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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: Chief Rabbi of New York on June 19, 2018, 10:34:30 AM

Title: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on June 19, 2018, 10:34:30 AM
anyone know why there is so much hate towards another Jewish company ?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: stooges44 on June 19, 2018, 10:36:03 AM
I was wondering the same thing, what is @Dans ultimate goal with all this and the constant negative posts?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 10:36:35 AM
anyone know why there is so much hate towards another Jewish company ?
What makes El Al be a Jewish company?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 10:36:49 AM
Why does El Al hate frum Jews and hate making money?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 10:37:42 AM
Why does El Al hate their customers?
FTFY
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 10:38:06 AM
That too.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: stooges44 on June 19, 2018, 10:43:51 AM
Why does El Al hate frum Jews and hate making money?

Lots of companies hate their customers and sadly most Jewish owned companies specifically hate Jewish customers but you CHOOSE to fly on elal

There has to be something more going on here...
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: hvaces42 on June 19, 2018, 10:52:52 AM
anyone know why there is so much hate towards another Jewish company ?
Because they make it so easy to hate them.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: hvaces42 on June 19, 2018, 10:54:13 AM
Lots of companies hate their customers and sadly most Jewish owned companies specifically hate Jewish customers but you CHOOSE to fly on elal

There has to be something more going on here...
New level stooge

stooge
sto͞oj/Submit
noun
1.derogatory
a person who serves merely to support or assist others, particularly in doing unpleasant work.
"you fell for that helpless-female act and let her make you a stooge"
synonyms:   underling, minion, lackey, subordinate;
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: jj1000 on June 19, 2018, 11:00:17 AM
Does a parent hate a child that they critique and tells him how to get better?

If DD "hated" El Al they wouldn't have spent hours on the phone explaining exactly what to improve, change, and how to actually make money like some US airlines.

They have so much potential and seeing them shooting themselves in the foot makes it so much worse, being that they are Israel's airline.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: zagguru on June 19, 2018, 11:05:53 AM
anyone know why there is so much hate towards another Jewish company ?

Considering @Dan support for B&H, I dont think he hates a Jewish company
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on June 19, 2018, 11:13:21 AM
Does a parent hate a child that they critique and tells him how to get better?

If DD "hated" El Al they wouldn't have spent hours on the phone explaining exactly what to improve, change, and how to actually make money like some US airlines.

They have so much potential and seeing them shooting themselves in the foot makes it so much worse, being that they are Israel's airline.

a parent doesnt tell a child publicly how to improve. so this is very different
Why does El Al hate frum Jews and hate making money?

even if Elal is wrong, does giving them so much public negative press really solve the problem?
maybe you are causing other Jewish people out of jobs.
less people will fly them, then they need less workers...
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: hvaces42 on June 19, 2018, 11:13:33 AM
Does a parent hate a child that they critique and tells him how to get better?

If DD "hated" El Al they wouldn't have spent hours on the phone explaining exactly what to improve, change, and how to actually make money like some US airlines.

They have so much potential and seeing them shooting themselves in the foot makes it so much worse, being that they are Israel's airline.
Knowing how anything works in Israel, shooting themselves in the foot is par for the course.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 11:16:11 AM
Does a parent hate a child that they critique and tells him how to get better?

If DD "hated" El Al they wouldn't have spent hours on the phone explaining exactly what to improve, change, and how to actually make money like some US airlines.

They have so much potential and seeing them shooting themselves in the foot makes it so much worse, being that they are Israel's airline.
Well said. I'd love nothing more than to see them become a world class airline.

a parent doesnt tell a child publicly how to improve. so this is very different
I've spoken to them in private as well. Nobody seems to be able to fix what ails it and it's no surprise that they're losing money due to their problems.

As the CLE mayor said,
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 11:17:06 AM
a parent doesnt tell a child publicly how to improve. so this is very different
even if Elal is wrong, does giving them so much public negative press really solve the problem?
maybe you are causing other Jewish people out of jobs.
less people will fly them, then they need less workers...
Because saying something via email is really helpful to get them change policies ::)
What will get them to do something more than negative press? What other way is there to solve it?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mmgfarb on June 19, 2018, 11:33:01 AM
As the CLE mayor said,

#miketrivisonno
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on June 19, 2018, 11:51:08 AM

I've spoken to them in private as well. Nobody seems to be able to fix what ails it and it's no surprise that they're losing money due to their problems.


do you really think this public bashing will help them? is it good to publicly bash a company in order to make them better?
what about all the people who will lose jobs bc of this?
less people might fly bc of what you wrote, so they might need less workers
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mgarfin on June 19, 2018, 11:55:47 AM
anyone know why there is so much hate towards another Jewish company ?

Love can come from two places either, service or they love me.
in this case I get the feeling they hate me and service is really bad
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: TimT on June 19, 2018, 11:56:21 AM
do you really think this public bashing will help them? is it good to publicly bash a company in order to make them better?
what about all the people who will lose jobs bc of this?
less people might fly bc of what you wrote, so they might need less workers
Some airlines love negative publicity. Just ask United.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mgarfin on June 19, 2018, 11:57:20 AM
Why does El Al hate frum Jews and hate making money?

גאווה
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 11:57:41 AM
what about all the people who will lose jobs bc of this?
Whoever made the decision to fly to ATH instead of ZRH deserves to lose their job. They cost their airline many frum travelers who now know not to trust El Al Thursday flights because they won't be taken care of if they need it.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2018, 11:59:01 AM
do you really think this public bashing will help them? is it good to publicly bash a company in order to make them better?
what about all the people who will lose jobs bc of this?
less people might fly bc of what you wrote, so they might need less workers

Wow. I guess one must become a Chief Rabbi first in order to come up with this logic.

Why don't you start by putting forth what YOU think is wrong with ELAL, and how YOU think they should correct it.

@Dan has been quite clear on what he thinks needs to be done.

I think they have a corporate DNA problem, and really don't see how anything could be fixed without addressing that first. That would probably require a competent board with strong willpower.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ib3 on June 19, 2018, 12:09:40 PM


maybe you are causing other Jewish people out of jobs.
less people will fly them, then they need less workers...
Interesting. I just flew with my young son that went to Israel the 1st time. We were flying on Elal and he asked me  naively "where are all the Jewish workers"
Maybe if they would hire some frum workers they would've solved both problems. We would feel  more like we r  helping a fellow Jew, and they would better understand and cater to our needs.



Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on June 19, 2018, 12:20:59 PM
Whoever made the decision to fly to ATH instead of ZRH deserves to lose their job. They cost their airline many frum travelers who now know not to trust El Al Thursday flights because they won't be taken care of if they need it.

what about the other employees that will lose their job? like other flight attendants? employees at the airport ?
im talking about in general, not specifically the person who chose to land in ATH
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 12:23:38 PM
what about the other employees that will lose their job? like other flight attendants? employees at the airport ?
im talking about in general, not specifically the person who chose to land in ATH
Oy L'rasha, Oy L'shchaino?
Nobody's losing their job because of a blog post criticizing LYs decision to ruin people's Shabbos.
If they lose their job it will be because LY can't run a proper airline and refuses to listen to criticism.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: TimT on June 19, 2018, 12:24:10 PM
what about the other employees that will lose their job? like other flight attendants? employees at the airport ?
im talking about in general, not specifically the person who chose to land in ATH
If it hasn’t happened till now then it’s not gonna happen.
If you’re that worried about Jews losing their jobs try convincing them to cancel the planned flight school they’re opening in Florida.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: elit on June 19, 2018, 12:29:08 PM


We would feel  more like we r  helping a fellow Jew,


Sent from my SM-G930V using Tapatalk

trying very hard to.ignore this line.....
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: zagguru on June 19, 2018, 12:32:54 PM

trying very hard to.ignore this line.....

+1. I happen to be frum, but a Jew is a jew, no matter the level of observance.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Amusch on June 19, 2018, 12:36:09 PM
It's confusing to mix up this specific incident with the general dislike toward ElAl.
The parent-child analogy is obvious baloney because no (good) parent takes to the blogs to insult his child (see the OTD thread for more info). I love this blog and these forums but it's obvious that some people have a personal gripe/anger/frustration with the airline, that may or may not be rooted in good intentions, but the posts reflect accordingly.
There's the sugya of how to deal with large corporations who act against our own best wishes and another sugya of "hoche'ach tochia'ch" of how to tell off a fellow Jew for a misdeed. The two are obviously different, but can become confusing when we do this kind of stuff all day.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 19, 2018, 12:41:37 PM
Some of the hate could be from frustration because their point system is so bad and nobody can figure out how to game them like the other airlines
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: joeb1 on June 19, 2018, 12:43:35 PM
He is bringing awareness to a terrible episode that elal chose to screw their customers royally. They deserve the full brunt of this.
Halivay Vaytur
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Amusch on June 19, 2018, 12:44:23 PM
Some of the hate could be from frustration because their point system is so bad and nobody can figure out how to game them like the other airlines

Exactly my point, thank you.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on June 19, 2018, 01:01:09 PM
Oy L'rasha, Oy L'shchaino?
Nobody's losing their job because of a blog post criticizing LYs decision to ruin people's Shabbos.
If they lose their job it will be because LY can't run a proper airline and refuses to listen to criticism.

are less people flying because of the blog posts? less say a lot less people fly Elal now.
you dont think this will result in the company laying off workers?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 19, 2018, 01:04:08 PM
I don't see any problem, public bashing will just save people who would have a problem flying with them from flying with them, and not effect anyone else.
It will also hopefully be informative to them as for the corrections they need to implement.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: BP16 on June 19, 2018, 01:19:14 PM
Some of the hate could be from frustration because their point system is so bad and nobody can figure out how to game them like the other airlines
I guess you dont even know how to book a regular flight using miles so you think when someone books a flight using miles its considered gaming!
Ok so start from the beginning maybe you'll figure it out.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 19, 2018, 01:22:05 PM
I guess you dont even know how to book a regular flight using miles so you think when someone books a flight using miles its considered gaming!
Ok so start from the beginning maybe you'll figure it out.
No what i said was bad points  AND game the system 2 separate things
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 19, 2018, 01:26:26 PM
I'm not one to go promoting elal as they were the first ones to get away with one bag to Israel instead of 2 about 6 years ago and coincidentally few months later they had the crazy fare where they didn't put in the fuel charges.
Delta tried it and people made a stink so they went back to 2 but once elal did it e/o else jumped on board.

Elal has the Jewish niche the people who 1. Don't know better 2. And the people who are into supporting a Jewish / Israeli company. Kind of like a certain blog site .
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 02:01:18 PM
Elal has the Jewish niche the people who 1. Don't know better 2. And the people who are into supporting a Jewish / Israeli company. Kind of like a certain blog site .
And this story goes to prove that they're not interested in said Jewish niche, it also proves that they're not acting Jewish and there's no reason for people looking for a "Jewish airline" to use them
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Ygold on June 19, 2018, 02:14:22 PM
OP has a very good point. The ad nauseum hate here towards ElAl is both irrational and unjustified, much like the hate was towards the ex United CEO which was just plain stupid.

Now I personally try to avoid ElAl for a past previous bad experience, (1 Flight attendant negative towards the frum + bad service) but in this case, while perhaps they could of done things slightly better, they didn't do all that bad, taking into account the circumstances. There are worse airlines out there than ElAl. The amount of vitriol spewed around here is just stupid.

Just my opinion :)
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 19, 2018, 02:19:29 PM
And this story goes to prove that they're not interested in said Jewish niche, it also proves that they're not acting Jewish and there's no reason for people looking for a "Jewish airline" to use them
No exactly my point they have the clientele and they keep coming so why do more than they have to.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2018, 02:28:20 PM
It's the bottom line that counts:

Now I personally try to avoid ElAl for a past previous bad experience, (1 Flight attendant negative towards the frum + bad service)

I have avoided them for the past 18+ years for the same reasons (and limited point/mileage redemptions).

ELAL should be WELCOMING the criticism and learning from it, but unfortunately, they seem to have a DNA problem.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mgarfin on June 19, 2018, 02:35:20 PM
It's the bottom line that counts:

I have avoided them for the past 18+ years for the same reasons (and limited point/mileage redemptions).

ELAL should be WELCOMING the criticism and learning from it, but unfortunately, they seem to have a DNA problem.

Do you know of an Israeli company that's different?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 02:36:44 PM
OP has a very good point. The ad nauseum hate here towards ElAl is both irrational and unjustified, much like the hate was towards the ex United CEO which was just plain stupid.
I don't see where @Dan has "hated" on ElAl, definitely not ad naseum, he's reporting a story where ElAl messed up and lost the trust of their clients
No exactly my point they have the clientele and they keep coming so why do more than they have to.
It's not a matter of not doing more than what they have to for their clientele (BTW that's something every business should be doing, doing just enough to satisfy your clients is an easy way for a competitor to steal them), they gained the trust of their clientele and just lost it, any loss of revenue or jobs is solely on them. @Dan is just making sure that people don't just blindly jump to fly ElAl "because they're a Jewish company" or "because they don't fly on Shabbos", since they aren't and they do...
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2018, 03:01:37 PM
I don't see where @Dan has "hated" on ElAl, definitely not ad naseum, he's reporting a story where ElAl messed up and lost the trust of their clients

It's not a matter of not doing more than what they have to for their clientele (BTW that's something every business should be doing, doing just enough to satisfy your clients is an easy way for a competitor to steal them), they gained the trust of their clientele and just lost it, any loss of revenue or jobs is solely on them. @Dan is just making sure that people don't just blindly jump to fly ElAl "because they're a Jewish company" or "because they don't fly on Shabbos", since they aren't and they do...

Well said.

It almost seems like the ELAL board and entire management should be taking accounting 101, realizing what are their assets and what are their liabilities (some in actual accounting terms, and some in a broader meaning). For every commercial company, their (satisfied) clients are an asset, their employees could be an asset, a liability or both. Thinking about it as I write, clients, employees, and even some hard assets as well as a loyalty program, could be either assets or liabilities, a lot depends on how they are treated.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 03:03:56 PM
Well said.

It almost seems like the ELAL board and entire management should be taking accounting 101, realizing what are their assets and what are their liabilities (some in actual accounting terms, and some in a broader meaning). For every commercial company, their (satisfied) clients are an asset, their employees could be an asset, a liability or both. Thinking about it as I write, clients, employees, and even some hard assets as well as a loyalty program, could be either assets or liabilities, a lot depends on how they are treated.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodwill_(accounting)
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 19, 2018, 03:54:09 PM
I don't see where @Dan has "hated" on ElAl, definitely not ad naseum, he's reporting a story where ElAl messed up and lost the trust of their clientsIt's not a matter of not doing more than what they have to for their clientele (BTW that's something every business should be doing, doing just enough to satisfy your clients is an easy way for a competitor to steal them), they gained the trust of their clientele and just lost it, any loss of revenue or jobs is solely on them. @Dan is just making sure that people don't just blindly jump to fly ElAl "because they're a Jewish company" or "because they don't fly on Shabbos", since they aren't and they do...
Every biz and culture is run differently here in Israel with no competition and having the niche that they do unless there's a cheirum against them then they will operate however they want and that's an Israeli mentality if I'm making money why change or give more then I need to.
Dan isn't hating on them just reporting it and giving his views and opionions.
 At end of day w/o the elal price mistake dd would never be what it is today (most posts were random Amazon deals and ways to use ba miles nothing so eye popping and rare flight deals) that deal put him on the map and got him the same Jewish niche elal has. From there the posts increased and interest  in the site really took off bc e/o was looking for that next great deal
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 03:59:56 PM
Every biz and culture is run differently here in Israel with no competition and having the niche that they do unless there's a cheirum against them then they will operate however they want and that's an Israeli mentality if I'm making money why change or give more then I need to.
Dan isn't hating on them just reporting it and giving his views and opionions.
 At end of day w/o the elal price mistake dd would never be what it is today (most posts were random Amazon deals and ways to use ba miles nothing so eye popping and rare flight deals) that deal put him on the map and got him the same Jewish niche elal has. From there the posts increased and interest  in the site really took off bc e/o was looking for that next great deal
So what you're saying is, let ElAl run their business the way they want to, let @Dan run his business the way he wants to, and let everyone decide whom they're giving their business to. I don't think anybody disagrees on any of that, I'm also pretty sure this isn't what this thread is about
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: cozmohoot on June 19, 2018, 04:19:47 PM
Every biz and culture is run differently here in Israel with no competition and having the niche that they do unless there's a cheirum against them then they will operate however they want and that's an Israeli mentality if I'm making money why change or give more then I need to.
Dan isn't hating on them just reporting it and giving his views and opionions.
 At end of day w/o the elal price mistake dd would never be what it is today (most posts were random Amazon deals and ways to use ba miles nothing so eye popping and rare flight deals) that deal put him on the map and got him the same Jewish niche elal has. From there the posts increased and interest  in the site really took off bc e/o was looking for that next great deal
Seriously?? Elal put Dan on the map
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Amusch on June 19, 2018, 04:22:35 PM
I just think it's a wild coincidence that the companies that are most "in need" of our business advice are the ones that make decisions that negatively affect ppl who have lots of points and don't spend lots of money ( e.g. lmost recently, Hyatt, AA, and el al).
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 19, 2018, 04:24:21 PM
Seriously?? Elal put Dan on the map
Yup check the stats before that deal, the site and ddf wasn't nearly as big as it was after. People who were into points and stuff knew of dd but now e/o is clicking looking for that next big deal even people who don't care for.miles and points.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 04:28:03 PM
I just think it's a wild coincidence that the companies that are most "in need" of our business advice are the ones that make decisions that negatively affect ppl who have lots of points and don't spend lots of money ( e.g. lmost recently, Hyatt, AA, and el al).
This whole thread is dumb. I am an equal opportunity lambaster. No airline or hotel chain has escaped me calling them out when they deserve it.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 04:29:03 PM
Yup check the stats before that deal, the site and ddf wasn't nearly as big as it was after. People who were into points and stuff knew of dd but now e/o is clicking looking for that next big deal even people who don't care for.miles and points.
The 12/26/13 DL $50 glitch was far more consequential for traffic than the 8/6/12 LY glitch.
I guess that means I shouldn't take DL to task for Skypesos and deleting award charts?

Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 19, 2018, 04:30:54 PM
All ElAl has to do is run a sale and all the hypocrites will flock to them. Standards go out the window when money is involved.  :)
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 19, 2018, 04:32:04 PM
All ElAl has to do is run a sale and all the hypocrites will flock to them. Standards go out the window when money is involved.  :)
Of course that's true. Hopefully they won't choose on Thursday flight after my posts on the potential consequences.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 19, 2018, 04:38:52 PM
Of course that's true. Hopefully they won't choose on Thursday flight after my posts on the potential consequences.
LOL
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Yammer on June 19, 2018, 04:44:43 PM


I don't see where @Dan has "hated" on ElAl, definitely not ad naseum, he's reporting a story where ElAl messed up and lost the trust of their clientsIt's not a matter of not doing more than what they have to for their clientele (BTW that's something every business should be doing, doing just enough to satisfy your clients is an easy way for a competitor to steal them), they gained the trust of their clientele and just lost it, any loss of revenue or jobs is solely on them. @Dan is just making sure that people don't just blindly jump to fly ElAl "because they're a Jewish company" or "because they don't fly on Shabbos", since they aren't and they do...

+

OP has a very good point. The ad nauseum hate here towards ElAl is both irrational and unjustified, much like the hate was towards the ex United CEO which was just plain stupid.

When a company screws up again and again it's going to get more "hate". Any story that happens with UA at this point gets an "unjustified" response.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 05:08:37 PM
All ElAl has to do is run a sale and all the hypocrites will flock to them. Standards go out the window when money is involved.  :)
Last 3 times I flew to Israel I used ElAl, since they were by far cheaper than anyone else ($200+, one of them was with the Great Glitch of 2012 :) ). Doesn't mean that they're a great airline, just means that I value my money more than their shortcomings. I still wouldn't trust them with anything religious more than any other airline "because their Jewish", I also won't use them "because their Jewish".
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 19, 2018, 05:13:28 PM
All ElAl has to do is run a sale and all the hypocrites will flock to them. Standards go out the window when money is involved.  :)
How much should I be willing to accept in order to subject myself to the torment?

Though I will admit that if they sold nonstop RT in J (even if it wasn't lie flat) for under $1,600 I would probably bite.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 05:27:00 PM
I don't think anybody disagrees on any of that, I'm also pretty sure this isn't what this thread is about
Really?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 05:30:19 PM
All ElAl has to do is run a sale and all the hypocrites will flock to them. Standards go out the window when money is involved.  :)
Why is it hypocritical to be willing to accept shortfalls at a lower price? Isn't that the whole model of the LCCs?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 05:39:50 PM
Really?
Which of these four do you disagree with?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 05:44:20 PM
Which of these four do you disagree with?
  • Let ElAl run their business the way they want to
  • Let @Dan run his business the way he wants to
  • Let everyone decide whom they're giving their business too
  • This thread isn't about whether to fly ElAl or following Dan's blog
Check what I quoted
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 05:46:36 PM
Check what I quoted
You quoted the last (bolded) part of this
So what you're saying is, let ElAl run their business the way they want to, let @Dan run his business the way he wants to, and let everyone decide whom they're giving their business too. I don't think anybody disagrees on any of that, I'm also pretty sure this isn't what this thread is about
My understanding is that you do disagree with something I said there, I'm wondering which part it is that you disagree with
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 19, 2018, 05:47:52 PM
You quoted the last (bolded) part of thisMy understanding is that you do disagree with something I said there, I'm wondering which part it is that you disagree with
I think OP disagrees with all of that and that it absolutely is what the thread is about.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: JoeyShmoe on June 19, 2018, 05:50:01 PM
I think OP disagrees with all of that and that it absolutely is what the thread is about.
OP asked why so much hate towards a Jewish company, not whether ElAl is making smart business decisions or not
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: yesitsme on June 20, 2018, 12:31:14 AM
Those that doesn't hate ElAl falls in one of below categories
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Emkay on June 20, 2018, 02:01:17 AM


Those that doesn't hate ElAl falls in one of below categories
  • Doesn't fly at all
  • only flies ElAl
  • never flies ElAl

And most of the hate comes from 1st and 3rd category.
Either way I don't hate them and I fall into a 4th category, only flies premium.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: miles lover on June 20, 2018, 02:39:12 AM
+1. I happen to be frum, but a Jew is a jew, no matter the level of observance.
-1  don’t know where you were brought up. A non observant is not the same. Period. This whole threads attitude is anti Torah haskafah. This should be deleted together with the whole yeshiva world website.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: zagguru on June 20, 2018, 06:39:11 AM
-1  don’t know where you were brought up. A non observant is not the same. Period. This whole threads attitude is anti Torah haskafah. This should be deleted together with the whole yeshiva world website.

So you don’t care what happens to a Jew who is not observant?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: sky121 on June 20, 2018, 06:54:54 AM
I've flown ELAL in the past recent years because of price. Upgraded to premium economy and thank G-d. They have some of the smallest coach seats to Israel if I'm not mistaken. 

I love ELAL based on nostaliga alone but I'm not running to fly with them anytime soon unfortunately.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Hjay on June 20, 2018, 07:26:24 AM

And most of the hate comes from 1st and 3rd category.
Either way I don't hate them and I fall into a 4th category, only flies premium.

How do you book?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Ygold on June 20, 2018, 06:03:53 PM
I don't see where @Dan has "hated" on ElAl, definitely not ad naseum, he's reporting a story where ElAl messed up and lost the trust of their clientsIt's not a matter of not doing more than what they have to for their clientele

I'm not referring specifically to Rabbi Dan, I'm talking about the general attitude around here.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: elit on June 20, 2018, 07:02:47 PM
-1  don’t know where you were brought up. A non observant is not the same. Period. This whole threads attitude is anti Torah haskafah. This should be deleted together with the whole yeshiva world website.
????
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: 12HRS on June 20, 2018, 11:55:12 PM
The 12/26/13 DL $50 glitch was far more consequential for traffic than the 8/6/12 LY glitch.
I guess that means I shouldn't take DL to task for Skypesos and deleting award charts?

I wonder how much of the DL glitch traffic was Talui on the LY glitch.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: gross5g on June 24, 2018, 06:20:56 AM
I wonder how much of the DL glitch traffic was Talui on the LY glitch.
For sure had to do with it, also  all the social media that he started doing in that time.
Point is the DL glitch really.made dd a household name among the frum population and DD wouldn't be what it is today with out it
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mgarfin on June 25, 2018, 04:29:50 PM
Anyone following the controversy in Israel with ELAL moving woman for Haredi man.
With out going in to details of the story (it has been debated a million times)

The way elal replies and is busy putting off the bad press... and the way it handled the 002 shabbos issue just shows what the orthodox passenger means for elal.
It can be understood why DDF as the majority is orthodox hates ELAL. They just don't care for an orthodox passenger.



https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5296284,00.html
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2018, 04:47:41 PM
Anyone following the controversy in Israel with ELAL moving woman for Haredi man.
With out going in to details of the story (it has been debated a million times)

The way elal replies and is busy putting off the bad press... and the way it handled the 002 shabbos issue just shows what the orthodox passenger means for elal.
It can be understood why DDF as the majority is orthodox hates ELAL. They just don't care for an orthodox passenger.



https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5296284,00.html

This story needs to be taken in context. There's a wave of hatred and anti-semitism towards anything Jewish going on right now in Israel (which B.H. is starting to backfire, but there's still a long way to go - we know that the liberals/progressives only care about the rights of the "right" kind of people). The ELAL response in this case isn't anti-orthodox IMHO, it's PR/damage-control in a measured way. After all, if someone refuses to sit next to another passenger, it's their problem, not the other passenger's problem. The fact that the noisy liberal-progressives choose to make an issue out of it rather than dealing with it in a civil manner, is just an unfortunate situation, and bez"h גם זה יעבור.

The one's that need to be called out here are the people at NICE for threatening strong-arm tactics rather than seeking tolerance and an amicable solution.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 25, 2018, 04:52:07 PM
The one's that need to be called out here are the people at NICE for threatening strong-arm tactics rather than seeking tolerance and an amicable solution.
Is an amicable solution possible when strong religious beliefs are involved?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2018, 04:54:50 PM
Is an amicable solution possible when strong religious beliefs are involved?
Yes.

For example, designate male only and female only rows or seat blocks (probably won't need more than one of each at most) and post the policy clearly: you can choose a male only row or block, if you fail to do so and refuse assigned seat due to gender of person assigned to the seat next to you, you will be given the option to resolve on your own or deplane within 3 minutes.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 25, 2018, 04:55:50 PM
Yes.
You have one in mind?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2018, 04:58:02 PM
You have one in mind?
See my post edit above.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2018, 05:00:14 PM
Yes.

For example, designate male only and female only rows or seat blocks (probably won't need more than one of each at most) and post the policy clearly: you can choose a male only row or block, if you fail to do so and refuse assigned seat due to gender of person assigned to the seat next to you, you will be given the option to resolve on your own or deplane within 3 minutes.
How many they will need will depend on route and time of year, but such a solution had been used successfully by Tower Air.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2018, 05:01:58 PM
How many they will need will depend on route and time of year, but such a solution had been used successfully by Tower Air.
Well, every airline actively engages in inventory management (fare buckets), this kind of inventory management is small change compared to the fare bucket management.

I don't know much about Tower Air A"H, but the fact that ELAL hasn't come up with this simple solution up to this day, is just another piece of evidence to what I've been saying about their flawed DNA.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2018, 05:02:42 PM
Well, every airline actively engages in inventory management (fare buckets), this kind of inventory management is small change compared to the fare bucket management.
of course.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 25, 2018, 05:03:28 PM
Yes.

For example, designate male only and female only rows or seat blocks (probably won't need more than one of each at most) and post the policy clearly: you can choose a male only row or block, if you fail to do so and refuse assigned seat due to gender of person assigned to the seat next to you, you will be given the option to resolve on your own or deplane within 3 minutes.
What will they do when @ChaimMoskowitz chooses the female one ;)

Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: aygart on June 25, 2018, 05:04:34 PM
What will they do when @ChaimMoskowitz chooses the female one ;)


You will also get all of the "Rosa Parks" arguments.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2018, 05:04:50 PM
What will they do when @ChaimMoskowitz chooses the female one ;)
That's small change compared to people who choose their gender on a daily basis. They might have to limit the availability of those seat blocks based on residential zipcode (with some serious challenge questions required in order to avoid fraud).

Alternatively, just like they do for the TSA (and other airport security agencies) pat-downs, they can designate a male and female checker to verify based on objective criteria below the waistline.

And if indeed someone is caught selecting a seat assigned to a different gender, that person would have to pay for a seat elsewhere.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: as2 on June 25, 2018, 05:15:21 PM
That's small change compared to people who choose their gender on a daily basis. They might have to limit the availability of those seat blocks based on residential zipcode (with some serious challenge questions required in order to avoid fraud).

Alternatively, just like they do for the TSA (and other airport security agencies) pat-downs, they can designate a male and female checker to verify based on objective criteria below the waistline.

And if indeed someone is caught selecting a seat assigned to a different gender, that person would have to pay for a seat elsewhere.
Sounds like it would cause more problems, than the already problem ridden airline has.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on June 25, 2018, 05:16:43 PM
What will they do when @ChaimMoskowitz chooses the female one ;)
I would ask the ladies if it was OK first.


Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: as2 on June 25, 2018, 05:17:23 PM
I would ask the ladies if it was OK first.
#MeToo
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mgarfin on June 25, 2018, 06:15:45 PM
The ELAL response in this case isn't anti-orthodox IMHO, it's PR/damage-control in a measured way.

All I was saying is, that ELAL sees the need to PR/damage-control a story circulating in the secular media but doesn't feel it needs to PR/damage-control a shabbos nightmare.

Do you think ELAL released a statement in response to the negative press given to them bt DD? Why not? they don't care about us. It is the feeling you get when you fly elal.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: ExGingi on June 25, 2018, 06:30:17 PM
Do you think ELAL released a statement in response to the negative press given to them bt DD? Why not? they don't care about us. It is the feeling you get when you fly elal.
It's not that they don't care, it's that they see no benefit or need for a response. They have enough frum customers that will keep on flying with them regardless.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mgarfin on June 25, 2018, 08:19:16 PM
It's not that they don't care, it's that they see no benefit or need for a response. They have enough frum customers that will keep on flying with them regardless.
And more secular will stop flying as a result of this story?
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 26, 2018, 02:27:40 PM
https://thepointsguy.com/news/el-al-moving-women-again/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-al-faces-boycott-after-moving-women-ultra-orthodox-jewish-n886521?chsn_aclid=CLIENT_ID(cid-scope-cookie-fallback-name)
Last Friday night, yup.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: as2 on June 26, 2018, 02:30:49 PM
https://thepointsguy.com/news/el-al-moving-women-again/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-al-faces-boycott-after-moving-women-ultra-orthodox-jewish-n886521?chsn_aclid=CLIENT_ID(cid-scope-cookie-fallback-name)
Last Friday night, yup.
Was about to post this. TPG is sourceless, money hungry, biased garbage, which I avoid as it is. Here's another reason to.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: Dan on June 26, 2018, 02:35:12 PM
https://thepointsguy.com/news/el-al-moving-women-again/amp/?__twitter_impression=true
https://www.nbcnews.com/news/world/el-al-faces-boycott-after-moving-women-ultra-orthodox-jewish-n886521?chsn_aclid=CLIENT_ID(cid-scope-cookie-fallback-name)
Last Friday night, yup.
LOL
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: jj1000 on June 26, 2018, 02:43:13 PM
ALOL!
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: mmgfarb on June 26, 2018, 02:44:29 PM
Utterly ridiculous, so much for journalistic integrity.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: davidrotts63 on June 26, 2018, 02:44:41 PM
I'm more shocked about NBC. If you know anything about Elal other then the flag on the back of the plane, you'd know it can't be.
Title: Re: why does DD's hate Elal
Post by: as2 on June 26, 2018, 03:18:23 PM
Utterly ridiculous, so much for journalistic integrity.
That shipped sailed years ago.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: yesitsme on July 09, 2018, 08:02:21 PM
Because they think we enjoy tisha buv sitting cramped in seat and fasting all day
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=5396.msg1956446#msg1956446

This also explains why bornsteins serves ksml pochus pochus Mshier.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: yitzyul on August 02, 2018, 10:07:42 AM
Why when Elal sends me a spam message about my previous mated status does it have to send it as a file to download , then only after downloading it is basically a link to click on something else....
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: churnbabychurn on August 02, 2018, 11:01:55 AM
I've flown ELAL in the past recent years because of price. Upgraded to premium economy and thank G-d. They have some of the smallest coach seats to Israel if I'm not mistaken. 

I love ELAL based on nostaliga alone but I'm not running to fly with them anytime soon unfortunately.
I don't fly international often at all, but i do fly within the us though. So that's what I would be comparing too.

 just flew elal on the new dreamliner, in ecconomy, and it was pretty decent service and comfort.
Much better then any United economy flights
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: gingyguy on October 04, 2018, 04:18:07 PM
im assuming this doesn't help
https://en.globes.co.il/en/article-flightstats-el-al-39-out-of-41-airlines-in-punctuality-1001254972
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: mendyt on November 09, 2018, 09:49:41 AM
Sometimes they deserve credit..
https://business.facebook.com/ELALGlobal/posts/1946439862110063
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: eliraps on November 12, 2018, 02:41:29 PM
The Rebbe was a fan of El Al:  ;)

See letter of the Rebbe‘s secretariat published in The Letter and the Spirit page 244:
―As a matter of fact, far from discouraging Jews from traveling via El Al, the Rebbe
favors this line as evidenced by the fact that this year too, the Lubavitcher Chasidim
coming to visit the Rebbe from Kfar Chabad made their round trip via El Al. See
also the Rebbe‘s letter to Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin dated 23rd Tamuz 5716, Igrot kodesh vol. 13 page 293
 מובן שנסיעתם נסתדרה שבכל מקום האפשרי יסעו דוקא באל על וכדרז"ל עה"פ קנה מיד עמיתך.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: mmgfarb on November 12, 2018, 02:51:00 PM
Why should that matter?
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ExGingi on November 12, 2018, 03:06:13 PM
Why should that matter?

I think there are two reasons:

1. The reason stated of קנה מיד עמיתך.
2. Though we all know that ELAL is far from being שומר שבת, there is definitely a פרהסיא value to the fact that they don't schedule any flights to operate on Shabbos or יו"ט (though they do publicly operate on יו"ט שני של גלויות). And that should be treated with ימין מקרבת.

The above notwithstanding. I personally choose not to do business with ELAL due to my personal experience with them (as well as other negatives).
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: yesitsme on November 12, 2018, 04:26:28 PM
The Rebbe was a fan of El Al:  ;)

See letter of the Rebbe‘s secretariat published in The Letter and the Spirit page 244:
―As a matter of fact, far from discouraging Jews from traveling via El Al, the Rebbe
favors this line as evidenced by the fact that this year too, the Lubavitcher Chasidim
coming to visit the Rebbe from Kfar Chabad made their round trip via El Al. See
also the Rebbe‘s letter to Rabbi Shlomo Yosef Zevin dated 23rd Tamuz 5716, Igrot kodesh vol. 13 page 293
 מובן שנסיעתם נסתדרה שבכל מקום האפשרי יסעו דוקא באל על וכדרז"ל עה"פ קנה מיד עמיתך.
I bet it wasn't the ksml that he enjoyed - Its probably because its the only Yiddish company
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: as2 on November 18, 2018, 01:03:12 AM
Dansdeals has more hate for elal. Hmm I'm starting to think maybe there's actually something to it
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:12:47 AM
Maybe stating the pilot lied should have been worded differently until all the facts are known.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 01:17:31 AM
Maybe stating the pilot lied should have been worded differently until all the facts are known.
What facts would change it to not be a lie?

Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:20:44 AM
What facts would change it to not be a lie?
If he planned to let them off but was told after the fact to take off instead. If we are going to consider that a lie then it would also be a lie if I said I was going to pick you up at 6:30 but didn't because I was hit by a truck.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: as2 on November 18, 2018, 01:23:16 AM
If he planned to let them off but was told after the fact to take off instead. If we are going to consider that a lie then it would also be a lie if I said I was going to pick you up at 6:30 but didn't because I was hit by a truck.
It's a lot easier to get on the PA system and tell passengers that you were denied a return to the gate, than to call me post mortem.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 01:24:55 AM
If he planned to let them off but was told after the fact to take off instead. If we are going to consider that a lie then it would also be a lie if I said I was going to pick you up at 6:30 but didn't because I was hit by a truck.
If this were the case then he should have picked up the PA and said that. He never once said that and I've now spoken to multiple people on this flight.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:27:22 AM
It's a lot easier to get on the PA system and tell passengers that you were denied a return to the gate, than to call me post mortem.
Might be easier but no different. My point is if he didn't know ahead of time he could not return to the gate then IMHO it is not a lie. If this was the case for sure he didn't trick anyone. If it turns out he didn't trick anyone does that mean Dan lied to us? Of course not!!!
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:28:23 AM
If this were the case then he should have picked up the PA and said that.
I agree but the point is still if he knew before the fact to make it a lie.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 01:30:55 AM
I agree but the point is still if he knew before the fact to make it a lie.
We'll never know this information, but a normal compassionate human being would explain why he didn't just pull off what appeared to be a brazen lie.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 18, 2018, 01:37:50 AM
Might be easier but no different. My point is if he didn't know ahead of time he could not return to the gate then IMHO it is not a lie. If this was the case for sure he didn't trick anyone. If it turns out he didn't trick anyone does that mean Dan lied to us? Of course not!!!
Who would not allow him to return to the gate? He's the captain. He has final say.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:38:29 AM
We'll never know this information, but a normal compassionate human being would explain why he didn't just pull off what appeared to be a brazen lie.
The information might come out and I agree he should have explained. Now we are up to a "brazen lie"?  :)
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:39:30 AM
Who would not allow him to return to the gate? He's the captain. He has final say.
I have no idea who has the final say.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 18, 2018, 01:50:48 AM
I have no idea who has the final say.
Happens regularly enough. Emergency comes up, such as a sick passenger, unruly passenger or another safety issue, the pilot will return to the gate and s/he absolutely has the final say on the safe operation of the aircraft.

More than 100 "unruly" passengers is most certainly a safety issue. The fact that he gambled that they would fall for his lie and not get out of their seats once they realized they were going to take off could be argued was dangerous behavior, not just a little lie or trick.

The lie is especially egregious if we are to believe the El Al claim that passengers were violent. There is no way in 1,000,000 years that any pilot would take off with passengers on board who had assaulted the crew or other passengers.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: BZ12 on November 18, 2018, 01:59:44 AM
From a passenger:

CP
EL-AL SPONSORED SHABBOS OF UNITY


This Shabbos I had the tremendous privilege to be a part of something amazing, beautiful and enlightening. I am hoping El Al will see this and understand that there is a much better headline than the false headline “Haredim Riot On Plane” which I currently see online.   
Here is the short of it. Our El Al flight was supposed to leave at 6:30pm. 3 members of the crew were late and we started boarding at 8:30pm during which the crew members arrived. At 9:10pm the flight doors were closed and everything was calm for about an hour.
At around 10pm many of the passengers who were concerned about Shabbos starting asking the crew members for detail about departure and no answers were given other than we are leaving in 5 minutes. Keep in mind, that at 10:25pm sitting on a JFK runway,  El-AL’s website showed our flight as enroute having departed at 9:30PM.
I was sitting in business class, my seat was directly next to the stairs going to second floor, and 3 rows behind the first class food prep galley. I heard every exchange. At no time was there any physical threat presented by passengers concerned about Shabbos.  I am loathe to use the term Chareidim, this was not some Neturei Karta protest full of black clad chasidim spewing nonsense. These were Jews from all walks of life and varied backgrounds who were concerned about Shabbos.
At 11:35pm there were about 40 passengers, myself included, who stood by the exit door and expressed our wishes to disembark from the plane.  By this time we were sitting on the tarmac for two and half hours. One of the stewardesses told us that if they take us back to the gate and we get off the plane we would lose our tickets and not be rebooked.  I am not sure if she was trying to shock us into sitting or if this was the real policy, but our response was unanimous;. every single person said that’s fine, we are ok with that, just take us back to the gate so we don’t violate Shabbos.   Not one person said, “What?? No,you have to rebook us”, or, “you can’t do that”, there was a simple, basic understanding, we had Shabbos.
At one point, someone whom I later found out to be Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin got on the intercom and said that he spoke to the pilot, and that the pilot guaranteed we would get to the airport before Shabbos, and that he (Rabbi Sorotzkin) arranged for everyone to have a place and a meal for Shabbos if they did not have time get to where they needed since we would arrive only one hour before Shabbos.

Many of us, myself included did not sit down and expressed our desire to go back the gate.
At that point the captain came onto the intercom.  He told us we were going to go back to the gate as soon as everyone was seated.  And we all went back to our seats.
I can’t begin to describe the sinking feeling in my stomach as I saw the plane turn away from the terminals and face the runway.   In less than 6 minutes after telling us to return to our seats to go back to the gate, we were in the air. FY I- there was no Wifi on the flight which meant our only source of information for the rest of the flight was the El-Al crew.
Four hours into the flight the Captain announced that because of the “Cheiredim” the plane would stop in Athens.  At which point, all the people who want to get off for Shabbos can get off the plane first, and then, (and here is the kicker), all the people who want to continue to Israel will also have to get off the plane and go on a different plane from IsraAir to go to Israel.
What a shame… I wish El Al had announced the truth.  We were stopping in Athens because El-Al made a series of bad calls, and once they landed they could not depart on Shabbos which is why they needed an non El-Al plane to continue to Israel on Shabbos.
This only caused the internal tension to rise and as our only source of information was the crew, who were less than helpful and not at all sympathetic . To be very clear, no one was angry at the stewardesses, everyone understood that they did not make the decisions.  We were requesting to speak to the pilot or someone who can speak for the pilot. Again, there was no attempts to break into the cockpit, there were no physical altercations. Yes, there were some raised voices, but most of the time (I have the videos showing) it was secular Israeli passengers who came to yell at the passengers who were concerned about Shabbos that we were ruining their weekend.  

