Author Topic: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha  (Read 7368 times)

Offline Suave

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2020, 10:39:20 AM »
That sounds like real slippery slope, spiritually.

I concur, it may lead you towards a spirtual journey that may lead you astray from your current journey.

It may also be wide open door for more/different substance abuse/dependency in the future, especially as you have not experienced them yet, and this desire that you have to "just try" DMT can just as easily shift to something else C"V.
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Dr. James Fadiman discusses this in his book 'The Explorers Guide to Psychedelics, and Dr. Richard Luis Miller covers this in his book; Psychedelic Medicine.

I wrote a thread that is slightly on topic here: https://okclarity.com/forums/topic/are-doctors-responsible-for-substance-abuse-addiction/
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Offline Zalc

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2020, 10:44:07 AM »
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Didn't know that.
Really interesting!

I made an uneducated observation.

Regardless, even if it isn't a "gateway drug"... It can be a spiritual gateway to places that are very detrimental, when if only in subtle ways.

Offline aygart

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2020, 10:48:40 AM »
I concur, it may lead you towards a spirtual journey that may lead you astray from your current journey.
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Dr. James Fadiman discusses this in his book 'The Explorers Guide to Psychedelics, and Dr. Richard Luis Miller covers this in his book; Psychedelic Medicine.

I wrote a thread that is slightly on topic here: https://okclarity.com/forums/topic/are-doctors-responsible-for-substance-abuse-addiction/

What about when it is not in a therapeudic setting?
Feelings don't care about your facts

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2020, 01:03:52 PM »
Something about going through life the way it is, even the best parts of it, even an elated feeling of an intense Torah study session, or a real prayer done with full devotion, to me is still all considered mundane in comparison.
What should I do, It's just some sort of yearning feeling for something Devine and truly spiritual, not so easy to put into words I guess...
But no worries I'm not straying and going outside the religion I am totally grounded in my Judaism.
Maybe it's just me, but saying that Torah and tefilah, even at their highest levels of intensity, could be considered 'mundane' in comparison to literally anything else doesn't sound very grounded in Judaism. For something to be divine and truly spiritual I would think means that it makes you close to Hashem. The Torah tells us how to get close to Hashem - Torah, tefilah, chessed, etc.

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2020, 02:38:10 PM »
Maybe it's just me, but saying that Torah and tefilah, even at their highest levels of intensity, could be considered 'mundane' in comparison to literally anything else doesn't sound very grounded in Judaism. For something to be divine and truly spiritual I would think means that it makes you close to Hashem. The Torah tells us how to get close to Hashem - Torah, tefilah, chessed, etc.
Good point, "Mundane" was clearly a poor choice of words, let me clarify!
I can assure you, I dont have any lack of chashivus whatsoever towards torah and tfillah, what I meant was, that regardless of your level of kavanah, at the end of the day, it`s not a spiritually transcending experience, in the sense, that any person from any religion can believe in something and pray to it intensely, would you say that a Muslim studying the Quran diligently, and after a long 3 our sader britzifus, feels good about what he just did, and perhaps was mechadesh a chidush and feels all enlightened, would you categorize that as a spiritual feeling he had as well?
It`s very hard to categorize a feeling of dveikus in davening as an actual spiritual feeling instead of a psychological one, that since we believe in hashem and yiddishkeit, and that our ultimate tachlis and goal is to advance in torah and tfilah, hence, when we actually do that and have a good sader or good tfillah naturally you have this feeling of true happiness since that is ultimately your ideal goal.
What i`m referring to is an experience that transcends reality, either through Meditation or DMT, or someone who has a near death experience etc, these are experiences that are`nt ruled by the law of physics and are`nt psychological or emotional feelings, scientifically there really is no explanation to these things, that is an experience that to me is fascinating and would love to know what it is like...BUT im speaking of a 1 time experience, whether it is by partaking in a controlled clinical test trial or while travelling ina foreign country etc, but let`s leave the getting involved in drugs and addiction stuff out of this, ofcourse if one feels their was that concern, then that`s a whole other conversation.
I`m merely questioning whether doing or wanting to have such an experience, is in any way a contradiction with our hashkafah (mainstream in the box maybe not) or perhaps not?

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2020, 03:07:19 PM »
I concur, it may lead you towards a spirtual journey that may lead you astray from your current journey.
I strongly disagree. Psychedelics (used in therapeutic settings) have been proven to be the most effective cessation method for narcotics and other addictions.

Dr. James Fadiman discusses this in his book 'The Explorers Guide to Psychedelics, and Dr. Richard Luis Miller covers this in his book; Psychedelic Medicine.

