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DansDeals Forum => Destination Guides And Trip Planning => Topic started by: brooklyndan on October 30, 2018, 12:03:34 AM

Title: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan (and what happened in Antarctica)
Post by: brooklyndan on October 30, 2018, 12:03:34 AM
Does anyone have experience being on a cruise that Kosherica is on, but booking it on your own and eating the ship's kosher food options?
I wanted to know if Kosherica is okay with joining their minyan or do they have a problem with that.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: EJB on October 30, 2018, 12:22:09 AM
Does anyone have experience being on a cruise that Kosherica is on, but booking it on your own and eating the ship's kosher food options?
I wanted to know if Kosherica is okay with joining their minyan or do they have a problem with that.

I thought they very much didn't allow this, unless you are a member of the program.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: ual902 on October 30, 2018, 12:35:39 AM
Does anyone have experience being on a cruise that Kosherica is on, but booking it on your own and eating the ship's kosher food options?
I wanted to know if Kosherica is okay with joining their minyan or do they have a problem with that.

Been on Kosherica, they are not very comfortable with people who are not on their program joining  even shul  minyanim, they are aware that people go on the ship on their own, someone from Kosherica may or may not approach you about your KR wrist band.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: zagguru on November 04, 2018, 04:26:56 PM
Been on Kosherica, they are not very comfortable with people who are not on their program joining  even shul  minyanim, they are aware that people go on the ship on their own, someone from Kosherica may or may not approach you about your KR wrist band.

do they ever let you join the program on the ship by paying?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 04, 2018, 04:38:10 PM
Been on Kosherica, they are not very comfortable with people who are not on their program joining  even shul  minyanim, they are aware that people go on the ship on their own, someone from Kosherica may or may not approach you about your KR wrist band.
that seems cruel to not allow Jews to pray in a minyan.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: jj1000 on November 04, 2018, 05:38:47 PM
that seems cruel to not allow Jews to pray in a minyan.
business is business.

Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 04, 2018, 05:45:10 PM
business is business.
i get that. But they're not losing anything by letting them pray.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: whYME on November 04, 2018, 05:46:37 PM
that seems cruel to not allow Jews to pray in a minyan.
It seems cruel to expect to use facilities that someone is paying for for free
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 04, 2018, 05:49:44 PM
It seems cruel to expect to use facilities that someone is paying for for free
im not sure exactly how this works. But if they happen to be in the ship anyway I don't see the issue. If people are gaming them then I get it.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: jj1000 on November 04, 2018, 05:56:11 PM
Of course people were gaming. So they need a policy.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: zagguru on November 04, 2018, 06:01:38 PM
It seems cruel to expect to use facilities that someone is paying for for free

Should shuls allow non-members to only pray if they pay a membership fee?

Its just joining a minyan on the cruise. They lose nothing.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 04, 2018, 06:03:30 PM
Of course people were gaming. So they need a policy.
then I stand corrected
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: whYME on November 04, 2018, 06:06:15 PM
Should shuls allow non-members to only pray if they pay a membership fee?
This is not a shul. It's a business. One of the services they're selling is a shul for their customers.

Its just joining a minyan on the cruise. They lose nothing.
Obviously they feel that allowing people to just join the minyan costs them customers and/or devalues their product.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: zagguru on November 04, 2018, 06:07:42 PM
This is not a shul. It's a business. One of the services they're selling is a shul for their customers.
Obviously they feel that allowing people to just join the minyan costs them customers and/or devalues their product.

I could be mistaken, but I think the people who dont join the program, will not start to join just because of the minyan access.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: sruly on November 04, 2018, 07:17:02 PM
It seems cruel to expect to use facilities that someone is paying for for free
we did a cruise on our own and they gave us a conference room to use (for free) for Shacharis every day.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: EJB on November 04, 2018, 07:39:09 PM
I could be mistaken, but I think the people who dont join the program, will not start to join just because of the minyan access.

I disagree. If, for example, the cruise operator charges 3k, and kosherica charges 6k, there definitely could be people who think the 3k savings is worth the crappier food they'll get if they don't join kosherica, especially if they do get access to minyanim that kosherica also arranges.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: zagguru on November 05, 2018, 06:33:19 AM
I disagree. If, for example, the cruise operator charges 3k, and kosherica charges 6k, there definitely could be people who think the 3k savings is worth the crappier food they'll get if they don't join kosherica, especially if they do get access to minyanim that kosherica also arranges.

