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DansDeals Forum => Up In The Air => Topic started by: ar on November 15, 2018, 11:53:00 PM

Title: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ar on November 15, 2018, 11:53:00 PM
Check out LY 2 and LY 8 arrival times in TLV tomorrow. Obviously due to the weather... wonder if there's any from people on board.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deal Guy on November 16, 2018, 12:01:39 AM
Ly8 didnt even take off yet.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: farvus nisht? on November 16, 2018, 12:15:20 AM
My father is on ly 032, delayed as well they were supposed to land at 11:45am and are now landing at 2:47pm

Will he make it to yerushlaim to my new son's shulem z'?

(FYI he wanted to get off the flight but they did not let)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ar on November 16, 2018, 12:18:49 AM
My father is on ly 032, delayed as well they were supposed to land at 11:45am and are now landing at 2:47pm

Will he make it to yerushlaim to my new son's shulem z'?

(FYI he wanted to get off the flight but they did not let)

He should be fine. 2 hours is close but doable
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deal Guy on November 16, 2018, 12:56:08 AM
LY8 had no business taking off now. A total disgrace and chillul shabbos.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ruv on November 16, 2018, 01:44:42 AM
Departed 9:50.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deal Guy on November 16, 2018, 01:55:26 AM
LY8 took off at 12:43 am.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ruv on November 16, 2018, 02:00:47 AM
Funny.

Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 16, 2018, 02:49:13 AM
According to Flight Aware, LY 8 is scheduled to arrive in TLV at 3:30pm. That would be a record breaking 7hr 45min!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Proisrael on November 16, 2018, 03:29:41 AM
According to Flight Aware, LY 8 is scheduled to arrive in TLV at 3:30pm. That would be a record breaking 7hr 45min!

Other sites have it at 5-530PM....They will need to stop on the way
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deal Guy on November 16, 2018, 03:36:45 AM
Are there frum people on the flight?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 16, 2018, 04:11:10 AM
Other sites have it at 5-530PM....They will need to stop on the way
Bichadrei reporting that it's diverting to ATH
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 16, 2018, 05:55:56 AM
Bichadrei reporting that it's diverting to ATH
My first reaction is that they never learn, but then I realized the source so I will reserve judgment until we see what really happens.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 16, 2018, 06:02:45 AM
My first reaction is that they never learn, but then I realized the source so I will reserve judgment until we see what really happens.
Never learn what? There was severe weather. DL is landing in TLV about 8:30pm
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehudaa on November 16, 2018, 06:05:45 AM
Bechadrei is reporting that:

LY2 is diverting to Athens, landing at 2:45 pm with shabbos starting at 4:50 pm (instead of landing in TLV a half hour before shkiah). Approx 70 frum jews on board, many who switched from LY8. El Al has secured hotel rooms, and Rabbi Hendel of Chabad Athens is getting shabbos food and a sefer torah to the hotel. (What a chessed! No easy feat!)

LY8 is diverting to Rome, landing 3:00 pm, shabbos at 4:30. It's unknown how many frum jews are on that flight, most who were originally on it switched to LY2.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 16, 2018, 06:38:02 AM
LY8. El Al has secured hotel rooms, and Rabbi Hendel of Chabad Athens is getting shabbos food and a sefer torah to the hotel. (What a chessed! No easy feat!)


hopefully he is getting paid well by LY
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 16, 2018, 06:59:18 AM
Never learn what? There was severe weather. DL is landing in TLV about 8:30pm
To divert to a place that can better accommodate Yidden, and allow more time before Shabbos for that accommodation.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 16, 2018, 06:59:57 AM
My father is on ly 032, delayed as well they were supposed to land at 11:45am and are now landing at 2:47pm

Will he make it to yerushlaim to my new son's shulem z'?

(FYI he wanted to get off the flight but they did not let)

was he the only frum person? & if it was delayed by another hour he would also stay on board? (not blaming him, just asking)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 16, 2018, 07:49:30 AM
also in SVO, 50 frum people missed their connection to TLV, those without a visa will stay in the airport.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 16, 2018, 07:55:28 AM
also in SVO, 50 frum people missed their connection to TLV, those without a visa will stay in the airport.
Unless they have Israeli passports.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 16, 2018, 07:59:29 AM
from elal.com

+
LY002 אתונה (ATH) 16/11/2018 16:30תל אביב (TLV) 16/11/2018 18:30
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Proisrael on November 16, 2018, 08:49:32 AM
Not landing in Rome. There is a medical emergency and they are flying to israel
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 16, 2018, 09:01:10 AM
Not landing in Rome. There is a medical emergency and they are flying to israel
What is the emergency?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 16, 2018, 09:02:19 AM
What is the emergency?

To quote HRC: "what difference does it make at this point?"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 16, 2018, 09:02:39 AM
What is the emergency?
If had to guess it is that don't want to divert...
Are you allowed to get off the plane?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 16, 2018, 09:14:35 AM
Unless they have Israeli passports.

So those that were able to pass immigration were set up in Moscow, and those that weren't were set up in SVO.

http://col.org.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%97%D7%91%D7%93_%D7%A2%D7%A9%D7%A8%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%AA%D7%A7%D7%95%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%91%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%95%D7%91%D7%9E%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A7%D7%91%D7%94_%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%95%D7%97%D7%99%D7%9D_%D7%9E%D7%90%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%99%D7%9D_114512.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yaalili on November 16, 2018, 12:39:47 PM
Bechadrei is reporting that:

LY2 is diverting to Athens, landing at 2:45 pm with shabbos starting at 4:50 pm (instead of landing in TLV a half hour before shkiah). Approx 70 frum jews on board, many who switched from LY8. El Al has secured hotel rooms, and Rabbi Hendel of Chabad Athens is getting shabbos food and a sefer torah to the hotel. (What a chessed! No easy feat!)

LY8 is diverting to Rome, landing 3:00 pm, shabbos at 4:30. It's unknown how many frum jews are on that flight, most who were originally on it switched to LY2.


Collive Instagram has a video of some passengers on the Athens flight on the way to Chabad.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 17, 2018, 06:00:31 PM
according to the reports there was 180 shomer shabos on the flight, & LY provided hotel only for the 60 who ordered glatt kosher.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 06:34:47 PM
Israeli media seems to be flaming antisemitism. Apparently a reporter for Israel Hayom was on the flight and tries to dispel the lies. Saying that ELAL crew lied over and over about the situation. Seems like the reason for the long delay was that part of the ELAL crew didn't get to the airport on time due to the weather.

https://www.hidabroot.org/article/1117826
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 17, 2018, 06:35:41 PM
according to the reports there was 180 shomer shabos on the flight, & LY provided hotel only for the 60 who ordered glatt kosher.
LOL. Another reason to order SKML!
Source?

Does anyone who was on the flight want to be interviewed?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 17, 2018, 06:38:39 PM
LOL. Another reason to order SKML!
Source?

Does anyone who was on the flight want to be interviewed?
Make sure to hide their identity :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 06:39:10 PM
LOL. Another reason to order SKML!
Source?

Does anyone who was on the flight want to be interviewed?
Ask Rabbi Sorotzkin.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yaalili on November 17, 2018, 06:40:17 PM
LY provided hotel only for the 60 who ordered glatt kosher.

:)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 17, 2018, 06:43:53 PM
Any confirmation of the pilot saying if they chareidim would sit he would go back to the gate?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: jackofall on November 17, 2018, 06:47:17 PM
i]https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-one-of-those-violent-religious-passengers-on-el-al-flight-002/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter (https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-one-of-those-violent-religious-passengers-on-el-al-flight-002/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 17, 2018, 06:53:11 PM
Source?


http://www.bhol.co.il/news/954188
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yaalili on November 17, 2018, 07:01:53 PM
Airliners thread on this - https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408679
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 17, 2018, 07:15:38 PM
Any confirmation of the pilot saying if they chareidim would sit he would go back to the gate?
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/im-one-of-those-violent-religious-passengers-on-el-al-flight-002/?utm_source=dlvr.it&utm_medium=twitter
Quote
The captain blatantly lied to us. At 23:40, when it was clear that if we took off, we would land shortly before Shabbat in Israel, many religious people were demanding to be let off the plane. In order to get them to sit down the pilot announced that we were returning to the gate and to please sit. He then drove and took off within a few minutes — and of course in your seat you have no idea where the plane is driving towards. Lies.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: nescafe on November 17, 2018, 08:29:34 PM
Airliners thread on this - https://www.airliners.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=1408679
Insane is an understatement
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 09:33:47 PM
Insane is an understatement
IME people who are not Shomer Shabbos have no appreciation or understanding of what it means. Couple that with a prevailing poisonous vibe in the media and the left wing against Shomrei Shabbos, and this is what you get.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: nescafe on November 17, 2018, 09:45:41 PM
IME people who are not Shomer Shabbos have no appreciation or understanding of what it means. Couple that with a prevailing poisonous vibe in the media and the left wing against Shomrei Shabbos, and this is what you get.
Doesn't make it any better. It's still makes me sick to see such comments
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: MisterHock on November 17, 2018, 09:51:16 PM
FWD:

EL-AL SPONSORED SHABBOS OF UNITY

This Shabbos I had the tremendous privilege to be a part of something amazing, beautiful and enlightening. I am hoping El Al will see this and understand that there is a much better headline than the false headline “Haredim Riot On Plane” which I currently see online.   
Here is the short of it. Our El Al flight was supposed to leave at 6:30pm. 3 members of the crew were late and we started boarding at 8:30pm during which the crew members arrived. At 9:10pm the flight doors were closed and everything was calm for about an hour.
At around 10pm many of the passengers who were concerned about Shabbos starting asking the crew members for detail about departure and no answers were given other than we are leaving in 5 minutes. Keep in mind, that at 10:25pm sitting on a JFK runway,  El-AL’s website showed our flight as enroute having departed at 9:30PM.
I was sitting in business class, my seat was directly next to the stairs going to second floor, and 3 rows behind the first class food prep galley. I heard every exchange. At no time was there any physical threat presented by passengers concerned about Shabbos.  I am loathe to use the term Chareidim, this was not some Neturei Karta protest full of black clad chasidim spewing nonsense. These were Jews from all walks of life and varied backgrounds who were concerned about Shabbos.
At 11:35pm there were about 40 passengers, myself included, who stood by the exit door and expressed our wishes to disembark from the plane.  By this time we were sitting on the tarmac for two and half hours. One of the stewardesses told us that if they take us back to the gate and we get off the plane we would lose our tickets and not be rebooked.  I am not sure if she was trying to shock us into sitting or if this was the real policy, but our response was unanimous;. every single person said that’s fine, we are ok with that, just take us back to the gate so we don’t violate Shabbos.   Not one person said, “What?? No,you have to rebook us”, or, “you can’t do that”, there was a simple, basic understanding, we had Shabbos.
At one point, someone whom I later found out to be Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin got on the intercom and said that he spoke to the pilot, and that the pilot guaranteed we would get to the airport before Shabbos, and that he (Rabbi Sorotzkin) arranged for everyone to have a place and a meal for Shabbos if they did not have time get to where they needed since we would arrive only one hour before Shabbos.

Many of us, myself included did not sit down and expressed our desire to go back the gate.
At that point the captain came onto the intercom.  He told us we were going to go back to the gate as soon as everyone was seated.  And we all went back to our seats.
I can’t begin to describe the sinking feeling in my stomach as I saw the plane turn away from the terminals and face the runway.   In less than 6 minutes after telling us to return to our seats to go back to the gate, we were in the air. FY I- there was no Wifi on the flight which meant our only source of information for the rest of the flight was the El-Al crew.
Four hours into the flight the Captain announced that because of the “Cheiredim” the plane would stop in Athens.  At which point, all the people who want to get off for Shabbos can get off the plane first, and then, (and here is the kicker), all the people who want to continue to Israel will also have to get off the plane and go on a different plane from IsraAir to go to Israel.
What a shame… I wish El Al had announced the truth.  We were stopping in Athens because El-Al made a series of bad calls, and once they landed they could not depart on Shabbos which is why they needed an non El-Al plane to continue to Israel on Shabbos.
This only caused the internal tension to rise and as our only source of information was the crew, who were less than helpful and not at all sympathetic . To be very clear, no one was angry at the stewardesses, everyone understood that they did not make the decisions.  We were requesting to speak to the pilot or someone who can speak for the pilot. Again, there was no attempts to break into the cockpit, there were no physical altercations. Yes, there were some raised voices, but most of the time (I have the videos showing) it was secular Israeli passengers who came to yell at the passengers who were concerned about Shabbos that we were ruining their weekend. 

This in itself was absurd because we did not make the decision to stop in Athens and the majority of the religious passengers preferred that we continue to Israel and be stuck in the Tel Aviv airport.
As the minutes crept closer to our arrival into Athens there were discussions on the plane about whether it was halachically better to stay on the plane or to disembark in Athens.   We had no clue what to expect. Would we stay in the airport? Was there a hotel? What would we eat?
When they served breakfast I realized that the packaged egg which they served for breakfast and the half  a sandwich I had left from when I boarded the plane could very well be all we had to eat on Shabbos. I even put some nuts into my backpack for Shalosh Seudos.
When it was clear that we were landing in Athens and we would begin our descent we returned to our seats.  Many of us tried to separate our Muktza items and to make sure our Tallis and Siddur were easily accessible.
After the plane landed and we stopped we disembarked on one of those rollaway staircases to get onto one of several shuttles. I was one of the first people onto the shuttle and I watched as dozens of more Yidden came off the plane with no other thought than, to stay on the plane would be chillul Shabbos, and getting off the plane was the best chance of keeping Shabbos.   Chasidim got off the plane, men with black hats, colored shirts, in t-shirts, in suits, women with sheitels, snoods, no sheitels, in skirts, in pants; everyone coming off the plane was united in one thing – We believe in Hashem, and his Torah, and Shabbos was our gift and our inheritance and we would keep it.
As the first shuttle was full and started towards the airport (there were more shuttles behind us) everyone broke into a song for Shabbos Kodesh.
Once we got to the airport we were met by a women from El Al who was very sweet and took the time to explain to us that we were would be staying across the street (literally) at a hotel and they would take us as soon as the other shuttles arrive.
As they led us into the hotel it was very chaotic.  There were four hotel clerks and people started surging towards the front desk.  At that point, one Rabbi, whom I later learned was Rabbi Akiva Katz yelled above the crowd and explained to everyone that we would need to create orderly lines in order not to overwhelm the clerks.  He also let us know that they had set aside a place for davening and that Chabad had prepared food. This helped reduce the stress in the room and the process became more orderly as people were focused on getting to their rooms and ready for Shabbos in the 40 minutes we had left to Shkia.
Walking into Kabbalas Shabbos (I was late) was beautiful. The room was full of 60 or 70 men and about 10 women and everyone was singing.  Rabbi Jesse Horn from Yeshiva Ateres Kohanim led Kabbalas Shabbos. We were all so happy to be able to keep Shabbos, and the davening and level of simcha was very high. I think we must have danced four or five times during Kabbalas Shabbos and Maariv. 
After Kabbalas Shabbos we walked through the hotel to the dining area and I can tell you with 100% conviction that what I saw was beyond anything I could have imagined.
85% of the dining area was reserved for our Shabbos meal.  The tables were set beautifully with bottles of wine, grape juice and challah rolls.   Where the hotel usually displayed it’s salad bars, and assortment of cold meats it was now filled with platters of gefilte fish, 6 or 7 large bowls with a variety of salads and dips, it was as if this had planned for weeks in advance. There was plenty of fleish for the main course and an assortment of side dishes to accompany it.   
The Seudah was beautiful and everyone sang zemiros and niggunim and there were many Divrei Torah. Several people had stopped at the Duty free store to get bourbon and scotch for the Oilam, and it was very leibdige and the singing went on for quite a while
I woke up several times during the night as I was still on NY time and every time I went downstairs to the lobby there were people learning together or talking about the Parsha.
Shacharis was another beautiful davening and it was interesting to see how it was a mix of Nusach Sefard, Sefardi, Ashkenaz.
After davening several people went to the kitchen to help Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel (the Chabad Shluchim in Athens) prepare for seuda.
There were also two shiurim being given, one in Hebrew, and one in English by Rabbi Yossi Baumol.
After the Shiurim we went to the dining room where like the previous night there were copious amounts of delicious food, a wonderful meat kugel wrapped in pastry, brisket, a large assortment of salads.  Unlike the previous night, where everyone sat next to people who were closest to them hashkafically, the seating during the Shabbos day Seuda was heterogeneous. Chasidim sat and schmoozed with Tzionim, Modox sat with black hats… I only use these labels so you can visualize the seating, but there were no labels at this Seuda, we sat in true achdus.
The rest of Shabbos and the subsequent trip back to the airport and our return flight to Israel was unremarkable in that I don’t need to bore you with the details.
First I would like to thank the following people.
Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin who had the foresight before the plane took off to have his organization contact El-Al and Chabad and put pressure on to make this Shabbos happen.
Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel, the Chabad Rabbi and Rebbetzin based in Athens, Greece.  They got the call at 11am Friday morning and by 4pm that same afternoon they had prepared a beautiful  Shabbos for 150+ adults which was not lacing in anyway.
My 150+ new friends and passengers who gave me an experience and Shabbos I will never forget.
Now a quick note to to El-AL.  Hi El-Al, I don’t know who handles your marketing and social media program but you wasted a huge opportunity.  Next time this happens, here is what you do. You make sure you get the same hotel and that Chabad sets up a beautiful Shabbos.  You hire a Greek photographer and video guy, you video the amazing Shabbos – and then you promote it as an El-Al sponsored Shabbos Unity.   If you need more advice feel free to call or email me, or just send me some tickets as a thank you.
I would like to leave off with a few thoughts having just spent one of the most amazing Shabbos of my life.
1.     150+ Jews from all backgrounds and hashkafic orientations, wearing every outfit possible walked off a plane with one thought – We will keep Shabbos, even if it means sleeping in an airport.
2.  Unlike our Great Grandparents, who were fired if the did not work on Shabbos (USA), or where were ostracized, and possibly incarcerated for keeping Shabbos (USSR). How often do we get a chance to be moser nefesh for Shabbos?  This was a tremendous gift from Hashem to us that we had the chance to show Hashem how much we love him and his Torah, and we ALL took it.
3.     Every parent in that hotel who was not able to be home with their children that Shabbos taught their child a lesson that they could not have taught them in a 100 Shabbosim at home.   They showed that Shabbos means so much to Mommy, Tatty, Ima, Abba, etc that they would walk off a plane in the middle of a foreign country with no guaranty of food or a place to sleep. 
4.     Yom Tov in the Beis Hamikdash was probably like this Shabbos.   Jews from all over coming together for Hashem and his mitzvos.I hope to see all of my fellow passengers this Pesach bringing korbanos in the Beis Hamikdash.
May we be zoche to see Mashiach and the return of the Beis Hamikdash.

With much love
Ben Chafetz
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: thaber on November 17, 2018, 09:59:08 PM
That was nice to read. Thank you
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 17, 2018, 10:12:34 PM
IME people who are not Shomer Shabbos have no appreciation or understanding of what it means.
You really think that is fair?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: thaber on November 17, 2018, 10:21:51 PM
You really think that is fair?
It's true. May not be fair. But it's not zealotry as portrayed by the media. And people can't wrap their mind around that people would be willing to give up everything for shabbos
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 10:22:31 PM
Very nice read indeed. However, I am just wondering what they were thinking when

Quote
we started boarding at 8:30pm
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 17, 2018, 10:24:03 PM
https://hamodia.com/2018/11/17/really-happened-el-al-flight-002/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 17, 2018, 10:26:28 PM
It's true. May not be fair. But it's not zealotry as portrayed by the media. And people can't wrap their mind around that people would be willing to give up everything for shabbos
Some understand what Shabbos means. IMHO the problem is when your needs effects the needs/rights of others.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: thaber on November 17, 2018, 10:28:44 PM
Some understand what Shabbos means. IMHO the problem is when your needs effects the needs/rights of others.
I understand that. As did most sane people on the flight, which is why they asked to get off.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yitzgar on November 17, 2018, 10:29:08 PM
Some understand what Shabbos means. IMHO the problem is when your needs effects the needs/rights of others.
El Al isn't allowed to fly on shabbos. Nothing to do with the from passengers on this flight.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yitzgar on November 17, 2018, 10:29:27 PM
El Al isn't allowed to fly on shabbos. Nothing to do with the from passengers on this flight.
*frum
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Moshe123 on November 17, 2018, 10:30:39 PM
Dan, are you still waiting for El Al PR to clear your interview?

ElAl deserves to burn and go bankrupt and whatnot.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 17, 2018, 10:30:57 PM
El Al isn't allowed to fly on shabbos.
I wonder if regular passengers are aware of that.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yitzgar on November 17, 2018, 10:31:46 PM
I wonder if regular passengers are aware of that.
Very possibly not, hence the altercations described in the above post.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 10:31:53 PM
You really think that is fair?
You MIGHT be an exception, but overall I think my statement is accurate.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 10:33:00 PM
Very possibly Definitely not, hence the altercations described in the above post.
FTFY

Though I don't know that it would change anything as far as attitudes.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 17, 2018, 10:34:01 PM
Very possibly not, hence the altercations described in the above post.
It seems ElAl is doing a disservice to all passengers then.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 17, 2018, 10:34:39 PM
Though I don't know that it would change anything as far as attitudes.
To a reasonable/fair person it would.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yelped on November 17, 2018, 10:35:17 PM
It seems ElAl is doing a disservice to all passengers then.
Because as everyone here knows, they have dumb management. ;)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 17, 2018, 10:38:18 PM
Dan, waiting for the DDMS post, gotta clear up some #fakenews.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yitzgar on November 17, 2018, 10:39:42 PM
To a reasonable/fair person it would.
After the fact, yes, but in the heat of the moment, probably not. Plus, there is animosity towards chareidim (especially in Israel), partially from feelings of religious coercion. (Warranted or not)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mgarfin on November 17, 2018, 11:07:51 PM
Any confirmation of the pilot saying if they chareidim would sit he would go back to the gate?


There where 2 reporters on the flight. These articles qoute there FB post
http://m.ch10.co.il/news/469493/#.W_Dk9JBOk0N
http://www.kolhazman.co.il/350852
http://www.kolhazman.co.il/350862
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: SGF on November 17, 2018, 11:42:18 PM
El Al isn't allowed to fly on shabbos. Nothing to do with the from passengers on this flight.
If no one in the flight would say anything about Shabbos, they can land on the minute of sunset.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Million Miler on November 17, 2018, 11:46:45 PM
Quote
לכל זה התווספו גם מקרים מורכבים, כמו אישה חרדית שהארון קבורה של בעלה מוטס איתנו, ואם יגיע לארץ בשבת – חברת קדישא לא תוכל לאסוף את הארון;

This is an excerpt from a social media post by an ELAl Stewardess who was on the plane. Wow. That really sucks.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 17, 2018, 11:56:21 PM

To a reasonable/fair person it would.
The environment and emotions seem totally foreign to you.

The most likely result would be more anger and animosity that these people, through their political (never mind that it is also free-market economical) power, were able to bring the national carrier (and government) down on their knees, to agree to such terms.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 12:00:25 AM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/captain-el-als-flight-002-lied-tricked-passengers-time-realize-risks-taking-flights/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 12:05:56 AM
The environment and emotions seem totally foreign to you.

The most likely result would be more anger and animosity that these people, through their political (never mind that it is also free-market economical) power, were able to bring the national carrier (and government) down on their knees, to agree to such terms.
For some reason I get this a lot. Maybe I should read up on how Menachem Begin got the vote to pass to better understand?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 12:17:02 AM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/captain-el-als-flight-002-lied-tricked-passengers-time-realize-risks-taking-flights/
He didn't hold back.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 12:22:34 AM
He didn't hold back.
It was harsher. My wife had me tone the title and other parts down before publishing.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 12:27:22 AM
It was harsher. My wife had me tone the title and other parts down before publishing.
Feel free to PM me the original title.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 12:46:27 AM
It was harsher. My wife had me tone the title and other parts down before publishing.
But she didn't force you to have it proofread. Allowing some mistakes through.

In any event, do you think that if all Rabinical organizations would issue a ruling saying that it is forbidden to fly (transatlantic only?) on ELAL flights scheduled to land on Friday (or Erev Yomtov), it might make those flights uneconomical for ELAL?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: oldguy on November 18, 2018, 12:49:22 AM
But she didn't force you to have it proofread. Allowing some mistakes through.

In any event, do you think that if all Rabinical organizations would issue a ruling saying that it is forbidden to fly (transatlantic only?) on ELAL flights scheduled to land on Friday (or Erev Yomtov), it might make those flights uneconomical for ELAL?
IMO LY can deal with some flights not having religious passengers, the only reason the don't "officially" operate on Shabbos is because a total boycott of the religious, and that won't be worth it economically.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: 159dallas on November 18, 2018, 12:49:31 AM
It was harsher. My wife had me tone the title and other parts down before publishing.

You know what.... I doesn't matter toning it down doesn't seem to be working.... I would say that shocking some people may be a good idea at this point...
Title: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 12:55:16 AM
IMO LY can deal with some flights not having religious passengers, the only reason the don't "officially" operate on Shabbos is because a total boycott of the religious, and that won't be worth it economically.
They definitely do, as they fly on Motzoei Shabbos from EWR at times when it's impossible to make that flight without being mechallel Shabbos. (You might enjoy this (https://knesset.gov.il/tql/knesset_new/knesset11/HTML_27_03_2012_05-59-19-PM/19880720@19880720125@125.html) where the transportation minister suggests that if there was an Eruv people could start walking to the airport on Shabbos).

But if half the passengers flying on a Thursday would no longer do so (or even if it's 25%) they might consider redoing their schedule.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 12:59:59 AM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/captain-el-als-flight-002-lied-tricked-passengers-time-realize-risks-taking-flights/
Was late as I wanted to speak with someone on the flight to make sure I had the facts straight.
Title: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 01:04:23 AM
You know what.... I doesn't matter toning it down doesn't seem to be working.... I would say that shocking some people may be a good idea at this point...
+1

As long as it puts the facts the way they are (that ELAL doesn't care about Shabbos, and doesn't respect their paying customers, especially if they appear "chareidi"), and faults Shomrei Shabbos for booking/boarding those flights except in cases of true emergency.

On that note, while I am sure Rabbi Sorotzkin's intentions were good, wouldn't he have done better calling on everyone NOT TO BOARD THE FLIGHT, rather than taking steps to ensure that everyone can be accommodated for Shabbos wherever the plane might land?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 01:32:17 AM
It took 90 minutes until we finally hit the first drivel comment that I won't bother publishing. Not bad considering the post content.

(https://i.gyazo.com/f45c76e09b1e880b017815e76c085fcd.png)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 01:37:52 AM
It took 90 minutes until we finally hit the first drivel comment that I won't bother publishing. Not bad considering the post content.

(https://i.gyazo.com/f45c76e09b1e880b017815e76c085fcd.png)
Just weird
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:52:04 AM
What's the reason so many fly ElAl?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 01:57:50 AM
What's the reason so many fly ElAl?
1) It "feels" Jewish/Israeli, they speak Hebrew etc.
2) People think they have better security.
3) They have the most direct flights
4) A lot of times they're the cheapest.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 18, 2018, 01:58:29 AM
What's the reason so many fly ElAl?

There are numerou$ rea$on$ one would ¢hoo$e a $pecifi¢ air£ine, but the mo$t important fa¢tor con$idered by pa$$enger$ i$ pric€
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:58:58 AM
1) It "feels" Jewish/Israeli, they speak Hebrew etc.
2) People think they have better security.
3) They have the most direct flights
4) A lot of times they're the cheapest.
Makes sense.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 01:59:39 AM
There are numerou$ rea$on$ one would ¢hoo$e a $pecifi¢ air£ine, but the mo$t important fa¢tor con$idered by pa$$enger$ i$ pric€
What are you trying to say?  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mileagejunkie on November 18, 2018, 02:14:24 AM
FWD:

EL-AL SPONSORED SHABBOS OF UNITY

What a nice post!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Ergel on November 18, 2018, 02:20:36 AM
Pilot lying to the passengers is just unacceptable. Actually ridiculous. Full stop.

One thing to note, going back to the gate at 11:45 means the plane doesn't take off at all
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Ergel on November 18, 2018, 03:49:53 AM
@Dan you really wouldn't recommend the AC Thursday flight? What's the worst that could happen? If the flight is delayed >2 hours, you don't board. If it's less than that, even if you're stuck on the runway for three hours, you make it no problem.
Plus AC is not an operational mess like LY
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 18, 2018, 05:52:41 AM
In any event, do you think that if all Rabinical organizations would issue a ruling saying that it is forbidden to fly (transatlantic only?) on ELAL flights scheduled to land on Friday (or Erev Yomtov), it might make those flights uneconomical for ELAL?
And you think if Elal isn't mechalel shabbos, the employees will do less chilul shabbos at home?

Nobody claims Elal isn't Mechalel shabbos. Some consider it nice that they are respectful of shabbos enough not to blatantly fly on it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 06:44:57 AM
There are numerou$ rea$on$ one would ¢hoo$e a $pecifi¢ air£ine, but the mo$t important fa¢tor con$idered by pa$$enger$ i$ pric€
For the first half I was certain you were going to say service. I guess you're unpredictable.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 07:26:35 AM
It took 90 minutes until we finally hit the first drivel comment that I won't bother publishing. Not bad considering the post content.

(https://i.gyazo.com/f45c76e09b1e880b017815e76c085fcd.png)
I would have allowed it and published a response that includes a recording of an authentic Yemenite pronunciation.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 07:43:55 AM
https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001260983

I don't think he's right and that this flight will make it happen, though I really wish ELAL finally feels the real pain as a result of customer abuse.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yaalili on November 18, 2018, 08:15:12 AM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-flight-shabbat-violence/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 08:19:39 AM
For some reason I get this a lot. Maybe I should read up on how Menachem Begin got the vote to pass to better understand?
Sorry I don't have time to translate for you. But since the State of Israel is officially governed by a parliamentary system, it leads to the forming of coalitions, with various commitments to the participating parties.

Here's the agreement regarding ELAL not flying on Shabbos: https://main.knesset.gov.il/mk/government/documents/cagreement19.pdf
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: jose34 on November 18, 2018, 08:20:54 AM
FWD:

EL-AL SPONSORED SHABBOS OF UNITY

This Shabbos I had the tremendous privilege to be a part of something amazing, beautiful and enlightening. I am hoping El Al will see this and understand that there is a much better headline than the false headline “Haredim Riot On Plane” which I currently see online.   
.....
Walking into Kabbalas Shabbos (I was late) was beautiful. The room was full of 60 or 70 men and about 10 women and everyone was singing.  Rabbi ......
After Kabbalas Shabbos we walked through the hotel to the dining area and I can tell you with 100% conviction that what I saw was beyond anything I could have imagined.
.....
The Seudah was beautiful and everyone sang zemiros and niggunim and there were many Divrei Torah....
Shacharis was another beautiful davening and it was interesting to see how it was a mix of Nusach Sefard, Sefardi, Ashkenaz.
......
First I would like to thank the following people.
Rabbi Shalom Ber Sorotzkin who had the foresight before the plane took off to have his organization contact El-Al and Chabad and put pressure on to make this Shabbos happen.
Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel, the Chabad Rabbi and Rebbetzin based in Athens, Greece.  They got the call at 11am Friday morning and by 4pm that same afternoon they had prepared a beautiful  Shabbos for 150+ adults which was not lacing in anyway.
My 150+ new friends and passengers who gave me an experience and Shabbos I will never forget.

With much love
Ben Chafetz


Thank you for writing such  a wonderful piece.
In my opinion this is the only piece that needs to be written about the wonderful unity that exists and the wanting of everyone to keep Shabbos plus how Rabbi and Rebbetzin Hendel put together such a beautiful shabbos.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Abey on November 18, 2018, 08:33:19 AM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-flight-shabbat-violence/
As someone once commented on his blog “don’t expect decent reporting from a youngster flying around first class his whole day״
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 08:34:09 AM
@Dan you really wouldn't recommend the AC Thursday flight? What's the worst that could happen? If the flight is delayed >2 hours, you don't board. If it's less than that, even if you're stuck on the runway for three hours, you make it no problem.
Plus AC is not an operational mess like LY
Not in the winter.

My calculus has changed after being stuck on the plane to my Zayde's 90th.

Even after allowing for a 2 hour delay and 3.5 hours on the runway like El Al, you can still be forced to fly.

The margin of error has to be 8+ hours I think, unless there are extenuating circumstances.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 08:34:44 AM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-flight-shabbat-violence/
He fell for the anti charedi scam. Sad.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Abey on November 18, 2018, 08:40:24 AM
He fell for the anti charedi scam. Sad.
He has a preconceived opinion against religious people since he is gay... although he tries to hide it (usually) on his blog, it seeps thru whenever he writes about anything religious
Title: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Abey on November 18, 2018, 08:46:00 AM
I do want to raise 1 point, that Ben chafetz guy sat in j so he might’ve not heard/seen the shouts/violence occurring
Especially on a 747
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 08:49:37 AM
He fell for the anti charedi scam. Sad.
He does have accounts from two passengers who had different perspectives. Is it possible we don't know the true/full story yet?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 18, 2018, 09:14:57 AM
someone donated for the beit chabad $72,000 to built a mikveh
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mgarfin on November 18, 2018, 09:16:47 AM
He does have accounts from two passengers who had different perspectives. Is it possible we don't know the true/full story yet?
I find accounts from 2 non chardi news reports that happened to be on the flight the most accurate.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yaalili on November 18, 2018, 09:21:48 AM
someone donated for the beit chabad $72,000 to built a mikveh

Wow!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Zevi16 on November 18, 2018, 09:29:35 AM
someone donated for the beit chabad $72,000 to built a mikveh
Everything is the Yad Hashem. This time maybe God is letting us see parts of the plan.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 09:36:12 AM
someone donated for the beit chabad $72,000 to built a mikveh
Wow. Source?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mikebg on November 18, 2018, 09:46:39 AM
I find accounts from 2 non chardi news reports that happened to be on the flight the most accurate.
There are also reports from totally secular passengers who were on the flights which corroborate the "chareidi" versions.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: rs242 on November 18, 2018, 10:19:56 AM
What happen to the frum Jews that’s landed in Israel after Shabbat started? Did they spend shobbas on the plane?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: travel agent on November 18, 2018, 10:31:57 AM
Wow. Source?
http://www.bhol.co.il/news/954274
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: good sam on November 18, 2018, 10:41:22 AM
Wow. Source?
If you consider whatsapp a source:

"Just learned something that I don't think has been reported yet: They auctioned the aliyas and raised over $15,000 which they donated to build a Mikva in Athens!"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 18, 2018, 10:48:54 AM
@Mods - maybe move the current posts from https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=93309.200 to this thread
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 11:52:21 AM
someone donated for the beit chabad $72,000 to built a mikveh
http://col.org.il/%D7%97%D7%93%D7%A9%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%97%D7%91%D7%93_%D7%9B%D7%9A_%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95_%D7%90%D7%AA_%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A2%D7%99_%D7%A2%D7%9C%D7%A2%D7%9C_%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%97_%D7%97%D7%91%D7%93_%D7%91%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94_%D7%9E%D7%A1%D7%A4%D7%A8_114531.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 01:44:40 PM
Here you have the INTENTIONAL lie!
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/captain-el-als-flight-002-lied-tricked-passengers-time-realize-risks-taking-flights/#comment-1383628

Can someone post the recording from ATC?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 18, 2018, 01:48:02 PM
Wow. Source?
I know Rabbi Derli personally, I can verify this for you if you like.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 01:50:29 PM
Here you have the INTENTIONAL lie!
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/captain-el-als-flight-002-lied-tricked-passengers-time-realize-risks-taking-flights/#comment-1383628

Can someone post the recording from ATC?

Is anyone naïve enough to believe that the ELAL captain didn't intentionally and deliberately lie? I have a couple of bridges to sell to anyone that qualifies.

I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it. They have a corporate DNA/culture problem of how they view and treat their most valuable asset - the paying passengers. When that's your corporate culture, all means are acceptable in order to get your customers to comply with what you decide is right.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 01:51:39 PM
Is anyone naïve enough to believe that the ELAL captain didn't intentionally and deliberately lie? I have a couple of bridges to sell to anyone that qualifies.

I've said it before and I'll keep on saying it. They have a corporate DNA/culture problem of how they view and treat their most valuable asset - the paying passengers. When that's your corporate culture, all means are acceptable in order to gets your customers to comply with what you decide is right.
@ChaimMoskowitz ?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 01:52:11 PM
@ChaimMoskowitz ?

He's buying bridges today?

It's 2 foot-bridges, one from ATH, the other from FCO that lead directly to the heart of Jerusalem, with a 100% kosher Eruv (as per the proposed solution of R' Chaim Korfu to R' Avrum Shapiro), along with a crew of Shabbos Bell Boys, all with optional off-ramps to Kfar Chabad, Bnei-Brak, Beit-Shemesh (multiple ramps for B.S.), and even a scenic one to Tzfas.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: 12HRS on November 18, 2018, 01:53:14 PM
He's buying bridges today?

He doesn't want to have to pay tolls when he comes to ny
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: zagguru on November 18, 2018, 01:54:16 PM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-flight-shabbat-violence/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 02:07:07 PM
@ChaimMoskowitz ?
I will give him the benefit until the facts come out.
Then if it comes out he did lie on purpose I will pivot to what should he have done to get the unsafe situation resolved?  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 02:08:02 PM
He doesn't want to have to pay tolls when he comes to ny
#Fakenews  :)
I just want to be able to use my I-Pass.  :P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 02:16:58 PM
I will give him the benefit until the facts come out.

CM must be a gilgul of either R' Akiva or R' Tarfon (https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%96_%D7%90).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 02:23:51 PM
CM must be a gilgul of either R' Akiva or R' Tarfon (https://he.wikisource.org/wiki/%D7%9E%D7%9B%D7%95%D7%AA_%D7%96_%D7%90).
I think you have me confused with someone else.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 02:29:57 PM
I think you have me confused with someone else.

Nope. If that link didn't work for you, try this one (https://www.sefaria.org/Makkot.7a.1-13?lang=bi).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chinagel on November 18, 2018, 02:30:47 PM
interesting how people believe chareidim wont sit next to women, yet they have no problem beating them up
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 02:32:08 PM
Nope. If that link didn't work for you, try this one (https://www.sefaria.org/Makkot.7a.1-13?lang=bi).
I thought you were talking about reincarnation. That link is about loans.  ???
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yitzgar on November 18, 2018, 02:32:11 PM
interesting how chareidim wont sit next to women, yet they have no problem beating them up
Because you know of someone who won't sit next to women, yet beat a woman up?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chinagel on November 18, 2018, 02:33:23 PM
Because you know of someone who won't sit next to women, yet beat a woman up?
see edit
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 02:34:26 PM
interesting how people believe chareidim wont sit next to women, yet they have no problem beating them up
OUCH!!! Where did this come from?  :o
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 02:41:20 PM
I thought you were talking about reincarnation. That link is about loans.  ???
It's about refusing to judge until we get 100% unequivocal evidence to an unrealistic degree. You need to scroll down a bit. Since you will be buying a couple of bridges from me, I've decided to treat you with customer appreciation and spoon feed you with an English translation, rather than have you toil and try to figure out what it's about.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 03:02:06 PM
It's about refusing to judge until we get 100% unequivocal evidence to an unrealistic degree.
That has nothing to do with this situation. It is very plausible he intended to return to the gate and then was given instructions not to.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 03:03:05 PM
That has nothing to do with this situation. It is very plausible he intended to return to the gate and then was given instructions not to.
Not according to ATC recording
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 03:05:35 PM
Not according to ATC recording
Link? That would end the speculation.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 03:07:21 PM
That has nothing to do with this situation. It is very plausible he intended to return to the gate and then was given instructions not to.
Given instructions by whom?

And instructed to keep passengers misinformed?

Let's schedule the closing on those bridges I have for sale, before you miss out on today's pre-Black Friday sale.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 03:08:07 PM
Link? That would end the speculation.
I linked to the comment on DDMS above. I don't know how to get it myself, if anyone knows how to use live.atc, please post.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 03:09:03 PM
Given instructions by whom?
Who do you think? Maybe you need to buy your own bridges.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 03:09:09 PM
I have the audio. I'm comfortable saying that the pilot is a liar.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 03:13:02 PM
I have the audio. I'm comfortable saying that the pilot is a liar.
Can you link to it?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 03:16:31 PM
I have the audio. I'm comfortable saying that the pilot is a liar.

https://youtu.be/j4XT-l-_3y0
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 03:30:01 PM
I linked to the comment on DDMS above. I don't know how to get it myself, if anyone knows how to use live.atc, please post.
I guess you might find it here if the times on the DDMS comment is correct http://archive-server.liveatc.net/kjfk/JFK-ARINC-Nov-15-2018-2300Z.mp3
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 04:05:52 PM
Can you link to it?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 18, 2018, 04:22:55 PM
Elal: Elal 002 we'd appreciate to depart as soon as possible, otherwise the passengers will continue making problems - does the controller laugh when he said this?




Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 04:55:32 PM
ATC clearly gave him the option to return to the gate.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 18, 2018, 04:56:11 PM
ATC clearly gave him the choice to return to the gate.
Nothing special, aircraft are always allowed to return to the gate if they wish
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 04:57:05 PM
Nothing special, aircraft are always allowed to return to the gate if they wish
Thought so, I'm just pointing out to those that think they didn't let him.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 18, 2018, 05:01:27 PM
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/please-explain-i-dont-understand-how-you-are-all-so-happy-and-singing/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 18, 2018, 05:07:00 PM
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/10-lessons-from-the-el-al-flight-to-athens/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 05:07:21 PM
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/please-explain-i-dont-understand-how-you-are-all-so-happy-and-singing/
Quote
tape over or put toilet paper in the tab that the latch of the door fits into, or put a towel over the door, and make sure your valuables are in the safe
A shame he doesn't know about the gartel trick  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 18, 2018, 05:12:43 PM
https://blogs.timesofisrael.com/please-explain-i-dont-understand-how-you-are-all-so-happy-and-singing/
I have to say well written
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 05:15:58 PM
A shame he doesn't know about the gartel trick  :)
#fakejews
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 18, 2018, 05:48:00 PM

This video is unavailable.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 05:49:32 PM
This video is unavailable.
@Chaikel found more audio that changes things. Working on it now.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 18, 2018, 05:55:33 PM
He kept saying LY008 instead of 002 before correcting himself, hope he wasn't drunk.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ual902 on November 18, 2018, 06:02:19 PM
The ATC video is not available, did ELAL have Youtube take it down?!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: grodnoking on November 18, 2018, 06:02:53 PM
The ATC video is not available, did ELAL have Youtube take it down?!
.
@Chaikel found more audio that changes things. Working on it now.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 06:03:38 PM


@Chaikel

Who's that? ;)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 06:38:25 PM

Who's that? ;)
The guy who keeps deleting my posts!  :P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 06:49:44 PM
The guy who keeps deleting my posts! 
That may be why we dont see him, it's a full time job!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YesThatsMe on November 18, 2018, 06:51:02 PM
http://www.bhol.co.il/news/954394

Omet Chadad, a rising star in the Israeli law scene, will be representing Sholom Ber Sorotzkin and other passengers in a suit against ElAl. This guy is from Yankel Weinrot's office. He successfully defended Moshe Montag (Deputy Mayor of Bet Shemesh) in a very complicated bribery case. He handled Yitzchak Pindrus (Deputy Mayor of Jerusalem) appeal to run for Mayor of Elad, but unfortunately lost in Bagatz. He is known as the sharpest mind in Israeli civil law today, inheriting Yankel's stellar reputation.

ElAl freaks out, and asks for a meeting so a settlement can be reached before he drags them through court and causes a government level scandal (the Chareidim are currently the swing members in Netanyahu's shaky government after Lieberman's resignation).

And this is after ElAl themselves threatened legal action against "certain violent passengers"!

This story is shaking the transportation ministry, while Sholom Ber has sworn revenge for being fooled into announcing on the plane that they will land before Shabbos. This is far from over....
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 06:54:06 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/el-al-invent-charedi-violence-shift-blame-away-airlines-mistakes-plus-listen-air-traffic-control-audio-el-al-receives-permission-return-gate/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 06:57:10 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/el-al-invent-charedi-violence-shift-blame-away-airlines-mistakes-plus-listen-air-traffic-control-audio-el-al-receives-permission-return-gate/
You didn't say what heavy is ;)
Can we hear this ATC recording somewhere?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 18, 2018, 06:58:34 PM
Can we hear this ATC recording somewhere?
It's in the post.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 07:00:16 PM
It's in the post.
I see now. I skimmed through the first half because I already read it...
Ironically I went to YouTube to see if it's there, and I'm listening to it now on Dansdeals YouTube page ;)
ETA: I wish we had Steve on ATC :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 18, 2018, 07:03:32 PM
I am not a Rav and I can't pasken.
But I do have a question which i wonna understand.

There is an halacha about traveling on a boat shabbos and when to embark and what to do if it's arriving on shabbos.
Now,  you can argue that a plane is similar to a boat, since there is no extra work done per passenger,  and that that the pilot is a Jew,  it's definitely not a de'orisa since he is anyway mechalel shabbos for himself,  and I can argue that it's even less problematic then using electric in Israel for shabbos as the workers are doing it for the Jewish people,  but flying a plane is the same work as for 1 person as for 300 people.
Now if someone is on a plane which was scheduled to arrive 3 hours before shabbos, you can argue it's equivalent as embarking on a ship on Wednesday 2000 years ago,  which was clearly allowed.
It would be much easier and more cost effective for elal to have a plane in such a situation as this week to land in Israel and park by the gate and let the passengers spend the shabbos on the plane,  as leaving the plane will be a problem with Techum.
They can even have a rav and food brought from the airport since for someone who is erev shabbos at the airport is allowed to enter the plane.
Again this is in case of emergency.
Again I am not a Rav,  just for curiosity it's interesting having the discussion and maybe some Talmud chacham can contribute to it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 18, 2018, 07:05:17 PM
Any info on this pilot? Many pilots would take any opportunity to fly the queen...;)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 07:11:57 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/el-al-invent-charedi-violence-shift-blame-away-airlines-mistakes-plus-listen-air-traffic-control-audio-el-al-receives-permission-return-gate/
Waiting for the third edition.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yochai on November 18, 2018, 07:30:10 PM
I am not a Rav and I can't pasken.
But I do have a question which i wonna understand.

There is an halacha about traveling on a boat shabbos and when to embark and what to do if it's arriving on shabbos.
Now,  you can argue that a plane is similar to a boat, since there is no extra work done per passenger,  and that that the pilot is a Jew,  it's definitely not a de'orisa since he is anyway mechalel shabbos for himself,  and I can argue that it's even less problematic then using electric in Israel for shabbos as the workers are doing it for the Jewish people,  but flying a plane is the same work as for 1 person as for 300 people.
Now if someone is on a plane which was scheduled to arrive 3 hours before shabbos, you can argue it's equivalent as embarking on a ship on Wednesday 2000 years ago,  which was clearly allowed.
It would be much easier and more cost effective for elal to have a plane in such a situation as this week to land in Israel and park by the gate and let the passengers spend the shabbos on the plane,  as leaving the plane will be a problem with Techum.
They can even have a rav and food brought from the airport since for someone who is erev shabbos at the airport is allowed to enter the plane.
Again this is in case of emergency.
Again I am not a Rav,  just for curiosity it's interesting having the discussion and maybe some Talmud chacham can contribute to it.
All true if the pilot and majority of the passengers hadn’t been Jewish. Now that they are, you cannot allow a Jew (or non Jew, if most passengers are Jewish) to do a melacha for you or enjoy it after he did it, even if he was doing it anyway.
I’m not a rav either, but had the pilot flown into shabbos, there may be a problem leaving the airport till Sunday afternoon (כדי שיעשו) in order not to benefit from the חילול שבת. (Besides the fact that ElAl can’t fly on shabbos even if they wanted to, due to a signed contract with a very large fine if they break it)
There actually was a case where r moshe Zt”l allowed someone to fly on a non Jewish airline arriving on shabbos and stay in the airport till after shabbos. (Was for a חולה but not פיקוח נפש.)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 18, 2018, 08:00:51 PM
Wow. Source?
I just verified with Rabbi Derli himself, this is 100% accurate. He has taken upon himself to raise the full amount needed for the Mikva.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YesThatsMe on November 18, 2018, 08:03:14 PM
Who do you think? Maybe you need to buy your own bridges.

Well, either the pilot or Corp made the decision. Does it matter who exactly? No. The law of God was Broken. The law of Israel was broken. A group of 70+ passengers representing 15% of Israeli society was thoroughly besmirched in the Israeli and Global media. But CM, you came today to buy some bridges.

CM, I have no idea who you are or what your background is. I can only surmise that you are Jewish and was/is observant to some level.

We Chareidim do not impose the Torah on anyone in Israel or the diaspora. If a Jew decides to turn on his TV at home on Shabbos, then we can only ache, but that is between him and the Ribbono Shel Olam.

But, as inscribed in the laws of the democratically elected secular state, the Shabbos is a national day of rest. The elected government of the people has decided that the airline of the flag must keep this day of rest in a manner which appeases the chief rabbis and the religious courts.

(How can Israeli society expect the chareidim to heed the yet-unwritten-IDF-draft-law, while they are silent about ElAl breaking the law?)

CM, many American Jews can trace back 2-3-4 generations to the grandparent on the Lower East Side who was fired every Monday for not desecrating the holy Shabbos. Many recount annually at the Seder Table the story of a patriarch or matriarch who managed to keep one Shabbos or more during the harsh years of Hitlers Ghettos or Stalins Gulag. Many DDF'ers have spent years and even lifetimes handing out Shabbos Candles and making Kiddush in old age homes, hospitals and the countless Chabad houses that dot the globe. Shabbos, at least to 95% of the readers of these forums, is the single most important aspect of our lives.

Does it not bother you, deep down, CM, that the only country in the world today which does not respect the holy Shabbos is the "Jewish" state of Israel?

Does it not bother you, deep down, CM, that the only group opposed to the Shabbos today are our fellow (secular) Jews drinking Kool-Aid and buying bridges?

Did you have an ancestor who cared about the holy Shabbos? Who sacrificed something for it?

We don't ask for anything from the Jew haters in our midst. Go and transgress 612 of God's commandments, and do so in your own conscience. But never, for no reason, should you trample the holy Shabbos in public, the most recognizable bond between Jew and his creator.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 18, 2018, 08:14:09 PM
All true if the pilot and majority of the passengers hadn’t been Jewish. Now that they are, you cannot allow a Jew (or non Jew, if most passengers are Jewish) to do a melacha for you or enjoy it after he did it, even if he was doing it anyway.
I’m not a rav either, but had the pilot flown into shabbos, there may be a problem leaving the airport till Sunday afternoon (כדי שיעשו) in order not to benefit from the חילול שבת. (Besides the fact that ElAl can’t fly on shabbos even if they wanted to, due to a signed contract with a very large fine if they break it)
There actually was a case where r moshe Zt”l allowed someone to fly on a non Jewish airline arriving on shabbos and stay in the airport till after shabbos. (Was for a חולה but not פיקוח נפש.)
I guess waiting on the plane is probably easier halachically than waiting in the airport.  Regarding בכדי שיעשו, I think they would only had to wait whatever they flew in shabbos which is probably just an hour.
You can argue here that the pilot is a mechalel shabbos for himself, as he will anyway do it. Why are a lot of people in Israel not so makpid on the use of electric on shabbos which I think it is more chilul shabbos involved and done more frequently as a one time emergency.
I am quite positive that whatever elal will have to pay for the fine it's still a fraction of what it cost them the past week.
As you quoted Reb Moshe, was that a לכתחילה לצורך חולה meaning the person knew before reserving that he will arrive on shabbos but due to צורך חולה it was OK or was it a combination delay and a צורך חולה?
Again I am not a Rav. Also we are not talking here לכתחילה as it would be costly for elal to have to prepare food and other logistics through shabbos, plus they won't be able to prepare the aircraft for the moitzai shabbos flight and it will have to be delayed for a few hours.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 18, 2018, 08:14:17 PM
I just verified with Rabbi Derli himself, this is 100% accurate. He has taken upon himself to raise the full amount needed for the Mikva.
To be more precise: He has taken upon himself to raise the "missing" funds, as many that were there for that Shabbos donated generously.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 08:14:59 PM
CM, I have no idea who you are or what your background is. I can only surmise that you are Jewish and was/is observant to some level.
Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 08:21:32 PM
Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.
Do you consider the facts to be known at this point.

I am just a couple of months away from celebrating 19 years of refusing to fly ELAL due to their lies and attitude towards passengers (especially if they look "chareidi").
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Lou Bob on November 18, 2018, 08:26:25 PM
Do you consider the facts to be know at this point.

I am just a couple of months away from celebrating 19 years of refusing to fly ELAL due to their lies and attitude towards passengers (especially if they look "chareidi").
how do you plan to celebrate this special occasion?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 08:27:44 PM
how do you plan to celebrate this special occasion?
By flying a different airline.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 08:27:58 PM
Do you consider the facts to be know at this point.
Actually it is now up in the air. According to Dan's last DDMS post he asked permission to return to the gate. What changed? Did he get instructions from higher up not to return to the gate and take off? Did he just say ****** and took off?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 18, 2018, 08:32:32 PM
Another point which can be argued, if we are responsible for the chilul shabbos for other secular Jews, maybe it would have been better to fly to TLV and avoid the chilul shabbos from additional take off and landing. שב ואל תעשה.
Maybe you can argue that a plane on auto pilot cruising 35000 ft is not really chilul shabbos as the pilots normally don't do much, unless it's an emergency.
Elal can even arrange to have a non Jewish pilot take over right after it lands taking it to the gate.
Just asking for the sake of limud.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 08:33:29 PM
Actually it is now up in the air. According to Dan's last DDMS post he asked permission to return to the gate. What changed? Did he get instructions from higher up not to return to the gate and take off? Did he just say ****** and took off?
If it were any other airline, I would say he likely got instructions from operations (which doesn't change the fact that he lied). But given the well known arrogance of ELAL captains, I don't put it beyond possible that this was his own decision. I don't know. And as HRC would have said, what difference does it make at this point?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 08:37:53 PM
If it were any other airline, I would say he likely got instructions from ELAL operations (which doesn't change the fact that he lied). But given the well known arrogance of ELAL captains, I don't put it beyond possible that this was his own decision. I don't know. And as HRC would have said, what difference does it make at this point?
All I said from the beginning is Dan should have worded it differently.
You trying to prove my point by using HRC? She was wrong then and still is wrong.  ;)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Lou Bob on November 18, 2018, 08:40:06 PM
All I said from the beginning is Dan should have worded it differently.
You trying to prove my point by using HRC? She was wrong then and still is wrong.  ;)
wrong thread :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 08:48:46 PM
wrong thread :)
Tell that to the other guy that mentioned ***.  :P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 08:58:26 PM
Tell that to the other guy that mentioned ***.  :P

She was only mentioned in order to give credit for the famous line (just like her husband was for his famous line).

After all don't we learn in Megillah 15a: "And Rabbi Elazar further said that Rabbi Ḥanina said: Whoever reports a saying in the name of he who said it brings redemption to the world. As it is stated with respect to the incident of Bigthan and Teresh: “And Esther reported it to the king in the name of Mordecai” (Esther 2:22), and this eventually brought redemption, as Mordecai was later rewarded for saving the king’s life, paving the way for the miraculous salvation."
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yochai on November 18, 2018, 08:59:42 PM
I guess waiting on the plane is probably easier halachically than waiting in the airport.  Regarding בכדי שיעשו, I think they would only had to wait whatever they flew in shabbos which is probably just an hour.
You can argue here that the pilot is a mechalel shabbos for himself, as he will anyway do it. Why are a lot of people in Israel not so makpid on the use of electric on shabbos which I think it is more chilul shabbos involved and done more frequently as a one time emergency.
I am quite positive that whatever elal will have to pay for the fine it's still a fraction of what it cost them the past week.
As you quoted Reb Moshe, was that a לכתחילה לצורך חולה meaning the person knew before reserving that he will arrive on shabbos but due to צורך חולה it was OK or was it a combination delay and a צורך חולה?
Again I am not a Rav. Also we are not talking here לכתחילה as it would be costly for elal to have to prepare food and other logistics through shabbos, plus they won't be able to prepare the aircraft for the moitzai shabbos flight and it will have to be delayed for a few hours.
The only heter for using electricity in Israel on shabbos is because they are doing it for חולים and cases of פיקוח נפש. Not the fact they are doing it anyway. If only your building was cut off and the electric company came to fix it on shabbos, לכולי עלמא you couldn’t use it or enjoy it.
I’m not sure the exact amount of the fine. I definitely know the contract was made so it should never be worthwhile for them to fly on shabbos. (Otherwise they would’ve continued to TLV. They don’t love us so much to put everyone up in ATH just for PR)
The psak from R’ Moshe was for someone who’s father was sick in South Africa and he was needed there to help. R’ Moshe allowed him to board a Friday flight, arriving shabbos, in order for him to be available immediately after.
Your example from the boat doesn’t have to go back 2000 years. Any of our ancestors who came from Europe traveled more then a week by boat.
I suggest we keep halachic discussions low if we don’t want mods to get upset.😉
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yochai on November 18, 2018, 09:02:34 PM
Another point which can be argued, if we are responsible for the chilul shabbos for other secular Jews, maybe it would have been better to fly to TLV and avoid the chilul shabbos from additional take off and landing. שב ואל תעשה.
Maybe you can argue that a plane on auto pilot cruising 35000 ft is not really chilul shabbos as the pilots normally don't do much, unless it's an emergency.
Elal can even arrange to have a non Jewish pilot take over right after it lands taking it to the gate.
Just asking for the sake of limud.
a person is not obligated to try to lessen the חילול שבת of a מחלל שבת במזיד as long as he’s not doing it for you. PM me if you want sources for this.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YesThatsMe on November 18, 2018, 10:16:33 PM
Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.

My sincerest apologies! What kind of name is Chaim Moskowitz for a Catholic boy? And you sure do know a lot about Chareidi Judaism!

Regarding the "lie" I don't think that's the issue, as someone at ElAl (maybe pilot, maybe corp) decided to screw all the religious passengers.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 18, 2018, 10:25:17 PM
My sincerest apologies! What kind of name is Chaim Moskowitz for a Catholic boy? And you sure do know a lot about Chareidi Judaism!
No apologies needed. My name was given to me by a member who shall remain nameless.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yitzgar on November 18, 2018, 10:32:52 PM
No apologies needed. My name was given to me by a member who shall remain nameless.  :)
Can't give out all the secrets in one thread.....
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 18, 2018, 10:41:26 PM
TheMarker.com has an article by Assaf Shmueli, who specializes in internet and digital media PR and crises management. Squarely blaming ELAL for not managing their PR and crises well. Leaving many gaps that he says are what triggers crises.

https://www.themarker.com/amp/blogs/assafshmueli/BLOG-1.6660233
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chinagel on November 18, 2018, 11:08:54 PM
No apologies needed. My name was given to me by a member who shall remain nameless.  :)
paging @TimT
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 18, 2018, 11:32:06 PM
The only heter for using electricity in Israel on shabbos is because they are doing it for חולים and cases of פיקוח נפש. Not the fact they are doing it anyway. If only your building was cut off and the electric company came to fix it on shabbos, לכולי עלמא you couldn’t use it or enjoy it.
I’m not sure the exact amount of the fine. I definitely know the contract was made so it should never be worthwhile for them to fly on shabbos. (Otherwise they would’ve continued to TLV. They don’t love us so much to put everyone up in ATH just for PR)
The psak from R’ Moshe was for someone who’s father was sick in South Africa and he was needed there to help. R’ Moshe allowed him to board a Friday flight, arriving shabbos, in order for him to be available immediately after.
Your example from the boat doesn’t have to go back 2000 years. Any of our ancestors who came from Europe traveled more then a week by boat.
I suggest we keep halachic discussions low if we don’t want mods to get upset.😉
I wonna stress again I am not a Rav or even a Talmud chacham.
From the story from Reb Moshe,  I think we can see that it is not a deoirasa, to fly on a plane when you depart before shabbos, if it would have been I doubt he would have been ruling the person should do it as it was not פיקוח נפש.
But again, I might be wrong with my pshetel.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yochai on November 19, 2018, 12:27:46 AM
I wonna stress again I am not a Rav or even a Talmud chacham.
From the story from Reb Moshe,  I think we can see that it is not a deoirasa, to fly on a plane when you depart before shabbos, if it would have been I doubt he would have been ruling the person should do it as it was not פיקוח נפש.
But again, I might be wrong with my pshetel.
100%. Probably not even a derabanan. But only if the pilot isn’t Jewish!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deals dealer on November 19, 2018, 12:32:05 AM
Jerusalem Post mentioning DansDeals..

https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/We-were-kidnapped-by-El-Al-say-passengers-on-horror-flight-from-New-York-572234
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 19, 2018, 01:11:00 AM
100%. Probably not even a derabanan. But only if the pilot isn’t Jewish!
What does it make a difference in halacha for the frum yiden what the pilot is? It's not like they are asking him anything to do. As per his chilul shabbos since when do most frum yidden go out and protest every week on Jerusalem. We can also see plenty frum yidden riding the light rail or buses moitzai shabbos and we all know that it was chilul shabbos involved in order to operate so close to shabbos.
I understand they would have to wait בכדי שיעשו.
How about another solution,  why can't elal have non Jewish pilots, at least one out of the 3 pilots on a 747, especially if they see it can run into problems. I am sure there are druze or Israeli Arabs pilots, or even have a list from the US for available pilots for an emergency like the past shabbos.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 19, 2018, 01:46:55 AM
Another point, as per what I read, if the plane would have continue straight to Tel Aviv it would have arrived 15-20 after sunset. Now I do understand that all yiden accepted that shabbos is starting by sunset, however I know for a fact that in the US, for example the Satmar rabanim in case of a semi emergency, like unforeseen traffic and instead of being stranded for shabbos they rule that in such a case you have till about 20 min after sunset.
My whole point of the questions is that this whole chilul shabbos avoidance is more like a nationalistic feeling. Fact is because the plane diverted to ATH it was caused double chilul shabbos deoirasa for other secular Jews with no שיטה להיתר. One for elal and for arkia. They all knew that it would happen. Non of the frum yidden had any הוה אמינא that all secular Jews together with the crew will stay in ATH. Had they agreed to continue to TLV they could avoid that,  and they would not be in violation of any deoirasa or even derabanan.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Ergel on November 19, 2018, 01:51:20 AM
Thank you Dan for using your voice for good and standing up for truth in the face of anti charedi propaganda
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 19, 2018, 02:25:27 AM
Maybe this whole Tesla thing happened just so the world can see the other side of this story...
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Redbull3 on November 19, 2018, 02:59:31 AM
Take a deep breath. First I am Catholic. Second I am in no way shape or form disrespecting your Shabbos. All I am pointing out is before calling the pilot a liar the facts should be known.
this is hilarious every time this happens
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Redbull3 on November 19, 2018, 03:00:17 AM
Thank you Dan for using your voice for good and standing up for truth in the face of anti charedi propaganda
hear hear! Great article and a worthy topic for ddms, even if it’s not a deal.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: grodnoking on November 19, 2018, 03:22:22 AM
Another point, as per what I read, if the plane would have continue straight to Tel Aviv it would have arrived 15-20 after sunset. Now I do understand that all yiden accepted that shabbos is starting by sunset, however I know for a fact that in the US, for example the Satmar rabanim in case of a semi emergency, like unforeseen traffic and instead of being stranded for shabbos they rule that in such a case you have till about 20 min after sunset.
My whole point of the questions is that this whole chilul shabbos avoidance is more like a nationalistic feeling. Fact is because the plane diverted to ATH it was caused double chilul shabbos deoirasa for other secular Jews with no שיטה להיתר. One for elal and for arkia. They all knew that it would happen. Non of the frum yidden had any הוה אמינא that all secular Jews together with the crew will stay in ATH. Had they agreed to continue to TLV they could avoid that,  and they would not be in violation of any deoirasa or even derabanan.
In Israel that time is closer to 4 minutes due to how fast the sun sets here, so even if you held something like that it still wouldn't work.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 06:56:39 AM
From the JPost article:

Quote
a spokesman for El Al refused to say how many passengers the company was filing complaints against.
He also refused to say why religious passengers had not been allowed to get off the plane in New York, or if and why the captain had lied to them when he said he was returning to the gate.

In addition, he declined to say why the flight attendants had been late and why, unlike the flight attendants, all the passengers had been able to arrive on time despite the weather conditions.

I would guess that publishing just these questions daily on the front page of one or more Israeli newspapers until ELAL at the very least comes clean, and better yet commits to serious changes as to how they treat their customers, might go a very long way.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 07:06:45 AM
From the JPost article:

I would guess that publishing just these questions daily on the front page of one or more Israeli newspapers until ELAL at the very least comes clean, and better yet commits to serious changes as to how they treat their customers, might go a very long way.
When I hear these stories about ELAL I get confused what thread I am in. It seems they can do what they want whenever they want and not lose their core flyers.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 07:22:59 AM
When I hear these stories about ELAL I get confused what thread I am in. It seems they can do what they want whenever they want and not lose their core flyers.
They've endured for longer than you have been around (IINM) with that strategy. In politics it's actually easier. :P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on November 19, 2018, 09:01:31 AM
Another point, as per what I read, if the plane would have continue straight to Tel Aviv it would have arrived 15-20 after sunset. Now I do understand that all yiden accepted that shabbos is starting by sunset, however I know for a fact that in the US, for example the Satmar rabanim in case of a semi emergency, like unforeseen traffic and instead of being stranded for shabbos they rule that in such a case you have till about 20 min after sunset.
My whole point of the questions is that this whole chilul shabbos avoidance is more like a nationalistic feeling. Fact is because the plane diverted to ATH it was caused double chilul shabbos deoirasa for other secular Jews with no שיטה להיתר. One for elal and for arkia. They all knew that it would happen. Non of the frum yidden had any הוה אמינא that all secular Jews together with the crew will stay in ATH. Had they agreed to continue to TLV they could avoid that,  and they would not be in violation of any deoirasa or even derabanan.
You should probably get the facts before making a post like this.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Baglach on November 19, 2018, 09:26:41 AM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-captain-tricked-passengers/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 09:27:33 AM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-captain-tricked-passengers/
YWN rips off the ATC audio that @Chaikel spliced together for DansDeals and reuploads it with their own copyright on it and then Lucky links to their video.
SMH.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 19, 2018, 09:43:20 AM
YWN rips off the ATC audio that @Chaikel spliced together for DansDeals and reuploads it with their own copyright on it and then Lucky links to their video.
SMH.
Did/will you reach out to him?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 09:45:55 AM
Did/will you reach out to him?
Wasn't planning on it.
YWN is sick though.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 09:48:14 AM
Wasn't planning on it.
YWN is sick though.

At least have Lucky change the link to yours
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 09:53:47 AM
YWN rips off the ATC audio that @Chaikel spliced together for DansDeals and reuploads it with their own copyright on it and then Lucky links to their video.
SMH.

They probably don't even realize it's spliced (do they even know what that means?)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 09:54:37 AM
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5408150,00.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 10:00:53 AM
At least have Lucky change the link to yours
OK
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 10:08:16 AM
@Dan get more details from him https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/el-al-invent-charedi-violence-shift-blame-away-airlines-mistakes-plus-listen-air-traffic-control-audio-el-al-receives-permission-return-gate/#comment-1383828
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 10:13:37 AM
@Dan get more details from him https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/el-al-invent-charedi-violence-shift-blame-away-airlines-mistakes-plus-listen-air-traffic-control-audio-el-al-receives-permission-return-gate/#comment-1383828
To learn what?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 10:16:02 AM
To learn what?

More details - Everyone has a uniqueness how they tell a story
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mmgfarb on November 19, 2018, 10:23:23 AM
They probably don't even realize it's spliced (do they even know what that means?)
Who cares how much effort went into making the video, ripping it off is just blatant stealing of content.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: 159dallas on November 19, 2018, 10:47:18 AM
Worth noting that LY 1 which should be the plane that would fly back motzei shabbos was ontime so they did mange to get it back https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY1/history/20181117/2230Z/LLBG/KJFK (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY1/history/20181117/2230Z/LLBG/KJFK)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 10:48:45 AM
Worth noting that LY 1 which should be the plane that would fly back motzei shabbos was ontime so they did mange to get it back https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY1/history/20181117/2230Z/LLBG/KJFK (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY1/history/20181117/2230Z/LLBG/KJFK)

Get back what?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 10:52:05 AM
Worth noting that LY 1 which should be the plane that would fly back motzei shabbos was ontime so they did mange to get it back https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY1/history/20181117/2230Z/LLBG/KJFK (https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY1/history/20181117/2230Z/LLBG/KJFK)
Noted on ddms already :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 11:23:17 AM
Interview (in Hebrew) with Rabbi Hendel of Athens telling his side of the story, with information about the logistics required.

http://chabad.info/news/%D7%9B%D7%9A-%D7%90%D7%99%D7%A8%D7%97%D7%A0%D7%95-%D7%90%D7%AA-150-%D7%A0%D7%95%D7%A1%D7%A2%D7%99%D7%9D-%D7%94%D7%A9%D7%9C%D7%99%D7%97-%D7%91%D7%90%D7%AA%D7%95%D7%A0%D7%94-%D7%91%D7%A8%D7%90%D7%99/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 12:02:05 PM
https://www.vosizneias.com/310339/2018/11/19/new-york-passengers-on-nightmare-ny-flight-mulling-legal-action-against-el-al-airline-planning-compensation/
Quote
Sources close to El Al said that the airline was planning to offer compensation to the passengers and would make decisions in the coming days.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 19, 2018, 12:35:31 PM
Here are the facts, shkiah in TLV was 4:40:38 as per Hebrew calendar. As per flight aware the flight took off 11:46.
If you look on the history of flight LY02 when they have the 747 for it, you can see that a week before,  Nov 8 the flying time which includes taxiing was 9:49 which means from gate departure till gate arrival.
From 11:46 EST to 4:40 IST is 9:54, that is even more time as the week before, which it was 9:49 including taxi before takeoff which is a substantial amount of time.
I am sure had the flight landed in TLV they would have got priority to get to the gate,  plus sometimes ATC can give a faster route.
To conclude, this whole fiasco and the double chilul shabbos could have been avoided. If the plane reaches the gate before shkiah, people would have had no problem al pi halacha to leave the aircraft to the airport.
ElAl could have arranged a nice shabbos in one of the Lounges airside, plus you understand the Israeli government is more lenient to just have the whole group escorted to a large area till moitzai shabbos. They could even make an eiruv in the entire airport etc.
I am not looking to take away blame from Elal as they we're wrong with delay to begin with, and they should have given an option for people to reschedule for Moitzai Shabbos before the boarding. That wouldnt delay the flight any longer. If anyone chose to stay,  he can't complain that he is arriving 2 minutes before shkiah.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 12:38:23 PM
Here are the facts, shkiah in TLV was 4:40:38 as per Hebrew calendar. As per flight aware the flight took off 11:46.
If you look on the history of flight LY02 when they have the 747 for it, you can see that a week before,  Nov 8 the flying time which includes taxiing was 9:49 which means from gate departure till gate arrival.
From 11:46 EST to 4:40 IST is 9:54, that is even more time as the week before, which it was 9:49 including taxi before takeoff which is a substantial amount of time.
I am sure had the flight landed in TLV they would have got priority to get to the gate,  plus sometimes ATC can give a faster route.
To conclude, this whole fiasco and the double chilul shabbos could have been avoided. If the plane reaches the gate before shkiah, people would have had no problem al pi halacha to leave the aircraft to the airport.
ElAl could have arranged a nice shabbos in one of the Lounges airside, plus you understand the Israeli government is more lenient to just have the whole group escorted to a large area till moitzai shabbos. They could even make an eiruv in the entire airport etc.
I am not looking to take away blame from Elal as they we're wrong with delay to begin with, and they should have given an option for people to reschedule for Moitzai Shabbos before the boarding. That wouldnt delay the flight any longer. If anyone chose to stay,  he can't complain that he is arriving 2 minutes before shkiah.

ELAL is starting to practice damage control now.

Some Hebrew articles:
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5409449,00.html
http://www.news1.co.il/Archive/001-D-408071-00.html - there's a video clip at the end of this one, where they seem to be making the assertion you are saying that it was technically possible to land before Shabbos. Assuming this is true, they could have handled the situation much better, by communicating with the passengers, explaining the options, and allowing them a quick choice whether to take this risk (and possibly get some Halachic guidance) or to deplane, causing everyone else to definitely arrive after Shkia.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 19, 2018, 12:54:59 PM
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/11/19/el-al-violence/

Quote
I reference this last video because of the ominous threat at its conclusion. All three items provide circumstantial evidence at best.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 19, 2018, 12:55:22 PM
Deplane 11:30 would definitely cause chilul shabbos and I don't think elal would continue as per what others said that there is a fine for them for a clear chilul shabbos.
But giving the option before boarding which I believe it was about 8:30 not to board, and reschedule whoever wants to, it would take away alot of blame from them even it would have arrive a few minutes after shkiah,  and definitely if it would arrive just in time, and had they given for the frum passengers accommodation at the airport in TLV it would have been a big PR for them.
It looks like this shailos will be more often. I think they need to adopt a strict policy. Maybe even have flyers by the check in on Thursday night flights explaining for the passengers what they can expect in emergency cases.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deal Guy on November 19, 2018, 01:04:47 PM
I don’t understand why Elal 002 diverted to Athens?
 If you looked at flightaware that night and were tracking the flight, you were able to see that flight was scheduled to land at 4:00-4:10pm in TLV, and the pilot was at times flying in excess of 700mph.
 I was surprised to wake up the next morning and see that it diverted to Athens.
 Flight 008 on the other hand was obvious that they weren’t gonna make it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 04:12:19 PM
+1

As long as it puts the facts the way they are (that ELAL doesn't care about Shabbos, and doesn't respect their paying customers, especially if they appear "chareidi"), and faults Shomrei Shabbos for booking/boarding those flights except in cases of true emergency.

On that note, while I am sure Rabbi Sorotzkin's intentions were good, wouldn't he have done better calling on everyone NOT TO BOARD THE FLIGHT, rather than taking steps to ensure that everyone can be accommodated for Shabbos wherever the plane might land?

Isarel News10 Channel is publishing what is allegedly the report from the pilot (captain?):

https://www.10.tv/news/176528

In that report it says (presumably referring to Rabbi Sorotzkin):
Quote
רב ממחלקת העסקים וביקש לדבר בכריזה עם אותם חרדים ולשכנע אותם להמשיך בטיסה: "הוא מסביר להם שזה בסדר להגיע לארץ שעה לפני השבת, ושהם יקבלו אש"ל. אותם חרדים מתרצים".

Given all the information coming out, and giving the benefit of the doubt to everyone, here is how I think the situation should have been handled, and would have been a POSITIVE customer-relations and PR experience:

Since boarding began about 2 hours late, which means that had there been no additional delays and flight would run just 2 hours behind schedule, it would have arrived about 2:30 hours before Shabbos.

EVERYONE should have been given a written and verbal notice in Hebrew, English and Yiddish PRIOR TO BOARDING stating the following:



Due to the delayed start, the flight is scheduled to arrive only X:XX before Shabbos. This is true only if EVERYONE decides to board, and there are no additional delays which are beyond anyone's control.

Once the doors to the flight are closed, the flight will take off, and no-one will be allowed to deplane. Every effort will be made to land in TLV no later than 30 minutes before sunset. If that is the case, arrangements will be made for passengers who wish to spend the Shabbos at LLBG. If it is discovered at any point that it is impossible to land 30 minutes or more before sunset in TLV, the plane will be diverted to a (yet to be determined, depending on timing) location in Europe, where accommodations will be made for those who choose to spend Shabbos there and they will continue to TLV within 6 hours after Shabbos is over. Alternative flights will be made available for those who wish to continue to TLV before Shabbos is over.




If given such a notice in advance, where the potential problems can and should be anticipated, expectations will be set right, and emotions should be under control.

IMHO most frum passengers would choose not to fly. If any of them checked in luggage, that would cause an additional substantial delay, retrieving the luggage (unless somehow there's a way around that - but IMHO it's bad enough flying on a Thursday evening, no shomer shabbos should have checked luggage on such a flight), but that might actually lessen the load on the plane and possibly allow faster flying time. (I wonder what Rabbi Sorotzkin would have publicly said or personally done if given such a notice.)

ELAL would come out a winner, trying to help keep Shabbos and caring for their passengers, the immediate financial cost would probably be lower, and the reputational cost would definitely be lower, and possibly even a gain in reputation.

Such a notice would also allow the person traveling along with a deceased, to call up their LOR and ask what they should do.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 04:20:58 PM
Isarel News10 Channel is publishing what is allegedly the report from the pilot (captain?):

https://www.10.tv/news/176528
Not fair, I can't read it.  >:(
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on November 19, 2018, 04:37:39 PM
Not fair, I can't read it.  >:(
You really need to start using Chrome.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 04:42:08 PM
Not fair, I can't read it.  >:(

Didn't try this: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=www.10.tv%2Fnews%2F176528&edit-text=&act=url ?

You would get the gist of things. Though I'd like to hear from you what you would have inserted instead of "economy" and instead of "Those Ultra-Orthodox are rational"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yaalili on November 19, 2018, 04:42:23 PM
You really need to start using Chrome.

:D
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 04:52:59 PM
Didn't try this: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=www.10.tv%2Fnews%2F176528&edit-text=&act=url ?

You would get the gist of things. Though I'd like to hear from you what you would have inserted instead of "economy" and instead of "Those Ultra-Orthodox are rational"
Thanks and I am not inserting anything as I know my limitations.  :)
I want to hear his version of telling the passengers if they sit down he will return to the gate.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 04:53:46 PM
You really need to start using Chrome.
To many sites fail with RoboForm.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 19, 2018, 04:56:45 PM
Didn't try this: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=www.10.tv%2Fnews%2F176528&edit-text=&act=url ?

You would get the gist of things. Though I'd like to hear from you what you would have inserted instead of "economy" and instead of "Those Ultra-Orthodox are rational"
הקברניט: "החלו דיווחים על דחיפות ושליחת ידיים
The captain: "There have been reports of urgency and handshaking
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 04:58:13 PM
הקברניט: "החלו דיווחים על דחיפות ושליחת ידיים
The captain: "There have been reports of urgency and handshaking
I guess this is a case where the translation might be more accurate than the original.  ;D
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 04:58:37 PM
To many sites fail with RoboForm.
Why is that any better than Lastpass?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 19, 2018, 05:00:39 PM
I guess this is a case where the translation might be more accurate than the original.  ;D
Before you know it, the Israeli news published a English article translated to Hebrew with google translate and nothing ever happened.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 05:03:40 PM
Before you no it the Israeli news published a English article translated to Hebrew with google translate and nothing ever happened.
Can I get an English (or Hebrew, or Yiddish. Will also accept Aramaic and French) translation of your sentence?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 05:04:54 PM
Why is that any better than Lastpass?
Have no idea if it is but have been using it forever.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 19, 2018, 05:12:51 PM
I think elal has a point,  if you are a true shomer shabbos you have no business boarding the plane after 8:30 especially if they are ready to reschedule you for moitzai shabbos without any extra cost. If you do board than it's on your own risk.
I don't believe over 150 passengers had a real emergency,  and needed to be on that plane.
Having said that, they still have an obligation to try to accommodate religious customers.
IMO arriving at the gate up to the shkiah, would be good enough for them and they could argue that the religious people are at fault here for not letting them. If the flight would depart 11:30 when they were given the clearance for takeoff, they would arrive even 15 min before shkiah or even earlier.
The real question is,  if they were honest with passengers by check in, and if they were flexible to do changes on reservations.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on November 19, 2018, 05:20:01 PM
To many sites fail with RoboForm.
You really need to start using Lastpass
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 19, 2018, 05:26:12 PM
Can I get an English (or Hebrew, or Yiddish. Will also accept Aramaic and French) translation of your sentence?
לפני שאתה יודע את זה חדשות ישראל פרסם מאמר באנגלית מתורגם לעברית עם Google לתרגם שום דבר לא קרה.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 19, 2018, 05:45:37 PM
1. Would United or Delta have gone back to the gate to accommodate ~50% of the plane who wanted to get off?

2. Would United or Delta have diverted a flight to Greece, paid for accommodations, and then sent a special charter flight to pick up passengers?

Aside from the pilot lying and not turning around after he said he did (which is wrong, but possibly didn't change anything), I'm not sure the best outcome wasn't achieved once people decided to take the risk and board a flight barely 12 hours from candle-lighting in TLV.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 05:46:56 PM
לפני שאתה יודע את זה חדשות ישראל פרסם מאמר באנגלית מתורגם לעברית עם Google לתרגם שום דבר לא קרה.

ALOL (quite painfull given my current cold).

Just as unitelligible as the original.

Let's forgo all (google) translations. Give it to me in your own מאמע לשון - native tongue. And if you're saying that you wrote it in your native tongue, then please post an audio, as I'm having a hard time understanding the written sentence.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 05:47:22 PM
1. Would United or Delta have gone back to the gate to accommodate ~50% of the plane who wanted to get off?

2. Would United or Delta have diverted a flight to Greece, paid for accommodations, and then sent a special charter flight to pick up passengers?

Aside from the pilot lying and not turning around after he said he did (which is wrong, but possibly didn't change anything), I'm not sure the best outcome wasn't achieved once people decided to take the risk and board a flight barely 12 hours from candle-lighting in TLV.
UA cancelled their Thursday night flight after religious pax asked to get off the plane.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 05:50:10 PM
UA cancelled their Thursday night flight after religious pax asked to get off the plane.
Will have a DDMS post how unfair this was to other passengers?  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 19, 2018, 05:50:49 PM
UA cancelled their Thursday night flight after religious pax asked to get off the plane.
Had they begun to taxi?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 05:56:28 PM
1. Would United or Delta have gone back to the gate to accommodate ~50% of the plane who wanted to get off?

2. Would United or Delta have diverted a flight to Greece, paid for accommodations, and then sent a special charter flight to pick up passengers?

Aside from the pilot lying and not turning around after he said he did (which is wrong, but possibly didn't change anything), I'm not sure the best outcome wasn't achieved once people decided to take the risk and board a flight barely 12 hours from candle-lighting in TLV.
The answer to #1 IMHO might be yes. While the answer to #2 is definitely no (but presumably you're talking about non-Jewish pilots, which might make it different halachically).

As previously stated (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=97785.msg2015703#msg2015703) (and explained in the article by Assaf Shmueli (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=97785.msg2015212#msg2015212)) the big problem here was the gap between people's expectations and reality. It is very likely that the people boarding weren't consciously aware that they are boarding a flight that should take about 10 hours with no delays whatsoever, 12 hours before candle-lighting in TLV.  If only they were each made to say those words themselves ("I am boarding a flight that should take 10 hours if there are no additional delays which are beyond anyone's control, knowing that in 12 hours Shabbos comes in at my destination") everything might have played out differently.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 05:58:03 PM
UA cancelled their Thursday night flight after religious pax asked to get off the plane.
Thursday night, or Thursday afternoon? I doubt any Shomer Shabbos person would be booked on UA Thursday night flight.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 06:02:08 PM
Thursday night, or Thursday afternoon? I doubt any Shomer Shabbos person would be booked on UA Thursday night flight.
Both were cancelled. Not sure how long they waited on the runway.

Will have a DDMS post how unfair this was to other passengers?  :)
After 4 hours UA has no choice but to let people off.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 19, 2018, 06:08:30 PM
After 4 hours UA has no choice but to let people off.
Learning a lot from this thread.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 19, 2018, 06:08:36 PM
After 4 hours UA has no choice but to let people off.

Is LY not subject to the same rules?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 06:12:26 PM
Is LY not subject to the same rules?
They are, but they were not on the runway for 4 hours.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 19, 2018, 06:25:17 PM
Both were cancelled. Not sure how long they waited on the runway.
After 4 hours UA has no choice but to let people off.
If UA had to let people off for a tarmac delay, I'm not sure if it is fair to say they did it for the shomer shabbos pax.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 19, 2018, 06:57:15 PM
If UA had to let people off for a tarmac delay, I'm not sure if it is fair to say they did it for the shomer shabbos pax.
That's who allegedly did the complaining.
Again, just what people commented. I haven't investigated.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 19, 2018, 08:56:24 PM
http://matzav.com/el-al-managing-director-addresses-anti-chareidi-sentiments-after-latest-story-promises-orthodox-chamber-to-continue-working-with-the-frum-community/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jo 08701 on November 19, 2018, 09:31:26 PM
On a positive side of the story,  it's noteworthy that about half the people of a plane which you can argue represented the entire population in Israel, chose not to be mechalel shabbos. You can even argue that it under presented the chareidi sector.
I think the Barditichiver would be happy from such a story.
I doubt that had it happen 40 years ago if you would have such a large percentage. מי כעמך ישראל
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: joey89 on November 19, 2018, 10:09:32 PM
http://matzav.com/el-al-managing-director-addresses-anti-chareidi-sentiments-after-latest-story-promises-orthodox-chamber-to-continue-working-with-the-frum-community/
It sounds like a press release aimed at damage control with an assist from the orthodox chamber of commerce, especially the last paragraph “The Orthodox Chamber of Commerce will be serving as an exclusive vehicle through which members of the Orthodox community can respectfully express questions and concerns to El Al in a manner that will ensure that issues are addressed by the upper echelon of El Al’s administration in a timely manner. The chamber may be reached at duvi@ojchamber.com” (emphasis mine)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: zh cohen on November 19, 2018, 10:49:50 PM
ALOL (quite painfull given my current cold).

Just as unitelligible as the original.

Let's forgo all (google) translations. Give it to me in your own מאמע לשון - native tongue. And if you're saying that you wrote it in your native tongue, then please post an audio, as I'm having a hard time understanding the written sentence.

I think he is suggesting (in jest) that the stories about violence published in Israeli media are based on a bad Google translate of an article in English that mentioned "urgency and hand-shaking"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yelped on November 19, 2018, 11:04:46 PM
It sounds like a press release aimed at damage control with an assist from the orthodox chamber of commerce, especially the last paragraph “The Orthodox Chamber of Commerce will be serving as an exclusive vehicle through which members of the Orthodox community can respectfully express questions and concerns to El Al in a manner that will ensure that issues are addressed by the upper echelon of El Al’s administration in a timely manner. The chamber may be reached at duvi@ojchamber.com” (emphasis mine)
It sure is. Apparently another self serving lobbyist.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 20, 2018, 12:38:44 AM
It sounds like a press release aimed at damage control with an assist from the orthodox chamber of commerce, especially the last paragraph “The Orthodox Chamber of Commerce will be serving as an exclusive vehicle through which members of the Orthodox community can respectfully express questions and concerns to El Al in a manner that will ensure that issues are addressed by the upper echelon of El Al’s administration in a timely manner. The chamber may be reached at duvi@ojchamber.com” (emphasis mine)
LOL
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: joey89 on November 20, 2018, 12:50:01 AM
It sure is. Apparently another self serving lobbyist.

Don’t mind self serving lobbyists (they have the ability to get things heard which the average person doesn’t), what gnaws at me is the way he is trying to position himself as the ONLY person worth working with and that he speaks for everyone. ELAL is more than happy to go along with it being that it looks like they are taking the orthodox worlds concerns seriously while simultaneously knowing that he won’t push to hard so as not to lose access. It is just all to cynical, (which is the central ELAL issue that led to this fiasco)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 20, 2018, 12:53:07 AM
I don't think anybody is taking this clown even remotely seriously, least of all Elal.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: joey89 on November 20, 2018, 01:08:24 AM
They met with him and gave him a photo op. They will be happy to leverage whatever positive publicity they can get these days, especially through a organization “representing” Orthodox Judaism.
I obviously don’t think that internally they take him seriously, they are just using him cynically and he is happy to play the fool. Also I don’t think a majority of people take him seriously, however we are dealing with a demographic that has a decent chunk of people with a tendency to blindly rely on “askanim” to guide them in matters which they don’t fully understand.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shimino1 on November 20, 2018, 01:54:56 AM
Israeli public broadcast channel 11 played the ATC recordings last night that sound 100% like they were ripped off from DD or from someone else that that ripped them off DD. The level of journalism is very low, the objective reporting is nowhere near as good as Dan's and the entire article is speculative. I guess that is the media these days.

Here is a link to Bechadri that has the excerpt of the news last night from channel 11: http://www.bhol.co.il/news/954757 (http://www.bhol.co.il/news/954757)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on November 20, 2018, 06:05:23 AM
Arutz 7: $2.5m lawsuit against LY
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/254989
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: a mirrer on November 20, 2018, 08:37:33 AM
the legal brief filing the lawsuit in hebrew
https://www.kikar.co.il/297526.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ar on November 20, 2018, 09:12:47 AM
Omg. Fake news exposed

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1626329/fake-news-exposed-watch-how-channel-10-in-israel-changed-video-of-el-al-passengers-singing-to-screaming.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: SGF on November 20, 2018, 10:07:26 AM
UA cancelled their Thursday night flight after religious pax asked to get off the plane.
Interesting, i heard from a passenger that was on board that they cancelled due to the fact the the crew would have exceeded their max allowed shift time has they taken off.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 10:17:46 AM
Omg. Fake news exposed

https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1626329/fake-news-exposed-watch-how-channel-10-in-israel-changed-video-of-el-al-passengers-singing-to-screaming.html

No surprise. If all journalist are inherent liars, Israeli journalists take it to a different level. I once had a journalist who wanted to interview me, and when I refused saying that I won't grant him an interview because he's a liar, he was initially offended. I explained that it's nothing personal against him, and that he's more than welcome to come to my house and spend Shabbos with us, but once it comes to his occupation, I don't trust him one iota.

Whenever reading or listening to Israeli media, one needs to be aware that at least 95% is a construct of the writer's imagination.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: zagguru on November 20, 2018, 10:20:28 AM
He also changed his post

https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-captain-tricked-passengers/

Surprised TPG hasnt mentioned this incident at all
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 10:35:54 AM
No surprise. If all journalist are inherent liars, Israeli journalists take it to a different level. I once had a journalist who wanted to interview me, and when I refused saying that I won't grant him an interview because he's a liar, he was initially offended. I explained that it's nothing personal against him, and that he's more than welcome to come to my house and spend Shabbos with us, but once it comes to his occupation, I don't trust him one iota.

Whenever reading or listening to Israeli media, one needs to be aware that at least 95% is a construct of the writer's imagination.
So who do we believe? Do we believe the reporter on the fight?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 10:44:07 AM
So who do we believe? Do we believe the reporter on the fight?

You don't have to believe anyone, if you care about the story, just try to construct it yourself in your own imagination based on bits and pieces you read and filter.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 11:02:40 AM
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5408617,00.html

Attention @ChaimMoskowitz
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:20:41 AM
You don't have to believe anyone, if you care about the story, just try to construct it yourself in your own imagination based on bits and pieces you read and filter.
That's the problem. With little knowledge that I have I come to the conclusion there is no way that 180 religious individuals would take missing Shabbos sitting down. I also come to the conclusion that ElAl would make sure that plane took off.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 20, 2018, 11:24:08 AM
That's the problem. With little knowledge that I have I come to the conclusion there is no way that 180 religious individuals would take missing Shabbos sitting down. I also come to the conclusion that ElAl would make sure that plane took off.
Chillul shabbos =/= missing shabbos.
Making sure you mean chillul (disgrace/violate) not simply miss.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:27:50 AM
https://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-5408617,00.html

Attention @ChaimMoskowitz
I fully understand this.
Chillul shabbos =/= missing shabbos.
Making sure you mean chillul (disgrace/violate) not simply miss.
I understand what it means to you and most here. You need to understand what it means to me and most that are not on this forum. We can both have our positions while respecting each other.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 20, 2018, 11:30:24 AM
I fully understand this. I understand what it means to you and most here. You need to understand what it means to mean and most that are not on this forum. We can both have our positions while respecting each other.
I was NOT making sure you understand the significance, just clarifying what you mean when you say missing.
Missing your flight and staying in NY can be called missing.
Desecrating is another thing, how it plays a role here is another thing, just saying they are different.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 11:33:45 AM
I fully understand this. I understand what it means to you and most here. You need to understand what it means to me and most that are not on this forum. We can both have our positions while respecting each other.

Kindly elaborate on that. What does it mean to you and most that are not on this forum?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: sillypainter on November 20, 2018, 11:34:41 AM
Sitting on the sidelines and observing the back and forth, I have one respectful request for @ChaimMoskowitz to please stay out of this, it's something that you can't understand and will NEVER understand, it's not in your blood, you can live another 200 years and you'll never grasp it. And in my opinion you should not have an opinion in this matter, same as I don't have an opinion when it comes to rocket science, there is sometimes one must say or think that they are not well versed in a certain subject or matter so they have to sit on the side and watch.

I really mean it in a respectful way, no offense please.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:38:07 AM
Kindly elaborate on that. What does it mean to you and most that are not on this forum?
Let me explain it as a Catholic. It would be like missing Sunday mass. That probably will not help you at all.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:40:31 AM
Sitting on the sidelines and observing the back and forth, I have one respectful request for @ChaimMoskowitz to please stay out of this, it's something that you can't understand and will NEVER understand, it's not in your blood, you can live another 200 years and you'll never grasp it. And in my opinion you should not have an opinion in this matter, same as I don't have an opinion when it comes to rocket science, there is sometimes one must say or think that they are not well versed in a certain subject or matter so they have to sit on the side and watch.

I really mean it in a respectful way, no offense please.
No offense taking.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 11:43:27 AM
Let me explain it as a Catholic. It would be like missing Sunday mass. That probably will not help you at all.

Unless I am totally off, if that is the way you see it, then indeed you don't get it, which is what many (myself included) have been saying, that a non Shomer Shabbos cannot begin to appreciate it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on November 20, 2018, 11:44:53 AM
Let me explain it as a Catholic. It would be like missing Sunday mass. That probably will not help you at all.
Shabbos is not an event.
You missed nothing if you are in a hole in the wall in Antarctica
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:48:24 AM
Unless I am totally off, if that is the way you see it, then indeed you don't get it, which is what many (myself included) have been saying, that a non Shomer Shabbos cannot begin to appreciate it.
Let me asking you this. If I ask someone what is the most important thing in their life and the answer XYZ. To me lets say that XYZ is 8 or 9. Does that mean I can't understand why XYZ is the most important thing to them?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: AsherO on November 20, 2018, 11:53:42 AM
Hope this isn't off-topic:

https://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=53116&alias=let-s-act-on-our-shabbos-feelings
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 11:56:16 AM
Let me asking you this. If I ask someone what is the most important thing in their life and the answer XYZ. To me lets say that XYZ is 8 or 9. Does that mean I can't understand why XYZ is the most important thing to them?

What you are missing with your question is in the premise of "most important thing". Keeping Shabbos isn't a "most important thing", it is part of who I am!

If you were to say that you understand that violating Shabbos would be equivalent to having your hand chopped off, then maybe I'd say you're starting to grasp things. But as long as you are referring to something that's outside of your actual being, then you don't get it.

Did you ever read this page (https://www.sefaria.org/Berakhot.61b?lang=bi)?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:57:19 AM
Hope this isn't off-topic:

https://collive.com/show_news.rtx?id=53116&alias=let-s-act-on-our-shabbos-feelings
WOW after reading this all I can think of is a blessing in disguise.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 11:59:29 AM
What you are missing with your question is in the premise of "most important thing". Keeping Shabbos isn't a "most important thing", it is part of who I am!

If you were to say that you understand that violating Shabbos would be equivalent to having your hand chopped off, then maybe I'd say you're starting to grasp things. But as long as you are referring to something that's outside of your actual being, then you don't get it.
You refuse to accept that I understand. There is nothing I can say that will change your mind.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 12:04:32 PM
You refuse to accept that I understand. There is nothing I can say that will change your mind.
You are misunderstanding me. I am trying to understand to what extent you get it. It was you who said that to ChaimMoskowitz and most off this forum desecrating Shabbos is like missing Sunday Mass for a Catholic. See my edit above.

Maybe after you install the surveillance system in and around my house and come for a visit, I will fully grasp what you understand.  Though I will only allow installation of a system that is certified as Shabbos Compliant.:P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 12:16:18 PM
You are misunderstanding me. I am trying to understand to what extent you get it. It was you who said that to ChaimMoskowitz and most off this forum desecrating Shabbos is like missing Sunday Mass for a Catholic.
Man do we need this DO!!!

I guess we have a culture barrier. You are confusing the way I look at Shabbos with the way I understand what it means to you. Those are two totally separate things.

I believe to you it means everything. There is no discussion of you missing Shabbos because that is not an option. As you have stated Shabbos is part of you.

Now as far as a Catholic missing Sunday mass. AFAIK my mother never missed Sunday mass in her lifetime expect when she was incapacited. On some of those occassions a priest came to the house/hospital to give her Commuion. So your remark was really disrespectful but I did not take it that way since you are not aware what Caholic mass on Sunday means to some Catholics.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 12:32:12 PM
Man do we need this DO!!!

Just as soon as you have the Shabbos compliant surveillance system installed, we can have it scheduled.



I guess we have a culture barrier. You are confusing the way I look at Shabbos with the way I understand what it means to you. Those are two totally separate things.

I believe to you it means everything. There is no discussion of you missing Shabbos because that is not an option. As you have stated Shabbos is part of you.

Now as far as a Catholic missing Sunday mass. AFAIK my mother never missed Sunday mass in her lifetime expect when she was incapacited. On some of those occassions a priest came to the house/hospital to give her Commuion. So your remark was really disrespectful but I did not take it that way since you are not aware what Caholic mass on Sunday means to some Catholics.
I apologize. I definitely didn't mean it in a disrespectful way.

Davening with a Minyan is extremely important, and some people never miss it, and would forgo many things in order not to have to miss it. But even for such people, that's not the same as Shabbos. It is extremely important to me, but I can't say I never miss it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 12:40:06 PM
I apologize. I definitely didn't mean it in a disrespectful way.
No need to as I know you didn't mean any disrespect.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shwarmabob on November 20, 2018, 12:59:23 PM
Let me explain it as a Catholic. It would be like missing Sunday mass. That probably will not help you at all.
It's probably more like for a Franciscan friar to miss Sunday mass or eat meat on Good Friday. It's both an active act and not just missing something which is passive
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 01:10:27 PM
It's probably more like for a Franciscan friar to miss Sunday mass or eat meat on Good Friday. It's both an active act and not just missing something which is passive
Seems like you get it.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 20, 2018, 01:19:36 PM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-shabbat-lawsuit/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 20, 2018, 01:33:33 PM
https://onemileatatime.com/el-al-shabbat-lawsuit/
I have no idea what possible grounds they could have to sue.

If anything the non religious passangers who had to wait in Athens for Israir to pick up have more grounds to sue!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 20, 2018, 01:35:42 PM
I have no idea what possible grounds they could have to sue.

If anything the non religious passangers who had to wait in Athens for Israir to pick up have more grounds to sue!


Just to make noise so Elal apologizes and give some hush money
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 20, 2018, 02:24:00 PM
https://liveandletsfly.boardingarea.com/2018/11/20/el-al-athens-diversion/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: gingyguy on November 20, 2018, 02:39:30 PM
I have no idea what possible grounds they could have to sue.

libel?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 20, 2018, 02:56:04 PM
libel?

While you're at it, add נזק צער ריפוי שבת ובושת
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 20, 2018, 03:17:07 PM
libel?
Doubtful as I don't think any specific person could show that he or she lost as a result.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 20, 2018, 03:17:42 PM
While you're at it, add נזק צער ריפוי שבת ובושת
Nobody was forced to board that flight. The tarmac delay was within the legal limit.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chaim0m on November 20, 2018, 03:24:41 PM
Nobody was forced to board that flight. The tarmac delay was within the legal limit.
What makes you say that? the boarding was at 8 something and the flight only took off at 11:45pm that means it exceeded 3 hours.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 03:28:53 PM
What makes you say that? the boarding was at 8 something and the flight only took off at 11:45pm that means it exceeded 3 hours.
IIRC it was stated earlier it has to be 4 hours but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 03:35:38 PM
YWN rips off the ATC audio that @Chaikel spliced together for DansDeals and reuploads it with their own copyright on it and then Lucky links to their video.
SMH.
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgxrbnCuJE
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 20, 2018, 03:36:54 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgxrbnCuJE
+1
OUCH
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 03:37:47 PM
We have a story within a story.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 03:38:45 PM
Lucky never updated his video link. Dead now though.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 20, 2018, 03:38:54 PM
Nobody was forced to board that flight. The tarmac delay was within the legal limit.

I was being facetious.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chaim0m on November 20, 2018, 03:39:34 PM
IIRC it was stated earlier it has to be 4 hours but I could be wrong.
I see you are  right, for International flights it's 4 hours. Although with Elal we never really know if it will be International....
It still may have been 4 hours for some of the people boarding at least.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 20, 2018, 03:46:29 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgxrbnCuJE

+1
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yelped on November 20, 2018, 03:48:28 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgxrbnCuJE
Awesome! Thanks! I don't who runs YWN and the other sister sites, but definitely doesn't seem too educated to me...
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 03:49:24 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ItgxrbnCuJE

Good thing for standing up to your legal rights. Protecting property (including intellectual) rights is a cornerstone of a functioning democratic society. (along with banning predatory practices).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: AsherO on November 20, 2018, 03:59:35 PM

Just to make noise so Elal apologizes and give some hush money

And acknowledges there was no violence from the "Chareidi" folks.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on November 20, 2018, 04:02:08 PM
Lucky never updated his video link. Dead now though.
His loss...
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shtark on November 20, 2018, 04:03:25 PM
<iframe width="560" height="315" src="
" frameborder="0" allow="accelerometer; autoplay; encrypted-media; gyroscope; picture-in-picture" allowfullscreen></iframe>
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 04:13:12 PM
With all the information coming out, one question keeps coming back to my mind: What did Rabbi Sorotzkin publicly announce, at what point did he do that, and based on what information/halachic ruling?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 04:21:18 PM
With all the information coming out, one question keeps coming back to my mind: What did Rabbi Sorotzkin publicly announce, at what point did he do that, and based on what information/halachic ruling?
Shame nobody seems to have audio of it.
The pilot apparently told him they would get to Israel 90 minutes before sunset and he promised Shabbos hospitality in his yeshiva.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 04:29:50 PM
Shame nobody seems to have audio of it.
The pilot apparently told him they would get to Israel 90 minutes before sunset and he promised Shabbos hospitality in his yeshiva.

As I've said before, I am positive that Rabbi Sorotzkin did what he thought was the best thing at that moment, however with the benefit of hindsight vision was that indeed a responsible thing to do?

At what point was the "getting to Israel 90 minutes before sunset" statement made? Before leaving the gate? On the way to the runway? When the captain asked everyone to sit down in order to get back to the gate (not likely as that is contradictory)?

Can we get to the bottom of what happened there, and maybe even try to get Rabbi Sorotzkin's take on what happened? Rabbi Sorotzkin is a seasoned traveler (I've been in the same cabin with him in the past, and he definitely flies way more often than I do) and should be well aware of things that can go wrong. I would presume that anyone that knows of him would give a lot of credence to his judgment in such a scenario.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 04:30:52 PM
Anyone have his contact info?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 04:33:00 PM
Was there any chance that ElAl would allow the plane to be in the air over Shabbos?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 04:34:25 PM
Was there any chance that ElAl would allow the plane to be in the air over Shabbos?

Not sure what you are asking, but LY008 was in the air and landed during Shabbos (for a legitimate reason, though taking off in the first place might not have been legitimate).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 04:37:09 PM
Not sure what you are asking, but LY008 was in the air and landed during Shabbos (for a legitimate reason, though taking off in the first place might not have been legitimate).
Not counting unforeseen situations (medical emergency) they would never allow a flight to be in the air during Shabbos. They would always divert it, correct?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Redbull3 on November 20, 2018, 04:38:57 PM
Not counting unforeseen situations (medical emergency) they would never allow a flight to be in the air during Shabbos. They would always divert it, correct?
Yep. Which is why everyone who says that people are taking a big risk flying on Thursday night on El Al, are wrong. A risk that you will end up in a weird random place, sure. A risk that you will fly on shabbas? No. IMO
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 04:43:28 PM
Yep. Which is why everyone who says that people are taking a big risk flying on Thursday night on El Al, are wrong. A risk that you will end up in a weird random place, sure. A risk that you will fly on shabbas? No. IMO

Though ELAL can claim they didn't fly on Shabbos also the last time they diverted to ATH, even though there wasn't sufficient time before sunset to even clear immigration IINM. So it's not just about being stuck in a random place for Shabbos (and that could be without any food). They probably learned their lesson from that experience when they decided to divert LY008 to FCO. They ended up being "lucky" when they had a legitimate reason to complete the flight to its original destination despite it being Shabbos.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 04:46:27 PM
Yep. Which is why everyone who says that people are taking a big risk flying on Thursday night on El Al, are wrong. A risk that you will end up in a weird random place, sure. A risk that you will fly on shabbas? No. IMO
Thanks!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Pad18 on November 20, 2018, 05:14:25 PM
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/609567
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 05:28:02 PM
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/609567

Wow. From that article it seems like he spoke to Rabbi Sorotzkin (whom I'm sure he respects and wants to keep as a client).

But most interesting are the following 3 paragraphs:
Quote

בשיחה אף עלה כי אם היה קורה אירוע חריג של אלימות כפי שתואר בעיתונות, הנוהל המיידי הוא להוריד את הנוסע האלים מהטיסה או לאזוק אותו. ולא קרה דבר כזה לא בניו יורק, אתונה או ישראל.

עוד עולה מהשיחות עם המנכ"ל כי הוא מודע לכך שלא התרחש אירוע חריג באזור תא הטייס, וכי הטייס היה מודע לכך שבמידה והטיסה תנחת עד השקיעה ביום שישי בשעה 16:40, מה שהסתבר כאפשרי,  הדבר לא ייחשב לחילול שבת.

במקרה כזה, יוכלו נוסעי הטיסה החרדים להעביר את השבת באזור הלאונג' בנתב"ג והנוסעים החילונים יעשו כנפשם. ההחלטה לעצור באתונה, שהתקבלה על ידי הנהלת החברה, התבררה כשגויה.



Google Translate did a decent job:
Quote
The conversation also revealed that if an exceptional incident of violence occurred as described in the press, the immediate procedure would be to remove the violent passenger from the flight or to handcuff him. And no such thing happened in New York, Athens or Israel.

The talks with the CEO also indicate that he is aware that there was no unusual event in the cockpit area and that the pilot was aware that if the plane landed at sunset on Friday at 16:40, it would not be considered desecration of the Sabbath.

In such a case, the ultra-Orthodox flight passengers will be able to pass the Sabbath in the lounge area at Ben-Gurion International Airport and the secular passengers will do the same.the decision to stop in Athens, which was accepted by the company's management, turned out to be wrong.

The second paragraph above confirms what I said here (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=97785.msg2016619#msg2016619).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 20, 2018, 05:40:23 PM
I have no idea what possible grounds they could have to sue.

If anything the non religious passangers who had to wait in Athens for Israir to pick up have more grounds to sue!
Looks like its already bearing fruit:
https://www.israelhayom.co.il/article/609567
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mochjas on November 20, 2018, 05:44:51 PM
Yep. Which is why everyone who says that people are taking a big risk flying on Thursday night on El Al, are wrong. A risk that you will end up in a weird random place, sure. A risk that you will fly on shabbas? No. IMO
How about a risk that you will have to spend shabbat in an airport?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 05:49:06 PM
Yep. Which is why everyone who says that people are taking a big risk flying on Thursday night on El Al, are wrong. A risk that you will end up in a weird random place, sure. A risk that you will fly on shabbas? No. IMO
The LY flight that diverted to ATH a few months ago landed within the 18 minutes.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 20, 2018, 06:00:16 PM
The LY flight that diverted to ATH a few months ago landed within the 18 minutes.
Which is what I said above (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=97785.msg2016619#msg2016619).

I wish we can stop talking about "within the 18 minutes" especially when referring to a flight landing, and especially when it's a 747.

At a bare minimum (depending on which airport) they would have to land 30 minutes before sunset in order to enable passengers to settle in the airport for Shabbos, and probably more than that.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Redbull3 on November 20, 2018, 06:23:15 PM
The LY flight that diverted to ATH a few months ago landed within the 18 minutes.
Oh wow I didn’t realize that. I stand corrected then until they improve their buffer
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 06:24:58 PM
Oh wow I didn’t realize that. I stand corrected then until they improve their buffer
They could have landed in Western Europe and had a much larger buffer. They decided to go to ATH purely for financial reasons. That's their right, but is another reason why I say to avoid Thursday LY flights.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Moshke on November 20, 2018, 07:19:02 PM
Lucky never updated his video link. Dead now though.
Next time before the video starts put the DD logo or something branding.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 20, 2018, 07:21:04 PM
Next time before the video starts put the DD logo or something branding.
Then let them rip it off. Free advertisement.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 20, 2018, 09:03:41 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/lawsuit-filed-el-al-ceo-admits-no-physical-violence-flight-002/#comment-1384867
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shimino1 on November 21, 2018, 02:51:43 AM
For those asking about the lawsuit, there are two reasons for it:

1. If ELAL gives them hush money or settles out of court, WIN!

2. If you know Israeli mentality at all, you will realize that the best way to avoid another Shabbos fiasco and anti Charedi smirch campaign is to make it hurt for the company.  Every time one of these stories comes out it does real damage to our community.

Not everyone here follows the Israeli news closely so allow me to elaborate: Whenever there is a Charedi vs "normal people" story happens (and you wouldn't believe the garbage that qualifies as such), it is the within the top five news stories of the day. In Israel! the land of wars, terrorist attacks, rockets, dead soldiers, wounded civilians, rallies, politics, corruption, government shout-downs, strikes, supreme court battles, organized crime, etc' etc'.
It could be the middle of a war, the government can collapse, the economy can die and somehow one of the top stories of the day will still be some altercation between two random civilians just because one of them happens to be Charedi! Oh and forget about any sort of objective journalism.
It is enough that someone writes an anti Charedi post on Facebook and is deemed credible. No investigative journalism is necessary at all. If the network wants to protect themselves from a libel lawsuit they will say "this is a post that appeared on Facebook" and then they will spend the next 15 minutes discussing the story like it was the gold standard of an investigative journalistic news report.

We can't control the lies and selective facts that people use to create inflammatory, anti semitic/charedi posts on Facebook but we can try to make it hurt for the companies or networks that use those fake news stories to further their own agendas, boost their viewership or to shift righteous blame away from themselves.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Redbull3 on November 21, 2018, 09:33:50 AM
Not everyone here follows the Israeli news closely so allow me to elaborate: Whenever there is a Charedi vs "normal people" story happens (and you wouldn't believe the garbage that qualifies as such), it is the within the top five news stories of the day. In Israel! the land of wars, terrorist attacks, rockets, dead soldiers, wounded civilians, rallies, politics, corruption, government shout-downs, strikes, supreme court battles, organized crime, etc' etc'.
That is so disheartening to hear. Sounds like they are taking a page from USA media. Race wars and identity politics sells :(.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Boruch999 on November 21, 2018, 09:53:43 AM
That is so disheartening to hear. Sounds like they are taking a page from USA media. Race wars and identity politics sells :(.
The Israeli media has been doing this far longer and far more blatantly than US MSM.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 21, 2018, 09:58:26 AM
Not everyone here follows the Israeli news closely so allow me to elaborate: Whenever there is a Charedi vs "normal people" story happens (and you wouldn't believe the garbage that qualifies as such), it is the within the top five news stories of the day. In Israel! the land of wars, terrorist attacks, rockets, dead soldiers, wounded civilians, rallies, politics, corruption, government shout-downs, strikes, supreme court battles, organized crime, etc' etc'.
It could be the middle of a war, the government can collapse, the economy can die and somehow one of the top stories of the day will still be some altercation between two random civilians just because one of them happens to be Charedi! Oh and forget about any sort of objective journalism.
It is enough that someone writes an anti Charedi post on Facebook and is deemed credible. No investigative journalism is necessary at all. If the network wants to protect themselves from a libel lawsuit they will say "this is a post that appeared on Facebook" and then they will spend the next 15 minutes discussing the story like it was the gold standard of an investigative journalistic news report.
Terrible!!! When the hatred and anti-Semitism starts at home what can you expect from others?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Boruch999 on November 21, 2018, 10:00:37 AM
Terrible!!! When the hatred and anti-Semitism starts at home what can you expect from others?
+1

The Sages tell us that the Second Temple was destroyed due to hatred between Jews.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 21, 2018, 10:42:22 AM
https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/387065

Couldn't find English source yet.

Rabbinical Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos calls on passengers not to fly from North America on Thursdays, and calls on ELAL to cancel any flight that might land close to Shabbos.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 21, 2018, 11:07:41 AM
Rabbinical Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos calls on passengers not to fly from North America on Thursdays,
I appreciate when you link an English source.
I guess I look at these things in a simplified way but this was a no-brainer for me.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: gingyguy on November 21, 2018, 11:08:25 AM
Anyone have his contact info?
@Dan PM sent
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 21, 2018, 11:15:13 AM
I guess I look at these things in a simplified way but this was a no-brainer for me.
until its relevant to you
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 21, 2018, 11:24:07 AM
until its relevant to you
...even then but that is for another thread.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shwarmabob on November 21, 2018, 02:37:23 PM
https://www.inn.co.il/News/News.aspx/387065

Couldn't find English source yet.

Rabbinical Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos calls on passengers not to fly from North America on Thursdays, and calls on ELAL to cancel any flight that might land close to Shabbos.
Many here were saying the same thing. Although we are not members of the Rabbinical Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos, maybe just "DDF Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: lubaby on November 21, 2018, 02:41:49 PM
Many here were saying the same thing. Although we are not members of the Rabbinical Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos, maybe just "DDF Committee for the Holiness of Shabbos"
We have the @Chief Rabbi of New York on DDF, but I'm not sure if he agrees..
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 21, 2018, 04:10:27 PM
Letter from the CEO

Quote
11 Kislev 5779
19 November 2018

The public storm and the range of emotions that followed the events of flight 002 from New York to Israel
last Friday brought me to write the following:

We found ourselves not in the best interest of the public as the polarizing discourse and the exchange of accusations between us, and amongst the public themselves. This is contrary to our principles and values as citizens of the state and as the national airline carrying the flag of Israel on the tail of our fleet of aircraft.

The bottom line is that we regret this.

We accept with understanding all criticism even when it is unpleasant. We do everything to learn from the criticism, to improve and to be worthy of our customers' trust.

EL AL is the melting pot of Israeli society and the Jewish world. On its flights, all passengers, no matter their background on religious affiliation, with differences of opinions, different world views and a different way of life, take part.

During all stages of flight 002 from New York, senior company officials worked together to find a solution that would bring all passengers to safety as quickly as possible, and to avoid operating a flight on Shabbat. Other flights that were scheduled by foreign airlines to fly to Israel around the same schedule as EL AL, were canceled due to the weather. We could have canceled the EL AL flights, as other companies did, but we chose to make every effort to operate our flights, for the welfare and well-being of our passengers and to bring them back to Israel as soon as possible; there was no other consideration that guided us.

The decision-making process was complex. The event took place in a developing and dynamic reality that was not entirely controlled by the company (for example, after its departure, the plane was diverted to a western route instead of eastward which incurred an additional delay during the flight).Our goal, during the entire time, was one: to find the solution that balances the feelings of the various passengers. EL AL was searching for the unifying factor throughout this entire ordeal. This was the way we made our decisions regarding this flight.

Since the passengers and the crew of the flight have communicated dozens of claims and testimonies regarding the flight whereby, some of the testimonies emphasized the commotion on the flight, while others claimed that the information provided by EL AL to the passengers was incomplete. We have never accused any specific sector of passengers with events that took place on the flight, EL AL does not point out its customers' affiliation to any sector, gender, nationality or religious affiliation.

In order to learn lessons and, most importantly, to avoid such incidents to be repeated, I have decided to establish a committee to investigate all the events that took place related to flight 002, examining all the testimonies and claims. The committee will submit its conclusions and recommendations as soon as possible and I will then make decisions based on the findings.


Gonen Usishkin
CEO
EL AL Israel Airlines
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 21, 2018, 04:37:46 PM
Letter from the CEO
Again a bunch of lies:

"We could have canceled the EL AL flights, as other companies did, but we chose to make every effort to operate our flights, for the welfare and well-being of our passengers and to bring them back to Israel as soon as possible; there was no other consideration that guided us"

"We have never accused any specific sector of passengers with events that took place on the flight, EL AL does not point out its customers' affiliation to any sector, gender, nationality or religious affiliation"


Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Redbull3 on November 21, 2018, 05:00:55 PM
Also unless I am misreading, he is comparing his flight favorably to other airlines that were cancelled as if they did everyone a favor. Totally not acknowledging that to plenty of passengers, cancellation was preferable
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 21, 2018, 05:03:20 PM
Also unless I am misreading, he is comparing his flight favorably to other airlines that were cancelled as if they did everyone a favor. Totally not acknowledging that to plenty of passengers, cancellation was preferable

That's classic Israeli customer service attitude: We always provide you with a better alternative than the other guys. You should thank us for allowing you to do business with us.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 21, 2018, 05:06:33 PM
Also unless I am misreading, he is comparing his flight favorably to other airlines that were cancelled as if they did everyone a favor. Totally not acknowledging that to plenty of passengers, cancellation was preferable
Yup:
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/lawsuit-filed-el-al-ceo-admits-no-physical-violence-flight-002/#comment-1384867
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Deal Guy on November 21, 2018, 05:15:43 PM
dynamic reality that was not entirely controlled by the company (for example, after its departure, the plane was diverted to a western route instead of eastward which incurred an additional delay during the flight).

What does that mean? How can you go on a Western route while traveling to Israel?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 21, 2018, 05:18:18 PM
dynamic reality that was not entirely controlled by the company (for example, after its departure, the plane was diverted to a western route instead of eastward which incurred an additional delay during the flight).

What does that mean? How can you go on a Western route while traveling to Israel?
Maybe southern
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY2/history/20181115/2340Z/KJFK/LGAV
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY2/history/20181114/2340Z/KJFK/LLBG
https://flightaware.com/live/flight/ELY2/history/20181112/2340Z/KJFK/LLBG
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 21, 2018, 05:20:14 PM
dynamic reality that was not entirely controlled by the company (for example, after its departure, the plane was diverted to a western route instead of eastward which incurred an additional delay during the flight).

What does that mean? How can you go on a Western route while traveling to Israel?

Maybe was told to take some turn right after takeoff or later on due to weather.

https://www.flightradar24.com/data/flights/ly2#1e91c965
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shimino1 on November 21, 2018, 05:26:51 PM
I think the letter is a positive development. Don't forget this is the guy that stated that ELAL would throw people off their flights for asking other people to change seats with them.

The fact that instead of making stupid empty threats or blaming people for violence he is now explaining/apologizing, means that the public outcry and push back against ELAL has been heard by the people that matter and they are finally worried that there may be consequences if they keep insulting and laying about their costumer base.

We can only hope this is a change of attitude in managements approach that will trickle down to the common workers and that everyone will handle the situation a lot better next time something like this happens.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 21, 2018, 08:17:36 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/looking-positive-side-el-al-flight-002-fiasco-inspirational-shabbos-thanks-chabad-athens/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YossieW on November 21, 2018, 09:07:45 PM
https://www.dansdeals.com/airfare-deals/israel-flights/looking-positive-side-el-al-flight-002-fiasco-inspirational-shabbos-thanks-chabad-athens/

hopefully the mikvah is fully funded and El Al chips in

Thanks @Dan for keeping on top of this and showing the good sides as well as giving a link so people can give back and show appreciation
 
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Chaikel on November 22, 2018, 01:21:23 PM
Beautiful article.
https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/275473/the-flight-002-election
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chayal101 on November 22, 2018, 05:59:26 PM
https://loyaltylobby.com/2018/11/22/el-al-accused-of-kidnapping-by-group-of-religious-travelers-following-five-hour-delay-at-new-york-jfk/#disqus_thread
Not a very nice 'outsiders' perspective on the story. I replied back to John from Loyaltylobby that I'm appalled at the wording used in this article...
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 22, 2018, 06:12:24 PM
Maybe try and help him understand by posting in the comment section. The claim by some they were "kidnapped" doesn't help.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 22, 2018, 06:16:45 PM
https://loyaltylobby.com/2018/11/22/el-al-accused-of-kidnapping-by-group-of-religious-travelers-following-five-hour-delay-at-new-york-jfk/#disqus_thread
Not a very nice 'outsiders' perspective on the story. I replied back to John from Loyaltylobby that I'm appalled at the wording used in this article...
Whoa! fakenews is not even the right word for this article, aside from calling Orthodox Jews "crazy" it was written without ANY basic research and they have ALL the facts wrong!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 22, 2018, 07:05:06 PM
Whoa! fakenews is not even the right word for this article, aside from calling Orthodox Jews "crazy" it was written without ANY basic research and they have ALL the facts wrong!
So please comment below. This way anyone who finishes the article, will immediately see in the first few comments what garbage it is...
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 22, 2018, 07:40:37 PM
Wow, that is some ignorance.
Someone should post a comment with links to the 4 stories I wrote on this flight.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehudaa on November 22, 2018, 07:40:40 PM
Whoa! fakenews is not even the right word for this article, aside from calling Orthodox Jews "crazy" it was written without ANY basic research and they have ALL the facts wrong!
They've replaced  'crazy orthodox passengers' with 'ultra orthodox passengers'. They still don't have their facts right though.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 22, 2018, 07:50:09 PM
They've replaced  'crazy orthodox passengers' with 'ultra orthodox passengers'. They still don't have their facts right though.
Educate them.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehudaa on November 22, 2018, 07:51:43 PM
Educate them.
Someone in the comments there already directed people to DDMS for the real story, so I have nothing more to add.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 22, 2018, 08:01:35 PM
Someone in the comments there already directed people to DDMS for the real story, so I have nothing more to add.
-1
That link just goes to the DDMS homepage
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 22, 2018, 08:37:25 PM
Beautiful article.
https://www.tabletmag.com/jewish-life-and-religion/275473/the-flight-002-election
Wow really beautiful read, and so true!

Thanks for posting.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 23, 2018, 02:44:07 PM
Lets see if this actually happens.. (IINM he flies F, so he dosent have another option for this route) As Dan says "Boycott till its cheaper"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 23, 2018, 03:59:37 PM
Lets see if this actually happens.. (IINM he flies F, so he dosent have another option for this route) As Dan says "Boycott till its cheaper"
On LY he might fly F. I've been with him on DeltaOne TLV-JFK.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Baglach on November 24, 2018, 12:16:20 PM
This story is not finished yet....
http://www.bhol.co.il/news/956115
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on November 24, 2018, 06:03:16 PM
This story is not finished yet....
http://www.bhol.co.il/news/956115
Lets see if this actually happens.. (IINM he flies F, so he dosent have another option for this route) As Dan says "Boycott till its cheaper"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on November 25, 2018, 01:09:45 AM
Lets see if this actually happens.. (IINM he flies F, so he dosent have another option for this route) As Dan says "Boycott till its cheaper"
Well F will soon no longer be an option on LY either
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 25, 2018, 08:44:27 AM
Amazing that nobody in the Chareidi side will own up to the fact that boarding this flight was poor judgment in the first place.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Moshe123 on November 25, 2018, 09:12:49 AM
Because it's irrelevant to the ElAl angle of the story that everyone is debating.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 10:01:20 AM
Amazing that nobody in the Chareidi side will own up to the fact that boarding this flight was poor judgment in the first place.
What am I, chopped liver?
Neither side is blameless here. El Al just made headlines as they outright lied.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 10:06:41 AM
Amazing that nobody in the Chareidi side will own up to the fact that boarding this flight was poor judgment in the first place.
Who didn't make this point?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 25, 2018, 10:08:18 AM
What am I, chopped liver?
Neither side is blameless here. El Al just made headlines as they outright lied.
I meant in the Israeli press.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 10:10:16 AM
I meant in the Israeli press.
The originators of fake news before fake news was cool.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 10:14:41 AM
I meant in the Israeli press.
Keep in mind, there were some 150 shomrei passengers, I'm sure that there was a "safety in numbers" delusion. Had each passenger been alone on such a flight, there is a much bigger chance they don't board.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 10:18:40 AM
El Al just made headlines as they outright lied.
Did anyone every provide what the pilot said? They were all recording 24/7 so you would think someone would have it on tape.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 25, 2018, 10:18:59 AM
Keep in mind, there were some 150 shomrei passengers, I'm sure that there was a "safety in numbers" delusion. Had each passenger been alone on such a flight, there is a much bigger chance they don't board.
I'm just upset because once whatever mistakes were made on both sides, elal still came through in getting everyone accommodated at a great cost to them. I'm sure they could have found a loophole about landing on shabbos if they wanted to.

It's upsetting that there's zero hakaras hatov that there's one airline in the world that would divert a flight and pay for hundreds of hotel rooms and send a charter flight motzash.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 10:19:33 AM
LY is probably never going to release that recording.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 10:22:55 AM
LY is probably never going to release that recording.
I was thinking from a passenger.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 25, 2018, 10:29:05 AM
LY is probably never going to release that recording.
Maybe the courts will force them to release it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 10:41:41 AM
I'm just upset because once whatever mistakes were made on both sides, elal still came through in getting everyone accommodated at a great cost to them. I'm sure they could have found a loophole about landing on shabbos if they wanted to.

It's upsetting that there's zero hakaras hatov that there's one airline in the world that would divert a flight and pay for hundreds of hotel rooms and send a charter flight motzash.
The pilot lied to passengers. Took off without doing pre-departure safety checks. Took off with dozens of unruly passengers - standard procedure is to return to the gate with even *1* such passenger. El Al breached who knows how many safety regulations to get the plane to Athens before shabbos to *save* money, not lose money. They don't fly on Shabbos and made those accommodations out of necessity for their bottom line, not because of the goodness of their hearts.
 
But even if none of this were true, they then deliberately and strategically fabricated the violence to slander Hareidim knowing full well the media would fall for it - and guess what? It worked. In our circles, the truth is out. But speak to the average shmo who heard about this flight, they'll tell you religious fanatics abused the crew.

This last part is so insanely disgusting and vile I want to smash my head against the wall just thinking that any frum Jew would defend El Al's behavior in any way at all.

The hakaras hatov goes to Chabad of Athens, and of that there has been plenty. If they, like many other Chabad houses, wouldn't have had enough food for 150, what would shabbos have looked like?

Passengers also have been effusive praising induvidual El Al employees. But El Al as a whole? They can go screw themselves back to Gander.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 25, 2018, 10:56:42 AM
The pilot lied to passengers. Took off without doing pre-departure safety checks. Took off with dozens of unruly passengers - standard procedure is to return to the gate with even *1* such passenger. El Al breached who knows how many safety regulations to get the plane to Athens before shabbos to *save* money, not lose money. They don't fly on Shabbos and made those accommodations out of necessity for their bottom line, not because of the goodness of their hearts.
 
But even if none of this were true, they then deliberately and strategically fabricated the violence to slander Hareidim knowing full well the media would fall for it - and guess what? It worked. In our circles, the truth is out. But speak to the average shmo who heard about this flight, they'll tell you religious fanatics abused the crew.

This last part is so insanely disgusting and vile I want to smash my head against the wall just thinking that any frum Jew would defend El Al's behavior in any way at all.

The hakaras hatov goes to Chabad of Athens, and of that there has been plenty. If they, like many other Chabad houses, wouldn't have had enough food for 150, what would shabbos have looked like?

Passengers also have been effusive praising induvidual El Al employees. But El Al as a whole? They can go screw themselves back to Gander.
1. Source that elal didn't do safety checks?
2. Ive heard many first hand claims that passangers weren't unruly.
3. Elal could have saved the msog money by landing in Israel and not adhering to their self imposed policy.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 25, 2018, 10:59:58 AM
1. Source that elal didn't do safety checks?
2. Ive heard many first hand claims that passangers weren't unruly.
3. Elal could have saved the msog money by landing in Israel and not adhering to their self imposed policy.
1) Multiple passengers including a reporter.
2) The pilot himself told ATC that passengers were unruly.
3) They can also save/make money by flying regurlarly on Shabbos.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 25, 2018, 11:02:56 AM
1) Multiple passengers including a reporter.
2) The pilot himself told ATC that passengers were unruly.
3) They can also save/make money by flying regurlarly on Shabbos.
I love how suddenly the goal posts can be moved such that unruly passangers is now the airlines fault, not the passangers fault.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 11:11:24 AM
1. Source that elal didn't do safety checks?
2. Ive heard many first hand claims that passangers weren't unruly.
3. Elal could have saved the msog money by landing in Israel and not adhering to their self imposed policy.
1) all the passengers saying they just took off.
2) getting up and asking to deplane is "unruly" by passenger behavior standards
3) there'$ a rea$on they have the policy. And once the policy is in place, you can't just flout it, they would be sued for far more and the boycott would have been immidiate and far reaching.

They saved money by diverting to Athens and they had NO idea if Chabad would have been able to handle the crowd or not. They couldn't care less.

And again, you are ignoring the main point that they deliberately slandered Jews to cover their @$$€$. AND IT WORKED! Imagine any other airline or company doing that to any other minority?! I mean twitter couldn't buy enough bandwith to handle the outrage. And you want people to be appreciative of that?!

