Over The Top Purim Parties

[yzj]

Here is what is flawed with these letters and discussions that come up every so often:
There are always going to be people doing over the top things with their money. I think most of us want one thing; we want our kids growing up valuing what the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva do more than the decadent lifestyle of those living it up. The only way to do that is to stop hyperfocusing on the wealthy. I get nauseous when I hear people talking and every 3rd sentence has the word “gvir”. Even if it’s bashing them your kids will grow up knowing that you pay a lot more attention to “the gvirim” than to Rabbonim. Negative attention is also attention. You can be learning and even be mechaber seforim, but if your kids get the sense that you are not perfectly happy with your lifestyle and instead are focused on “the gevir” nothing you say to them will change that perception.  You are modeling for them with your behavior, and actions always speak louder than words.

If you want your kids growing up being machshiv torah and learning as a priority in life, talk about it constantly. Ignore the wealthy and their lifestyles. Your kids will learn to do the same. If you want to broaden their hasagos beyond learning talk about the neighbor who gives hours of his time to deliver for tomchei shabbos. The guy who volunteers to put away the seforim in shul.  The gemach down the block. The countless other baalei chessed that your kids can emulate without writing a six figure check. And you will be modeling for your kids what excites you. What you are machshiv. And most importantly, if you can show your kids that you are truly happy with the lifestyle you have you’re kids will want the same.

[aygart]

we want our kids growing up valuing what the Rabbonim and Roshei Yeshiva do

"calling out" the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva for not "banning" something does not lead to this.

[yzj]

"calling out" the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva for not "banning" something does not lead to this.

Correct

[Shkop]

I haven't seen anyone defend the party. Only the rabbonim who you are attacking for not having "banned" it. (I put that in quotes because anyone who uses the word banned in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what rabbonim do)

Your premise is that everything an individual does which is disapproved of should be met with a ban. That is the premise which apparently the rabbonim and roshei yeshiva disagree with you about.

I never attacked rabbonim for not banning any parties.
There was no premise from me that everything someone does that is disapproved should be met with a ban.
It's amazing how you make things up.

But you do state clearly that anyone who uses the word "banned" in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what they do. Now you are speaking in very general terms. You seem to be saying that rabbonim can answer shaylos. They can help someone's shalom bayis. They can give a hechsher to a restaurant. But they can not get together and prohibit something (Definition of Ban is to officially or legally prohibit). Actually they can.

I think you have an intrinsic misunderstandig of what rabbonim are entitled to do. 

[Shkop]

@Shkop Also, why does this issue only reflect poorly on the Roshei Yeshiva and the people making the party? How about the parents that are letting their kids go collecting unsupervised and obviously haven't taught them about drinking in moderation? Moreover, even if Roshei yeshivos/Rabbanim "banned" parties, would that really stop people?

I did not state that I agree with every single argument that letter makes (I actually do not).
What I did was agree strongly to the facts presented (obviously assuming those facts to be accurate).

For example, this is a presentation of fact on the part of the writer:
At a different Shul party, Hatzolah had to be there so many times it is not possible to count. One kid after the next was carried out, as children of all ages managed to get toasted on all types of hard liquor

Now to another point. Is the writer correct in his assertion that The Roshei Yeshiva and Rabbonim should ban every one of these parties.
I never discussed that.

But now that I mention it, I am not convinced that such bans will be effective in such cases.

[aygart]

But you do state clearly that anyone who uses the word "banned" in relation to rabbonim has an intrinsic misunderstanding of what they do. Now you are speaking in very general terms. You seem to be saying that rabbonim can answer shaylos. They can help someone's shalom bayis. They can give a hechsher to a restaurant. But they can not get together and prohibit something (Definition of Ban is to officially or legally prohibit). Actually they can.

I think you have an intrinsic misunderstandig of what rabbonim are entitled to do. 

LOL. Let's just say that the odds are very high that I have a much more intimate understanding than you of what rabbonim do and how they deliberate things.

[aygart]

I never attacked rabbonim for not banning any parties.
There was no premise from me that everything someone does that is disapproved should be met with a ban.
It's amazing how you make things up.

What other aspect of the letter did anyone dispute? I have yet to see a single post saying that the party was a good thing.

[joey89]

Only because people don't realize that they can go buy one today for $30K. Within a year or 2 at the most, everyone and their mother will have one.

If they can ever figure out the production side

[Shkop]

I have yet to see a single post saying that the party was a good thing.

I have yet to see that too. But I did see a lot of arguments that it is none of anyone's business if someone throws a 100k Purim party bash. Actually, it is everyone's business to get the word out that such parties that result in Hatzaloh having to be called in numerous times to haul out stone drunk kids and improper mingling of the sexes is wrong. I am not sure why this is such a difficult point to accept.

