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DansDeals Forum => Up In The Air => Topic started by: mendyt on April 17, 2018, 08:37:45 PM

Title: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 17, 2018, 08:37:45 PM
Just noticed this note in a PNR of my pax who flew 2 days ago on AF.
People don't realize what they do, and then claim that FA's are antisemite.

They usually document these things as a secured note which agents cant read, who knows how often this happens.

 18 OSI YY PAP A FAIT UN SCANDALE DANS L AVION                                 
 19 OSI YY CAR ASSIS A COTE D UN FEMME                                         
 20 OSI YY AVION EN RETARD PAR SA FAUTE

G Translate:
PAX MADE A SCANDAL IN THE PLANE
BECAUSE SITTING SIDE OF A WOMAN
PLANE DELAYED BY HIS FAULT


Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mileagejunkie on April 17, 2018, 08:50:29 PM
Just noticed this note in a PNR of my pax who flew 2 days ago on AF.
People don't realize what they do, and then claim that FA's are antisemite.

They usually document these things as a secured note which agents cant read, who knows how often this happens.

 18 OSI YY PAP A FAIT UN SCANDALE DANS L AVION                                 
 19 OSI YY CAR ASSIS A COTE D UN FEMME                                         
 20 OSI YY AVION EN RETARD PAR SA FAUTE

G Translate:
PAX MADE A SCANDAL IN THE PLANE
CAR SITTING SIDE OF A WOMAN
PLANE DELAYED BY HIS FAULT
Car=because
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ah giten on April 17, 2018, 08:51:27 PM
Just noticed this note in a PNR of my pax who flew 2 days ago on AF.
People don't realize what they do, and then claim that FA's are antisemite.

They usually document these things as a secured note which agents cant read, who knows how often this happens.

 18 OSI YY PAP A FAIT UN SCANDALE DANS L AVION                                 
 19 OSI YY CAR ASSIS A COTE D UN FEMME                                         
 20 OSI YY AVION EN RETARD PAR SA FAUTE

G Translate:
PAX MADE A SCANDAL IN THE PLANE
CAR SITTING SIDE OF A WOMAN
PLANE DELAYED BY HIS FAULT
Kiddish hashem
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: davidrotts63 on April 17, 2018, 08:52:02 PM
Kiddish hashem
+1
If done right only.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 17, 2018, 08:53:24 PM
+1
If done right only.

Was obviously not done the right way
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ar on April 17, 2018, 08:56:37 PM
If plane was delayed because of this then it's def a Chillul Hashem.

I always sit down right away and just ask flight attendant politely if possible to change. No big fuss, Chillul Hashem/holding up plane is much worse than sitting nexto woman.

Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: TimT on April 17, 2018, 09:05:12 PM
There shouldn’t be any delay. “Sit down or GET OFF!!!”
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: yelped on April 17, 2018, 09:38:44 PM
Was obviously not done the right way
Did you tell your client?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 17, 2018, 09:52:08 PM
Did you tell your client?

No.
Won't mention it unless he tells us something.

Pax always complain that FAs hate us, well they don't tell you the other half of the story. When I grew up I was told to ask politely and never make a fuss about it
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: yelped on April 17, 2018, 10:24:47 PM
Ridiculous.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Dr Moose on April 17, 2018, 10:49:01 PM
Kiddish hashem
Why do you think so?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: username on April 17, 2018, 10:55:30 PM
change title to CH on DDF.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Jellybelly on April 17, 2018, 11:07:35 PM
Just my 2 cents here without taking sides. it’s very interesting that everyone’s taking the side of the FA and no one knows what happened... maybe he asked nicely? Why take her word for it?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ad120 on April 17, 2018, 11:39:06 PM
Just my 2 cents here without taking sides. it’s very interesting that everyone’s taking the side of the FA and no one knows what happened... maybe he asked nicely? Why take her word for it?
You are right. Asking nicely resulted in a delay?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 17, 2018, 11:48:50 PM
Just my 2 cents here without taking sides. it’s very interesting that everyone’s taking the side of the FA and no one knows what happened... maybe he asked nicely? Why take her word for it?
You are right. Asking nicely resulted in a delay?
Everything is possible, but I believe we all witnessed already these scenarios...
Now I'm tempted to ask the passenger his side
Will report back iyh
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mgarfin on April 18, 2018, 12:47:53 AM
We had this PC discussion on DDF a few times already.
Kiddsh hashem vs Chilul hashem, the true meaning.

There are quite a few poskin that hold it's asuer. So sitting down for some is not even an option.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ckmk47 on April 18, 2018, 01:07:00 AM
You are right. Asking nicely resulted in a delay?
To play devils advocate:
His seat change may have had nothing to do with any delay; perhaps they were delayed for other reasons. Or perhaps his polite request was treated with disrespect and caused a delay.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: yitzgar on April 18, 2018, 08:05:40 AM
To play devils advocate:
His seat change may have had nothing to do with any delay; perhaps they were delayed for other reasons. Or perhaps his polite request was treated with disrespect and caused a delay.
I honestly wouldn't be surprised either way. I wouldn't even call it devil's advocate. I'm sure there have been similar stories in the past where the passenger was at fault and times where the FA was at fault
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: 12HRS on April 18, 2018, 08:11:35 AM
except that in this case he knows the PAX complains that all FA's hate him (read: jews?)
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 18, 2018, 09:40:31 AM
except that in this case he knows the PAX complains that all FA's hate him (read: jews?)
Didn't mean this pax in particular.
It's just the common slang you hear from many heimishe  people.
Will hopefully find out the other side of the story by tomorrow
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Baruch on April 18, 2018, 09:47:39 AM
Don't worry, as the #metoo movement grows, soon it will be illegal for a man to sit next to a woman. (I'm only half joking)
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 18, 2018, 11:13:01 AM
If you won't sit next to a woman under any circumstances, you have to buy 2 seats or sit in a single seat configuration. In the case of AF, they have a whole policy about it! https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/assistance/particuliere_pfc.htm

Assuming PAX didn't attempt to do this, it's his fault.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: yelped on April 18, 2018, 11:24:36 AM
Interesting. They refund the second seat if there's an empty seat anywhere in Economy on the plane. And you don't pay taxes. I'm assuming that includes YQ?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ckmk47 on April 18, 2018, 12:47:03 PM
If you won't sit next to a woman under any circumstances, you have to buy 2 seats or sit in a single seat configuration. In the case of AF, they have a whole policy about it! https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/assistance/particuliere_pfc.htm (https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/assistance/particuliere_pfc.htm)

Assuming PAX didn't attempt to do this, it's his fault.
Never heard of this deal for buying a 2nd seat to accommodate your girth.
Certainly wouldn't have thought of using it to avoid the wrong seatmate.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 18, 2018, 12:58:15 PM
Never heard of this deal for buying a 2nd seat to accommodate your girth.
Certainly wouldn't have thought of using it to avoid the wrong seatmate.
Every airline has different policies on this, but unless one works out an arrangement with the airline ahead of time, one cannot assume their religious needs would be honored.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: as2 on April 18, 2018, 02:39:00 PM
We had this PC discussion on DDF a few times already.
Kiddsh hashem vs Chilul hashem, the true meaning.

There are quite a few poskin that hold it's asuer. So sitting down for some is not even an option.
In that case, it's your responsibility to do what it takes to make those arrangements without inconveniencing the airline. They are not Jewish, and therefore you are forcing your religion on them. When this issue is dealt with in a polite and proper fashion, it's usually resolved without delay or conflict.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mordechain on April 18, 2018, 03:09:53 PM
Golus is becoming way too comfortable for us. We feel entitled. Some of us will blow it for the rest of us.

If someone's psak says not to sit next to a woman under any circumstances, he really needs to limit flying to almost never. It means being ready to ask politely once, and if not forthcoming to walk off the plane and forfeit the tickets.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: as2 on April 18, 2018, 03:19:35 PM
Golus is becoming way too comfortable for us. We feel entitled. Some of us will blow it for the rest of us.

If someone's psak says not to sit next to a woman under any circumstances, he really needs to limit flying to almost never. It means being ready to ask politely once, and if not forthcoming to walk off the plane and forfeit the tickets.
Exactly. It's not the best to be on a plane full of woman either, regardless of whether or not you're sitting next to them... I respect others for the level they're on, that I may not be on, but once you start pushing it on others, there is a problem.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: hvaces42 on April 18, 2018, 05:37:07 PM
Golus is becoming way too comfortable for us. We feel entitled. Some of us will blow it for the rest of us.

If someone's psak says not to sit next to a woman under any circumstances, he really needs to limit flying to almost never. It means being ready to ask politely once, and if not forthcoming to walk off the plane and forfeit the tickets.
Back in the day there were rabbanim who did exactly that. One in particular that i know of flew often enough that the airport staff already knew not to put him next to a woman.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: SGF on April 18, 2018, 07:51:28 PM
Back in the day there were rabbanim who did exactly that. One in particular that i know of flew often enough that the airport staff already knew not to put him next to a woman.
Can airport staff see what is gender of passengers?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 18, 2018, 07:54:43 PM
Can airport staff see what is gender of passengers?
Sure
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Yammer on April 19, 2018, 01:23:38 AM
If you won't sit next to a woman under any circumstances, you have to buy 2 seats or sit in a single seat configuration. In the case of AF, they have a whole policy about it! https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/assistance/particuliere_pfc.htm

Assuming PAX didn't attempt to do this, it's his fault.
Very Interesting.
Back in the day there were rabbanim who did exactly that. One in particular that i know of flew often enough that the airport staff already knew not to put him next to a woman.
Would never happen today...
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ExGingi on April 19, 2018, 01:44:07 AM
https://www.airfrance.us/US/en/common/guidevoyageur/assistance/particuliere_pfc.htm

Very interesting

Quote
* The 2nd seat is offered tax-free and with a 25% reduction on the passenger's initial seat fare

Need to keep in mind when they come up with insane fares that are mostly YQ. If only they would allow one to book a 3rd or even 4th seat under those terms, one could get real lie flat (if a little uneven) in economy.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Boruch999 on April 19, 2018, 07:11:02 AM
This seems like a great way to book a seat for an infant.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Yammer on April 19, 2018, 08:20:31 AM
This seems like a great way to book a seat for an infant.
Your still taking the chance of paying another ticket (-25%)
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: aygart on April 19, 2018, 08:43:14 AM
Your still taking the chance of paying another ticket (-25%)
-YQ etc.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shapsam on April 19, 2018, 08:56:23 AM
-YQ etc.
Where does it say -YQ, maybe only mines Gov. taxes?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Joe4007 on April 19, 2018, 09:29:44 AM
This seems like a great way to book a seat for an infant.
Between paying for the infants ticket (10%?) and the seat, there's not much savings left.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: yelped on April 19, 2018, 10:23:09 AM
Very interesting

Need to keep in mind when they come up with insane fares that are mostly YQ. If only they would allow one to book a 3rd or even 4th seat under those terms, one could get real lie flat (if a little uneven) in economy.
Question is if they would honor it if you book by phone...
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 19, 2018, 01:44:16 PM
Curious if they'll actually deny this if a person is thin enough.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: lubaby on April 19, 2018, 02:33:44 PM
Curious if they'll actually deny this if a person is thin enough.
What a person looks like does not matter, it's what they identify as..
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Mordyk on April 19, 2018, 04:10:18 PM
Anothet thread about someone not interested in moving seats? ::)
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Boruch999 on April 20, 2018, 05:28:46 AM
Between paying for the infants ticket (10%?) and the seat, there's not much savings left.
With a chance of a refund on the cost of the seat if there is an empty seat in Economy.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Abey on April 20, 2018, 12:51:54 PM
Seems to me that the free seat applies in all cabins “Air France will reimburse the entirety of your 2nd seat fare if there are unoccupied seats in your cabin”
The 25% discount on 2 seat in economy only...
Would be a great deal on flights with low loads
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Yammer on April 20, 2018, 12:59:15 PM
Seems to me that the free seat applies in all cabins “Air France will reimburse the entirety of your 2nd seat fare if there are unoccupied seats in your cabin”
The 25% discount on 2 seat in economy only...
Would be a great deal on flights with low loads
Didn't realize it earlier, but the point is that no one would pay for an extra J or F and be will to pay for the seat. 25% off an Economy Ticket may be worth it
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2018, 01:05:42 PM
So for example
(https://i.imgur.com/C7GyfzL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cie9dsE.png)

1st seat is $1,114.76
2nd seat is $270
Infant is about $112
Total maximum for adult+inf in guaranteed seat: $1,496.76 with possible refund of $270.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Abey on April 20, 2018, 01:07:24 PM
So for example
(https://i.imgur.com/C7GyfzL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cie9dsE.png)

1st seat is $1,114.76
2nd seat is $270
Infant is about $112
Total maximum for adult+inf in guaranteed seat: $1,496.76 with possible refund of $270.
Except that cs might not give you back $ if they see inf on ur ticket
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 20, 2018, 01:07:49 PM
So for example
(https://i.imgur.com/C7GyfzL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cie9dsE.png)

1st seat is $1,114.76
2nd seat is $270
Infant is about $112
Total maximum for adult+inf in guaranteed seat: $1,496.76 with possible refund of $270.
Why assume the carrier surcharge is excluded? It's not a tax.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 20, 2018, 01:07:54 PM
So for example
(https://i.imgur.com/C7GyfzL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cie9dsE.png)

1st seat is $1,114.76
2nd seat is $270
Infant is about $112
Total maximum for adult+inf in guaranteed seat: $1,496.76 with possible refund of $270.
Why assume the carrier surcharge is excluded? It's not a tax.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Yammer on April 20, 2018, 01:08:20 PM
So for example
(https://i.imgur.com/C7GyfzL.png)
(https://i.imgur.com/Cie9dsE.png)

1st seat is $1,114.76
2nd seat is $270
Infant is about $112
Total maximum for adult+inf in guaranteed seat: $1,496.76 with possible refund of $270.
Why is the 2nd seat $270?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ExGingi on April 20, 2018, 01:10:07 PM
Why assume the carrier surcharge is excluded? It's not a tax.

Good question. I'm not sure why I was under the impression that I saw base fare somewhere.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: yelped on April 20, 2018, 01:43:49 PM
Good question. I'm not sure why I was under the impression that I saw base fare somewhere.
Why assume the carrier surcharge is excluded? It's not a tax.
Interesting. They refund the second seat if there's an empty seat anywhere in Economy on the plane. And you don't pay taxes. I'm assuming that includes YQ?
That's what I asked...
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Mr. CC on April 22, 2018, 05:13:47 PM
Now I'm tempted to ask the passenger his side
Will report back iyh
any update?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Dan on April 22, 2018, 05:37:09 PM
Southwest allows you to book a free 2nd seat in the first place.
Good time to start a thread on this if someone wants.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Dan on April 22, 2018, 05:37:25 PM
Golus is becoming way too comfortable for us. We feel entitled. Some of us will blow it for the rest of us.

If someone's psak says not to sit next to a woman under any circumstances, he really needs to limit flying to almost never. It means being ready to ask politely once, and if not forthcoming to walk off the plane and forfeit the tickets.

Very well said.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ExGingi on April 22, 2018, 06:20:21 PM
Southwest allows you to book a free 2nd seat in the first place.
Good time to start a thread on this if someone wants.
Say what?

Why wouldn't everyone book a 2nd seat if it's free?
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: aygart on April 22, 2018, 06:23:58 PM
Southwest allows you to book a free 2nd seat in the first place.
Good time to start a thread on this if someone wants.
Say what?

Why wouldn't everyone book a 2nd seat if it's free?
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/08/19/southwest-passenger-of-size/

He also links to this summary
https://www.cheapair.com/blog/airline-policies-for-overweight-passengers-traveling-this-summer/?AID=11873782&PID=7718223&SID=DLA&uid=397
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Dan on April 22, 2018, 07:06:17 PM
https://onemileatatime.boardingarea.com/2017/08/19/southwest-passenger-of-size/

He also links to this summary
https://www.cheapair.com/blog/airline-policies-for-overweight-passengers-traveling-this-summer/?AID=11873782&PID=7718223&SID=DLA&uid=397
Nothing there about AF or other international carriers.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: mendyt on April 22, 2018, 07:36:21 PM
any update?
Yes.
This is the other side of the story and I'll let everyone decide who is right
It was on the CDG-TLV leg.
PAX asked a FA politely if he can help him switch, to which he replied with attitude that he can either sit in his seat or get off the aircraft, they started arguing and at some point the FA told him "you can fly elal if you wants this privilege" and just walked away, so he went and sat down in a empty fake J seat.  FA came to PAX again and said "you have to pay for this seat" so PAX offered to pay but FA refused. At the end they moved someone else from Y to J and he got that seat.
Sitting down in a cabin you didn't pay for, is totally unacceptable IMHO, and it's יצא שכרו בהפסידו
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: aygart on April 22, 2018, 07:47:48 PM
Nothing there about AF or other international carriers.
True
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: shaulyaakov on April 22, 2018, 07:52:46 PM
Nothing there about AF or other international carriers.
I linked to the AF policy upthread.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Mr. CC on April 22, 2018, 08:43:01 PM
Yes.
This is the other side of the story and I'll let everyone decide who is right
It was on the CDG-TLV leg.
PAX asked a FA politely if he can help him switch, to which he replied with attitude that he can either sit in his seat or get off the aircraft, they started arguing and at some point the FA told him "you can fly elal if you wants this privilege" and just walked away, so he went and sat down in a empty fake J seat.  FA came to PAX again and said "you have to pay for this seat" so PAX offered to pay but FA refused. At the end they moved someone else from Y to J and he got that seat.
Sitting down in a cabin you didn't pay for, is totally unacceptable IMHO, and it's יצא שכרו בהפסידו
I agree with you that he shouldn't have sat down in j, but then again אל תדון חברך עד שתגיע למקומו
 I can understand him for getting annoyed as I can believe the full story as I've seen this exact same scenarios in the past, when people ask politely and the flight attendant answers with an attitude.

I'm sure we'll have some (anti-semites)[clear minded people] bashing the passenger...
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: ad120 on April 23, 2018, 12:40:21 AM
Yes.
This is the other side of the story and I'll let everyone decide who is right
It was on the CDG-TLV leg.
PAX asked a FA politely if he can help him switch, to which he replied with attitude that he can either sit in his seat or get off the aircraft, they started arguing and at some point the FA told him "you can fly elal if you wants this privilege" and just walked away, so he went and sat down in a empty fake J seat.  FA came to PAX again and said "you have to pay for this seat" so PAX offered to pay but FA refused. At the end they moved someone else from Y to J and he got that seat.
Sitting down in a cabin you didn't pay for, is totally unacceptable IMHO, and it's יצא שכרו בהפסידו
and for everyone else, there is easyJet.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Proisrael on April 23, 2018, 01:05:31 AM
I agree with you that he shouldn't have sat down in j, but then again אל תדון חברך עד שתגיע למקומו
 I can understand him for getting annoyed as I can believe the full story as I've seen this exact same scenarios in the past, when people ask politely and the flight attendant answers with an attitude.

I'm sure we'll have some (anti-semites)[clear minded people] bashing the passenger...

A normal person wont just sit down in a J seat. There is obviously something wrong with the guy. He is an idiot and caused a Chilul Hashem. Like has been mentioned in the past, if you are not allowed to sit next to a lady then freaking walk! Do not cause a Chilul Hashem. Period.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: Dan on April 23, 2018, 01:07:47 AM
Yup, can't sit down next to a woman, but you can sit down in a stolen J seat. Cool story.
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: elit on April 23, 2018, 09:49:30 AM
Yup, can't sit down next to a woman, but you can sit down in a stolen J seat. Cool story.
exactly.
 and yet there are people who will some how justify it and attack ppl who question it as anti semites or don't care about halacha...
Title: Re: Chilul hashem on AF
Post by: YMW on June 01, 2018, 11:07:48 AM
Golus is becoming way too comfortable for us. We feel entitled. Some of us will blow it for the rest of us.

If someone's psak says not to sit next to a woman under any circumstances, he really needs to limit flying to almost never. It means being ready to ask politely once, and if not forthcoming to walk off the plane and forfeit the tickets.
+100