Author Topic: Time Travel  (Read 10670 times)

Offline eyj

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #20 on: January 09, 2019, 01:02:51 AM »
To build your perfect life.

If you are changing the other timeline you are creating the perfect life for your alter self, not for you. You are in this timeline and are unchanged by what has ranspired in the alternate timeline.

If that alter self is considered you as well, you are only building the perfect life in one timeline. That is almost irrelevant in the context of millions of timelines you will never be able to fix- the time you almost crashed and suffered a disfiguring injury becomes a timeline where that did indeed happen etc.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 01:08:12 AM by eyj »

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #21 on: January 09, 2019, 01:38:05 AM »
If you are changing the other timeline you are creating the perfect life for your alter self, not for you. You are in this timeline and are unchanged by what has ranspired in the alternate timeline.

If that alter self is considered you as well, you are only building the perfect life in one timeline. That is almost irrelevant in the context of millions of timelines you will never be able to fix- the time you almost crashed and suffered a disfiguring injury becomes a timeline where that did indeed happen etc.
You become a new person in this timeline in which you can use your knowledge of the predicted outcome to make a solid choice. There can be another person that has the same dna as you in this timeline. And yes you won't be able to change any forfeited timelines but who cares.

Just to clarify. From your previous comment it seems like you're going with that there are an infinite amount of timelines, one for each point in time.

Maybe there's only one timeline as of now and if you travel back you'll create a second timeline. And maybe that timeline only exists from the point of creation if you go any further back you'll go back into the timeline you exited from and start a new timeline from whichever point of time you land on.
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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #22 on: January 09, 2019, 02:00:35 AM »
It’s much more complex than that. As the Rambam says, and the Tanya and others discuss  הוא המדע והוא היודע והוא הידוע
Hashem’s knowledge is itself the existence of all of creation; it is not separated in any way from Him. For anything to have an existence it must be his ידיעה that gives it its existence. He “knows” everything in existence simply by knowing Himself. He, and therefore his ידיעה transcend time. He created time but is not bound by time, therefore his ידיעה (“right now” from a human perspective) encompasses all points in time from the beginning of time until it’s very end, giving everything across all time it’s existence. To say that he doesn’t know at one point in time what is transpiring in another point in time is to to not understand His relationship to time. Since He necessarily “knows” what is taking place across all time, since that is what gives existence to all of creation across all time,  that knowledge creates the reality, seemingly leaving no room for any other possibilities. That is the problem.
I've seen this before. I was never able to understand it and how it answers the question.
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Offline eyj

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #23 on: January 09, 2019, 07:05:12 AM »
You become a new person in this timeline in which you can use your knowledge of the predicted outcome to make a solid choice. There can be another person that has the same dna as you in this timeline. And yes you won't be able to change any forfeited timelines but who cares.

Just to clarify. From your previous comment it seems like you're going with that there are an infinite amount of timelines, one for each point in time.

Maybe there's only one timeline as of now and if you travel back you'll create a second timeline. And maybe that timeline only exists from the point of creation if you go any further back you'll go back into the timeline you exited from and start a new timeline from whichever point of time you land on.


Why would timelines only be created for you going back in time unless you are writing a cute fiction plot in which case anything goes? Logically-if this conversation can be called something akin to logical- if the possibility of parallel timelines exist they should be constantly created. It is unreasonable to suggest that they only exist when you go back in time...

Offline good sam

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #24 on: January 09, 2019, 07:10:05 AM »
I've seen this before. I was never able to understand it and how it answers the question.
It doesn't
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Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #25 on: January 09, 2019, 07:37:18 AM »
Sure they have.
I thought for sure a mod was going to edit that post to freak him out

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #26 on: January 09, 2019, 08:59:06 AM »
And this answer is satisfactory to you?
Not this answer alone, but it's the basis for a satisfactory understanding on my part. This isn't the type of question you can just answer, but you can give someone the perspective to understand it on their own. I wouldn't say every aspect of the question is answered, but it's a start.
Memories last forever, make them while you can.

Offline good sam

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #27 on: January 09, 2019, 09:13:55 AM »
Not this answer alone, but it's the basis for a satisfactory understanding on my part. This isn't the type of question you can just answer, but you can give someone the perspective to understand it on their own. I wouldn't say every aspect of the question is answered, but it's a start.
It exacerbates the problem. Seeing the future is one thing, but that the future is already occurring simultaneous with the present makes free will infinitely more difficult to understand.

The greatest philosophers, Jewish and non-Jewish, have struggled with this problem. I was surprised to hear that you had it all figured out.
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Offline Emkay

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #28 on: January 09, 2019, 09:40:18 AM »
Not traveling back in time. No one from the future has done it.
How do you know?

Offline eyj

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #29 on: January 09, 2019, 09:48:12 AM »
I've seen this before. I was never able to understand it and how it answers the question.

It doesn’t answer the question because it is not meant to. To the contrary, it is  meant to explain why the easy answer of comparing it to watching a video of something etc. doesn’t really work when it comes to the ידיעה of Hashem. Therefore we must go back to the limitations of human understanding....

Offline ADG

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2019, 09:48:48 AM »
Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a child? It would save millions of lives of those who perished in the holocaust, but would simultaneously eliminate millions of people alive today whose parents would never have met, likely including you. Of course if you don’t exist you could never have travelled back in time to kill Hitler....

Everything is Hashgacha pratis (divine providence) even the most horrific pasts of our ancestors.

Offline eyj

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2019, 10:24:57 AM »
Everything is Hashgacha pratis (divine providence) even the most horrific pasts of our ancestors.

Of course it is, and Hashem for reasons known only to Him guided the course of events so that those who perished in the holocaust did, and as a result those who were born and are here today exist, but if you could go back in time that would mean Hashem is giving you the ability to prevent the Holocaust which would also be considered within His hashgacha pratis. So then the question becomes are you דוחה נפש מפני נפש which is generally not allowed,  or is this situation different since the lives of the millions of people alive today are directly an outgrowth of the deaths of the victims of the holocaust? Assuming you are therefore halachicly  free to choose either, which would you choose?

Offline ADG

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2019, 10:38:28 AM »
Of course it is, and Hashem for reasons known only to Him guided the course of events so that those who perished in the holocaust did, and as a result those who were born and are here today exist, but if you could go back in time that would mean Hashem is giving you the ability to prevent the Holocaust which would also be considered within His hashgacha pratis. So then the question becomes are you דוחה נפש מפני נפש which is generally not allowed,  or is this situation different since the lives of the millions of people alive today are directly an outgrowth of the deaths of the victims of the holocaust? Assuming you are therefore halachicly  free to choose either, which would you choose?

I find it belittling and inappropriate to apply Halacha to a si-fi scenario which could never be (not to mention we are talking about one of the most complicated halachic concepts which have such in-depth nuances that change the halacha). It goes without saying, and against every instinct of every normal person, that if you hypothetically meet a "hitler" yimach shmo v'zichro you kill him. Altering the future is not part of that discussion because the future hasnt happened by definition.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:56:17 AM by ADG »

Offline eyj

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2019, 11:03:50 AM »
I find it belittling and inappropriate to apply Halacha to a si-fi scenario which could never be (not to mention we are talking about one of the most complicated halachic concepts which have such in-depth nuances that change the halacha). It goes without saying, and against every instinct of every normal person, that if you hypothetically meet a "hitler" yimach shmo v'zichro you kill him. Altering the future is not part of that discussion because the future hasnt happened by definition.

Look at many בעי ר׳ ירמיה throughout shas. Many are impossible scenarios but if they bring out a facet in halacha they are certainly not belittling.

If I am contemplating going back to the past the present and the millions of people living within it are very real as I make my decision to go or not to go back...

Offline cmey

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2019, 11:11:02 AM »
It's what bothers me about bechira chofshis.. if you have free will yet goes knows the future... How is it free will

It may sound trite but it is so very true:

The colors on a canvas were debating the nature of the artist who painted them.
“I’ll bet he is glossy” said one.
“He probably brings out shadowing effects nicely” said another.
“I’ll bet he dries to a smooth finish” said a third.


Their attempts to analyse the artist are obviously laughably absurd, since they are lacking a frame of reference outside of their own narrow understanding of their own nature.

Assuming we can understand Hashem using our limited frames of reference is no different.

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2019, 11:21:05 AM »
Unless when you go back you go into a different timeline that's independent of this one.
What does this even mean? That there are multiple parallel paradigms of existence happening simultaneously?
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Offline zh cohen

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2019, 11:39:47 AM »
What does this even mean? That there are multiple parallel paradigms of existence happening simultaneously?

FWIU, this idea of infinite universes, is a theory that mathematitions came up with to deal with the mathematical impossibly of evolution.

Offline Redbull3

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2019, 11:49:35 AM »
Everything is Hashgacha pratis (divine providence) even the most horrific pasts of our ancestors.
Either nothing is hashgacha pratis, everything is, or something in the middle. CMIIW but no source earlier than the bal shem tov holds such an extreme position as "everything". To each their own, but it's totally counter intuitive to me and doesn't sit well with me at all.

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2019, 11:57:42 AM »
Either nothing is hashgacha pratis, everything is, or something in the middle. CMIIW but no source earlier than the bal shem tov holds such an extreme position as "everything". To each their own, but it's totally counter intuitive to me and doesn't sit well with me at all.
yet none of those previous opinions held that events that affected ישראל, even individuals, how much more so the entire nation, is not השגחה, so your discomfort with שיטת הבעש"ט is a red herring in this part of the discussion

Offline good sam

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Re: Time Travel
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2019, 12:01:33 PM »


Look at many בעי ר׳ ירמיה throughout shas.
You must be chabad
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