I actually think its more like less than $1k vs $6k. But eitherway, maybe its just me, but i was raised that if someone walks into your shul on the high holidays and didnt buy a seat, you give him one. I know this isnt a shul, but still, if someone wants the pray, just let the man pray. Dont deny anyone from davening with you.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Ergel on November 05, 2018, 06:38:07 AM
Very nice of you to be mevater on another man's business
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 05, 2018, 10:01:14 AM
This is the same question as taking anything of intangible value that the owner otherwise charges for. Part of the question would be what is Kosherica's product? Presumably minyan is part of it. Also someone needs to pay for the room.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Friars500 on November 05, 2018, 01:12:22 PM
I've often wondered this myself. The minayn is part of the service that Kosherica provides.  I don't buy the high holidays service argument because whether someone pays or not for the high holidays is often dictated by ability and/or affiliation with religion.  We should not turn away someone from davening because they can't afford it or even if they can, because they don't feel close enough.  A cruise is a luxury to start with and in essence, we are deciding to not pay the extra money because it is not worth it.

That being said, I would highly doubt that if Kosherica was just about minyan, that anyone would pay any more than a $100 bucks to ensure a room and sefer torah.  I don't see how the minyan portion of Kosherica is anything but a service to make sure that they don't lose customers who insist on minyan.  The extra expense a Kosherica consumer is paying is for the high level Kosher food and entertainment.  Some people want gourmet kosher and jewish entertainment and are willing to pay for it.  If there was a woman's only kosher cruise and no minyan, I doubt the cost would be much lower.  I don't think many (there might be a small percentage) people are going on Kosherica, as opposed to other vacation options, because minyan is expected.  it is more to ensure that people don't nix the idea and I would think that if a somehow a Kosherica group went forward where they only managed 8 men, they would be thrilled to get the help of a few more to complete the minyan.  I would hope that they would welcome people to the minyan   
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Dan on November 05, 2018, 01:33:07 PM
I'd have very mixed feelings.

There are literally thousands of hours of logistical work that went into organizing our small kosher cruise. It would seem to be unfair if someone came along and took advantage of a minyan without helping to defray the cost of making that minyan on a boat. A minyan is a small part of the cost of a kosher program, but it's part of the package and getting a torah onboard and obtaining space onboard is no small feat.

OTOH how do you say no to a fellow Jew wanting to daven with a minyan?

At any rate, this happens at Pesach programs all the time where people either sneak in for minyanim, lectures, and entertainment or they ask if they can attend without being part of the program. I think it reflects poorly on someone who would put himself in that situation.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Friars500 on November 05, 2018, 01:48:36 PM
Can you elaborate on that last statement? To me there is no excuse for sneaking in for a lecture, food, entertainment and the similar and I understand ths question of somebody is paying for the minyan (Kosherica pays for the room, pesach program is paying for the hotel, etc.) but what do you mean putting yourself in this situation?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 05, 2018, 01:54:38 PM
I think he means that there is no excuse for gaming the system by purposely going on cruises that you know have a kosher program and going on your own. But if you happen to be on a cruise and there happens to be a minyan then he doesn't see why they shouldn't let you join.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Dan on November 05, 2018, 01:58:31 PM
Can you elaborate on that last statement? To me there is no excuse for sneaking in for a lecture, food, entertainment and the similar and I understand ths question of somebody is paying for the minyan (Kosherica pays for the room, pesach program is paying for the hotel, etc.) but what do you mean putting yourself in this situation?
If you rent a house for Pesach in Orlando next to a community rented out by a program that has a dedicated house for a minyan for that program with the intention of using that as a minyan.
If you stay in the Fairmont Whistler for Pesach with the intention of buying your own catered food and sneaking into the Four Seasons program for a minyan.
If you buy a cabin on a boat specifically because someone else spent thousands of hours creating a business that offers a minyan for their customers.

You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Friars500 on November 05, 2018, 02:13:07 PM
I get that but I have also seen Pesach programs and similar events advertising (or just scheduling) minyanim and different times to cater to early risers, late risers, people who care about davening at specific zmanim and people who want to daven maariv before dinner, people who are coming back from excursions late and everything in between. Many times these minyanim need outsiders, not to mention unscheduled minyanim for participants. It works both ways.  This is what makes it hard. To me since, the minyan, while a service, is very important to programs to offer so people don't nix the program, I would hope they would welcome people, even though these people are taking advantage. My strong guess is most people taking advantage would not be willing to pay the extra cost for Kosherica or for the pesach program so they are not really losing and I can't imagine anyone who is willing to pay for the program saying that they weren't because they can get minyan for free anyway. The far vast majority of people paying is for the gourmet food and Jewish entertainment.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Something Fishy on November 05, 2018, 02:17:07 PM
The far vast majority of people paying is for the gourmet food and Jewish entertainment.

This is completely irrelevant.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Friars500 on November 05, 2018, 02:20:21 PM
By itself it would be - but I don't think in conjunction with everything else. 

Also, L'halacha, I don't know how this scenario fits with zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chosur.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Ergel on November 05, 2018, 02:25:00 PM
By itself it would be - but I don't think in conjunction with everything else. 

Also, L'halacha, I don't know how this scenario fits with zeh neheneh v'zeh lo chosur.
Seriously? Here it's karka d'avid l'meigar. Debate whether it's a gavra d'avid l'meigar, but I'd say it is, as he's currently being meigar, just not from the Jewish program
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Friars500 on November 05, 2018, 02:52:47 PM
In no way do I mean to minimize the cost and expense to Kosherica.  I just find this not so cut and dry.

As to your avid l'meigar, I don't think an individual person normally rents a space to daven.  Even when making minyanim, people just get ten people together wherever they can (preferably a private place - but not necessarily) and daven.  How many times do people make a minyan on chol hamoed at ball games, amusement parks, museums - all places where you paid an entrance fee.  People congregate and attractions try to accommodate if it doesn't get in the way.  Just curious, as women don't have the chiyuv for minyan, does your analysis change if a female would like to join in?

EDIT - in any event, I really didn't mean to turn this into a halachik conversation.  I think this is more a moral conversation.

Not that it resolves aything but I seem to recall that during yeshiva week, several cruise lines, because of the vast amount of frum people decided to dedicate a dining room for the kosher requests and for davening just because it was simpler.  I would find it interesting how the ships would deal with a large number of kosher guests on a boat that also has a Kosherica cruise.....
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: ual902 on November 05, 2018, 10:54:01 PM
Kosherica pays the cruise for a designated room for davening and other social events, there may or may not be a security guard at the door checking for wrist bands, also kosherica staff may not approach you but they can send the ship security.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: how on November 05, 2018, 11:51:37 PM
I wonder how many people are planning on joining the minyan on the Antarctica cruise...

Just remember to bring along a extra bencher for them
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: justaregularguy on November 06, 2018, 12:02:01 AM
I wonder how many people are planning on joining the minyan on the Antarctica cruise...

Just remember to bring along a extra bencher for them
or don’t  ;)
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: how on November 06, 2018, 12:08:34 AM
or don’t  ;)
or they can raffle them off....

Sorry couldn't resist :)
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Something Fishy on November 06, 2018, 12:15:16 AM
I wonder how many people are planning on joining the minyan on the Antarctica cruise...

You'd be surprised. We've had people try.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: how on November 06, 2018, 12:16:29 AM
You'd be surprised. We've had people try.
you’ll be surprised. When you get there  ;D
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: tavster on November 06, 2018, 06:47:52 AM
Does anyone have experience being on a cruise that Kosherica is on, but booking it on your own and eating the ship's kosher food options?
I wanted to know if Kosherica is okay with joining their minyan or do they have a problem with that.
My parents were on a boat that happened to have a kosherica group. They allowed my dad attend shabbos morning davening but he could tell the manager wasn't happy about it.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: eliteflyer on November 06, 2018, 11:55:32 AM
Years ago I worked on a couple of Kosherica cruises. For some services (including all shabbos services and whenever there was food/entertainment), a minyan was no problem, but for some of the mid-week minyanim when the ship was docked at a port of call, kosherica customers saying kadish were very grateful for a few non-Kosherica guests who helped make the minyan.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 06, 2018, 12:03:25 PM
Years ago I worked on a couple of Kosherica cruises. For some services (including all shabbos services and whenever there was food/entertainment), a minyan was no problem, but for some of the mid-week minyanim when the ship was docked at a port of call, kosherica customers saying kadish were very grateful for a few non-Kosherica guests who helped make the minyan.
they should have made Kosherica pay them for using them to complete the minyan
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: avromie7 on November 06, 2018, 12:18:26 PM
You'd be surprised. We've had people try.
Would you allow someone to join your minyan?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: elit on November 06, 2018, 02:19:15 PM
that seems cruel to not allow Jews to pray in a minyan.
was going to respond exactly what Dan said
IMO its completely wrong. if its pure by accident that u had no idea there was Kosherica on board then maybe... but I certainly would expect Kosherica to stick to their policy and only allow customers or you would have many people claiming they had no idea... Pesach programs deal with this all the time and its straight up stealing
If you rent a house for Pesach in Orlando next to a community rented out by a program that has a dedicated house for a minyan for that program with the intention of using that as a minyan.
If you stay in the Fairmont Whistler for Pesach with the intention of buying your own catered food and sneaking into the Four Seasons program for a minyan.
If you buy a cabin on a boat specifically because someone else spent thousands of hours creating a business that offers a minyan for their customers.

You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: how on November 06, 2018, 02:29:04 PM
was going to respond exactly what Dan said
IMO its completely wrong. if its pure by accident that u had. one idea there was Kosherica on board then maybe... but I certainly would expect Kosherica to stick to their policy and only allow customers or you would have many people claiming they had no idea... Pesach programs deal with this all the time and its straight up stealing
well once your just davening there you get to use the shuls facilities, take a coffee, make a lchaim, take some extra milk for the baby etc.

I know people who run some of these programs. Some of them are happy to let people join as long as they ask, and others are just outright shocked again every year by the amount of extra milk and coffee they need to bring in for the "guests".

People really don't realize what effort and cost is involved. If you do need to daven there, ask and respect the answer.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: chff on November 06, 2018, 02:49:38 PM
if its pure by accident that u had no idea there was Kosherica on board then maybe...

Most such people book these cruise in particular because they know Kosherica is on that cruise, no one is showing up by surprise
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: whYME on November 06, 2018, 02:51:42 PM
Most such people book these cruise in particular because they know Kosherica is on that cruise, no one is showing up by surprise
?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 06, 2018, 02:59:45 PM
Most such people book these cruise in particular because they know Kosherica is on that cruise, no one is showing up by surprise
How can one know that Kosherica is on a particular cruise? Why dont they keep that info private?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: chff on November 06, 2018, 03:05:40 PM
?

You get my point

How can one know that Kosherica is on a particular cruise? Why dont they keep that info private?

They have a website - all cruises are listed https://www.kosherica.com/koshercruises/index.asp

I know someone that booked a cruise to piggyback on Kosherica, but when they arrived at the port they found out they booked the wrong one...
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 06, 2018, 03:50:42 PM
You get my point

They have a website - all cruises are listed https://www.kosherica.com/koshercruises/index.asp

I know someone that booked a cruise to piggyback on Kosherica, but when they arrived at the port they found out they booked the wrong one...
so why dont they keep that info private?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: chff on November 06, 2018, 03:52:34 PM
so why dont they keep that info private?

huh? they have a website where they advertise when they have cruises so people can book etc
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 06, 2018, 03:55:46 PM
huh? they have a website where they advertise when they have cruises so people can book etc
Again I am no cruise expert but I'm guessing that there can be a way to advertise a cruise and not give out the exact ship that they are on. But I could be wrong
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Yaalili on November 06, 2018, 03:58:32 PM
Again I am no cruise expert but I'm guessing that there can be a way to advertise a cruise and not give out the exact ship that they are on. But I could be wrong

The write the date and which cruise line it will be operated by. What more info do you possibly need?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: mochjas on November 06, 2018, 04:01:29 PM
The write the date and which cruise line it will be operated by. What more info do you possibly need?
maybe dont give out the cruise line Just the date and location its leaving from...
Again I am clueless I always thought they had their own ships.

Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Yaalili on November 06, 2018, 04:06:29 PM
maybe dont give out the cruise line Just the date and location its leaving from...
Again I am clueless I always thought they had their own ships.

People have a strong preference for which cruise operator it will be on. RCCL is a lot better than NCL.

Kosherica does not operate any ships :) - they must be the minority on the ship to avoid Shabbos issues.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Galitzyaner on November 07, 2018, 08:19:29 PM
was going to respond exactly what Dan said
IMO its completely wrong. if its pure by accident that u had no idea there was Kosherica on board then maybe... but I certainly would expect Kosherica to stick to their policy and only allow customers or you would have many people claiming they had no idea... Pesach programs deal with this all the time and its straight up stealing
Partaking from their coffee, milk etc, as someone here mentioned, that would be "straight up stealing".
But to say that simply davening in their minyan is "straight up stealing" is stretching it...
Many reasons were cited above.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: Galitzyaner on November 07, 2018, 08:39:10 PM
I think it reflects poorly on someone who would put himself in that situation.

I find this discussion interesting.
If someone is planning to spend his next holiday vacation going on a cruise, and during his research he happens to see
that during some of his potential vacation dates there is incidentally a Kosher cruise taking place.
Would he be so bad to think "hey why not join that cruise, since there will be so many Yidden on there,
I know there's a high chance I can also daven with a minyan"?
Now, this is someone who would never be able to afford a "Kosher cruise", and wasn't originally even thinking
there'd be a minyan on the cruise he happens to be on.
Why would it be so bad for him to tag along?

I don't think this is comparable to a luxurious cruise like Antarctica where people are spending a fortune regardless,
and as mentioned, the logistics are tough etc.

I'd have very mixed feelings.

There are literally thousands of hours of logistical work that went into organizing our small kosher cruise. It would seem to be unfair if someone came along and took advantage of a minyan without helping to defray the cost of making that minyan on a boat. A minyan is a small part of the cost of a kosher program, but it's part of the package and getting a torah onboard and obtaining space onboard is no small feat.

I'm completely cruise-ignorant, but do you think all that applies on regular (i.e. non-Actarctica) cruise?
Do you mean to say that on typical (not very atypical/special considerations like Antarctica) cruises they spend many hours and much money
solely on making the minyan?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: whYME on November 07, 2018, 10:46:12 PM
Now, this is someone who would never be able to afford a "Kosher cruise", and wasn't originally even thinking
there'd be a minyan on the cruise he happens to be on.
Why would it be so bad for him to tag along?
The question is not about this guy, it's the guy who might otherwise go with kosherica or is on the fence but figures "I'll have a minyan anyways so why should I go with them."
Are there people like this? I have no idea. Kosherica seems to think there is.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: zagguru on November 08, 2018, 07:07:48 AM
The question is not about this guy, it's the guy who might otherwise go with kosherica or is on the fence but figures "I'll have a minyan anyways so why should I go with them."
Are there people like this? I have no idea. Kosherica seems to think there is.

Personally, what would make me go on a kosherica cruise is simple the food. Everything else is an added bonus.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: yesitsme on November 08, 2018, 09:26:44 AM
The response should be "Sure you're more then welcome it cost $---.00 how should we bill you?"
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan
Post by: brooklyndan on November 08, 2018, 12:48:16 PM
Wow! I didn't realize what a can of worms I was opening by starting this post. So many different perspectives.
When I originally asked the question, I wasn't asking whether I can join the minyan (or sneak in, if that's your preference), I was asking, would they be ok with it (meaning allow it). I personally wouldn't feel comfortable or focused on talking to G-d, if the organizers of the minyan weren't ok with my presence there. Of course, if I was #10, that may be different, but not a likely scenario.
I wonder if Dan's perspective changed on this issue since organizing the Antarctica cruise.
Title: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: shaulyaakov on December 23, 2018, 08:39:54 AM
[quote author=farmbochur link=topic=99236.msg2033046#msg2033046 date=1545417506

https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=96861.15

After reading the above thread for the first time I have to say that IMHO, Dan's comments on it were very "unlubavitcher" if there is such a word. It made me feel that in the end it was all about the $$ (I would equate hours spent on planning to dollars). Isn't lubavitcher's mission to encourage random jews to pray? They stand on the street before shabbos or a holiday asking if people are jewish and asking them to make a brocha etc. Why would it be any different for one to come to a minyan and pray? It made me feel a little bit ashamed of my thoughts on Dan prior to reading this thread and the pedestal i had put him on.
I apologize for my unwieldy thought processes being "all over the place". I was truly shaken by reading the people's posts in this thread.
So anyone on Dan's trip could not have paid and taken advantage of the fact that he's Chabad to get a free minyan and kosher food?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 09:09:57 AM
https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=96861.15

