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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: eyj on March 04, 2018, 11:06:47 AM

Title: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: eyj on March 04, 2018, 11:06:47 AM
https://www.livescience.com/61914-stephen-hawking-neil-degrasse-tyson-beginning-of-time.html

https://news.google.com/news/amp?caurl=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.cnet.com%2Fnews%2Fstephen-hawking-tells-degrasse-tyson-what-preceded-big-bang%2F#pt0-836157

"Ordinary real time is replaced by imaginary time," he said. Honestly, that happens to me all the time. I imagine time has gone by at a certain pace, only to discover I've been imagining things.

For Hawking, however, imaginary time "behaves like a fourth direction of space." He and Euclid believe imaginary time is a "four-dimensional curved surface like the surface of the Earth, but with two more dimensions."

Six-dimensional, then?Ē


So basically, Stephen Hawking, the top guy in the field is saying we donít have a clue about what went on before the Big Bang, because it isnít measurable, observable, or quantifiable, so we may as well pretend that nothing existed before, or invent some imaginary different time that has never been observed, and will admittedly never be empirically verifiable, but.... have emunah in me folks, thatís the way it was.

How can this kind of absurdity be peddled around to supposedly intelligent people?
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 11:18:18 AM
Sunday is the new Friday!
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: hvaces42 on March 04, 2018, 11:55:45 AM
יהי אור ...BOOM!!! Big bang and there is light. What requires emunah? Its a פסוק.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: a good yeshiva bachur on March 04, 2018, 01:34:49 PM
🍿
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 01:45:22 PM
How can this kind of absurdity be peddled around to supposedly intelligent people?
They say the same thing about the supreme being theory.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: Lou Bob on March 04, 2018, 02:11:18 PM
Sunday is the new Friday!
#sundayfunday
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2018, 02:32:56 PM
They say the same thing about the supreme being theory.
Wasn't the whole point of these theories to avoid that?
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: eyj on March 04, 2018, 04:25:31 PM
Wasn't the whole point of these theories to avoid that?
THAT is the absurdity. In order to avoid a Supreme Being you are forced to go out on a limb and buy into his rather absurd theory that can never be empiricaly established, and that just gets you to the Big Bang. Then you have to take another giant leap of faith and defy infinitesimal odds to get to the first cell evolving. That is quite a leap of faith...
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: cmey on March 04, 2018, 04:44:15 PM
His theory of infinite time is plagiarized from well over 1000 years ago. Rabbeinu Saadya Gaon already discusses those who tried to advance a theory of infinite time to explain the universe in his Emunos Vídeos (circa 900 CE):

קבעתי את ההוה כנקודה. ואמרתי, כיון שהאדם, אם חשב בלבו לעלות בזמן מנקודה זו למעלה לא יוכל, מפני שאין לזמן תכלית, וכל אשר אין לו תכלית לא תוכל המחשבה לצעוד בו למעלה ולעברו, והרי סיבה זו עצמה מונעת שתלך ההוויה בו למטה ותעברם עד שתגיע אלינו. ואם לא תגיע ההוויה אלינו, הרי אנו בלתי מצויים. והרי דבר זה מחייב כי אנו קהל ההווים בלתי הווים, והמצויים בלתי מצויים. והואיל ומצאתי עצמי מצוי,  ידעתי כי ההוויות עברה את הזמן עד שהגיעה אלי. ואלמלא שיש לזמן תכלית  לא הייתה ההוויה עוברתו. והנני בדעה שגם הזמן העתיד כמו שדעתי בזמן העבר בלי פקפוק, ומצאתי הכתוב אומר בכגון זה על הזמן הרחוק: כל אדם חזו בו אנוש יביט מרחוק  , ואמר החסיד: אשא דעי למרחוק ולפעלי יעזן צדק  . והגיעוני  כי אחד הכופרים אשר נפגש עם זולתי מן המייחדים פקפק בראיה זו באומרו: יתכן שיעבור האדם בהילוכו דבר שאין תכלית לחלקיו, לפי שכל מיל או אמה שהלך האדם והעלינו אותו בלבנו מצאנוהו מתחלק לחלקים שאין להם סוף. ושאחד המעיינים הוכרח לומר שיש חלק שאינו מתחלק, ויש מהם שהודה בדילוג  , ומהם מי שהודה בהנחת חלקים רבים על חלקים רבים. וכאשר ביררתי טענת פקפוק זו מצאתיה הטעיה, מפני שהתחלקות הדבר ללא סוף אינו יוצא לנו אלא בדמיון, ולא יתכן שיהיה בפועל, מפני שהוא דק מכדי שיונח עליו הפועל או החלוקה. וכיון שהזמן העבר לא עברה בו ההוויה כי אם בדמיון לא בפועל, הרי הוא באמת דומה לראייה זו, ואם היה שההוויה עברה את הזמן בפועל עד שהגיעה אלינו, הרי דבר זה לא יהא שום טענת פקפוק על ראייתנו, לפי שאינו אלא בדמיון
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 05:58:00 PM
That is quite a leap of faith...
...and those that believe in their religion is not a leap of faith?
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: aygart on March 04, 2018, 05:59:48 PM


