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Re: Re: Cancun, Mexico Master Thread
I know this is mostly off topic and I did some searches but couldnt find anything explaining what the issue is R Dan.
I'm a big chabad fan, went to a chabad shul for years plus some gan izzy as a kid, and stayed in the chabad yeshiva in tsfas several times and ate with the peeps, who all were very believing in the Rebbe being mashiach. And i respect their opinion (though i disagree), but is there any actual split in the real governing structure in chabad (assumedly some believe and some dont, but they can work together), or is it like u say that maybe there are now 2 different hierarchies in chabad, the meshichists and non-mashichists and they dont hold of each other? If so, who has more power/who controls 770?

The so called split in Chabad should not be described as 2 parties, mishechist or not and everyone's one or the other. It's more like a spectrum with extremes on both ends. There are radical fanatics who insist the Rebbe is still physically alive and walking through 770 each day before and after davening and are ready to physically remove someone who stands in their way and there are also radicals to the extreme opposite who will physically fight the other radicals and go to extremes to make sure the Rebbe is clearly referred to as past tense and nothing of him remains alive. Most people fall somewhere in the middle, inclined slightly to one side. Believe it or not, believing the Rebbe is Moshiach is a given for most of the spectrum, all but the extreme. Saying the Rebbe is still alive is another parsha, and within that, to what extent. Most Lubavtichers will not use ZY"A OR SHLIT'A by the Rebbe's name. A common all round used suffix would be Nesi Doreinu, which shows that everyone agrees that the Rebbe is still out Rebbe and our Nosi Hador regardless of what 3 Tammuz 5754 means to them. The hierarchy of the official Chabad offices are more inclined to the so-called 'anti mishechist' side of the spectrum, but they don't have any kind of blanket rule that you can't be a shliach if you say Yechi, there are plenty shluchim recognized by them who say Yechi. The many unofficial shluchim around the world open up on their own because mostly they don't hold of the official Chabad hierarchy, in their opinion, they are a disgrace to the Rebbe. Some cases of unofficial shluchim resulted from fights with other shluchim in the area, or the Head Shliach of the area.
The bottom line is, every Lubavitcher still considers the Rebbe, their Rebbe. they turn to him for brochos, they send in a Duch and Pan periodically, whether this means sending to the Ohel or inserting it at random into pages of the Rebbe's Torah or correspondence, they get their answers one way or the next. After the histalkus of the Frierdiker Rebbe in 5710, before the Rebbe accepted the leadership officially, chassidim turned to the Rebbe and asked him how do we now receive the Rebbe's advice? The Rebbe answered, you write as always, the Shver (the way the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe) will find a way to answer! some other chassidim fight over who will be the next rebbe while their current rebbe is still alive, the opposite is true for all in Lubavitch, whatever way you look at it, the Rebbe is still the Rebbe.
Almost every Lubavitcher believes the Rebbe will be revealed as Melech Hamoshiach eventually, some make it a point of publicizing it, some shy away, after all, it's from Gemorah Sanhedrin that every talmid believes his Rebbe is Moshiach. Sanhedrin clearly says Moshiach can be from the dead as well, as Tzadikim will have techiyas hameisim before the hisgalus. There is quite a faction in Lubavitch that openly refer to the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, but never say Shlit"a.
As far as 770 is concerned, the gaboyim in control are community elected (the crown heights community) their position on the spectrum is leaning towards the mishechist side, but there are crowds of the extreme there who practically control the place. They act as if nothing changed, the Rebbe's place is set up everyday three times for each davening, they form a pathway and sing Yechi before and after each davening, they say Yechi after krias hatorah and after each davening, but this is all they do on an average weekday, Shabbos it get's a little more extreme, they set up the table where the Rebbe farbrenged every Shabbos and they turn benches and tables toward it and stand there for at least 3 hours as if the Rebbe is actually farbrenging, anyone who tries to stop them moving benches or talks too close to them.....there are more extreme occasional situations but for the most part it's not too extreme. Very few Lubavitchers steer clear of the main shule in 770, only the extreme "anti" won't ever go to 770.
The bottom line is that not everyone who believes the Rebbe is still alive is that extreme or crazy, there is basis for it, they don't necessarily believe it in the most physical sense, but there are various things they can mean, (a certain mashpia in a yeshiva who is known more as an "anti" confided to me privately that even today, when he sits down to write a Pan, he begins with "Pan L'Cha"K ADMu"R  Shlit"a, it's only in such a serious moment when to him the Rebbe is very much alive, that he actually writes it like that) (BTW the Rebbe many times used the term Shlit'a after the passing of the Frierdiker Rebbe among other references, he also never said Ztz"l or any other kind of suffix on the Frierdiker Rebbe, although he did write it) Many Lubavitchers who still say or write Shlit"a do it based on the fact their feeling to the Rebbe that he's very much alive through his children, i.e. chassidim and shluchim, mah zaroi bachayim af hu bachayim. The Rebbe once explained that the proclamation of Yechi Hamelech by the people adds life where it's apparently lacking, the Rebbe said this regarding the Frierdiker Rebbe on the yohrtzeit of the Rebbe Rashab, the day the Frierdiker Rebbe effectively took over.

There's much to be discussed on this topic, ein kan hamakom lehaarich....

February 03, 2015, 12:02:49 AM
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
The way this mashpia used it seems to be more in a sense of tzadikim bmisoson keruyim chaim taken a bit emotionally
that's my point, that everyone who would use Shlit"a has a different level of what they mean, to some it can mean more literal than others.

Take a look at what Rashi says in Daniel 12:12 http://www.sefaria.org/Rashi_on_Daniel.12.12.1
To many, this is merely and helem v'hester since almost the entire chabad openly proclaimed Yechi to the Rebbe as early as 1991, the Rebbe would not lie, this can only be the fulfillment of the above Rashi. - This is just one possible opinion, as I said there are many different levels, there are also different levels from what a person actually believes and what he'll actually tell someone he believes...

February 03, 2015, 07:10:12 PM
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
Wow best summary I've seen yet. For the most part it describes the situation on the ground pretty accurately. I only have 2 comments for the whole long Drashah:
While it's true they that, for the most part, they won't throw out a Shliach from before '94 who says Yechi, the reality is that these days it would be extremely difficult for a vocal Meshichist to find "official" Shlichus. The overwhelming majority of Head Shluchim are not Meshichist and would not hire someone who will say Yechi. Which is the reason why the overwhelming majority of "unofficial" Shluchim are Meshichist (the remaining minority are mostly Shluchim who were brought down as official Shluchim, got into a disagreement with their head Shliach and got fired but didn't want to leave their posts).
AFAIK there was only one time (12 Tamuz 5710, a few months after the Frierdiker Rebbe passed away) where The Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe as "Der Rebbe Zohl Gezunt Zein". Though if you look at the Sichah of Rosh Chodesh Sivan 5710 you can see the background to that statement and there The Rebbe qualified it by explaining that he's talking about Ruchniyusdike health. In writing The Rebbe ALWAYS reffered to the Frierdker Rebbe with the title זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע.
I guess we can all be thankful you decided NOT to be Ma'arich ;D

let me try address a few of your points:

The reason why most Shluchim seem to be more "anti" inclined, is simply because it's a lot easier to take that approach when dealing with outsiders, it's hard to mix spiritual feelings into something physical and practical, you can't tell a non religious Jew that you met that The Rebbe is still alive, he'll look at you like nuts, he watched CNN in 1994 and saw the funeral! but the community of CH is probably more "mishechist" inclined, they lived with the Rebbe and saw him on a daily basis and we all heard the Rebbe say clearly that this is the last generation of Golus and the first generation of Geula. Being on Shlichus, not saying Yechi for the practical reasons will eventually rub off on your own belief and your kids as well, that likely why most shluchim are more 'anti' what else do you tell your balebatim when you host a farbrengen on gimel tamuz?

As far as the Rebbe saying Shlit"a on the Frierdiker Rebbe, there are a few times where the Rebbe said it clearly, Simchas Torah 5711 (Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5710(or maybe 5711) page 52, Parshas Vayakhel and Purim 5711, Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5711 vol 1 page 274 and 327. and a few other places. Also in 5752 when the Rebbe had a yechidus with Mordechai Eliyahu, the Rebbe referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe with Shlit"a, it wasn't just once. The time you mentioned is when a chosid wrote that in to the Rebbe and the Rebbe said "bemes neheneisi" Toras Menachem Hisvaaduyos 5710 page 83.
Another time the Rebbe dismissed people saying nishmaso beginzei meromim, explaining that who are we to tell the Frierdiker Rebbe where he is, why are we separating ourselves from him? he's right here with us! why do we try send him away? (page 106). I don't believe the Rebbe ALWAYS referred to the Frierdiker Rebbe with זצוקללה"ה נבג"ם זי"ע, defintely many times but I wouldn't jump to write always in caps!

I got these page numbers from a compilation someone put together of all the sources for anything to do with Rebbe, Moshiach, Shlit"a etc. The book is only photocopies from seforim, there are no droshos explaining anything, it's just for the reader to see the sources and make his own decisions from there.

February 03, 2015, 07:35:55 PM
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
I'm no expert in this stuff, but did people said the entire yechi before the Rebbe's stroke?

And what do you do with the stories of the Rebbe getting angry with those who dropped yechi pamphlets, etc?

yes, the first time on video was 15 iyar 5751, almost a year before the stroke. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z0EHmT4rPAg

Interestingly, someone pointed out to me a pattern, whenever someone informed the Rebbe about such a peula, the Rebbe responded with words of encouragement and satisfaction and gave his brochos for continuation, yeilchu michayil el choyil etc. however if someone asked in advance, the Rebbe usually discouraged it, there are also times when people wrote in panim and letters adressing the Rebbe as Melech Hamoshiach, to which the Rebbe responded I'll give it to him when he's nisgaleh, buth there are stories as early as 1964 when a certain chosid sent in a Pan addressed Pan Lcha"k Admu"r Melech Hamoshiach Shlit"A and the Rebbe accepted it. I guess the Rebbe knew their intentions...

February 03, 2015, 07:59:29 PM
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
To simplify the whole thing, it's like this:

There are 3 groups within the Lubavitch.

1) The Meshichistin. They make up about 1%
2) The Anti Meshichistin. They make up another 1%.
3) The other 98% are the "I Don't Give a Shistim."

/my contribution to deep ideological conversations/flame-wars.

besides for what I wrote about no groups, rather a spectrum, i still think your numbers are way off.
I also think that the middle group is the worst, as a Lubavitcher you should be serious about such an inyan, regardless which way your inclined to, it should be important to you, and taking the attitude of don't give a shist, is a kaltkeit, indifference, which is the opposite of what Chabad is about. If you're a real chossid, this should be a matter of concern. I'm not saying you need to become a fanatic, but you need to have your own opinion sorted out in your head, regardless of what you show to others.

February 04, 2015, 06:41:26 PM
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Re: Messianism among Lubavitch
It all sounds crazy, and although I may fall into the "anti" side of the spectrum, you really do get incredible answers.
Not too many from the anti side of the spectrum will admit/agree to that ;)
stop considering yourself an anti!

February 04, 2015, 06:55:12 PM
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Re: The Travel Collection - New amex benefit for gold and plat.
Signed up because why not. Annoying that you have to call a rep to get prices for flights. Hotels have limited selection. You're better off using FHR through Amex for more hotels and better benefits.

  • Best rate available guarantee
  • Daily breakfast for two people
  • Room upgrade upon check-in (based on availability)
  • Guaranteed early check-in (1pm)
  • Complimentary in-room Wi-Fi
  • Receive a property amenity credit valued at $50 (per stay) on qualifying purchases

There's no overlap at all between FHR and TTC, these are new hotels, never before bookable with benefits

August 29, 2018, 07:47:45 PM
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