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Re: Law School Hi - I am lobbying to change the rule at my firm re vacation days for the holidays. Currently we need to use some of our limited vacation days for Yom tovim, but Iíve been told that we try and match what other firms are doing.

Can the oilem tell me what their firmís policy is? I need the firm name too so please DM if donít want it public.

Thanks

September 20, 2018, 08:33:40 AM
1
Re: Corona virus and your shul Dear Friends,

The news on the COVID-19 front shows more and more signs that home isolation and social distancing have been effective measures toward leveling the curve. That gives us something to be genuinely hopeful about.

At the same time, this necessitates a very serious call for caution. We can easily lose what our hard work and sacrifice has won for our community and our society. My message today is about how essential it is to continue to do what weíre doing. Let us celebrate the signs of hope but not let them prevent us from accurately seeing the bigger picture.
 
I want to acknowledge the sacrifices we have already made, for a moment.
 
For working people, confinement away from the work place has been a real hardship on many levels. For many, it has impacted their earnings in a significant way.

For children and their parents, the closure of school buildings and the distance learning model have created tremendous stress.  It has been extremely challenging, as well, for teachers and principals, who have been forced to create digital learning systems in a matter of days. Zoom is a great tool, but it cannot possibly replace the classroom. School tuition collections are down because some parents are unable to afford their payments without steady income.

There is so much anxiety about the future, about whether and when we will return to life as we knew it before March 2020, or whether there will be a strange and limiting ďnew normal.Ē
 
We wonder whether kids will be able to return to school before the end of June. What about graduations? Will summer day camps and sleep away camps be able to open? We wonder whether our planned milestone events will take place.
 
So many plans are on hold. This is a source of tremendous stress.

We, along with many religious Americans, wonder when we can return to our houses of worship. We urgently want to be able to return to the synagogue for daily services as well as Shabbos services.

We have sacrificed a lot. We are ready to be done with all this sacrifice.
 
So it is tempting to seize upon the good news and to begin to relax the inconvenient restrictions. But this would be a grave error.
 
The Talmud in Shabbos 151b tells us that we desecrate the Sabbath to save the life of a day-old child so that the child will live to be able to observe many Sabbaths. When we desecrate a precious commandment in order to save a life (and in this case many lives), we do so with a belief in the infinite value of human life, and with the hope and belief that the sacrifice will ultimately lead to the exponential sanctification of that very commandment, through enabling its observance many, many, many more times. 

That is the situation we find ourselves in. We must be patient for as long as necessary in order to insure that once we relax restrictions, we will not be confronted with a second lethal surge. (Let me remind all of us that after restrictions were eased, there were two deadly surges in the 1918 Flu pandemic). If we are patient, we will have many good days ahead of us. We will be together for many more daily minyanim and Shabbos services, if only we remain patient now.

Last week, fifty-seven community rabbis sent a letter cautioning all of us to carefully follow the safety guidelines that our doctors unanimously issued. Only four rabbis did not sign.
 
Most of us are not physicians. COVID-19 is a medical problem that only capable physicians can responsibly address. This is not the domain of laymen or Rabbis.
 
In a separate letter, thirteen Five Towns Rabbis (all of whom signed the other letter) stated that we will only recommend returning to public services when our panel of distinguished doctors gives us a green light.

A well-meaning Five Towns Jew wrote a letter to Yeshiva World News criticizing the letter signed by the fifty-seven rabbis in which we intructed our constituents not to have any outdoor gatherings or services. He correctly points out that there are violations of the socializing rules in the streets and outside of food stores. He asks, why can't there be services as well?
 
But his premise is wrong. We teach our children that two wrongs donít make a right. We all must be attentive to the guidelines. People who violate the guidelines could harm themselves and all of us. Because they err does not mean that we should encourage more errors even for reasons of piety Ė indeed, especially for reasons of piety. Our tradition discourages this emphatically.
 
The part of the letter that disturbed me the most is that it was anonymous. Only a coward criticizes others without identifying himself.

We continue to rely on a large panel of local doctors who are cardiologists, pulmonologists, infectious disease specialists, and COVID-19 ICU unit directors. They are all Orthodox Jews. They understand our physical as well as our religious needs. They, too, long to return to their shuls. They, too, are pained that the doors of our beautiful institutions remain shuttered.
 
And they are unanimous in cautioning us that we must continue home isolation, social distancing, regular hand washing, wearing gloves, masks, etc. They are unanimous in emphasizing the absolute necessity of refraining from any form of social gathering, whether indoors or outdoors.

Unfortunately, many of our citizens are not taking this seriously enough. People do not understand that even when they feel well they could be asymptomatic carriers of the disease. If they recovered from the disease and think that they are no longer carriers, they could be wrong. It is not yet known whether those who have recovered from COVID-19 are immune to future infection.
 
Failure to follow the unanimous guidelines of our distinguished doctors puts everyone at risk! This is a matter not only of individual health, but of public health.

To put it most directly, if you infect someone, you could inadvertently harm them very seriously. (This is especially true of  people who are known to be particularly vulnerable to serious manifestations of the disease). And public health teaches us that it doesnít stop there. If you infect someone, then they can infect someone (or multiple people), and that person infects someone, and so on Ė and we have another outbreak where many can die. All from one source.

