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Re: Equifax Sacks 2 Executives, Gets Devious to Stop You from Getting a Credit Freez
can't you just fill this out?
I think that a separate freeze needs to be placed at each credit bureau.

September 19, 2017, 06:19:39 PM
Re: Get Refusal Just my thoughts here: I read through all this. I got to say, it's surprising to see the amount of times certain folks here are stating as 'fact' things that they've heard or things that they preface with 'as far as I know' or 'as far as I'm aware'. I'll admit, I do have a personal connection to Aaron's wife's family. And I've heard plenty of stuff from their family. But, I'm also an attorney, and my nature is to be skeptical of what people say, and try to independently verify what I'm told.

So, for example, yes, I heard that Aaron told their oldest daughter that he would kill her mother (Aaron's wife), and I was also told that, because of that, Aaron's wife filed for a protective order against him (which seems like a reasonable thing to do if (huge if) the allegation is true). So, I went on my own and actually checked court records in Palm Beach County, FL, and I found the case. I did see that a hearing was scheduled in relation to a protective order and that a minor would be testifying during the hearing. However, because this is a family law case, most of the record is sealed to everyone but the parties and the attorneys on the case. So, to be honest and consistent, I don't know whether Aaron actually said that to his daughter or not. However, for anyone here to say that the above is factual or not or to say that the above is a misrepresentation of the facts (I'm talking to you @S209), I just don't see how you could independently and honestly come to that conclusion.

I have been posting all the different posters and photos on these protests on my social media over the past few weeks. Before I did so, I called my Rav and asked him if it's ok al pi halacha, since it would seem that hilchos lashon hara could be seriously implicated here. I told him that I've heard a lot of things, but I honestly don't know what is true and what is not. I told him that I do know 2 facts:
1. The couple did get divorced in 'secular' court in Florida. This is a fact that can be independently verified by simply checking the Palm Beach County, FL court records, which I've done; and
2. Aaron's wife, today, wants a get, but he won't give it to her (for whatever his reasons are). This seems pretty obvious at this point, but I still verified it directly with her (and I believe it's reasonable to verify her own state of mind with her, feel free to disagree with me on that if you want).

Based on those two absolutely true facts alone, my Rav said that Aaron's wife is an agunah (regardless of other disputes about custody, support etc.) and that it's fine for me to post those notices and even to attend a protest, all in order to apply any pressure that we think is beneficial in convincing Aaron to give his wife a get (obviously, cow prods and large, disorganized mobs tend not to be beneficial in the larger scheme of things). So, I'm going to continue posting these things and continue trying to pressure Aaron to give his wife a get. If anyone here disagrees with me, all the more power to you. I would just be curious what you're basing your position on, other than your own sense of what is right and wrong.

All in all, I think the entire story is tragic. Not so much for the adults, because it's quite possible that blame can be shared for getting to this point. However, it's sad that 3 young and innocent children have to grow up with this hanging over their heads. That's a true tragedy.

March 18, 2021, 04:09:08 PM
Re: Get Refusal
It can however tell us about those organizing them.
If the people who posted those pictures are the same people who organized the pressure campaigns. Do you know that to be true? And if you'd say yes, then how do you know that? I'm not asking to attack you, but I would like to sincerely know whether that is fact or not.

March 18, 2021, 04:34:40 PM
Re: Get Refusal
Any pressure that could be beneficial regardless of downside is ok according to your Rav? That is obviously incorrect.

You say you worry about the damage to the innocent, but there are innocent people being harassed and threatened because of your underhanded tactics that you seem to be completely fine with. Why donít you call it out?
Ha ha, again you're misquoting me and then just using that to attack me and my Rav, a cheap trick. I never said 'beneficial regardless of downside' and neither did he. You need to look at the entire picture and decide whether the action is beneficial as a whole. I want to be clear: I think posting pictures of his teenage siblings is wrong, and I think harassing innocent people is wrong, and I gladly call that out right here right now.

I'm curious what 'underhanded tactics' you're attributing to me that you think I'm fine with and that are harassing innocent people. Please clearly specify instead of throwing around cheap and ambiguous allegations. It's easy to simply call me a bigot. Explain to me and the entire forum why you're justified in making that claim.

March 18, 2021, 04:41:56 PM
Re: Get Refusal
I donít think I could have been clearer. I donít know all of the facts, or even most, but the little I do is enough to show that the harassment of family members is completely not ok. Anybody who participates in said harassment is a Rasha at best.
Hey, if you know certain things to be fact, and you're absolutely sure that they're fact (not just that you heard from this person or from that person), then you're fully entitled to let those facts guide you. I'm being guided by what I know to be absolute fact, which I admit is not much. I agree that harassment of innocent family members is completely not ok. But you do realize that harassment and innocence can be gray areas.

March 18, 2021, 04:48:21 PM
Re: Get Refusal
From this post it seems clear that your concern is about the effectiveness of the tactic, not the morality.
How would you define 'morality'? What you yourself like or don't like, or perhaps what a Rav, who you may respect, states is proper according to halacha?
Morality is G-d given, and I think my Rav is better in tune with what G-d expects of us than what I myself might think, so I'm going to side with his psak.
If your Rav tells you otherwise, then you should definitely follow him (or her, don't wanna potentially offend anyone here).

March 18, 2021, 05:26:13 PM
Re: Get Refusal
Oh, the irony...
well taken ...was sort of tongue-in-cheek. Although, I'm really not out to offend anyone, I just think we should all be honest in this discussion and stick to what we know to be fact. And if I think someone is mispresenting what I said, then I think it's fair for me to call that out.

March 18, 2021, 05:31:46 PM
Re: Get Refusal
Why would a secular court have any bearing on a requirement to issue a get without a psak from BD?
Don't know, but that doesn't mean that it doesn't have any bearing. I think you would have to ask a competent Rav who is knowledgeable in these matters that question. I wouldn't definitely say one way or the other whether it does or doesn't since I simply don't know.

March 18, 2021, 05:35:00 PM
Re: Get Refusal
If your Rav paskened that the ends justifies the means, no matter the collateral damage, (which is what you seen to be saying) then I recommend you find a new Rav. What I think is more likely is that you misinterpreted your Rav's psak as a blank check.
Again (I'm getting so tired of this), my Rav never said 'the ends justify the means, no matter the collateral damage'. Show me where I said that or where it seems I said that above. Please be honest and consistent in the arguments you're making, and stop putting words in my mouth and then arguing against me with those words that you made up.

I've been very clear that my position on this is very limited and restricted. I have serious objections to certain actions people have taken on this, but I think there can be certain actions (like the rally in Boca) that are proper.

March 18, 2021, 05:41:04 PM
Re: Get Refusal
I'm not so sure the Torah disagrees with evolving morality. I think one can argue the Torah would consider slavery immoral nowadays just like adultery and thievery were immoral in Dor Hamabul before the Torah
I think nowadays is the key. I don't remember the exact wording, but don't we say somewhere in gemarah that when someone acquires a slave they're really acquiring a master for themselves? Just thinking here, but could it be that the slavery that you see nowadays, or even in the US in the past, would be abhorrent to the torah?

March 18, 2021, 06:12:40 PM
Re: Get Refusal
That's a defendable interpretation of his posts, but he can't claim that someone who understood him to mean what he actually said is misquoting him.

In this post, it seems that he is once again defending the tactic.
Trying to see where in that quote I defend harassing people. Care to share? I think it's dangerous to take someone's statement (that you may not understand) and then extrapolate as to what you think that person would believe on an expanded matter. If my post is not clear to you, then please ask me to clarify and I'll gladly do so.

March 18, 2021, 06:17:58 PM