Poll

Who are you leaning towards?

Likud
5 (17.2%)
Blue and White
0 (0%)
Shas
0 (0%)
Charedi Parties(UTJ Aguda)
15 (51.7%)
Labor
2 (6.9%)
Zeut
1 (3.4%)
Meretz
0 (0%)
Yisroel Bateinu
0 (0%)
New Right (Bennet, Shaked)
1 (3.4%)
Kahane Parties
5 (17.2%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: April 09, 2019, 05:19:44 AM

Author Topic: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)  (Read 240934 times)

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1700 on: February 21, 2023, 10:29:56 AM »
Today's Financial Times.


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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1701 on: February 22, 2023, 09:20:05 AM »
Ouch.





Edit: I love that concluding paragraph. The court in the past "did not prevent its past success." That also suggests that these reforms "are targeted at objectives other than the ostensible ones." I guess, whatever the court did indeed prevent, right?
« Last Edit: February 22, 2023, 09:26:38 AM by mevinyavin »
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Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1702 on: February 26, 2023, 10:23:16 AM »
Horrifying op-ed in WaPo today. Does the writer even realize that what he is accusing the right of, the left ACTUALLY has been doing to those of the right they didn't approve of (mainly, the religious in their various shades) for many years? Why does he think the right feels compelled to do this in the first place?


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Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

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Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1706 on: March 01, 2023, 06:43:59 PM »
This title made me laugh pretty hard.


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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1707 on: March 02, 2023, 12:44:29 AM »
This title made me laugh pretty hard.


I'm done with the Times of Israel, they used to be somewhat impartial, though since the new gov came into power they've gone hard left

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1708 on: March 02, 2023, 09:39:25 AM »
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/368174

Quote
Civil disobedience is a cherished right in democracies and dictatorships, although the stakes in expressing that right in dictatorships are riskier and graver. It allows a citizen to proclaim his or her dissatisfaction with a governmental policy that so offends the conscience that he cannot sit idly by. Instead, the dedicated denizen takes to the streets, breaks the law and is willing to suffer the consequences for doing so.

Thus, we are witness in Israel to demonstrations (relatively small in comparison to the population, and even the number of voters the opposition attracted in the last election) that block streets and highways, disturb people’s lives and constitute a blatant attempt to intimidate the government into not implementing the policies for which it was elected.

Yet, a critical aspect of civil disobedience seems to be lost on both demonstrators and the government. By definition, and here I cite from the Encyclopedia Britannica, “the civil disobedient, finding legitimate avenues of change blocked or non-existent, feels obligated by a higher extra legal principle to break some specific law. It is because acts associated with civil disobedience are considered crimes, however, and known by actor and public alike to be punishable, that such acts serve as a protest. By submitting to punishment, the civil disobedient hopes to set a moral example that will provoke the majority or the government into effecting meaningful political, social, or economic change.”

We hear a lot about the right of civil disobedience in Israel – and almost nothing of the punishment that is due such protesters and for which, ostensibly, they are willing to break the law and lose their freedom. National Security Minister Itamar Ben Gvir’s decision on Wednesday to order the police to break up the protests that blocked road and highways is long overdue and the meager number of arrests that have been made are sad proof of the government’s unwillingness to fulfill its side of the civil disobedience bargain: arrest the demonstrators who break the law even as they pay attention to what the demonstrators are saying.
Civil disobedience without arrests is anarchy, and anarchy is the enemy of democracy.

It is axiomatic that the civil disobedient is a minority of the society trying to enforce his views on the majority. It is a failure of democracy – and an insult to the law-abiding public – that protesters are allowed to break the law with impunity. Blocking highways is a crime – go ahead, you try it because you don’t like something the government, right or left, is doing. It should be prosecuted vigorously and the convicted should spend at least a week in jail. They should put their liberty where their mouth is.

Worse, in Israel’s context, the double standard that pertains is most execrable, disgraceful and unbecoming a moral and just society. The demonstrators against the expulsion from Gush Katif were hastily beaten and jailed, and some for weeks and months without charges. Somehow this highly- acclaimed, vaunted right of protest (the “linchpin of democracy,” we are lectured) did not apply to them. The reason is obvious: they were, after all, just religious right-wingers trying to protect thousands of settlers from a grievous, tangible injury (and protect the nation from an irredentist enemy that would use its gifted territory as a springboard for rockets and missiles to be launched against Israel). They were not secular left-wingers protesting amorphous and contrived “threats to democracy” implicit in… what?

Depriving the Supreme Court justices of the right to choose their successors?

Limiting the Court’s jurisdiction to cases and controversies, not political matters?

Restoring the balance between the various branches of the government?

Nevertheless, the Gush Katif protesters were treated mercilessly and pilloried in the media, even as the so-called protectors of democracy are being coddled.

The disparity in treatment is per se proof of the necessity of judicial reform.
What has been lost in the media maelstrom that has produced a deluge of hypocrisy is that there are other cherished rights in a democracy in addition to the right to protest. Here are some:
there is a right of free passage. Each citizen has the right to move freely in society and not have his way obstructed by others.
There is a right of commerce. Each citizen has the right to go to work, earn money, and support his family, without having that right encroached upon by people with a political grievance.
There is a right of free association, to meet friends and family in an organized fashion and not be impeded by those who are over-enthused and overwrought by the esoterica of the appropriate balance of power in a democratic government.
The right of protest is not superior to the right of free movement, the right of commerce, and the right of free association. They are all cherished rights. Those who want to take off from work, stand on the side of the road, wave flags and scream about democracy and the end of the world are welcome to do so. Those who block roads and highways and thus interfere with people who wish to attend a funeral, see a doctor, visit friends and family, go to work or simply enjoy the sights of our beautiful G-d-given country? Well, those people should be unceremoniously arrested, prosecuted and incarcerated if convicted. The roads and highways do not belong to them and should be cleared of these malcontents. That too is democracy.

Needless to say, a hallmark of democracy is also heeding the results of an election. Those who claim that the judicial reforms were sprung on an unknowing nation are simply lying through their teeth. There are no two more level-headed politicians in Israel that Yariv Levin and Simcha Rothman. Their reform proposals have been discussed for several election cycles now. I personally heard them speak about them during the most recent campaign. Those who claim they are new were simply not listening, which, in a polarized society, is a big part of the problem.
The right of civil disobedience is fundamental to a democratic society. But so is the obligation to protect the rights of non-protesters, enforce the law, clear the roads and highways, and jail the lawbreakers. Those who truly believe in democracy know that. Those who don’t will continue to cry about democracy when what concerns them most is loss of their undemocratic and unelected power base. They will generate shrill headlines about “the right of protest” and willfully ignore the rightful consequences of protest. Whatever it is they are fighting to save, it is not democracy.
The politicians in opposition know better. They should so inform their minions – of freedoms, rights and consequences. That would be a public service. And they – most of whom have also called for judicial reforms in the last decade – should spell out in detail what they mean, negotiate in committee, make suggestions, vote for the bill if they like it and vote against if they don’t.
That is democracy. It is not just the right of civil disobedience, which is just one right among many. Let the government enforce the law uniformly, which is the only way to ward off true anarchy and worse. And let the government advance the reform bills and vote on them, quickly but judiciously. We have real enemies out there. Let’s fight them, not each other.
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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1711 on: March 02, 2023, 06:24:25 PM »
stupid article.
I could have told you that just by seeing the site name :P

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1713 on: March 05, 2023, 06:22:18 AM »
By Michael R. Bloomberg

(New York Times) --

In more than 20 years of public life, I have steadfastly supported Israel and its people in both word and deed, including by building medicalfacilities there, co-founding a leadership center, supporting its innovative local programs and funding other good causes. I have never gotten involved in its domestic politics or criticized its government initiatives. But my love for Israel, my respect for its people and my concern about its future are now leading me to speak out against the current government’s attempt to effectively abolish the nation’s independent judiciary.

Under the new coalition’s proposal, a simple majority of the Knesset could overrule the nation’s Supreme Court and run roughshod over individual rights, including on matters such as speech and press freedoms, equal rights for minorities and voting rights. The Knesset could even go as far as to declare that the laws it passes are unreviewable by the judiciary, a move that calls to mind Richard Nixon’s infamous phrase “When the president does it, that means that it is not illegal.” Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s government is courting disaster by trying to claim that same power, imperiling Israel’s alliances around the world, its security in the region, its economy at home and the very democracy upon which the country was built.

The economic damage is already being felt, as the pummeling of the shekel has showed. A broad swath of business leaders and investors have spoken out against the government’s proposal, publicly and privately. And in a disturbing sign, some people have already begun pulling money out of the country and re-evaluating their plans for future growth there. As the owner of a global company, I don’t blame them.

Companies and investors place enormous value on strong and independent judicial systems because courts help protect them — not only against crime and corruption but also government overreach. Just as important, they protect what their employees value most: individual rights and freedoms.

