Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 27630 times)

Offline JACKBLUE

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #80 on: March 04, 2019, 05:49:34 PM »
Wow this is without CM around..... imagine how this thread would look with CM’s point of view!

Offline cmey

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #81 on: March 04, 2019, 05:55:04 PM »
maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.

This is one point I would agree with. I believe there is a huge underestimation of the risks of potential chilul Hashem even with activity that is technically legal , especially when it is not just a handful of people but a much larger scale. Likewise, there is an underestimation of the spread of information in this day and age made by regular people as well as the Rabbonim. Whether Yiddish, Hebrew, a spoken recording, a small time local paper, etc. everything is out there and we need to start acting like it is.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #82 on: March 04, 2019, 06:11:26 PM »
Lol, you think they were going to pay sales tax on a cash transaction?

And declare the full amount of the cash transaction on the books?

The only place where such a steep cash discount makes sense while paying all related taxes is where your cost of capital is higher than those of the swipers/scammers.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline joey89

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #83 on: March 04, 2019, 07:20:06 PM »
And declare the full amount of the cash transaction on the books?

The only place where such a steep cash discount makes sense while paying all related taxes is where your cost of capital is higher than those of the swipers/scammers.
Therein lies the “win/win”, the merchant has no interest in saving you the sales tax without a benefit to him as well.
אין אדם חוטא ולא לו
« Last Edit: March 04, 2019, 07:28:17 PM by joey89 »

Offline knowitall

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Offline pointer

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #85 on: March 04, 2019, 07:38:42 PM »
Can someone please translate?
How bout google?

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #86 on: March 04, 2019, 07:44:10 PM »
Can someone please translate?
Huh? With a name like that you need help in translation?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline knowitall

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #87 on: March 04, 2019, 07:44:30 PM »
How bout google?
google actually did better than usual:

1. If you were told "do not tell anyone" or "it's a secret" - immediately run away from the deal.

2. All promises such as "safe profits", "zero risks", are at best imaginations.

3. Promises for "big profits" are fantasies or cheating (such things can only happen in drug deals or weapons and for that they do not need you).

4. Remember that a person who wishes to lie will distance his proposal (bless the Jews that his assets are close to the city).

5. The investments offered in the newspapers in the face of advertisements or small ads, ranked from very suspicious and certainly cheating.

6. If you find a contradiction. Hole or rendering in the words of the bargain offeror or a phrase like "You will not understand", is a cheater.

7. Never invest in a young student in the twenties.

8. Even a well-known trader who suddenly offers investments seems to find himself in trouble and exploits his record and his name.

9. Never run away from a sudden meteor that starts giving big sums to charity or driving in a luxury car.

10. If he is involved in the deal, even one dubious person, no matter what form, fled immediately. Do not think you're going to get some cheating, embezzlement, or theft with him. He'll steal you.

11. Those who need to reach small investors like you, is in difficulties.

12. Even if others have already profited from it, it is still "his investment" or in the process of entanglement.

13. If there are errors in contract writing or writing rules (also negligible) in English, there is no need to explore more.

14. There is no investment without documents, there is no Oral Law in business.

15. Do not sign a deal without a reliable lawyer on your behalf, and not an attorney that he offers.

16. Never sign before a few days pass, even if "the deal will probably run away." At least the money will stay with you.

17. Do not make a deal that your wife denies.

18. Never make a deal without consulting a person who has no interest: a rabbi, a rabbi, a good friend (he will surely invalidate 90 percent of the proposals)

19. If your rabbi is spoiled with a reason, the reason should not be correct, the very negation is correct (he can not always tell you the real reason)

20. Merchants (games, gamblers) in shares on the stock exchange - Stay away from them on any level.

21. People with "internal information" about "certain shares" are held captive by false beliefs. If it is true, do not need him and you.

22. Consider if you can be: at your investment of $ 20,000. Until the money reaches the destination, through the agent and the sub-agent, etc., ten thousand dollars remain for the investment. If the expectation is 100 percent, that is, 40 thousand dollars, is to earn 400 percent (since the business has only reached ten thousand dollars). All this is after taxes (40 to 35 percent), levies, currency swaps, office management expenses, CPAs, lawyers and profits that the 'big trader' has to earn - that is, no less than 800 percent.


At the end of the week "B'Kehila" pages 2-3-4-


Offline Yehuda57

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #88 on: March 04, 2019, 08:01:02 PM »


I also admit that I've traded Hilton nights for Ritz nights and bought week Marriott certificates from awesome DDFers because I justified to myself that it's not "the same" as selling points, or swiping for others.  These tremendous losses we are seeing, scams, etc. have convinced me personally that even if these things are halachically allowed I want to stay far away from these other practices that have hurt so many others. 

Skiplagged is one of the highest profile examples of DDF style breaking contracts but not the law. When it is reported on, it's often framed as the little guy taking on the giant evil corporations. The fact that when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice.

You concocted a world view and tarred entire communities (who aren't even all that different to you) with it because a small portion of them are points sellers, while having no issue trading hotel certs yourself. How are they distinguishable? They're not.

I used to look at all the cc farm ads promising $10,000 and scoff to myself  that no way that would fly in Crown Heights. Then Sterling folded and the story came out...

We are all prejudiced, it's a question of to what degree. But when trying to figure out how people got scammed, it's probably best to disgard reasoning that denigrates or stereotypes large swaths of people. The reasons that account for all kinds of individuals, people with faults and vulnerabilities just like any other individuals, are more likely to be true.

Offline Dave321

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #89 on: March 04, 2019, 08:04:44 PM »
How come there was no discuss about cc sign up farms? Those are still going on, catching new fish daily.


Offline JACKBLUE

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2019, 08:33:57 PM »
How come there was no discuss about cc sign up farms? Those are still going on, catching new fish daily.
Are you following this thread?????

Offline Denverite

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2019, 08:52:47 PM »

Skiplagged is one of the highest profile examples of DDF style breaking contracts but not the law. When it is reported on, it's often framed as the little guy taking on the giant evil corporations. The fact that when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice.

You concocted a world view and tarred entire communities (who aren't even all that different to you) with it because a small portion of them are points sellers, while having no issue trading hotel certs yourself. How are they distinguishable? They're not.

I used to look at all the cc farm ads promising $10,000 and scoff to myself  that no way that would fly in Crown Heights. Then Sterling folded and the story came out...

We are all prejudiced, it's a question of to what degree. But when trying to figure out how people got scammed, it's probably best to disgard reasoning that denigrates or stereotypes large swaths of people. The reasons that account for all kinds of individuals, people with faults and vulnerabilities just like any other individuals, are more likely to be true.

I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.


 

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2019, 09:07:36 PM »
THIS is what I was trying to get at.  People can call me disgusting or judgmental or spreading bad stereotypes but if this is how the Psak falls on these issues then maybe that's how Torah based businesses and mosdos are literally advertising and promoting these practices?   And I hate to put it in writing but I guess it's the halacha, if breaking a contract with a Jew IS different than with a non-Jew and if people don't want this known in the outer world (I certainly don't, it's making me nauseous just thinking about it) then maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.
But you are allowed to break a contract with a jew also...It's just a matter of whether or not a mi shepara applies. It doesn't always apply by a jew either.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2019, 09:14:34 PM »
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline unavailable

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2019, 09:17:02 PM »
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
which goes to say thats its not the same as stealing.


Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2019, 09:18:25 PM »
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.
Again, why are you so convinced that this isn't halachically allowed or only allowed with a non-jew? You're building this entire thing based on assumptions that may or may not be correct. Making a chillul hashem is obviously not ok in any situation but you don't necessarily have to assume that a chillul hashem will come out by you doing anything under the sun. If halacha allows something and you have no reason to assume that, under normal circumstances, a chillul hashem will occur, then why would you or should you stay away from it?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2019, 09:19:35 PM »
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

Are you familiar with the term Contract of Adhesion?

Are you aware that Airline’s Contract of Carriage is such a contract, yet it obligates the airlines to virtually nothing?

There’s no reason to feel bad for the airlines. They have a system that they abuse to their benefit, and when you beat them at their own game, there’s nothing wrong with that. At least that’s what courts have ruled when airlines tried to sue for extra airfare.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2019, 09:19:40 PM »
which goes to say thats its not the same as stealing.


Did someone call it stealing?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2019, 09:20:00 PM »
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline unavailable

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2019, 09:22:25 PM »
Did someone call it stealing?
just saying that even though ein ruach ... it is permitted.