottom of 50a, today’s Daf, where tosfos discusses the various items the Christians used and their status vis a vi takroves; the censors, the chalice, the vestments, the candles from Candlemas, etc. It is clear that tosfos, and the many rishonim who categorize some of the above as Meshamshei Avodas Kochavim ( Rosh, Ran, Nimukei Yosef, Mordechai, and many others) hold that it is classified as idol worship. These halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch Y”D 139 and the Rama concurs with these halachos as well. This is one of many clear indications that the often quoted Rama that shituf is allowed for a non Jew is an error. The Rama simply allows business dealing that may cause a non Jew to take an oath in the name of J, since some rishonim hold that professing such belief in an of itself is allowed for a non Jew. However there is no source in the rishonim that allows actuall worship of shituf for a non Jew whatsoever. This is included in the prohibition of Avodah Zara for a Ben Noach. This is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of achronim (pri megadim 156, Chadian Sofer ibid, Noda Biyehuda, etc.) This is clear from the aforementioned halachos in Y”D 139....
As I wrote, I never really researched extensively. Thank you for correcting me.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 06, 2018, 10:10:07 PM
This is incorrect.

Those learning Daf Hayomi may want to take a look at an interesting tosfos on the bottom of 50a, today’s Daf, where tosfos discusses the various items the Christians used and their status vis a vi takroves; the censors, the chalice, the vestments, the candles from Candlemas, etc. It is clear that tosfos, and the many rishonim who categorize some of the above as Meshamshei Avodas Kochavim ( Rosh, Ran, Nimukei Yosef, Mordechai, and many others) hold that it is classified as idol worship. These halachos are brought down in Shulchan Aruch Y”D 139 and the Rama concurs with these halachos as well. This is one of many clear indications that the often quoted Rama that shituf is allowed for a non Jew is an error. The Rama simply allows business dealing that may cause a non Jew to take an oath in the name of J, since some rishonim hold that professing such belief in an of itself is allowed for a non Jew. However there is no source in the rishonim that allows actuall worship of shituf for a non Jew whatsoever. This is included in the prohibition of Avodah Zara for a Ben Noach. This is the opinion of the overwhelming majority of achronim (pri megadim 156, Chadian Sofer ibid, Noda Biyehuda, etc.) This is clear from the aforementioned halachos in Y”D 139....
You left out the way the RMA ends that they are not mitzuve all hashituf.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/6401f369c012c08a7d5a162445d564fa.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/abc1171c2dd12c6e3bff8b102b3ec830.jpg)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 07, 2018, 04:13:14 PM
Are you allowed to eat cooked meat after it has been frozen?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 07, 2018, 04:14:38 PM
Are you allowed to eat cooked meat after it has been frozen?
That's Halacha, not Hashkofa, nor is it PC.
But the answer is yes.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 07, 2018, 04:16:14 PM
What's the difference between Halacha and Hashkofa?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 07, 2018, 04:17:26 PM
What's the difference between Halacha and Hashkofa?
That's a hard one. I believe you figured it out once somewhere. I'll let someone else answer tho.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 07, 2018, 04:19:16 PM
What's the difference between Halacha and Hashkofa?
Halacha is the rules and regs. Hashkofa is the theology. This is a very general and rough answer.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 07, 2018, 04:21:01 PM
Halacha is the rules and regs. Hashkofa is the theology. This is a very general and rough answer.
Although I'll quote R' Yisroel Belsky "Hashkofa is Halacha"
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 07, 2018, 04:21:40 PM
Halacha is the rules and regs. Hashkofa is the theology. This is a very general and rough answer.
Would Hashkofa be more of a worldwide view? It changes over time?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 07, 2018, 04:22:19 PM
Halacha is the rules and regs. Hashkofa is the theology. This is a very general and rough answer.
I'm sure you could come up with a better (even rough) translation for Hashkofa. I don't think theology is correct.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 07, 2018, 04:22:56 PM
Would Hashkofa be more of a worldwide view? It changes over time?
That might be a dictionary translation. We are talking Torah based Hashkofa.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 07, 2018, 04:24:04 PM
That might be a dictionary translation. We are talking Torah based Hashkofa.
So that would be a no?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yzj on March 07, 2018, 04:26:55 PM
You left out the way the RMA ends that they are not mitzuve all hashituf.

(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/6401f369c012c08a7d5a162445d564fa.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180307/abc1171c2dd12c6e3bff8b102b3ec830.jpg)

See the above mentioned achronim that the Rama meant that they are not metzuveh from proffering belief in shituf however they are muzhar to be physically  oved the shituf...
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 07, 2018, 04:32:36 PM
So that would be a no?
There you go again. Expecting a Jew to give you a simple Yes or No. Or a single line translation of a Hebrew/Jewish term.

Some people never learn.  ;)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 07, 2018, 04:35:19 PM
There you go again. Expecting a Jew to give you a simple Yes or No. Or a single line translation of a Hebrew/Jewish term.

Some people never learn.  ;)
Can we find him a Rosh Yeshiva to piss off?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 07, 2018, 04:40:58 PM
There you go again. Expecting a Jew to give you a simple Yes or No. Or a single line translation of a Hebrew/Jewish term.

Some people never learn.  ;)
I was expecting a clarification. 
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 07, 2018, 04:43:39 PM
I was expecting a clarification.
Oh. I know that. And once I can think of something that will satiate your hunger, I will gladly give it to you. It's just not at the tip of my tongue or top of my head at the moment. So in the meantime I took the liberty to have fund based on the title of this thread, and knowing you're a good sport.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 07, 2018, 04:45:59 PM
Oh. I know that. And once I can think of something that will satiate your hunger, I will gladly give it to you. It's just not at the tip of my tongue or top of my head at the moment. So in the meantime I took the liberty to have fund based on the title of this thread, and knowing you're a good sport.
Would "guiding philosophy" be more accurate? 
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 07, 2018, 04:57:42 PM
Would "guiding philosophy" be more accurate?
Not sure I'm comfortable with any noun that ends with a "y" though not fully excluding them.

The Hebrew root ש.ק.ף. definitely has a meaning of view/outlook/paradigm etc.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: eyj on March 18, 2018, 11:16:42 PM
This seems really strange to me. Is there a hetter for a frum company to invoke the name of a saint?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: chevron on March 18, 2018, 11:54:38 PM
Can I visit the Sistine chapel?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 19, 2018, 12:05:11 AM
CanAm I allowed to visit the Sistine chapel?
FTFY

Why not ask a Halachic authority you trust, rather than here?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: eyj on March 19, 2018, 12:05:32 AM
Can I visit the Sistine chapel?
According to YU’s Rabbi Herschel Schachter, no.
http://www.yutorah.org/lectures/lecture.cfm/748677/rabbi-hershel-schachter/jewish-heritage-tour-of-italy-part-9-of-12/
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: DTM on March 19, 2018, 09:55:13 AM

Why not ask a Halachic authority you trust, rather than here?
Because many do not have a convenient opportunity to ask a LOR, who often has as busy a schedule as we do, leaving little or no mutually convenient time. So we bounce it off our friends, google it or ask on our chat groups. Usually not really looking for a definitive psak Halacha.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 22, 2018, 08:37:32 AM
Can I visit the Sistine chapel?
Sure.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: shwarmabob on March 22, 2018, 09:34:00 AM
I was expecting a clarification.
Halacha is where we don't argue that much and we accept other's opinions. Hashkafah is weltanschauung, there we have very different opinions and most claim that he got it right and everyone else is just totally confused and wrong.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 09:35:15 AM
Halacha is where we don't argue that much and we accept other's opinions. Hashkafah is weltanschauung, there we have very different opinions and most claim that he got it right and everyone else is just totally confused and wrong.
I wish
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: shwarmabob on March 22, 2018, 09:53:27 AM
I wish
If the Shevet HaLevi has a more machmir psak than someone else that I follow, I can respectfully note or study his psak and still follow the more lenient psak. Likewise, if someone follows the Shevet HaLevi's psak it doesn't bother me at all, he has a valid opinion. You can substitute the name with any other halachic authority.
??
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: skyguy918 on March 22, 2018, 09:55:22 AM
Would Hashkofa be more of a worldwide view? It changes over time?
This might help a little bit.

http://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Halachic_Hashkafa
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 10:16:38 AM
If the Shevet HaLevi has a more machmir psak than someone else that I follow, I can respectfully note or study his psak and still follow the more lenient psak. Likewise, if someone follows the Shevet HaLevi's psak it doesn't bother me at all, he has a valid opinion. You can substitute the name with any other halachic authority.
??
That is how it should be but unfortunately you speak only for yourself.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 22, 2018, 10:18:44 AM
This might help a little bit.

http://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Halachic_Hashkafa
+1
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 10:56:46 AM
This might help a little bit.

http://halachipedia.com/index.php?title=Halachic_Hashkafa
My cousin has a great website there.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 11:08:28 AM
My cousin has a great website there.
Looks interesting, but something like this could become תקנתנו זוהי קלקלתנו, just ask doctors on what they have to deal with when patients come to them knowing everything from the internet, or worse when people do things based on what they read online, without checking with someone competent.

It is said that one of the reasons why in Lubavitch there is an effort to pass tests on Issur V'Heter before getting married is (not so that one can rule, but rather) so that one should know when to ask a shaala, and how to ask.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 11:10:43 AM
Looks interesting, but something like this could become תקנתנו זוהי קלקלתנו, just ask doctors on what they have to deal with when patients come to them knowing everything from the internet, or worse when people do things based on what they read online, without checking with someone competent.

It is said that one of the reasons why in Lubavitch there is an effort to pass tests on Issur V'Heter before getting married is (not so that one can rule, but rather) so that one should know when to ask a shaala, and how to ask.
Agreed. His thinking is that people are looking around online anyhow and they are better off with a site which will at least be accurate. With medical sites there are also the better and worse ones.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 11:20:22 AM
Agreed. His thinking is that people are looking around online anyhow and they are better off with a site which will at least be accurate. With medical sites there are also the better and worse ones.
That is similar to the reasoning to get tested on Issue V'Heter, which is the good thing about this site. Maybe adding some disclaimer (or call it guidance to appeal better to millennials) in the site title or logo, that proper Halacha requires one to ask a competent מורה הוראה, and that the benefit of the site is to be able to ask in a meaningful and educated way, bringing to light all pertinent details in the question.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 11:25:50 AM
That is similar to the reasoning to get tested on Issue V'Heter, which is the good thing about this site. Maybe adding some disclaimer (or call it guidance to appeal better to millennials) in the site title or logo, that proper Halacha requires one to ask a competent מורה הוראה, and that the benefit of the site is to be able to ask in a meaningful and educated way, bringing to light all pertinent details in the question.
He does discuss this on the about page, but you are right that it should be more prominent. I will mention it to him next time I see him.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: DTM on March 22, 2018, 11:27:45 AM
Agreed. His thinking is that people are looking around online anyhow and they are better off with a site which will at least be accurate. With medical sites there are also the better and worse ones.
+1
It is a fact of life nowadays that many people "Google" every question on every topic, or otherwise look to the web for information, and most know how to take results with a grain of salt and realize that websites may not be accurate (anyone can post anything) and are often trying to sell them something. It is a tool that can be very useful, but you just have to recognize and understand its limits. Eizeho chochm halomeid m'kol odom.   
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 11:47:20 AM
He does discuss this on the about page, but you are right that it should be more prominent. I will mention it to him next time I see him.
Next week on Tuesday (or is it Monday night?)  ;)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 11:53:28 AM
Next week on Tuesday (or is it Monday night?)  ;)
Nope
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 11:56:06 AM
Nope
He's coming to a farbrengen somewhere else for יא ניסן?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 12:00:37 PM
He's coming to a farbrengen somewhere else for יא ניסן?
Remind me what is on that date.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: chevron on March 22, 2018, 12:08:05 PM
wonder who answered this:

http://www.practicalhalacha.com/halacha/3125-entering_dual_use_church
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: JoeyShmoe on March 22, 2018, 12:08:51 PM
Remind me what is on that date.
The Rebbe's birthday!! How dare you not know that?

:) /s
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 12:11:32 PM
The Rebbe's birthday!! How dare you not know that?

:) /s
I guess that is only for people who know they are lubavitchers.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 12:20:20 PM
Remind me what is on that date.
Isn't that your son's Bar-Mitzvah?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 22, 2018, 12:22:41 PM
Isn't that your son's Bar-Mitzvah?
Yes, but I do not equate that with fabrengen.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 05:19:25 PM
Remind me what is on that date.
ביום עשתי עשר יום (http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/%D7%91%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D_%D7%A2%D7%A9%D7%AA%D7%99_%D7%A2%D7%A9%D7%A8_%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%9C%22%D7%90)

Was mentioned quite a few times on DDF. I just found a link to the original recording here (http://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?fromAdmin=yes&artID=96505). And English translation is available here (http://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article_cdo/aid/2640660/jewish/I-Will-Choose-the-King.htm).

Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 22, 2018, 08:41:51 PM
ביום עשתי עשר יום (http://chabadpedia.co.il/index.php/%D7%91%D7%99%D7%95%D7%9D_%D7%A2%D7%A9%D7%AA%D7%99_%D7%A2%D7%A9%D7%A8_%D7%AA%D7%A9%D7%9C%22%D7%90)

Was mentioned quite a few times on DDF. I just found a link to the original recording here (http://www.col.org.il/show_news.rtx?fromAdmin=yes&artID=96505). And English translation is available here (http://www.sie.org/templates/sie/article_cdo/aid/2640660/jewish/I-Will-Choose-the-King.htm).
What's so special about this?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 09:03:48 PM
What's so special about this?
Did you learn it?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 22, 2018, 09:56:59 PM
Did you learn it?
Skimed..
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 22, 2018, 10:36:29 PM
Skimed..
Is that regular english for skimmed?  ;)

In any event, I suggest you delve into it a little deeper. There's a reason it has been referred to quite a few times on DDF.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 22, 2018, 10:48:03 PM
Is that regular english for skimmed?  ;)
You are really obsessed with this.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 08:03:33 AM
Do miracles really happen?

"No. 11 Loyola's unbelievable run with Sister Jean at the spiritual helm, there's been no shortage of surprises this year."
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 08:47:37 AM
Do miracles really happen?

"No. 11 Loyola's unbelievable run with Sister Jean at the spiritual helm, there's been no shortage of surprises this year."
Why cant they just be a team on a good run? Why the need to attribute it to miracles or Sister Jean? Are people so desperate for comfort from their miserable lives that they need to see miracles in a basketball game?

By extension, was Cinderella a miracle story? Disney sure aint anywhere near my version of a deity.     
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 09:06:12 AM
Why cant they just be a team on a good run? Why the need to attribute it to miracles or Sister Jean? Are people so desperate for comfort from their miserable lives that they need to see miracles in a basketball game?

By extension, was Cinderella a miracle story? Disney sure aint anywhere near my version of a deity.   
Miracles can't happen in sports. Is there a list somewhere where miracles are only acceptable?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 09:11:24 AM
Miracles can't happen in sports. Is there a list somewhere where miracles are only acceptable?
The way I understand miracles, they're kind of reserved for real life issues, not to make sports fanatics' dreams come true. 
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 09:16:22 AM
The way I understand miracles, they're kind of reserved for real life issues, not to make sports fanatics' dreams come true.
That's an interesting take on miracles.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: skyguy918 on March 25, 2018, 09:22:49 AM
Obligatory.

https://youtu.be/9dMSvXE9Gxw
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 09:24:25 AM
That's an interesting take on miracles.
Unless you are referring to coincidence or happenstance as miracles, this wining streak, from a religious perspective really has no place in the realm of miracles.   
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: 12HRS on March 25, 2018, 09:45:27 AM
The way I understand miracles, they're kind of reserved for real life issues, not to make sports fanatics' dreams come true.

what if some person is so desperate in his life and is about to give up. bet all his money on them as one last shot... Is that a real life issue?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 09:53:22 AM
what if some person is so desperate in his life and is about to give up. bet all his money on them as one last shot... Is that a real life issue?
For sure, but not one that requires a miracle. That requires an interventions. I may know someone who can help with that.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 09:56:26 AM
For sure, but not one that requires a miracle. That requires an interventions. I may know someone who can help with that.
...but what if he wins and it saves his life?. Can it be because of a miracle?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 25, 2018, 09:59:31 AM
Unless you are referring to coincidence or happenstance as miracles, this wining streak, from a religious perspective really has no place in the realm of miracles.   
AFAIK he is a כל יכול no rules dictate when he does what.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 10:18:51 AM
...but what if he wins and it saves his life?. Can it be because of a miracle?
My position on this is very clear you know it.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 10:23:46 AM
AFAIK he is a כל יכול no rules dictate when he does what.
Of course he can the question is why would he
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 25, 2018, 10:25:29 AM
Of course he can the question is why would he
So now it's OK to question what G-ds reasoning behind his decisions are?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 11:05:31 AM
So now it's OK to question what G-ds reasoning behind his decisions are?
First of all, you can always question. You may not get satisfactory answers.

Secondly, what about this story makes it a miracle?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 25, 2018, 11:06:39 AM
First of all, you can always question. You may not get satisfactory answers.

Secondly, what about this story makes it a miracle?
You can question, but you can't deny that he may wish to do something

And no, I do not think this is a miracle I was asking in general
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 11:12:00 AM
You can question, but you can't deny that he may wish to do something

And no, I do not think this is a miracle I was asking in general
Who is denying? And again, why would he? If its to help the poor lad who bet all his money on this, I can hear it. But, thats really a stretch.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 25, 2018, 11:14:28 AM
Who is denying? And again, why would he? If its to help the poor lad who bet all his money on this, I can hear it. But, thats really a stretch.
My questioning was on this only.

The way I understand miracles, they're kind of reserved for real life issues, not to make sports fanatics' dreams come true.

Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 11:21:25 AM
My questioning was on this only.
And my response remains the same, possible, not probable.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 25, 2018, 11:22:30 AM
And my response remains the same, possible, not probable.
And on that I don't disagree :)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2018, 11:26:48 AM
The way I understand miracles, they're kind of reserved for real life issues, not to make sports fanatics' dreams come true.
+.5
Miracles can happen regarding anything the question is if they will. Judaism does not believe in indulgences which, from my limited understanding (CM can correct me if I am wrong), can be given out and gives the bearer a right to expect intervention to some extent. Miracles will only happen when hashem feels the need for it. That is unlikely to happen just to fulfill some support fan's dream.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 11:34:29 AM
(CM can correct me if I am wrong)
Not a chance. Some of us know our limitations.

I believe miracles can happen for any reason G-D chooses. That brings up an interesting dilemma for those like me that believe in 100% free will.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2018, 11:37:10 AM
Not a chance. Some of us know our limitations.

I believe miracles can happen for any reason G-D chooses. That brings up an interesting dilemma for those like me that believe in 100% free will.
That is not contradictory to what I wrote. To say that G-d made a miracle because he is a fan of that team is belittling.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: hvaces42 on March 25, 2018, 11:40:19 AM
Not a chance. Some of us know our limitations.

I believe miracles can happen for any reason G-D chooses. That brings up an interesting dilemma for those like me that believe in 100% free will.
Can you explain?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 11:51:51 AM
That is not contradictory to what I wrote.
Was not trying to say it was.
To say that G-d made a miracle because he is a fan of that team is belittling.
My point is I/we have no idea why miracles happen.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 25, 2018, 11:53:53 AM
Do miracles really happen?

"No. 11 Loyola's unbelievable run with Sister Jean at the spiritual helm, there's been no shortage of surprises this year."
Miracles do happen.

FTR, I have no idea what the quote you bring means, but I have been reading some of the discussion that ensued.

My .02:

G-d uses (in general) three ways to run his world.

1. Nature, which was created by G-d, with its infinitely complex set of rules and interactions. And which G-d decided to create and run the world most of the time, in a way that could conceal his hand, up to the extent of a Stephen Hawking denying G-d's existence. 
2. Miracles which are enclothed in nature, which means that for whatever reason G-d decided to tilt nature a certain way (out of various possibilities) which might not be obvious to be miraculous, but upon proper examination one might realize a divine intervention in a set of otherwise seemingly natural occurrences.
3. Miracles which appear in a way that is obvious to anyone, clearly going counter to what would be anticipated as a natural set of occurrences.

Regardless of which one of the methods above is used, it is all G-d's doing.

Our yearning for the ultimate redemption, is for a time where category 1 will no-longer conceal G-d's hand, but will actually reveal it to all in the most obvious way to all. That is why it is called in Hebrew גאולה, which contains all the letter of גולה - exile, with one added letter, an Aleph, which refers to G-d. The world will exist just as we know it today, but rather than conceal G-dliness, it will reveal it everywhere.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 11:55:54 AM
Can you explain?
If you believe in 100% free will like me everything happens because of the choices we make. A miracle can change that choice we make.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2018, 11:56:29 AM
Was not trying to say it was.My point is I/we have no idea why miracles happen.
Then we are close to the same page. He could make a team miraculously win in order to reward someone who is undeserving of a more substantive reward or the like
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 25, 2018, 12:00:17 PM
That is not contradictory to what I wrote. To say that G-d made a miracle because he is a fan of that team is belittling.
Chassidus teaches us that divine providence exists everywhere, including in a falling leaf.

I won't go into the "fan" discussion now, but G-d definitely has a purpose in everything that happens. It might not be the team, it might be the current discussion that ensued as a result, or it might be something totally different. We don't know. What we do know is that G-d runs the world in the way he sees fit, and it is up to us to choose to acknowledge it.

As mentioned above, I also know nothing about this team or what might have happened that CM might be referring to as a miracle. I don't see how it really matters if it's seen as a miracle or not.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on March 25, 2018, 12:02:04 PM
Chassidus teaches us that divine providence exists everywhere, including in a falling leaf.

I won't go into the "fan" discussion now, but G-d definitely has a purpose in everything that happens. It might not be the team, it might be the current discussion that ensued as a result, or it might be something totally different. We don't know. What we do know is that G-d runs the world in the way he sees fit, and it is up to us to choose to acknowledge it.

As mentioned above, I also know nothing about this team or what might have happened that CM might be referring to as a miracle. I don't see how it really matters if it's seen as a miracle or not.
Don't need chassidus for that one.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 12:03:08 PM
Then we are close to the same page. He could make a team miraculously win in order to reward someone who is undeserving of a more substantive reward or the like
I hope you don't think I was serious about a miracle in my OP.

It is just odd how we look at these things. Remember the post about the plane crash and the one passenger that didn't fly because of Shabbos? Some in that DDMS post called it a miracle. You think those same individuals that called it a miracle would feel the same way if it was a Catholic that didn't fly over Easter?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 25, 2018, 12:08:25 PM
It is just odd how we look at these things. Remember the post about the plane crash and the one passenger that didn't fly because of Shabbos? Some in that DDMS post called it a miracle. You think those same individuals that called it a miracle would feel the same way if it was a Catholic that didn't fly over Easter?

That is an interesting question. Maimonides might be alluding to such a question here (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-11.htm) (last 4 paragraphs).
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 12:16:26 PM
Maimonides might be alluding to such a question here (https://www.chabad.org/library/article_cdo/aid/1188356/jewish/Melachim-uMilchamot-Chapter-11.htm) (last 4 paragraphs).
Interesting read which as you might guess I don't agree with most of it. I do think we all can agree on this.
"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts."
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ExGingi on March 25, 2018, 12:20:47 PM
Interesting read which as you might guess I don't agree with most of it. I do think we all can agree on this.
"Nevertheless, the intent of the Creator of the world is not within the power of man to comprehend, for His ways are not our ways, nor are His thoughts, our thoughts."
I don't think you'll have one person disagreeing on that point. Even Stephen Hawking would probably agree on that (once he gets past his arrogance of trying to deny the Creator).
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 25, 2018, 12:25:11 PM
I don't think you'll have one person disagreeing on that point. Even Stephen Hawking would probably agree on that (once he gets past his arrogance of trying to deny the Creator).
Not sure why the uproar over him. He just believes in something else.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Definitions on May 27, 2018, 03:25:26 AM
Has anybody ever been bothered by the fact that in bamidbar and naso when klal yisroel is counted the numbers are always whole (mostly 100's and 1000's)? I find it extremely unprobable that if you take a few random groups of people that it will come out to such numbers by all of them.

I had this question for a long time and last year I finally found one sefer that speaks about it. If I remember correctly it was called באמונה שלמה. I unfortunately didn't go through it clearly because the sefer was in the bais medrash and I was embarrassed to be seen with it.

But I did see that he was totally against the one תירוץ that I thought of and liked the most. Understandably so, as I wasn't too excited to say it myself since it's a dangerous answer. I thought that maybe the exact numbers of people was actually higher than what was written down by some, just that it was rounded down. So each shevet had the numbers stated but possibly with more.

He wrote down that this answer is 100% kefira and the question is based on a misunderstanding of the basics in emuna. I barely remember anything he wrote. Something that it's not like there is a random number of people present rather it's that Hashem said that this is the amount of people (20+) that should be there or something like that. He also brought down a maharsha someplace that says a similar answer for something else and explains how that is different than this.

Anybody familiar?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Boruch999 on May 27, 2018, 06:25:31 AM
Has anybody ever been bothered by the fact that in bamidbar and naso when klal yisroel is counted the numbers are always whole (mostly 100's and 1000's)? I find it extremely unprobable that if you take a few random groups of people that it will come out to such numbers by all of them.

I had this question for a long time and last year I finally found one sefer that speaks about it. If I remember correctly it was called באמונה שלמה. I unfortunately didn't go through it clearly because the sefer was in the bais medrash and I was embarrassed to be seen with it.

But I did see that he was totally against the one תירוץ that I thought of and liked the most. Understandably so, as I wasn't too excited to say it myself since it's a dangerous answer. I thought that maybe the exact numbers of people was actually higher than what was written down by some, just that it was rounded down. So each shevet had the numbers stated but possibly with more.

He wrote down that this answer is 100% kefira and the question is based on a misunderstanding of the basics in emuna. I barely remember anything he wrote. Something that it's not like there is a random number of people present rather it's that Hashem said that this is the amount of people (20+) that should be there or something like that. He also brought down a maharsha someplace that says a similar answer for something else and explains how that is different than this.

Anybody familiar?

I've had this question for a while.

That the numbers were rounded occurred to me and without seeing his argument, I can't see why that would be kefira.  The Torah rounds numbers elsewhere.  Moshe Rabbenu said שש מאות אלף רגלי, forty makos.  However, I disregarded this as answer because the counting of the Leviim also comes to a round number and is clearly not rounded as seen from the cheshbon of bechorim vs Leviim.

