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The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
Unreal that they still serve cholov stam.  Hopefully COs caterer wins out.
Unreal that OU requires all bread rolls served on airlines to be Hamotzi,
(and the card that comes with the meal tactfully suggest, "if washing is inconvenient on the plane, why don't you enjoy the breadroll at home", like, really!)
but don't require Cholov Yisroel.
Just goes to show that financial considerations trump Halachic ones.
[For those that don't get it, Mezonos CAN be made on Mezonos breadrolls if a number of criteria are met, whereas Cholov "Stam" is complete nada for those who don't accept Reb Moshe's Psak.]
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January 30, 2012, 06:33:02 PM
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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread
Unless you hold like a very mechudash chasam sofer , chalav stam is basically pashut.
If you are koveah seudah, you must make hamotzi and bentch, despite the fast that the criteria you mentioned were met.
Chalav stam is at worst a din d'rabanan. bircas hamazon is a din d'oraisa and according to most rishonim you are not yotze mid'oraisa with Al hamichya.
The only clear D'Orayso I see here is an Am Haoretz D'oRayso.

Cholov Yisroel: In his generation, Reb Moshe was pretty much the only Posek who was Matir Cholov Stam, even though, as he himself writes in his Teshuvos, he never personally relied on his Hetter, and he never let Cholov Stam enter his house. All of his contemporaries disagreed with him. The Chassam Sofer I presume you quote (YD 107) is pretty much status quo, and no need to re-hash it on DDF when it is all spelled out clearly in the many Teshuvos which discuss it.  See Igros Moshe [YD 1:46] where he himself writes that we Pasken like the Chassam Sofer, and therefore looks for other leniencies.

[The only "Chiddush" that there might be in the Chasam Sofer is his opinion that for those who pasken like the lenient opinions of the Radvaz and Pri Chadash, yet choose to be Machmir anyways, their Chumra takes on the status of a personal Neder which is D'Orayso. However, this is somewhat irrelevant to Chalav Stam, since we don't pasken like the lenient opinions in the first place, and even if we did, those opinions anyways cannot be relied upon for Cholov Stam, since they were only Mattir when there are no non-Kosher dairy animals in the country.]

Mezonos Rolls: As you yourself write "If you are Koveah Seudah". Did you ever entertain the thought that someone might not be interested in eating the whole airline meal, and just wants to snack on the pitifully-sized bread roll?

As to the last nonsense you wrote: "Chamurim Divrei Sofrim Yoser MiDivrei Torah". And Benching is not D'Orayso unless you ate Kdei Sviah.

January 30, 2012, 07:50:16 PM
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Re: Re: Airline Compensation Master Thread  
Unnecessary
Agreed. And so was your initial response.
 
Just because he says a Baal nefesh should be machmir does not mean he thought it was assur. He would have not been matir if he thought so.

Of course if Reb Moshe was Mattir, then he trusted his Psak. At the same time, let us put this Hetter in the context that Reb Moshe puts it in:

•   “For a Bal Nefesh, it is certainly appropriate to be stringent” (YD 1:48 and 1:49).
•   “Nevertheless, it is fitting to be stringent” (YD 2:31; no mention of Bal Nefesh).
•   Yeshivos should only serve Cholov Yisroel, despite the heavy financial burden (YD 2:35).
•   This leniency should only be relied on Bishas Hadchak, and not merely due to a small additional expense (YD 4:5).
•   If one's Minhag is to not rely on the Hetter, or he chose not to rely on the Hetter, he may not subsequently be lenient.

In any case, my point is not that Reb Moshe can’t be relied upon – CH”V to suggest such a thing. It is up to the individual, under the guidance of his LOR, to determine how he should conduct himself. 

My point is that a vast segment of the Frum community does not rely on Reb Moshe’s Psak. And, no orthodox rabbi worth his salt would suggest that someone completely disregard his stringent Minhag, due to Reb Moshe’s Psak. This would be going againt Reb Moshe himself. That being the case, it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.
 
I think we can all agree he was the posek hador.
...which didn’t stop most of his contemporary poskim from disagreeing with him.
 
The chasam sofer is mechadesh that an umdenah dmuchach does not suffice forChalav yisroel,, nothing short of yisroel roeh is ok. That to me is the best reason to be machmir but a big chiddush. Other earlier poskim being machmir doesn't necessarily prove anything as there was no umdanah demuchach based on government supervision.

The Chasam Sofer does not mention a word about Umdenah DeMuchach. The gist of his words is that Cholov Yisroel is a Dovor Shebminyan; a decree which remains completely in force even when the time and circumstances changes. He explains that this is the opinion of most Ashkenazi Rishonim and Achronim, and is binding for an Ashkenazi. [The Chasam Sofer adds that some Sefardi Rishonim disagree with the above, and that some Sfardi communities are therefore lenient. However, the Sdei Chemed writes that, in our time, the Sfardim have also adopted the position that Cholov Yisroel is a Dovor Shebminyan.] Therefore, a Yid must actually see the milking process. [Of course, what constitutes “seeing” is not so simple, see Shulchan Oruch for details.] Otherwise, it is forbidden.

As I stated before, the Chasam Sofer's Teshuvah is pretty much status quo, and Reb Moshe himself agrees with it. Which is why he forbids buying milk directly from a farmer, (or any other situation which does not involve government oversight,) even when circumstantial evidence completely indicates that the milk is Tahor (YD 1:46). This is because the milking process was not seen .

