Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas

[yuneeq]

Lol but spelling is overrated. Seriously outlook has spell check, and I knew that was wrong when posting.. if this would be a professional communication it would never get through.. so they don't have an advantage there either.

Not trying to be offensive, but I feel that spelling poorly is like putting a post-it note on your forehead that says “Hey, I’m stupid”. So perhaps you only wear the post-it in front of friends and family, and not at work. But it’s not something I would be apathetic about.

[aygart]

Lakewood is full of people who had an extremely limited k-12 and 4 year college education, but they are Masters in their fields of parnasa. - be it insurance, accounting, law, computer science, marketing, design, the list is endless.

And equally full of people who are stuck in life because they could not overcome that barrier.

There are numerous skills in life which can easily be taught without formal secular classes which are not. I have come across many people who are hampered by their inability to express themselves. It takes them 4 or 5 tries to get their point across in way that people can understand what they are trying to say. This would prevent them from being a rebbe as well. There are ways to resolve this within the current system and some yeshivos do it and some not. This is not a separate issue from what I wrote before that there are some who can very easily say a sharfe vort but may be missing some of the basics of the sugyo.

[Yehuda57]

Not trying to be offensive, but I feel that spelling poorly is like putting a post-it note on your forehead that says “Hey, I’m stupid”. So perhaps you only wear the post-it in front of friends and family, and not at work. But it’s not something I would be apathetic about.

If, as he says, he knew he was making mistakes and ignored them because it was only DDF, he is disrespecting his audience and calling *us* stupid. If you don't deem us worthy of spellcheck, then we're probably not worthy of your genius altogether.

[aygart]

https://www.sefaria.org/Sefer_HaChinukh.258.5?lang=he

ומה שאמרו שהמודד את הקרקע בחבל לא ימד לאחד בימות החמה ולאחד בימות הגשמים, מפני שהחבל מתקצר בימות החמה. ומה שאמרו (שם קיז ב) שצריך כל אדם לדקדק הרבה במשיחת הקרקע, לפי שיש חלוקין הרבה במשיחת הקרקע בין ההר והגיא, ויש לעין בו גם כן בין העגולים והרבועים והאלכסונין. ועוד הרבה ענינים המתבארים בספרי חכמת החשבון וגימטריאות שיחלקו בין זוית נצבה לזוית נרוחת וזוית חדה, ואלו שלש צורותיהן (זוית נצבה, זוית נרוחת, וזוית חדה) ובין משלש שוה הצלעות והמשלש אשר שתי הצלעות בלבד שוות, והוא נקרא משלש שוה השוקים ובין משלש שאין צלע מכל צלעותיו שוות הנקרא המתחלף הצלעות, ובין מרבע רבוע שוה למרבע ארך, ומרבע מעין ומרבע דומה למעין, וכמה צדדין באלו לא יכיל קלף גדול לרב הצורות שעשו בזה בעלי חכמת התשברת והשעורין הנקראין אלהנדסה בענינים אלה. ומכל צד צריכין אנו להזהר הרבה במדידת הקרקעות.

[BerB]

And equally full of people who are stuck in life because they could not overcome that barrier.

There are numerous skills in life which can easily be taught without formal secular classes which are not. I have come across many people who are hampered by their inability to express themselves. It takes them 4 or 5 tries to get their point across in way that people can understand what they are trying to say. This would prevent them from being a rebbe as well. There are ways to resolve this within the current system and some yeshivos do it and some not. This is not a separate issue from what I wrote before that there are some who can very easily say a sharfe vort but may be missing some of the basics of the sugyo.

Do you believe that these deficiencies happen more commonly among Yeshiva students than public school students who do have a full secular education?

[ExGingi]

https://www.sefaria.org/Sefer_HaChinukh.258.5?lang=he

ומה שאמרו שהמודד את הקרקע בחבל לא ימד לאחד בימות החמה ולאחד בימות הגשמים, מפני שהחבל מתקצר בימות החמה. ומה שאמרו (שם קיז ב) שצריך כל אדם לדקדק הרבה במשיחת הקרקע, לפי שיש חלוקין הרבה במשיחת הקרקע בין ההר והגיא, ויש לעין בו גם כן בין העגולים והרבועים והאלכסונין. ועוד הרבה ענינים המתבארים בספרי חכמת החשבון וגימטריאות שיחלקו בין זוית נצבה לזוית נרוחת וזוית חדה, ואלו שלש צורותיהן (זוית נצבה, זוית נרוחת, וזוית חדה) ובין משלש שוה הצלעות והמשלש אשר שתי הצלעות בלבד שוות, והוא נקרא משלש שוה השוקים ובין משלש שאין צלע מכל צלעותיו שוות הנקרא המתחלף הצלעות, ובין מרבע רבוע שוה למרבע ארך, ומרבע מעין ומרבע דומה למעין, וכמה צדדין באלו לא יכיל קלף גדול לרב הצורות שעשו בזה בעלי חכמת התשברת והשעורין הנקראין אלהנדסה בענינים אלה. ומכל צד צריכין אנו להזהר הרבה במדידת הקרקעות.

