Poll

Who are you leaning towards?

Likud
5 (17.2%)
Blue and White
0 (0%)
Shas
0 (0%)
Charedi Parties(UTJ Aguda)
15 (51.7%)
Labor
2 (6.9%)
Zeut
1 (3.4%)
Meretz
0 (0%)
Yisroel Bateinu
0 (0%)
New Right (Bennet, Shaked)
1 (3.4%)
Kahane Parties
5 (17.2%)

Total Members Voted: 29

Voting closed: April 09, 2019, 05:19:44 AM

Author Topic: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)  (Read 178372 times)

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1720 on: March 05, 2023, 05:23:50 PM »
Here is a link to the proposed override clause: https://fs.knesset.gov.il/25/law/25_lst_1335836.docx

It says that the Supreme Court can strike down laws only unanimously, and that the Knesset can TEMPORARILY override that ability, with the override expiring two years after the next Knesset is elected (unless that Knesset decides to extend the override, in which case it becomes permanent). The argument is that if the public doesn't like the override they will express it in the next election.

A proposed alternative was to simply not allow the Supreme Court to strike down laws (a power that was never granted to them in the first place).
Are you trying to make it better or worse?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1721 on: March 05, 2023, 05:25:43 PM »
Are you trying to make it better or worse?

I am not trying anything. Just stating facts.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1722 on: March 05, 2023, 05:48:25 PM »
I am not trying anything. Just stating facts.
Limiting the ability to unanimous decisions seems overboard and gives credibility to the detractors. In the US model of checks and balances the court protects against the tyranny the majority. These aspects of the reform make it worse. The ideal reform would protect the right when the left is in power while keeping the court's power in check.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1723 on: March 05, 2023, 05:55:46 PM »
Limiting the ability to unanimous decisions seems overboard and gives credibility to the detractors. In the US model of checks and balances the court protects against the tyranny the majority. These aspects of the reform make it worse. The ideal reform would protect the right when the left is in power while keeping the court's power in check.

This is a preliminary proposal, and IINM during committee discussions there were various concessions. The main problem is that the opposition isn't coming up with counter-proposals or suggestions, they are mostly trolling at the committee hearing.
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Moshe123

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1724 on: March 05, 2023, 05:57:03 PM »
Limiting the ability to unanimous decisions seems overboard and gives credibility to the detractors. In the US model of checks and balances the court protects against the tyranny the majority. These aspects of the reform make it worse. The ideal reform would protect the right when the left is in power while keeping the court's power in check.

It was already revised to 12/15.

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1725 on: March 05, 2023, 07:55:29 PM »


This is a preliminary proposal, and IINM during committee discussions there were various concessions. The main problem is that the opposition isn't coming up with counter-proposals or suggestions, they are mostly trolling at the committee hearing.



My presumption is that it was put in there to be stripped away in negotiations. This was a miscalculation since it gives credibility to the claims that the idea is to gut the courts rather than to create checks and balances. This credibility allows them to say they won't even negotiate.

I agree that this was a tactical error.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline mevinyavin

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1726 on: March 06, 2023, 04:27:39 AM »
This is sometimes a wacky place to live.
https://www.israelnationalnews.com/news/368319

Following last week's "Day of Disruptions" during which main traffic arteries were blocked by protesters demonstrating against the government's proposed judicial reforms, another day of protests is scheduled for this Thursday, this time at Ben Gurion Airport.

A WhatsApp message sent out by the organizers of the protest came into the hands of Israel National News, which learned that those participating in the demonstration at the airport are being offered a refund on their fuel costs in getting there and back, plus 250 shekels for taking part in the protest itself.

"Want to make a few shekels this Thursday?" the message reads. "Come and shut down Ben Gurion Airport, and you'll get 250 shekels plus gasoline.

"This Thursday, at nine a.m., we're all going to Ben Gurion Airport, with cars arriving from all over the country. We'll be using a simple tactic: Driving around slowly, between the entrance to the airport and Terminal 3, and then back again, over and over again. The more cars there are, the bigger the impact at the airport for more hours. The idea is to enjoy a slow drive around the airport. Bring music, podcasts," the message adds.

The organizers also stress that, "Anyone who doesn't coordinate with the organizers will not be paid," and that people should "send your full name and make of vehicle to the organizers, so that we can register you and ensure that you're paid."

Meanwhile, journalist Yaki Adamker has discovered that one of those in charge of inviting protesters to participate this week in return for payment is a former El Al captain, Ofer Lapidot, who also took part in a similar protest in 2020 attempting to prevent Netanyahu from flying to the United Arab Emirates. That attempt, which also used dedicated WhatsApp groups, failed.

