Author Topic: Time Travel  (Read 2390 times)

Offline ADG

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 1435
  • Total likes: 65
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: BK
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #30 on: January 09, 2019, 09:48:48 AM »
Would you go back in time and kill Hitler as a child? It would save millions of lives of those who perished in the holocaust, but would simultaneously eliminate millions of people alive today whose parents would never have met, likely including you. Of course if you don’t exist you could never have travelled back in time to kill Hitler....

Everything is Hashgacha pratis (divine providence) even the most horrific pasts of our ancestors.

Offline eyj

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 28
  • Total likes: 31
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #31 on: January 09, 2019, 10:24:57 AM »
Everything is Hashgacha pratis (divine providence) even the most horrific pasts of our ancestors.

Of course it is, and Hashem for reasons known only to Him guided the course of events so that those who perished in the holocaust did, and as a result those who were born and are here today exist, but if you could go back in time that would mean Hashem is giving you the ability to prevent the Holocaust which would also be considered within His hashgacha pratis. So then the question becomes are you דוחה נפש מפני נפש which is generally not allowed,  or is this situation different since the lives of the millions of people alive today are directly an outgrowth of the deaths of the victims of the holocaust? Assuming you are therefore halachicly  free to choose either, which would you choose?

Offline ADG

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Apr 2015
  • Posts: 1435
  • Total likes: 65
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: BK
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #32 on: January 09, 2019, 10:38:28 AM »
Of course it is, and Hashem for reasons known only to Him guided the course of events so that those who perished in the holocaust did, and as a result those who were born and are here today exist, but if you could go back in time that would mean Hashem is giving you the ability to prevent the Holocaust which would also be considered within His hashgacha pratis. So then the question becomes are you דוחה נפש מפני נפש which is generally not allowed,  or is this situation different since the lives of the millions of people alive today are directly an outgrowth of the deaths of the victims of the holocaust? Assuming you are therefore halachicly  free to choose either, which would you choose?

I find it belittling and inappropriate to apply Halacha to a si-fi scenario which could never be (not to mention we are talking about one of the most complicated halachic concepts which have such in-depth nuances that change the halacha). It goes without saying, and against every instinct of every normal person, that if you hypothetically meet a "hitler" yimach shmo v'zichro you kill him. Altering the future is not part of that discussion because the future hasnt happened by definition.
« Last Edit: January 09, 2019, 10:56:17 AM by ADG »

Offline eyj

  • Dansdeals Bronze Elite
  • *
  • Join Date: Nov 2017
  • Posts: 28
  • Total likes: 31
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #33 on: January 09, 2019, 11:03:50 AM »
I find it belittling and inappropriate to apply Halacha to a si-fi scenario which could never be (not to mention we are talking about one of the most complicated halachic concepts which have such in-depth nuances that change the halacha). It goes without saying, and against every instinct of every normal person, that if you hypothetically meet a "hitler" yimach shmo v'zichro you kill him. Altering the future is not part of that discussion because the future hasnt happened by definition.

Look at many בעי ר׳ ירמיה throughout shas. Many are impossible scenarios but if they bring out a facet in halacha they are certainly not belittling.

If I am contemplating going back to the past the present and the millions of people living within it are very real as I make my decision to go or not to go back...

Offline cmey

  • Dansdeals Gold Elite
  • ***
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 173
  • Total likes: 86
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: lakewood
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #34 on: January 09, 2019, 11:11:02 AM »
It's what bothers me about bechira chofshis.. if you have free will yet goes knows the future... How is it free will

It may sound trite but it is so very true:

The colors on a canvas were debating the nature of the artist who painted them.
“I’ll bet he is glossy” said one.
“He probably brings out shadowing effects nicely” said another.
“I’ll bet he dries to a smooth finish” said a third.


Their attempts to analyse the artist are obviously laughably absurd, since they are lacking a frame of reference outside of their own narrow understanding of their own nature.

Assuming we can understand Hashem using our limited frames of reference is no different.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6771
  • Total likes: 1502
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #35 on: January 09, 2019, 11:21:05 AM »
Unless when you go back you go into a different timeline that's independent of this one.
What does this even mean? That there are multiple parallel paradigms of existence happening simultaneously?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline zh cohen

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite + Lifetime Silver Elite
  • *****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 518
  • Total likes: 98
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: Brooklyn
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #36 on: January 09, 2019, 11:39:47 AM »
What does this even mean? That there are multiple parallel paradigms of existence happening simultaneously?

FWIU, this idea of infinite universes, is a theory that mathematitions came up with to deal with the mathematical impossibly of evolution.

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3183
  • Total likes: 77
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #37 on: January 09, 2019, 11:49:35 AM »
Everything is Hashgacha pratis (divine providence) even the most horrific pasts of our ancestors.
Either nothing is hashgacha pratis, everything is, or something in the middle. CMIIW but no source earlier than the bal shem tov holds such an extreme position as "everything". To each their own, but it's totally counter intuitive to me and doesn't sit well with me at all.

Offline gozalim

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Oct 2008
  • Posts: 3030
  • Total likes: 32
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #38 on: January 09, 2019, 11:57:42 AM »
Either nothing is hashgacha pratis, everything is, or something in the middle. CMIIW but no source earlier than the bal shem tov holds such an extreme position as "everything". To each their own, but it's totally counter intuitive to me and doesn't sit well with me at all.
yet none of those previous opinions held that events that affected ישראל, even individuals, how much more so the entire nation, is not השגחה, so your discomfort with שיטת הבעש"ט is a red herring in this part of the discussion

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2567
  • Total likes: 172
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #39 on: January 09, 2019, 12:01:33 PM »


Look at many בעי ר׳ ירמיה throughout shas.
You must be chabad
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2567
  • Total likes: 172
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #40 on: January 09, 2019, 12:03:25 PM »
What does this even mean? That there are multiple parallel paradigms of existence happening simultaneously?
You gotta watch High Castle
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline Luvtotravel

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2012
  • Posts: 2589
  • Total likes: 40
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Ny
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #41 on: January 09, 2019, 12:04:20 PM »
Don't wait for the perfect moment; take the moment and make it perfect.

Offline Redbull3

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Dec 2011
  • Posts: 3183
  • Total likes: 77
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #42 on: January 09, 2019, 12:13:43 PM »
yet none of those previous opinions held that events that affected ישראל, even individuals, how much more so the entire nation, is not השגחה, so your discomfort with שיטת הבעש"ט is a red herring in this part of the discussion
I agree that God intervenes to ensure the destiny of the larger jewish people, and thus it's unlikely any of us would be able to succeed in overriding the holocaust even if we thought we had the means to try, because it was probably a significant event (although I don't think any of us or anyone alive today is qualified to say this for certain, emotion aside).
But he said everything is hashgacha pratis, and it's not a red herring or even creating too much of a tangent to take umbrage with that word.

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 6771
  • Total likes: 1502
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #43 on: January 09, 2019, 12:51:29 PM »
You gotta watch High Castle
I had a feeling it was a concept from fiction.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2567
  • Total likes: 172
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Time Travel
« Reply #44 on: January 09, 2019, 01:03:29 PM »
I had a feeling it was a concept from fiction.
Not exclusively.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Multiverse
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD