Author Topic: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise  (Read 851 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #30 on: January 06, 2019, 02:27:55 PM »
I can write a book on the research I did into the sunset issues.
THen you should.
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Offline Dan

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #31 on: January 06, 2019, 02:28:39 PM »
I am hereby resigning my post as mod.
Bing Bong
Wonderful good afternoon, lunchtime is well underway in the restaurant and the bistro. Enjoy your lovely lunch and I wish you a bon appetit. And for your reading pleasure:
https://www.chabad.org/kabbalah/article_cdo/aid/380178/jewish/The-Moon-Over-the-River.htm
Save your time, I don't answer PM. Post it in the forum and a dedicated DDF'er will get back to you as soon as possible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #32 on: January 06, 2019, 02:29:40 PM »
THen you should.
@dirah would do a far better job than me. A real zmanim expert and very knowledgeable of all of the dayos.
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Offline aygart

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #33 on: January 06, 2019, 03:04:40 PM »
@dirah would do a far better job than me. A real zmanim expert and very knowledgeable of all of the dayos.
It is an opportunity for you!
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Offline Dan

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #34 on: January 06, 2019, 03:48:35 PM »
Good point. Obviously t's by degrees and would change by location. My research was done for 11213.That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
For example, here are the zmanim for Port Lockroy, Antarctica, with Shkia (Haniris) and Shkia Amitis zmanim enabled:

https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-64.8251,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=Port%20Lockroy&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

We kept Shkia Haniris and Shkia Amitis L'chumra.

That's about as far south as made it.

Had we made it down to -65.12, we would have lost shkia amitis calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.12,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.12&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

At -65.87 we would have lost all shika calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.87,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.87&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja
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Offline MeirS

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #35 on: January 06, 2019, 04:06:40 PM »
For example, here are the zmanim for Port Lockroy, Antarctica, with Shkia (Haniris) and Shkia Amitis zmanim enabled:

https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-64.8251,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=Port%20Lockroy&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

We kept Shkia Haniris and Shkia Amitis L'chumra.

That's about as far south as made it.

Had we made it down to -65.12, we would have lost shkia amitis calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.12,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.12&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja

At -65.87 we would have lost all shika calculations:
https://www.chabad.org/calendar/zmanim_cdo/aid/143790/jewish/Zmanim-Halachic-Times.htm#additional=true&bdef=0&before=18&coords=-65.87,-63.4947&locationType=3&n=65.87&tdate=12/15/2018&tzname=America/Argentina/La_Rioja
It's interesting how in a location where there is הנץ הנראית but no הנץ האמיתי, Sof Zman Krias Shema Shel Shachris (AR default) is the same as תחילת זמן קריאת שמע של ערבית.

It's also interesting to note that in the 3rd location you posted, on Shabbos there is a sunrise (since the sun set the evening before) but no sunset (and no sunrise on Sunday).

Offline Dan

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #36 on: January 06, 2019, 04:15:30 PM »
It's interesting how in a location where there is הנץ הנראית but no הנץ האמיתי, Sof Zman Krias Shema Shel Shachris (AR default) is the same as תחילת זמן קריאת שמע של ערבית.

It's also interesting to note that in the 3rd location you posted, on Shabbos there is a sunrise (since the sun set the evening before) but no sunset (and no sunrise on Sunday).
Not all of the zmanim make sense. For example even if you held Rabbeinu Tam 72 minutes, you wouldn't actually wait until after Alos Sunday for Shabbos to be over.
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Offline jose34

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #37 on: January 06, 2019, 04:28:09 PM »
Lot's of us, me included are interested in reading up on this fascinating halachic discussion.

+100;

@Dan thanks for the bit on insight if someone can write up more on this it would be amazing.

Also I did not read through the whole thing but for further reading on this topic there an journal article by Rabbi David Bleich:
http://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2036/No.%203/Survey%20of%20Recent.pdf

Offline Naftali

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #38 on: January 06, 2019, 07:41:03 PM »
Lot's of us, me included are interested in reading up on this fascinating halachic discussion.


For English Articles:

(1)   See the aforementioned article by R’ JD Bleich published in Tradition (http://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2036/No.%203/Survey%20of%20Recent.pdf). See also the letter from Cyril Domb regarding R’ Goren opinion, and R’ Bleich’s response here: http://traditionarchive.org/news/originals/Volume%2037/No.%202/Communications.pdf
(2)   Here is the article that most easily shows up in the world of google scholarship: https://www.star-k.org/articles/kashrus-kurrents/515/when-does-one-pray-when-there-is-no-day/. For anyone interested, here is the more comprehsnive version that R’ Heber wrote in his Hebrew language Sefer: http://hebrewbooks.org/pdfpager.aspx?req=53000&st=&pgnum=107
(3)   Another more simple read: http://dinonline.org/2012/06/03/halacha-talk-the-exotic-traveler/
(4)   The following is not an orthodox source but quotes an array of sources, including the opinion of the Lubavitcher Rebbe. http://www.schechter.edu/a-responsum-regarding-space-travel/. He cited the Lubavitcher Rebbe in “Yagdil Torah, New York, 1981, No. 73.” I have not been able to locate this source.

Hebrew Articles and Resources:
(1)   R’ Boruch Simon source compilation on the topic: https://www.yutorah.org/download.cfm?materialID=517617 (this includes the article from R’ Kasher, Minchas Elazar, R’ Posen. Another compilation of Hebrew sources: http://beinenu.com/system/files/alonim/124_o.pdf?download=1 
(2)   R’ Taplin: תאריך ישראל עמוד תתמט (Can’t seem to find it online aside from Otzar Hachochma).


Between these sources, one will see addressed in regards to keeping shabbos:
(1) The preliminary question of whether the halakhic “day” requires a sunrise & sunset or a 24 hours (just about) period constitutes a day – this is largely based on proofs from Tanach, Gemaras, Midrashim (significantly a Pirkei D’Rav Elazar),
(2) Assuming a sunrise & sunset is required, is shabbos really every seven years!?!?,
(3) Assuming sunset & sunrise is not required to constitute a halakhic day (either on a d’orysa, or at least d’raban level [meaning, perhaps Shabbos on a d’orysa level is every seven years but to not “forget Shabbos” it should be kept on a rabbinic level every seven days – a similar, though not exact notion is noted when one is lost in a desert], what time does Shabbos begin or end:
(i) place where one left from [very ambiguous standard, what “place”],
(ii) lowest point of the sun is sunset, highest is sunrise (odd because lowest point is the sun’s general revolution (aka earth’s revolution) is chatzos, not sunset,
(iii) highest and lowest points of the sun are chatzos hayom and Layla, 12 hours in between each, six hours before highest point is sunrise, six hours later is sunset,
(iv) use the sunset/sunrise of the same longitude,
(v)  Just use Israel zmanim (Jerusalem?).

Note A: These times help for actual sunset (shkia); how to calculate tzeis, if there is a tzeis, may be harder. If ppl like using the somewhat arbitrary 60 (?), slightly less arbitrary 72 (or 90 !?!) this may get more complicated as to what makes sense.  If Tzeis is amount of degrees below the horizon, then it should be easy to figure out (relatively I guess) based on the sun’s descend from the mid-point from highest to lowest (after hour six) the generally assumed proper degrees.

Note B: These times are to figure out the halakhic day which relates most significantly to Shabbos. There are other questions (i.e. Krias Shema) which may require a separate analysis because these may require a halakhic “Layla/night” which would not exist when there is daylight all 24 hours (and vice versa in the winter) – see Rabbi Shternbuch in the quotes מועדים וזמנים who makes this salient point. Or perhaps because Shema is not a “night” based on mitzvah but a “sleeping/awaking” based on mitzah it will apply and be even less complicated than Shabbos question.

ותן לחכם ויחכם עוד.

Online yesitsme

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #39 on: January 06, 2019, 08:39:35 PM »
Could you please move it to zmanim thread, I get excited every time I see a new post only to find some zmanim talk ???. @Something Fishy pass it on to current mod thanks.

Offline aygart

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #40 on: January 06, 2019, 08:48:12 PM »
Could you please move it to zmanim thread, I get excited every time I see a new post only to find some zmanim talk ???. @Something Fishy pass it on to current mod thanks.

ANd here I see a post and get disappointed when it is something about penguins...
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Offline Blazer

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #41 on: January 06, 2019, 10:32:04 PM »

Offline dirah

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #42 on: January 06, 2019, 10:47:45 PM »
OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
I just sent Dan an essay which lays out most of the issues. I am just making a couple of brief comments here on some of the posts above:
Does that really only happen once a year all around the area near the pole, or does the sun make several passes skimming  below and above the horizon around the equinox in those areas away from the exact pole?
At the exact Poles, it happens once a year only.
For where we were going, the only shayla was for Lubavitchers.
The bulk of the issues only affected Lubavitchers. But the issue of the absence of Tzeis would have affected everyone.
Especially since the Rebbe is a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar.  ;)
It is true the Rebbe was a known "fan" of the Minchas Eluzar, but on this point, he clearly disagreed. See Igros Kodesh Volume 2 page 94, Toras Menachem 5746 Vol 2 page 847.
I've been a Zmanim enthusiast for many years now and was well aware of the שקיעה אמיתית concept but it seems like it's only recently that it's becoming mainstream to use it for calculating regular Zmanim such as סוף זמן קריאת שמע and פלג המנחה Lechumra.
It has become more mainstream ever since Chabad.org has adopted it as their default option. But it is not the consensus, and ppl should consult their Rav, or adopt the stringencies of both opinions (which is generally not such a big deal, as the difference is minor unless you are near the Poles).
That's an interesting one. Seems like most (although certainly not all) Chabad Rabonim go L'Chumra for both so they probably told you to keep Shabbos from Shkia Hanireis until Alos as well as by polar Zmanim if that's an option. (If that even makes sense. I'm not so well versed in polar Zmanim.)
But that would lead to problems where the two models are mutually exclusive. For example, Licht Bentchen would be close to midnight according to Standard Zmanim, but before 6pm true solar time according to the Ben Ish Chai’s Polar model. This leads to a conundrum: If you light before 6pm, this will be way too early if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Standard Zmanim. If you light shortly before midnight, this will be way too late if the Zmanim do in fact follow the Polar Zmanim model of the Ben Ish Chai.
Same shaala when traveling to HKG on the polar route and night doesn't fall, Summer, or the sun doesn't rise, winter, and you arrive two days later...
Indeed, transpolar flights are a major issue and many people don’t even realise. I am BEH working on an updated write-up about this.

Offline Dan

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #43 on: January 06, 2019, 10:51:32 PM »
OK, it looks like I have been officially pulled out of DDF retirement :)
We missed you!

In the good news department, it's been a long time since I was last served Cholov Stam or a Hamotzi roll on a flight  ;D
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Offline LoLo

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Re: Polar Zmanim On The Antarctic Cruise
« Reply #44 on: January 06, 2019, 10:53:01 PM »
Could you please move it to zmanim thread?
+1