Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 4097 times)

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #105 on: March 04, 2019, 09:34:19 PM »

all stories upthread that also non-jews avoid taxes, proves nothing, as they happened with jews.  ;)

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #106 on: March 04, 2019, 09:39:54 PM »
@Denverite wrote that even if it is permitted is should be frowned upon and is the wrong thing to do. That seems exactly in line with what I wrote.
Does a mi shepara apply by a goy?
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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #107 on: March 04, 2019, 09:51:04 PM »
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
חיים מאשקאוויטש שרייבט אידיש?

Offline JACKBLUE

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #108 on: March 04, 2019, 10:02:26 PM »

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #109 on: March 04, 2019, 10:07:50 PM »
חיים מאשקאוויטש שרייבט אידיש?
ניין. אבער ער לייענט מיט׳ן הילף פון גוגל הדור.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #110 on: March 04, 2019, 10:24:54 PM »
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.
I don't think I was clear enough. I know you didn't mean to denigrate. You probably didn't mean to stereotype frum Jews either.

But imagine if Dan had founded Skiplagged. We can be pretty certain there would be no fawning reddit threads, but anti Semitic comments about thieving Jews.

While most of us don't have that kind of blatant bigotry, we ALL have prejudicial tendencies which cloud our judgement, albeit in a much more "eidel" way than those anti-semites.

These stories are happening across the spectrum of the frum world. From Crown Heights to Lakewood, Monsey to the 5 Towns and everywhere in between. My point is that to think that there is some kind of universal negative attitude that caused them is likely based on a hint of stereotyping than anything else.

If your takeaway is not to buy hotel certs, more power to you. If the takeaway is to always behave in a way that creates a kiddush Hashem and not ch"v the opposite, we're all in agreement. However if the takeaway is that these scams were born of some sort of communal "scam the goy" attitude, sorry, that's just wrong.
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Offline good sam

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #111 on: March 04, 2019, 10:49:21 PM »


You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

The idea of an "efficient breach" being morally acceptable is questionable at best. It's a new-age theory of law that takes a macro efficiency approach.

There are many problems with the theory:

1. In practice, the theory is wrong because it doesn't account for legal fees. The defendant will never be made whole.

2. There are cases where the efficiency itself derives from problem #1. A party might breach because it knows that it would be inefficient for the offended party to sue.

3. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party breaches because it thinks the offended party won't learn of the breach.

4. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party enters into the contract with intention to breach.

5. The theory doesn't account for the break-down in the moral fabric of a society resulting from people's inability to trust one another even with the presence of a binding contract.

6. The theory doesn't account for the emotional harm experienced by a party who has had his trust betrayed.

7. The theory is incompatible with the ideal of דובר אמת בלבבו.

So you as well make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate lawfulness with morality, and therefor fail to offer a complete treatment of the OP's dilemma.

In short, one can remain a "very lawful" person if they decide to breach a contract, but not a very "lovely and great" one.
If you don't care why would you comment?
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Offline Saver2000

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #112 on: March 04, 2019, 11:27:13 PM »
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?
Lol. Obviously not. He's trying to avoid declaring the income, so as not to pay income tax. If he pays sales tax on it, he'll need pay income tax on it as well.

Offline Dan

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #113 on: March 04, 2019, 11:28:18 PM »
Lol. Obviously not. He's trying to avoid declaring the income, so as not to pay income tax. If he pays sales tax on it, he'll need pay income tax on it as well.
My point exactly
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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #114 on: March 05, 2019, 12:53:07 AM »
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
There's no problem of lying? I'm sure the contract says something along the lines of "you agree not to sell any points..."

Even if it says afterwards that "if you do your account will get shut". The first part is still a separate thing.

Assuming you plan to sell points when you sign up.
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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #115 on: March 05, 2019, 01:56:31 AM »
There's no problem of lying? I'm sure the contract says something along the lines of "you agree not to sell any points..."

Even if it says afterwards that "if you do your account will get shut". The first part is still a separate thing.

Assuming you plan to sell points when you sign up.
I was talking about halachically. Then again, ianar and I could be wrong about that.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #116 on: March 05, 2019, 01:58:15 AM »
I was talking about halachically.
Me too
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"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #118 on: March 05, 2019, 03:47:48 AM »
ניין. אבער ער פלעגט לייענען מיט׳ן הילף פון גוגל הדור.

פדפי
« Last Edit: March 05, 2019, 03:51:37 AM by User6669 »
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Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #119 on: March 05, 2019, 07:49:23 AM »
I was talking about halachically. Then again, ianar and I could be wrong about that.
Which is somewhat of a separate conversation from @Denverite . SHe was discussing how regardless of mi shepara it is still not the right thing to do.
Does a mi shepara apply by a goy?
Not sure.
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