The medrish (precises source would be appreciated) says that at matan torah am yisrael saw the malochim arranged in formations in honor of Hashem and they desired to arrange themselves in formation as well. Hashem acceded to their desire and gave the instructions for their formations. Perhaps Hashem caused the numbers to be round in order to be conducive to the formations. 
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yesitsme on May 27, 2018, 07:25:35 AM
I hope you don't think I was serious about a miracle in my OP.

It is just odd how we look at these things. Remember the post about the plane crash and the one passenger that didn't fly because of Shabbos? Some in that DDMS post called it a miracle. You think those same individuals that called it a miracle would feel the same way if it was a Catholic that didn't fly over Easter?
Replace miracle with Hashgocha Protis
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 27, 2018, 09:04:48 AM







.... I finally found one sefer that speaks about it. If I remember correctly it was called באמונה שלמה. I unfortunately didn't go through it clearly because the sefer was in the bais medrash and I was embarrassed to be seen with it.



Can you please elaborate on the nature of this embarrassment? So strange

Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Definitions on May 27, 2018, 11:28:19 AM
I've had this question for a while.

That the numbers were rounded occurred to me and without seeing his argument, I can't see why that would be kefira.  The Torah rounds numbers elsewhere.  Moshe Rabbenu said שש מאות אלף רגלי, forty makos.  However, I disregarded this as answer because the counting of the Leviim also comes to a round number and is clearly not rounded as seen from the cheshbon of bechorim vs Leviim.

The medrish (precises source would be appreciated) says that at matan torah am yisrael saw the malochim arranged in formations in honor of Hashem and they desired to arrange themselves in formation as well. Hashem acceded to their desire and gave the instructions for their formations. Perhaps Hashem caused the numbers to be round in order to be conducive to the formations.
He also brings down the bechorim to show that it's specific like you said. Nu nu I thought about that and I still don't think it takes away from the answer (that's why I wrote mostly).

And for the formations (I'm not familiar with this) you'd have to say that for all of klal yisroel not the people who were 20+.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Definitions on May 27, 2018, 11:48:39 AM

Can you please elaborate on the nature of this embarrassment? So strange
Yes. It's something like learning nightseder with an artscroll :)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: thaber on May 27, 2018, 12:25:46 PM
That's sad.not you, but the prevailing culture that would equate the two
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Ergel on May 27, 2018, 12:42:30 PM
Hilarious that the answer that appears in the Rosh in pesachim is called "absolute kefirah"
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Boruch999 on May 27, 2018, 01:35:04 PM
Hilarious that the answer that appears in the Rosh in pesachim is called "absolute kefirah"
מראה מקןם?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: aygart on May 27, 2018, 02:57:54 PM
I will try and remember to ask my father who has a bunch of maare mikomos for this. He can also tell you the exact probability of it which he calculated. Being exact numbers would unquestionably be a tremendous nes.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yzj on May 27, 2018, 04:05:51 PM
See Emes Liyaakov (R’ Yaakov Kaminetsky) in parshas Pinchas (26-8) who addresses this anomaly along the lines of the meshech chochmah in parshas Bamidbar....
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Ergel on May 29, 2018, 07:16:02 PM
Sorry for the delay. Here is the מראה מקןם. It's a רא"ש in ערבי פסחים סימן מHe didn't discuss the question explicitly, and he may may not apply his answer to this question. Though, based on this, I'd have a hard time calling this כפירה.
If you believe Hashem couldn't make a miracle that all the shevatim ended in a round number, that's obviously kefirah. But the question is, to what end would Hashem have made such a miracle
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 29, 2018, 08:05:00 PM
Sorry for the delay. Here is the מראה מקןם. It's a רא"ש in ערבי פסחים סימן מHe didn't discuss the question explicitly, and he may may not apply his answer to this question. Though, based on this, I'd have a hard time calling this כפירה.
If you believe Hashem couldn't make a miracle that all the shevatim ended in a round number, that's obviously kefirah. But the question is, to what end would Hashem have made such a miracle
check out the machlokes ramban and ibn Ezra by the 70 yordim... Its been a while but IIRC it's a good mareh mokom also.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: DTM on May 29, 2018, 08:55:18 PM
Am I Halachically prohibited from attending my second cousin’s Shabbos Bat Mitzva in a Conservative Shul where she will be be called up for an Aliya and lain the Parsha? I would actually daven else where but only attend to avoid insulting or hurting their feelings. Please cite sources if possible.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on May 29, 2018, 09:14:23 PM
Am I Halachically prohibited from attending my second cousin’s Shabbos Bat Mitzva in a Conservative Shul where she will be be called up for an Aliya and lain the Parsha? I would actually daven else where but only attend to avoid insulting or hurting their feelings. Please cite sources if possible.
Ask your rov. Iirc Reb Moshe catagorically doesn't permit it
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 02, 2018, 11:49:44 PM
Hilarious that the answer that appears in the Rosh in pesachim is called "absolute kefirah"
I checked out r blochs sefer today on this. He brings down the Rosh and meshech chochma in his foot notes.. an ignoramus he isn't..
Happens to be that the numbers are not the main focus of his chapter in which he brings them in.. wtvr
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 02, 2018, 11:51:12 PM
Did the eruv Rav that joined klal yisroel by yetzias mitzrayim have a Mila first? Or not because they were straight in the midbar
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yitzgar on June 02, 2018, 11:58:03 PM
Cmiiw, but I think geirus requires milah and if it's a sakana, it's just not possible to be megayer
Did the eruv Rav that joined klal yisroel by yetzias mitzrayim have a Mila first? Or not because they were straight in the midbar
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Ergel on June 03, 2018, 07:23:33 AM
I checked out r blochs sefer today on this. He brings down the Rosh and meshech chochma in his foot notes.. an ignoramus he isn't..
Happens to be that the numbers are not the main focus of his chapter in which he brings them in.. wtvr

Was unaware the Sefer was written by Rav Bloch. I still find it strange that you would say that rounding is kefirah in light of these mareh mekomos. Does he reconcile that?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2018, 07:42:53 AM
Was unaware the Sefer was written by Rav Bloch. I still find it strange that you would say that rounding is kefirah in light of these mareh mekomos. Does he reconcile that?
Its R Yossef Bloch from monsey.

He's does reconcile something.. not sure what he's saying and I'm not really going to expand much time trying to figure it out.

I'm totally on the same page as him as far as the general concept and message of this specific chapter. He got a little side lined with the counts imho...
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2018, 10:59:04 AM
Cmiiw, but I think geirus requires milah and if it's a sakana, it's just not possible to be megayer
Sources?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2018, 11:42:15 AM
check out the machlokes ramban and ibn Ezra by the 70 yordim... Its been a while but IIRC it's a good mareh mokom also.
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180603/be35e4f54c7ffe0495befa2dcd064750.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180603/6ebe193e98af93393644b91ffdc300fc.jpg)
See Ramban there also...
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Ergel on June 03, 2018, 12:18:57 PM
Cmiiw, but I think geirus requires milah and if it's a sakana, it's just not possible to be megayer
That's my understanding as well, I will try to ask around for a makor.
Do we know that the erav Rav were actually megayer and Jewish?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Ergel on June 03, 2018, 12:20:19 PM
(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180603/be35e4f54c7ffe0495befa2dcd064750.jpg)(https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180603/6ebe193e98af93393644b91ffdc300fc.jpg)
See Ramban there also...
That's a really good raayah. A peleh on the Rosh
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yitzgar on June 03, 2018, 04:57:27 PM
Don't remember, just  have a vague recollection of hearing that
Sources?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Bukboy on June 03, 2018, 07:40:21 PM
Sources?
Sources for what? That Milah is מעכב geirus, or source specifically when there's a sakana.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Bukboy on June 03, 2018, 07:47:15 PM
That's my understanding as well, I will try to ask around for a makor.
Do we know that the erav Rav were actually megayer and Jewish?
There's lots of torah-reid in the rishoinam on this. See Rambam איסורי בּיאה פּרק יג הל יח
ומפני זה אמרו חכמים קשים להם גרים לישראל כנגע צרעת שרובן חוזרין בשביל דבר ומטעין את ישראל. וקשה הדבר לפרוש מהם אחר שנתגיירו. צא ולמד מה אירע במדבר במעשה העגל ובקברות התאוה וכן רוב הנסיונות האספסוף היו בהן תחלה
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: churnbabychurn on June 03, 2018, 09:29:12 PM
There's lots of torah-reid in the rishoinam on this. See Rambam איסורי בּיאה פּרק יג הל יח
ומפני זה אמרו חכמים קשים להם גרים לישראל כנגע צרעת שרובן חוזרין בשביל דבר ומטעין את ישראל. וקשה הדבר לפרוש מהם אחר שנתגיירו. צא ולמד מה אירע במדבר במעשה העגל ובקברות התאוה וכן רוב הנסיונות האספסוף היו בהן תחלה
They were geirim.. Rashi says so a few times in Chumash also.
In the midbar they had Mila, just not priah.
There were also additional eiruv Rav later on after milchemes amalek.

Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: yesitsme on June 03, 2018, 11:02:02 PM
Banks that are on the stock market don't need a Heter Iska ?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Definitions on March 15, 2019, 03:54:12 AM
In regards to hishtadlus, sometimes I've heard people say they "aren't holding on that level of emuna/bitachon", what does that mean? Do they believe or not? Even if you say that emuna/bitachon is a range, still at the end of the day I only see three options. Either you believe, you don't believe, or you're not sure (which can have different levels of not being sure). If that's the case why isn't it considered that you don't have emuna shleima in one of the 13 ikrim thereby being considered a kofer?


Also a random thing I was thinking about recently. I've heard people saying (now that there are basically no more misnagdim) that there are 2 equally valid mehalchim in avodas hashem. One is more focused on limud hatorah... And the other is more focused on davening, dveikus... Chassidim picked the latter and litvish people picked the former.

I was thinking, isn't it a little interesting to say that hashem would give two equally valid approaches in avodas hashem. If they are both equally valid and it's up to us to choose which one to do then it just comes down to what we like to do better. Which in my eyes seems like a pegima.

Wouldn't it be smarter if there was only one derech?

 (Yes there are some assumptions involved in this post but they're not too far fetched)
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 15, 2019, 07:15:52 AM
they're not too far fetched
-1
Here is my understanding.

I absolutely trust my father with my life. If he was holding me over a 10,000 foot cliff, no doubt in my mind I'll be afraid. That is not perfect Bitachon, I am not trusting entirely in him. Is that a definitive yes, or no? Absolutely not.

Recognizing that it's my father holding me in that position is emunah. To not fully understand that that's the case, is a lack in Emunah, once again there is undoubtedly a range, to what extent do you understand, or to what extent to you recognize that it's him. And the same for when you are pulled to safety, how much do you understand/recognize that it was him who saved you.

The 2 mehalchim question had to many assumptions for me to tackle.

Say you have 2 roads from point A to point B. One is flat and windy, one is bumpy and straight. Or one is perfect at the beginning, but bumpy at the end, while the other is windy at the start but straightens out in the middle. Both roads take you from where you are to where you need to be. Both roads are hard, and you can't take the easy part without the hard part. But after all is said and done you get from point A to point B. And that's where based on your assumptions God says choose your way, you have bechira, but all I need is you to be at point B.

But I disagree with the whole second part, so who cares what I think.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: mmgfarb on March 15, 2019, 08:57:21 AM
In regards to hishtadlus, sometimes I've heard people say they "aren't holding on that level of emuna/bitachon", what does that mean? Do they believe or not? Even if you say that emuna/bitachon is a range, still at the end of the day I only see three options. Either you believe, you don't believe, or you're not sure (which can have different levels of not being sure). If that's the case why isn't it considered that you don't have emuna shleima in one of the 13 ikrim thereby being considered a kofer?


Also a random thing I was thinking about recently. I've heard people saying (now that there are basically no more misnagdim) that there are 2 equally valid mehalchim in avodas hashem. One is more focused on limud hatorah... And the other is more focused on davening, dveikus... Chassidim picked the latter and litvish people picked the former.

I was thinking, isn't it a little interesting to say that hashem would give two equally valid approaches in avodas hashem. If they are both equally valid and it's up to us to choose which one to do then it just comes down to what we like to do better. Which in my eyes seems like a pegima.

Wouldn't it be smarter if there was only one derech?

 (Yes there are some assumptions involved in this post but they're not too far fetched)
I think you need to find yourself a Rebbi.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Yard sale on March 15, 2019, 09:44:44 AM
In regards to hishtadlus, sometimes I've heard people say they "aren't holding on that level of emuna/bitachon", what does that mean? Do they believe or not? Even if you say that emuna/bitachon is a range, still at the end of the day I only see three options. Either you believe, you don't believe, or you're not sure (which can have different levels of not being sure). If that's the case why isn't it considered that you don't have emuna shleima in one of the 13 ikrim thereby being considered a kofer?


Also a random thing I was thinking about recently. I've heard people saying (now that there are basically no more misnagdim) that there are 2 equally valid mehalchim in avodas hashem. One is more focused on limud hatorah... And the other is more focused on davening, dveikus... Chassidim picked the latter and litvish people picked the former.

I was thinking, isn't it a little interesting to say that hashem would give two equally valid approaches in avodas hashem. If they are both equally valid and it's up to us to choose which one to do then it just comes down to what we like to do better. Which in my eyes seems like a pegima.

Wouldn't it be smarter if there was only one derech?

 (Yes there are some assumptions involved in this post but they're not too far fetched)

Fairly easy to answer your questions. The first is discussed in  the Gemara and numerous kadmonim.  I don’t have time to write now, perhaps others will . Think about this in regards to your second question. Why did Hashem make male and female? Why not just the one being who is more perfect at serving Him?
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: Yard sale on March 18, 2019, 03:01:15 AM
A suggested reading that deals with your first question is Worldmask by Rabbi Akiva Tatz, I think it’s primarily in chapter 3.

Regarding your second question see the attached from the chofetz chaim for a start.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: cmey on March 18, 2019, 03:17:46 AM
I once heard that the greater a person is the less he perceives things as contradictory. A child sees everything from a very rigid and narrow point of view. If you can’t drive on shabbos, why is the Hatzolah guy doing it? My parent doesn’t love me; if he did how could he punish me? As he matures he realizes that there are nuances and things that seemed contradictory are actually in perfect harmony.

People see different paths as contradictory; either satmar is right or Rav kook was right. Either the sefardi mesorah or ashkenaz.  Either the Gra or the Besht. A gadol understands that all have a place, and perhaps a necessary place in the great entity known as Klal Yisroel. There were 12 shevatim. We needed a yissaschar but also a zevulan. A Yehuda but also a Dan. Only with all of them united did Hashem rest his shechina on klal yisrael. Hashem didn’t choose to create millions of identical individuals. What would be the point of creating more than one? Each person has a unique ability to bring out kevod shomayim in a way that no one else can replicate. Only when each person uses his individuality to serve Hashem is the goal of Hashem’s creation realized. One person may have an unbelievable head for learning. Another in psak  halacha. A third in connecting unaffiliated Jews to their heritage. Yet another may be unable to read a blatt Gemara with tosfos yet he is a genius in chessed. Each is using his talents to serve Hashem. It is not always easy to know what one’s own strengths and talents truly are. One may need a kesher with someone who can objectively guide him to use his abilities in the best way. But to say that only one path in Judaism is the correct one is to miss the fundamental underpinnings of what klal yisrael is all about.
Title: Re: Torah & Hashkafa Questions (PC Free For All)
Post by: jye on March 29, 2019, 11:04:09 AM
When we learn kodshim and taharos we are obviously learning torah as well as preparing for moshiach when these laws will once again be practical. What about the large sections of taharos and kodshim that were gezeiros of chazal that seem to have been specifically tailored to their times, such as “bigdei am haaretz medras liprushim” and numerous other examples. Presumably when moshiach comes they will no longer be enacted since there will no longer be amei haaretz (ומלאה בארץ דעה)?

Are we learning major parts of kodshim and taharos for the torah lishmah or perhaps the concepts we can glean from them, since not only are they not relevant now, but presumably will not apply in the future either?