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DansDeals Forum => Just Shmooze => Topic started by: ExGingi on October 18, 2018, 08:55:44 PM

Title: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on October 18, 2018, 08:55:44 PM
Starting this thread in the middle of this fiasco, with the latest results out of the Saudi transparent investigation.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/saudi-who-arrived-in-turkey-day-of-khashoggi-disappearance-dies-in-traffic-accident/amp/

@ChaimMoskowitz how do we set up the betting on the number of people that will die for this, and how many methods will be used?
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 12:02:04 AM
Starting this thread in the middle of this fiasco, with the latest results out of the Saudi transparent investigation.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/saudi-who-arrived-in-turkey-day-of-khashoggi-disappearance-dies-in-traffic-accident/amp/

@ChaimMoskowitz how do we set up the betting on the number of people that will die for this, and how many methods will be used?
For individuals the O/U is 2.5
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: User6669 on October 19, 2018, 04:09:53 AM
If he would've had a gun, he might have been able to save himself...
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: shwarmabob on October 19, 2018, 09:44:04 AM
https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/why-the-saudis-despised-jamal-khashoggi/
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Yard sale on October 19, 2018, 10:21:28 AM
The real story here is that most of those expressing indignation at his murder are really thrilled that the guy is dead, just upset that MBS was stupid enough to get caught red handed. The guy was aligned with the Muslim brotherhood and Qatar, and by extension Iran, and Iran’s proxies in the Middle East , so he was an advocate for, and indirectly aided and abetted the murder of innocent people in Israel and around the world.. The only ones unhappy are the liberal press and pols, and former Obama admin officials who were aligned with Iran. Good riddance. Just a stupid way to go about doing it.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 10:24:07 AM
The real story here is that most of those expressing indignation at his murder are really thrilled that the guy is dead, just upset that MBS was stupid enough to get caught red handed. The guy was aligned with the Muslim brotherhood and Qatar, and by extension Iran, and Iran’s proxies in the Middle East , so he was an advocate for, and indirectly aided and abetted the murder of innocent people in Israel and around the world.. The only ones unhappy are the liberal press and pols, and former Obama admin officials who were aligned with Iran. Good riddance. Just a stupid way to go about doing it.
We should start a new thread. Scumbag Friday PC posts!!!
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: gingyguy on October 19, 2018, 10:44:53 AM
We should start a new thread. Scumbag Friday PC posts!!!
too similiar to this
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=96011.msg1994196#msg1994196
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Yard sale on October 19, 2018, 11:21:21 AM
We should start a new thread. Scumbag Friday PC posts!!!

Ok have it your way. He was a great guy whom everyone from every political faction worldwide will sorely miss, who was senselessly murdered by a despot on an ego trip. The world really is a nice place where everyone plays fair. I like that. Naïveté is good. Keeps things simple.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ExGingi on October 19, 2018, 11:28:08 AM
Khashoggi wasn't a great guy. He is far from a saint.

That doesn't justify kidnapping, torturing, and killing (and subsequently killing participants).

Many of Putin's adversaries are far from saints, and Putin is probably one of the best things that happened to Russia (and by extension to global and regional stability) in many years. That doesn't mean that all the methods he employs are right, and doesn't justify them.

That being said, hypocrisy runs wide. Erdoğan is far from a saint, and doesn't treat dissidents that much better, nor is he an advocate of democracy or free press. Same can be said from many regimes around the world.

The problem in this case that doesn't allow the world to remain silent, is the way it was done, and the location where it was done.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Dan on October 19, 2018, 11:32:55 AM
The whole thing is sick. You don't deserve to die based on your political leanings.
But I just don't get how Saudi Arabia could be so stupid. Why didn't they just arrange for a car accident or something not traceable directly back to them?
Boggles the mind really.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 11:36:51 AM
Ok have it your way. He was a great guy whom everyone from every political faction worldwide will sorely miss, who was senselessly murdered by a despot on an ego trip. The world really is a nice place where everyone plays fair. I like that. Naïveté is good. Keeps things simple.
My way would not to put the political slant on this. OK you hate the liberals and BO, fine. We have the political thread for that rant.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 11:38:09 AM
The whole thing is sick. You don't deserve to die based on your political leanings.
But I just don't get how Saudi Arabia could be so stupid. Why didn't they just arrange for a car accident or something not traceable directly back to them?
Boggles the mind really.
Makes me think something did go wrong.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: nobiggy on October 19, 2018, 11:40:04 AM
Makes me think something did go wrong.
Even if something did go wrong they first claimed he left the consulate. Come on.....no class. Who did they think they're fooling?
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 11:42:02 AM
Even if something did go wrong they first claimed he left the consulate. Come on.....no class. Who did they think they're fooling?
Everyone thinks the lie will be better.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Yard sale on October 19, 2018, 11:44:06 AM
It is sick, especially the torture part. But the fact remains that the world is better of without him, and many of the worlds politicians are shedding crocodile tears. The world is a sick place, and this is the modus aperandi in much of the world today; the saudis were stupid and got caught. Putin does it. China does it Iran does it. Dozens of other countries do it. And yes, Israel does it (ostensibly not for political views, only for terrorist activities, but the lines get really blurred sometimes). So the only reason that this blew up into such a huge international incident with worldwide outrage and indignation, is not the fact that someone was assasinated because of his political views, but rather the optics of how it was carried out.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Dan on October 19, 2018, 11:44:41 AM
Makes me think something did go wrong.
Don't need a 15 person team and a bone cutter to kidnap someone.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Yard sale on October 19, 2018, 11:48:24 AM
My way would not to put the political slant on this. OK you hate the liberals and BO, fine. We have the political thread for that rant.

I have my issues with the right wingers too. Both sides of the political spectrum are corrupt and dishonest. That’s for the political thread. I’m just noting that the reaction to  his murder does play out differently according to where one leans on the political spectrum.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 11:54:25 AM
I’m just noting that the reaction to  his murder does play out differently according to where one leans on the political spectrum.
Not everyone brings politics into every thought they have.

I do get your point.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/conservatives-mount-a-whisper-campaign-smearing-khashoggi-in-defense-of-trump/ar-BBOA6kY?ocid=spartanntp
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Sammy82 on October 19, 2018, 12:08:57 PM
Not everyone brings politics into every thought they have.

I do get your point.
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/politics/conservatives-mount-a-whisper-campaign-smearing-khashoggi-in-defense-of-trump/ar-BBOA6kY?ocid=spartanntp
Some people bring politics into every thought while others bring race into every thought.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 19, 2018, 12:10:34 PM
Some people bring politics into every thought while others bring race into every thought.
...and some do both or neither. The trick is to know the difference.  ;)
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: chevron on October 19, 2018, 04:13:23 PM
A lot of good stuff written here and echo my sentiments. In Islamic regimes and at times elsewhere, full democracy breeds terror.

Remember the arab spring eh? or the syrian revolution, they create vacuums for terror.

Saudi's would do well to ease up on things like women's rights, but terror is all that keeps egypt and Saudi Arabia in check
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: YossieW on October 19, 2018, 08:21:48 PM
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ExGingi on October 20, 2018, 08:55:56 PM
https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/saudi-who-arrived-in-turkey-day-of-khashoggi-disappearance-dies-in-traffic-accident/
Repost

Check OP of this thread.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: zh cohen on October 20, 2018, 10:22:05 PM
This whole thing is another reason why trust in the media is at an all time low. If they would have been honest from the beginning and said
You don't deserve to die based on your political leanings.
99% of people would agree.

Instead they made him into a "democracy and human rights advocate" while ignoring stuff like this;
and the attached
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Jellybelly on October 20, 2018, 10:24:51 PM
 @thedailybeast: Joaquin Castro accuses Jared Kushner of orchestrating the Khashoggi killing https://t.co/ZiNn8pdiCx

m.twitter.com
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 20, 2018, 10:35:13 PM
This whole thing is another reason why trust in the media is at an all time low.
The media had this one pegged right the whole time.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Dan on October 20, 2018, 10:37:26 PM
This whole thing is another reason why trust in the media is at an all time low. If they would have been honest from the beginning and said  99% of people would agree.

Instead they made him into a "democracy and human rights advocate" while ignoring stuff like this;
and the attached
I won't shed tears for the guy, but did he deserve to be murdered?
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: zh cohen on October 20, 2018, 10:48:21 PM
I won't shed tears for the guy, but did he deserve to be murdered?

No.

My comment was solely about the media dishonesty in covering this story.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 20, 2018, 10:56:10 PM
If you want to be honest here is a list of his latest articles.
https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/global-opinions/wp/2018/10/06/read-jamal-khashoggis-columns-for-the-washington-post/?utm_term=.5933a9926161
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: Toasted on October 20, 2018, 11:12:40 PM
https://www.vosizneias.com/307983/2018/10/20/jerusalem-why-are-some-pro-israel-voices-speaking-out-against-jamal-khashoggi/
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 12:20:03 AM
This whole thing is another reason why trust in the media is at an all time low. If they would have been honest from the beginning and said  99% of people would agree.

Instead they made him into a "democracy and human rights advocate" while ignoring stuff like this;


The media are upset about what happened to one of their own. Unsurprising. We see the same here all the time.
(BTW, can a mod please change the title to something comprehensible)
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 12:21:06 AM
We see the same here all the time.
x1K
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Dan on October 21, 2018, 12:25:07 AM
(BTW, can a mod please change the title to something comprehensible)
Better?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 12:27:22 AM
Better?
MUCH! Thanks!
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: greatluck on October 21, 2018, 12:43:05 AM
The same people who don't want mulLer should finish his investigation any time soon wanted the investigation of Jamal Khashoggi's Murder should be finished ASAP. FUNNY?
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 12:51:14 AM
I won't shed tears for the guy, but did he deserve to be murdered?

I don’t thing it’s so clear cut. While he certainly wasn’t a terrorist with actual blood on his hands, is that the dividing line? What about an influential personality who incites the Palestinians with claims that the Israelis stole their land, invented a historical connection to Palestine, and are perpetrating a 9/11 on the Palestinian people. Such vitriol is not harmless; it can easily do much of the work for Hamas, Hezbolla, etc. and lead to the murder of innocent people as has happened repeatedly in the past. Does someone get a free pass because he’s not the one actually wearing the explosives belt on the egged bus?

 Do I think that the mossaad should put every inciter on a hit list? Of course not. But if his expressed views were indeed inciting people to violence (and that is something that can be debated) I would have a hard time saying he absolutely didn’t deserve to die, though I have no sympathy for the Saudis and their barbaric methods...
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 12:54:58 AM
I don’t thing it’s so clear cut. While he certainly wasn’t a terrorist with actual blood on his hands, is that the dividing line? What about an influential personality who incites the Palestinians with claims that the Israelis stole their land, invented a historical connection to Palestine, and are perpetrating a 9/11 on the Palestinian people. Such vitriol is not harmless; it can easily do much of the work for Hamas, Hezbolla, etc. and lead to the murder of innocent people as has happened repeatedly in the past. Does someone get a free pass because he’s not the one actually wearing the explosives belt on the egged bus?

 Do I think that the mossaad should put every inciter on a hit list? Of course not. But if his expressed views were indeed inciting people to violence (and that is something that can be debated) I would have a hard time saying he absolutely didn’t deserve to die, though I have no sympathy for the Saudis and their barbaric methods...
Judge, jury and executioner?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 12:55:34 AM
Judge, jury and executioner?
AKA dictator?
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 01:00:29 AM
Judge, jury and executioner?

And those saying he absolutely didn’t deserve to die; is that an Acquittal by judge and jury? I’m not saying he definitely did; just that it’s not clear cut and unequivocal.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 01:01:54 AM
And those saying he absolutely didn’t deserve to die; is that an Acquittal by judge and jury?
I think somewhere I will invoke the laws of a democracy.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 01:02:52 AM
And those saying he absolutely didn’t deserve to die; is that an Acquittal by judge and jury? I’m not saying he definitely did; just that it’s not clear cut and unequivocal.
How about innocent until proven guilty?
Your standards ar ridiculous and frankly pretty sickening.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 01:16:16 AM
How about innocent until proven guilty?
Your standards ar ridiculous and frankly pretty sickening.

Innocent until proven guilty simply  states that by no means should anyone have pulled the trigger. However now that he is dead, innocent until guilty kind of goes the other way. it sounds like you would have no problem as judge and jury convicting his killers of the murder of an innocent man. Is that so clear cut or would you apply the innocent until proven guilty standard to them as well? I’m not saying innocent. I’m saying that perhaps there is reasonable doubt. ( I’m not talking about the method used, or the need to uphold international laws and norms. I’m talking about the morality of his having been killed to the degree that his incitement of others had the potential to cause the loss of innocent lives.)

In any case, since when has the standard of guilty beyond reasonable doubt ever been applied to nations eliminating what they claim are credible threats to their sovereignty or the security of their citizens? That is never the standard used. Not by Israel. Not by Russia. Not by any other sovereign nation in the hundreds of “elimination of threats” that take place each year. Would you hold the IDF to the standard of innocent until proven guilty when there is a hamas operative that appears to be planning a terrorist attack on civilians?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 01:30:08 AM
Innocent until proven guilty simply  states that by no means should anyone have pulled the trigger. However now that he is dead, innocent until guilty kind of goes the other way. it sounds like you would have no problem as judge and jury convicting his killers of the murder of an innocent man. Is that so clear cut or would you apply the innocent until proven guilty standard to them as well? I’m not saying innocent. I’m saying that perhaps there is reasonable doubt. ( I’m not talking about the method used, or the need to uphold international laws and norms. I’m talking about the morality of his having been killed to the degree that his incitement of others had the potential to cause the loss of innocent lives.)

In any case, since when has the standard of guilty beyond reasonable doubt ever been applied to nations eliminating what they claim are credible threats to their sovereignty or the security of their citizens? That is never the standard used. Not by Israel. Not by Russia. Not by any other sovereign nation in the hundreds of such “elimination of threats” that take place each year.
What if OBL would have given himself up and walked into a US consulate. Would it have been OK for the US to kill him and cut him up in pieces?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 01:34:29 AM
What if OBL would have given himself up and walked into a US consulate. Would it have been OK for the US to kill him and cut him up in pieces?

It defies international norms and standards, and would be a stupid move and an international public relations nightmare. Any officials who participated ought to be punished appropriately. But if there was a reasonable assumption that he would harm civilians going forward it would be wrong to assert that OBL “didn’t deserve to die.”
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 01:47:47 AM
It defies international norms and standards, and would be a stupid move and an international public relations nightmare. Any officials who participated ought to be punished appropriately. But if there was a reasonable assumption that he would harm civilians going forward it would be wrong to assert that OBL “didn’t deserve to die.”
"Deserve to die", I will leave that up to everyone's personal view. By our laws the answer would be no. Now you want to put him on trial and give him the death penalty if convicted, go for it.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 02:31:43 AM
"Deserve to die", I will leave that up to everyone's personal view. By our laws the answer would be no. Now you want to put him on trial and give him the death penalty if convicted, go for it.

If you are asking a legal opinion you are 100% correct “By our laws” you would need a trial and due process. If you are defining “Deserve to die” by a moral standard, that is very different. Some would say allowing OBL to live when the result would be many innocent people dying would actually be morally reprehensible and unjustifiable.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Proisrael on October 21, 2018, 07:16:05 AM
The world is a better place with him silent. Whether he deserved to die in the first place is up to Saudia rules. He was on Saudia land. If they deemed him a traitor and made the judgement there then its fine.
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: zh cohen on October 21, 2018, 07:24:47 AM
The media are upset about what happened to one of their own. Unsurprising. We see the same here all the time.

Not surprising at all to me, but they constantly insist that their personal baises don't affect their reporting.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 08:22:29 AM
Not surprising at all to me, but they constantly insist that their personal baises don't affect their reporting.
I think it has been pretty clear that this has never been my opinion.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 08:24:08 AM
Innocent until proven guilty simply  states that by no means should anyone have pulled the trigger. However now that he is dead, innocent until guilty kind of goes the other way. it sounds like you would have no problem as judge and jury convicting his killers of the murder of an innocent man. Is that so clear cut or would you apply the innocent until proven guilty standard to them as well? I’m not saying innocent. I’m saying that perhaps there is reasonable doubt. ( I’m not talking about the method used, or the need to uphold international laws and norms. I’m talking about the morality of his having been killed to the degree that his incitement of others had the potential to cause the loss of innocent lives.)

In any case, since when has the standard of guilty beyond reasonable doubt ever been applied to nations eliminating what they claim are credible threats to their sovereignty or the security of their citizens? That is never the standard used. Not by Israel. Not by Russia. Not by any other sovereign nation in the hundreds of “elimination of threats” that take place each year. Would you hold the IDF to the standard of innocent until proven guilty when there is a hamas operative that appears to be planning a terrorist attack on civilians?
Nothing you wrote has been anything more than standard pro Palestinian stupidity.if this are your standards to kill someone you can justify genocide.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: zh cohen on October 21, 2018, 08:26:52 AM
I think it has been pretty clear that this has never been my opinion.

Right.

Can we agree to agree?
Title: Re: Khashoggi (חשוקג׳י in Hebrew, כאַשאָקדזשי in Yiddish) disappearance
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 08:28:06 AM
Not surprising at all to me, but they constantly insist that their personal baises don't affect their reporting.
Sort of like the posts in this thread?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 09:00:05 AM
Nothing you wrote has been anything more than standard pro Palestinian stupidity.if this are your standards to kill someone you can justify genocide.

If you are positing that his writings as an influential voice in the muslim world did not/will not result in the murder of innocent civilians I agree with you that he did not deserve to be killed. If they did have that potential I disagree with you. I’m not convinced either way therefore I think it’s not clear whether he did or did not deserve to be killed.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 09:16:04 AM
The world is a better place with him silent. Whether he deserved to die in the first place is up to Saudia rules. He was on Saudia land. If they deemed him a traitor and made the judgement there then its fine.

????
I could not disagree with you more.
Do you mean that the embassy is considered Saudi land? He was on Turkish soil until the Saudi’s lured him to his death. Did China have the right to lure the head of Interpol to the mainland so they could do away with him, since he ended up on their soil? I think others have a right to judge the Saudi actions based on their own moral standards, not Saudi rules.

Regardless of where it took place the world has a right to pass judgement on a nations actions.The world can condemn North Korea for putting millions of their own in concentration camps and starving and beating them even though it’s on North Korean land. The world can condemn China for forcing millions of Uighurs into “re-education camps” despite their taking place on Chinese soil. The same goes for the dozens of other countries and regimes that starve, beat, imprison, and murder various segments of their populations. Just because it takes place on your land doesn’t give you a moral pass.

The fact that the world turns a blind eye to all these ongoing atrocities , but is enraged at selective situations such as this one (as well as the “oppression of the Palestinian people” ) is a testament to world hypocrisy, political expediency trumping morality,  and might makes right.....

(As an aside, this is why the UN will never be an effective organization. It is not that it is a failure as an organization, just that it will always be a reflection of the behavior and moral compass of the nations that it is comprised of, and so it will always manifest the hypocrisy and lack of moral standards that are endemic to the counties in its membership.)
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: churnbabychurn on October 21, 2018, 09:26:54 AM
Don't need a 15 person team and a bone cutter to kidnap someone.
Imho he was clearly an agent of some side and they needed to extract vital Intel from him. This is how it is done.

Either way, it's just one dead guy. Don't understand why the world has to care. I'm sure people die in SA every day like this.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 10:33:21 AM


Imho he was clearly an agent of some side and they needed to extract vital Intel from him. This is how it is done.

Either way, it's just one dead guy. Don't understand why the world has to care. I'm sure people die in SA every day like this.



The media are upset about what happened to one of their own. Unsurprising. We see the same here all the time.


Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 10:34:30 AM
If you are positing that his writings as an influential voice in the muslim world did not/will not result in the murder of innocent civilians I agree with you that he did not deserve to be killed. If they did have that potential I disagree with you. I’m not convinced either way therefore I think it’s not clear whether he did or did not deserve to be killed.
Do you think that there will be less violence now that he is dead?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: shwarmabob on October 21, 2018, 10:48:58 AM
I think it’s not clear whether he did or did not deserve to be killed.
The Saudis killed one of their own citizens. This happens everyday in Iran, in China, etc. Turkey has thousands in jail because they expressed disagreement with their Sultan. Where is the outrage?
It is this selective outrage that seems a bit strange.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 10:51:57 AM
How about we start a list of who deserves to die. Murdered and cut up into pieces.
I will start. What about the traitor Jonathan Pollard? Should he have been murdered and cut up into pieces while on American soil?
Hopefully you get the point!!!
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Emkay on October 21, 2018, 12:03:38 PM
How about we start a list of who deserves to die. Murdered and cut up into pieces.
I will start. What about the traitor Jonathan Pollard? Should he have been murdered and cut up into pieces while on American soil?
Hopefully you get the point!!!
Strawmanning. SOP.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on October 21, 2018, 12:07:33 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-official/amid-scepticism-saudi-official-provides-another-version-of-khashoggi-death-idUSKCN1MV04V

I actually think the silencing/chokehold story sounds more plausible than the rumors that have been circulated. Setting up this operation in order to deliberately kill him in the consulate is beyond stupid. I highly doubt that was the original plan.

As to who knew what, and how the body was removed, that's another story, but I really doubt the intention was to kill him right then and there. More likely they intended to bring him to Saudi Arabia and then come up with some story that he was arrested etc. etc. or that he voluntarily agreed to go.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 12:27:03 PM
Strawmanning. SOP.
No, putting it in terms most here would understand.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 12:30:53 PM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-official/amid-scepticism-saudi-official-provides-another-version-of-khashoggi-death-idUSKCN1MV04V

I actually think the silencing/chokehold story sounds more plausible than the rumors that have been circulated. Setting up this operation in order to deliberately kill him in the consulate is beyond stupid. I highly doubt that was the original plan.

As to who knew what, and how the body was removed, that's another story, but I really doubt the intention was to kill him right then and there. More likely they intended to bring him to Saudi Arabia and then come up with some story that he was arrested etc. etc. or that he voluntarily agreed to go.
The problem is nothing they say now will believed unless backed up with video proof.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 12:39:34 PM
Strawmanning. SOP.
I don't see how. some members here are saying the guy deserved to die for some comments which he made that they think were inciteful. With that line of reasoning, it can be justified to kill anyone you disagree with.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on October 21, 2018, 01:37:12 PM
The problem is nothing they say now will believed unless backed up with video proof.
Or if world players find it in their best interest to believe and accept. It will have to be more than just a story.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 21, 2018, 01:51:12 PM
Or if world players find it in their best interest to believe and accept. It will have to be more than just a story.
Do they care about world players besides Trump? He gave them cover from day one with the rouge comment.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 02:09:40 PM
How about we start a list of who deserves to die. Murdered and cut up into pieces.
I will start. What about the traitor Jonathan Pollard? Should he have been murdered and cut up into pieces while on American soil?
Hopefully you get the point!!!

That’s not fair. The list has to be made in a fair, democratic, and transparent process. Everyone gets to vote on who makes the list of those who deserve to die. UN monitors can ensure that there are no voting irregularities. Of course, 1.5 billion people on this planet will vote for “the infidels”.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 02:40:01 PM
That’s not fair. The list has to be made in a fair, democratic, and transparent process. Everyone gets to vote on who makes the list of those who deserve to die. UN monitors can ensure that there are no voting irregularities. Of course, 1.5 billion people on this planet will vote for “the infidels”.
You just made a better argument against yourself than anyone here.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: greatluck on October 21, 2018, 03:58:29 PM
“DON’T MOURN FOR KHASHOGGI,” tweeted David Horowitz, a prominent conservative reactionary. “He was a Muslim Brotherhood operative, a pro-jihad, pro-Iranian, pro–[Tayyip] Erdoğan Jew-hater. A supporter of Iran.
https://www.vanityfair.com/news/2018/10/donald-trump-pro-saudi-right-reacts-jamal-khashoggi
and https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/why-the-saudis-despised-jamal-khashoggi/
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 05:15:52 PM
You just made a better argument against yourself than anyone here.

Now you have me really confused. Are you saying there is no one on this planet who “deserved to die” from a moral standpoint (we are not talking about condemning him to death and hiring a hit squad- we are talking about someone who is already dead) just because there are people who have distorted ideas of what is morally right and anyone can claim anyone deserves to die? That doesn’t add up.

You may have presented a good, practical reason as to why people should not be killed in such an arbitrary manor- it would set bad precedent and give license to kill just about anyone and claim it was deserved.

But that has no bearing on the question at hand: not should they have killed him. Not should his killers be punished. Not should there be diplomatic consequences. The question is did he deserve to die from a moral standpoint. That is a question I don’t think has a clear answer at this point.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 21, 2018, 10:12:07 PM
https://www.foxnews.com/world/turkey-vows-crackdown-over-khashoggi-as-critics-call-erdogan-regime-worlds-worst-jailer-of-journalists.amp
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 21, 2018, 11:19:25 PM
Now you have me really confused. Are you saying there is no one on this planet who “deserved to die” from a moral standpoint (we are not talking about condemning him to death and hiring a hit squad- we are talking about someone who is already dead) just because there are people who have distorted ideas of what is morally right and anyone can claim anyone deserves to die? That doesn’t add up.

You may have presented a good, practical reason as to why people should not be killed in such an arbitrary manor- it would set bad precedent and give license to kill just about anyone and claim it was deserved.

But that has no bearing on the question at hand: not should they have killed him. Not should his killers be punished. Not should there be diplomatic consequences. The question is did he deserve to die from a moral standpoint. That is a question I don’t think has a clear answer at this point.
I have no idea what you are trying to say. Are you simply saying that you are shedding no tears over the guy even though it was a terrible thing that he was killed?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on October 22, 2018, 12:35:47 AM
The bottom line is, with all the talk about "punishing" Saudi Arabia, they will likely try to find some kind of slap on the wrist.

The nonsense coming from Berlin about freezing arms sales, is just all talk to appease the (Turkish) masses.

(Almost) No one wants a more powerful and influential Iran. Saudi Arabia serves an important geopolitical stabilization and counterbalance role in the region. Somehow this will all go away and be forgotten.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Proisrael on October 22, 2018, 04:52:58 AM
????
I could not disagree with you more.
Do you mean that the embassy is considered Saudi land? He was on Turkish soil until the Saudi’s lured him to his death. Did China have the right to lure the head of Interpol to the mainland so they could do away with him, since he ended up on their soil? I think others have a right to judge the Saudi actions based on their own moral standards, not Saudi rules.

Regardless of where it took place the world has a right to pass judgement on a nations actions.The world can condemn North Korea for putting millions of their own in concentration camps and starving and beating them even though it’s on North Korean land. The world can condemn China for forcing millions of Uighurs into “re-education camps” despite their taking place on Chinese soil. The same goes for the dozens of other countries and regimes that starve, beat, imprison, and murder various segments of their populations. Just because it takes place on your land doesn’t give you a moral pass.

The fact that the world turns a blind eye to all these ongoing atrocities , but is enraged at selective situations such as this one (as well as the “oppression of the Palestinian people” ) is a testament to world hypocrisy, political expediency trumping morality,  and might makes right.....

(As an aside, this is why the UN will never be an effective organization. It is not that it is a failure as an organization, just that it will always be a reflection of the behavior and moral compass of the nations that it is comprised of, and so it will always manifest the hypocrisy and lack of moral standards that are endemic to the counties in its membership.)

Learn what it means to have an embassy on foreign soil. It is considered 100% Saudia land. Period. I did not say I agree that he had a fair trial but lets not sit here crying about a hypocritical hater of Jews/Israel.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Dan on October 22, 2018, 09:01:34 AM
It is considered 100% Saudia land. Period.
Not exactly.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: TimT on October 22, 2018, 09:35:56 AM
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-saudi-khashoggi-official/amid-scepticism-saudi-official-provides-another-version-of-khashoggi-death-idUSKCN1MV04V

I actually think the silencing/chokehold story sounds more plausible than the rumors that have been circulated. Setting up this operation in order to deliberately kill him in the consulate is beyond stupid. I highly doubt that was the original plan.

As to who knew what, and how the body was removed, that's another story, but I really doubt the intention was to kill him right then and there. More likely they intended to bring him to Saudi Arabia and then come up with some story that he was arrested etc. etc. or that he voluntarily agreed to go.
The forensics expert did a good job “convincing him”.
This one sounds like total bs. You’d be surprised at what’s taken place at these facilities right here in NYC.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on October 23, 2018, 12:38:22 AM
The forensics expert did a good job “convincing him”.
This one sounds like total bs. You’d be surprised at what’s taken place at these facilities right here in NYC.
I wouldn't be surprised one bit. But I don't think the original intention was to kill him right then and there. It just creates a different level of diplomatic mess.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on October 23, 2018, 03:24:03 PM
Some good points here:

http://www.latimes.com/opinion/op-ed/la-oe-goldberg-khashoggi-20181023-story.html?outputType=amp
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 25, 2018, 10:44:08 AM
https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/saudi-arabia-in-latest-reversal-says-khashoggi’s-killing-was-premeditated/ar-BBOSaaK?ocid=spartandhp
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Ergel on October 25, 2018, 05:12:56 PM
These Saudis are such clowns. How many times can you change your story
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: Dan on October 25, 2018, 05:32:48 PM
These Saudis are such clowns. How many times can you change your story
The whole thing is amateur hour.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: TimT on October 25, 2018, 07:15:35 PM
I’m surprised they let his fiancée live. Seems like they didn’t really care that the world would find out.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 25, 2018, 07:54:23 PM
These Saudis are such clowns. How many times can you change your story
They took lessons from Avanetti?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 25, 2018, 07:59:20 PM
They took lessons from Trump Avanetti?
::)
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: cmey on October 25, 2018, 08:18:06 PM
The story is pretty old already. Kind of beating a dead horse....
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: justaregularguy on October 25, 2018, 08:25:40 PM
The story is pretty old already. King of beating a dead saudi....
FTFY
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: aygart on October 26, 2018, 09:24:34 AM
::)
Nahh, Trump would just stick to the original story no matter how implausible.
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on October 26, 2018, 09:38:10 AM
Nahh, Trump would just stick to the original story no matter how implausible.
Like the meeting with the Russians at Trump tower? ROFLMAO!!!
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: shwarmabob on October 26, 2018, 12:10:05 PM
how much more professional Mother Russia is:


/warning I don't condone any killings/
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on November 15, 2018, 07:43:47 AM
Starting this thread in the middle of this fiasco, with the latest results out of the Saudi transparent investigation.

https://nypost.com/2018/10/18/saudi-who-arrived-in-turkey-day-of-khashoggi-disappearance-dies-in-traffic-accident/amp/

@ChaimMoskowitz how do we set up the betting on the number of people that will die for this, and how many methods will be used?
https://www.foxnews.com/world/saudi-arabia-indicts-11-seeks-death-penalty-for-5-in-the-murder-of-columnist-jamal-khashoggi.amp

So does this put the toll at 6? With only 2 methods?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 15, 2018, 09:43:32 AM
So does this put the toll at 6? With only 2 methods?
So this was their end game?
Title: Re: Jamal Khashoggi Murdered At Saudi Consulate
Post by: ExGingi on November 15, 2018, 11:42:05 AM
So this was their end game?

I don't think so. But this is just the MO of absolute monarchies.