Author Topic: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas  (Read 21661 times)

Offline bznt

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #15 on: March 05, 2019, 08:13:54 AM »
Looks like a mod needs to split this thread again

Offline EJB

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #16 on: March 05, 2019, 08:16:14 AM »
Looks like a mod needs to split this thread again
Or just move it to the amazon deals thread.

Offline sky121

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #17 on: March 05, 2019, 08:27:41 AM »
I respectfully disagree. Its important but it doesn't belong in a yeshiva. A yeshiva isn't business school.

You'll ask me so why is it worse than math science...? I'll answer that those don't take away from the goal of a frum person. They're there for various reasons. To give more structure to the day of a child. To make the child sharper. And possibly also to qualify for government funding.

That's just my feelings about it.

ETA: Just to clarify a little. I feel like the math, science... isn't being taught to learn it. It's being taught for the reasons stated above. On the other hand if you're teaching financial literacy it's being taught for itself. Which I think is a problem.

Since when is financial literacy only about business and not about life?


Also, financial literacy provides information to one to be able to live a proper life and includes many topics of doing things in a straight and honest way.  And many topics which should be important to oneself such as tzedakah, not doing illegal activities etc fall under financial literacy as well.    It's an especially important topic in a frum community where we choose to send our kids to private schools even though many can't really afford it.
"Not all who wander are lost"

Offline Menachem613

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #18 on: March 05, 2019, 08:30:29 AM »
Looks like a mod needs to split this thread again

Every discussion of Halacha needs to be split off.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #19 on: March 05, 2019, 08:41:19 AM »
You can not learn anything lemaaseh if you don't know metzius.  Math is metzius.  Lot's of halacha depends on a metzius which nowadays is covered by science.   While every community decides for themselves how and to what extent to teach them, to say that knowledge of math and science is the antithesis of being a frum Jew is not just wrong, it is ludicrous.
"Math" as an integral part of Torah is definitely not an antithesis to being a frum Jew. תנאים, אמוראים, ראשונים and אחרונים all knew "math". All you need to do is open up a Chumash with Rashi, Mishnayos and Gemara to see that. The question is whether the knowledge was acquired as part of learning Torah, or as a separate curriculum.

To that end, my SIL developed a curriculum that teaches the "math" in Torah (not sure if it goes to 6th or 8th grade) called הייליקע נומערן. Upon completion of the curriculum students should be able to master math to a level that will allow them to create a Jewish calendar (based on calculations explained by the Rambam in הלכות קידוש החודש).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline cmey

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #20 on: March 05, 2019, 09:00:16 AM »
Since when is financial literacy only about business and not about life?


Also, financial literacy provides information to one to be able to live a proper life and includes many topics of doing things in a straight and honest way.  And many topics which should be important to oneself such as tzedakah, not doing illegal activities etc fall under financial literacy as well.    It's an especially important topic in a frum community where we choose to send our kids to private schools even though many can't really afford it.

I believe Mesilah gives a course in a couple of the Lakewood mesivtas on personal finance and budgeting. Perhaps they should cover investing (and what is not considered an investment) as well.

Offline EJB

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #21 on: March 05, 2019, 09:02:37 AM »
I believe Mesilah gives a course in a couple of the Lakewood mesivtas on personal finance and budgeting. Perhaps they should cover investing (and what is not considered an investment) as well.

Currency 101: from Avios to bitcoin 😂

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #22 on: March 05, 2019, 09:12:39 AM »
My thoughts exactly.

One thing i can tell you is that I have seen numerous people misunderstand sugyos and issue wrong piskei halacha due to their lack of understanding of math and science. For many years people came to me in bais eliyahu and its successors to explain mathematical aspects of sugyos.

The poskim I interact with that are best able to accurately pasken  based on the scientific and mathematical metzius are actually not the ones that have a more extensive secular background; they are sometimes too confident in their understanding of the metzius. Nor is it those who prefer to be sheltered and arenít driven to get to the bottom of the science or math involved. It is those that have a relatively limited science or math background but have a quick grasp, know how to search out the experts in the field and how to ask the question (and how to listen), and have a relentless drive to get to the bottom of the metzius, picking up any concepts they need to help them get there. I know a couple of such poskim in Lakewood and am constantly impressed with how they are able to get to the crux of the issue to come to the correct psak.

Rav Shlomo Zalman seems to have had a similar mehalech from what I understand.

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #23 on: March 05, 2019, 09:16:14 AM »
What are you advocating? That everyone take math and science courses before learning halacha lemaaseh?
Obvious straw man
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline aygart

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #24 on: March 05, 2019, 09:18:44 AM »
The poskim I interact with that are best able to accurately pasken  based on the scientific and mathematical metzius are actually not the ones that have a more extensive secular background; they are sometimes too confident in their understanding of the metzius. Nor is it those who prefer to be sheltered and arenít driven to get to the bottom of the science or math involved. It is those that have a relatively limited science or math background but have a quick grasp, know how to search out the experts in the field and how to ask the question (and how to listen), and have a relentless drive to get to the bottom of the metzius, picking up any concepts they need to help them get there. I know a couple of such poskim in Lakewood and am constantly impressed with how they are able to get to the crux of the issue to come to the correct psak.

Rav Shlomo Zalman seems to have had a similar mehalech from what I understand.
How many of those have zero background in math and science from school?
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Online Miami

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #25 on: March 05, 2019, 09:39:07 AM »
I respectfully disagree. Its important but it doesn't belong in a yeshiva. A yeshiva isn't business school.

You'll ask me so why is it worse than math science...? I'll answer that those don't take away from the goal of a frum person. They're there for various reasons. To give more structure to the day of a child. To make the child sharper. And possibly also to qualify for government funding.

That's just my feelings about it.

ETA: Just to clarify a little. I feel like the math, science... isn't being taught to learn it. It's being taught for the reasons stated above. On the other hand if you're teaching financial literacy it's being taught for itself. Which I think is a problem.
Having been in yeshivas that teach a personal finance course as a math, I can say it is definitely needed. The number of people (in high school) who didn't even know how to write a check was surprising. Outside of English class it's probably the only thing you will be taught that actually affects your daily life

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #26 on: March 05, 2019, 09:54:40 AM »
Having been in yeshivas that teach a personal finance course as a math, I can say it is definitely needed. The number of people (in high school) who didn't even know how to write a check was surprising. Outside of English class it's probably the only thing you will be taught that actually affects your daily life

IINM @Danís LOR includes financial literacy as part of the chosson classes he gives (he has professional guests teach it).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Online whYME

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #27 on: March 05, 2019, 10:02:25 AM »
IINM @Danís LOR includes financial literacy as part of the chosson classes he gives (he has professional guests teach it).
I don't remember that when I was there

Offline Yard sale

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Re: Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #28 on: March 05, 2019, 10:08:12 AM »
How many of those have zero background in math and science from school?

Rav Shlomo Zalman seems to have had a similar mehalech from what I understand.

Offline Yard sale

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Re: PSA: Don't swipe recklessly for others
« Reply #29 on: March 05, 2019, 10:15:36 AM »
I believe Mesilah gives a course in a couple of the Lakewood mesivtas on personal finance and budgeting. Perhaps they should cover investing (and what is not considered an investment) as well.

I would also include a course in the history of vaccine development and rudimentary statistics (p-values etc.)
so they are educated enough to avoid the other major scam in the jewish world- anti-vaxx literature and ďstudiesĒ. ( In the interest of totally taking this thread OT 😀)