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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: DTM on March 03, 2018, 08:51:50 PM

Title: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 03, 2018, 08:51:50 PM
What exactly is the difference between each of them as it relates specifically to the post-Shechita examination of the animalís lungs? I think that Bais Yosef insists that the lungs be completely smooth with no possibility of a hole which would render the animal Trief; Glatt Kosher is ok with a scab on the lungs so long as it is removed and then no hole is found; and Kosher is also ok with a scab without  trying to remove it. Is that correct?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: gubevo18 on March 03, 2018, 09:36:07 PM
well its a big and much written about sugya. shulchan aruch yoreh deah siman 39 seif 10 IIRC and see Pischei tshuva there. to start. see aruch hshulchan there too.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2018, 09:51:44 PM
With all due respect I asked a Yes or No question.
With all due respect not everything can be simplified to a yes or no.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 03, 2018, 10:13:10 PM
So, in other words, you guys donít really know whether my simplified description of the difference between the 3 levels of shechita kashrus is correct or not. Or itís an inside elitist secret that the general public who have not studied all those authorities cited are not worthy of knowing.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2018, 10:20:32 PM
So, in other words, you guys donít really know whether my simplified description of the difference between the 3 levels of shechita kashrus is correct or not. Or itís an inside elitist secret that the general public who have not studied all those authorities cited are not worthy of knowing.
+1
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: Sport on March 03, 2018, 10:22:44 PM


So, in other words, you guys donít really know whether my simplified description of the difference between the 3 levels of shechita kashrus is correct or not. Or itís an inside elitist secret that the general public who have not studied all those authorities cited are not worthy of knowing.

I'm going with "inside elitist secret" on this one. Can we get a poll?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: davidrotts63 on March 03, 2018, 10:22:47 PM
So, in other words, you guys donít really know whether my simplified description of the difference between the 3 levels of shechita kashrus is correct or not. Or itís an inside elitist secret that the general public who have not studied all those authorities cited are not worthy of knowing.
Have you heard of the story of הלל and כל התורה על רגל אחת?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: mmgfarb on March 03, 2018, 10:23:31 PM
So, in other words, you guys donít really know whether my simplified description of the difference between the 3 levels of shechita kashrus is correct or not. Or itís an inside elitist secret that the general public who have not studied all those authorities cited are not worthy of knowing.
Why the animosity? If you really want to know the intricacies of the halacha and aren't just trolling, go ask someone qualified to answer in person. I think it's ridiculous when people ask loaded halachic questions on an anonymous online forum and then get upset about the lack of good answers. Get a life.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: yitzgar on March 03, 2018, 10:25:11 PM
Isn't there already a thread that this belongs in?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2018, 10:39:39 PM
What exactly is the difference between each of them as it relates specifically to the post-Shechita examination of the animalís lungs? I think that Bais Yosef insists that the lungs be completely smooth with no possibility of a hole which would render the animal Trief; Glatt Kosher is ok with a scab on the lungs so long as it is removed and then no hole is found; and Kosher is also ok with a scab without  trying to remove it. Is that correct?
1) Glatt no scabs at all
2) kosher, has some scabs,but these have been skillfully analyzed and tested to ascertain that they do not render the cow traif
3) Glatt Beis Yosef, means same as number 1, just restricted to less areas of the lungs that would be problematic according to ramo.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: TimT on March 03, 2018, 10:41:09 PM
Isn't there already a thread that this belongs in?
Naturally
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2018, 10:42:04 PM
Naturally
+1
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2018, 10:51:45 PM
Have you heard of the story of הלל and כל התורה על רגל אחת?
Was that for only a one word answer? Don't leave out the last part. Zil gmor.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2018, 10:52:54 PM
1) Glatt no scabs at all
2) kosher, has some scabs,but these have been skillfully analyzed and tested to ascertain that they do not render the cow traif
3) Glatt Beis Yosef, means same as number 1, just restricted to less areas of the lungs that would be problematic according to ramo.
-1 on 1 and 3
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: moko on March 03, 2018, 10:55:05 PM
You need to define the difference between a rir and a sircha then you need to settle which cases of a rir did the B"Y agree were glatt and which ones were only glatt lfi the Rema.....etc....
Everything stated above is a gross over simplification.
Kind of like asking if the docs on DDF can describe all the different approaches to curing lung cancer in a DDF post....
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2018, 10:58:50 PM
You need to define the difference between a rir and a sircha then you need to settle which cases of a rir did the B"Y agree were glatt and which ones were only glatt lfi the Rema.....etc....
Everything stated above is a gross over simplification.
Kind of like asking if the docs on DDF can describe all the different approaches to curing lung cancer in a DDF post....
Ohkay. Didn't sound like the guy wanted to become a bodek based on any answers here.

Just a basic idea.


So if someone asked how to deal with lung cancer for eg, I would respond that preferably cut it out, but if it's stage 3+ then do chemo.

Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2018, 11:05:00 PM
You need to define the difference between a rir and a sircha then you need to settle which cases of a rir did the B"Y agree were glatt and which ones were only glatt lfi the Rema.....etc....
Everything stated above is a gross over simplification.
Kind of like asking if the docs on DDF can describe all the different approaches to curing lung cancer in a DDF post....
+1000000000
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 03, 2018, 11:06:58 PM
Ohkay. Didn't sound like the guy wanted to become a bodek based on any answers here.

Just a basic idea.


So if someone asked how to deal with lung cancer for eg, I would respond that preferably cut it out, but if it's stage 3+ then do chemo.
Yes or no answer please.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 03, 2018, 11:13:09 PM
Yes or no answer please.
No
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 04, 2018, 07:07:03 AM
Ohkay. Didn't sound like the guy wanted to become a bodek based on any answers here.
Just a basic idea.
+613  😊
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 04, 2018, 07:40:33 AM
1) Glatt no scabs at all
2) kosher, has some scabs,but these have been skillfully analyzed and tested to ascertain that they do not render the cow traif
3) Glatt Beis Yosef, means same as number 1, just restricted to less areas of the lungs that would be problematic according to ramo.
Thanks for the only response on point so far. It differs from what I thought in the OP.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 04, 2018, 07:58:06 AM
I was discussing this topic on Shabbos with several people, including some in the Glatt Kosher meat business, and none seemed sure or in agreement as to the distinction between the three standards. Then, after Shabbos I posted the topic under the general category of Just Shmooze. I have since found the article below. When I return from my current MB vacation I will also ask my LOR.
https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/3473/making-the-cut-assuring-that-glatt-really-means-kosher/
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: moko on March 04, 2018, 08:08:29 AM
Thanks for the only response on point so far. It differs from what I thought in the OP.
except it's wrong. So long as it's on point....
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 04, 2018, 08:41:09 AM
So... nobody really knows for sure..., or itís a secret 😀
Iíll ask my LOR when I get back home and will bli neder try to post back here again.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: moko on March 04, 2018, 08:48:35 AM
So... nobody really knows for sure..., or itís a secret 😀
Iíll ask my LOR when I get back home and will bli neder try to post back here again.
Dayan Lichtenstein from London has a basic primer on this topic but even that primer says much of the details are beyond the scope....
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2018, 09:53:47 AM
Thanks for the only response on point so far. It differs from what I thought in the OP.
OP was closer to accuracy though albeit also wrong.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2018, 09:54:43 AM
So... nobody really knows for sure..., or itís a secret
Iíll ask my LOR when I get back home and will bli neder try to post back here again.
Or those who know do not feel that this is the right place etc
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 04, 2018, 10:01:05 AM
Or those who know do not feel that this is the right place etc
Wow
🙄
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: gubevo18 on March 04, 2018, 05:35:53 PM
Or those who know do not feel that this is the right place etc
+1
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 05, 2018, 12:27:08 PM
Glatt means smooth- I.E the lung was checked and it is smooth.

Not Glatt- means it wasnt checked, so it could be trifa.

Beit yosef is a company that sfaradim trust.

Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: moko on March 05, 2018, 12:49:35 PM
Glatt means smooth- I.E the lung was checked and it is smooth.

Not Glatt- means it wasnt checked, so it could be trifa.

Beit yosef is a company that sfaradim trust.
1. Basic translation
2. Wrong
3. Which Company is that?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: gubevo18 on March 05, 2018, 02:48:48 PM
Glatt means smooth- I.E the lung was checked and it is smooth.

Not Glatt- means it wasnt checked, so it could be trifa.

Beit yosef is a company that sfaradim trust.
seriously? Whereíd you get that from??
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 05, 2018, 04:11:12 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badatz_Beit_Yosef
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: yuneeq on March 05, 2018, 04:18:42 PM
Glatt means smooth- I.E the lung was checked and it is smooth.

Not Glatt- means it wasnt checked, so it could be trifa.

Beit yosef is a company that sfaradim trust.

Are you being sarcastic?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 05, 2018, 04:34:33 PM
Are you being sarcastic?
For sure
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 05, 2018, 04:35:31 PM
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Badatz_Beit_Yosef
True,but that is NOT what glatt Beis Yosef means in most contexts
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 05, 2018, 04:48:16 PM
For sure

-1

It is a hechsher that follows a sfardy standard.

Try and open a business named beit yosef and you will receive a letter from the owner of that name:)
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: moko on March 05, 2018, 04:56:17 PM
-1

It is a hechsher that follows a sfardy standard.

Try and open a business named beit yosef and you will receive a letter from the owner of that name:)
actually many religious sephardim don't use that hashgacha.
I went to a Yeshiva call Bais Yosef and I don't believe they ever received a letter from Badatz Bait Yosef....
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: yuneeq on March 05, 2018, 05:13:24 PM
-1

It is a hechsher that follows a sfardy standard.

Try and open a business named beit yosef and you will receive a letter from the owner of that name:)

Glatt is named after Glatt Mart.
And Kosher is a registered trademark of Kosher Delight.

Any other insights?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: churnbabychurn on March 05, 2018, 07:15:43 PM
actually many religious sephardim don't use that hashgacha.
I went to a Yeshiva call Bais Yosef and I don't believe they ever received a letter from Badatz Bait Yosef....
They actually filed a claim against Rabbi Caro's estate for infringement. Long story...
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 06, 2018, 10:17:10 AM

Glatt is named after Glatt Mart.
And Kosher is a registered trademark of Kosher Delight.

Any other insights?

Wow 5 likes for this. I better find new friends.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ilherman on March 06, 2018, 10:40:42 AM
Wow 5 likes for this. I better find new friends.
No need to find new friends. Just study the halacha. שחיטת בית יוסף is not a company name. Anyone who checks the lung and finds it completely clean without any serches calls his meat beis yosef. The Rema is מקיל that even you find serches it is still kosher if it comes off a certain way which according to him means that there was never a hole there.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ilherman on March 06, 2018, 10:45:16 AM
Happens to be, last week I bought a cow and went down with a very well respected שוחט to the slaughterhouse and I was there during the whole process. I was lucky BH that the lung was all clear so it's שחיטת בית יוסף and I have now for the next few months my own kosher מהודר meat!
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 06, 2018, 10:51:37 AM
No need to find new friends. Just study the halacha. שחיטת בית יוסף is not a company name. Anyone who checks the lung and finds it completely clean without any serches calls his meat beis yosef. The Rema is מקיל that even you find serches it is still kosher if it comes off a certain way which according to him means that there was never a hole there.

My comment was to point out how unfunny the other comment was in my opinion. Thus my dismay with fellow DDFers who gave it like. 

Regarding the discussion at hand, I do not disagree with you regarding the standard beit yosef upholds. However, based on your description any Hechsher( I.E company) can put a beis yosef stamp on it, if it meets those standards. 

This is not the case. Only one hechsher (i.E company) can use the beit yosef label.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: avromie7 on March 06, 2018, 10:54:20 AM
Regarding the discussion at hand, I do not disagree with you regarding the standard beit yosef upholds. However, based on your description any Hechsher( I.E company) can put a beis yosef stamp on it, if it meets those standards. 

This is not the case. Only one hechsher (i.E company) can use the beit yosef label.
This is simply not true, I've seen it many times on meat from many different hechsherim.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 06, 2018, 10:58:10 AM
This is simply not true, I've seen it many times on meat from many different hechsherim.
your comment is not true:) you have any evidence you wish to present or should we just take the word of a random commenter online...
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ilherman on March 06, 2018, 11:04:42 AM

This is not the case. Only one hechsher (i.E company) can use the beit yosef label.
I am sorry but you have no idea what you are talking about. No company can hijack the a certain Halacha standard that only they are allowed to be called this name....
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ilherman on March 06, 2018, 11:10:23 AM
Here you go..

Guess they are in trouble now...
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 06, 2018, 11:13:52 AM
Here you go..

Guess they are in trouble now...

illegible
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 06, 2018, 11:28:27 AM
Could it be that Monsey Glatt is the company name of the store, and Bais Yosef Beef Flanken is a description of the the product, like Cholov Yisroel Ice Cream?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 06, 2018, 11:34:23 AM
... Anyone who checks the lung and finds it completely clean without any serches calls his meat beis yosef. The Rema is מקיל that even you find serches it is still kosher if it comes off a certain way which according to him means that there was never a hole there.
Thanks for that clarification. And what then is your understanding of the difference between kosher and glatt kosher?
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ilherman on March 06, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
Could it be that Monsey Glatt is the company name of the store, and Bais Yosef Beef Flanken is a description of the the product, like Cholov Yisroel Ice Cream?
Exactly. He claims that some guy can claim he owns cholov Yisrael and no one else can call his products cholov Yisrael..
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ilherman on March 06, 2018, 11:47:32 AM
Thanks for that clarification. And what then is your understanding of the difference between kosher and glatt kosher?
I believe non glatt means they don't check the lung if it's glatt or not... Not sure though
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: DTM on March 06, 2018, 12:06:29 PM
I believe non glatt means they don't check the lung if it's glatt or not... Not sure though
According to Rabbi Moshe Heinemann of Star-K, referenced earlier in this thread:

"Glatt kosher means that any adhesions found were exceptionally thin (like a sewing thread) and the adhesion peeled off easily, leaving no hole in the lung wall, and the adhesionless lung passed the air/water test.  Kosher means that the lung had adhesions which were thicker or wider in nature; however, upon removal they did not leave any hole in the lung wall and the lung passed the air/water test. Generally speaking, it was the custom of Ashkenazic Jews of European descent to eat both Beis Yosef Glatt and non-Glatt meats, and to accept both as kosher.  [Please note that Beis Yosef Glatt meat that is certified only by Sephardic hechsherim may rely on leniencies that are not acceptable to Ashkenazim.]"

https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/3473/making-the-cut-assuring-that-glatt-really-means-kosher/
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: rs242 on March 06, 2018, 12:34:18 PM


This is not the case. Only one hechsher (i.E company) can use the beit yosef label.
This is pure and utter stupidity.
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: aygart on March 06, 2018, 12:42:32 PM
If he is referring to the logo then it makes sense but that is not what anyone here is talking about.

(http://www.yasmin4u.co.il/webfiles/fck/images/bdz.jpg)
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: zh cohen on March 06, 2018, 10:15:34 PM
Thanks for that clarification. And what then is your understanding of the difference between kosher and glatt kosher?

Disclaimer: I am not a shochet or Bodek, this is my layman's understanding based on discussions with a shochet

A lung that has no sirchas is "glatt  Beis Yosef." (I've been told that this is 1 in 100 in American animals and even then it's because the Bodek pnim wasn't careful enough when checking)

 If it has sirchos that are small enough that they can be easily removed without making a hole  in the lung it is Glatt. (The question is what is considered "easily removed." There is no black and white answer, and it can change based on circumstances)
If the sircha can be removed without leaving a hole in the lung it is Kosher. (All of the stories you hear of bringing the lung to the Rov are in this category.)

 In America where, for many years, the animals belonged to goyim, and the butcher only bought it if it was kosher, it became possible to be makpid on only eating Glatt
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: moko on March 06, 2018, 11:05:37 PM
Disclaimer: I am not a shochet or Bodek, this is my layman's understanding based on discussions with a shochet

A lung that has no sirchas is "glatt  Beis Yosef." (I've been told that this is 1 in 100 in American animals and even then it's because the Bodek pnim wasn't careful enough when checking)

 If it has sirchos that are small enough that they can be easily removed without making a hole  in the lung it is Glatt. (The question is what is considered "easily removed." There is no black and white answer, and it can change based on circumstances)
If the sircha can be removed without leaving a hole in the lung it is Kosher. (All of the stories you hear of bringing the lung to the Rov are in this category.)

 In America where, for many years, the animals belonged to goyim, and the butcher only bought it if it was kosher, it became possible to be makpid on only eating Glatt
the sircha you refer to can also be known as a rir . There are specific instances that the B"Y agrees to , if the rir is removed it is Kosher
Title: Re: Whatís the difference between Kosher, Glatt Kosher, Bais Yosef?
Post by: ADG on March 08, 2018, 09:32:15 AM
I want to appoligize to anyone I might have offended.

I am modeh v'ozev yerucham.