Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 4457 times)

Offline LoLo

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #75 on: March 04, 2019, 05:27:28 PM »
Maybe, maybe not, but giving a better price on cash is common practice.
I was in court last week for a speeding ticket potentially costing me 4 points on my license, after the judge agreed to settle and convert my ticket to a 0 point $250 non-moving violation, the clerk turns to me and says “I recommend you pay with cash, because with credit card we have to charge you more”.. mind you, the judge sat right there and nodded along in agreement, I doubt the judge and his clerk were colluding in some shady business..
A CC processing fee is normal, but it ain't 10%.

Offline Shotguns

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #76 on: March 04, 2019, 05:28:49 PM »
Also, unlike a cash purchase a credit card transaction may be disputed later.

Offline eliraps

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #77 on: March 04, 2019, 05:29:11 PM »
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.

[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

So hidden city for example, is legal. Ours just a breach of contract? Is this correct?

Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #78 on: March 04, 2019, 05:33:14 PM »
Do you actually read the T&C every time you sign that you did? Or are you depending on summaries of the T&C by other people?

I'll admit I don't necessarily read every page every time but because we own multiple businesses and need our lines of credit I do selfishly pay more attention than most, honestly simply because I don't want to cause harm to myself. I also admit that I've traded Hilton nights for Ritz nights and bought week Marriott certificates from awesome DDFers because I justified to myself that it's not "the same" as selling points, or swiping for others.  These tremendous losses we are seeing, scams, etc. have convinced me personally that even if these things are halachically allowed I want to stay far away from these other practices that have hurt so many others. 

I doubt denverite meant anything malicious. But it would not surprise me if people (even other frum Jews) view many in the yeshivish/chasidish communities as not caring about secular law. Warranted or not, that's the stereotype.

I really didn't mean to imply this and I just didn't have the secular legal or halachic knowledge to ask the question correctly.  All things being equal, I'd always rather do business with someone who takes halacha seriously and hareidi people are very likely to do so.  Although you are correct that many people do have this stereotype and even as an OOTer sometimes we just don't understand how things go on in larger communities that just wouldn't happen here.  I'm not trying to blame the many good people who are vicitims or even knowingly just good people trying to earn a few extra dollars.  I really was trying to understand how sincere frum people discuss how to do some of the practices for hundreds of pages on here and how frum newspapers can halachically place ads for swiping and cc farms or a YESHIVA (I still can't really believe that even with posts confirming it) can ask their parents to break a contract, in return for discounted tuition.  These people care about Das Torah so then how can they advocate breaking a contract?

Again I should have used that breach of contract term from the beginning, instead of stealing and I do appreciate you giving me the benefit of the doubt.

Mi shepara doesn't apply to a goy afaik but I could be wrong.

THIS is what I was trying to get at.  People can call me disgusting or judgmental or spreading bad stereotypes but if this is how the Psak falls on these issues then maybe that's how Torah based businesses and mosdos are literally advertising and promoting these practices?   And I hate to put it in writing but I guess it's the halacha, if breaking a contract with a Jew IS different than with a non-Jew and if people don't want this known in the outer world (I certainly don't, it's making me nauseous just thinking about it) then maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 06:47:48 PM by Denverite »

Offline Ephraimh

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #79 on: March 04, 2019, 05:48:11 PM »
A CC processing fee is normal, but it ain't 10%.
That's because there's CC processing fees, same with the IRS.
I see.
Sounded from her that there are other fees involved as well (to quote the judge “yeah, it’ll be super expensive”) but I might be wrong.

Ok, back on topic! Where are we with Mi Shepara?

Offline JACKBLUE

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2019, 05:49:34 PM »
Wow this is without CM around..... imagine how this thread would look with CM’s point of view!

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2019, 05:55:04 PM »
maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.

This is one point I would agree with. I believe there is a huge underestimation of the risks of potential chilul Hashem even with activity that is technically legal , especially when it is not just a handful of people but a much larger scale. Likewise, there is an underestimation of the spread of information in this day and age made by regular people as well as the Rabbonim. Whether Yiddish, Hebrew, a spoken recording, a small time local paper, etc. everything is out there and we need to start acting like it is.

Online ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2019, 06:11:26 PM »
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?

And declare the full amount of the cash transaction on the books?

The only place where such a steep cash discount makes sense while paying all related taxes is where your cost of capital is higher than those of the swipers/scammers.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline joey89

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2019, 07:20:06 PM »
And declare the full amount of the cash transaction on the books?