Hence, there can be no religious services indoors or outdoors. That includes in driveways, and parking lots, on lawns etc.
 
I want to have the opportunity to return to public prayer. I believe in it and I miss it as much as you do. We all want to go back to our synagogues immediately. But we cannot do that yet!

Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives are sincere in their desire to serve HASHEM. But they are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone elseís blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan.

I fully understand that there are safe ways to make public gatherings by abiding by proper social distancing rules and with masks and gloves. But that misses the point!! This matter is so serious that we must create an extra protective layer around it, just as Chazal added chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha.
 
Even if rules are relaxed on the premise of the communityís adherence to strict medical standards, they will be violated consistently, even if unintentionally. We all know how hard it is to actually remain 6 feet apart, and how we instinctively shift closer and closer to our fellow human beings. There will not be supervision. Everyone will create their own gatherings. We will inadvertently  socialize inappropriately. People will be infected. The numbers in the hospitals will spike and people will die. That is what the doctors tell us. I am sure none of us wants that to happen. In order for this isolation to work, everyone must comply until the doctors tell us that it is safe to do otherwise.

I know that my message has been grim. And weíve all have enough of grimness. We so badly want to look forward to something good. So let me return to my opening words.  I encourage you to hold onto the signs of hope. They are there. They are real. And if we continue to follow these guidelines, they will not be taken away from us, as they likely will be if we fail to do so. It is so hard to be patient. (Anyone who knows me knows that I find it hard to be patient)! But if we do this, then a time will come, and I pray it is not too far away, when we will safely be able ďto observe many Sabbaths in the futureĒ together, with social closeness, in our beautiful shuls.

RHB

Young Israel of Woodmere

April 27, 2020, 09:21:24 PM
3
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Of course 2 wrongs don't make a right. But why are the Rabbanim only harping on minyan? Why aren't they signing a letter against help or lack of social distancing while shopping? Is it because they don't think people will listen? Or, more disturbing, do they think people care more about pizza than minyan so they can't say anything?
any argument against outdoor minyan can be used against pizza motzei shabbos

My take, the yetzer hara is working both sides of the aisle.

What the hell do Rabbis have to do with a pizza shop? Minyan is in the spiritual realm and ergo in the rabbisí court. They are the rabbis of the shuls which have the minyanim.

Letís try not to be idiotic all the time.

And wtf is your comment about yetzer harah on both sides? Are you saying Rabbi Finerís yetzer harah got the better of him and he got lazy and decided heís still not interested in going to minyan?

Why do we need to continuously be holier than tho? When did minyan become the new religion? Is it that it gives us the ability to escape the house a bit?

Iím honestly perplexed - our Rabbanim got together and said (based on medical advice) that itís a sakanah now to daven with a minyan - and all of a sudden every shmoiger knows better and needs to daven with a minyan.

And how does the argument of there are dangerous situations in our community hold any salt? So we should make it more dangerous by having minyanim?

Pizza stores and people shmoozing are wrong and you should stay away from those people. If one really need/ a Rabbi to tell him how to live every step of his life then I cry for the generation of idiots we have created.

April 27, 2020, 10:49:08 PM
4
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
This Billet fellow has a real leftist agenda.

First of all, out of the 57 signatories, many are not near the stature of the ones that did not sign. In addition, there were more than four that did not sign, and some that did "sign" say their signature was forged. Some of our greatest local Rabbis are either giving permission for people to have legal backyard minyanim, davening themselves by these minyanim, and some are even hosting them. I will not reveal their names, you can do your own homework. There are more than four.

Besides, this issue is issue is not exclusive to our community. In Brooklyn and Lakewood most Rabonim are permitting minyanim within the health guidelines. The police and government officials have visited many of those minyanim and gave their o.k.. In Eretz Yisroel almost everyone is davening in outdoor minyanim with permission of the government. All these places are following the guidance of their Rabonim. Their Rabonim also speak to medical professionals and decided it was fine. Our local doctors and some Rabbis are alarmists. Go listen to Dr. Glatts speech and you'll hear what an unrealistic alarmist he is. (The truth is, right now there are less people who die from Covid per day than there are who die from the flue during flue season. And in NYC every death now is considered a Covid death whether tested or not. The leftists are trying to keep the numbers high.) The true risk factor also plays a roll in Halacha.

I personally spoke to some of the signatories who told me there was heavy pressure from "the left" to sign. But even if 57 local Rabbis did sign. there are hundreds of very great reputable Rabbis who disagree with them. This is not merely a local issue. For Billet to declare "Those individuals and rabbis who continue to violate these directives... are misguided in their actions and are doing the reverse of what Halacha demands. They see themselves as acting for a greater purpose, but in reality they are selfish and guilty of the sin of hubris. Their blood is not redder than anyone else’s blood. And their desire for a minyan is not greater than our desire for a minyan" is total blasphemy and utter Chutzpah. Many of these Rabbis around the world are greater than he, and these 57 are definitely outnumbered.

The government regulations already take into account extra precautions. To add on to them is ridiculous. It ends up backfiring. Billet is not Chazal, and does not have the right to "add chumrot to protect the integrity of halacha". Especially when most Rabbis in the world disagree with him.