Companies are in a global competition for talent. So are countries. The best and brightest want to live in countries where they can be assured they will not be persecuted or discriminated against because of what they believe or whom they love. Israel’s commitment to those legal protections played a crucial role in its development as a so-called start-up nation, able to compete with Silicon Valley and other tech centers for high-skilled workers.

In fact, the extraordinary rise in Israel’s economic standing over the last generation may be Mr. Netanyahu’s greatest achievement. It’s fair to say that no prime minister has done more to transform its economy into a global powerhouse. Yet unless he changes course, Mr. Netanyahu risks throwing all that progress — and his own hard-earned legacy — away. The economic damage could make the cost being paid by the United Kingdom for Brexit look like bubkes.

But it’s not just the economy, of course. Israel’s security is based partly on a relationship with the United States built on shared values — freedom, equality, democracy — that can only be sustained by a commitment to the rule of law, including an independent judiciary capable of upholding it. If Israel retreats from that long-term commitment and moves its model of governance toward one that mirrors those of authoritarian countries, it risks weakening its ties to the United States and other free nations.

That would be a devastating loss for Israel’s security, harm prospects for a peaceful resolution of the Palestinian conflict and could even imperil the future of the Jewish homeland. It would also undermine the deep attachment millions of people around the world feel toward the country, often because of the pride our parents instilled in us not only for its Jewish character but also for its strong commitment to freedom.

In the United States, our founding fathers’ insistence on checks and balances to control the tyrannical tendencies of majorities was part of their genius. Our Constitution is not perfect — no law is — but its many checks and balances have been essential to protecting and advancing fundamental rights and maintaining national stability. It was only through those safeguards that the United States has managed to withstand extreme shocks to our democracy in recent years — including a disgraceful attempt to prevent the peaceful transfer of power — without a catastrophic fracturing.

In withstanding those shocks, the United States also has had a luxury that Israel does not: friendly neighbors on our borders. We could afford some painful national divisions without fearing that our neighbors might exploit them militarily. Israel cannot. It is in one of the world’s most dangerous neighborhoods, facing threats from Iran and others that Mr. Netanyahu rightly calls existential. The more divided it is at home, the weaker it appears to its enemies.

Countries bordered by external enemies have even greater need to seek internal compromise, and it is my fervent hope that Mr. Netanyahu will convince his coalition of the need to heed President Isaac Herzog’s plea to pull back and slow down.

In 2014, when the Federal Aviation Administration prohibited U.S. airlines from flying to Israel after a Hamas rocket landed near Ben-Gurion airport, I boarded an El Al flight, never fearing any danger. Israel takes extraordinary measures to ensure the security of airline passengers, and it correctly argued that banning flights amounted to a capitulation to Hamas that would effectively close the country’s economy, given air travel is the only practical way to get in and out for nearly all travelers. I wanted to stand with Israel against Hamas, by highlighting the safety of travel to Israel and urging the Obama administration to reverse course — which it soon did, to its credit.

Greeting me on the tarmac that day was Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. He thanked me for my support, and I thanked him for Israel’s support of New York City and the United States after the Sept. 11 attacks. Close allies bound together by shared values stand together in times of need — not only to support each other but to reaffirm the inviolable obligations we have to defend those values. And that is why I am standing up again now.

Michael R. Bloomberg is the founder of Bloomberg and Bloomberg Philanthropies and served as mayor of New York from 2002 to 2013.

The Times is committed to publishing a diversity of letters to the editor. We’d like to hear what you think about this or any of our articles. Here are some tips. And here’s our email: letters@nytimes.com.

Follow The New York Times Opinion section on Facebook, Twitter (@NYTopinion) and Instagram.

The founder of Bloomberg and Bloomberg Philanthropies and the mayor of New York from 2002 to 2013.

Click Here to see the story as it appeared on the New York Times website.