This in itself was absurd because we did not make the decision to stop in Athens and the majority of the religious passengers preferred that we continue to Israel and be stuck in the Tel Aviv airport.
As the minutes crept closer to our arrival into Athens there were discussions on the plane about whether it was halachically better to stay on the plane or to disembark in Athens.   We had no clue what to expect. Would we stay in the airport? Was there a hotel? What would we eat?
When they served breakfast I realized that the packaged egg which they served for breakfast and the half  a sandwich I had left from when I boarded the plane could very well be all we had to eat on Shabbos. I even put some nuts into my backpack for Shalosh Seudos.
When it was clear that we were landing in Athens and we would begin our descent we returned to our seats.  Many of us tried to separate our Muktza items and to make sure our Tallis and Siddur were easily accessible.
After the plane landed and we stopped we disembarked on one of those rollaway staircases to get onto one of several shuttles. I was one of the first people onto the shuttle and I watched as dozens of more Yidden came off the plane with no other thought than, to stay on the plane would be chillul Shabbos, and getting off the plane was the best chance of keeping Shabbos.   Chasidim got off the plane, men with black hats, colored shirts, in t-shirts, in suits, women with sheitels, snoods, no sheitels, in skirts, in pants; everyone coming off the plane was united in one thing – We believe in Hashem, and his Torah, and Shabbos was our gift and our inheritance and we would keep it.
As the first shuttle was full and started towards the airport (there were more shuttles behind us) everyone broke into a song for Shabbos Kodesh.
Once we got to the airport we were met by a women from El Al who was very sweet and took the time to explain to us that we were would be staying across the street (literally) at a hotel and they would take us as soon as the other shuttles arrive.
As they led us into the hotel it was very chaotic.  There were four hotel clerks and people started surging towards the front desk.  At that point, one Rabbi, whom I later learned was Rabbi Akiva Katz yelled above the crowd and explained to everyone that we would need to create orderly lines in order not to overwhelm the clerks.  He also let us know that they had set aside a place for davening and that Chabad had prepared food. This helped reduce the stress in the room and the process became more orderly as people were focused on getting to their rooms and ready for Shabbos in the 40 minutes we had left to Shkia.
Walking into Kabbalas Shabbos (I was late) was beautiful. The room was full of 60 or 70 men and about 10 women and everyone was singing.  Rabbi Jesse Horn from Yeshiva Ateres Kohanim led Kabbalas Shabbos. We were all so happy to be able to keep Shabbos, and the davening and level of simcha was very high. I think we must have danced four or five times during Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv.  
After Kabbalas Shabbos we walked through the hotel to the dining area and I can tell you with 100% conviction that what I saw was beyond anything I could have imagined.
85% of the dining area was reserved for our Shabbos meal.  The tables were set beautifully with bottles of wine, grape juice and challah rolls.   Where the hotel usually displayed it’s salad bars, and assortment of cold meats it was now filled with platters of gefilte fish, 6 or 7 large bowls with a variety of salads and dips, it was as if this had planned for weeks in advance. There was plenty of fleish for the main course and an assortment of side dishes to accompany it.   
The Seudah was beautiful and everyone sang zemiros and niggunim and there were many Divrei Torah. Several people had stopped at the Duty free store to get bourbon and scotch for the Oilam, and it was very leibdige and the singing went on for quite a while
I woke up several times during the night as I was still on NY time and every time I went downstairs to the lobby there were people learning together or talking about the Parsha.
Shacharis was another beautiful davening and it was interesting to see how it was a mix of Nusach Sefard, Sefardi, Ashkenaz.
After davening several people went to the kitchen to help Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel (the Chabad Shluchim in Athens) prepare for seuda.
There were also two shiurim being given, one in Hebrew, and one in English by Rabbi Yossi Baumol.
After the Shiurim we went to the dining room where like the previous night there were copious amounts of delicious food, a wonderful meat kugel wrapped in pastry, brisket, a large assortment of salads.  Unlike the previous night, where everyone sat next to people who were closest to them hashkafically, the seating during the Shabbos day Seuda was heterogeneous. Chasidim sat and schmoozed with Tzionim, Modox sat with black hats… I only use these labels so you can visualize the seating, but there were no labels at this Seuda, we sat in true achdus.
The rest of Shabbos and the subsequent trip back to the airport and our return flight to Israel was unremarkable in that I don’t need to bore you with the details.
First I would like to thank the following people.
Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin who had the foresight before the plane took off to have his organization contact El-Al and Chabad and put pressure on to make this Shabbos happen.
Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel, the Chabad Rabbi and Rebbetzin based in Athens, Greece.  They got the call at 11am Friday morning and by 4pm that same afternoon they had prepared a beautiful  Shabbos for 150+ adults which was not lacing in anyway.
My 150+ new friends and passengers who gave me an experience and Shabbos I will never forget.
Now a quick note to to El-AL.  Hi El-Al, I don’t know who handles your marketing and social media program but you wasted a huge opportunity.  Next time this happens, here is what you do. You make sure you get the same hotel and that Chabad sets up a beautiful Shabbos.  You hire a Greek photographer and video guy, you video the amazing Shabbos – and then you promote it as an El-Al sponsored Shabbos Unity.   If you need more advice feel free to call or email me, or just send me some tickets as a thank you.
I would like to leave off with a few thoughts having just spent one of the most amazing Shabbos of my life.
1.     150+ Jews from all backgrounds and hashkafic orientations, wearing every outfit possible walked off a plane with one thought – We will keep Shabbos, even if it means sleeping in an airport.
2.  Unlike our Great Grandparents, who were fired if the did not work on Shabbos (USA), or where were ostracized, and possibly incarcerated for keeping Shabbos (USSR). How often do we get a chance to be moser nefesh for Shabbos?  This was a tremendous gift from Hashem to us that we had the chance to show Hashem how much we love him and his Torah, and we ALL took it.
3.     Every parent in that hotel who was not able to be home with their children that Shabbos taught their child a lesson that they could not have taught them in a 100 Shabbosim at home.   They showed that Shabbos means so much to Mommy, Tatty, Ima, Abba, etc that they would walk off a plane in the middle of a foreign country with no guaranty of food or a place to sleep.  
4.     Yom Tov in the Beis Hamikdash was probably like this Shabbos.   Jews from all over coming together for Hashem and his mitzvos.I hope to see all of my fellow passengers this Pesach bringing korbanos in the Beis Hamikdash.
May we be zoche to see Mashiach and the return of the Beis Hamikdash.

With much love
Ben Chafetz
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 02:10:31 AM
From a passenger:
WOW after reading this all I can think of is a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 07:34:38 AM
Happens regularly enough. Emergency comes up, such as a sick passenger, unruly passenger or another safety issue, the pilot will return to the gate and s/he absolutely has the final say on the safe operation of the aircraft.

More than 100 "unruly" passengers is most certainly a safety issue. The fact that he gambled that they would fall for his lie and not get out of their seats once they realized they were going to take off could be argued was dangerous behavior, not just a little lie or trick.

The lie is especially egregious if we are to believe the El Al claim that passengers were violent. There is no way in 1,000,000 years that any pilot would take off with passengers on board who had assaulted the crew or other passengers.

This all ties back to what I've been saying for years, that ELAL has a corporate DNA culture problem (of arrogance and condescending attitude towards their paying customers). All the stories we hear are just various manifestations of that problem.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: a good yeshiva bachur on November 18, 2018, 12:22:06 PM
https://simchaspot.com/blog/2018/11/08/mans-wife-gives-birth-while-he-was-on-a-plane/
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 12:34:20 PM
https://simchaspot.com/blog/2018/11/08/mans-wife-gives-birth-while-he-was-on-a-plane/
Wonder if this story will make DDMS.  :)
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: as2 on November 18, 2018, 12:57:59 PM
Wonder if this story will make DDMS.  :)
It should! Credit should always be given where credit is due, and I think Dan typically does a good job at that.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on November 19, 2018, 08:11:10 AM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ? 
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 19, 2018, 08:13:03 AM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ?
No
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Chief Rabbi of New York on November 19, 2018, 08:14:08 AM
No

why not ?
why cant we look at the cup half full ?
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 19, 2018, 08:15:53 AM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ?

Not any more than one might thank a troll for an interesting discussion happening in a thread they happened to have started.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 09:15:25 AM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ? 
Is this a joke?
Everything in the world happens for a reason, including theft and murder.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: yesitsme on November 19, 2018, 09:21:05 AM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ?
sure,
You should also thank Robert Gregory Bowers, he raised a lot of money for Pittsburgh community.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Lou Bob on November 19, 2018, 09:24:16 AM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ? 
seriously? If the funds were meant to be raised, there would have been another way. If they weren't, then even this incident wouldn't have done it.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: Lou Bob on November 19, 2018, 09:24:31 AM
sure,
You should also thank Robert Gregory Bowers, he raised a lot of money for Pittsburgh community.
see previous post.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 12:17:04 PM
everything happens for a reason.
if Elal didnt lie to everyone, maybe the mikvah in athens would not have the necessary funds otherwise.
should we praise elal for being the shliach ?
Isn't that the beauty of what we believe in? We will never know the reason in our lifetime.
Title: Re: Why does DansDeals hate Elal?
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 19, 2018, 12:19:29 PM
Isn't that the beauty of what we believe in? We will never know the reason in our lifetime.