Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 5409 times)

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10031
  • Total likes: 3772
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #120 on: March 05, 2019, 07:51:16 AM »

The idea of an "efficient breach" being morally acceptable is questionable at best. It's a new-age theory of law that takes a macro efficiency approach.

There are many problems with the theory:

1. In practice, the theory is wrong because it doesn't account for legal fees. The defendant will never be made whole.

2. There are cases where the efficiency itself derives from problem #1. A party might breach because it knows that it would be inefficient for the offended party to sue.

3. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party breaches because it thinks the offended party won't learn of the breach.

4. The theory doesn't account for cases (including the instant one) where a party enters into the contract with intention to breach.

5. The theory doesn't account for the break-down in the moral fabric of a society resulting from people's inability to trust one another even with the presence of a binding contract.

6. The theory doesn't account for the emotional harm experienced by a party who has had his trust betrayed.

7. The theory is incompatible with the ideal of דובר אמת בלבבו.

So you as well make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate lawfulness with morality, and therefor fail to offer a complete treatment of the OP's dilemma.

In short, one can remain a "very lawful" person if they decide to breach a contract, but not a very "lovely and great" one.
Most of this (possibly including the issues of michusrei amana as well) is addressed by this.

Are you familiar with the term Contract of Adhesion?

Are you aware that Airline’s Contract of Carriage is such a contract, yet it obligates the airlines to virtually nothing?

There’s no reason to feel bad for the airlines. They have a system that they abuse to their benefit, and when you beat them at their own game, there’s nothing wrong with that. At least that’s what courts have ruled when airlines tried to sue for extra airfare.

The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline good sam

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Jun 2011
  • Posts: 2991
  • Total likes: 328
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 10
    • View Profile
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #121 on: March 05, 2019, 08:01:45 AM »


Most of this (possibly including the issues of michusrei amana as well) is addressed by this.

Not really. I see in @exgingi's post a moral argument and a legal argument but neither applies to selling points.
If you don't care why would you comment?
HT: DMYD

Offline Dawie

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2015
  • Posts: 1096
  • Total likes: 115
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
  • Gender: Male
    • View Profile
  • Location: KBLM
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #122 on: March 05, 2019, 12:03:01 PM »
In case you haven't heard this story and it's not linked in any other thread
i think this thread needs some positive news
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-amazon-angel-yehuda-from-lakewood.html


Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 2005
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #123 on: March 05, 2019, 01:47:58 PM »
In case you haven't heard this story and it's not linked in any other thread
i think this thread needs some positive news
http://hefkervelt.blogspot.com/2019/03/the-amazon-angel-yehuda-from-lakewood.html

Thank you, very nice story!

Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 2005
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #124 on: March 05, 2019, 01:49:28 PM »
Most of this (possibly including the issues of michusrei amana as well) is addressed by this.


Can you translate bolded to English (or as close as possible)...yo no entiendo.  :)

Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 2005
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #125 on: March 05, 2019, 02:00:41 PM »
I don't think I was clear enough. I know you didn't mean to denigrate. You probably didn't mean to stereotype frum Jews either.

But imagine if Dan had founded Skiplagged. We can be pretty certain there would be no fawning reddit threads, but anti Semitic comments about thieving Jews.

While most of us don't have that kind of blatant bigotry, we ALL have prejudicial tendencies which cloud our judgement, albeit in a much more "eidel" way than those anti-semites.

These stories are happening across the spectrum of the frum world. From Crown Heights to Lakewood, Monsey to the 5 Towns and everywhere in between. My point is that to think that there is some kind of universal negative attitude that caused them is likely based on a hint of stereotyping than anything else.

If your takeaway is not to buy hotel certs, more power to you. If the takeaway is to always behave in a way that creates a kiddush Hashem and not ch"v the opposite, we're all in agreement.
However if the takeaway is that these scams were born of some sort of communal "scam the goy" attitude, sorry, that's just wrong.

The bolded segment is a powerful example you gave and I probably did accidentally engage in that type of prejudice.

As far as the italicized I don't mean to say these scams were born of this type of attitude but I do wonder if they contribute to the general public shrug to them.

Putting aside points sellers, swiping victims, etc. and just focusing on some of the most egregious things that I think the vast majority of us would like to see stop, I'm truly trying to understand how a Yeshiva and very frum publications (who I know ask Shailas) could possibly allow advertisements for credit card farms or in the case of a school, actually do it themselves?  At best it's clear intent to breach a contract at worst maybe fraud or identity theft. If halacha tells us to follow secular law then are they saying it's not illegal and justifying it?

I truly can't wrap my mind around it and would love for someone to explain.


Offline avromie7

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Feb 2014
  • Posts: 5309
  • Total likes: 515
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 6
    • View Profile
  • Location: Lakewood
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #126 on: March 05, 2019, 02:29:54 PM »
Can you translate bolded to English (or as close as possible)...yo no entiendo.  :)
michusrei = lacking
amana = trust
AKA not trustworthy / dishonest
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Online aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime 10K Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 10031
  • Total likes: 3772
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #127 on: March 05, 2019, 06:15:33 PM »
Can you translate bolded to English (or as close as possible)...yo no entiendo.  :)
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
The thing with the hamster is that running on the wheel is actually what it is trying to do.

Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 2005
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #128 on: March 05, 2019, 06:42:08 PM »

You are right, I missed that and googled Mi Shepara and think I figured that out.  I know Modern Hebrew but I don't want to mistranslate if the Torah usage is different.

Since you seem to have a deep grasp of these halachic issues, can you address what I asked about how it's halachically permissible for publications to allow advertisements for credit card farms or a yeshiva to open cards in exchange for a tuition discount.  Part of my total discomfort with so many things people are doing with credit cards and points it because it has led us to things like openly farming credit cards.

Offline chevron

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 1952
  • Total likes: 252
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 2
    • View Profile
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #129 on: March 05, 2019, 07:14:51 PM »
How often do you hear "I'm sorry, we cant afford that" it's an entitlement society which somehow spending within your means is shameful?


Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 2005
  • Total likes: 168
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Re: Cheating Attitude?
« Reply #130 on: March 05, 2019, 07:41:09 PM »
How often do you hear "I'm sorry, we cant afford that" it's an entitlement society which somehow spending within your means is shameful?

Actually in Denver, I hear it a lot.  It was part of the reason I wanted to raise my kids here instead of LA because I sure didn't hear it there.  People work together to create a nice bris, with stuff from Costco.  Even among very wealthy people its not common to go on crazy Pesach vacations or throw over the top simchas.  It's one of the biggest benefits of living here...