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DansDeals Forum => Credit Cards => Topic started by: Amexpoints on July 03, 2018, 07:56:38 PM

Title: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Amexpoints on July 03, 2018, 07:56:38 PM
Does anyone have a copy of the offer terms from 2014 where it states that points have no cash value? The IRS expects taxes for points earned and it would helpful. Thank you.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 03, 2018, 08:35:05 PM


The IRS expects taxes for points earned and it would helpful. Thank you.

Since when?

Context would help.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 03, 2018, 08:38:52 PM
CID?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 10:46:28 AM
Offering $1k reward to first person to email or post copy of a 2104 Amex offer that states in the terms that points have no cash value!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Alexsei on July 04, 2018, 11:04:02 AM
Offering $1k reward to first person to email or post copy of a 2104 Amex offer that states in the terms that points have no cash value!
here you go https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/internationalcardshop/en_au/pdf/the-platinum-card/getwebimage.pdf

(https://i.imgur.com/mmJ6LnY.png)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Alexsei on July 04, 2018, 11:07:04 AM
here you go https://icm.aexp-static.com/Internet/internationalcardshop/en_au/pdf/the-platinum-card/getwebimage.pdf

(https://i.imgur.com/mmJ6LnY.png)

Looks like it's the australian version...
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 11:14:20 AM
Needs to be USA version and the entire internet was scrubbed even using way back machine they were paid to erase the info so best bet is to find an actual copy or scanned copy from  that time
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 11:16:13 AM
Needs to be USA version and the entire internet was scrubbed even using way back machine they were paid to erase the info so best bet is to find an actual copy or scanned copy from  that time

Just curious, what will it be used for?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Alexsei on July 04, 2018, 11:17:55 AM
Just curious, what will it be used for?
Does anyone have a copy of the offer terms from 2014 where it states that points have no cash value? The IRS expects taxes for points earned and it would helpful. Thank you.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: TimT on July 04, 2018, 11:19:50 AM
Needs to be USA version and the entire internet was scrubbed even using way back machine they were paid to erase the info so best bet is to find an actual copy or scanned copy from  that time
Who paid who ?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 11:22:01 AM


There is more to this. The IRS does not wake up one day and sends an invoice for points earned.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: jj1000 on July 04, 2018, 11:27:56 AM
"5. Points accrued in any Program account do not constitute property of the Cardmember and are not transferable by operation of law or otherwise to any person or entity and can not be transferred to any other Program account."

How are they charging for something that isn't your property?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 11:28:18 AM
Looked through terms from cards from then. Nothing there about points value other than one that says MR points are worth based on what you redeem for.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: jj1000 on July 04, 2018, 11:31:50 AM
Did you try to use this link? https://www.americanexpress.com/content/dollarcard/membership-rewards/terms-and-conditions.html
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 11:39:49 AM
Yes exactly but thatís Europe we need USA
Dan itís imposible u looked through terms from 2014 because itís not anywhere on the internet
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 11:42:34 AM
.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2018, 11:43:09 AM
.
#thesource
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 11:46:50 AM
2014 terms online, knock yourself out:
https://web.archive.org/web/20141115194726/https://rewards.americanexpress.com/myca/loyalty/us/catalog/tandc?mrlinknav=footer-tandc
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 04, 2018, 11:53:52 AM

Since when?

Context would help.

Bump.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: yelped on July 04, 2018, 12:12:26 PM
2014 terms online, knock yourself out:
https://web.archive.org/web/20141115194726/https://rewards.americanexpress.com/myca/loyalty/us/catalog/tandc?mrlinknav=footer-tandc
I searched 2013 too a couple of weeks ago and didn't find anything..
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 12:41:31 PM
Itís not full terms of u scroll to bottom of page and click on full  terms for MR rewards where it says the value of them  it will bump u too 2016
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 12:48:30 PM
If u hve. Aterms from offer from 204 it will hve to say the value of the points just like it says in every single offer today
It will say one of two things either points have no cash value or value depends on use if u donít see either of those things than u have not found the correct page of terms
Itís included in every offer that offers points here is current link to offer as u can see second page of terms it says what value is https://www.americanexpress.com/us/credit-cards/card-application/apply/prospect/terms/platinum-charge-card/25330-10-0#offer-terms
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 01:22:11 PM
Does it have to be 2014?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 01:43:44 PM
No it doesnít but u wonít find it anywhere later than early 2015 so starting from 2014 going back would be the best bet to find it I would think
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 05:58:03 PM
Come
On guys $1100
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 04, 2018, 06:00:24 PM
^^ Dude is totally getting slammed by a loan shark.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 04, 2018, 06:53:10 PM
^^ Dude is totally getting slammed by a loan shark.
Iím not sure what exactly is going on here but thereís definitely something weíre missing, this makes no sense.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 07:06:57 PM
Iím not sure what exactly is going on here but thereís definitely something weíre missing, this makes no sense.
IRS is claiming points are taxable it seems like.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 07:08:00 PM
Have T&C's from 12/20/2013 and it does not say anything about value of points one way or the other.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 07:11:44 PM
Have T&C's from 12/20/2013 and it does not say anything about value of points one way or the other.
I already told him that. He doesn't care, instead he sends me nasty messages.
Wicked bizarre.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Alexsei on July 04, 2018, 07:17:14 PM
is he betting to get $2000? or else he must be very very desperate
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 04, 2018, 07:21:33 PM
Is Pointsallday the same guy as the OP?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 07:24:57 PM
Is Pointsallday the same guy as the OP?
Why would you think that?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Alexsei on July 04, 2018, 07:29:59 PM
Is Pointsallday the same guy as the OP?
no they just both happened to have entangled themselves with the IRS at the same time
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 07:49:07 PM
no they just both happened to have entangled themselves with the IRS at the same time
Maybe it is like Chase shutdowns. Comes in waves.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 07:52:28 PM
U never said u have t and c from 2013 u said something about rebates and than just ignored if u really have the full t an c from a real offer from 2013 than feel free to either post it or email it to me thanks
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 07:55:54 PM
U never said u have t and c from 2013 u said something about rebates and than just ignored if u really have the full t an c from a real offer from 2013 than feel free to either post it or email it to me thanks
It says nothing one way or the other about value of points. Won't do you any good.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 07:56:54 PM
Because u donít have it your working with Amex and deflecting to cover it up thing logically if the t and c from pre 2015 never mentioned value of points why would the whole internet be scrubbed form it u can not pull up full terms from rewards from than what u sent Dan is only part of it as proven when clicking on terms it redirects u to 2016
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: chinagel on July 04, 2018, 07:58:01 PM
Because u donít have it your working with Amex and deflecting to cover it up thing logically if the t and c from pre 2015 never mentioned value of points why would the whole internet be scrubbed form it u can not pull up full terms from rewards from than what u sent Dan is only part of it as proven when clicking on terms it redirects u to 2016
Need "Google Punctuation" for this one.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 08:13:53 PM
Simple u guys claim the 2013 t and c doesnít say anything about points value great prove it post it or send it to me Iím calling bluff because none of u have an actual copy
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Mordyk on July 04, 2018, 08:21:20 PM
Need "Google Punctuation" for this one.
;D
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 04, 2018, 08:24:07 PM
Simple u guys claim the 2013 t and c doesnít say anything about points value great prove it post it or send it to me Iím calling bluff because none of u have an actual copy
Instead of getting upset, why don't you tell us what exactly is going on and maybe someone can help you.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 08:43:42 PM
Why does everyone feel the need to know exactly whatís going there is someone a client who has beeen audited by the irs and is having some  major issues one of the things they have brought up is the points he had huge biz spent millions every year and of course never bothered to report the points as everyone knows points have no cash value well guess what Amex now says value depneds on use only on thier USA website not any other country and wipes the internet from old terms prior to the 2015 change so would be really useful to get copy of the old terms so please if no one has nahas hung smart to say donít say it and no there is no need for us to give more info Iím asking for a simple piece of paper or copy of it scanned either someone can give it and get paid or they canít. Donít say 2013 etc doesnít mention anything about value as if u know itís a fact without producing the full terms from thier rewards from that time and FYI weíve spoken to some very lnwoledagble ppl in this area who swear that USA uses to say points have no cash value
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2018, 08:47:01 PM
Simple u guys claim the 2013 t and c doesnít say anything about points value great prove it post it or send it to me Iím calling bluff because none of u have an actual copy
Why do you seem to feel that people here owe you something?

