Author Topic: Cheating Attitude?  (Read 4410 times)

Offline JACKBLUE

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 1526
  • Total likes: 91
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #90 on: March 04, 2019, 08:33:57 PM »
How come there was no discuss about cc sign up farms? Those are still going on, catching new fish daily.
Are you following this thread?????

Offline Denverite

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: May 2015
  • Posts: 1993
  • Total likes: 165
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 1
    • View Profile
  • Location: Denver
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #91 on: March 04, 2019, 08:52:47 PM »

Skiplagged is one of the highest profile examples of DDF style breaking contracts but not the law. When it is reported on, it's often framed as the little guy taking on the giant evil corporations. The fact that when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice.

You concocted a world view and tarred entire communities (who aren't even all that different to you) with it because a small portion of them are points sellers, while having no issue trading hotel certs yourself. How are they distinguishable? They're not.

I used to look at all the cc farm ads promising $10,000 and scoff to myself  that no way that would fly in Crown Heights. Then Sterling folded and the story came out...

We are all prejudiced, it's a question of to what degree. But when trying to figure out how people got scammed, it's probably best to disgard reasoning that denigrates or stereotypes large swaths of people. The reasons that account for all kinds of individuals, people with faults and vulnerabilities just like any other individuals, are more likely to be true.

I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.


 

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 8120
  • Total likes: 827
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #92 on: March 04, 2019, 09:07:36 PM »
THIS is what I was trying to get at.  People can call me disgusting or judgmental or spreading bad stereotypes but if this is how the Psak falls on these issues then maybe that's how Torah based businesses and mosdos are literally advertising and promoting these practices?   And I hate to put it in writing but I guess it's the halacha, if breaking a contract with a Jew IS different than with a non-Jew and if people don't want this known in the outer world (I certainly don't, it's making me nauseous just thinking about it) then maybe the Torah world should address the Chillul HaShem factor as part of their shailas and Psak.
But you are allowed to break a contract with a jew also...It's just a matter of whether or not a mi shepara applies. It doesn't always apply by a jew either.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7929
  • Total likes: 2167
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #93 on: March 04, 2019, 09:14:34 PM »
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline unavailable

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 475
  • Total likes: 7
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: bp
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #94 on: March 04, 2019, 09:17:02 PM »
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
which goes to say thats its not the same as stealing.


Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 8120
  • Total likes: 827
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #95 on: March 04, 2019, 09:18:25 PM »
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

I also said I bear the haredi community no ill will.  I don't label myself hareidi (or anything else) but became religious through Chabad and owe them my life and my children go to Hareidi schools because I choose send choose to them there to inculcate a love of Torah. 

I'm not convinced that "when frum Jews do similar exploits (sell miles, hotel free nights, etc) people look at it as shady and scammy instead of little Davids fighting Goliaths is because of prejudice."  Maybe it is only prejudice as you say.  The only reason I didn't address other groups doing these behaviors that are a clear breach of the T&Cs of their financial institutions is because they don't cause Chillul HaShem, we do.

If we are only halachically allowed to do these things because we are breaking a contract with a non-Jew, then I personally don't want to do it for many reasons, including a Chillul HaShem (even if others are prejudiced, we are ultimately responsible for our own behavior).  Maybe these types of scams and behaviors are because of affinity fraud or financial desperation, not other reasons, and I accept that.  As you said, we all have faults and vulnerabilites and knowing that, I'm just humbly suggesting that we all should be extra aware of our vulnerabilities and the damage we are doing to ourselves and communities.
Again, why are you so convinced that this isn't halachically allowed or only allowed with a non-jew? You're building this entire thing based on assumptions that may or may not be correct. Making a chillul hashem is obviously not ok in any situation but you don't necessarily have to assume that a chillul hashem will come out by you doing anything under the sun. If halacha allows something and you have no reason to assume that, under normal circumstances, a chillul hashem will occur, then why would you or should you stay away from it?
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6839
  • Total likes: 1284
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #96 on: March 04, 2019, 09:19:35 PM »
I have said and will continue to say that I did not mean to denigrate anyone and I apologize if I did so. I specifically said about myself buying a week certificate to say that even I have done things that have broken T&Cs and I'm personally resolving to try not to in the future.  I never did hidden city booking but now that a few people have pointed that out, I will specifically try never to do it.

Are you familiar with the term Contract of Adhesion?

Are you aware that Airline’s Contract of Carriage is such a contract, yet it obligates the airlines to virtually nothing?

There’s no reason to feel bad for the airlines. They have a system that they abuse to their benefit, and when you beat them at their own game, there’s nothing wrong with that. At least that’s what courts have ruled when airlines tried to sue for extra airfare.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7929
  • Total likes: 2167
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #97 on: March 04, 2019, 09:19:40 PM »
which goes to say thats its not the same as stealing.


Did someone call it stealing?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline mmgfarb

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Dec 2015
  • Posts: 8120
  • Total likes: 827
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 4
    • View Profile
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #98 on: March 04, 2019, 09:20:00 PM »
Not sure why this is dependent upon mi shepara. Even when it dies not apply one is considered michusrei amana (loosely translated as dishonest) and ein ruach chachomim nocha heimenu
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
"JS [is] a fetid cesspool of unvarnished linguistic manure, with lots of useless drivel and post-padding." -Moishebatchy

Offline unavailable

  • Dansdeals Platinum Elite
  • ****
  • Join Date: Dec 2013
  • Posts: 475
  • Total likes: 7
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: bp
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #99 on: March 04, 2019, 09:22:25 PM »
Did someone call it stealing?
just saying that even though ein ruach ... it is permitted.

Offline ExGingi

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Nov 2015
  • Posts: 6839
  • Total likes: 1284
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 8
    • View Profile
  • Location: 770
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #100 on: March 04, 2019, 09:23:18 PM »
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
I think that @aygart brought additional reasons, but I am not sure if those apply when the other party is not a natural person (i.e. A corporation).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline EJB

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: Sep 2012
  • Posts: 5110
  • Total likes: 159
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 15
    • View Profile
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #101 on: March 04, 2019, 09:23:40 PM »
There’s also a difference between fraud and breach of contract. Probably several years of jail

Offline hvaces42

  • Dansdeals Presidential Platinum Elite
  • ********
  • Join Date: Nov 2013
  • Posts: 4627
  • Total likes: 665
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 14
    • View Profile
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #102 on: March 04, 2019, 09:25:00 PM »
Wow this is without CM around..... imagine how this thread would look with CM’s point of view!
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
Fair warning - Any PMs sent in response to forum posts are fair game for ridicule in public.

Offline JACKBLUE

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Platinum Elite
  • *******
  • Join Date: Jan 2014
  • Posts: 1526
  • Total likes: 91
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 0
    • View Profile
  • Location: USA
Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #103 on: March 04, 2019, 09:25:44 PM »
Isnt he @PSA @PSA2 and every other new member in the last week?
No chance!

Offline aygart

  • Dansdeals Lifetime Presidential Platinum Elite
  • *********
  • Join Date: May 2008
  • Posts: 7929
  • Total likes: 2167
  • DansDeals.com Hat Tips 7
    • View Profile
    • Lower Watt Energy Brokers
  • Programs: www.lowerwatt.com
Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #104 on: March 04, 2019, 09:28:04 PM »
That was my point exactly, the only reason not to break a contract is a mi shepara and halachically you are allowed to do that.
@Denverite wrote that even if it is permitted is should be frowned upon and is the wrong thing to do. That seems exactly in line with what I wrote.
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.