So just like you aren't going to introduce courses in Shechita or Mikvaos, because as you have stated "a little knowledge is dangerous", so too, the appropriate study of geometry should be left out of the general yeshiva system, and acquired by those that need it, when they need it.

[aygart]

So just like you aren't going to introduce courses in Shechita or Mikvaos, because as you have stated "a little knowledge is dangerous", so too, the appropriate study of geometry should be left out of the general yeshiva system, and acquired by those that need it, when they need it.

Everything in life is a balance

To be clear though, my kids do not learn this in yeshiva. They learn it at home very regularly. I would be concerned over them teaching it in yeshiva for a number of reasons. Foremost among them that I would have no way of knowing if the teacher is adequately literate.
Either way, part of financial literacy is understanding that people need likes to feed their kids.

There are ways to add enough to have the tools to understand how to structure a calculation and the basics of geometry etc. without it being a full fledged course and avoiding many of the dangers of "a little knowledge". You seem to feel that I am advocating not to teach things which are taught בכל פרטיה ודקדוקיה but that is not the case.

[churnbabychurn]

If, as he says, he knew he was making mistakes and ignored them because it was only DDF, he is disrespecting his audience and calling *us* stupid. If you don't deem us worthy of spellcheck, then we're probably not worthy of your genius altogether.

+1

[aygart]

Do you believe that these deficiencies happen more commonly among Yeshiva students than public school students who do have a full secular education?

That is difficult to quantify. I think they happen more among yeshiva boys than among bais yakov girls. I think they happen more in the "yeshiva" crowd than among the modern orthodox.

[churnbabychurn]

Not trying to be offensive, but I feel that spelling poorly is like putting a post-it note on your forehead that says “Hey, I’m stupid”. So perhaps you only wear the post-it in front of friends and family, and not at work. But it’s not something I would be apathetic about.

I'm not at all apathetic about it. I don't make spelling mistakes in professional communications period.

[Yehuda57]

I'm not at all apathetic about it. I don't make spelling mistakes in professional communications period.

Lol

[churnbabychurn]

https://www.sefaria.org/Sefer_HaChinukh.258.5?lang=he

ומה שאמרו שהמודד את הקרקע בחבל לא ימד לאחד בימות החמה ולאחד בימות הגשמים, מפני שהחבל מתקצר בימות החמה. ומה שאמרו (שם קיז ב) שצריך כל אדם לדקדק הרבה במשיחת הקרקע, לפי שיש חלוקין הרבה במשיחת הקרקע בין ההר והגיא, ויש לעין בו גם כן בין העגולים והרבועים והאלכסונין. ועוד הרבה ענינים המתבארים בספרי חכמת החשבון וגימטריאות שיחלקו בין זוית נצבה לזוית נרוחת וזוית חדה, ואלו שלש צורותיהן (זוית נצבה, זוית נרוחת, וזוית חדה) ובין משלש שוה הצלעות והמשלש אשר שתי הצלעות בלבד שוות, והוא נקרא משלש שוה השוקים ובין משלש שאין צלע מכל צלעותיו שוות הנקרא המתחלף הצלעות, ובין מרבע רבוע שוה למרבע ארך, ומרבע מעין ומרבע דומה למעין, וכמה צדדין באלו לא יכיל קלף גדול לרב הצורות שעשו בזה בעלי חכמת התשברת והשעורין הנקראין אלהנדסה בענינים אלה. ומכל צד צריכין אנו להזהר הרבה במדידת הקרקעות.

Did you find a practical application for geometry? Those are hard to come by..

[churnbabychurn]

Do you believe that these deficiencies happen more commonly among Yeshiva students than public school students who do have a full secular education?

Exactly.. I don't believe there are necessarily more shlemazels amongst the non secular educated then the general educated populance.

[churnbabychurn]

The chasidim who don't speak English as a first language are at a significant disadvantage. But that is not an education issue.

[ExGingi]

Did you find a practical application for geometry? Those are hard to come by..

How about volume calculations for various Halachic reasons?

[churnbabychurn]

How about volume calculations for various Halachic reasons?

That's what I'm trying to say.. there is more practical applications of math and science in halacha then in most areas of business.

[aygart]

That's what I'm trying to say.. there is more practical applications of math and science in halacha then in most areas of business.

Which line of business doesn't involve math?

[ExGingi]

That's what I'm trying to say.. there is more practical applications of math and science in halacha then in most areas of business.

Are you sure that is what you're trying to say?

[mmgfarb]

[churnbabychurn]

Which line of business doesn't involve math?

I mean geometry. And business is typically very basic math.