What kind of client?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 08:47:44 PM
In your face!!!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 04, 2018, 08:53:33 PM
Did you ask them why it's not considered a rebate?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 08:57:19 PM
Accounting client.   No one owes us anything we are offering $1100 reward and that not in our face that is not a full terms of rewards from 2013!! Or from an offer at all  That is one random paper from 2013 I posted above how the current offers look on Amex !! Under amount of points offered on second page after that will say on the bottom value of points
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 04, 2018, 08:59:59 PM
Hey listen if u wanna argue with the irs they donít give a dam what we think and what makes sense to us we need a smoking gun page like the one Iím requesting to end the convo before it starts so either someone has it and we will pay nicely for it or someone doesnít thatís it Iím checking out for the night will check back tomorrow good luck on someone finding it Hatzlacha  and happy July 4th:)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 09:01:43 PM
Accounting client.   No one owes us anything we are offering $1100 reward and that not in our face that is not a full terms of rewards from 2013!! Or from an offer at all  That is one random paper from 2013 I posted above how the current offers look on Amex !! Under amount of points offered on second page after that will say on the bottom value of points
I have cardmember agreement part 1 and 2. Also the supplement card member agreement. Everything that came with the Business Platinum from 12/2013. You want a scan of all of it the price is 5K!!!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 09:03:00 PM
Hey listen if u wanna argue with the irs they donít give a dam what we think and what makes sense to us we need a smoking gun page like the one Iím requesting to end the convo before it starts so either someone has it and we will pay nicely for it or someone doesnít thatís it Iím checking out for the night will check back tomorrow good luck on someone finding it Hatzlacha  and happy July 4th:)
The IRS doesn't care what you have from Amex.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: TimT on July 04, 2018, 09:05:18 PM
And Amex canít ďscrub the internetĒ
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2018, 09:06:12 PM
Accounting client.   No one owes us anything we are offering $1100 reward and that not in our face that is not a full terms of rewards from 2013!! Or from an offer at all  That is one random paper from 2013 I posted above how the current offers look on Amex !! Under amount of points offered on second page after that will say on the bottom value of points
When you correspond with the IRS do you write the same way you are writing here?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 04, 2018, 09:14:57 PM
Even if it does have cash value the IRS considers it a rebate. If they're insisting that it"s taxable, it's probably a mistake and you should go to court, I'm not a lawyer but the IRS famously said in 2002 that points are considered a rebate.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2018, 09:16:08 PM
Even if it does have cash value the IRS considers it a rebate. If they're insisting that it"s taxable, it's probably a mistake and you should go to court, I'm not a lawyer but the IRS famously said in 2002 that points are considered a rebate.
Or there is more background to this.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 09:16:56 PM
Even if it does have cash value the IRS considers it a rebate. If they're insisting that it"s taxable, it's probably a mistake and you should go to court, I'm not a lawyer but the IRS famously said in 2002 that points are considered a rebate.
What if he sold the points?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 04, 2018, 09:19:36 PM
What if he sold the points?
What if someone pays you for a rebate card, is it taxable?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 09:22:30 PM
What is you sell a rebate card, is it taxable?
Ask your accountant.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 04, 2018, 10:03:10 PM
AMEX scrubbing the internet? DDF colluding with AMEX? Hysteria involving hidden T&C's from 5 years ago? Vague details about wanting to stop various government organizations "before it becomes an issue?"

Very possible OP is a paranoid schizophrenic.

Oh, and CM, definitely double the price.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: gingyguy on July 04, 2018, 10:05:40 PM
AMEX scrubbing the internet? DDF colluding with AMEX? Hysteria involving hidden T&C's from 5 years ago? Vague details about wanting to stop various government organizations "before it becomes an issue?"

Very possible OP is a paranoid schizophrenic.

Oh, and CM, definitely double the price.
yep ... does dan get advertising revenue from this?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 10:16:24 PM
I don't share this stuff normally, but he did threaten to post it, so I may as well post it first.
Have fun trying to help this guy with helpful advice as I did...

(https://i.gyazo.com/6e18efcfb4572b6ecdffeabb8ef11a1a.png)
(https://i.gyazo.com/ffdfa12ddeb8f09b323ce236fad1a1a3.png)
(https://i.gyazo.com/dd1cf21c7e55908ab519e5800cc57cbc.png)



Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 10:21:18 PM
I don't share this stuff normally, but he did threaten to post it, so I may as well post it first.
Have fun trying to help this guy with helpful advice as I did...
Does this mean I am not getting my 5K? :)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 10:22:05 PM
The saying goes that it's a rebate, but what about a rebate on a biz card? Why are they not sending out 1099's?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 10:23:16 PM
The saying goes that it's a rebate, but what about a rebate on a biz card? Why are they not sending out 1099's?
No idea what your question is.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 04, 2018, 10:23:36 PM
The saying goes that it's a rebate, but what about a rebate on a biz card? Why are they not sending out 1099's?
100/1 there is more to the story.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 10:24:39 PM
No idea what your question is.

If I earn a rebate on my biz card (points or cashbacks) why isn't it considered newly earned money?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 10:25:59 PM
If i earn a rebate on my biz card (points or cashbacks) why isn't it considered newly earned money?
It's a rebate of your purchase. Why does a business card change that?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 10:26:51 PM
It's a rebate of your purchase. Why does a business card change that?

Because it does not go back to the business, it goes into a personal pocket.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 10:27:16 PM
Because it does not go back to the business, it goes into a personal pocket.
Zero difference.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 10:27:57 PM
Zero difference.

Please explain why it's not considered "newly" earned money for that person.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: yelped on July 04, 2018, 10:28:26 PM
Does anyone have a copy of old amex
t&c where it said clearly that MR points have no cash value? A cache version is fine. I desperate need it for my accountant. Thanks
Update: PAYING $100 FOR THIS INFO.
PM for details of you found the requested info
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 04, 2018, 10:28:44 PM
Aslan? The lion?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: sillypainter on July 04, 2018, 10:31:20 PM


Good find. I'm sure @Dan can verify, but looking at his old posts, you can see a similar (bad) writing style, looks like he opened a new name for this rant.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: yelped on July 04, 2018, 10:36:11 PM
Good find. I'm sure @Dan can verify, but looking at his old posts, you can see a similar (bad) writing style, looks like he opened a new name for this rant.
Nah, I wouldn't accuse him of that. Elimmm seems like a mentsch. I pm'ed back and forth. This may be the accountant, or unrelated.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ben89 on July 04, 2018, 11:36:08 PM
Why does everyone feel the need to know exactly whatís going there is someone a client who has beeen audited by the irs and is having some  major issues one of the things they have brought up is the points he had huge biz spent millions every year and of course never bothered to report the points as everyone knows points have no cash value well guess what Amex now says value depneds on use only on thier USA website not any other country and wipes the internet from old terms prior to the 2015 change so would be really useful to get copy of the old terms so please if no one has nahas hung smart to say donít say it and no there is no need for us to give more info Iím asking for a simple piece of paper or copy of it scanned either someone can give it and get paid or they canít. Donít say 2013 etc doesnít mention anything about value as if u know itís a fact without producing the full terms from thier rewards from that time and FYI weíve spoken to some very lnwoledagble ppl in this area who swear that USA uses to say points have no cash value
i wish i had nahas hung to say
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 04, 2018, 11:37:06 PM
They have not. There is clear IRS guidance that credit card rewards are purchase rebates.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: lubaby on July 04, 2018, 11:47:13 PM
Paging @TimT  :D
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 04, 2018, 11:59:10 PM
Because u donít have it your working with Amex and deflecting to cover it up thing logically if the t and c from pre 2015 never mentioned value of points why would the whole internet be scrubbed form it u can not pull up full terms from rewards from than what u sent Dan is only part of it as proven when clicking on terms it redirects u to 2016
First of all, this is one of the most laughable thing I have ever seen on DDF and I've been here almost 3 years now. Second of all, I have no idea how you landed clients that do millions in dollars of business a year if your English is this bad. Have some respect for the members you're asking for help from and use at least the bare minimum of spell check and punctuation, this isn't your local hockers whatsapp chat.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: TimT on July 05, 2018, 12:04:52 AM
Paging @TimT  :D
This is one of the most panicky, hysterical, irrational threads I've ever come across on DDF.
:)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Alexsei on July 05, 2018, 12:07:08 AM
ok let's give him another chance to come in with a new username
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 12:33:31 AM
They have not. There is clear IRS guidance that credit card rewards are purchase rebates.
The case may be different when you are MSing, as it is what I believe is called an extension of wealth, that when you walk out with more money then you came in with you have income.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: elimmm on July 05, 2018, 07:21:21 AM
Nah, I wouldn't accuse him of that. Elimmm seems like a mentsch. I pm'ed back and forth. This may be the accountant, or unrelated.

just to "clear my name"

I didnt start this thread, @Dan can verify by IP, I am not even in the USA now. I posted a $200 award for this info a week or 2 ago, after someone requested it "urgently" by email. I was promised $200 if I find the info. Since I didnt find it myself, I posted the request on a random thread. (I even PMed Dan, but didnt merit a response :) ) No one threatened me, rather someone sent an email begging for the info to help w taxes for his friend. I PMed back and forth w a few fellow DDFers and everyone was only trying to help.
I dont know why or when the negativity started, but i gave up looking for the requested info a while ago. Apparently this fellow (the OP?) is desperate for the info and upset that people arent responding as he expected. Maybe he feels that people r bargaining w him while he is in a situation w IRS. Either way, I dont know the accountant nor his clients. I was only reposting an urgent request that i got by email.
I wish everyone happy hunting (if the t&c wasnt found yet.) And hope people are more respectful, even when they are desperate for help.
                    Wishing y'all good luck, 
(thanks @yelped for letting 'em know that i didnt start this thread)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: gingyguy on July 05, 2018, 07:56:14 AM
nuu where is @Pointsallday  already ?life is getting boring without him!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: elimmm on July 05, 2018, 08:00:02 AM
nuu where is @Pointsallday  already ?life is getting boring without him!

maybe he got his info already-  any winners of $1k award?  share the wealth! (or at least show us the screenshot)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: gingyguy on July 05, 2018, 08:01:22 AM
just to "clear my name"

I didnt start this thread, @Dan can verify by IP, I am not even in the USA now. I posted a $200 award for this info a week or 2 ago, after someone requested it "urgently" by email. I was promised $200 if I find the info. Since I didnt find it myself, I posted the request on a random thread. (I even PMed Dan, but didnt merit a response :) ) No one threatened me, rather someone sent an email begging for the info to help w taxes for his friend. I PMed back and forth w a few fellow DDFers and everyone was only trying to help.
I dont know why or when the negativity started, but i gave up looking for the requested info a while ago. Apparently this fellow (the OP?) is desperate for the info and upset that people arent responding as he expected. Maybe he feels that people r bargaining w him while he is in a situation w IRS. Either way, I dont know the accountant nor his clients. I was only reposting an urgent request that i got by email.
I wish everyone happy hunting (if the t&c wasnt found yet.) And hope people are more respectful, even when they are desperate for help.
                    Wishing y'all good luck, 
(thanks @yelped for letting 'em know that i didnt start this thread)
you only merit a response if you threaten him
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 05, 2018, 08:27:47 AM
just to "clear my name"

I didnt start this thread, @Dan can verify by IP, I am not even in the USA now. I posted a $200 award for this info a week or 2 ago, after someone requested it "urgently" by email. I was promised $200 if I find the info. Since I didnt find it myself, I posted the request on a random thread. (I even PMed Dan, but didnt merit a response :) ) No one threatened me, rather someone sent an email begging for the info to help w taxes for his friend. I PMed back and forth w a few fellow DDFers and everyone was only trying to help.
I dont know why or when the negativity started, but i gave up looking for the requested info a while ago. Apparently this fellow (the OP?) is desperate for the info and upset that people arent responding as he expected. Maybe he feels that people r bargaining w him while he is in a situation w IRS. Either way, I dont know the accountant nor his clients. I was only reposting an urgent request that i got by email.
I wish everyone happy hunting (if the t&c wasnt found yet.) And hope people are more respectful, even when they are desperate for help.
                    Wishing y'all good luck, 
(thanks @yelped for letting 'em know that i didnt start this thread)
People on DDF are more than happy to help someone in need. But to curse someone who is trying to help simply  because you don't like the answer is not a course of action that will engender future assistance.

FWIW, if OP (or his client, or whoever) is having difficulty with the IRS, I hope he  finds the answer for which he's looking.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: jj1000 on July 05, 2018, 08:42:08 AM
I don't share this stuff normally, but he did threaten to post it, so I may as well post it first.
Have fun trying to help this guy with helpful advice as I did...

Speechless.

As @henche will likely tell you, OP needs a tax lawyer, not an accountant anymore.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: elimmm on July 05, 2018, 08:47:30 AM
you only merit a response if you threaten him

dont give away dan's secret...  now that we all know how to grab his attention we will have to up the ante to get him to respond in the future
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Pointsallday on July 05, 2018, 08:47:47 AM
Iím
Sorry if anyone felt threatened that was not my intention I feel the focus is in the writing my area Iím
Sorry if spelling on my phone typing while I was driving wasnít up to par with expectations
The focus shouldnít be on why or what but rather how we can help this person
Yes he was. Big biz he sold millions of points every year to one of the big Jewish point companies that is why irs is giving him issues on that income
Again when they decide to audit and they are out to get you they can make u crazy about bunch of small issues and than use it to paint bigger picture the other issues we are resolving and are way easier this si someh Big I have no access to this paper and is not my industry at all but like I said above it says theses words in every country that they age no cash value and even in USA it says under every offer that value depends on use so until I find full rewards terms from 2014 or before not one random page and not someone saying they hve full terms and trying to force us to pay 5k which is taking advantage ppl should give for free but to motivate ppl we are offering nice money again the full terms that came with Plat card is not the full reward terms that can only be found online or because waynack machine whenever clicking on full reward terms do USA either is missing or redirect 20 times till page stops or redirects to anytime past oct 2015 therefore I hve asked this fourum if ppl that are very into credit card offers for someone that might have an actual offer that came in mail in around 2014 that would have saved the second  and third page of the offer that would say the value of the points I Remember myself seeing it when my client asked me about reporting the points etc I looked up terms than and it said points have no cash value I therefore told him than there sound be no issues now my client is blming me saying u said so and I canít back up what I found than with anything online or any saved papers as my client never sav d any offers that came into mail as he wasnít really a card offer guy just got lots of points from biz spending I hope this is clear enough letís keep it civil u guys are all great ppl Iím sorry for any hostility but please if u can help by all means do and if u canít than please donít convince other ppl not too not sure what the point of that is
Thank you and good day u can direct private messages at harveykaplan99@gmail.com I will not be responding to this fourum anymore as Iím legit trying to help someone out and some ppl wanna sit down with box of popcorn and enjoy the show to the person involved itís audits are very scary and a serious thing and he feels the pressure and I take his pressure seriously and was persanoly told by irs that if we bring this terms showing no cash value USA it will wipe off this area all those great arguments ppl have was already given over just  didnít do the job even though I wish it would have
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ben89 on July 05, 2018, 09:23:49 AM
Iím
Sorry if anyone felt threatened that was not my intention I feel the focus is in the writing my area Iím
Sorry if spelling on my phone typing while I was driving wasnít up to par with expectations
The focus shouldnít be on why or what but rather how we can help this person
Yes he was. Big biz he sold millions of points every year to one of the big Jewish point companies that is why irs is giving him issues on that income
Again when they decide to audit and they are out to get you they can make u crazy about bunch of small issues and than use it to paint bigger picture the other issues we are resolving and are way easier this si someh Big I have no access to this paper and is not my industry at all but like I said above it says theses words in every country that they age no cash value and even in USA it says under every offer that value depends on use so until I find full rewards terms from 2014 or before not one random page and not someone saying they hve full terms and trying to force us to pay 5k which is taking advantage ppl should give for free but to motivate ppl we are offering nice money again the full terms that came with Plat card is not the full reward terms that can only be found online or because waynack machine whenever clicking on full reward terms do USA either is missing or redirect 20 times till page stops or redirects to anytime past oct 2015 therefore I hve asked this fourum if ppl that are very into credit card offers for someone that might have an actual offer that came in mail in around 2014 that would have saved the second  and third page of the offer that would say the value of the points I Remember myself seeing it when my client asked me about reporting the points etc I looked up terms than and it said points have no cash value I therefore told him than there sound be no issues now my client is blming me saying u said so and I canít back up what I found than with anything online or any saved papers as my client never sav d any offers that came into mail as he wasnít really a card offer guy just got lots of points from biz spending I hope this is clear enough letís keep it civil u guys are all great ppl Iím sorry for any hostility but please if u can help by all means do and if u canít than please donít convince other ppl not too not sure what the point of that is
Thank you and good day u can direct private messages at harveykaplan99@gmail.com I will not be responding to this fourum anymore as Iím legit trying to help someone out and some ppl wanna sit down with box of popcorn and enjoy the show to the person involved itís audits are very scary and a serious thing and he feels the pressure and I take his pressure seriously and was persanoly told by irs that if we bring this terms showing no cash value USA it will wipe off this area all those great arguments ppl have was already given over just  didnít do the job even though I wish it would have
this you also wrote when you were driving?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Moshe123 on July 05, 2018, 09:33:52 AM
My eyes hurt.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2018, 09:39:39 AM
That was one long sentence.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 09:41:52 AM
Iím
Sorry if anyone felt threatened that was not my intention I feel the focus is in the writing my area Iím
Sorry if spelling on my phone typing while I was driving wasnít up to par with expectations
The focus shouldnít be on why or what but rather how we can help this person
Yes he was. Big biz he sold millions of points every year to one of the big Jewish point companies that is why irs is giving him issues on that income
Again when they decide to audit and they are out to get you they can make u crazy about bunch of small issues and than use it to paint bigger picture the other issues we are resolving and are way easier this si someh Big I have no access to this paper and is not my industry at all but like I said above it says theses words in every country that they age no cash value and even in USA it says under every offer that value depends on use so until I find full rewards terms from 2014 or before not one random page and not someone saying they hve full terms and trying to force us to pay 5k which is taking advantage ppl should give for free but to motivate ppl we are offering nice money again the full terms that came with Plat card is not the full reward terms that can only be found online or because waynack machine whenever clicking on full reward terms do USA either is missing or redirect 20 times till page stops or redirects to anytime past oct 2015 therefore I hve asked this fourum if ppl that are very into credit card offers for someone that might have an actual offer that came in mail in around 2014 that would have saved the second  and third page of the offer that would say the value of the points I Remember myself seeing it when my client asked me about reporting the points etc I looked up terms than and it said points have no cash value I therefore told him than there sound be no issues now my client is blming me saying u said so and I canít back up what I found than with anything online or any saved papers as my client never sav d any offers that came into mail as he wasnít really a card offer guy just got lots of points from biz spending I hope this is clear enough letís keep it civil u guys are all great ppl Iím sorry for any hostility but please if u can help by all means do and if u canít than please donít convince other ppl not too not sure what the point of that is
Thank you and good day u can direct private messages at harveykaplan99@gmail.com I will not be responding to this fourum anymore as Iím legit trying to help someone out and some ppl wanna sit down with box of popcorn and enjoy the show to the person involved itís audits are very scary and a serious thing and he feels the pressure and I take his pressure seriously and was persanoly told by irs that if we bring this terms showing no cash value USA it will wipe off this area all those great arguments ppl have was already given over just  didnít do the job even though I wish it would have
I have the T&C's from 12/2013. No where does it say anything about the value of the points one way or the other. If it did I would gladly give them to you to help. Anyone here that has dealt with me knows the 5k was a joke. I would not charge you a single dime, that is just who I am.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: 12HRS on July 05, 2018, 09:42:08 AM
That was one long sentence.

I wouldn't know. I stopped halfway through.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: 12HRS on July 05, 2018, 09:43:08 AM
I have the T&C's from 12/2013. No where does it say anything about the value of the points one way or the other. If it did I would gladly give them to you to help. Anyone here that has dealt with me knows the 5k was a joke. I would not charge you a single dime, that is just who I am.

Now I am pissed I never did your 30k NDA  >:(
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: TimT on July 05, 2018, 09:45:48 AM
Hasnít it been established that selling points for cash isnít considered a ďrebateĒ anymore ?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 09:46:45 AM
As @henche will likely tell you, OP needs a tax lawyer, not an accountant anymore.
...and the tax lawyer will tell him something he will not like.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 09:48:00 AM
Hasnít it been established that selling points for cash isnít considered a ďrebateĒ anymore ?
Non MSed points? Hasn't been established here.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 09:50:18 AM
Non MSed points? Hasn't been established here.
There is no difference.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2018, 09:52:36 AM
Let's just say that I am happy this is not my accountant.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 09:53:07 AM


There is no difference.



The case may be different when you are MSing, as it is what I believe is called an extension of wealth, that when you walk out with more money then you came in with you have income.

Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 09:55:56 AM
Let's just say that I am happy this is not my accountant.
If he truly is an accountant I pray he gets competent legal advice for his client especially like I asked in the first post if this is coming from CID. Not a joking matter!!!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2018, 09:57:35 AM
If he truly is an account I pray he gets competent legal advice for his client especially like I asked in the first post if this is coming from CID. Not a joking matter!!!
That is what I meant. He is not doing a good job for his client going around cursing those he feels can help him.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 05, 2018, 09:59:02 AM
SAD!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: TimT on July 05, 2018, 10:02:07 AM
You need a far better plan than showing some t&c that doesnít mention anything about selling points.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 10:05:25 AM
You need a far better plan than showing some t&c that doesnít mention anything about selling points.
His logic is flawed.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 05, 2018, 10:09:42 AM
OP almost for sure saw the language on the Dollar/Euro card page, I've never seen it anywhere else and I looked through dozens of terms in print and on the internet archive before I read the message about his raving insanity about curses and stopped looking.

Either way, those terms won't help you one iota in this case now that you finally expalined it. Any good accountant knows that if you monetize something worthless, it's still a taxable event.

The only valid argument is that it's just cashing out the purchase rebate in the same way that banks allow purchase rebate points to be transferred to airlines or to cash back. It isn't income but a purchase rebate. Therefore they have no 1099.

Best of luck, but I am certainly not moichel you for that message. You seem to think everyone is hiding something from you or trying to squeeze more money out of you, that's a sad way to go through life.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 10:13:56 AM
Either way, those terms won't help you one iota in this case now that you finally expalined it. Any good accountant knows that if you monetize something worthless, it's still a taxable event.
They will make the situation worse. If the terms say the rebate is worth 1cpp you can argue the difference you sold them for.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: jj1000 on July 05, 2018, 10:16:50 AM
OP almost for sure saw the language on the Dollar/Euro card page, I've never seen it anywhere else and I looked through dozens of terms in print and on the internet archive before I read the message about his raving insanity about curses and stopped looking.

Either way, those terms won't help you one iota in this case now that you finally expalined it. Any good accountant knows that if you monetize something worthless, it's still a taxable event.

The only valid argument is that it's just cashing out the purchase rebate in the same way that banks allow purchase rebate points to be transferred to airlines or to cash back. It isn't income but a purchase rebate. Therefore they have no 1099.

Best of luck, but I am certainly not moichel you for that message. You seem to think everyone is hiding something from you or trying to squeeze more money out of you, that's a sad way to go through life.
I can personally attest to seeing Dan digging up and then going through old CC terms for over an hour as well as more time searching the internet yesterday, and that's just what I was there for.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 05, 2018, 10:19:01 AM
They will make the situation worse. If the terms say the rebate is worth 1cpp you can argue the difference you sold them for.
If the terms say the points have no value and you sold them for 1.5, than the income would be 1.5 I suppose if you're ignoring the purchase rebate argument.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 10:20:04 AM
I can personally attest to seeing Dan digging up and then going through old CC terms for over an hour as well as more time searching the internet yesterday, and that's just what I was there for.
Wow that's amazing. I thought this guy was just being an ungrateful b**** assuming Dan spent just a minute. But that is really amazing. Both in a good way what Dan has done, and the other way with OPs statements.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 10:22:36 AM
If the terms say the points have no value and you sold them for 1.5, than the income would be 1.5 I suppose if you're ignoring the purchase rebate argument.
Sorry I wasn't clear. If the term say they are worth 1cpp. The 1cpp would be the rebate you are entitled to. Sell them for 1.5cpp and you can argue the gain is now .5cpp and not 1.5cpp.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 10:27:42 AM
I think we should all cut the guy some slack (including me). No matter how he came of sounding this is serious. This should also serve as a PSA!!!
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 10:30:40 AM
I think we should all cut the guy some slack (including me). No matter how he came of sounding this is serious. This should also serve as a PSA!!!
I think he's gone.
After talking to a few CPAs and a tax attorney I'm still not really sure the exact laws, and neither do they seem to sure.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: henche on July 05, 2018, 10:33:57 AM
Speechless.

As @henche will likely tell you, OP needs a tax lawyer, not an accountant anymore.

too many posts.  add the good ones to wiki
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2018, 10:51:05 AM
Sorry I wasn't clear. If the term say they are worth 1cpp. The 1cpp would be the rebate you are entitled to. Sell them for 1.5cpp and you can argue the gain is now .5cpp and not 1.5cpp.
This. The right way to go would be to find how high they write on 1099s not how low it can be.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 05, 2018, 10:53:12 AM
In the 2014 terms AMEX sells points for 2.5 cents each...
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ExGingi on July 05, 2018, 11:00:23 AM
That was one long PART OF A sentence.
FTFY

There's no full stop at the end of the post. Sentence isn't over. Still driving?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 05, 2018, 11:08:01 AM
Hasnít it been established that selling points for cash isnít considered a ďrebateĒ anymore ?
Yes. Doesn't matter what T&C say.

Unfortunately for client, the prior advice he received was incorrect.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 11:10:06 AM
Yes. Doesn't matter what T&C say.
If anyone has full clarity on this, or some links that can help I'd appreciate the information.
At the moment I am more confused about this then a crack addict.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 11:12:13 AM
If anyone has full clarity on this, or some links that can help I'd appreciate the information.
At the moment I am more confused about this then a crack addict.
Talk to any competent tax attorney. Better yet find someone involved in this situation.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 11:14:42 AM
Talk to any competent tax attorney. Better yet find someone involved in this situation.
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 05, 2018, 11:16:45 AM
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Churning is relatively simple to explain, so is MSing, any attorney worth his salt should be able to understand the basics, my $.02.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 05, 2018, 11:18:55 AM
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Has nothing to do with churning.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 11:19:25 AM
Talked to a tax attorney in a case right now. He just doesn't understand churning so I got little clarity.
Ouch! Run as fast as you can from that guy.
When I had my issue it took the attorney all of thirty minutes to understand MS and the first consultation was free. :)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 11:26:40 AM


Ouch! Run as fast as you can from that guy.
When I had my issue it took the attorney all of thirty minutes to understand MS and the first consultation was free. :)



Has nothing to do with churning.



Churning is relatively simple to explain, so is MSing, any attorney worth his salt should be able to understand the basics, my $.02.

Trying to understand if there should be a difference between general spend (more logical to be a purchase rebate) and MS. And if there is a difference between CB vs. Points for use vs. Points sold, is a little hard to comprehend without much knowledge.
Aside from that fact that all he can tell me is his feel, since the case is pending in court.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 05, 2018, 11:28:52 AM





Trying to understand if there should be a difference between general spend (more logical to be a purchase rebate) and MS. And if there is a difference between CB vs. Points for use vs. Points sold, is a little hard to comprehend without much knowledge.
No it's not, he may not be able to tell you what the actual law is but he should definitely be able to understand it.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 05, 2018, 11:30:33 AM
In broad strokes:

-Yes, difference between generic spend and manufactured spend.
--Yes, difference between points and cash back.
--Yes, difference between personal use and selling.

This is not legal advice. Consult your own professional.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: henche on July 05, 2018, 11:31:05 AM





Trying to understand if there should be a difference between general spend (more logical to be a purchase rebate) and MS. And if there is a difference between CB vs. Points for use vs. Points sold, is a little hard to comprehend without much knowledge.
Aside from that fact that all he can tell me is his feel, since the case is pending in court.

There's a case pending in tax court?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 05, 2018, 11:34:20 AM
@henche, what's your opinion?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 11:43:44 AM
There is a big difference between the position the IRS is taking and what we (tax attorneys) think they should.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 05, 2018, 11:48:29 AM
There is a big difference between the position the IRS is taking and what we (tax attorneys) think they should.
The IRS can take any position they want, doesn't mean they'll win.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 11:50:48 AM
The IRS can take any position they want, doesn't mean they'll win.
What it means is BIG buck attorney fees.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 11:58:42 AM
In broad strokes:

-Yes, difference between generic spend and manufactured spend.
--Yes, difference between points and cash back.
--Yes, difference between personal use and selling.

This is not legal advice. Consult your own professional.
That was my understanding. And what I took out is I who earns miles from generic spend and MS for personal use, not for resale would not have to file for that. But cashback from MS I would and from generic spend I won't. Please CMIIW.
There's a case pending in tax court?
So he says
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 12:05:45 PM
That was my understanding. And what I took out is I who earns miles from generic spend and MS for personal use, not for resale would not have to file for that. But cashback from MS I would and from generic spend I won't.
Basically no difference between CB, miles and points to the IRS. The problem with some types of MS for personal use is at some point the IRS will claim it is a business.


Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Moshe123 on July 05, 2018, 01:49:41 PM
Did the IRS start posting on DDF?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 05, 2018, 01:53:01 PM
Did the IRS start posting on DDF?
@IRS
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: henche on July 05, 2018, 02:30:20 PM
Here are some sevaras I'm thinking, although again, haven't really looked into this and many here have probably thought about it more than me.

1. CB, points on generic spend, seem akin to a rebate, which means you just paid less for the potatoes you were buying. Hard to see that as taxable.

2. Same with FF miles you get for flying. You just paid less for your flight.

3. IRS Announcement 2002-18 was about business travel. Your employer pays for your flight, and you get miles. If was like scenario 2, the employer would get the miles. So this is more like your employer giving you additional compensation in miles, but IRS was mochel it.

4. Points or miles you get from deposit bank accounts, seem most like interest income. Hard to see it as anything different.

5. MS from buying groups.  If you treat it as having paid less for potatoes, like under scenario 1, then your basis in the potatoes is less, and  you had a profit when you onsold it to the buying club guy.  So seems like either business income or short term gains (with various nafka minas).

6. MS from GCs. This is the weirdest one, because it seems irrational to say that your basis in a $500 GC is only $492. However, I can get past that weirdness, especially considering that you can trade GS below face value all over ebay.  So hagah atzmecha: If I buy a Target GC for $475, and then buy $500 worth of potatoes at Target, do I have income or gains of $25? That seems like an insane position to take.  But that's where the usual theories would seem to take us.  If you have a business, I would think very hard to argue that the money you are making wasn't made. But seems nuts that you have income everytime you buy a GC below face value and then use it.  At some point it may just come down to the optics.

These are just some boich sevaras--no idea how IRS thinks of this or what law is.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2018, 02:49:30 PM
Here are some sevaras I'm thinking, although again, haven't really looked into this and many here have probably thought about it more than me.

1. CB, points on generic spend, seem akin to a rebate, which means you just paid less for the potatoes you were buying. Hard to see that as taxable.

2. Same with FF miles you get for flying. You just paid less for your flight.

3. IRS Announcement 2002-18 was about business travel. Your employer pays for your flight, and you get miles. If was like scenario 2, the employer would get the miles. So this is more like your employer giving you additional compensation in miles, but IRS was mochel it.

4. Points or miles you get from deposit bank accounts, seem most like interest income. Hard to see it as anything different.

5. MS from buying groups.  If you treat it as having paid less for potatoes, like under scenario 1, then your basis in the potatoes is less, and  you had a profit when you onsold it to the buying club guy.  So seems like either business income or short term gains (with various nafka minas).

6. MS from GCs. This is the weirdest one, because it seems irrational to say that your basis in a $500 GC is only $492. However, I can get past that weirdness, especially considering that you can trade GS below face value all over ebay.  So hagah atzmecha: If I buy a Target GC for $475, and then buy $500 worth of potatoes at Target, do I have income or gains of $25? That seems like an insane position to take.  But that's where the usual theories would seem to take us.  If you have a business, I would think very hard to argue that the money you are making wasn't made. But seems nuts that you have income everytime you buy a GC below face value and then use it.  At some point it may just come down to the optics.

These are just some boich sevaras--no idea how IRS thinks of this or what law is.
I could see number five just passing the lower basis to the end product and being a cheaper price for potatoes. The question would then become how to look at cash out strategies.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 02:56:42 PM
These are just some boich sevaras--no idea how IRS thinks of this or what law is.
Once you get past a certain threshold (arbitrary) they look at it as you are running a business (MS/GC's). Your net/gross gains are taxable.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: aygart on July 05, 2018, 03:06:59 PM
Once you get past a certain threshold (arbitrary) they look at it as you are running a business (MS/GC's). Your net/gross gains are taxable.
How about the extreme couponers who are busy sending in rebates on everything they buy?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 05, 2018, 03:09:33 PM
How about the extreme couponers who are busy sending in rebates on everything they buy?
Can only comment on what I know about. This isn't JS. :)
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: henche on July 05, 2018, 03:34:57 PM
How about the extreme couponers who are busy sending in rebates on everything they buy?

That's all stuff you're buying to use.  You don't run a business by buying yourself stuff.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: henche on July 05, 2018, 03:36:25 PM
I could see number five just passing the lower basis to the end product and being a cheaper price for potatoes. The question would then become how to look at cash out strategies.

You mean number 6?

The issue is that a realization event is when you change what you have, not when you end up again with cash. If you  buy potatoes, and trade for corn, that's a realization event. 
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: AJK on July 05, 2018, 04:04:50 PM
At some point it may just come down to the optics.

This.

There is some hazy, vague, non-completely discernible line before which everyone goes home as friends.

Cross said line, and it's weekend at the step-parents as a red-head.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: dealsrus on July 06, 2018, 02:15:37 PM
Anyone know about chase bonus points received from referrals (chase ink) if taxable, Does chase send 1099
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2018, 02:38:47 PM
Anyone know about chase bonus points received from referrals (chase ink) if taxable, Does chase send 1099
Excellent question.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: chinagel on July 06, 2018, 02:57:33 PM
dont they purposely keep it under 60k/600 for tax reasons?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2018, 03:04:16 PM
dont they purposely keep it under 60k/600 for tax reasons?
Yup.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2018, 03:11:56 PM
dont they purposely keep it under 60k/600 for tax reasons?
1099 has nothing to do if it is taxable, correct?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: gingyguy on July 06, 2018, 03:14:01 PM
ive earned around 60k points through referrals and never received a 1099 for them
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2018, 03:16:24 PM
ive earned around 60k points through referrals and never received a 1099 for them
1099 has nothing to do if it is taxable, correct?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: TimT on July 06, 2018, 03:24:32 PM
Iíve gotten 1099íd for a $200 bonus on my account.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 06, 2018, 03:26:39 PM
Iíve gotten 1099íd for a $200 bonus on my account.
Bank account? That's a different story
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 06, 2018, 03:39:48 PM
1099 has nothing to do if it is taxable, correct?
Right, they just have to send it if it's over a certain amount.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: dealsrus on July 06, 2018, 03:46:24 PM
Yup.
Chase ink Says 20k per referral up to 100k per year. .
did 3 referrals So far received 20k
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2018, 03:46:51 PM
1099 has nothing to do if it is taxable, correct?
Nor does a store collecting sales tax or not.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: gingyguy on July 06, 2018, 03:52:01 PM
Iíve gotten 1099íd for a $200 bonus on my account.
you get that for any size cash bonus , they count it as unearned income same as interest on your account
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 06, 2018, 03:56:33 PM
dont they purposely keep it under 60k/600 for tax reasons?
The Ink Preferred is up to 100k
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: chinagel on July 06, 2018, 04:02:19 PM
The Ink Preferred is up to 100k
idk, could be business is different
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 06, 2018, 04:05:16 PM
Chase ink Says 20k per referral up to 100k per year. .
did 3 referrals So far received 20k
Chase biz referrals (or at least Ink's) haven't been posting as they're supposed to lately.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: S123 on July 06, 2018, 04:06:33 PM
Chase biz referrals (or at least Ink's) haven't been posting as they're supposed to lately.
have to call in?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: dealsrus on July 06, 2018, 04:21:09 PM
Chase biz referrals (or at least Ink's) haven't been posting as they're supposed to lately.
If would get 1099  not worth to call
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 06, 2018, 04:50:53 PM
Bank account? That's a different story
But only greedy banks would send out a 1099 for $200
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 06, 2018, 04:51:46 PM
But only greedy banks would send out a 1099 for $200
IINM the majority of banks do
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: shapsam on July 06, 2018, 04:59:38 PM
IINM the majority of banks do
Out of the 3 or 4 banks that I've gotten bonuses, M&T bank is the only one that ever sent me a 1099 for it.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: davidrotts63 on July 06, 2018, 05:00:41 PM
Out of the 3 or 4 banks that I've gotten bonuses, M&T bank is the only one that ever sent me a 1099 for it.
I got from them as well as Santander, WF, IINM chase does too. I got another as well which I can't recall from who it was.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2018, 05:12:30 PM
Nor does a store collecting sales tax or not.
Not reporting taxable income is a different story.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: mmgfarb on July 06, 2018, 05:45:52 PM
have to call in?
You can but I'm not sure if it'll help or not.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2018, 05:47:37 PM
Not reporting taxable income is a different story.
Why is it different?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2018, 06:12:07 PM
Why is it different?
Maybe I am not understanding what you are saying/asking.
AFAIK it is the stores responsibility to charge me tax. If I don't get a 1099 for a referral it is my responsibility to report it (if it is taxable).
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 06, 2018, 06:14:50 PM
If a store doesn't charge sales tax it's your responsibility to report it on your tax return under use tax.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 06, 2018, 06:20:09 PM
If a store doesn't charge sales tax it's your responsibility to report it on your tax return under use tax.
IIRC it is only on internet and out of state purchases. In state purchases are the businesses responsibility. Will check my state return.

ETA: From state form under other taxes. "Use tax on internet, mail order, or other out-of-state purchases from UT Worksheet or UT Table in the instructions."
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: meshugener on July 10, 2018, 02:09:19 PM
Even if it does have cash value the IRS considers it a rebate. If they're insisting that it"s taxable, it's probably a mistake and you should go to court, I'm not a lawyer but the IRS famously said in 2002 that points are considered a rebate.
But a rebate would reduce your expenses - which increases your tax liability.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: meshugener on July 10, 2018, 02:45:44 PM
Why is it different?
You go to jail for not reporting income.

You may pay fine+interest for failing to pay sales tax. Also, no state is enforcing it on the consumer end.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: Dan on July 10, 2018, 02:51:43 PM
You go to jail for not reporting income.

You may pay fine+interest for failing to pay sales tax. Also, no state is enforcing it on the consumer end.
What's the last time someone went to jail for failing to report less than $600 of (questionable) income?
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: meshugener on July 10, 2018, 03:00:50 PM
What's the last time someone went to jail for failing to report less than $600 of (questionable) income?
Don't know.
But that's not my point.

Irrelevant to amount, failing to report is a crime.
A customer not paying, or a merchant not collecting sales tax is not.

It would be a crime only if a merchant were to collect sales tax but fail to remit it to the state.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ExGingi on July 10, 2018, 07:56:55 PM
idk, could be business is different
There is no requirement to issue a 1099 if payment was made to a corporation.

https://www.irs.gov/pub/irs-pdf/i1099msc.pdf
Quote
Exceptions. Some payments do not have to be reported on Form 1099-MISC, although they may be taxable to the recipient. Payments for which a Form 1099-MISC is not required include all of the following.
  • Generally, payments to a corporation (including a limited liability company (LLC) that is treated as a C or S corporation).
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on July 10, 2018, 08:02:46 PM
What's the last time someone went to jail for failing to report less than $600 of (questionable) income?
Why does it have to be 600? You can receive tens of thousands in referral bonuses and never get a 1099.
Title: Re: Amex 2014 Terms and Conditions
Post by: meshugener on July 10, 2018, 11:33:14 PM
Why does it have to be 600? You can receive tens of thousands in referral bonuses and never get a 1099.
You only need to send a 1099 MISC if you paid someone $600 or more.