After reading the above thread for the first time I have to say that IMHO, Dan's comments on it were very "unlubavitcher" if there is such a word. It made me feel that in the end it was all about the $$ (I would equate hours spent on planning to dollars). Isn't lubavitcher's mission to encourage random jews to pray? They stand on the street before shabbos or a holiday asking if people are jewish and asking them to make a brocha etc. Why would it be any different for one to come to a minyan and pray? It made me feel a little bit ashamed of my thoughts on Dan prior to reading this thread and the pedestal i had put him on.
I apologize for my unwieldy thought processes being "all over the place". I was truly shaken by reading the people's posts in this thread.
Not sure what you misunderstood here.
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.

The problem would be if there were Jews who specifically booked passage on the cruise while paying 5 figures just to take advantage of their services without paying the small premium for those services.

That didn't happen, but it could have been quite awkward. In the end we had an amazing array of Jews from all walks of life and it was truly special.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: jj1000 on December 23, 2018, 09:24:20 AM
Not sure what you misunderstood here.
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.

The problem would be if there were Jews who specifically booked passage on the cruise while paying 5 figures just to take advantage of their services without paying the small premium for those services.

That didn't happen, but it could have been quite awkward. In the end we had an amazing array of Jews from all walks of life and it was truly special.
Nice! Can't wait for the full TR!
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: cmey on December 23, 2018, 10:30:41 AM
Not sure what you misunderstood here.
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.

The problem would be if there were Jews who specifically booked passage on the cruise while paying 5 figures just to take advantage of their services without paying the small premium for those services.

That didn't happen, but it could have been quite awkward. In the end we had an amazing array of Jews from all walks of life and it was truly special.

Have to side with Dan on this one. It’s one thing to pull Jews into a minyan. It’s another for someone to intentionally piggyback on someone else’s efforts. You see this attitude all the time- “my shtender doesn’t cost the yeshiva anything” “it doesn’t cost the shul a dime for me to join them on shabbosim- they have to pay utilities anyway” etc. Thos attitude is wrong on so many levels, it is the opposite of the way frum Jews should relate to the community and should never be encouraged. Perhaps it is better that they don’t have access to a minyan than to be an enabler to their improper attitude....
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: lyla on December 23, 2018, 12:51:59 PM
Not sure what you misunderstood here.
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.

The problem would be if there were Jews who specifically booked passage on the cruise while paying 5 figures just to take advantage of their services without paying the small premium for those services.

That didn't happen, but it could have been quite awkward. In the end we had an amazing array of Jews from all walks of life and it was truly special.
What I was referring to were the comments that you made on the older "kosherica" thread. I'm glad you let other Jews join you on your cruise but it doesn't take away what you had stated on the other thread. A Jew is a Jew and, in my opinion, should be welcomed to join a minyan whether they paid for a program or not. Everyone is entitled to voice their own opinion. I'm glad that you voiced yours but I was taken aback when I read it. That's all. I will return to blend into the woodwork!
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 12:59:23 PM
What I was referring to were the comments that you made on the older "kosherica" thread. I'm glad you let other Jews join you on your cruise but it doesn't take away what you had stated on the other thread. A Jew is a Jew and, in my opinion, should be welcomed to join a minyan whether they paid for a program or not. Everyone is entitled to voice their own opinion. I'm glad that you voiced yours but I was taken aback when I read it. That's all. I will return to blend into the woodwork!
Please explain exactly what I said that you disagree with.

My beef is with someone who would specifically seek out a kosher cruise in order to utilize their services while avoiding to defray the cost of providing those services on a boat.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: zagguru on December 23, 2018, 12:59:34 PM
Not sure what you misunderstood here.
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.



They booked the trip without knowing about your program? Did any of them join or pay?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 01:05:19 PM
They booked the trip without knowing about your program? Did any of them join or pay?
Nobody did that. In the previous thread I was referring to the theoretical.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: lyla on December 23, 2018, 01:10:26 PM
Please explain exactly what I said that you disagree with.

