Author Topic: Mezuzah Fraud  (Read 11876 times)

Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 4404
  • Total likes: 147
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #210 on: January 07, 2019, 05:50:59 PM »
Plastic wrapping? They didn't use wax paper, or parchment paper? In any event, it is always recommended to tell the sofer (or merchant, if they're knowledgeable and experienced) where the Mezuzah will be placed, so that it's wrapped and placed in the most optimal way for the setting.
The Sofer I got my mezuzos from used plastic like saran wrap.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6143
  • Total likes: 1062
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #211 on: January 07, 2019, 06:04:07 PM »
Sorry for the language, the two posts below were posted on a WhatsApp group by a good friend who owns a Judaica store that caters mostly to not "frum" yidden.

Quote
גילוי נאות: אני מוכר מזוזות. אני מניח שאילו הצדיק משיקגו היה בודק מזוזות שאני מוכר הוא היה מגיע לאותן מסקנות עגומות. אבל רגע לפני שתצמידו אותי לעמוד הקלון ותסקלו אותי -בצדק- באבנים, הנה כמה עובדות:
א) רבים מהקונים של הסחורה הזאת הם למרבה הצער אנשים שהיו מסתפקים במזוזת נייר פסולה בחמש דולר. הסכום המקסימלי שהם מוכנים, לאחר שכנוע, לשלם על מזוזה, וגם אז הם יתלוננו, (כי אפשר אולי לברוח מהיהדות אבל קשה יותר לאבד כמה מהתכונות שמאפיינים את היהודים), על כמה זה יקר להיות יהודי, נע בסביבות ה-$40.
ב) בניגוד לצדיק הזה, שכוונותיו בעליל לשם שמים, ודעתו המלומדת נחרצת וחד משמעית, לא חסרים פוסקים ומגיהים שסבורים שמזוזות אלו כשרות, לא רק בדיעבד. אם כי אף אחד לא יטען שהן מהודרות.
מי שרוצה מזוזה מהודרת מוזמן לשלם עליה.
האם הצדיק הזה יהיה מוכן לעזור לשלוחים שחלקם הגדול לא מצליח לגמור את החודש לשלם את הפער שבין עלות מזוזה כזאת למזוזה מהודרת?
ג) הסוחרים ובעלי החנויות לרוב אינם אנשי מקצוע. הם סומכים על הספקים שלהם, סוחרים מהארץ שקונים ישירות מהסופרים, והם מעבירים את המזוזות הללו בדיקת מחשב והגהה שמעלה את מחיר המזוזה ומותירים רווח מינימלי בלבד, ובכך הם חשים שהם מורידים את האחריות מעל גבם.
ד) אם הרב הלר אכן חושב שהמזוזות הללו פסולות קטגורית ובאופן גורף, שיתכבד נא למלא את תפקידו, שהרי זה נמצא תחת אחריותו, ויוציא בבקשה קול קורא בעניין.
 ועם הפסק הזה נלך אנו לספקים שלנו, שילכו מצידם לרבנים בארץ, כולל בית הדין של הרב וואזנר המאשרים את כשרות המזוזות, ושיריבו ביניהם עד שיתלבנו הדברים.
ה) כל עוד זה לא קורה, המעשה הזה של פרסום הוידאו מבלי להזהיר מראש את בעלי החנויות, גובל בקנאות פסולה והיא פוגעת ישירות, לכאורה בניגוד מוחלט לשולחן ערוך, בכל בעלי העסקים שמופיעים שם.
ו) נראה שהנזק כבר נעשה, אולי באופן בלתי הפיך, של מעוות לא יוכל לתקן.
ז) טוב, את הסעיף הזה הוא החדיר עמוק. מקווה שהוא מרוצה עכשיו.

One of the group members, who happens to be an attorney, was pushing back, to which the response was:

Quote
אולי בעריכת דין הדברים הם ברורים; שחור ולבן, חייב או זכאי, בלי גווני ביניים. בחיים עצמם הדברים קצת יותר מורכבים. רצוי שאף אחד, גם לא חנויות יודאיקה, ימכרו מזוזות פסולות. ואם הם לא מסוגלים, שילמדו עריכת דין, שם היושר המקצועי הולך לפני המחנה.
השאלה היא מה עושה את המזוזה פסולה ומה מכשיר אותה. ובכך נחלקו הפוסקים. ויש גם מזוזה פסולה לכתחילה, וכשרה בדיעבד.
אותן מזוזות שוולף קובע בנחרצות שהן פסולות, הן כשרות בעיני רבים אחרים.
ובדיוק כמו שאדם, שליח בבית חב״ד נאמר, המחמיר עם עצמו, מקפיד על רמה מסוימת של כשרות, אבל מקל יותר על הציבור המגיע אליו, ולכן, למשל, בבית יקבע מזוזות עם כתב אדמה״ז, יאכל רק הרב לנדא, ידרוש ממשפחתו ללבוש רף מסוים, מוקפד, של צניעות, ובפסח לא יכנס אל ביתו, נגיד, שוקולד או מוצר מאכל כזה או אחר, אבל יחלק לציבור מצות כשרות אבל מהודרות פחות, כך גם בעניין המזוזות. אין חולק על כך שמזוזה שהיא פסולה לכתחילה אסור שתמכר. אבל בעלי החנויות בקינגסטון תובעים את וולף בבית הדין בטענה שאותן מזוזות כשרות הן.
 ורק כדי להמחיש קצת את מורכבות הדילמה. אמש אכלה בביתי אשה מוכת גורל, בת להורים חב״דיים. היא הגיעה עמוק בתוך הארוחה, ברכבת, עם ילדה הקטן. ובין היתר סיפרה, שבדירתה בניו ג׳רסי, לא היו מזוזות. הרב הקונסרווטיבי שהיא ובעלה החולה משתייכים לקהילתו, הציע לה לפנות לשליח חב״ד המקומי שקבע בשמחה מזוזות על מפתן ביתה ובשאר הדלתות. הסכום המירבי שהיא יכלה לשלם לו, בקושי, על המזוזות הסתכם ב$25. למזוזה. מה השליח הזה אמור היה לעשות? מגבית שכונתית לכתב אדמה״ז? הוא קנה מזוזות שעלו לו בסביבות $40 כל אחת. הן לא אמורות היו להיות מהודרות והוא לא התיימר להציג אותן ככאלה, ועשה את מה שבוודאי גרם לרבי נחת.
אחרי הארוחה, אגב, (ולאחר שהצענו לה להשאר ללון פה), היא שבה לביתה. יתכן שעל פי ההלכה, בנסיבות כאלה יהיה מי שיגיד לה: אל תבואי. אני לא נמנה עם אלה. ולא חסרים רבנים, ושלוחים, שיסכימו עם הדרך הזאת.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Luvisrael

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2016
  • Posts: 1519
  • Total likes: 74
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: לבי במזרח
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #212 on: January 07, 2019, 06:14:34 PM »
YES! That's exactly my point!

Commercialised Judaism and relying on agencies and organisations, "they say this is a good Hechsher" and "they say this Hechsher is no good" is a concept which started about 100 years ago as people were leaving the Shtetel life where they knew they're Rabbi and relied on what he said was good/kosher/Tahor/allowed.
About 100 years later it's become a business and enterprise and this is a huge WAKE UP CALL that people need to take responsibility for their Judaism.
Don't eat in a restaurant unless YOU make sure it's Kosher by relying on people YOU know and YOU trust. Same for Tefilin, Mezuzos and everything else!
/end rant
very well said

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7181
  • Total likes: 271
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #213 on: January 07, 2019, 06:55:57 PM »
Plastic wrapping? They didn't use wax paper, or parchment paper? In any event, it is always recommended to tell the sofer (or merchant, if they're knowledgeable and experienced) where the Mezuzah will be placed, so that it's wrapped and placed in the most optimal way for the setting.
Never seen wax paper. It's always been plastic Saran wrap. (Only time I've seen paper wraps was for tznius).

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1330
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #214 on: January 07, 2019, 08:57:52 PM »
Look I get the opposing logic of kosher bedieved for cheap mezuzot where someone may otherwise not have a mezuzah.

This trend seems to be the cause of upwards economic mobility. No reason a quality sofer working l'shem shamayim should make less.

Machon Stam $40 entry level mezuzot passed muster, it just means the rest of the players need to get their act together.

My father wholly supports Rabbi Wolf and as much as my father is a kanoi and oh boy is my father machmir, he generally would find such a video expose to be grub and lashon Hara.

In this case my father while not lauding the style and method, agrees it was necessary.

Also from what I'm hearing, Rav Heller advises machon Stam and so can't really comment on this.

But if you read machon Stam site

Quote
The Sofer
The most essential element of any written parchment is thesofer. In addition to his individual integrity —being G-d-fearing and conscientious — it is imperative that thesofer is tested thoroughly and receives ksav kabbalah— certification from a reliable Rabbinic authority, ensuring that he knows the many detailed and complex laws of STa”M. This is of utmost importance because a sofer who is not completely fluent in the halochos of safrus could innocently and unknowingly invalidate a mezuzah or tefillin without anyone’s, even his, knowledge. When purchasing an item from a sofer with a reliable Rabbinic certification, the consumer can rest assured that his or her STa”M conforms strictly to all the laws and details of Shulchan Aruch,and all the customs of the different ksavim.

The Ksav
Of equal significance to the sofer’s integrity is the quality of his writing. There are many halachos pertaining to the writing of STa”M — as explained at length in Shulchan Aruch(The Code of Jewish Law)1 — and it is essential that the sofer be skillful and accurate in his writing of the letters from a halachic standpoint. Aesthetically, a “beautiful ksav” is a hiddur mitzvah that is cherished by many.

As stated on our Welcome Page, our number one priority is examining the reputations and qualifications of prospective sofrim to find those who, in addition to being honest and G-d-fearing, have received ksav kabbalah — certification from noted Rabbonim — and have handwriting of superior quality. This ensures the highest level of kashrus of every mezuzah, pair of tefillin and sefer Torah sold through MachonStam.

After each mezuzah and tefillin scroll is computer checked, it is then carefully hand-examined to ensure that all the tagim(crowns on the letters) are intact and proper. It is of utmost importance to us that we do not compromise on our standards.As an example of this, according to halachah, the letter lamed is written with two tagim. Kabbalah explains that the tag on the right side corresponds to kindness, and the one on the left, to severity. Consequently, it is of utmost importance that the right tag be taller than the left one, ultimately drawing down kindness from Above over the individual. Our customers appreciate the fact that even on our least expensive STa”M, we don’t compromise on the tagei lamed.

Whether you are looking for ksav AriZal, Alter Rebbe, Beis Yosef,or Sefard, MachonStam insures that the quality of your STa”M will be of the highest quality, from the least to the most expensive items in each category
.



Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1330
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #215 on: January 07, 2019, 09:04:26 PM »
I get in trouble here for my misunderstood views. I respect and support those who work l'shem shamayim even when I don't agree with their views. I would however rather go without arba minim etc than buy from dishonest people.

There's plenty of talmudic,shulchan aruch and rishonim shu"t that support this.

Now, my father would much rather people not come to shull at all than come and talk.. or as we say, if it were up to my father, it would be impossible to get a minyan.. but I'm not extreme.. I just don't see how worship of God and observance of mitzvot negates human decency.

I hate to say this but I don't trust a sofer who talks during kadish or chazaras hashatz, if he can't be trusted to follow shulchan aruch here..

Offline Emkay

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 14357
  • Total likes: 344
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 35
    • View Profile
  • Location: Where I ought to be
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #216 on: January 07, 2019, 09:20:41 PM »


I would however rather go without __________ etc than buy from dishonest people.

Can you say the same about non religious paraphernalia? About every non necessity?

Offline churnbabychurn

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Jul 2012
  • Posts: 7181
  • Total likes: 271
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #217 on: January 07, 2019, 09:30:43 PM »



I hate to say this but I don't trust a sofer who talks during kadish or chazaras hashatz, if he can't be trusted to follow shulchan aruch here..

+1

Offline 12HRS

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 4785
  • Total likes: 289
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #218 on: January 07, 2019, 09:45:54 PM »
I hate to say this but I don't trust a sofer who talks during kadish or chazaras hashatz, if he can't be trusted to follow shulchan aruch here..

Can you not fathom that their יצר הרע is different then yours?

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1330
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #219 on: January 07, 2019, 10:00:18 PM »

Can you say the same about non religious paraphernalia? About every non necessity?

Yes, sure. But it's not related. Rav JB soloveitchik took on the shechita cartel in Boston and many rabanim simply did not eat meat, there were rabbanim who called on people not to buy matza for various reasons.

These mitzvos are fullfiled by taking a physical object and elevating it into spiritual realm and serving God.

How can you serve God when people are turning this into a for profit unholy scam?

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1330
  • Total likes: 110
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #220 on: January 07, 2019, 10:07:08 PM »
Can you not fathom that their יצר הרע is different then yours?

In "all for the boss" ruchama shain tells how her father one Shabbat saw the new talmud Torah teacher get an Aliyah and not look in Torah during kriah, he followed him out after to see him buy cigarettes and smoke on Shabbat

I don't hang up a mezuza because I follow the law blindly. I hang up a mezuza because God says so and I want to do God's commandment and be close to him..yes there are times where just kosher is good enough for me.

But how can you buy a mezuza etc which is supposed to be written by a yirei shamayim and the guy talks where shulchan aruch forbids.

Would you eat at a restaurant if the mashgiach goes to strip clubs (I know a few of these as does @ExGingi  I bet )

Offline MeirS

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jun 2013
  • Posts: 2344
  • Total likes: 75
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #221 on: January 07, 2019, 10:23:15 PM »
In "all for the boss" ruchama shain tells how her father one Shabbat saw the new talmud Torah teacher get an Aliyah and not look in Torah during kriah, he followed him out after to see him buy cigarettes and smoke on Shabbat

I don't hang up a mezuza because I follow the law blindly. I hang up a mezuza because God says so and I want to do God's commandment and be close to him..yes there are times where just kosher is good enough for me.

But how can you buy a mezuza etc which is supposed to be written by a yirei shamayim and the guy talks where shulchan aruch forbids.

Would you eat at a restaurant if the mashgiach goes to strip clubs (I know a few of these as does @ExGingi  I bet )
There was a Mashpia in Tomchei Temimim of old, his work in Yeshiva was his side job. Footing the day the was involved in business. During one particular Farbrengen he was directions his words to one particular student encouraging him to improve in a certain area.
After a short while, the Bochur couldn't handle it anymore and he called out "who are you to tell me where and what to improve! I myself saw you shaking hands with a woman!"
The Mashpia turns to him and tells him, "Listen here, in life, you'll meet a lot of people, each have מעלות and חסרונות, you can choose how to see things, either you can see all the good that people have which you can learn from and you'll end up in a good place, or you can see all the negative that people have which you can learn from and you'll end up in..."

Offline koplonko

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Aug 2014
  • Posts: 166
  • Total likes: 29
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: brooklyn
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #222 on: January 07, 2019, 10:26:23 PM »
in a certain city in europe there is an orthodox shul run by a rabbi who previously practiced as a reform rabbi in america.
unfortunately, he does conversions and weddings in his reform style.
when confronted; he replied: if we (orthodox) wont do it for them, they'll go to reform.
so he does reform work for them.

if we dont sell pasul mezuzas, they'll buy paper ones.

Offline Mendyweiss

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Monsey
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #223 on: January 07, 2019, 10:43:44 PM »
Look I get the opposing logic of kosher bedieved for cheap mezuzot where someone may otherwise not have a mezuzah.

This trend seems to be the cause of upwards economic mobility. No reason a quality sofer working l'shem shamayim should make less.

Machon Stam $40 entry level mezuzot passed muster, it just means the rest of the players need to get their act together.

My father wholly supports Rabbi Wolf and as much as my father is a kanoi and oh boy is my father machmir, he generally would find such a video expose to be grub and lashon Hara.

In this case my father while not lauding the style and method, agrees it was necessary.

Also from what I'm hearing, Rav Heller advises machon Stam and so can't really comment on this.

But if you read machon Stam site
.

Nice glad your father is pro this, perhaps he should also go a make a video about the disgusting things rabbi raskin says about the other sofrim. Maybe then you will see the truth how some sofrim all they care about is making their own name by putting down everyone else.

Offline Mendyweiss

  • DansDeals Copper Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Jan 2019
  • Posts: 2
  • Total likes: 1
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: Monsey
Re: Mezuzah Fraud
« Reply #224 on: January 07, 2019, 10:51:07 PM »
I appreciate that you created an account to respond only to my comments, it's great for my ego. Anyhow, you're making my point. Chalav stam is treif for us. Even though there are plenty of people who are matir it, it is treif for us. Same thing with these mezuzos. They are relying on obscure/not-relied-upon opinions to say it is kosher l'chatchila. But for a Lubavitcher, it is not acceptable. If he would have said, "would you use a non Alter Rebbe eruv to carry?" I would have had my answer.

Glad you are happy that I made the account took time to figure out how to use this forum