Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas

[Definitions]

I would say yes. Show me the data otherwise

Lol my chavrusa just asked me a few minutes ago how to withdraw money from the bank

[mmgfarb]

Lol my chavrusa just asked me a few minutes ago how to withdraw money from the bank

Convinced yet? I'm around this age group all the time, they know nothing.

[yelped]

I believe the reid is often an explanation of the rishonim with svaros and definitions as well as how they understand the gemara and its most fundamental concepts.

I said mine. I don't want to open my mouth too much. Suffice it to say you'll be hard pressed to align any of these "Reid" with the mehalech of any of the Rishonim or Achronim. A shame that many people devote their energies to it, and can spend years learning without even learning the fundamental miktzoias, in Tanach, Shas, Halacha, and Machshava.

[Yitzshpitz]

I said mine. I don't want to open my mouth too much. Suffice it to say you'll be hard pressed to align any of these "Reid" with the mehalech of any of the Rishonim or Achronim.

I dont really understand this statement. Often the achronim are giving their explanations of the rishonim and base their yesodos on the rishonim so to say they dont align with them is not accurate. (example- Rav Chaim explaining Rambam)

... and can spend years learning without even learning the fundamental miktzoias, in Tanach, Shas, Halacha, and Machshava.

I dont disagree with this part

[yelped]

I dont really understand this statement. Often the achronim are giving their explanations of the rishonim and base their yesodos on the rishonim so to say they dont align with them is not accurate. (example- Rav Chaim explaining Rambam)

I dont disagree with this part

Lol. I meant what I said.

[Yitzshpitz]

Lol. I meant what I said.

But I dont understand what you meant or said lol

[good sam]

But I dont understand what you meant or said lol

It's tzvei dinim: you may agree with the amitiyus hadvarim and reject the toyeles hadvarim and vice versa.

[Boruch999]

But I dont understand what you meant or said lol

He is saying that the Rambam didn't learn like R' Chaim and that a lot of the fancier lomdus found in the raid is very hard to say was the intention of the lashon of the Rishonim that they are derived from.

To 'align' them you need to say one of two things.  1)  The reshonim wrote in multiple layers (analogous to pardes in Torah) and there is an underlying code they embedded which contains the lomdus. 2) They did not intend it but they had a special siyata dishmaya and the code got embedded memaila. 

I have heard from coshuve talmidie chachomim that both explanations are valid. 

[yelped]

He is saying that the Rambam didn't learn like R' Chaim and that a lot of the fancier lomdus found in the raid is very hard to say was the intention of the lashon of the Rishonim that they are derived from.

To 'align' them you need to say one of two things.  1)  The reshonim wrote in multiple layers (analogous to pardes in Torah) and there is an underlying code they embedded which contains the lomdus. 2) They did not intend it but they had a special siyata dishmaya and the code got embedded memaila. 

I have heard from coshuve talmidie chachomim that both explanations are valid.

You left out 3). It's a very nice lomdus, but it's not what the Rambam said.

 Like the famous joke of a lamdan who came to Gan Eden and started talking in learning with the Rambam. Eventually he says, "R' Moshe, you're not learning the right pshat in the Rambam"!

[Yitzshpitz]

He is saying that the Rambam didn't learn like R' Chaim and that a lot of the fancier lomdus found in the raid is very hard to say was the intention of the lashon of the Rishonim that they are derived from.

To 'align' them you need to say one of two things.  1)  The reshonim wrote in multiple layers (analogous to pardes in Torah) and there is an underlying code they embedded which contains the lomdus. 2) They did not intend it but they had a special siyata dishmaya and the code got embedded memaila. 

I have heard from coshuve talmidie chachomim that both explanations are valid.

You left out 3). It's a very nice lomdus, but it's not what the Rambam said.

 Like the famous joke of a lamdan who came to Gan Eden and started talking in learning with the Rambam. Eventually he says, "R' Moshe, you're not learning the right pshat in the Rambam"!

Regardless if you think that the lumdus or pshat in the rishon is what they intended, the issues and discussions that the reid is dealing with are fundamental for proper in depth understanding of the sugya and the rishonim. There are often obvious kashas on rishonim and one must reconcile gemaras and other sources to truly understand what each rishon  was saying on a deeper level than just his general shita in the sugya. However you put it, the reid, chakiros, and lumdus are there to enhance our understanding of concepts brought down in the rishonim and their opinions of the sugyas.

[Boruch999]

Regardless if you think that the lumdus or pshat in the rishon is what they intended, the issues and discussions that the reid is dealing with are fundamental for proper in depth understanding of the sugya and the rishonim. There are often obvious kashas on rishonim and one must reconcile gemaras and other sources to truly understand what each rishon  was saying on a deeper level than just his general shita in the sugya. However you put it, the reid, chakiros, and lumdus are there to enhance our understanding of concepts brought down in the rishonim and their opinions of the sugyas.

There is a serious and inherent tension between these two statements. If the rishon didn't intend it, can it be what the rishon is saying? The problem yelped is describing begins with not recognizing or glossing over that tension.

[Yitzshpitz]

There is a serious and inherent tension between these two statements. If the rishon didn't intend it, can it be what the rishon is saying? The problem yelped is describing begins with not recognizing or glossing over that tension.

If there are questions on the pashut pshat on what a rishon said should we not try and understand what he intended to answer the questions? The premise is that the rishon had a pshat. Maybe you dont agree that the reid truely fits but it certainly attempts to reconcile for the rishonim and give svaros that help undering them. Thats what they are trying to do and thats what any person needs to do to understand the sugya in depth.

[Boruch999]

If there are questions on the pashut pshat on what a rishon said should we not try and understand what he intended to answer the questions? The premise is that the rishon had a pshat. Maybe you dont agree that the reid truely fits but it certainly attempts to reconcile for the rishonim and give svaros that help undering them. Thats what they are trying to do and thats what any person needs to do to understand the sugya in depth.

I'm with you 1000%.  I've just come across way too many 'chosheva yeshiva guys' who look at you like you are crazy when you ask how this pshat fits in to the loshon of the rishon.  Our yeshivas have created armies of people who think that a pshat is ranked by how complex it is, not by how well if fits back in to the source.  If you appreciate the need to try and fit every R' Boruch Ber and R' Shimon back in to the Rashba and the Ran you will undoubtedly come across cases where that is exceedingly difficult.  I.e. the cases where it's very difficult to say that that is what the Rishon intended. I those cases, you are left with 1 or 2 above. 

[churnbabychurn]

The Agudah comes to mind, I don't know much about rabbinic approvals though.

The agenda is to be torah true in a short and simple course to teach financial literacy and responsibility.

A yeshiva's purpose is teaching torah and avoda, not all life skills. If parents want, they can teach financial literacy themselves or hire someone.

There is no reason for this to be part of a curriculum in yeshivos.

When a child transitions to adulthood (maybe shiduchim age), they can be quickly and effectively educated by their parents, or by reading jj's text book.

Later in life when they need to get a job they can take a quick course in a myriad of fields and be just as successful as those who spent a lifetime doing limudei chol.

Lakewood is full of people who had an extremely limited k-12 and 4 year college education, but they are Masters in their fields of parnasa. - be it insurance, accounting, law, computer science, marketing, design, the list is endless.


I personally grew up with zero formal secular education, and my experience has been when working and interacting with proffesionall peers who litterally spent their lives studying secular topics, they had no noticable advantage over me in our profession at all...

[Yehuda57]

There is no reason for this to be part of a curriculum in yeshivos.

When a child transitions to adulthood (maybe shiduchim age), they can be quickly and effectively educated by their parents, or by reading jj's text book.

Later in life when they need to get a job they can take a quick course in a myriad of fields and be just as successful as those who spent a lifetime doing limudei chol.

Lakewood is full of people who had an extremely limited k-12 and 4 year college education, but they are Masters in their fields of parnasa. - be it insurance, accounting, law, computer science, marketing, design, the list is endless.


I personally grew up with zero formal secular education, and my experience has been when working and interacting with proffesionall peers who litterally spent their lives studying secular topics, they had no noticable advantage over me in our profession at all...

Aside from spelling?

[ExGingi]

Aside from spelling?

Why would you assume so?

My experience has been that my spelling (without a high school diploma) is better than many who were taught English k-12. That's not to say that I don't have spelling errors, not to mention typos.

And besides, what in English is professional, in regular english is proffesional.

[yuneeq]

Sure. See the entire Perek Hazahav. Also, the countless times throughout the Gemara where it discusses fluctuating currency values, method of payments, etc.I STRONGLY disagree. May I suggest there are possibly Gemaros and Halachos you haven’t yet covered properly?

@aygart, as our resident posek, do you agree that there are lessons about modern day finances that cannot be gleaned from proper Torah study? I don’t consider this a Choshen Mishpat shayla

Even if it is possible to teach both subjects at once, why?

Imagine you want to teach your child how to communicate with others - writing emails, making phone calls, and texting, would you mix that in while you teach them to drive? After all, both are very important skills, and if you can text and drive, you can text while not driving as well.

Gemara is difficult enough for many kids, expecting a kid to learn 2 subjects in a Gemara class is setting up many of them for failure.

[churnbabychurn]

Aside from spelling?

Lol but spelling is overrated. Seriously outlook has spell check, and I knew that was wrong when posting.. if this would be a professional communication it would never get through.. so they don't have an advantage there either.

[Yehuda57]

Lol but spelling is overrated. Seriously outlook has spell check, and I knew that was wrong when posting.. if this would be a professional communication it would never get through.. so they don't have an advantage there either.

As a copywriter, I'm inclined to disagree, but I only have a 7th grade English education, so....

[churnbabychurn]

As a copywriter, I'm inclined to disagree, but I only have a 7th grade English education, so....

So you are exihibit A showcasing my point..