Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 2657 times)

Offline Denverite

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Cheating Attitude?
« on: March 04, 2019, 12:08:55 AM »
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 09:27:37 PM by Dan »

Offline YesThatsMe

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #1 on: March 04, 2019, 12:21:55 AM »
@Victim 2008 your inbox is full.

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #2 on: March 04, 2019, 12:25:58 AM »
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.

No comment on the above but I will say that there is virtually no one on these forums that uses credit cards exactly the way the banks intend them to to be used. Not me. Not Dan. Not anyone. If you think otherwise you havenít been on these forums long enough. Whether thereís any problem with using credit cards in a legal but unintended way is a different discussion for a different thread...

Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #3 on: March 04, 2019, 12:59:11 AM »
No comment on the above but I will say that there is virtually no one on these forums that uses credit cards exactly the way the banks intend them to to be used. Not me. Not Dan. Not anyone. If you think otherwise you havenít been on these forums long enough. Whether thereís any problem with using credit cards in a legal but unintended way is a different discussion for a different thread...

I disagree and believe you are actually proving my point. Is even one of these high dollar loss victims/lenders not selling points? Would peopleís yetzer haraís ever convince them to do such an idiotic thing (and Iím not saying that meanly but factually because right now along with their anger, these victims are kicking themselves for being so stupid) if not for the temptation of the ill-gotten money from selling points? When you sell points you are taking the step down a wrong path that most people donít escalate. Others have noted here that when you are getting ďfreeĒ money, no matter what the source, itís hard though for many to stop doing it. Iím just taking it a step further calling out the acceptance of the clearly shady and selective practice of selling points or other shady actions and that if our culture, condones all sorts of bad behavior simply because Halacha doesnít forbid it, we are just inviting ourselves to keep experiencing these same painful things.

Offline Mordyk

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #4 on: March 04, 2019, 01:02:28 AM »
I just got info on a hiemishe optical store in willi that was a swiping farm ( is that a good terminology?) That went bust.
Swiping farm or swiping for actual merchandise?  And are they also bankrupt and stopped paying?

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #5 on: March 04, 2019, 01:07:26 AM »
I disagree and believe you are actually proving my point. Is even one of these high dollar loss victims/lenders not selling points? Would peopleís yetzer haraís ever convince them to do such an idiotic thing (and Iím not saying that meanly but factually because right now along with their anger, these victims are kicking themselves for being so stupid) if not for the temptation of the ill-gotten money from selling points? When you sell points you are taking the step down a wrong path that most people donít escalate. Others have noted here that when you are getting ďfreeĒ money, no matter what the source, itís hard though for many to stop doing it. Iím just taking it a step further calling out the acceptance of the clearly shady and selective practice of selling points or other shady actions and that if our culture, condones all sorts of bad behavior simply because Halacha doesnít forbid it, we are just inviting ourselves to keep experiencing these same painful things.
Why are you so convinced that selling points is so shady or that much of a problem? I'm just curious.
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Offline cmey

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #6 on: March 04, 2019, 01:36:59 AM »
I disagree and believe you are actually proving my point. Is even one of these high dollar loss victims/lenders not selling points? Would peopleís yetzer haraís ever convince them to do such an idiotic thing (and Iím not saying that meanly but factually because right now along with their anger, these victims are kicking themselves for being so stupid) if not for the temptation of the ill-gotten money from selling points? When you sell points you are taking the step down a wrong path that most people donít escalate. Others have noted here that when you are getting ďfreeĒ money, no matter what the source, itís hard though for many to stop doing it. Iím just taking it a step further calling out the acceptance of the clearly shady and selective practice of selling points or other shady actions and that if our culture, condones all sorts of bad behavior simply because Halacha doesnít forbid it, we are just inviting ourselves to keep experiencing these same painful things.

More likely desperation coupled with lack of financial literacy is to blame  (in most cases) rather than tasting forbidden fruits.

Offline PSA2

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #7 on: March 04, 2019, 06:30:49 AM »
Swiping farm or swiping for actual merchandise?  And are they also bankrupt and stopped paying?
Swiping farm. No merchandise. And they stopped paying.

Offline yuneeq

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #8 on: March 04, 2019, 07:37:33 AM »
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.

Do you not notice the irony of criticizing and defaming people that legally sell points in the same post where you mention how the big of a problem it is to say loshon hara?
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Offline EJB

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #9 on: March 04, 2019, 07:38:11 AM »
How long before Dan is told to hand over user name identifying info?

Offline zale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #10 on: March 04, 2019, 07:45:59 AM »
Guys, I have a sincere question and if Iím offbase please feel free to (nicely) tell me. Iíve read through probably 30 pages of this thread in the last couple days and Iím still having trouble wrapping my mind around all of this. Those people/transactions of the final months seem to totally be scams where these guys were clearly defrauding victims as they knew their businesses were heading south. The earlier transactions, however, seem to be totally mutually agreed upon transactions where the lender was happy to do so because of the money they made on the points. Everyone clearly knows that the banks donít intend for credit cards to be used this way (and that you arenít supposed to sell points).

My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor, in addition to the obvious greed, in this clearly inappropriate behavior? Iíve seen people often post on DDF about how cheating non-Jews is permitted in Halacha, without any regard to whether itís something that is just Stam not good for them to do. Heck, this attitude is so pervasive in the Hareidi world (donít worry, I know that the MO world has other huge problems too) that my own kids try to tell me they can badmouth a non-Jew because itís not Lashon Hara! At which point I nicely explain to them that it affects their neshama to speak like that and mine to hear it.

Again, feel free to express if you think Iím off base here but I just feel like this is the elephant in the room here. Dan always makes very clear that not only wouldnít he do some swiping scheme to get points but he wonít even sell any points!  I donít see how you address one part without honestly addressing the other.

No.

I am willing to bet that many of the victims did NOT know that itís against the t&c and are only finding this out now. If anything, the merchants used their Jewish/Chassidic background to lure unsuspecting Jewish/Chassidic victims into the scheme. Itís called affinity fraud and has been discussed in this thread.

Offline zale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #11 on: March 04, 2019, 07:48:20 AM »
How long before Dan is told to hand over user name identifying info?

That would be a first amendment violation. They can only ask for that if someone made a direct threat or wrote something that indicates that they committed a crime.


Offline AJK

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #12 on: March 04, 2019, 08:13:25 AM »
That would be a first amendment violation. They can only ask for that if someone made a direct threat or wrote something that indicates that they committed a crime.
Lol, no.
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Offline EJB

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #13 on: March 04, 2019, 08:18:41 AM »
Lol, no.

I hope he isn't the defense attorney :)

Offline zale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #14 on: March 04, 2019, 08:19:02 AM »
Lol, no.

OK, do you believe that a warrant will be needed?