I wrote a thread that is slightly on topic here: https://okclarity.com/forums/topic/are-doctors-responsible-for-substance-abuse-addiction/

Isn`t that a similar argument as saying one should not learn philosophical seforim like Chovos Halvavos Shaar Yichud Hamaaseh, or Moreh Nevuchim, etc since we dont know where his journey or conclusions will end?
In which usually the answer is, that if you`re grounded in your hashkafahs and are coming with an open yet closed-minded view that you aren't making conclusions based off your understanding itself, and that just because you dont understand a given answer that does not give you the right to make your own conclusions etc, which is why it is accepted to learn philosophy seforim, I would think that argument would apply to this situation as well, dont you think?

Offline skyguy918

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2020, 04:06:04 PM »
Good point, "Mundane" was clearly a poor choice of words, let me clarify!
I can assure you, I dont have any lack of chashivus whatsoever towards torah and tfillah, what I meant was, that regardless of your level of kavanah, at the end of the day, it`s not a spiritually transcending experience, in the sense, that any person from any religion can believe in something and pray to it intensely, would you say that a Muslim studying the Quran diligently, and after a long 3 our sader britzifus, feels good about what he just did, and perhaps was mechadesh a chidush and feels all enlightened, would you categorize that as a spiritual feeling he had as well?
It`s very hard to categorize a feeling of dveikus in davening as an actual spiritual feeling instead of a psychological one, that since we believe in hashem and yiddishkeit, and that our ultimate tachlis and goal is to advance in torah and tfilah, hence, when we actually do that and have a good sader or good tfillah naturally you have this feeling of true happiness since that is ultimately your ideal goal.
What i`m referring to is an experience that transcends reality, either through Meditation or DMT, or someone who has a near death experience etc, these are experiences that are`nt ruled by the law of physics and are`nt psychological or emotional feelings, scientifically there really is no explanation to these things, that is an experience that to me is fascinating and would love to know what it is like...BUT im speaking of a 1 time experience, whether it is by partaking in a controlled clinical test trial or while travelling ina foreign country etc, but let`s leave the getting involved in drugs and addiction stuff out of this, ofcourse if one feels their was that concern, then that`s a whole other conversation.
I`m merely questioning whether doing or wanting to have such an experience, is in any way a contradiction with our hashkafah (mainstream in the box maybe not) or perhaps not?
I don't want to get bogged down in the labels - spiritual, psychological, transcendent, etc. Whether or not pursuing the experience DMT or whatever provides is a contradiction to Torah hashkafa, I don't know for sure. But I would say that viewing the experience of true avodas Hashem as somehow lacking something (something worth pursuing),that another experience (like DMT) provides seems like a contradiction to Torah hashkafa.

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2020, 04:34:52 PM »
I don't want to get bogged down in the labels - spiritual, psychological, transcendent, etc. Whether or not pursuing the experience DMT or whatever provides is a contradiction to Torah hashkafa, I don't know for sure. But I would say that viewing the experience of true avodas Hashem as somehow lacking something (something worth pursuing),that another experience (like DMT) provides seems like a contradiction to Torah hashkafa.

You`re missing the point, I was not suggesting one over the other, absolutely Avodas hashem is important and is not getting dropped, just saying that having a DMT experience one time can give someone something that otherwise cannot be attained through tfillah, never suggested one being a substitute for the other.

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2020, 04:43:05 PM »
I don't want to get bogged down in the labels - spiritual, psychological, transcendent, etc. Whether or not pursuing the experience DMT or whatever provides is a contradiction to Torah hashkafa, I don't know for sure. But I would say that viewing the experience of true avodas Hashem as somehow lacking something (something worth pursuing),that another experience (like DMT) provides seems like a contradiction to Torah hashkafa.
But the real truth is that you are right though, in reality, there is no spiritual level that exists somewhere else that cant be attained through  tfillah or avodas hashem.
So if you read Rabbi  Aryeh kaplan you will see that all the tzadikim of previous generations, and even the big chasidishe rabbis of the last generation DID INDEED engage themselves in very advanced forms of meditation where one can obviously attain these ecstatic states of consciousness as well.
The RAM"A Mipano one of the most famous kabbalist actually passed away from a deep meditation when his shames forgot to wake him up from his trance.
These things may seem very foreign, but it is a FACT that this was very much a central facet in yiddishkeit as any reader of R` Kaplans books would come to agree with very quickly.

Offline Suave

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #54 on: January 08, 2020, 05:00:37 PM »
Good point, "Mundane" was clearly a poor choice of words, let me clarify!
I can assure you, I dont have any lack of chashivus whatsoever towards torah and tfillah, what I meant was, that regardless of your level of kavanah, at the end of the day, it`s not a spiritually transcending experience, in the sense, that any person from any religion can believe in something and pray to it intensely, would you say that a Muslim studying the Quran diligently, and after a long 3 our sader britzifus, feels good about what he just did, and perhaps was mechadesh a chidush and feels all enlightened, would you categorize that as a spiritual feeling he had as well?
It`s very hard to categorize a feeling of dveikus in davening as an actual spiritual feeling instead of a psychological one, that since we believe in hashem and yiddishkeit, and that our ultimate tachlis and goal is to advance in torah and tfilah, hence, when we actually do that and have a good sader or good tfillah naturally you have this feeling of true happiness since that is ultimately your ideal goal.
What i`m referring to is an experience that transcends reality, either through Meditation or DMT, or someone who has a near death experience etc, these are experiences that are`nt ruled by the law of physics and are`nt psychological or emotional feelings, scientifically there really is no explanation to these things, that is an experience that to me is fascinating and would love to know what it is like...BUT im speaking of a 1 time experience, whether it is by partaking in a controlled clinical test trial or while travelling ina foreign country etc, but let`s leave the getting involved in drugs and addiction stuff out of this, ofcourse if one feels their was that concern, then that`s a whole other conversation.
I`m merely questioning whether doing or wanting to have such an experience, is in any way a contradiction with our hashkafah (mainstream in the box maybe not) or perhaps not?

You win. Go do DMT. דרך הצלחה

אם אסק שמים שם אתה ואציעה שאול הנך
(מ"ג תהלים קלט ח)

My translation: If I ascend to the heavens (via avodah) there you are, and if I descend to below the ground, you'll show me that I have been here all along. why did you dig so deep to find what was always with you. All you had to do was look up and see.

Further Reading:

Likutei Moharan, Part II 82:3:4
King David said: “If I ascend to heaven—You are there!” (Psalms 139:8). Even in heaven, God is there. With each and every ascent he must find God there. Yet we find that Elisha-Acher ascended on high through a Divine Name, and even so denied the essence of God (Chagigah 14b- 16a).
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Offline Suave

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #55 on: January 08, 2020, 05:09:04 PM »
What about when it is not in a therapeudic setting?
It all depends on the set & setting. Like the Rambam says, "everything is good in it's right measure"
I have met MANY balei tshuva who credit psychedelics for their 'moment of return' - Yet on the other hand, I have spent many years volunteering with at risk teens & addicts and have seen & felt the consequences of substance abuse. I have buried friends who died due to misguided discovery attempts, and have seen friends reborn through therapeutic psychedelic journeys.
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Offline Zalc

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2020, 11:19:11 AM »
You win. Go do DMT. דרך הצלחה

@Philosophypsychologypsych

And if you do, since this is DDF, please post a TR!

It will be interesting to see how your description of it will evolve after the experience, considering how much was written until now.

Offline Philosophypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2020, 04:01:36 PM »
@Philosophypsychologypsych

And if you do, since this is DDF, please post a TR!

It will be interesting to see how your description of it will evolve after the experience, considering how much was written until now.

If and when I do, I give you my word I`ll share my "Trip" report.
It wouldnt be in the USA I wouldnt do it illegally and not looking to join the Ayahuasca approved temples in the US lol, so would have to be when I traveled to one of the many countries that it is legal and have DMT clinics..

Online Randomex

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2020, 04:34:55 PM »
Are you familiar with what the Chazon Ish famously wrote about learning for long periods without interruption? : )
... Such outward things dwell not in my desires. But if it be a sin to covet honour, I am the most offending soul alive.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2020, 04:43:11 PM »
But the real truth is that you are right though, in reality, there is no spiritual level that exists somewhere else that cant be attained through  tfillah or avodas hashem.
So if you read Rabbi  Aryeh kaplan you will see that all the tzadikim of previous generations, and even the big chasidishe rabbis of the last generation DID INDEED engage themselves in very advanced forms of meditation where one can obviously attain these ecstatic states of consciousness as well.
The RAM"A Mipano one of the most famous kabbalist actually passed away from a deep meditation when his shames forgot to wake him up from his trance.
These things may seem very foreign, but it is a FACT that this was very much a central facet in yiddishkeit as any reader of R` Kaplans books would come to agree with very quickly.

as sure as I am that (these) tzadikim did reach הפשטת הגשמיות and transcended the limited perspective of גוף and גשמיות,
I am that much more certain that it was achieved solely by the power of focus and דביקות,

and that any 'sensation' that is achieved without that, by mere physical stimulants is not part of עבודת השם, nor an actual escape from anything phsyical.
it is another 'trip' or 'high' within the framework of גוף ונפש הבהמית albeit one that -in specific proper circumstances- can be conducive to inspiration.
if that is an experience that you're seeking
Go do DMT. דרך הצלחה
but let's not make this into a מראה הנבואה...