"I'd have very mixed feelings.

There are literally thousands of hours of logistical work that went into organizing our small kosher cruise. It would seem to be unfair if someone came along and took advantage of a minyan without helping to defray the cost of making that minyan on a boat. A minyan is a small part of the cost of a kosher program, but it's part of the package and getting a torah onboard and obtaining space onboard is no small feat.

OTOH how do you say no to a fellow Jew wanting to daven with a minyan?

At any rate, this happens at Pesach programs all the time where people either sneak in for minyanim, lectures, and entertainment or they ask if they can attend without being part of the program. I think it reflects poorly on someone who would put himself in that situation."

"You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense."
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 01:21:22 PM
"I'd have very mixed feelings.

There are literally thousands of hours of logistical work that went into organizing our small kosher cruise. It would seem to be unfair if someone came along and took advantage of a minyan without helping to defray the cost of making that minyan on a boat. A minyan is a small part of the cost of a kosher program, but it's part of the package and getting a torah onboard and obtaining space onboard is no small feat.

OTOH how do you say no to a fellow Jew wanting to daven with a minyan?

At any rate, this happens at Pesach programs all the time where people either sneak in for minyanim, lectures, and entertainment or they ask if they can attend without being part of the program. I think it reflects poorly on someone who would put himself in that situation."

"You may think you're being a good Jew by sneaking in and davening in said minyan, but I'd posit that you are not. These are businesses offering a minyan to meet their paying clients needs, not community shuls. You are gaming the system at another Jew's expense."

Just to be clear.
You think that it is OK to specifically book a kosher cruise with the intention of using their services without paying for it?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 23, 2018, 01:28:21 PM
You think that it is OK to specifically book a kosher cruise with the intention of using their services without paying for it?
Can you say "freeloader"?  :)
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: lyla on December 23, 2018, 01:29:19 PM
Just to be clear.
You think that it is OK to specifically book a kosher cruise with the intention of using their services without paying for it?
Why is it ok to think that someone would specifically try to do this? It couldn't be a coincidence? Aren't kosher cruises on regular ships with regular passengers that may or may not be practicing Jews?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: luckyluck on December 23, 2018, 01:33:57 PM
Why is it ok to think that someone would specifically try to do this? It couldn't be a coincidence? Aren't kosher cruises on regular ships with regular passengers that may or may not be practicing Jews?

Why is it so hard to understand? Dan talks specifically about not a coincidence but someone who does this on purpose.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: lyla on December 23, 2018, 01:35:13 PM
It was never my intention to have this back and forth conversation with you in public. I was going to pm you my feelings after I read the previous thread but wasn't sure you would ever see it since your moniker asks people not to pm you. The only times I have gotten in touch with you privately was when I had something for you.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 01:35:15 PM
Why is it ok to think that someone would specifically try to do this? It couldn't be a coincidence? Aren't kosher cruises on regular ships with regular passengers that may or may not be practicing Jews?
As I said in that thread repeatedly, I was specifically referring to someone who booked that cruise intentionally to take advantage of those services, not from random people who happen to be there.

Obviously none of that would apply to random people who happen to be there, who we were happy to take care of.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: lyla on December 23, 2018, 01:37:37 PM
As I said in that thread repeatedly, I was specifically referring to someone who booked that cruise intentionally to take advantage of those services, not from random people who happen to be there.

Obviously none of that would apply to random people who happen to be there, who we were happy to take care of.
Ok. I will leave it at that. Thank you for clarifying.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: tzifanya54 on December 23, 2018, 02:16:20 PM
It was never my intention to have this back and forth conversation with you in public. I was going to pm you my feelings after I read the previous thread but wasn't sure you would ever see it since your moniker asks people not to pm you. The only times I have gotten in touch with you privately was when I had something for you.
JC how did you stop the people that tried booking this cruise and mooch off you. SF indicated people tried but were unsuccessful, I would imagine there isn’t much you can do to stop them (other than just not allowing them to daven with you).
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 02:26:49 PM
We didn't do anything to stop them.

We offered a very compelling value (Kosher food, wine, drinks, pre trip hotel, and much more) for a small premium and didn't have any issues.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Eliyohu on December 23, 2018, 04:27:30 PM

Not sure what you misunderstood here.
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.

The problem would be if there were Jews who specifically booked passage on the cruise while paying 5 figures just to take advantage of their services without paying the small premium for those services.

That didn't happen, but it could have been quite awkward. In the end we had an amazing array of Jews from all walks of life and it was truly special.



Nobody did that. In the previous thread I was referring to the theoretical.

Was there or wasn't there others on your cruise? Which part is theoretical?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: mochjas on December 23, 2018, 05:32:01 PM
We didn't do anything to stop them.

We offered a very compelling value (Kosher food, wine, drinks, pre trip hotel, and much more) for a small premium and didn't have any issues.
that seems unfair to those who paid the full price
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 05:36:21 PM
that seems unfair to those who paid the full price
There were no frum Jews who tried to game our services.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: yandmk on December 23, 2018, 05:41:22 PM
that seems unfair to those who paid the full price
There were no frum Jews who tried to game our services.
I believe that @mochjas misinterpreted the previous comment by @Dan to mean that you offered them onboard to join at a discounted price (by your words "for a small premium")
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 05:45:02 PM
Nobody joined onboard. All frum Jews on the boat reserved space with us beforehand.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: zagguru on December 23, 2018, 05:48:08 PM
Nobody joined onboard. All frum Jews on the boat reserved space with us beforehand.

Did some book directly with the cruise line and then join you (prior to boarding)?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: yandmk on December 23, 2018, 05:48:54 PM
There were other Jews on our cruise and we invited them to Shabbos meals, kosher food, etc.

Nobody joined onboard. All frum Jews on the boat reserved space with us beforehand.
I guess the "other" Jews were not (yet) religious...
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 05:51:42 PM
Did some book directly with the cruise line and then join you (prior to boarding)?

Nope.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Dan on December 23, 2018, 05:52:09 PM
I guess the "other" Jews were not (yet) religious...
Indeed.
And they didn't participate in almost anything.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: miles lover on December 23, 2018, 10:41:40 PM
Just to be clear.
You think that it is OK to specifically book a kosher cruise with the intention of using their services without paying for it?
To daven with them ? Nunu
 To try to get kosher food, no
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: shaulyaakov on December 24, 2018, 09:12:19 AM
To daven with them ? Nunu
 To try to get kosher food, no

Davening costs money also... someone has to pay for the room and the expenses of bringing the Torah. It would at least be proper for someone in this situation to offer to pay a nominal fee for davening with the minyan.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: yesitsme on December 24, 2018, 09:22:15 AM
Davening costs money also... someone has to pay for the room and the expenses of bringing the Torah. It would at least be proper for someone in this situation to offer to pay a nominal fee for davening with the minyan.
its halacha when someone builds a fence he can force his neighbor to chip in since he benefits from the privacy...
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: avromie7 on December 24, 2018, 09:38:06 AM
its halacha when someone builds a fence he can force his neighbor to chip in since he benefits from the privacy...
Ok, so tell Kosherica to charge $50-$100 for anyone who wants to join the minyan and help pay for the cost of having the minyan. (I don't think they'd be happy with that arrangement.)
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: Definitions on December 24, 2018, 09:40:55 AM
its halacha when someone builds a fence he can force his neighbor to chip in since he benefits from the privacy...
could davening have a definable amount of hanaa (or any mitzvah)?
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: yesitsme on December 24, 2018, 10:27:33 AM
could davening have a definable amount of hanaa (or any mitzvah)?
that depend on your level of observance, hence the reason why @Dan didn't bother charging those that he invited.

I wouldn't "Enjoy" a cruise with no minyan.
Title: Re: Re: Live Antarctica Trip Report
Post by: mmgfarb on December 24, 2018, 10:31:15 AM
its halacha when someone builds a fence he can force his neighbor to chip in since he benefits from the privacy...
That halacha has many pratim, it's not that simple.
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan (and what happened in Antarctica)
Post by: Ekay on January 02, 2019, 12:10:25 AM
What about going to the same hotel for example kmr takes out and just join there minyan?
Title: Re: Joining Kosherica cruise minyan (and what happened in Antarctica)
Post by: how on January 02, 2019, 12:15:21 AM
What about going to the same hotel for example kmr takes out and just join there minyan?
Did you read the thread?