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Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Psychologically, the message needs to be changed. If you keep saying everything is status quo and we don't know when it will be different, people just stop listening.
Is that how Halacha works?

I don't know that he's wrong - its not about the halacha, its the method and delivery of the psak. You can tell your kids "no" in different ways and the method of delivery will impact on their acceptance and obedience.

However, he is not correct about the language of this statement by the Rabbanim. The message from the Rabbanim is not "status quo and we dont know when it will change" that was one sentence in the middle of the statement. The larger message was that although we all very much want minyanim, the Drs say its not safe and Pikuach Nefesh is above all.

Like most, I very much miss my shul. Other than travel related issues, I had not missed a shacharis with a minyan since my youngest was born 15 years ago. I was part of a regular nightly daf since 2005 (although that at least we do by phone conference 6 nights a week) and I lain a few times a week. I really miss being in shul.

But having said that, I understand and accept that my Rav and the other Rabbanim in Long Island know halacha and know what's best for the community. If they say no porch or basement minyanim, that's the psak.

May 06, 2020, 07:28:27 AM
Re: How should schools and parents deal with tuition?
I'm not asking this to be insensitive, but merely to have a better understanding.

OK, I'll bite.

There are quite a few members on this thread who seem to have a clear or implicit bias toward this matter. Some are biased because they themselves or a family member has children who attend a school.

This is not a bias. Anyone who has children sends them to school. The conversation begins where you are paying for a product or service that you are not receiving.

Some were simply (B"H) unaffected by deaths of relatives and friends from Covid, and have no problem making judgements on "yenems cheshbon". Yet others consider themselves to be righteous and saintly, and demand that we live our lives as usual, including minyanim, open businesses, etc. regardless of the illness, death, and devastation we will leave in our path.

This has absolutely nothing to do with this conversation. You can take it to the "is your shul still open?" thread.

Schools are offering a product which is not the same as the stellar product they always do, as are ALL OTHER BUSINESSES, because they have been forced to discontinue regular operations. Nontheless, the classes are still far harder to prepare for and administer than a physical class would be, many more hours of preparation than a physical class would be, and require the teachers and staff to continue operations as usual despite also being home with their families.

You failed to mention that all other business do NOT charge for a service that they are unable to provide, regardless of how many hoops they have to jump through.

I reject the notion that the schools, many of whom have lost revenue, are working harder, and already offer most parents a price that is BELOW COST of their product due to the generosity and hard work of others

A price is a price. The fact that Jewish schools run on a deficit doesn't change this fact.

and never force you to give more than you are able, but work with you at your personal income level despite the cost,

If you run a school, you are welcome to speak for yourself. Schools that I know will milk every dollar they can out of the parents. If you don't demand a discount, they will take you to the cleaners. And again, it's irrelevant whether the price covers the school's expenses or not.

a business model thatís unheard of, are responsible to continue educating your children at the same price so that they can educate your children properly during and after Covid.

No, it's very much heard of. It's called being a non-profit. Let me know when they are ready to drop their not-for-profit status and start paying tax like a business.

As I see it, if teachers have to take pay cuts, parents need to accept lower quality schooling now and forever.

The teachers will deal with it the same way parents are with their own lost jobs and paycuts, and they should be able to get funds from the PPP.

I don't understand why parents feel completely immune to dealing with the consequences of Covid, when almost everyone else has to deal with it in every other area of their lives. Oddly, I donít see people requesting that grocery stores and pharmacies, already making large profits, lower their prices to match the aid they may or may not be receiving.

Seriously? What kind of comparison is this? If your grocery store shorted you on products you ordered, you would absolutely get a refund.


The most glaring part of this is, I highly doubt there is any poster who has reached out to the school to renegotiate because of their trying circumstances and been refused a further discount to the presumably already deeply discounted rate they were paying. I am not asking parents to increase tuition to at least cover the cost of educating their own child. I am asking them to be proactively upfront with the schools if they are having trouble. Some have done this. Most have not. I don't appreciate them taking for granted that they may continue bashing schools as if they are being ripped off by continuing to pay the same price for a service that, while the product is diminished, takes more effort to produce hpwhen they are not doing that in any other area of their life, and the school would be more than happy to negotiate at any time if they have further financial stress.

No offense, but this stinks of utter bias.

Parents are the customers. Parents paid for a service that is not being provided as agreed upon. The onus lies squarely on the SCHOOL to reach out and explain why they have the right to continue charging for a service that they are not providing as agreed upon. They should not be depositing any checks or charging any cards until they reach out and ask the parents if they are OK with being charged for a service that was not provided. I'm not interested in excuses about how parents already got a discount. It's irrelevant. If you got a discount on a car, you'd still expect the car to be in the shape it was advertised in, and you would still demand a refund if it was not.

Also, your assumption that nobody reached out to the schools is simply wrong. I know for a fact that my sons school did not answer any calls. period.

May 07, 2020, 12:22:59 AM
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Most of them want to permit what the law allows without making too many extra decrees.

They are working  with government officials  and doctors including direct contact with Cuomo (through a close connection). It seems they want to start with outdoor minyanim in a way that within NYS strict guidelines, then will ease up as the NYS allows them to. They are even going to be machmir more than required by law.

If they would just be complacent and wait for the green light without any hishtadlus, we would not have minyanim for months. Its going to have to be gradual. They are working together with other religious groups who also want to open. It would be pretty sad if churches open and shuls don't.

As an aside, the letter posted earlier written by a local leader is disturbing to say the least. Why does that writer feel that any Rabbi who disagrees with him is labeled by the term "hubris"? Why does he feel that his way is the way of tour community and those who disagree are doing so because "they feel they are wiser than" his "community"?  How dare any leader say that any Rabbi (some very great ones in fact) who diagrees with him is violating halacha and their davening is worthless? How does one, anyone, have the audacity to say a leader in town who happens to be in aveilus and saying kaddish for his parent, is actually disgracing their memory. To me it sounds like that letter writer is the one with a severe case of "yuhara". Its his way or no way.  You will not see any of the Rabbis on the other side come out with any statement against the OU or their Rabbis even though they disagree. Who is the one with the hubris issue?
This is very rich coming from you with the way you have written about others in this thread.

May 08, 2020, 08:06:43 AM
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Sorry. I should have realized you are not capable of understanding.
Your comments are nasty, attacking, and lack any substance.

May 08, 2020, 09:39:17 AM
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
That is the issue. He was implying that anybody who disagrees with him are not worthy of being Rabonim. When in fact many Rabonim disagreed with him, albeit with different approaches. Some (great Rabonim) have been davening and/or leading safe legal minyanim this entire time. (In some cases even davening for the amud when they were a chiyuv.) Some were afraid to do that, but privately allowed and/or encouraged others to do so. And some went along out of fear. There were also many who agreed with him too.

There was a lot of bullying in the background which prevented many Rabonim to express what they really feel. Those Rabonim wanted achdus more than anything else. But it has come to a point where although one side was playing nice, some on the pther side refuse to do so.

So you call the way you were writing over here playing nice or you are on the side refusing to do so?

May 08, 2020, 11:39:15 AM
Re: Is there a second wave?
No one was calling for it. Revisionist history
I understand that suits your agenda because you are once again calling for everything to reopen up, as you have all along, and donít want to take responsibility for your actions, but it shouldnít take too much research to find the thousands of posts on here calling for people to shut down. Start with @chevron favorite thread, the ďRabbanim wake upĒ thread. Iím not saying it was written respectfully but if you deny many people were calling for it, youíre the one rewriting history.

May 08, 2020, 02:24:00 PM
Re: Is there a second wave?
The Lakewood doctors whom the town listens to were indeed calling for business as usual. Just about all of them. A few fringe doctors calling for shutdowns before purim.
Lies. Everyone but one major doctor called for serious restrictions. I personally spoke to 2 doctors right after Purim before people woke up and they warned that the situation was dire, and one of them has unfortunately since succumbed to the virus.

May 08, 2020, 02:25:48 PM
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
Some on there claim to have never signed. Some on there signed because they had to, but privately told people they can daven by safe legal minyanim.
this is not a valid response. whoever says (i) they never signed privately (but doesnt clarify publicly/doesnt let you tell us who he is) or (ii) they were forced is either a total nobody/loser who can't stand for himself and clarify his opinions, or a liar. either way his psak/opinion isnt worth much.

May 08, 2020, 03:20:30 PM
Re: Minyan Guidance In Your Community

Agav, I find it funny that people who live their whole lives with an eye to Gan Eden have trouble understanding refraining from an action for which you wonít see results for 2 weeks..

Ok Iím done letís not hijack another thread

Trying to get there quicker. Too much?

May 08, 2020, 03:37:31 PM
Re: 5 Towns/Rockaway Rabbonim Ban All Minyanim Due To COVID-19 (Split Topic)
There were more than one.b One Rov said he verified with other colleagues and their names were also put on without authorization.

They don't put out a letter because they are not on a campaign and do not have an agenda. They communicate with their Kehila and their Kehila know what their Rov holds. These Rabonim don't really care what everyone else says or thinks about them.

If their names were signed without their permission but they donít want anyone to know this - I think they should choose a new profession.

May 09, 2020, 11:58:25 PM