After reports emerged revealing that protesters are to be paid for their participation in this week's protest, those organizing the event claimed that trolls were behind it all. Again writing on WhatsApp, they protested that, "By the way, this was all trolling. Needless to say anyone who comes does so on a voluntary basis and pays his own way."
Quote from: Alexsei
You can't fight intolerance with intolerance.


Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1728 on: March 06, 2023, 03:14:08 PM »
It was already revised to 12/15.


I agree that this was a tactical error.

Listen to what Rothman says about the preliminary proposals (they used versions that were previously put forth by current opposition members). Starts at 4:54.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline Ver hut gazugt

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1729 on: March 06, 2023, 03:21:39 PM »
Listen to what Rothman says about the preliminary proposals (they used versions that were previously put forth by current opposition members). Starts at 4:54.


hes no slouch

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1730 on: March 06, 2023, 03:25:37 PM »
Listen to what Rothman says about the preliminary proposals (they used versions that were previously put forth by current opposition members). Starts at 4:54.


Youtube is filtered, but they should have known that would make no difference.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1731 on: March 06, 2023, 03:37:42 PM »
Youtube is filtered, but they should have known that would make no difference.

There is no way to get it right with the opposition (for which the MKs are nothing but puppets controlled by big-money power brokers or threats of prosecution).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1732 on: March 06, 2023, 04:08:26 PM »
There is no way to get it right with the opposition (for which the MKs are nothing but puppets controlled by big-money power brokers or threats of prosecution).
Of course not. That is why taking their proposals would never make a difference. It may have made a difference with the public.
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1733 on: March 06, 2023, 04:22:46 PM »
Of course not. That is why taking their proposals would never make a difference. It may have made a difference with the public.

The other tactical mistake IMHO currently is the lack of English language international publicity of the deep problems and corruption in the current system, and how the reform attempts to fix things. That is how the opposition gets away and convinces high-caliber international figures to come out against it.

I watched the following video, and couldn't believe how anyone can give this any academic credence when it's one big echo chamber, with no opposing opinions to consider.

I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1734 on: March 08, 2023, 12:09:28 PM »
If only the opposition would come to the table with things like this rather than just spreading chaos and anarchy, I think broad consensus can be reached.

https://nettabarakcorren.org/media/


Hebrew version direct link.

English translation direct link.
« Last Edit: March 08, 2023, 12:13:20 PM by ExGingi »
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1735 on: March 15, 2023, 05:23:19 PM »
Herzog presents a fake "compromise". He should be impeached and the entire office should be eliminated. Maybe the current coalition should make that a priority (though it would look bad politically).

https://www.mitve-haam.org/_files/ugd/f35a26_8eb0f820ae1b4d32bd178cc2b7cf4352.pdf
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
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Offline Moshe123

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1736 on: March 15, 2023, 09:23:00 PM »
It's ridiculous. Was he playing a game the entire time? He didn't even throw a bone to the right.

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1737 on: March 15, 2023, 09:34:44 PM »
Herzog presents a fake "compromise". He should be impeached and the entire office should be eliminated. Maybe the current coalition should make that a priority (though it would look bad politically).

https://www.mitve-haam.org/_files/ugd/f35a26_8eb0f820ae1b4d32bd178cc2b7cf4352.pdf

One thing that stands out as nonsensical is to have 3 MKs on the committee but only one can be from the coalition and 2 from the opposition. How does that make any sense at all? Did he put any thought into it at all?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline ExGingi

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1738 on: March 15, 2023, 09:54:53 PM »
One thing that stands out as nonsensical is to have 3 MKs on the committee but only one can be from the coalition and 2 from the opposition. How does that make any sense at all? Did he put any thought into it at all?

It is being rejected outright by all of the right wing (coalition). If this managed to do anything, it was to unite the coalition to unanimously reject it. It looks like it was written by the ultra left-wing troublemakers at https://en.mqg.org.il/ or by the current head of the Supreme Court (or some other honchos).
I've been waiting over 5 years with bated breath for someone to say that!
-- Dan

Offline aygart

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Re: 2019-2022 Israeli Election (See Also: Definition Of Insanity)
« Reply #1739 on: March 15, 2023, 09:57:51 PM »
It is being rejected outright by all of the right wing (coalition). If this managed to do anything, it was to unite the coalition to unanimously reject it. It looks like it was written by the ultra left-wing troublemakers at https://en.mqg.org.il/ or by the current head of the Supreme Court (or some other honchos).
He managed to put together some form of minority rule over the majority to "save democracy"
Feelings don't care about your facts