I know people are going to say"Well I know Rabbi so and so, and hes also against minyanim". But the truth is, some of the anti-minyan Rabbis are the vocal ones. The rest are just doing what they feel is the right thing, and telling their followers to do the same. I just got off the phone with a friend from Brooklyn. He told me there are four minyanim on his block, three times a day, all strictly adhering to social distancing rules. He told me that's what it like all over Brooklyn. They are not stupid. They also don't want to get sick. They keep all the rules strictly. And they are all under Rabbinic guidance.

I believe Billet missed the point of the letter writer on YeshivaWorld. His point was that for some reason the so called 57 signatories did not write a lengthy letter against cleaning ladies or shopping or the like. They only wrote about minyanim. At this point in time, shopping in our stores is far more dangerous than davening outside. There seems to be a clear agenda against minyanim. It's not only them. For example, the frum webstites post headlines about Rabbi Meir Stern from Passaic prohibiting minyanim, then post a letter from someone else in Passaic not even quoting Rabbi Stern with regards to the current situation! Fake Headline. They do it all the time.

Why do we have a local Rabbi calling the police and being moiser on another Rabbi who doesn't agree with him? Nothing illegal was being done. This conduct is unheard of! Rabbi Shternbauch just put out a very strong letter against being moser other people to the government. He says mesirah has always been from the worst aveiros a person can do. Probably even worse than davening with a minyan.

I understand there are great Rabbis who feel minyanim are a no-no. But those great Rabbis on not belittling those who disagree with them. They are not going on any campaign.

One of the great leaders in America recently spoke privately to his talmidim and slammed the anti-minyan campaign and called it all a maaseh satan. (The speech was not made public. It was over the phone on a hotline and not recorded. It was intended for his kehilah alone.) Somebody told me he spoke directly to Reb Dovid Feinstein who said if a Rov wants to conduct a legal outdoor minyan, he may do so.

So, stop the campaign! We respected you more before you started writing on websites and pushing your agenda. And btw, I assume the letter on YWN was written anonymously because the writer was afraid of Billet and his henchmen. The same reason many of the 57 signed the letter. Look what happened to some of those who did not sign. They are being ripped to shreds.

Ok now we’re have a &$@/ contest on the stature of Rabbis? 57 Rabbis signed the letter. Not sure where political affiliation gets involved. Rabbis Perr, Bender, Jeager, Feiner etc. Don’t do it for you? There are a handful of holdouts and I know personally that one of the holdouts is facing an uproar from his mispallelem who are calling for his job.

Why can’t we have nice things? Why can’t we have one time when the entire community gets together and says as one “we are going to take on a hardship so we don’t continue spreading diseases?!” Without it being an opportunity for some of to show off how much more we are “machshiv teffilah bitsibur” than our neighbor.

I do love the fact that you call Dr. Glatt an alarmist? Where is your medical degree from? Watsapp, DDF or FDU? The man is  CHAIRMAN DEPARTMENT OF MEDICINE, CHIEF, INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND HOSPITAL EPIDEMIOLOGIST at a local hospital directly dealing with COVID cases.
He gives a weekly update that is totally fact driven - you should give a listen.

Please let’s stop with yeshivesh boich sevaras. Ordinarily I could care less but let’s not kill people today, hmm?

April 27, 2020, 11:05:20 PM
3
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread

The letter was written and signed as community leaders, not shul rabbis. So yes, if they think the community is doing something wrong they should say something about it. They also have sway over the vaad hakashrus. If they see something dangerous they can stop it.


My point about yetzer Hara, not talking about a specific Rav or medical professional advising them, is that there is ego involved and that makes coming to the correct conclusion more complicated.


I personally don't worship minyan and will listen to the letter even if I don't agree with it completely because that's Torah thing to do. I'm just sad by the conclusion.


For some reason I hit a nerve with you and I apologise if you took anything personally.

Sorry I usually try to avoid “frum” media and forums because of the heartache it causes but I checked in tonight and was blown away by how unhinged some of us have become.

I haven’t been to a pizza store in months so I can’t speak to what the lines are looking like but I do agree there was failure of leadership when it came to supermarkets - they should have gone delivery only right when this started - but I put that more on the “askanim” and the supermarkets themselves than the Rabbis.

I can’t speak to all 57 Rabbis but the ones I have the pleasure of knowing I would happily attest to the fact that I can guarantee that no ego was part of the decision not to have minyanim.

I think the situation is sad not the conclusion of the letter. Our community has been hit unbelievably hard by this. By way of reference we had a zoom meeting today with a substantial part of my firm and no one else knew anyone personally that had even gotten the virus let alone died. I knew over ten people that passed away from it. No question our minyanim and other large social gatherings was a large reason why.

There’s just been too much death already - let’s hold off until we are 100% sure that we won’t cause anymore. I don’t think this is an outlandish idea by any means.

April 27, 2020, 11:26:52 PM
2
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
can you please elaborate?
I canít say I agree with everything, but to say there isnít 2 legit rabbinical opinions on this is being stuck in a little box.
What so hard to understand?

Are there local medical experts saying itís ok to have minyanim? Is no one else sick of all the levayos and absolutely frightened of experiencing it again? Did Minyan become yaarog val yavor? This is not an abstract anymore we have all seen how deadly this is. 57 rabbis, chassidish, modern, yeshivesh old and young - got together and said based on medical expert advice - do not have any minyanim. This is is not a shailah of Halacha or hashkafah itís literally Pikuach nefesh. How can there be two sides?