If there is any Chiddush over here, it is the opinion of Reb Moshe, not the Chasam Sofer. Reb Moshe posits that one can rely on government oversight - a situation that the earlier Poskim did not speak about, and neither did the Chasam Sofer! Reb Moshe's reasoning is that government oversight not only constitutes a “Birur” (clarification), but actual R’Iyah (seeing) by a Yid. His reasons for this is way beyond the scope of a post on DDF, (you can check it up in YD 1:47 and 1:48,) but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to perceive that there is a big Chiddush here. And it is this Chiddush that most other Poskim disagree with, both from a Halachic perspective as well as a practical one. I could list some of their concerns briefly, but that would add at least another 50 lines to this post.
 
And yet sofek drabanan lekula and poskim are always more mekil about derabanans than d'oraisahs. Go figure. Anything else you want to quote out of context?
I didn’t quote anything out of context. One must be as careful – if not more careful – with a D’rabanan than with a D’Orayso.

The concept of Sofek D’Orayos L’Chumra and Sofek D’rabanan L’kula does not indicate that a Drabanan is "less important" than a D'Orayso. This is a common misconception. The reason that "Sofek D’rabanan L’kula" is because of "Hem Omru V’hem Omru".
 
True. But this depends on how much you ate and how big of an appetite you have
Yup. That is what Kdei Sviah means.

Even without R' Moshe; it was a din dirabonen when an Akum couldn't be trusted; R' Moshe was "michadesh" that an Akum could now be trusted again.
Nonsense, nonsense, nonsense; absolute and complete nonsense.
I challenge you to find even one Posek who ever said such a thing. And don’t just throw out a name; please include a quote or reference.

As for the American OU, they are an organization in America, and IMHO, they have a right to follow the posek of America, without coming under fire.
As I said above, it is unfair for the OU to disregard a large segment of the community, which are required – by Reb Moshe himself – to be stringent. Remember, on an airplane you can’t just pick yourself up and go to the local caterer of your choice.

Mods: I realize that this discussion has spiralled onto a tangent. Feel free to extract this discussion into a new thread.

January 31, 2012, 04:51:08 AM
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Re: The Rolls Must Be Hamotzi, But The Milk Can Be Cholov Stam
R' Moshe goes as far as to say that if someone kept cholov yisroel thinking it was meIkar deDeina he doesn't even need to be matir neder because it is a mistake.
this seems to me to indicate that R' Moshe didn't really see another tzad, perhaps i'm mistaken.
This is not so.
Reb Moshe is addressing a simple - independent - issue.
Granted that one wishes to be סומך on those who are מיקל, but since he was מחמיר up until now, he might think he needs to continue being מחמיר, due to a totally separate concern - that since he did it three times, it has the status of a נדר.
As we say in התרת נדרים, any good practice done three times has the status of a נדר to some degree:
או אֵיזו הַנְהָגָה טובָה שֶׁנָּהַגְתִּי שָׁלשׁ פְּעָמִים וְלא הִתְנֵיתִי שֶׁיְּהֵא בְּלִי נֶדֶר

So Reb Moshe is clarifying - as most other Poskim hold - that when one did a certain practice three times due to a misconception, (in our case he thought that there are no Poskim who hold you can be מיקל with regards to חלב), this does not have the תוקף of a נדר.

Another famous example of this: Some Poskim say that if someone was careful to give מעשר כספים because he thought it was a דרבנן, and then he discovers that others hold that it is only a מנהג and he wants to be מיקל, he doesn't have to be concerned about הלכות נדרים, because his original conduct was based on a misconception.
Obviously, these Poskim do not mean to say that there is no Tzad to say מעשר כספים is מדרבנן.

August 02, 2013, 12:18:08 AM
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November 01, 2016, 09:15:12 AM
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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
I just sent Dan an essay which lays out most of the issues. I am just making a couple of brief comments here on some of the posts above:
Does that really only happen once a year all around the area near the pole, or does the sun make several passes skimming  below and above the horizon around the equinox in those areas away from the exact pole?
At the exact Poles, it happens once a year only.
For where we were going, the only shayla was for Lubavitchers.
The bulk of the issues only affected Lubavitchers. But the issue of the absence of Tzeis would have affected everyone.
Especially since the Rebbe is a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar.  ;)
It is true the Rebbe was a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar, but on this point, he clearly disagreed. See Igros Kodesh Volume 2 page 94, Toras Menachem 5746 Vol 2 page 847.
I've been a Zmanim enthusiast for many years now and was well aware of the שקיעה אמיתית concept but it seems like it's only recently that it's becoming mainstream to use it for calculating regular Zmanim such as סוף זמן קריאת שמע and פלג המנחה Lechumra.
It has become more mainstream ever since Chabad.org has adopted it as their default option. But it is not the consensus, and ppl should consult their Rav, or adopt the stringencies of both opinions (which is generally not such a big deal, as the difference is minor unless you are near the Poles).
That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
But that would lead to problems where the two models are mutually exclusive. For example, Licht Bentchen would be close to midnight according to Standard Zmanim, but before 6pm true solar time according to the Ben Ish Chai’s Polar model. This leads to a conundrum: If you light before 6pm, this will be way too early if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Standard Zmanim. If you light shortly before midnight, this will be way too late if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Polar Zmanim model of the Ben Ish Chai.
Same shaala when traveling to HKG on the polar route and night doesn't fall, Summer, or the sun doesn't rise, winter, and you arrive two days later...
Indeed, transpolar flights are a major issue and many people don’t even realise. I am BEH working on an updated write-up about this.

January 06, 2019, 10:47:45 PM
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