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Messages - chevron

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76
How long are we going to make the what about x argument? Don’t go to groceries or hardware stores either. Rabbis don’t control stores. They can pasken about minyanim. People need food they go to grocery. Rabbi-Dr Glatt has said numerous times that visits to the groceries should be only when needed, very quick and only one person per family. It’s is preferable to get things delivered.

Haven’t the studies showed that only 20% of the population may have anti-bodies? So screw the other 80%? If you think those 80% will be smart enough to stay away from minyanim and Shuls by themselves - after reading this forum and the other “frum” site I am fairly confident in saying they are not.

So what happens? We have more sickness and more deaths. Why? Because we never learn our lesson.

My fatherinlaws shul in Flatbush was open a full two weeks longer than my shul in five towns. So many people got sick and there were deaths from that shul. I told him what is wrong with your shul just shut it. The reply was “the Rav believes in the koach of teffilah betizibur”. I heard they are making plans to reopen their shul very soon.

So this is why we can’t have minyanim yet. People have a very short-term memory and in general seem to be extremely foolish about this. As sad as it is to say, we cannot leave people to their own devices.

That is what I have been saying for months. But logic is stronger than common sense..

"But oj Simpson got away with murder, what's the big deal j only punched the guy in the face"

77
No, you don’t take visitors. Guess he’ll have to visit your grandmother ;)

It's a she and she absolutely welcome to visit my bubby

79
It’s not that “they”re doing x”, it’s “we are already doing x”. If the same people who are not going to make the yard minyan are going to be doing other permitted activities then why ban the yard minyan (unless you are worried about aiva)? Many of these same people who you are warning not to make a minyan are going to be hitting the FL boardwalk and beaches as soon as they open. Go into any Lakewood store especially Thursday and Friday and you will see hordes of people, many shopping for non-essentials, often without gloves. The same holds true for the non-Jewish stores. Six feet of distancing does not happen. Same holds true for other permitted activities. There is so much more exposure at this point. Why limit minyan specifically? If you want to put out a letter that we are better and have higher standards of chashash sakana so no one may visit any of the permitted venues (and anyone who does with forfeit his shul membership) we can debate whether that is reasonable but that at least brings some consistency.

So, if people are anyways going to sit immodestly by the pool on Shabbat, we should encourage them instead to drive to shul.

That is the Crux of your logic. You're mixing shul and state.

In general the guidance was to social distance and avoid stores and such.

Just highlighting the stupidity of it all doesn't warrant opening shuls.

That's like closing the shul in a blizzard and arguing "but people are sledding"

It's the Rav's responsibility to look after the shul and those who pray there, general health guidelines were sent out in my community.

We also distributed masks that everyone should have for shopping.


80
BTW, for the record I am the proud 1/3 owner of an apartment in Century Village Deerfield which I inherited but I have never actually seen it.

You're not missing much

81
Just Shmooze / Re: How much milk do you have in your fridge?
« on: May 13, 2020, 03:59:57 PM »
I don't have any milk in my fridge.

I do have a fridge just for wine. I'm very machmir not to mix them up.

Also processed cereal is mad unhealthy

82
I'm interested in flying to south Florida to visit some relatives.  What are the government rules about quarantining myself? What is the actual local practice?

The regulations I read said I'd have to quarantine for 14 days.  Does that mean I can quarantine at my relative?  Or I have to stay elsewhere for that long?

(I had covid and have antibodies - so I'm not likely to be shedding virus.)

Are you coming to visit me

83
You are correct in theory. In practice that is not how it is structured. My aunt in South FL still calls the Five Towns Rav with her shaylos. Hard to fault them for acting vis a vis the reality on the ground.

That's nice, meanwhile rabbanim in South Florida get no sleep as they try to keep your aunt and others alive.

It's not fair. I'm a native here, my grandparents came 40 years ago.

It's wrong to do this, no respect for Miami rabbanim, new Yorkers are here, yes we know you by your Cadillac Escalade as long as my house.


84
Can’t disagree with that, provided we are talking about a kehilla with the kind of relationship with the Rav where the  Rav is the final word in all other matters of yahadus as well. The breach of that structure via rebellion with the goal of undermining the Ravs authority is far worse than any individual failure of a kehilla member, even a serious failure such as shabbos or arayos.

That does not seem to be the dynamic here.

How do we know that they were even talking about locals?  We have no hotels in our area. As for the Miami beach community, I have no idea what goes on.

But don't pick and choose, halacha isn't a binary option. You sound like me, I argued that texting while driving is actually more dangerous than drinking and driving.. my friend scoffed and said it's not drink or text, you do neither

85
What makes you think the Rabbi of the young Israel is the chain in these peoples mesorah. These are retirees from across the United States and beyond. Many have personal relationships with their Rabbonim from their hometowns. There are hundreds of Rabbonim strongly urging people to make yard minyanim in an acceptably socially distant manner.

Not following the protocols of the local shul (or at least its board members who have sway?) Guilty. But throwing away the mesorah? Hardly.

I understand where you are coming from but then it's exactly the issue.

To have people come retire here and decide it's a hefker velt?

So what about anybody that came in New York or New Jersey and decided that the local rabbanim here are just farmers and only their rabbanim in the old shtub counts.

Halacha doesn't work that way. The Rav of the time holds authority.


86
Also here's what irks me. The elderly here have had this paradise for many years.

Now because of the pandemic, they have to be careful.

It's a chutzpah yeseiga to come from a COVid 19 hotspot and put these elderly at risk.

P.s. where were all you new Yorkers on the south Florida hatzala list?!

87
I said I was going to leave this alone, but I can't.

1) To slander the Jewish communities of South Florida by painting with a broad brush about chillul shabbos and tnius, is abhorrent. To further smear the hashkafa of "their form of religion" like they're distorting Yiddishkeit is disgusting, as are the snide comments about the YI movement as a whole. One sammyp was enough, thank you.

2) To equate not shaming people for their struggle to keep mitzvos with other's flaunting of a rav's psak in the name of frumkeit is disgusting, elitist, and the height of a false equivalence. And as @Sam Finkelstein pointed out, the actual argument itself was also blatantly untrue. Shuls bar people from kibbudim all the time, for a host of reasons, and you not seeing it while you were here on vacation doesn't mean it doesn't happen.

3) Not one of you live in South Florida. Just because you vacation here or know a few snowbirds or transplants, doesn't mean you know this community or any South FL community. The fact that you are bringing up Miami , Boca, and West Palm Beach tells me you have zero clue what you're talking about, regardless of how many retirement shuls you all may have davened in. Everyone is entitled to an opinion, but to have an opinion on something you know nothing about is stupidity. (Btw, look up @reed, the man you just addressed like he's some street thug.)

4) A letter went out from a conglomerate of shuls representing a variety of hashkafos in South Florida, signed by rabbis and doctors alike. It very clearly defined the stance of the majority of the frum communities in South Florida regarding the opening of shuls in accordance with local government directives and the coalition of pulpit rabbis, doctors, and poskim. This YI is not operating in a vacuum.

5) Florida is not NY. Most people here have not had the virus. We are also experiencing a huge influx of people migrating from NY and NJ who have been exposed and/or infected. As you all can attest, there have been many people who have not been as careful as they should have been after exposure/infection. There is a great fear among the local high risk population who need to source their necessities from the same places that these tourists are shopping, and the community leadership needs to address that as they see fit.

6) As @aygart said, when prominent members publicly flaunt the psak of the rov, it needs to be called out. To equate a chazzan, a baal koreh, a maggid shiur, or a board member with the rav is stupid. They are members of high visibility, and maybe even a lot of Torah knowledge in some cases, but they don't get an opinion in piskei dinim. Such public disrespect needs to be addressed, both from a community standpoint and from a halachic standpoint. If there are concerns about the psak that was made, there are proper avenues to address them. Disregarding the psak and the rav is not ok and should not be tolerated in any shul.

I can tell you this first hand.. the amount of cars I see in Miami be now with NY plates makes no sense. The snow birds should be long gone..

I know for a fact many are driving from NY.  My stance basically is, live and let die (great bond film)

But don't come here and kill us.

You want a break from NY? Stay in your vacation house and stay again..

88
If the chazzan and maggid shiur of the largest Young Israel in the country are not on board, odds are you have an issue with buy in. Were the prominent members of the shul consulted/ given a voice? Or was it strong armed by one group of the shul leadership? If so, some soul searching is in order rather than a sledgehammer.

Oh common. Its not the American revolution.

They have issues in the past? Maybe.. I dunno, I don't care.

Listen, if the Rav makes a takana and yechidim decide they know better, to quote blazing saddles "luzem gayen"

What kinda junk is this. So now you're defending people who go against the Rabbi?

I'm done.

I stand b'aimah u'bepachad in front of my Rav. You guy's call me apikores when it suites you.

A Rav is a chain in mesora. You can't just pick and choose. When there was a dispute Rosh Hashanah 2 8-9 . When rabban gamliel told Rabbi yehoshua to show up on his Yom Kippur.

Listen, you remind me of the alte kakers here in Miami I knew in the 90's. They'd learn gemara on shabbas while smoking a cigarette


89
If they were prominent members then it is undermining the rabbi and that should not be tolerated.

A friend of mine who told me the story, has ,2 close family members on the left list.

It's something we discussed here in Miami, my close friend feels that anyone who violated the Rav's takenos should have their membership revoked.

One DDF member mentions tznius. I feel it's so much worse to go against the Rav in terms of Torah.

I can tell you that rabbanim are losing so much sleep. I don't even have enough words.

Don't ever let this sound like some gezeiras shmad. rabbanim are forced to handle the health aspect and the need for tefilla b'tzibur.


90
It has nothing to do with being extreme. It's about the fact that members of the shul one was a chazan, another taught daf yomi, went against the Rav's takana!

This is something I don't get, it's ok to go against the Rav when you feel you're a better mora l'dvar halacha?

Avos says "yehi mora rabba k'mora shamayim"

If anything, all this has brought out, is a krumkeit.

Rabbanim who won't listen to doctors

People who won't listen to rabbanim etc.


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