Usually Iím a live and let live guy - but here you maybe literally killing others - what is the tzad to take that risk if the rabbonim and medial experts say not too. Do we need more dead? Do we not care for the elderly and the sick amongst us?

We can be michalal issuri deorasya for Pikuach nefesh - but a minyan not? I understand the strong desire to return to life as normal which for us - minyan is a very important part of it. But alas we cannot yet - hopefully soon we can have some sense of normalcy and minyan is some sort of form can start taking place again along with children returning to Yeshiva but all at the right time.

So hereís the problem with eilu veilue here - one eilu will kill people.




April 28, 2020, 12:47:47 AM
2
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
you made a good case.
Do you think that there might be a possibility that a posek would look at it differently?

I just donít see how. If the argument is but people are doing X and Y anyway so we should do Z thatís idiotic and I sure hope we donít have Poskim who think and pasken like that.

Are there qualified medical experts who are backing the other side up? I admittedly only spoke to one of the four holdouts (a Rabbi who I otherwise extremely respect and consider a good man) who said he did not consult with any expert but heís taking necessary precautions and then started ďthe what about XĒ argument.

I donít know - the whole situation absolutely sucks. But was there anything worse then 2/3 week period where there was just death after death? We have medical experts telling us itís getting better (because of what we are doing) but to not lighten up the restrictions yet. Why canít we just say - ok great news, we understand and please keep us updated? Do we need another wave of what we went through?


April 28, 2020, 01:13:08 AM
1
Re: Corona virus and your shul
Doom & Gloom. Please enough is enough. The country is reopening slowly but surely Bh and you keep on with your warnings.

Yes letís stick with ostrich defense - itís working out so well.

April 28, 2020, 01:40:38 AM
1
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
they might and Iím sure they do have different reasons than the one you stated. Some of the ones that are מתיר are known leading Rabonim in the medical field.

What? Whom? What is a Leading Rabbi in the medical field? Is that better than a Doctor? Does this Rabbi have a better understanding of a brand new virus than the medical experts?

Isnít that the reason that the necessary precautions were activated in the first place?

Right - where we getting at here?

They are following the national guidelines set by top US doctors.Agreedthese minyanim are in place since the beginning.

Not following here either. There are National guidelines for minyanim?

Again ordinarily I could care less about what Yenem is doing but to advocate against a clear precedent established by 99% of the Rabbis and the leading doctors and you can potentially kill people - I donít understand the need to find loopholes and argue. We are talking about people dying - how is that not the end of the conversation?

Do you think Rabbi finer doesnít want to daven with a minyan? Rabbi Perr? Rabbi Jeager? Rabbi Brown? Our utmost respected and revered Roshei Yeshivas the ones we put our childrenís education in their hands, but they give a ruling based on medical experts that could potentially save lives and we all know better?

I am perplexed.

April 28, 2020, 11:03:09 AM
1
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition? I havenít even tried with my kids schools - I know the answer will be HELL NO. I consider the administrator of my kids Yeshiva a Rashah who is personally responsible from keeping Yiddish neshamas being brought into this world because of parents afraid of paying more obscene tuition costs and the absolute humiliation and degradation one must go through to even being considered for a discount - which never is granted if you have a decent job. They just take it all.

Problem is multiplied when when the Board consists of gvirim and today ever increasingly itís populated by trust fund babies who never had to worry about money a day in their lives and whose parents set up foundations to pay the tuition for all the einklich.

April 28, 2020, 11:43:53 AM
3
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
You are perplexed because you are so one-sided, you keep on repeating the same misinformation.

This is a worldwide issue, not a local one. At least 90% of the Rabinim with consultation with Health Experts feel there is nothing wrong with these minyanim. That is also the opinion of Dr. Fauci and his team of the top doctors in the the world.

True, there are very great Rabbis on the other side. But they are the minority. You must follow your Rabbi and not belittle those who don't agree with you. The Rabbis you mentioned are not belittling those who disagree with them.

If you saw are privy to see the letters and other communication from our local health experts to our Rabbis, you would be quite depressed. I saw these communications and understand based of that information why a Rabbi would prohibit minyanim. But according to these health experts, we must remain in quaranteen until a vaccine is developed and a full study is concluded. That means we will be home and society should be closed for another year and a half.

Ask your Rabbi to show you the communications they are getting their information from.

Most health officials in the world, including Trumps team are not so pessimistic. Other communities and their Rabinim are getting their advice from other experts. For your sanity, I would advise you to do the same. When I first saw some of the local communications, I was very down. Then I started to do some more research and became much more optimistic.

In addition, many things we do in life have a risk factor. Driving a car,, flying in an airplane,, going on a roller coaster, etc.. But when statistics hit a certain level, there is a concept of shomer pesayim which plays a big roll in Halacha. That was the original heter to smoke back in the day according to Reb Moahe Feinstein ztl. (And as an aside, it is more dangerous to smoke or vape than it is to daven with a minyan, and i didn't see any letters by our leaders banning smoking.) A Rabbi has a right to decide when we reach that level and make halachic decisions.

But as I already said, even the prohibiters agree there is nothing dangerous davening with a minyan keeping all lawful guidelines. They want to make extra gezeiros in addition to those required by law. That is an opinion which 90% of the Rabbis worldwide and here in America disagree with. Let people follow their own Rabbi. That is the right thing for each person to do.

Going to ignore most of the stupidity here but 😂 that medical experts gave advice which you found depressing so you disregarded it and went to the ol internet and found some more to your liking.

April 28, 2020, 12:03:18 PM
1
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Those three Rabbis were and are heavily and unnecessarily scared and alarmed by mainly two local doctors. But this is not a local issue and other doctors around the world can also be trusted. These doctors are worse than Fauci in this area. They might be well meaning, but they are alarmists. Just a small example: When doctors call for six feet to be safe, the letter this Friday from our locals required 8 to 10 feet. All over the country health officials are permitting minyanim, but not here.There are also some very great local Rabbis who consult with their own professionals and came to different conclusions. They are just not as vocal. Even some of the Rabbis who are on the conference call with Rabbi Dr. Glatt and some who even sign those papers (out of pressure) are either conducting minyanim or davening with one three times a day locally.

What is this thing about "Unless you have another qualified expert in the community"? Just because he lives here does not make him the top doctor. I haven't seen any national media quote any of our locals yet.

Another interesting thing is that you have some local doctors telling Rabbis to demand everyone over two years old wear a mask when taking a walk on Shabbos, and these doctors and their own families do not abied by these strict self-imposed rules themselves.

Huh? You decided that these brilliant scholars were unnecessarily scared?! Who are you? What are your credentials and qualifications? How can you ever go to one of these leading poskim and ask them a shailah if you think they are so easily swayed by people who you think are clearly in the wrong.

I wish you will but I vehemently pray that you never hold a position of any sort of authority or influence  or I am afraid of the consequences.

The hubris you display is astonishing. Pray tell what is your education, occupation - where does this come from? If we are arguing about airline points then fine whatever, but in a literal life and death situation you have had the complete confidence to drag in the dirt the name of every esteemed rabbi and doctor in the community.

May 03, 2020, 11:20:48 PM
2
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
I see it worked. You are scared.

First of all, the entire social distancing thing is not proven to help at all. Many experts believe it actually harms the situation.

Second of all, in NYS all deaths are considered Covid deaths now, even without being tested for Covid. They do this in order to keep the numbers high. In addition, if during flue season they would run around testing people to see if they are asymptomatic to the flue, we would have an even higher number of flue patients and even deaths.

 Our numbers are down now. When Cuomo says we have 290 deaths, he means that's how many people died that day in NYS. He does not tell us how many people die on a regular fie before this plague or during the flue season.. There are also many deaths in nursing homes daily. Those deaths are greatly due to Cuomo's executive order sending elderly Covid patients to the homes instead of the hospital. He sent them to a facility where everyone  there was supsestable to the worst.

At this point, at least 85% of NY was exposed. There is very little danger davening with a minyan or walking withut a mask. It's mainly media and democratic hype.

Maskim maskim - Also - I took  the pills that Alex Jones from infowars was selling that protects one from the coronavirus AND I donated to kupat haeir so Iím all ready for a nice packed minyan (maybe we do in front of Rabbi Brownís house to show him how unnecessarily scared he is).

May 03, 2020, 11:33:27 PM
2
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Was just pointing out that there is a safe way to feed the people who need to eat.

Yup itís what Iíve been doing.

May 04, 2020, 12:06:14 AM
1
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Be consistent
They had the power for the time being to shut 5t davening bitzibur down for the most part do the same for all if truly believe the doctors
Ppl davening inside and going out to supermarket and walks etc etc etc kinda defeats the purpose

So letís say there was a failure on the supermarket front - therefore they should say letís have dangerous minyanim?

Iím really trying to follow the logic here. I hear the supermarket gripe but canít follow it to the minyanim

May 04, 2020, 12:08:21 AM
1
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Not sure what "style" you are talking about. I also lost many close ones. And the fact we closed earlier didn't help us, by the way.

What does more "enlightened" mean?!? I thought Torah is light and the more you have of it, the more enlightened you are.

And I hate to break it to you, many of the young and upcoming Rabbis in town are Lakewood trained. Maybe even most of them.Besides,  Lakewood had a lot less of this Covid stuff then we did.

Again, the difference between me and you is that I understand there are two sides. The majority (WORLDWIDE) and the minority. You need to follow your own Rabbi. You only can see one side. And your anti-Lakewood attitude just slipped through by mistake. Maybe there is something else deep down here that you weren't saying before.

P.S. Just out of curiosity, before Covid, are you the type of person who always goes to shul to daven with a minyan? Three times a day, seven days a week? Do you usually come on time and leave on time? Do you talk at all during davening and/or during leining? Do you think about the words you are saying when davening? How long do you spend davening now that you are home?

Is minyan really important to you? Or is all that for Brooklyn and Lakewood?!?

Oy vey - against my better judgement

1. Look up definition of enlightened. Canít help you there.
2. These Lakewood trained rabbis facts are about as accurate as the other information you posted here. Agav I learned in BMG - absolutely loved my time there. Hold it in the highest esteem and remain very close to Rav Olshin and have had the Lakewood RĒY grace my home here.
3. And to satisfy your curiosity - one time I spoke Bain gavra ligavra pains me until this day and now that you mention it is probably the reason why I hate minyanim so much and would like it shut down for good. Thanks for reminding me.



