Author Topic: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas  (Read 72576 times)

Offline shwarmabob

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #240 on: March 13, 2019, 09:49:04 AM »
What's broken about children being children? It's not normal for a 9th grader to be able to sit and learn all day.

What's the issue with learning math, English, and science?
We have been arguing about this for 200 years now.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #241 on: March 13, 2019, 09:54:22 AM »
No one said that children being children is "broken", but if one is complaining about "learning to waste time", that sounds like a problem that needs fixing.

And how isa solution?
Instead of learning to waste time, learn something useful like math, english, and science. What's wrong with this solution?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Definitions

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #242 on: March 13, 2019, 11:43:20 AM »
No one addressed that question in this thread. I posted similarly above, along with @mmgfarb. Just busy with semantics.
How can they sit for secular studies but not for religious studies? Ela Mai, they're not interested. So like @ExGingi  said that is something to be worked on. Although I think he was saying it's due to the teachers. I agree but I think it has much more to do with the students priorities.

Anyways regardless I'll say again what I believe to be true. The goal of a frum person is to become the best possible eved hashem. This purpose in life is not only when people are in the mood of it. It's 24/7/354/120. How exactly is learning secular studies furthering that goal in the most efficient way?
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #243 on: March 13, 2019, 11:50:50 AM »
Instead of learning to waste time, learn something useful like math, english, and science. What's wrong with this solution?

So if you have a leaky faucet, instead of repairing it, you'll pour the excess water into the neighbor's yard, to help the neighbor's weeds grow? What's wrong with this solution?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline avromie7

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #244 on: March 13, 2019, 11:54:56 AM »
So if you have a faucet that's leaky by design, instead of "repairing" it, you'll pour the excess water into your yard, to help the your grass grow? What's wrong with this solution?
FTFY I think this a much more accurate analogy of the reality.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline avromie7

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #245 on: March 13, 2019, 11:58:33 AM »
So if you have a leaky faucet, instead of repairing it, you'll pour the excess water into the neighbor's yard, to help the neighbor's weeds grow? What's wrong with this solution?
I think the disconnect here is your belief that teaching secular studies is inherently bad, while R' Reuven Feinstein believes that it's inherently good aside from the bitul torah issue.
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #246 on: March 13, 2019, 11:59:55 AM »
I think the disconnect here is your belief that teaching secular studies is inherently bad, while R' Reuven Feinstein believes that it's inherently good aside from the bitul torah issue.
Whenever you mention that I think of R' Akiva's משל with the fish.

And then I noticed this:
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline avromie7

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #247 on: March 13, 2019, 12:46:17 PM »
Whenever you mention that I think of R' Akiva's משל with the fish.

And then I noticed this:

Are you saying that no one should do anything all day except learn torah?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline ExGingi

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #248 on: March 13, 2019, 12:47:32 PM »
Are you saying that no one should do anything all day except learn torah?

Isn't that what we keep on asking for? What do you think we'll be doing as soon as we're out of Golus?

Quote
לא נתאוו החכמים והנביאים ימות המשיח, לא כדי שישלטו על כל העולם, ולא כדי שירדו בגויים, ולא כדי שינשאו אותם העמים, ולא כדי לאכול ולשתות ולשמוח, אלא כדי שיהיו פנויים בתורה וחכמתה, ולא יהיה להם נוגש ומבטל, כדי שיזכו לחיי העולם הבא, כמו שביארנו בהלכות תשובה.

ובאותו הזמן לא יהיה שם לא רעב ולא מלחמה, ולא קנאה ותחרות, שהטובה תהיה מושפעת הרבה, וכל המעדנים מצויים כעפר, ולא יהיה עסק כל העולם אלא לדעת את ה` בלבד, ולפיכך יהיו ישראל חכמים גדולים ויודעים דברים הסתומים וישיגו דעת בוראם כפי כוח האדם, שנאמר כי מלאה הארץ דעה את ה` כמים לים מכסים.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline avromie7

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #249 on: March 13, 2019, 12:49:33 PM »
Isn't that what we keep on asking for? What do you think we'll be doing as soon as we're out of Golus?
So why are you here on DDF? Why do you work you should be learning all day and all night?
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #250 on: March 13, 2019, 01:13:00 PM »
Many, but not all. Most Tri State Area mesivats are like in Israel, no secular.

Not sure where you got that from,  because I can name quite a few that do have secular - at least through 11th grade - Chofetz Chaim, Torah Vodaas, Torah Temimah, just to name a few.

Offline Yonah

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #251 on: March 13, 2019, 01:28:55 PM »
How can they sit for secular studies but not for religious studies? Ela Mai, they're not interested. So like @ExGingi  said that is something to be worked on. Although I think he was saying it's due to the teachers. I agree but I think it has much more to do with the students priorities.

Secular studies, generally speaking, are setup into multiple subject, none of them more than 45 minutes long. So you're learning something different every hour. In limudei kodesh, that same idea can be facilitated by breaking up the day with Halacha, Mussar, Tanach and not focusing so long on Gemara.

It's also not just about the material, but also time of day. When we had 'English' back in the day, we knew that we only had 2 hours left to the school day, we also had it after lunch, so most of us weren't hungry (I remember how 'focused' I was at 11:45 in the 3rd hour of Gemara). Some kids learn better in the morning, some better in the afternoon. Some kids take ADHD medication, which makes them able to better focus in the morning, and less in the afternoon when it wears off. Some kids are sleepy and ultimately wake up. In modern yeshivas, where the day is divided more or less equally, they alternate weeks between Kodesh and chol so that each kid gets them at different times of the day, and it breaks up the monotony of the schedule. (i.e. If there are 2 classes in the grade, Class 1 has English first Week A and Kodesh first in Week B, class 2 gets the opposite).




Offline CS1

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #252 on: March 13, 2019, 10:05:58 PM »
Separate issue, however related to overall education and knowing whom to trust:
 to teach teens and young couples how to be aware of common scams and to avoid this type of financial loss of all your savings: http://www.thelakewoodscoop.com/news/2019/03/frightening-young-lakewood-woman-loses-nearly-all-her-money-to-scam-photos-audio.html#more-200880
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Offline avromie7

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #253 on: March 13, 2019, 10:13:11 PM »
Not sure where you got that from,  because I can name quite a few that do have secular - at least through 11th grade - Chofetz Chaim, Torah Vodaas, Torah Temimah, just to name a few.
In Lakewood the overwhelming majority do not, when I was in high school about 10 years ago IIRC 90-95% did not
I wonder what people who type "u" instead of "you" do with all their free time.

Offline Denverite

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #254 on: March 14, 2019, 01:44:09 AM »
How can they sit for secular studies but not for religious studies? Ela Mai, they're not interested. So like @ExGingi  said that is something to be worked on. Although I think he was saying it's due to the teachers. I agree but I think it has much more to do with the students priorities.

Anyways regardless I'll say again what I believe to be true. The goal of a frum person is to become the best possible eved hashem. This purpose in life is not only when people are in the mood of it. It's 24/7/354/120. How exactly is learning secular studies furthering that goal in the most efficient way?

I actually totally agree with you that our first and foremost goal should be imparting in our children that we should always be working to be an Eved HaShem. I also agree that I don’t think teaching financial literacy will help prevent frum Jews from involving themselves in the types of financial schemes that started this thread (I still don’t feel comfortable calling them scams).  I think the bigger issue is that we don’t have clear and loud statements in our schools and community about how easy it is to give in to your weaknesses and human fallibilities surrounding financial issues. I think that if frum institutions addressed financial weakness in the same way they teach young people to stay far away from other temptations (like they teach about tznius and Yichud, explicitly explaining why these things are so important), people would fully understand the dangers.  Even now, people only seem scandalized and so sad for the money lost by so many good people, not at all a discussion about why the behavior is so wrong and so insidious to our spiritual well being. I don’t not participate in “easy money” schemes because I could lose money but because it would denigrate me as a person and bring me down the wrong path. Just like Torah leaders teach that you don’t not have an affair (or do any number of things to bring you to that point) because it could end badly for your marriage but because it is wrong and bad for the person doing it, they could address and teach about financial weakness in the same way.

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #255 on: March 14, 2019, 02:19:07 AM »
I actually totally agree with you that our first and foremost goal should be imparting in our children that we should always be working to be an Eved HaShem. I also agree that I don’t think teaching financial literacy will help prevent frum Jews from involving themselves in the types of financial schemes that started this thread (I still don’t feel comfortable calling them scams).  I think the bigger issue is that we don’t have clear and loud statements in our schools and community about how easy it is to give in to your weaknesses and human fallibilities surrounding financial issues. I think that if frum institutions addressed financial weakness in the same way they teach young people to stay far away from other temptations (like they teach about tznius and Yichud, explicitly explaining why these things are so important), people would fully understand the dangers.  Even now, people only seem scandalized and so sad for the money lost by so many good people, not at all a discussion about why the behavior is so wrong and so insidious to our spiritual well being. I don’t not participate in “easy money” schemes because I could lose money but because it would denigrate me as a person and bring me down the wrong path. Just like Torah leaders teach that you don’t not have an affair (or do any number of things to bring you to that point) because it could end badly for your marriage but because it is wrong and bad for the person doing it, they could address and teach about financial weakness in the same way.
The only problem with this is that there wasn't anything wrong with what the victims were doing.
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Offline mercaz1

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #256 on: March 14, 2019, 10:39:17 AM »
The only problem with this is that there wasn't anything wrong with what the victims were doing.

and a lot of double negatives

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #257 on: March 14, 2019, 11:28:37 AM »
The only problem with this is that there wasn't anything wrong with what the victims were doing.
Then why were we hearing about them being afraid of criminal prosecution?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mmgfarb

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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #258 on: March 14, 2019, 12:14:26 PM »
Then why were we hearing about them being afraid of criminal prosecution?
I meant halachically, although if it was illegal than I guess that would be a halachic problem as well. My point was that it's easy to say you wouldn't do anything that's "easy money" but it's hard to tell people not to do something that isn't necessarily problematic halachically just because you think it's wrong on a "hashkafic" level because you think a person should work for his money, especially if it allows someone to stay in learning for longer.
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Re: Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas
« Reply #259 on: March 14, 2019, 12:41:07 PM »
I meant halachically, although if it was illegal than I guess that would be a halachic problem as well. My point was that it's easy to say you wouldn't do anything that's "easy money" but it's hard to tell people not to do something that isn't necessarily problematic halachically just because you think it's wrong on a "hashkafic" level because you think a person should work for his money, especially if it allows someone to stay in learning for longer.
Probably more often than not, "easy money" will cause people to leave learning to dig themselves out of the hole they dug themselves into.
Feelings don't care about your facts