[Shkop]

LOL. Let's just say that the odds are very high that I have a much more intimate understanding than you of what rabbonim do and how they deliberate things.

That may well be the case. It does not, however, mean you are correct in your assertion that rabbonim have no right to prohibit things.

[good sam]

What other aspect of the letter did anyone dispute? I have yet to see a single post saying that the party was a good thing.

Oh I'll go on record with that. The parties are a good thing.

[Yitzshpitz]

I did not state that I agree with every single argument that letter makes (I actually do not).
What I did was agree strongly to the facts presented (obviously assuming those facts to be accurate).

The facts do seem a bit exaggerated but I digress. The fact that kids/teenagers are drinking too much on Purim and getting into trouble is not a new problem as its been happening for as long as I can remember. There are no facts to actually prove that the issue is more rampant now than before.

Alcohol is very accessible especially in the Frum world.  Its more of a societal issue than anything else. Blaming certain sects or individuals for a much bigger issue is not really fair.

[Yitzshpitz]

LOL. Let's just say that the odds are very high that I have a much more intimate understanding than you of what rabbonim do and how they deliberate things.

What are the odds? lol

[gingyguy]

What are the odds? lol

paging @ChaimMoskowitz ..

[Shkop]

The facts do seem a bit exaggerated but I digress. The fact that kids/teenagers are drinking too much on Purim and getting into trouble is not a new problem as its been happening for as long as I can remember. There are no facts to actually prove that the issue is more rampant now than before.

Alcohol is very accessible especially in the Frum world.  Its more of a societal issue than anything else. Blaming certain sects or individuals for a much bigger issue is not really fair.

Fair general point but I disagree with your last assertion. The blame in the letter wasn't about the general issue of societal drinking. The blame was directed at individuals who create parties that result in such things.

In fact, the blame is even more appropriate in light of your valid point that such issues very much exist. Since we know that kids can seriously abuse alcohol (and mingle inappropriately) then we can blame people who use their money in ways that bring that about.

[Yitzshpitz]

Fair general point but I disagree with your last assertion. The blame in the letter wasn't about the general issue of societal drinking. The blame was directed at individuals who create parties that result in such things.

In fact, the blame is even more appropriate in light of your valid point that such issues very much exist. Since we know that kids can seriously abuse alcohol (and mingle inappropriately) then we can blame people who use their money in ways that bring that about.

But its not about the parties per se. Everyone drinks on Purim and some parties just create a more fun and exciting setting for people to drink. Unless the general attitude towards alcohol changes, most the issues described in the article will not change. For example: Purim in Israel

Also, the idea of banning parties because there are parties that get out of control is ridiculous. Many people have very enjoyable parties/seudas with their friends and family that is fun and does not result in "countless" people in the hospital.

[yzj]

What are the odds? lol

Aygart has shimush from some of those Rabbonim whom shkop wants to enact a ban and has seen a thing or two about how they do or don’t operate....

There are sugyos that actually deal with the Rabbonim banning certain practices and when the Rabbonim will not push a ban despite their dissaproval. There is a vast body of teshuvos that relate to this subject. And there is the fifth shulchan aruch that can only be acquired through substantial shimush chachamim. To suggest that the Rabbanim can simply ban anything that doesn’t meet their approval and be effective is to have a fundamental misunderstanding of the dynamic of how the Rabbanim operate...

[Shkop]

But its not about the parties per se. Everyone drinks on Purim and some parties just create a more fun and exciting setting for people to drink. Unless the general attitude towards alcohol changes, most the issues described in the article will not change. For example: Purim in Israel

Also, the idea of banning parties because there are parties that get out of control is ridiculous. Many people have very enjoyable parties/seudas with their friends and family that is fun and does not result in "countless" people in the hospital.

I'm not sure how much banning will accomplish, but the fact that many people have enjoyable seudas with friends and family which does not result in people being rushed to the hospital has nothing to do with anything. We are talking about specific cases as highlighted in that letter, not general situations.

[aygart]

I'm not sure how much banning will accomplish, but the fact that many people have enjoyable seudas with friends and family which does not result in people being rushed to the hospital has nothing to do with anything. We are talking about specific cases as highlighted in that letter, not general situations.

Which brings us to these 2 questions which you very conveniently erased when replying to this post.

A couple of questions for you.

1. were the amount of people needing the care of Hatzolah more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)
2. Was the amount of boys and girls mingling more, less, or similar to previous years (adjusted for growth)

[Yitzshpitz]

I'm not sure how much banning will accomplish, but the fact that many people have enjoyable seudas with friends and family which does not result in people being rushed to the hospital has nothing to do with anything. We are talking about specific cases as highlighted in that letter, not general situations.

Incorrect. You dont make gezairos and bans based on specific instances as you are suggesting there should be. Those parties should be addressed individually by a local Rabbi or leader of community. If other parties are not experiencing these issues that is certainly relevant.