May 04, 2020, 12:27:30 AM
1
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Almost everything you said cN be said back to you from the other side. Including, they would say, that you are endangering people's lives by banning minyanim and albeit not their fault closing Yeshivas. There is a G-d factor which should take a roll here too. Without Him this won't stop. If it can be done in a safe way, one real good Amen Yehei Shmei Ramah is more powerful than all the medical intervention.

You are proving my point. One side understands there are two side, and take a position. But some on the other side have an agenda and therefor cannot even hear there is an argument here.

My friend you have a lot of issues but the gaivah one is particularly appalling. You have a greater appreciation of the power of amain yehia shmai rabbah than Rabbi Finer, Rabbi Brown, Rabbi Forst, Rabbi Perr, Rabbi Jeager, Rabbi Stern, etc. (I wonít mention any of the YU trained Rabbinim who most certainly do not come close to your stature).

May 04, 2020, 10:31:00 AM
1
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
Lol @ making this mistake in response to someone with the username mootkim.

Only liberals care about typos - you must be one of those CNN watchers who hates minyan.

May 04, 2020, 08:17:02 PM
2
Re: Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Master Thread
It was in response to your silly comment somehow connecting cholent with minyan. I, and probably most people, don't think of cholent when we talk about wanting to get back to shul.  For some reason, cholent seemed to be on your mind.

Anyways, you invited me to contact the Rabbis (which I have been working in anyways). I am happy to let you know it seems that progress is being made. So for those of us longing to daven with a minyan and reading from a Sefer Torah, we have what to look forward to.

But for you who associates chulent with Shul, I am sorry. I don't believe they are going to allow that yet. You can stay home.

Rabbosi - we have finally hit the crux of the issue - itís chulent!! I knew we would get there - it took a while but finally we have arrived.

The townís Rabbanim and doctors only want shul for cholent - hence - no cholent no minyan. But there are a few (like our friend Sammyp) who stand up and shouts NO! Mi Lahasem alai- those that want shul open for davening and not cholent - stand with me!

A modern day Pinchas in our midst. I for one am humbled.

May 05, 2020, 10:57:50 AM
2
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic) What do you think would take a guy like him to take this seriously and not decide that the whole thing is a hack job set up the ďliberalsĒ and no worse than the flu? Iím just curious - if anything would happen to convince someone like that of the danger. I mean if the amount of people in the frum community that died wasnít enough (donít think he would care about any other deaths). Is there a number of people that have to die from this first or will it never happen no matter what? Will it always be something made up by liberals and CNN?

I should have stopped this long ago but I rarely have the opportunity to talk to someone who is so convinced of all this narishkiet. Eye-opening.

May 05, 2020, 11:39:43 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
There were more than one.b One Rov said he verified with other colleagues and their names were also put on without authorization.

They don't put out a letter because they are not on a campaign and do not have an agenda. They communicate with their Kehila and their Kehila know what their Rov holds. These Rabonim don't really care what everyone else says or thinks about them.

If their names were signed without their permission but they donít want anyone to know this - I think they should choose a new profession.

May 09, 2020, 11:58:25 PM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
You clearly have no idea about the backstory With all of this, so stop coming here just to make hock. Get your facts straight and then come back

Only facts that matter is that someone claimed there are Rabbis whose signatures were attached to a letter they didnít agree with and without their permission but they didnít speak up about it and donít allow this information to be public. If this fact is true it doesnít matter about any other circumstantial facts - these Rabbis should be ashamed and rethink their ability to take on such an important responsibility as a Rabbi of congregation. If you canít stand by your psak or even worse when someone falsely attributes a psak to you and you just let it be......

May 10, 2020, 12:12:50 AM
2
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Only facts that matter is that someone claimed there are Rabbis whose signatures were attached to a letter they didnít agree with and without their permission but they didnít speak up about it and donít allow this information to be public. If this fact is true it doesnít matter about any other circumstantial facts - these Rabbis should be ashamed and rethink their ability to take on such an important responsibility as a Rabbi of congregation. If you canít stand by your psak or even worse when someone falsely attributes a psak to you and you just let it be......

Sorry if the backstory is someone is holding a gun to his head then I take back what I said..... but as interesting as the backstory is I canít imagine it went that far but hey you never know with these YI Rabbis and Doctors

May 10, 2020, 12:15:58 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Do you not realize that this is a huge political debate in the 5TS and it isn't as easy as positing a letter?!. They keep having votes and it's a very complicated matter. In any event it really isn't anyone's here place to be judging any of these rabbonim or to be commenting on a matter to which they have no clue as to the whereabouts or the makings. Its foolish and naive to come here read 3 comments and make any decisions or comments  based on that

Aha, so the Rabbi couldnít handle the political pressure so he was ok with someone falsely signing his name to a letter he disagreed with. I mean Iím only a lawyer not a rabbi but if someone signed my name on something that I didnít draft or worse didnít agree with (or worse someone did that to one of my clients) - I sure as hell wouldnít be silent about it.

May 10, 2020, 12:21:47 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Maybe that's why you're a lawyer and they are Rabbis

We have more integrity than these Rabbis? I would surely hope not.