Copyright 2023 The New York Times Company
-0- Mar/05/2023 11:19 GMT

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1714 on: March 05, 2023, 08:09:09 AM »
He focused directly at one aspect of the reform and seems right about that. If the purpose is checks and balances then an ability to override with a simple majority undermines that.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1715 on: March 05, 2023, 09:19:08 AM »
He focused directly at one aspect of the reform and seems right about that. If the purpose is checks and balances then an ability to override with a simple majority undermines that.
Quite. I don't think anyone disagrees, which is an important aspect of the dialogue that the media, and the pundits on BOTH sides of the equation, are (by-and-large) ignoring.
The issue at hand is that the setup right now, as is, is also without checks and balances: this time, on behalf of the court itself. The court has run roughshod over the government and the government has no way to check them. Even the people have no say: the government elects its own members and is happy to interpret the law in ways that have shocked almost everyone.
Here's a few choice quotes from Bloomberg:
Quote
The best and brightest want to live in countries where they can be assured they will not be persecuted or discriminated against because of what they believe or whom they love.
Correct.
Quote
Israel’s commitment to those legal protections...
Incorrect. The court is committed only in forcing its ideology on everyone, and strips protection from many who simply want to be left alone. To bring one example of many: when a religious group wants to throw an event in which men and women sit separately (and it was an entirely religious event), the court forbade separate seating, requiring them either to cancel it or to let mixed seating instead.
Quote
If Israel retreats from that long-term commitment and moves its model of governance toward one that mirrors those of authoritarian countries, it risks weakening its ties to the United States and other free nations.
The right is tired of being labeled authoritarian only when they are trying to live as they see fit, and being trodden on when the left is in power and acts in authoritarian ways. This blatant double standard, as seen clearly in the rulings that the Supreme Court issues, is precisely what requires some kind of balance.

What the left should be doing is joining the dialogue (especially Lapid and Yaalon, who are vocally leading demonstrations now but both expressed support for court reform in the past) and telling the government how the court can be reformed while restoring the checks and balances back to where they should be, instead of just moving the imbalance somewhere else. After all, we do understand that the right can lose the government next round. If they do, would we want the government to be capable of whatever they want?
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Echo chambers are boring and don't contribute much to deeper thinking and understanding!

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1716 on: March 05, 2023, 09:24:25 AM »
https://www.ynetnews.com/article/syxdkzmyn
Prof. Yisrael Aumann, who was awarded Nobel Prize in Economics in 2005, says that 'unacceptable' intervention of judiciary system in everyday life of Israelis is 'harmful,' despite opposing view of many of his peers

Lots of good stuff in here.
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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1717 on: March 05, 2023, 09:58:42 AM »
He focused directly at one aspect of the reform and seems right about that. If the purpose is checks and balances then an ability to override with a simple majority undermines that.

The two questions I would pose to Mr. Bloomberg (and Mr. Summers, and Professor Rogoff, and many others) are:

1. Are you fully aware of the current status in Israel as it relates to checks and balances and human rights?

2. Did you read the actual proposed bill?
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1718 on: March 05, 2023, 04:02:40 PM »
Quite. I don't think anyone disagrees, which is an important aspect of the dialogue that the media, and the pundits on BOTH sides of the equation, are (by-and-large) ignoring.
The issue at hand is that the setup right now, as is, is also without checks and balances: this time, on behalf of the court itself. etc. Etc. Etc.


What the left should be doing is joining the dialogue (especially Lapid and Yaalon, who are vocally leading demonstrations now but both expressed support for court reform in the past) and telling the government how the court can be reformed while restoring the checks and balances back to where they should be, instead of just moving the imbalance somewhere else. After all, we do understand that the right can lose the government next round. If they do, would we want the government to be capable of whatever they want?

The two questions I would pose to Mr. Bloomberg (and Mr. Summers, and Professor Rogoff, and many others) are:

1. Are you fully aware of the current status in Israel as it relates to checks and balances and human rights?

2. Did you read the actual proposed bill?

They are definitely not familiar with the intricacies of the Israeli system and almost certainly did not read the bill itself.

That said, the reform is absolutely needed, but an ability to override with a simple majority really is overreach and undermines the good arguments they are making for reform. My presumption is that it was put in there to be stripped away in negotiations. This was a miscalculation since it gives credibility to the claims that the idea is to gut the courts rather than to create checks and balances. This credibility allows them to say they won't even negotiate.
Feelings don't care about your facts

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1719 on: March 05, 2023, 05:02:46 PM »
They are definitely not familiar with the intricacies of the Israeli system and almost certainly did not read the bill itself.

That said, the reform is absolutely needed, but an ability to override with a simple majority really is overreach and undermines the good arguments they are making for reform. My presumption is that it was put in there to be stripped away in negotiations. This was a miscalculation since it gives credibility to the claims that the idea is to gut the courts rather than to create checks and balances. This credibility allows them to say they won't even negotiate.

Here is a link to the proposed override clause: https://fs.knesset.gov.il/25/law/25_lst_1335836.docx

It says that the Supreme Court can strike down laws only unanimously, and that the Knesset can TEMPORARILY override that ability, with the override expiring two years after the next Knesset is elected (unless that Knesset decides to extend the override, in which case it becomes permanent). The argument is that if the public doesn't like the override they will express it in the next election.

A proposed alternative was to simply not allow the Supreme Court to strike down laws (a power that was never granted to them in the first place).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan