Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 5312 times)

Offline elimmm

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #30 on: March 04, 2019, 10:40:07 AM »
@Dan
Please remove @Denverite's post. Many of the points there are off mark and it will probably be quoted in an article that will be published soon, IMHO.
calling out an entire group of people most of whom are legitimately doing nothing wrong, is disgusting. Call out the thieves, don't blame the community. Yes, most people here are opportunists, not shady characters and no one here believes in stealing from non Jews, our coffee of law clearly prohibits that. Look up shulchan aruch. Stop spreading hate and giving legitimacy to mein kampf or protocols of the elders of Zion. Everyone here knows you're lying, but a non Jews reading this forum might say "hey, maybe it's true..." So basically you are trying to hate on hareidi Jews and pretending that there is even a single one who allowed stealing- totally against halacha!!!

Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #31 on: March 04, 2019, 11:17:20 AM »
@Dan
Please remove @Denverite's post. Many of the points there are off mark and it will probably be quoted in an article that will be published soon, IMHO.
calling out an entire group of people most of whom are legitimately doing nothing wrong, is disgusting. Call out the thieves, don't blame the community. Yes, most people here are opportunists, not shady characters and no one here believes in stealing from non Jews, our coffee of law clearly prohibits that. Look up shulchan aruch. Stop spreading hate and giving legitimacy to mein kampf or protocols of the elders of Zion. Everyone here knows you're lying, but a non Jews reading this forum might say "hey, maybe it's true..." So basically you are trying to hate on hareidi Jews and pretending that there is even a single one who allowed stealing- totally against halacha!!!

Guys, I asked a question. @Dan can feel free to remove my post, especially if it will harm other Jews as that was never my intention. I truly hope that people wonít fall into this trap again, end of story.

Iím sorry if I used the word shady. It wasnít consice and I didnít mean to be deragatory. My point is that selling points is clearly against the terms of all credit cards. In order to do it, you need to hide it from the banks and very lovely great people seem to be totally comfortable with it and I honestly donít understand how (hence my question about Halacha, culture, etc.).

Iím not naive about what goes on in DDF but I do try to stay away from all the threads about how to get around the rules the banks have set up because I so enjoy the trip reports and many other amazing things Iíve learned on here.



Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #32 on: March 04, 2019, 11:22:31 AM »
No.

I am willing to bet that many of the victims did NOT know that itís against the t&c and are only finding this out now. If anything, the merchants used their Jewish/Chassidic background to lure unsuspecting Jewish/Chassidic victims into the scheme. Itís called affinity fraud and has been discussed in this thread.

Fair enough, many probably truly didnít know. I appreciate your answer.  I know it may be unpopular, but then part of a holistic effort to prevent this type of horrible fraud in the future is having an open discussion and working to educate people about what financial Terms & Conditons of financial institutions are and the risks of breaking them in any form.

Online AJK

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #33 on: March 04, 2019, 11:24:53 AM »
My question is, do you think that certain attitudes of acceptance toward stealing and cheating non-Jews (ie, I know itís against the bank rules but those rules of the goyim donít really apply to us anyway) was also a large contributing factor

"[T]hose rules of the goyim don't really apply to us?" 

What on earth?  I'm not sure if that statement is meant to echo someone else (or another community entirely), or whether that "I" is meant to actually signify you talking, but even if what you're suggesting is accurate -- and it most certainly is not, see, at the very least, dina de-malchuta dina -- I would hope (and expect) that moral, law abiding, Jews were raised in such a way that they know, even inherently, that it not OK to steal, malign, trick, or cheat anyone, regardless of religion.

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Online AJK

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #34 on: March 04, 2019, 11:32:30 AM »
My point is that selling points is clearly against the terms of all credit cards. In order to do it, you need to hide it from the banks and very lovely great people seem to be totally comfortable with it and I honestly donít understand how (hence my question about Halacha, culture, etc.).

You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]
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Offline zale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #35 on: March 04, 2019, 11:43:04 AM »
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

I would add that sometimes a breach of contract can also be a breach of law. For example, inflating income to get a higher credit limit would be a breach of contract and law at the same time.

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #36 on: March 04, 2019, 11:49:29 AM »
I would add that sometimes a breach of contract can also be a breach of law. For example, inflating income to get a higher credit limit would be a breach of contract and law at the same time.


Thatís not a breach of contract.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #37 on: March 04, 2019, 11:54:29 AM »

Thatís not a breach of contract.
+1

Thereís no contract at that point.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline chff

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #38 on: March 04, 2019, 12:05:28 PM »

Offline zale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #39 on: March 04, 2019, 12:14:47 PM »
I'll ask my question again. Who wants to take bets?

And my second question: will @Dan let people know their anonymity is compromised :)

To be clear, you want to bet that the feds will ask for the information, or that they will actually get the information?

https://investorshub.advfn.com/boards/legal_ref.aspx

Scroll down to the section titled "For the record - past litigation involving Investors Hub" and see how many subpoenas were sent to Investorshub for user information. They all lost.

By the way, Investorshub is a cesspool of people posting derogatory/false information about public companies that actually hurt their stock and reputation.

@Dan you should consider adding a privacy policy and legal reference in similar fashion.

Offline lunatic

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2019, 12:50:14 PM »
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.


[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

Very interesting perspective

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2019, 01:01:07 PM »
an open discussion and working to educate people about what financial Terms & Conditons of financial institutions are and the risks of breaking them in any form.
Do you actually read the T&C every time you sign that you did? Or are you depending on summaries of the T&C by other people?

Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2019, 01:04:31 PM »
Very interesting perspective

Yes, it is interesting and thanks @AJK for clarifying. So I guess my next question is whether then itís ok in Halacha to knowing and willfully breach a contract?

Obviously, Iím putting aside the realities of the people who donít or didnít know. In general though, Iím very curious to know the answer to that question. If the answer is no then people who follow Halacha maybe should try their best to stop breaching their contracts with banks and if the answer is yes are we prepared to willingly pay the possible Chillul HaShem and other associated costs of this behavior?

Iím not casting aspersions, I want our communities to thrive and grow in the Derech HaShem and Iím worried that not addressing these core issues is harmful to us.

Offline Zalc

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2019, 01:07:04 PM »

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2019, 01:30:12 PM »
Yes, it is interesting and thanks @AJK for clarifying. So I guess my next question is whether then itís ok in Halacha to knowing and willfully breach a contract?

Mi shepara doesn't apply to a goy afaik but I could be wrong.
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