The only place where such a steep cash discount makes sense while paying all related taxes is where your cost of capital is higher than those of the swipers/scammers.
Therein lies the “win/win”, the merchant has no interest in saving you the sales tax without a benefit to him as well.
אין אדם חוטא ולא לו
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 07:28:17 PM by joey89 »

Offline knowitall

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Offline pointer

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2019, 07:38:42 PM »
Can someone please translate?
How bout google?

Online ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2019, 07:44:10 PM »
Can someone please translate?
Huh? With a name like that you need help in translation?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline knowitall

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2019, 07:44:30 PM »
How bout google?
google actually did better than usual:

1. If you were told "do not tell anyone" or "it's a secret" - immediately run away from the deal.

2. All promises such as "safe profits", "zero risks", are at best imaginations.

3. Promises for "big profits" are fantasies or cheating (such things can only happen in drug deals or weapons and for that they do not need you).

4. Remember that a person who wishes to lie will distance his proposal (bless the Jews that his assets are close to the city).

5. The investments offered in the newspapers in the face of advertisements or small ads, ranked from very suspicious and certainly cheating.

6. If you find a contradiction. Hole or rendering in the words of the bargain offeror or a phrase like "You will not understand", is a cheater.

7. Never invest in a young student in the twenties.

8. Even a well-known trader who suddenly offers investments seems to find himself in trouble and exploits his record and his name.

9. Never run away from a sudden meteor that starts giving big sums to charity or driving in a luxury car.

10. If he is involved in the deal, even one dubious person, no matter what form, fled immediately. Do not think you're going to get some cheating, embezzlement, or theft with him. He'll steal you.

11. Those who need to reach small investors like you, is in difficulties.

12. Even if others have already profited from it, it is still "his investment" or in the process of entanglement.

13. If there are errors in contract writing or writing rules (also negligible) in English, there is no need to explore more.

14. There is no investment without documents, there is no Oral Law in business.

15. Do not sign a deal without a reliable lawyer on your behalf, and not an attorney that he offers.

16. Never sign before a few days pass, even if "the deal will probably run away." At least the money will stay with you.

17. Do not make a deal that your wife denies.

18. Never make a deal without consulting a person who has no interest: a rabbi, a rabbi, a good friend (he will surely invalidate 90 percent of the proposals)

19. If your rabbi is spoiled with a reason, the reason should not be correct, the very negation is correct (he can not always tell you the real reason)

20. Merchants (games, gamblers) in shares on the stock exchange - Stay away from them on any level.

21. People with "internal information" about "certain shares" are held captive by false beliefs. If it is true, do not need him and you.

22. Consider if you can be: at your investment of $ 20,000. Until the money reaches the destination, through the agent and the sub-agent, etc., ten thousand dollars remain for the investment. If the expectation is 100 percent, that is, 40 thousand dollars, is to earn 400 percent (since the business has only reached ten thousand dollars). All this is after taxes (40 to 35 percent), levies, currency swaps, office management expenses, CPAs, lawyers and profits that the 'big trader' has to earn - that is, no less than 800 percent.


At the end of the week "B'Kehila" pages 2-3-4-


Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2019, 08:01:02 PM »


I also admit that I've traded Hilton nights for Ritz nights and bought week Marriott certificates from awesome DDFers because I justified to myself that it's not "the same" as selling points, or swiping for others.  These tremendous losses we are seeing, scams, etc. have convinced me personally that even if these things are halachically allowed I want to stay far away from these other practices that have hurt so many others. 

Skiplagged is one of the highest profile examples of DDF style breaking contracts but not the law. When it is reported on, it's often framed as the little guy taking on the giant evil corporations. The fact that when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice.

You concocted a world view and tarred entire communities (who aren't even all that different to you) with it because a small portion of them are points sellers, while having no issue trading hotel certs yourself. How are they distinguishable? They're not.

I used to look at all the cc farm ads promising $10,000 and scoff to myself  that no way that would fly in Crown Heights. Then Sterling folded and the story came out...

We are all prejudiced, it's a question of to what degree. But when trying to figure out how people got scammed, it's probably best to disgard reasoning that denigrates or stereotypes large swaths of people. The reasons that account for all kinds of individuals, people with faults and vulnerabilities just like any other individuals, are more likely to be true.
Quote from: ExGingi
Yehuda57 needs to spew a certain amount of sarcasm in order to survive through the day.

Offline Dave321

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2019, 08:04:44 PM »
How come there was no discuss about cc sign up farms? Those are still going on, catching new fish daily.