...and those that believe in their religion is not a leap of faith?



Wasn't the whole point of these theories to avoid that?

Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: Sport on March 04, 2018, 06:26:49 PM
THAT is the absurdity. In order to avoid a Supreme Being you are forced to go out on a limb and buy into his rather absurd theory that can never be empiricaly established, and that just gets you to the Big Bang. Then you have to take another giant leap of faith and defy infinitesimal odds to get to the first cell evolving. That is quite a leap of faith...
This is exactly what rav avigdor miller points out. Its just another form of religion.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: eyj on March 04, 2018, 07:03:16 PM
Its just another form of religion.
I donít remember hearing that line. Thatís a great way of putting it...
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 07:42:56 PM
This is exactly what rav avigdor miller points out. Its just another form of religion.
Except it is looked at as science.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: Sport on March 04, 2018, 07:45:46 PM
Except it is looked at as science.
That WAS his point.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 07:48:02 PM
That WAS his point.
I am confused. His point was science is another form of religion?
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: Sport on March 04, 2018, 07:53:45 PM
I am confused. His point was science is another form of religion?
His point was that they hide behind behind their claim to be the alternative to religion  and are based off of logical well researched facts (science)  but if you dig a little deeper it really requires a huge leap of faith in the different  theories and is no more grounded than their views on religion.
But it removes shibud making it alot more appealing.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 07:59:12 PM
His point was that they hide behind behind their claim to be the alternative to religion  and are based off of logical well researched facts (science)  but if you dig a little deeper it really requires a huge leap of faith in the different  theories and is no more grounded than their views on religion.
But it removes shibud making it alot more appealing.
Does Judaism say how old the earth is?
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: Sport on March 04, 2018, 08:09:48 PM
Does Judaism say how old the earth is?
Yes.

But if  you are looking to use my post as a springboard for a theologicall debate, you're barking up the wrong tree. I'm just quoting and explaining rav avigdor miller obm ztl.
I'm not one for debating these topics on forums, ill leave that to the likes of @aygart
(Once he concludes explaining hilchos triefos and how to make an easy mill in the stock market only) .
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 08:13:37 PM
Yes.
Has it changed over time?
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: Sport on March 04, 2018, 08:14:53 PM
Has it changed over time?
Not that I know of.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: whYME on March 04, 2018, 09:19:31 PM
Has it changed over time?
Well it's changed by over 30 years just during the time that I remember.
I remember when they said it was 5,745 years old. Now they're saying 5,778.
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on March 04, 2018, 09:36:02 PM
Well it's changed by over 30 years just during the time that I remember.
I remember when they said it was 5,745 years old. Now they're saying 5,778.
LOL
Title: Re: So Big Bang theory needs.....Emunah
Post by: yuneeq on March 14, 2018, 11:43:50 AM
Does Judaism say how old the earth is?

IIRC, Rabbi Akiva Tatz says that while it's not one of the 13 essential beliefs of Judaism (including the debate of how long creation itself took), he says 5778 can reconcile with science.

Edit: https://torahdownloads.com/shiur-1017709.html