Poll

Who are you leaning towards?

Likud
5 (17.2%)
Blue and White
0 (0%)
Shas
0 (0%)
Charedi Parties(UTJ Aguda)
15 (51.7%)
Labor
2 (6.9%)
Zeut
1 (3.4%)
Meretz
0 (0%)
Yisroel Bateinu
0 (0%)
New Right (Bennet, Shaked)
1 (3.4%)
Kahane Parties
5 (17.2%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: April 09, 2019, 05:19:44 AM

Author Topic: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)  (Read 225797 times)

Offline YitzyS

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #860 on: February 11, 2021, 09:34:15 AM »
Please enlighten us, what's wrong with zionism?
Here is a transcript of a schmooze given by Rav Dovid Soloveitchik zt"l about 8 years ago. It was widely circulated around Eretz Yisroel at the time, and yeshivos all over the county gave it out. I know it's long, but it's extremely enlightening, and until I read this, I did not understand the Brisker outlook of Zionism.


 








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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #861 on: February 11, 2021, 09:36:43 AM »
I heard an interview today with Porush on Kol Baramah. He was being asked about this - Charedim abandoning gimmel and voting for Smotrich/Ben Gvir.
He first dismissed it out of hand, saying that every election cycle there is talk about charedim moving to Likud or Bennet and there is even polling indicating that and it never plays out (a better interviewer would have asked here about the mayoral elections in Beit Shemesh, but I digress)
They followed up and said - that's different - to vote Likud or Bennet you really have to put your frumkeit on the side, but this is a true dati party.
He responded that anyone who feels מושמד as a charedi will understand that they need to vote for gimmel. Smotrich won't take care of you - he will take care of bnei akiva, not charedim (he ignored the question as to why he couldn't care for both). He added, if anything there are dati leumi/chardalniks who empathize with the plight of the charedim as an oppressed people and will vote gimmel in solidarity.

I honestly find the argument to be so weak - vote for us because you are an oppressed victim and we are the only ones who will defend you. Such a negative propaganda based campaign.

I think gimmel has 3 sets of voters:
1. Those who ideologically are in line with the party
2. Those who fear the propaganda and think without the party, the state will raid them at night and shmad their children
3. Those who are reluctant to vote against the gedolim and fear going up to shamayim and having to answer why they didn't put their lot with the charedim ldvar hashem (for the record I'm part of this group)

I wonder what percentage fit into group 2 and group 3 and at what point the grip will be loosened and they will start to lose those voters in large numbers

Then there are those that consider themselves Lubavitchers, and will therefore not align themselves with any party, and try to follow the instruction to vote for "המפלגה החרדית ביותר" and will therefore vote Gimmel, while others might see Smotritch/Ben Gvir as more fitting that description, while others might find Shas more befitting of that description.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Ergel

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #862 on: February 11, 2021, 09:44:04 AM »
Please enlighten us, what's wrong with zionism?
If it wasn't clear, I meant religious zionism
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #863 on: February 11, 2021, 09:51:42 AM »
If it wasn't clear, I meant religious zionism

I suggest you read http://www.daat.ac.il/daat/history/tnuot/yahadut-2.htm it is spelled out there better than I might be able to convey it.

AFAIK א. גיטלין is a pseudonym used by Hagaon Uriel Zimmer A"H. Rumor has it that this was written with the encouragement of the Rebbe.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2021, 12:01:22 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #864 on: February 11, 2021, 09:52:14 AM »
If it wasn't clear, I meant religious zionism
What is religious about zionism?
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #865 on: February 11, 2021, 09:54:43 AM »
What is religious about zionism?

Well said. I am sure everyone 'round here is familiar with the famous line of the רס"ג
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Ergel

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #866 on: February 11, 2021, 10:24:13 AM »
What is religious about zionism?
Have you read Tanach? A deep desire for the land of Israel is something very deeply rooted in our religion.

I don't think my definition of zionism is what is being addressed in any of these articles/kuntresim
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #867 on: February 11, 2021, 10:27:43 AM »
Have you read Tanach? A deep desire for the land of Israel is something very deeply rooted in our religion.

I don't think my definition of zionism is what is being addressed in any of these articles/kuntresim
What does a deep desire for the land have to do with zionism?
It will be difficult for anyone to discuss your top secret definition of zionism without proper security clearance. ::)
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline AsherO

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #868 on: February 11, 2021, 11:01:43 AM »
AFAIK א. גיטלין is a pseudonym used by Hgaon Uriel Zimmer A"H. Rumor has it that this was written with the encouragement of the Rebbe.

Found this:

https://www.amazon.com/Torah-Judaism-State-Israel-Uriel-Zimmer/dp/B0007IW2DS

And in English, poor PDF quality:
https://www.truetorahjews.org/images/torah_judaism_and_the_state_of_israel.pdf
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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #869 on: February 11, 2021, 12:03:25 PM »
Found this:

https://www.amazon.com/Torah-Judaism-State-Israel-Uriel-Zimmer/dp/B0007IW2DS

And in English, poor PDF quality:
https://www.truetorahjews.org/images/torah_judaism_and_the_state_of_israel.pdf

I was unaware of the fact that it was published in English too. Was it his own translation? If yes did he translate it to any of other 8 languages in which he was fluent?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Moshe123

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #870 on: February 11, 2021, 12:37:31 PM »
I heard an interview today with Porush on Kol Baramah. He was being asked about this - Charedim abandoning gimmel and voting for Smotrich/Ben Gvir.
He first dismissed it out of hand, saying that every election cycle there is talk about charedim moving to Likud or Bennet and there is even polling indicating that and it never plays out (a better interviewer would have asked here about the mayoral elections in Beit Shemesh, but I digress)
They followed up and said - that's different - to vote Likud or Bennet you really have to put your frumkeit on the side, but this is a true dati party.
He responded that anyone who feels מושמד as a charedi will understand that they need to vote for gimmel. Smotrich won't take care of you - he will take care of bnei akiva, not charedim (he ignored the question as to why he couldn't care for both). He added, if anything there are dati leumi/chardalniks who empathize with the plight of the charedim as an oppressed people and will vote gimmel in solidarity.

I honestly find the argument to be so weak - vote for us because you are an oppressed victim and we are the only ones who will defend you. Such a negative propaganda based campaign.

I think gimmel has 3 sets of voters:
1. Those who ideologically are in line with the party
2. Those who fear the propaganda and think without the party, the state will raid them at night and shmad their children
3. Those who are reluctant to vote against the gedolim and fear going up to shamayim and having to answer why they didn't put their lot with the charedim ldvar hashem (for the record I'm part of this group)

I wonder what percentage fit into group 2 and group 3 and at what point the grip will be loosened and they will start to lose those voters in large numbers

I like your number 3. For these people (Americans etc.), Reb Chaim is a very strong tool.

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #871 on: February 11, 2021, 12:55:11 PM »
what percentage fit into group 2 and group 3 and at what point the grip will be loosened and they will start to lose those voters in large numbers
There are definitely some. Time will tell if it’s 10k or 100k.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Ergel

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #872 on: February 11, 2021, 02:12:11 PM »
What does a deep desire for the land have to do with zionism?
It will be difficult for anyone to discuss your top secret definition of zionism without proper security clearance. ::)
My understand of religious zionism is the movement to return to the holy land as a kiyum of the mitzvah d'oraisah (according to most rishonim) of yishuv haaretz and kiyum of divrei haneviim to return and prosper in eretz yisroel and to do that with our own state in order to preserve self determination and help with the stability of said return
Life isn't about checking the boxes. Nobody cares.

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #873 on: February 11, 2021, 02:30:36 PM »
My understand of religious zionism is the movement to return to the holy land as a kiyum of the mitzvah d'oraisah
Very few (Satmer?) argue with that
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #874 on: February 11, 2021, 03:02:32 PM »
If there was any question that the Israeli DOJ prosecution is infinitely more corrupt than Bibbi here they are lying in court again

https://twitter.com/mcl_bgn/status/1359877246698336259
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #875 on: February 11, 2021, 03:05:26 PM »
Very few (Satmer?) argue with that
Yup. It is the rest that is contentious.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #876 on: February 11, 2021, 03:19:05 PM »
Very few (Satmer?) argue with that

There are many that don't hold that there is such a Mitzvah s'Oraisa.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #877 on: February 11, 2021, 03:41:13 PM »
If there was any question that the Israeli DOJ prosecution is infinitely more corrupt than Bibbi here they are lying in court again

https://twitter.com/netanelgla/status/1359957842942447617
There are many that don't hold that there is such a Mitzvah s'Oraisa.
True. But few don’t see it as a positive inyan.
״וזה כלל גדול: שישנא אדם כל דבר שקר. וכל מה שיוסיף שנאה לדרכי השקר – יוסיף אהבה לתורה.״ - אורחות צדיקים

Offline Ergel

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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #878 on: February 11, 2021, 03:47:31 PM »
There are many that don't hold that there is such a Mitzvah s'Oraisa.
{citation needed}
(Not being counted among the taryag is not a raayah)
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Re: 2019-2021 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #879 on: February 11, 2021, 03:57:52 PM »
{citation needed}
(Not being counted among the taryag is not a raayah)

Huh? You're asking for a citation that something doesn't exist?

How about you bring citations from sifrei Halacha (Rambam, Tur, Rif, Shulchan Oruch, etc.) that it is a מצוות עשה דאורייתא?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan