Adding Financial Literacy Courses In Yeshivas

[mmgfarb]

Someone making assumptions here? Did I say it's not possible? I said it's daunting. Let me know how you do with your own kids...

You said "How can one teach common sense?" And then you said "What are math and finances if not common sense?" I was just pointing out the inherent contradiction.

[ExGingi]

You said "How can one teach common sense?" And then you said "What are math and finances if not common sense?" I was just pointing out the inherent contradiction.

So I guess you're pointing out that this is a case of הוא מתיב לה, והוא מפרק לה. Teach some Chumash and Mishnayos properly, and you've taught common sense.

[mmgfarb]

So I guess you're pointing out that this is a case of הוא מתיב לה, והוא מפרק לה. Teach some Chumash and Mishnayos properly, and you've taught common sense.

I just don't think you'll be able to teach what kids need to know nowadays from chumash and mishnayos (or even gemara for that matter,) but I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

[ExGingi]

I just don't think you'll be able to teach what kids need to know nowadays from chumash and mishnayos (or even gemara for that matter,) but I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

Still waiting for you to respond to my challenge.

Here's a challenge:

Take the following line out of the mishna: ודבר שאין עושה ואוכל, ימכר, שנאמר (דברים, כב) והשבותו לו, ראה היאך תשיבנו לו and ask the average person (whoever that may be) what ראה היאך תשיבנו לו means here. Let us know the results. We can then proceed to the next part of the Mishna of מה יהא בדמים?

Someone who can properly explain those concepts, has a very strong foundation for modern financial literacy - probably much more than most high school graduates. (And will probably be a step ahead of the class at Accounting 101)

[AussieMan]

ראה היאך תשיבנו לו - therefore sell it?
What about depreciation due to inflation?

[Definitions]

ראה היאך תשיבנו לו - therefore sell it?
What about depreciation due to inflation?

Was there a real risk of inflation back then?

[S209]

Was there a real risk of inflation back then?

Sure. See the entire Perek Hazahav. Also, the countless times throughout the Gemara where it discusses fluctuating currency values, method of payments, etc.

I just don't think you'll be able to teach what kids need to know nowadays from chumash and mishnayos (or even gemara for that matter,) but I guess we can agree to disagree on that.

I STRONGLY disagree. May I suggest there are possibly Gemaros and Halachos you haven’t yet covered properly?

@aygart, as our resident posek, do you agree that there are lessons about modern day finances that cannot be gleaned from proper Torah study? I don’t consider this a Choshen Mishpat shayla

[mmgfarb]

If it's true, as people have mentioned up thread, that kids don't know how to write checks, then please explain to me where in the Torah it explains how to do that. And yes, @S209 I've been through the entire choshen mishpat.

[S209]

If it's true, as people have mentioned up thread, that kids don't know how to write checks, then please explain to me where in the Torah it explains how to do that. And yes, @S209 I've been through the entire choshen mishpat.

You are right about check-writing. But that is hardly grounds for a course, or even a teacher’s responsibility. Also, check-writing will soon be a thing of the past.

[S209]

If it's true, as people have mentioned up thread, that kids don't know how to write checks, then please explain to me where in the Torah it explains how to do that. And yes, @S209 I've been through the entire choshen mishpat.

And you don’t feel that practical modern day personal finance is comprehensively covered?

[mmgfarb]

You are right about check-writing. But that is hardly grounds for a course, or even a teacher’s responsibility. Also, check-writing will soon be a thing of the past.

That was just one example, not my basis for having a method of teaching people about fiscal responsibility.

[jj1000]

You are right about check-writing. But that is hardly grounds for a course, or even a teacher’s responsibility. Also, check-writing will soon be a thing of the past.

How about transferring funds between checking accounts online?

Using an excel doc?

CC vs debit card options now?

Using programs like mint?

You said everything and he gave an example that you agree is not covered, so clearly you concede your point of everything.

[AussieMan]

Torah doesn't teach math or Financial Literacy, but you definitely need working knowledge of these subjects to understand any parts of Torah.
As such, even a school which doesn't want to teach "Choil" can include these important concepts as part of their Jewish studies.
(@ExGingi - this is similar but not exactly the same as heilike numerin, where you are using Torah as a platform for teaching math).

Parsha/Divrei Torah can be used as a platform to teach public speaking, how to say a Sicha at a Shabbos meal, etc.
A lot really depends on the teacher creativity and the student desire to learn life skills.

[mmgfarb]

And you don’t feel that practical modern day personal finance is comprehensively covered?

No. By the time someone would have a good enough understanding of halacha and Torah to be able to apply that to the modern day fiscal world, he would be past the point where he would have needed the information. Especially with the way yeshivos are now where most of the learning is abstract, and most of the emphasis is not on halacha, it's hard to take the concepts that you learn and apply them to your everyday life. I'm not saying we shouldn't be better in how we teach Torah and halacha, I'm saying that it's our responsibility to set kids up to succeed in the modern world. We need to give kids a solid foundation in emuna, Torah, halacha, etc, and also teach them how to succeed in the modern financial world. I don't understand why people have such a strong aversion to the idea of teaching a fiscal responsibility course. Is it because it will take away time from limud Torah? You think Hashem would rather the kid learn during that short amount of time but then put his whole family into debt for years because he doesn't understand how anything works?
Besides, even if you're right that everything can be gained from proper limud Torah, clearly the way our system is right now, we're not doing it correctly. What would be easier, setting up financial literacy courses in schools or completely overhauling our entire way of limud Torah? It's as if you'd all rather have kids continue to grow up financially clueless than have teach them anything about the world that doesn't come from a mishna. We have a problem in our community, the amount of linud torah being done today isn't it, it's our inability to mesh torah judiasm with the modern world in the correct way.

[ExGingi]

If it's true, as people have mentioned up thread, that kids don't know how to write checks, then please explain to me where in the Torah it explains how to do that. And yes, @S209 I've been through the entire choshen mishpat.

Since when is knowing how to write checks part of financial literacy? That's a technical skill.

However, knowing what a check is, is definitely financial literacy. And I would argue that anyone who learned Yeshivishe Masechtos would have a much better grasp of what a check is, than any high-school graduate that took a course in financial literacy.

[mmgfarb]

Since when is knowing how to write checks part of financial literacy? That's a technical skill.

However, knowing what a check is, is definitely financial literacy. And I would argue that anyone who learned Yeshivishe Masechtos would have a much better grasp of what a check is, than any high-school graduate that took a course in financial literacy.

That doesn't matter, clearly it hadn't helped has it?

[aygart]

Sure. See the entire Perek Hazahav. Also, the countless times throughout the Gemara where it discusses fluctuating currency values, method of payments, etc.I STRONGLY disagree. May I suggest there are possibly Gemaros and Halachos you haven’t yet covered properly?

@aygart, as our resident posek, do you agree that there are lessons about modern day finances that cannot be gleaned from proper Torah study? I don’t consider this a Choshen Mishpat shayla

I distinguish between cannot and are not. It is unlikely that a typical high school kid will get enough from his Torah studies alone. Bringing the abstract to a practical discussion (per @mmgfarb ) that would be a reason to make sure that they do learn it on some level.

Using Torah as a springboard to teach it is a questionable practice since it is somewhat against רבי צדוק אומר, אל תעשם עטרה להתגדל בהם, ולא קרדום לחפור בהם

[mmgfarb]

I distinguish between cannot and are not. It is unlikely that a typical high school kid will get enough from his Torah studies alone.

Exactly, thank you.

[aygart]

Exactly, thank you.

To be clear though, my kids do not learn this in yeshiva. They learn it at home very regularly. I would be concerned over them teaching it in yeshiva for a number of reasons. Foremost among them that I would have no way of knowing if the teacher is adequately literate.
Either way, part of financial literacy is understanding that people need likes to feed their kids.

[jj1000]

To be clear though, my kids do not learn this in yeshiva. They learn it at home very regularly. I would be concerned over them teaching it in yeshiva for a number of reasons. Foremost among them that I would have no way of knowing if the teacher is adequately literate.
Either way, part of financial literacy is understanding that people need likes to feed their kids.

That's why someone has to create an approved financial literacy course for yeshivas. Maybe a DD Agudah course