There's a word for what they did - anti semitism. We need to stick up for ourselves and not let bigots lie to, dehumanize and then patronize us.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 11:12:06 AM
The pilot lied to passengers. Took off without doing pre-departure safety checks. Took off with dozens of unruly passengers - standard procedure is to return to the gate with even *1* such passenger. El Al breached who knows how many safety regulations to get the plane to Athens before shabbos to *save* money, not lose money. They don't fly on Shabbos and made those accommodations out of necessity for their bottom line, not because of the goodness of their hearts.
 
But even if none of this were true, they then deliberately and strategically fabricated the violence to slander Hareidim knowing full well the media would fall for it - and guess what? It worked. In our circles, the truth is out. But speak to the average shmo who heard about this flight, they'll tell you religious fanatics abused the crew.

This last part is so insanely disgusting and vile I want to smash my head against the wall just thinking that any frum Jew would defend El Al's behavior in any way at all.

The hakaras hatov goes to Chabad of Athens, and of that there has been plenty. If they, like many other Chabad houses, wouldn't have had enough food for 150, what would shabbos have looked like?

Passengers also have been effusive praising induvidual El Al employees. But El Al as a whole? They can go screw themselves back to Gander.
Good summary.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 11:14:26 AM
I love how suddenly the goal posts can be moved such that unruly passangers is now the airlines fault, not the passangers fault.
Can we leave goal posts out of this.  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 11:16:39 AM
For anyone who thinks "Anti Semitic" is over the top, please switch Hareidim for any other minority.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 11:20:26 AM
1) all the passengers saying they just took off.
2) getting up and asking to deplane is "unruly" by passenger behavior standards
3) there'$ a rea$on they have the policy. And once the policy is in place, you can't just flout it, they would be sued for far more and the boycott would have been immidiate and far reaching.

They saved money by diverting to Athens and they had NO idea if Chabad would have been able to handle the crowd or not. They couldn't care less.

And again, you are ignoring the main point that they deliberately slandered Jews to cover their @$$€$. AND IT WORKED! Imagine any other airline or company doing that to any other minority?! I mean twitter couldn't buy enough bandwith to handle the outrage. And you want people to be appreciative of that?!

There's a word for what they did - anti semitism. We need to stick up for ourselves and not let bigots lie to, dehumanize and then patronize us.

There are two concurrent stories going on here, which are constantly being confused:

1) ELAL'S total disrespect towards ALL of its passengers, where they truly give an impression that they feel that they are this benevolent great corporation that does everyone a huge favor by agreeing to transport them between various points and TLV.

2) The audacity and antisemitism of many, which was flamed by ELAL, and "Chareidim". Supposedly both during the flight, publicly blaming "Chareidim" for ELAL's decisions and actions, as well as after the flight with public statements that are yet to be retracted.

Kalman Liebeskind writes a good piece regarding #2 here (https://m.maariv.co.il/journalists/Article-672203). Though for every one of those, there are at least 3 that would easily make it into Der Stürmer.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 11:39:48 AM
For anyone who thinks "Anti Semitic" is over the top, please switch Hareidim for any other minority.
How about Muslims?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 11:43:55 AM
How about Muslims?
1,000,000% it would be panned as Islamaphobic and racist - and rightly so.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 11:48:09 AM
1,000,000% it would be panned as Islamaphobic and racist - and rightly so.
The right would have a field day with it. Also I haven't seen one piece on this in the MSM (cable news).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 11:55:19 AM
The originators of fake news before fake news was cool.

I am guessing that this is another one of their fake news items: https://travel.walla.co.il/item/3202798

While it would be very welcome to seem SQ flying to TLV, I doubt that it's happening yet. They wouldn't do anything that might anger the Malaysians.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 11:59:09 AM
I am guessing that this is another one of their fake news items:
You might want to add a warning don't click on the pictures/stories on the left side of the page.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 12:00:05 PM
The right would have a field day with it. Also I haven't seen one piece on this in the MSM (cable news).
Right, it's not big news outside of Israel, where the split between religious and non religious is sadly poisonous.

This story was on Drudge and look at the comments on all the air travel blogs that posted the story. They are cesspools of anti semitism clothed in virtuous enlightenment.

The same would apply to Muslims, but I feel the reports themselves wouldn't have the "crazy religious people" spin that this story has, especially among liberal outlets.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 12:03:45 PM
You might want to add a warning don't click on the pictures/stories on the left side of the page to change browser setting so that no pictures are loaded prior to opening anything on Walla.co.il.
FTFY
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 12:07:25 PM
Right, it's not big news outside of Israel, where the split between religious and non religious is sadly poisonous.

This story was on Drudge and look at the comments on all the air travel blogs that posted the story. They are cesspools of anti semitism clothed in virtuous enlightenment.

The same would apply to Muslims, but I feel the reports themselves wouldn't have the "crazy religious people" spin that this story has, especially among liberal outlets.
Blogs are cesspools of all types of comments. That's why I hardly ever read the comments except for a good laugh.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: smart man on November 25, 2018, 12:07:47 PM
Well F will soon no longer be an option on LY either
From my understanding not so quick. I've heard people have been pushing Elal to keep the 747 in service for longer.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 12:14:28 PM
Blogs are cesspools of all types of comments. That's why I hardly ever read the comments except for a good laugh.
True, but take the Loyalty Lobby post - the post itself called religious Jews crazy! Not the comments, the blog post. They have not addressed that. Then, my comment which didn't denigrate anyone but merely stated facts was "under moderation" for 2 days. A blatantly anti Semitic comment was (and is still) visible from the second it was posted.

Do you honestly believe they would every comment "crazy religious Muslims" or "crazy African Americans"?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 12:15:05 PM
Not sure under what to file this one:

https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001262058&fid=821

This morning Israeli news media was saying that if ELAL doesn't publicly apologize, elite members of it's Matmid club would come to their offices at LLBG to publicly cut up their Matmid memberhship cards. Story sounded ridiculous to me, as I would assume that elite members have better things to do with their time.

Seems like something actually did take place, and a grand total of ONE elite member publicly cut up his Matmid card.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: smart man on November 25, 2018, 12:16:59 PM
Not sure under what to file this one:

https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001262058&fid=821

This morning Israeli news media was saying that if ELAL doesn't publicly apologize, elite members of it's Matmid club would come to their offices at LLBG to publicly cut up their Matmid memberhship cards. Story sounded ridiculous to me, as I would assume that elite members have better things to do with their time.

Seems like something actually did take place, and a grand total of ONE elite member publicly cut up his Matmid card.
And apparently it wasn't even his membership card but a luggage tag.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 12:19:13 PM
True, but take the Loyalty Lobby post - the post itself called religious Jews crazy! Not the comments, the blog post. They have not addressed that. Then, my comment which didn't denigrate anyone but merely stated facts was "under moderation" for 2 days. A blatantly anti Semitic comment was (and is still) visible from the second it was posted.

Do you honestly believe they would every comment "crazy religious Muslims" or "crazy African Americans"?
Who is "Loyalty Lobby"? Never heard of them. Some of the big travel blogs that I did hear of were fair with their stories. Some did have to be shown the light.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 12:30:37 PM
Who is "Loyalty Lobby"? Never heard of them. Some of the big travel blogs that I did hear of were fair with their stories. Some did have to be shown the light.
Their post was linked in this thread, you said "educate them". We tried, didn't help.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 12:32:09 PM
Who is "Loyalty Lobby"? Never heard of them. Some of the big travel blogs that I did hear of were fair with their stories. Some did have to be shown the light.
They all maintained there is a side to the story that Hareidim were violent.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 12:33:05 PM
Their post was linked in this thread, you said "educate them". We tried, didn't help.
Sure it helped. I didn't check but I thought someone said he removed the word "crazy", no?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 12:34:47 PM
Sure it helped. I didn't check but I thought someone said he removed the word "crazy", no?
Sure did. No apology. No note that it was removed. And the rest of the story is *still* horribly wrong.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 25, 2018, 12:35:59 PM
https://mobile.kikar.co.il/article/298052
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 12:37:07 PM
True, but take the Loyalty Lobby post - the post itself called religious Jews crazy! Not the comments, the blog post. They have not addressed that. Then, my comment which didn't denigrate anyone but merely stated facts was "under moderation" for 2 days. A blatantly anti Semitic comment was (and is still) visible from the second it was posted.

Do you honestly believe they would every comment "crazy religious Muslims" or "crazy African Americans"?
Call them out here:
https://www.flyertalk.com/forum/external-miles-points-resources-723/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 12:37:50 PM
Sure did. No apology. No note that it was removed. And the rest of the story is *still* horribly wrong.
That's why I said educate him. Many of the problems is pure ignorance.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 12:43:58 PM
How about Muslims?

I know you don't like when I post Hebrew articles (it's about time that you start learning Hebrew and Yiddish, so we can have more fun), but you should at least try reading with the aid of Google translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maariv.co.il%2Fjournalists%2FArticle-672203&edit-text=
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 25, 2018, 12:54:01 PM
I know you don't like when I post Hebrew articles (it's about time that you start learning Hebrew and Yiddish, so we can have more fun), but you should at least try reading with the aid of Google translate: https://translate.google.com/translate?sl=auto&tl=en&js=y&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&u=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.maariv.co.il%2Fjournalists%2FArticle-672203&edit-text=
The problem is they translate words wrong all the time. Getting one word wrong changes the context of what they are saying. It would just get me in more trouble.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 12:57:31 PM
The problem is they translate words wrong all the time. Getting one word wrong changes the context of what they are saying. It would just get me in more trouble.

They've gotten a lot better. There are more bad English examples (which you would spot and might actually provide an alternative translation without having read or understood the original, just by using your human logic) than actual wrong word translations.

They are definitely at the forefront of AI when it comes to human language.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 12:57:54 PM
Was there not an instance where El Al blamed a delay on religious men for not sitting next to women when it turned out the delay was actually El Al's fault?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 25, 2018, 01:00:27 PM
I am guessing that this is another one of their fake news items: https://travel.walla.co.il/item/3202798

While it would be very welcome to seem SQ flying to TLV, I doubt that it's happening yet. They wouldn't do anything that might anger the Malaysians.

I don't think SQ is coming to TLV anytime soon, the rumor has been many times in the past. Many of SQ's staff are Malaysians and in their passport they have this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_passport#Israel - plus Malaysia won't allow SQ to overfly their airspace for TLV flights so guess how that will look like
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 01:03:49 PM
I don't think SQ is coming to TLV anytime soon, the rumor has been many times in the past. Many of SQ's staff are Malaysians and in their passport they have this https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Malaysian_passport#Israel - plus Malaysia won't allow SQ to overfly their airspace for TLV flights so guess how that will look like

Which is exactly why I said it is #Fake News, and the reasons you cite are what I've been saying in the SQ thread.

Anyone with a little bit of background information, as you have posted, would realize that this article is

at least 95% is a construct of the writer's imagination.

It was actually mentioned by me in this thread in order to emphasize and bring to light that fact.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 25, 2018, 01:07:42 PM
Which is exactly why I said it is #Fake News, and the reasons you cite are what I've been saying in the SQ thread.

I didn't see that in the SQ thread, I know this already for years and I have asked the crew on SQ when I flew R about 6 years ago
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 01:09:24 PM
Was there not an instance where El Al blamed a delay on religious men for not sitting next to women when it turned out the delay was actually El Al's fault?

There was.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 01:11:31 PM
There was.

Yet, even though the facts came to light on that one, and IINM ELAL came clean on that one after the facts came out, that doesn't stop the Israeli antisemitic writers to cite that event as something to blame "Chareidim" for (https://www.globes.co.il/news/article.aspx?did=1001261909).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 01:26:22 PM
There was.
Link?

I tried searching DDMS and DDF. Alas, I am no @TimT
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 25, 2018, 02:05:45 PM
And apparently it wasn't even his membership card but a luggage tag.
It was his actual FF card. I saw the picture. He's a Top Platinum which requires MUCH more flying than UA 1k requires.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Tuna Baygel on November 25, 2018, 02:19:47 PM
It was his actual FF card. I saw the picture. He's a Top Platinum which requires MUCH more flying than UA 1k requires.
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1630032/watch-rav-sholom-ber-sorotzkin-fulfils-promise-and-boycotts-el-al-cuts-masmid-card-for-news-reporters.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 02:35:23 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1630032/watch-rav-sholom-ber-sorotzkin-fulfils-promise-and-boycotts-el-al-cuts-masmid-card-for-news-reporters.html
What is the Masmid Program?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on November 25, 2018, 02:37:42 PM
What is the Masmid Program?
Not sure. We had a masmidim program in school where we learned at night. Maybe it's the adult version where they learn on planes.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 25, 2018, 02:40:57 PM
It was his actual FF card. I saw the picture. He's a Top Platinum which requires MUCH more flying than UA 1k requires.
TP status (7k base miles) would require a minimum of 17.5 RT paid flights to NY in the most discounted business class, or at least 7 RT paid full fare flights in First class
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 25, 2018, 02:41:43 PM
What is the Masmid Program?
ALOL
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 02:42:35 PM
TP status (7k base miles) would require a minimum of 17.5 RT paid flights to NY in the most discounted business class, or at least 7 RT paid full fare flights in First class
Someone should tell him about GS.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 25, 2018, 02:45:10 PM
Not sure. We had a masmidim program in school where we learned at night. Maybe it's the adult version where they learn on planes.
When I was in 7th grade there was a Masmid Govoha program that was run out of Lakewood. They gave scratch off tickets for learning and usually most didn't win, but one week for some reason they all won.
I was supposed to win a couple hundred bucks IIRC and I was elated until they came back and said it was a mistake and didn't pay out any of it  ::)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 02:46:40 PM
When I was in 7th grade there was a Masmid Govoha program that was run out of Lakewood. They gave scratch off tickets for learning and usually most didn't win, but one week for some reason they all won.
I was supposed to win a couple hundred bucks IIRC and I was elated until they came back and said it was a mistake and didn't pay out any of it  ::)

Sounds like it was run by some ELAL exec.

All jokes aside. I wish someone would actually shift the discussion to where it should be, about the faulty corporate DNA of ELAL. Not being able to distinguish assets from liabilities.

Once we're done with that, we can definitely fault those Shomrei Shabbos that boarded the flight without reciting "I am now boarding a flight that is scheduled to land approximately 3 hours before Shabbos. There are many things that are beyond anyone's control that can cause this flight to land in TLV much closer to sundown, or be diverted elsewhere. I am consciously aware of those facts and have decided to board this flight."
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on November 25, 2018, 02:50:24 PM
When I was in 7th grade there was a Masmid Govoha program that was run out of Lakewood. They gave scratch off tickets for learning and usually most didn't win, but one week for some reason they all won.
I was supposed to win a couple hundred bucks IIRC and I was elated until they came back and said it was a mistake and didn't pay out any of it  ::)
Might've been a branch of this. Did they revoke the prizes because the kids were making trouble?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YesThatsMe on November 25, 2018, 03:15:30 PM
When I was in 7th grade there was a Masmid Govoha program that was run out of Lakewood. They gave scratch off tickets for learning and usually most didn't win, but one week for some reason they all won.
I was supposed to win a couple hundred bucks IIRC and I was elated until they came back and said it was a mistake and didn't pay out any of it  ::)


As a son-in-law of someone in the Satmar community who has paid for some of RSBS tickets:


1) He flies with what he gets from whoever pays for the ticket. He is not loyal to any airline.
2) He is a current 1K.
3) He hates Delta.
4) His favorite flights are the Motzai Shabbos from TLV, and the Thursday 4ish from Newark (United).
5) He's really mad about this. Though he knows as well as all that no boycott is coming, he is trying to turn this political. He's thoroughly pissed at Gafni for not showing up. Though I don't get what he was thinking - an MK can only really fly ELAL on taxpayer money!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on November 25, 2018, 03:22:15 PM
It was his actual FF card.
Actually looked like one of his TP luggage tags (with the hole on the right side)  ;D
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 03:23:59 PM

As a son-in-law of someone in the Satmar community who has paid for some of RSBS tickets:


1) He flies with what he gets from whoever pays for the ticket. He is not loyal to any airline.
2) He is a current 1K.
3) He hates Delta.
4) His favorite flights are the Motzai Shabbos from TLV, and the Thursday 4ish from Newark (United).
5) He's really mad about this. Though he knows as well as all that no boycott is coming, he is trying to turn this political. He's thoroughly pissed at Gafni for not showing up. Though I don't get what he was thinking - an MK can only really fly ELAL on taxpayer money!

1 & 2 are not surprising.
Why does he hate Delta?
#4 is not surprising. Though he might have to rethink, which might be part of why he's so upset.
#5 I am guessing that what makes him most mad in the this case was that he was misled and publicly made part of the problem.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 03:24:50 PM
Actually looked like one of his TP luggage tags (with the hole on the right side)  ;D
What difference does it make at this point?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YesThatsMe on November 25, 2018, 03:30:26 PM
1 & 2 are not surprising.
Why does he hate Delta?
#4 is not surprising. Though he might have to rethink, which might be part of why he's so upset.
#5 I am guessing that what makes him most mad in the this case was that he was misled and publicly made part of the problem.


He got pissed when "Delta upstairs" disappeared. IIRC they changed planes a couple of years ago.


They made him get on the mike to say all will be well, they turned off the screen when he pointed out it's landing an hour later than what they had him say. He's livid.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 25, 2018, 03:37:38 PM

He got pissed when "Delta upstairs" disappeared. IIRC they changed planes a couple of years ago.
So it's all about the 747?


They made him get on the mike to say all will be well, they turned off the screen when he pointed out it's landing an hour later than what they had him say. He's livid.
"They made him"??? What did they do? Hold a gun to his head or threaten to take away his Platinum status?

I hate to say it, but I think he's expressing anger at ELAL when the actual frustration might be with his own actions, which were well intentioned but not well thought through. He really wanted to get to Eretz Yisroel for Shabbos, and wasn't thinking things through, both on his own private level, and more so when he made public statements.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 25, 2018, 03:38:03 PM
Was there not an instance where El Al blamed a delay on religious men for not sitting next to women when it turned out the delay was actually El Al's fault?
There have also been times when they have delayed flights.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 25, 2018, 03:45:20 PM
There have also been times when they have delayed flights.
I'll give you a minute to see if you can figure out the difference between individuals behaving like jerks and a company tarring an entire group with the jerk brush to cover their incompetence.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 25, 2018, 04:10:11 PM
He actually sits "downstairs" on El Al, as he most often sits in F (either purchases F or gets upgrade from J)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: smart man on November 25, 2018, 04:33:59 PM
And apparently it wasn't even his membership card but a luggage tag.

It was his actual FF card. I saw the picture. He's a Top Platinum which requires MUCH more flying than UA 1k requires.

Actually looked like one of his TP luggage tags (with the hole on the right side)  ;D
+1 saw it too (see attached)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: smart man on November 25, 2018, 04:35:46 PM
What difference does it make at this point?
No difference.
Since when does it have to make a difference to argue here :P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Boruch999 on November 25, 2018, 05:08:22 PM
The originators of fake news before fake news was cool.
The Israeli media has been doing this far longer and far more blatantly than US MSM.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on November 25, 2018, 07:20:28 PM
Amazing that nobody in the Chareidi side will own up to the fact that boarding this flight was poor judgment in the first place.
Individual VS corporate mess ups, there are many people that make poor decisions out there.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 26, 2018, 03:33:50 AM
Apology accepted. Rav Sorotzkin boarded an El Al flight to NY
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on November 26, 2018, 04:17:30 AM
Apology accepted. Rav Sorotzkin boarded an El Al flight to NY
I must have missed the apology ::)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 26, 2018, 04:30:12 AM
I must have missed the apology ::)
Agreed. Was barely an apology, IMO. Though, it's hard to be such a frequent flyer from Israel and avoid El Al....
He needs El Al probably more than they need him.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mikebg on November 26, 2018, 04:41:29 AM
There was no apology. Just a clarification, which amongst other things basically whitewashed EL AL. EL AL are taking advantage of the passengers. You can be quite sure that they will be offered a free flight to Europe [but not at a peak period] in economy [even if they had been on a First Class ticket on the 002]. EL AL offered no apology for their crews (assuming it was not the company itself) spreading blame for the incident on the "chareidim". They did not apologise for accusing them of violence (they just said they had never accused anyone of violence, which is a lie). They have not mentioned that the pilot is to be disciplined for breach of safety regulations and for lying to the passengers. They have not admitted that they made a series of very major mistakes - instead they said their employees acted in an exemplary fashion. In short, they have done NOTHING that had been asked of them, but Sorotzkin and Co have bought the whole package. Unbelievable!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 26, 2018, 04:44:51 AM
There was no apology. Just a clarification, which amongst other things basically whitewashed EL AL. EL AL are taking advantage of the passengers. You can be quite sure that they will be offered a free flight to Europe [but not at a peak period] in economy [even if they had been on a First Class ticket on the 002]. EL AL offered no apology for their crews (assuming it was not the company itself) spreading blame for the incident on the "chareidim". They did not apologise for accusing them of violence (they just said they had never accused anyone of violence, which is a lie). They have not mentioned that the pilot is to be disciplined for breach of safety regulations and for lying to the passengers. They have not admitted that they made a series of very major mistakes - instead they said their employees acted in an exemplary fashion. In short, they have done NOTHING that had been asked of them, but Sorotzkin and Co have bought the whole package. Unbelievable!
Well said
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Emkay on November 26, 2018, 05:09:15 AM
https://m.jpost.com/Israel-News/El-AL-offers-free-flight-to-Europe-to-passengers-of-nightmare-flight-572820
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mikebg on November 26, 2018, 05:26:58 AM
The crazy thing is that this is sooooo typical of Israeli management. Never admit you are wrong. Never admit you are wrong. Never admit you are wrong. Never admit you are wrong.

Anywhere else the company would have apologised profusely (with full page ads in all of the major newspapers) probably fired the captain and any crew members who slandered the passengers on Twitter, and any high level management who were responsible for the whole episode (in particular, whoever told the captain to ignore the passengers' request to leave the aircraft). The passengers would also have been given compensation which would be sufficient for them to want to remain with the airline despite the traumatic events they had endured.

Nobody in Israel EVER takes responsibility. EVER.

One reason I would never invest in any Israeli company, no matter how promising their prospects might be.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 26, 2018, 05:42:24 AM
The crazy thing is that this is sooooo typical of Israeli management. Never admit you are wrong. Never admit you are wrong. Never admit you are wrong. Never admit you are wrong.

Anywhere else the company would have apologised profusely (with full page ads in all of the major newspapers) probably fired the captain and any crew members who slandered the passengers on Twitter, and any high level management who were responsible for the whole episode (in particular, whoever told the captain to ignore the passengers' request to leave the aircraft). The passengers would also have been given compensation which would be sufficient for them to want to remain with the airline despite the traumatic events they had endured.

Nobody in Israel EVER takes responsibility. EVER.

One reason I would never invest in any Israeli company, no matter how promising their prospects might be.
It's not davka Israeli. The current CEO is a self hating Jew and can't get himself to apologise. If he wasn't afraid for his job, he wouldn't issue the statement he issued either.
Btw, what is someone who lives in the US supposed to do with a RT ticket to Europe? The guy is a moron. I've said that long ago.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 26, 2018, 07:36:42 AM
http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/255271
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: how on November 26, 2018, 09:22:04 AM
Btw, what is someone who lives in the US supposed to do with a RT ticket to Europe?
That part makes sense. The customers were not happy with their trip to Athens so they are getting a complimentary ticket to Athens.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on November 26, 2018, 09:44:46 AM
Unless Rav sorotkin is getting additional compensation not reported, I fail to see how elal satisfied hix demands, unless he has no other travel options that work for him.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on November 26, 2018, 10:13:53 AM
The free tickets to Europe is only for them to make more money for baggage fees ($70 RT?).
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on November 26, 2018, 09:05:11 PM
Well that took a while
https://thepointsguy.com/news/el-al-offers-free-round-trip-ticket-to-passengers-on-shabbat-diverted-flight/
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: PlatinumGuy on November 26, 2018, 09:26:30 PM
Unless Rav sorotkin is getting additional compensation not reported, I fail to see how elal satisfied hix demands, unless he has no other travel options that work for him.
Doubt he cares about an apology, he probably only wanted attention for asking for it
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: thaber on November 27, 2018, 02:29:00 AM

As a son-in-law of someone in the Satmar community who has paid for some of RSBS tickets:


1) He flies with what he gets from whoever pays for the ticket. He is not loyal to any airline.
2) He is a current 1K.
3) He hates Delta.
4) His favorite flights are the Motzai Shabbos from TLV, and the Thursday 4ish from Newark (United).
5) He's really mad about this. Though he knows as well as all that no boycott is coming, he is trying to turn this political. He's thoroughly pissed at Gafni for not showing up. Though I don't get what he was thinking - an MK can only really fly ELAL on taxpayer money!
Just being a yenta, what does he do that he flies so much? I thought he's a rosh yeshiva? apparently he was back in the states a few days later, and he flies tens of times yearly, and people pay full far J tickets to fly him here.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on November 27, 2018, 02:53:30 AM
Just being a yenta, what does he do that he flies so much? I thought he's a rosh yeshiva? apparently he was back in the states a few days later, and he flies tens of times yearly, and people pay full far J tickets to fly him here.
He runs one of worlds largest network of kollelim and yeshivos (possibly the biggest). He raises many millions annually.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: thaber on November 27, 2018, 03:01:36 AM
He runs one of worlds largest network of kollelim and yeshivos (possibly the biggest). He raises many millions annually.
thanks, definitely seems that way. was trying to figure out the Satmar connection. Amazing for a relatively young seeming fellow.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: thaber on November 27, 2018, 09:51:15 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-el-al-s-big-fat-greek-mistake-1.6695413 definitely read DDMS :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 27, 2018, 09:54:03 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-el-al-s-big-fat-greek-mistake-1.6695413 definitely read DDMS :)
To bad more blogs don't report this part "passengers who were concerned over desecrating the Sabbath". It would give non-Jews a better understanding. 
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 29, 2018, 10:27:49 AM
Stick a fork in this one until the next time?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on November 29, 2018, 10:40:08 AM
Stick a fork in this one until the next time?
You have any other suggestions?  :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 29, 2018, 10:47:53 AM
You have any other suggestions?  :)
A real boycott. What percent of their passengers are religious Jews?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 29, 2018, 10:53:47 AM
A real boycott. What percent of their passengers are religious Jews?
Estimates circulated say about 20%, though on NYC and LHR routes it might be higher.

That being said, I think turning this into a "religious" issue is a mistake. The problem is their culture of disdain towards their paying customers, and absolute Israeli arrogance.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on November 29, 2018, 10:57:28 AM
Estimates circulated say about 20%, though on NYC and LHR routes it might be higher.

That being said, I think turning this into a "religious" issue is a mistake. The problem is their culture of disdain towards their paying customers, and absolute Israeli arrogance.
OK I was under the impression they treat the religious passengers worse.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Dan on November 29, 2018, 11:59:59 AM
https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-el-al-s-big-fat-greek-mistake-1.6695413 definitely read DDMS :)
Paywall bypass:
https://www.facebook.com/haaretzcom/posts/10156695733246341?__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARD2b5AbJup3_I1P82HG37MWKt5lahVEOfaNF9GtZwdqKM60sq0eANLR11s7Bffi0o0Y0cG-oqOFwGU8vxRfzRKHvwJRVWt5dIeB5_bHiuLfIeMwGoz0WD7l1x0pJuVqM6tLrveMKaL1PqQcLVh8R0nEhwyC1AfggJcOyDsCjRSrirCwbUSqMOnITM2iTawqa5h0aNX77roz0HwsfTO639Uyegsaf5bpes4xZ46DbNH0a_os6SPFi_Rb0SrnfNVNj-ORdJ_mPhLT6f8KH8ySxEXhF1eAoahonqxnz0jKBl2GJdcrsk2FjW3mNnjXPYUYCdkouhC2t7HVya-p7A&__tn__=-R
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on November 29, 2018, 12:04:33 PM
OK I was under the impression they treat the religious passengers worse.

That might be true, as I have never flown with them as a "non-religious" person. However, if you get rid of all the noise, and look just at the facts of the most recent incident, you will realize that they were equally disrespectful towards ALL passengers. It's a shame that this was allowed to become a Shomer Shabbos vs. non-Shomer Shabbos issue, when in reality the story is a story of an Airline's total disrespect for its paying customers, regardless of which box you want to put those customers into, if you are so inclined.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehuda57 on November 29, 2018, 06:58:10 PM
http://bit.ly/ElAlForward
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: YesThatsMe on December 04, 2018, 12:01:57 PM
thanks, definitely seems that way. was trying to figure out the Satmar connection. Amazing for a relatively young seeming fellow.

He's the kind of guy that Gvirim seek appointments with. A league of his own no fundraiser ever got to.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: iambarry on December 05, 2018, 02:18:29 AM
BTW - general paywall bypass for any Haaretz story, WSJ, and many more: outline.com/OriginalURL.  For example: https://outline.com/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-el-al-s-big-fat-greek-mistake-1.6695413

Paywall bypass:
https://www.facebook.com/haaretzcom/posts/10156695733246341?__xts__%5B0%5D=68.ARD2b5AbJup3_I1P82HG37MWKt5lahVEOfaNF9GtZwdqKM60sq0eANLR11s7Bffi0o0Y0cG-oqOFwGU8vxRfzRKHvwJRVWt5dIeB5_bHiuLfIeMwGoz0WD7l1x0pJuVqM6tLrveMKaL1PqQcLVh8R0nEhwyC1AfggJcOyDsCjRSrirCwbUSqMOnITM2iTawqa5h0aNX77roz0HwsfTO639Uyegsaf5bpes4xZ46DbNH0a_os6SPFi_Rb0SrnfNVNj-ORdJ_mPhLT6f8KH8ySxEXhF1eAoahonqxnz0jKBl2GJdcrsk2FjW3mNnjXPYUYCdkouhC2t7HVya-p7A&__tn__=-R
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on December 05, 2018, 05:08:36 PM
BTW - general paywall bypass for any Haaretz story, WSJ, and many more: outline.com/OriginalURL.  For example: https://outline.com/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-el-al-s-big-fat-greek-mistake-1.6695413
Thanks, very helpful
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shulem92 on December 05, 2018, 05:40:14 PM
BTW - general paywall bypass for any Haaretz story, WSJ, and many more: outline.com/OriginalURL.  For example: https://outline.com/https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-el-al-s-big-fat-greek-mistake-1.6695413
cool
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Yehudaa on December 07, 2018, 08:42:08 AM
El Al passengers stranded in Ukraine

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/255857

El Al passengers on Flight 2652 that was scheduled to take off Friday from Boryspil in Kiev to Ben Gurion Airport was delayed because of a technical problem.

As a result, the passengers will remain in a hotel in the Ukraine until Shabbat ends.

The flight was supposed to take off at 10:45 local time.

The passengers boarded the plane after a delay but as it taxied on the runway, a second malfunction became apparent and the takeoff was cancelled.

The passengers were asked to disembark. El Al apologized and said it would provide them with accommodations in Kiev.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: 159dallas on December 07, 2018, 03:19:01 PM
El Al passengers stranded in Ukraine

http://www.israelnationalnews.com/News/News.aspx/255857

El Al passengers on Flight 2652 that was scheduled to take off Friday from Boryspil in Kiev to Ben Gurion Airport was delayed because of a technical problem.

As a result, the passengers will remain in a hotel in the Ukraine until Shabbat ends.

The flight was supposed to take off at 10:45 local time.

The passengers boarded the plane after a delay but as it taxied on the runway, a second malfunction became apparent and the takeoff was cancelled.

The passengers were asked to disembark. El Al apologized and said it would provide them with accommodations in Kiev.

Why didn't they just take off and divert to greece :)
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 08, 2018, 10:53:16 PM
Why didn't they just take off and divert to greece :)
They didn't want more violence by you know who.  :P
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elit on December 12, 2018, 11:44:46 PM
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1643356/shocking-el-al-incident-girl-18-ordered-off-flight-forced-to-undress-searched-without-explanation.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Jellybelly on December 12, 2018, 11:47:22 PM
Just saw that story and came here to see if it was posted yet
Crazy if true!!!!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: mendy from lakewood on December 12, 2018, 11:52:11 PM
Sounds really crazy- I wonder how true it is.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: elya on December 12, 2018, 11:54:36 PM
Definitely a very large part of this story is missing.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shaulyaakov on December 13, 2018, 06:54:47 AM
Just saw that story and came here to see if it was posted yet
Crazy if true!!!!
Elal has been doing this to people for years. Usually it doesn't make the news since they're Arabs.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: shapsam on December 13, 2018, 09:28:35 AM
Definitely a very large part of this story is missing.
Why definitely? Totally makes sense that it's exactly what happened.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ChaimMoskowitz on December 13, 2018, 10:56:19 AM
Why definitely?
Because it is one side of the story.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Emkay on December 13, 2018, 10:58:33 AM
Why definitely? Totally makes sense that it's exactly what happened.
YWN is reliably unreliable.
And this story does not make sense as written.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Boruch999 on December 13, 2018, 12:04:40 PM
YWN is reliably unreliable.
And this story does not make sense as written.
+1
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: miles lover on December 13, 2018, 01:37:41 PM
YWN is reliably unreliable.
And this story does not make sense as written.
+100
Ywn is a disgusting website
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: zale on December 14, 2018, 03:27:32 PM
YWN is reliably unreliable.
And this story does not make sense as written.

What could that girl have possibly done to deserve that? Said something stupid?

Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: as2 on December 14, 2018, 04:59:46 PM
What could that girl have possibly done to deserve that? Said something stupid?
That for the other side of the story to answer, not us.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: a good yeshiva bachur on December 15, 2018, 11:34:56 AM
Elal has been doing this to people for years. Usually it doesn't make the news since they're Arabs.
since when do seminary girls look like arabs?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Emkay on December 15, 2018, 04:00:58 PM
What could that girl have possibly done to deserve that? Said something stupid?
Who says this even happened at all like this?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on December 15, 2018, 05:16:30 PM
And even if every detail is true (which is hard to believe), it's not very clever to answer a security agent that the question they are asking is irrelevant. Answering stupidly, raises red flags.
Tip: When asked if you have something sharp or something that can look like an explosive in your baggage, don't ever be the wise guy who answers sarcastically "yeeah... Suuuure I do". It's not worth it! You have no idea how they can treat an "innocent yeshiva bocher/Bais Yakov girl"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Ygold on December 20, 2018, 09:24:50 AM
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on December 20, 2018, 10:17:03 AM

Nothing to do with El Al
UA has had more saver award in J than I've ever seen in a single week. It all ends next week. NYC to TLV this week, you weren't able to find a vacant seat. How do they explain that?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Ygold on December 20, 2018, 02:39:37 PM
Nothing to do with El Al
UA has had more saver award in J than I've ever seen in a single week. It all ends next week. NYC to TLV this week, you weren't able to find a vacant seat. How do they explain that?

These flights seem oddly pretty empty I must say..

Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on December 20, 2018, 03:32:05 PM
These flights seem oddly pretty empty I must say..


I already answered you. I'd like to see a picture of the United flight the same time. I beg you if you can PLEASE find me a seat on one of the El Al flights leaving NYC today to TLV. They are all OVERBOOKED!
The last 2 weeks of December are probably the least popular dates flying Ex-TLV in the entire year. Come Jan 1, and the flights are sold out once again. In addition to travel being slow ex-TLV, they even added flights from TLV this week to have more capacity from the US to TLV. This is typical fake-news, leaving out the details from all around....
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yochai on December 20, 2018, 04:01:38 PM
I already answered you. I'd like to see a picture of the United flight the same time. I beg you if you can PLEASE find me a seat on one of the El Al flights leaving NYC today to TLV. They are all OVERBOOKED!
The last 2 weeks of December are probably the least popular dates flying Ex-TLV in the entire year. Come Jan 1, and the flights are sold out once again. In addition to travel being slow ex-TLV, they even added flights from TLV this week to have more capacity from the US to TLV. This is typical fake-news, leaving out the details from all around....
I totally agree. I’ve flown a 2 am flight from Rome to TLV on Alitalia with 5 people on board. They add these flights when there’s high demand ex-TLX
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: Baglach on December 20, 2018, 04:09:24 PM
I already answered you. I'd like to see a picture of the United flight the same time. I beg you if you can PLEASE find me a seat on one of the El Al flights leaving NYC today to TLV. They are all OVERBOOKED!
The last 2 weeks of December are probably the least popular dates flying Ex-TLV in the entire year. Come Jan 1, and the flights are sold out once again. In addition to travel being slow ex-TLV, they even added flights from TLV this week to have more capacity from the US to TLV. This is typical fake-news, leaving out the details from all around....

Well said, classic fake news. There aren't many ppl flying from tlv for Christmas to NY come Jan 1 all flights are full
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on December 25, 2018, 12:17:40 AM
https://m.jpost.com/Diaspora/Think-tank-Israel-must-fix-US-Jewry-relations-or-risk-natl-security-575238/amp
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: davidrotts63 on December 25, 2018, 06:00:33 AM
I already answered you. I'd like to see a picture of the United flight the same time. I beg you if you can PLEASE find me a seat on one of the El Al flights leaving NYC today to TLV. They are all OVERBOOKED!
The last 2 weeks of December are probably the least popular dates flying Ex-TLV in the entire year. Come Jan 1, and the flights are sold out once again. In addition to travel being slow ex-TLV, they even added flights from TLV this week to have more capacity from the US to TLV. This is typical fake-news, leaving out the details from all around....
Did you forgot that there is no way to know if these videos are indeed from NY. Doubtful.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: chff on December 26, 2018, 05:54:35 PM
Nothing to do with El Al
UA has had more saver award in J than I've ever seen in a single week. It all ends next week. NYC to TLV this week, you weren't able to find a vacant seat. How do they explain that?
I flew out on Xmas Eve a few years ago and the airport was deserted, and as other has mentioned every year in Dec you can see saver space on UA

Maybe I should switch jobs and become a reporter and write articles on non-stories
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on December 26, 2018, 05:59:41 PM
Maybe I should switch jobs and become a reporter and write articles on non-stories

So that after that you can change jobs and become an Amazon delivery person (https://forums.dansdeals.com/index.php?topic=13937.msg2035645#msg2035645)?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on December 26, 2018, 06:37:48 PM
Maybe I should switch jobs and become a reporter and write articles on non-stories
Like this:   ???
https://www.theyeshivaworld.com/news/israel-news/1651479/kallahs-ring-gets-stuck-on-finger-during-her-chasunah.html
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: sguitarist18 on December 30, 2018, 12:55:17 PM
Probably not published anywhere...My dad just flew to Israel, young non-religious guy wanted to put his skateboard in overhead baggage compartment, even though it took up too much room.

The airline staff told him to remove it, he refused; they asked him to get ff the plane, he refused. They finally had to have everyone get off the plane, and then re-board without him.

Can you imagine if a similar story had been about a frum guy who didn't want to sit next to a woman?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on December 30, 2018, 01:03:31 PM
Probably not published anywhere...My dad just flew to Israel, young non-religious guy wanted to put his skateboard in overhead baggage compartment, even though it took up too much room.

The airline staff told him to remove it, he refused; they asked him to get ff the plane, he refused. They finally had to have everyone get off the plane, and then re-board without him.

Can you imagine if a similar story had been about a frum guy who didn't want to sit next to a woman?

Need to make sure this get to Israeli MSM ASAP.

Any video footage? Without that it's just a case of VOIDH!
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: a good yeshiva bachur on January 01, 2019, 12:06:40 PM
the thread title should be changed to "Hate on elal Master thread"
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: coralsnake on January 01, 2019, 01:03:47 PM
These flights seem oddly pretty empty I must say..


I just flew Elal EWR-TLV on 12/26 and TLV-EWR on 12/30 and both flights didn’t have one empty seat.

On that note- it was my first time flying LY in close to 20 years and I was very impressed with the both flight crews. I wasn’t even yelled at once, which was somewhat of a disappointment.

There was also a chareidi man sitting in an aisle seat next to a woman and asking everyone if they’d switch with him and nobody did. So he finally took his seat when it was time for takeoff. Didn’t make a scene. I was surprised when I checked the news the following day that this incident wasn’t reported by any news outlets. 
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: sguitarist18 on January 01, 2019, 02:36:15 PM
Need to make sure this get to Israeli MSM ASAP.

Any video footage? Without that it's just a case of VOIDH!

Someone actually took out their cell phone to video, and flight crew told them to put it away.

Don't know if this was El Al, though.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: tavster on January 01, 2019, 02:37:21 PM
On that note- it was my first time flying LY in close to 20 years
How come you decided to fly LY after a 20 years break?
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: coralsnake on January 01, 2019, 02:45:54 PM
How come you decided to fly LY after a 20 years break?
It was a short trip and I needed very specific flight times to maximize time on the ground and minimize time away from family and work. It also happened to be the cheapest.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on January 01, 2019, 03:13:07 PM
I wasn’t even yelled at once,
Happens once in 20 Years.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on January 01, 2019, 06:25:24 PM
Happens once in 20 Years.
Very wise comment, though that was in 2 directions so it's at least twice in 20 yrs...
Jokes aside, as noted in the past, most who bash the airline haven't even ever flown it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: LETSGOCUSTOM on January 01, 2019, 06:41:26 PM
Not true
I’ve flown it till I realized every airline is possibly better
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yandmk on January 01, 2019, 06:51:03 PM
Not true
I’ve flown it till I realized every airline is possibly better
Are you most?

Very wise comment, though that was in 2 directions so it's at least twice in 20 yrs...
Jokes aside, as noted in the past, most who bash the airline haven't even ever flown it.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on January 01, 2019, 07:32:10 PM
Are you most?
Am I?

Though TBH I've also had very bad experience with IB, but IINM that was before they became part of IAG. Booked on them for a February flight.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: yesitsme on January 01, 2019, 10:50:17 PM
Not true
I’ve flown it till I realized every airline is possibly better
Correct I used to fly exclusive ELAL, till I Once had no choice and flew united, I  felt like I discovered the 8th continent.

BTW where do you take that MOST from?

to test if a company/person is good isn't when everything goes smooth, it's how they handle issues that arise, ELAL would most of the time if possible make YOU the problem.

בשלושה דברים אדם ניכר בכוסו בכיסו ובכעסו
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: coralsnake on January 02, 2019, 09:25:59 AM
Very wise comment, though that was in 2 directions so it's at least twice in 20 yrs...
Jokes aside, as noted in the past, most who bash the airline haven't even ever flown it.
I should have added that DL and UA are still better.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on January 02, 2019, 09:51:33 AM
I should have added that DL and UA are still better.
Totally different corporate DNA.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: ExGingi on January 06, 2019, 08:52:24 AM
Just got word from a family member that's on EK flight IST-DXB. Plane moved from gate with passengers still standing in the aisles.

Flight attendants trying to convince people to switch seats while passengers standing in aisles and plane taxiing. No shouting, just people refusing to sit. Eventually everyone sat down and plane took off.
Title: Re: El al flight arriving close to Shabbos - again
Post by: SearchGuy on May 28, 2019, 11:57:55 AM
https://www.ynet.co.il/articles/0,7340,L-5516734,00.html#autoplay
Now a lawsuit