Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 27657 times)

Offline lunatic

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #40 on: March 04, 2019, 12:50:14 PM »
You make a mistake (albeit one that is not uncommon): you conflate breach of contract with breach of the law.

Breaching a contract is not unlawful, it simply subjects you to whatever liability you contractually agreed to incur (whether expressly or otherwise).  By way of example, if I agree to sell you 100 widgets at $100 per piece, but then I find another buyer at $1,000 per piece, I can -- not unlawfully -- choose to not sell to you, with the knowledge and understanding that I am subjecting myself to certain liability to you (which will vary by contract).  I will not become a suspect in a criminal investigation simply because I decided to not sell to you.

In short, one can remain a "very lovely great" person even if they decide to breach a contract.


[This is not to be construed as legal advice, for which you should seek a competent attorney.]

Very interesting perspective

Offline ckmk47

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #41 on: March 04, 2019, 01:01:07 PM »
an open discussion and working to educate people about what financial Terms & Conditons of financial institutions are and the risks of breaking them in any form.
Do you actually read the T&C every time you sign that you did? Or are you depending on summaries of the T&C by other people?
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Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #42 on: March 04, 2019, 01:04:31 PM »
Very interesting perspective

Yes, it is interesting and thanks @AJK for clarifying. So I guess my next question is whether then it’s ok in Halacha to knowing and willfully breach a contract?

Obviously, I’m putting aside the realities of the people who don’t or didn’t know. In general though, I’m very curious to know the answer to that question. If the answer is no then people who follow Halacha maybe should try their best to stop breaching their contracts with banks and if the answer is yes are we prepared to willingly pay the possible Chillul HaShem and other associated costs of this behavior?

I’m not casting aspersions, I want our communities to thrive and grow in the Derech HaShem and I’m worried that not addressing these core issues is harmful to us.

Offline Zalc

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #43 on: March 04, 2019, 01:07:04 PM »

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #44 on: March 04, 2019, 01:30:12 PM »
Yes, it is interesting and thanks @AJK for clarifying. So I guess my next question is whether then it’s ok in Halacha to knowing and willfully breach a contract?

Mi shepara doesn't apply to a goy afaik but I could be wrong.
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Offline yitzgar

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #45 on: March 04, 2019, 01:38:25 PM »
@Dan
Please remove @Denverite's post. Many of the points there are off mark and it will probably be quoted in an article that will be published soon, IMHO.
calling out an entire group of people most of whom are legitimately doing nothing wrong, is disgusting. Call out the thieves, don't blame the community. Yes, most people here are opportunists, not shady characters and no one here believes in stealing from non Jews, our coffee of law clearly prohibits that. Look up shulchan aruch. Stop spreading hate and giving legitimacy to mein kampf or protocols of the elders of Zion. Everyone here knows you're lying, but a non Jews reading this forum might say "hey, maybe it's true..." So basically you are trying to hate on hareidi Jews and pretending that there is even a single one who allowed stealing- totally against halacha!!!
I doubt denverite meant anything malicious. But it would not surprise me if people (even other frum Jews) view many in the yeshivish/chasidish communities as not caring about secular law. Warranted or not, that's the stereotype.
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 02:56:20 PM by yitzgar »

Offline stooges44

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #46 on: March 04, 2019, 01:44:18 PM »
I doubt denverite meant anything malicious. But it would not surprise me if people (even other frum Jews) view many in the yeshivish/chasidish communities as not caring about secular law.

It's not that they don't care, they literally don't know.

I remember during the prior govt shutdown (not the most recent one) one of the chasiddish guys that works in the tax dept by us needed to call the irs and he kept calling and calling until someone finally said "hello, the irs is closed because of the shutdown" the poor guy looked so confused. To this day I'm not sure he knows what a shutdown is or means but he does now know that you can't call the irs when there is a shutdown.
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #47 on: March 04, 2019, 02:12:38 PM »
It's not that they don't care, they literally don't know.

I remember during the prior govt shutdown (not the most recent one) one of the chasiddish guys that works in the tax dept by us needed to call the irs and he kept calling and calling until someone finally said "hello, the irs is closed because of the shutdown" the poor guy looked so confused. To this day I'm not sure he knows what a shutdown is or means but he does now know that you can't call the irs when there is a shutdown.

Reminds me of the guy who allegedly tried to avoid tax at the DMV by paying in cash.

Online Something Fishy

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #48 on: March 04, 2019, 02:52:48 PM »
Reminds me of the guy who allegedly tried to avoid tax at the DMV by paying in cash.

And just yesterday I bought something in a very non-Jewish store, gave the cashier my credit card to pay, and was told "you know if you pay by CC we'll need to charge you tax, right?"

Tell me again how this is a Jewish issue.
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Offline LoLo

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #49 on: March 04, 2019, 02:57:17 PM »
Chinese snooker place in Manhattan had an 8% 'Cash discount'..

Offline 12HRS

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #50 on: March 04, 2019, 03:00:36 PM »
And just yesterday I bought something in a very non-Jewish store, gave the cashier my credit card to pay, and was told "you know if you pay by CC we'll need to charge you tax, right?"

Tell me again how this is a Jewish issue.

Yup. went to a geico approved mechanic in NY and they asked me to bring cash for a much better rate. Its not purely a jewish thing.

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2019, 03:07:15 PM »
Same thing happened when an electrician listed on Tesla's site came to install a Tesla home charger in my house.
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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #52 on: March 04, 2019, 03:10:04 PM »
Same thing happened when an electrician listed on Tesla's site came to install a Tesla home charger in my house.

Only way to have this not happen is to go the Indian way (partially adopted in Israel) - ban Cash. (Did I hear anyone say let's start accumulating gold and silver coins?)
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #53 on: March 04, 2019, 03:10:06 PM »
Same thing happened when an electrician listed on Tesla's site came to install a Tesla home charger in my house.

He said it will be tax-free if you pay in cash?

Offline joey89

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #54 on: March 04, 2019, 03:11:41 PM »
And just yesterday I bought something in a very non-Jewish store, gave the cashier my credit card to pay, and was told "you know if you pay by CC we'll need to charge you tax, right?"

Tell me again how this is a Jewish issue.
What’s the difference between non-Jewish and very non-Jewish ;)

Offline 12HRS

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #55 on: March 04, 2019, 03:12:47 PM »
Only way to have this not happen is to go the Indian way (partially adopted in Israel) - ban Cash. (Did I hear anyone say let's start accumulating gold and silver coins?)

well if you get rid of income and sales tax that would also work  :P

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #56 on: March 04, 2019, 03:14:52 PM »
He said it will be tax-free if you pay in cash?
He said he could knock 10% off if I paid cash.
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Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #57 on: March 04, 2019, 03:17:57 PM »
He said he could knock 10% off if I paid cash.

Thats totally reasonable and would hold true in any demographic. I was specifically referring to taxes.

Offline churnbabychurn

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #58 on: March 04, 2019, 03:23:28 PM »
Yup. went to a geico approved mechanic in NY and they asked me to bring cash for a much better rate. Its not purely a jewish thing.
"not purely a Jewish thing"

I have seen plenty of fraud, theft, tax aversion etc etc by non Jews at every socioeconomic level.

People's (frum ppl!) perception that "Jews" are more dishonest is a big pet peeve... It's terrible.

Offline Dan

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #59 on: March 04, 2019, 03:26:18 PM »
Thats totally reasonable and would hold true in any demographic. I was specifically referring to taxes.
So it's bad to knock off 9% but totally reasonable  to knock off 10% for a cash payment demand?
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