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Re: Abortion = Murder?
I'm equally boggled in the opposite direction. How can an (I assume) frum Jew wish that the government not impose rules against slaying an unborn child.
Because I don't want the government coming into my life and telling me what I can and cannot do, besides for the fact that the Torah's view on abortion definitely does not line up with any of these proposed laws.

May 15, 2019, 07:12:19 PM
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Thoughts on abortion, religion, and morality I've been thinking a lot about abortion and what's going in the news lately.

I'm a frum woman, mother of 2, and being pro-life seemed almost instinctual to me. But beyond my personal beliefs, debating the legality or illegality of abortion requires understanding the (euphemistically named) pro-choice position.

So the defense agains the common pro-abortion arguments are as follows:

1. "My body, my choice": This argument (which often gets intertwined with the viability argument) imagines that since the fetus is inside the mother's womb and cannot survive on its own, it's considered part of the mother. This would be the equivalent of assuming that a car parked inside a garage is part of the house. Or that a cake baking in the oven is part of the oven. The viability argument isn't too sure-footed either. A 3-month-old baby would also die if they were left alone. A toddler would also die if no one would feed them. Some adult husbands would die if they weren't fed ;) . The fact that someone requires care doesn't mean that they don't have the right to exist.

2. "A fetus isn't a baby": Well, that's right, a fetus isn't a baby. Just the same way a baby isn't a child and a child isn't a teenager and a teenager isn't an adult. They're all at different developmental stages. But ultimately, they are all human. It's a human fetus. In fact, if you can handle it- take a look at these first trimester images and tell me that this isn't a human.

3. The rape/incest case: As horrible and as tragic as these cases are, getting an abortion doesn't take away the rape. Furthermore, the unborn child isn't guilty of the crimes of his father. How can we justify taking someone's innocent life for a crime he didn't commit?

For the offensive play, pro-lifers point out the brutality of abortion.
Many people don't even know that most surgical abortions involve at the very least the dismemberment of the fetus. While rare, late term saline abortions have the baby undergo chemical burns from the inside out. If you have the stomach for it, you can google other late term abortion horrors.
You can learn about the actual details of an abortion procedure here, it's not the same as having a cancerous, clump of tissue removed.

There is evidence that suggest that the fetus can feel pain from 16weeks and on:
Quote
we cannot deny that the fetal nervous system mounts protective responses to tissue injury. A physiological fetal reaction to painful stimuli occurs from between 16 and 24 weeks’ gestation on.


On the scientific front things seem clear. A fetus is it's own human being, with it's own distinct set of DNA.


But things get murkier- what do we say to those babies being born into poverty, into immature and even neglectful families, those born with conditions that will make their life a struggle? What about those babies who are simply unwanted? Are they better off dead?


What if in the future we will have guaranteed pain-free abortions? What if scientists could find incontrovertible truth that babies are not conscious prior to birth? Would that change things?


Pro-life proponents would still argue "no". And that brings us to the heart of the matter: the sanctity of life. And this is the underlying answer to all of the pro-life arguments. This is why it doesn't matter what Life is, or when exactly it starts. Life is precious. Life is the most. precious. thing. Even the life of an unwanted, inconvenient baby. Even the life of a rapist's child. Even the life of a baby with Down Syndrome. Even the life of a baby who will grow up to live a poor, hard, obstacle-ridden, mostly miserable life.


At least that's how I see it.


But this is no longer a cold-hard, logical, scientific truth. The sanctity of life is a uniquely religious idea. Because we are made in the image of G-d, that is why human life is precious. If we remove G-d from the picture- is life precious from an evolutionary standpoint? Is the 80-90 year lifespan of one (statistically prone to be) unremarkable human important among the millions of years, millions of species that precede and succeed it? Not much. Should this clump of molecules, this group of atoms matter more than this amoeba, that bacteria, this asteroid shooting, hurtling around in galaxy? And if this particular life will be difficult and often unhappy, then maybe it's even a kindness to kill it.


So for me, ultimately it's an issue of morality. And morality is inherently a religious constructs. Again, if nature is king and evolution dictates the progression of the world- why does social justice matter? In fact, in today's parlance, evolution is 'racist'! According to natural selection, it's only inevitable that 'the fittest' end up on top. That the smartest and strongest dominate and exploit the weaker isn't evil or unjust- it's only the way nature is designed!


So now, does immoral = illegal?
Should it?


As a frum jew, from a Torah perspective, something is illegal precisely because it is immoral. But is that something we should pursue in a secular government? What about separation of church and state?
I remember frum Jews posting somewhat celebratory messages when gay marriage was legalized in 2015. The government shouldn't dictate the terms of morality, they wrote.


But where is the line drawn? And what kind of arguments can be made when God is removed from the picture?


If you've made it this far- thanks! I'd love to hear your thoughts.

May 16, 2019, 02:44:22 PM
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Re: Site Suggestions
see my first post
What does it have to do with anything?!

question for the world. im kind new to the whole visa GC, BB transfer at a WM ATM situation. unfortunately like most ppl. all the NCR ATM machines are out of order. so i need other methods of cashing out my GCs. my next best option is to have a cashier do it for me. can someone please walk me through the process? itll be really helpful. thanks a million!!

June 04, 2019, 02:46:05 PM
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Re: Quaker Chewy Granola Bars Variety Pack, 58 Count-$8.25 or less https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01GQ5WNC0/?tag=cl03f-20&smid=ATVPDKIKX0DER

$7.69

July 07, 2019, 08:06:34 PM
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July 10, 2019, 08:27:44 AM
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Re: Targeted get a $10 amazon credit after watching a tv show or movie via prime vid
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Im not a rav..... but offer includes jewish movies including menashe ;)
How to find out if you are targeted? Clicking on the above link does not tell me if targeted or not?

July 22, 2019, 09:21:58 PM
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July 31, 2019, 06:12:36 AM
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August 14, 2019, 11:19:23 PM
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Re: Tickets for the "2020 Siyam Hashas" Wheres the Dayis going to be positioned? Title gets an Ouch!
August 20, 2019, 07:28:18 AM
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Re: Buy 2 get 1 free Kitchenware (Reynolds, Hefty, Ziploc, Etc)
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September 04, 2019, 12:15:44 PM
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