May 10, 2020, 12:37:56 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Did you read the post by the other doctor on Friday?

Now many people are immune. There is heard immunity developing. There are barely any new cases in our community at all. I think 3 minor cases last week. Cuomo said 88% of new cases in State are from those who were 100% quaranteed with no contact.

So if all rules are kept, your chances go up 0%.

Ah so what we are doing is working so now letís not do it anymore. Iím convinced.

May 10, 2020, 12:46:34 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
So what's the end game? The virus is never going away. No minyan until a vaccine is readily available?

No Yeshiva? No economy? Millions unemployed? Itís a pandemic my friend. Welcome.

May 10, 2020, 12:48:01 AM
2
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
@reed

Many Kol korahs that come out have names signed that never agreed to it
You are making it sound like itís a new thing

These rabbis donít need to make public statements about this garbage
They deal with their Shul and communicate with them directly

You feel they need to come out and make a big deal
They disagree

Garbage? An unprecedented letter signed by 57 Rabbis Of all types that BAN all minyanim (just think about that) and youíre telling me the Rabbi who disagrees with this letter but yet somehow signed shouldnít come out and say ďhey wait a second I disagree! There should be minyanim!Ē.

This is not a letter about making BBQs in the nine days itís a got a little more gravitas.

May 10, 2020, 01:01:23 AM
2
Re: Covid-19 Symptoms In Toddlers - Rashes / Hives Have cases like this been reported in places like Italy and Spain (I know we canít trust any data out of China).
May 10, 2020, 01:18:46 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
What we did until now worked and now we can move on.

The OU/RCA and YIW all said there is no real danger with these minyanim and they are instituting lo plug. They can do that in their kehilos if they want to.

Reb Yid - the below is a post of yours from not too long ago. I think itís important to repost so people understand what they dealing with here.

ďHowever, I am from those people whom believe Hashem still wants us to daven and learn. I am a follower of Reb Chaim Kanievvsky who recommends keeping all Batei Medrash open. He wouldn't budge even when the government and health officials came ti his house to home and tried to get him to change his mind.

In Brooklyn, when they have an confirmed case, they close the shul to disinfect, then reopen. Far Rockaway closed all shuls as a result of some people showing symptoms. So far, the tests are coming back negative, and the shuls are still closed.

When all the stores switch to delivery only, then I will start to daven at home.

This entire Chrono thing is majorly hyped up and exaggerated by the media. It's true it is real, but not the way they make it out to be. We're all gonna get it anyways at some point. Most of us wont even know we have it though.Ē

May 10, 2020, 01:47:10 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
That comment was not from "not too long ago". It might be too much to ask for, but it would be nice to be honest.

That comment was from the early stages before the Federal and State governments introduced the Stay At Home and quarantine laws.

It happens to be that even though at the time we did not have much information about this virus, what I said back then came out to be mostly true. Most of us have gotten the virus since then, whether we quarantined or not.  Most of us were only mildly sick and some of us didn't even know we had it until we tested for antibodies. (If you din't test yet, go get tested.)

It is also true that many who did quarantine got sick anyways and it didn't help them. The Governor himself said most cases now are from those who were completely isolated, and they got it anyways.

According to many Doctors and professionals it is still not clear that this Stay at Home initiative helped much at all. And we still don't know the negative long term effects this quarantine will have on society, including on our health.  Many infectious disease doctors and professionals are worried that our bodies might have lost the natural antibodies which are constantly built up every day when we come into contact with the thousands of germs which float around and we come into contact with when we live our normal lives. With all this quarantine and sanitizing there is a real concern that whenever we get out, a lot of people will get sick due to their improvised  immune systems . Only time will tell.

It was March 16 - after all the shuls and schools in town closed. The virus was Understood to be dangerous at the time and people in town were testing positive. Yet you said the Shuls should stay open because you are a follower of R Chaim and corona is just ďhyped upĒ. Then you pointed to Brooklyn to show how the shuls are staying open and we should follow them. Seeing the results now in the five towns and Brooklyn Iím very happy that the Rabbanim and the community did the opposite of what you knew to be right.

May 10, 2020, 09:29:58 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
BH they are alive and well and safely away from NY at the moment.

They were sitting shiva for people alive and well?

May 10, 2020, 12:07:52 PM
2
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Lucky 5 Towners, the one person who challenges the "no manyanim whatsoever" approach, keeps on arguing this is just the flu and SD is not proven beneficial.

Please be sure to know that he does not represent our community - the rest of us believe in science not conspiracy theories.

May 10, 2020, 02:56:34 PM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic) Other than that one individual (which left a terrible taste in my mouth) I am glad that the rest of us saw him for what it was. Assuming this is at all a sample of the community I am glad that most of us are responsible, mature and educated (Including self-education) on things that count.

Makes me incredibly proud to be part of this community.

May 11, 2020, 11:13:23 AM
1
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
I think close it
if you need info each rabbi is most likely sending weekly updates (which is whom you should be following) so we dont need to hear everyone's 2 cents here

I meant if we want info from more than just the one our shul is sending out. More information is always better.

May 11, 2020, 11:47:08 AM
1
Re: Corona virus and your shul
This is taking it to some extreme, I'm sure it will have some backfire, I can bet that there's no unanimous assent for this, many will rethink their affiliation indeed.

This is a YI not a shteeble no one will rethink their affiliation. They will probably gain member from this.

May 12, 2020, 07:37:44 PM
1
Re: Corona virus and your shul
The other issue is that people who do respect and listen to Rabbanim are in many cases not buying that this is the Rabbanims deeply held psak. Take Lakewood where few will generally go against a unanimous psak of the 4 BMG poskim, yet I have yet to see a minyan that fully confirms to the written psak. Just about every one of them I am aware of occasionally has more than exactly ten attendees. Many are on an individuals porch etc. If you were to ask Rav Felder about going on someoneís porch (someone did a couple days ago)he will tell you not to. But people donít feel this is a hard and fast psak that is binding. Maybe it has to do with the back a forth letters and retractions. Maybe the known politics of the pro and con camps. Maybe the fact that there are well known leaders who are not on board.

Far Rockaway and five Five Towns has a similar situation. People I know who would never disobey Rabbonim have been holding driveway/ porch minyanim throughout despite the name of their Rav appearing on the letter.

The bottom line is that many people donít view this as a bona fide binding psak from a Rav, hence the scene that is actually occurring with the backyard minyanim. Is it possible that the dynamic was similar in Deerfield, rather than a head on thwarting of the Ravs authority?

Do the Rabbis give a wink when they give a non bona-fine psak - just trying to figure out how people know when the Rabbi means itís a psak psak and when itís an eh kind of
Psak.

May 13, 2020, 02:58:04 AM
2
Re: Corona virus and your shul


Once he made the flu comparison I was out. Why no name? So in summary you can daven outdoors and there will be new cases but letís go indoors and there will be more cases - why - because you can also get into a car accident.

Fine reasoning.

May 13, 2020, 10:19:29 AM
1
Re: Corona virus and your shul
i understand you are concerned, my question is why are we scrutinizing minaynim more than say grocery shops, hardware stores, office space, airplanes, or a congress testimony?   
Why would we lift any restrictions at all? maybe because some people have had Covid19 and tested for antibodies and are resuming life to some degree and that includes davaning with a minyan with SD.

How long are we going to make the what about x argument? Donít go to groceries or hardware stores either. Rabbis donít control stores. They can pasken about minyanim. People need food they go to grocery. Rabbi-Dr Glatt has said numerous times that visits to the groceries should be only when needed, very quick and only one person per family. Itís is preferable to get things delivered.

Havenít the studies showed that only 20% of the population may have anti-bodies? So screw the other 80%? If you think those 80% will be smart enough to stay away from minyanim and Shuls by themselves - after reading this forum and the other ďfrumĒ site I am fairly confident in saying they are not.

So what happens? We have more sickness and more deaths. Why? Because we never learn our lesson.

My fatherinlaws shul in Flatbush was open a full two weeks longer than my shul in five towns. So many people got sick and there were deaths from that shul. I told him what is wrong with your shul just shut it. The reply was ďthe Rav believes in the koach of teffilah betiziburĒ. I heard they are making plans to reopen their shul very soon.

So this is why we canít have minyanim yet. People have a very short-term memory and in general seem to be extremely foolish about this. As sad as it is to say, we cannot leave people to their own devices.


May 14, 2020, 12:49:06 PM
2
Re: Law School
Depends on lots of factors. i've had 1680 years and 2500 years (but most around 1900-2000). I do M&A so generally my hours work out to like 15 80 hour weeks (when things are really moving on a deal), 10 recovery weeks/vacations, and then normal work life. i think litigation generally is more consistent (esp with doc review) with a little blip for trials.
@michael what practice are you?
 i've been averaging a little over 100 a month the past couple months, most of my deals are on hold or dead, and im not surprised real estate finance is worse. Highly suggest you actively seek out work (ask your direct superiors first, and if they dont have work/quality non-billable work ask them if they care if you reach out to other dept heads to learn a bit of bankruptcy etc. need to show that you arent freeloading and want to work in these scary times for some firms.
As an aside, i'm very scared for Real Estate, dont think commercial real estate in NY will ever be what it was.

Our practice is pretty national in scope - I would say most deals are outside NYC rather than local deals. Still 100% agree - RE is scary right now as no one knows pricing. Of course been reaching out and all that. Everyone slow across the board. Iím a pretty well liked mid-level so not overly concerned about being let off (they havenít laid off any staff or jrs yet). That being said if it continues like this for a few more months all bets are off....

May 15, 2020, 10:17:43 AM
1
Re: Corona virus and your shul I really thought I could not be shocked anymore. I thought I had seen at all. However the frum oilem has risen to the occasion again. Packed minyanim indoors, no masks, not even a hint of social distancing, Kiddiashim, acting like it never happened...

Does no one remember the days where we heard of 10-15 people that we knew personally dying per day? Did we just sweep that under the rug and move on like nothing happened?!

Why must we always be so stupid? Why canít we be smart, proactive, cautious?! Is it because we donít go to college and therefore we donít see science as an integral part of life? Is it our Yeshiva system that teaches us that we are smarter than everyone else and to scoff at the secular?

I donít know the answer but Iím frightened and distressed by what is going on.

May 24, 2020, 04:35:46 PM
4