Author Topic: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha  (Read 5492 times)

Offline Philosophypsychologypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #60 on: January 10, 2020, 11:29:00 AM »
as sure as I am that (these) tzadikim did reach הפשטת הגשמיות and transcended the limited perspective of גוף and גשמיות,
I am that much more certain that it was achieved solely by the power of focus and דביקות,

and that any 'sensation' that is achieved without that, by mere physical stimulants is not part of עבודת השם, nor an actual escape from anything phsyical.
it is another 'trip' or 'high' within the framework of גוף ונפש הבהמית albeit one that -in specific proper circumstances- can be conducive to inspiration.
if that is an experience that you're seekingbut let's not make this into a מראה הנבואה...

Very, very, well said.
But believe it or not I agree with all this, and that is precisely my point, that hafshatas hagashmiyus through the real way, is pretty much out of my league, previous generations were able to reach those heights and obviously that is the real thing. But experiencing the feeling of Hafshatas Hagashmius is something I envy to at least once, be able to feel, so yes absolutely you`re right this is totally within the framework of guf and nefesh habhamius, I know very well that I wont have achieved any lofty madreiga, but is that a reason not to at least get the inspiration of the sensation of Hafshatas hagashmius, it may be non deserved and forcefully obtained, is that a bad thing though? (so yes, I`ll have the "Nahama D`kisufa that comes along with it.)

And when you say "the power of focus and dveikus" that is exactly what I said , through "Advanced meditation" it`s the same thing, meditation is just blocking out all stimuli  and directing your focus on your thought. It`s Hisbonenus with the addition of hisbodedus of the other thoughts, thats all. So yes, previous Tzadikim were able to reach those levels during Tfillah, at will, unfortuantely I personally cant get anywhere near that, .
(The Chasam Sofer was known to touch the walls while he davened Shmona esrei, he said that sometimes he feels like he is ascending to much and has to touch the walls to bring himself back to reality..)

Offline TonyTomson

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #61 on: January 10, 2020, 12:36:42 PM »
Hi

SWIM has used ayahuasca and discussed with a number of rabbanim, some of who's names you will be familiar with.

If you would like to speak, send me an email youme2526@gmail.com

It has significant potential for positive results but unfortunately can have some negatives too.
I personally have had some very positive experiences with dmt, as well as with mushrooms. 
mushrooms played a big part in bringing me back to a religious life, B"H

For an extremely comprehensive understanding see https://www.dmt-nexus.me/forum/default.aspx?g=forum

If you want to achieve a transcendental state without the use of chemicals, check out holotropic breathing (grof breathing) you may want to ask a shayla about this too.

Possible problematic that I heard are: koisaim kesamim.  ov/yidoini,  darchei emori, among other very serious laavin (some chayvei misa skila) however depending on its use and purpose.  Look at the Rambam sefer hamitzvos for each of these.
Keep in mind that some of these would apply to cannabis as well, if they apply to dmt.

If you are going to experience this in a clinical setting than this warning would not be so important, but:  If you are using smokable or injectable dmt you should be ok, as long as it is extracted and prepared properly and has very minimal impurities.
If you are going to be using oral dmt (ayahuasca, yage) bear in mind that caapi is a reversible Monoamino oxide inhibitor (MAOI) and certainly pharmausca (which uses a pharmaceutical maoi rather than caapi and is not considered reversible)  which can have very severe interactions with many psychiatric drugs (and some non-psychiatric ones too, some cardiac drugs) interaction can lead to a possibly fatal hypertensive crisis, which is hard enough but think about going through it while tripping and you anyways feel like you are dying.  Your soul floating out of your body, and having your insides turning inside out as you vomit like you never did before from deep in your bowels.  your mind gets ripped open and all the experiences you have ever had, as well as everything that has happened since briyas haolam is poured into your mind while seeing all sorts of colors and shapes.  It can get pretty intense!!

I would be very happy to discuss further


Offline gozalim

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2020, 03:02:53 PM »
Nahama dekisufa is generous.
I find it hard to believe that an indulgence that is squarely within גוף ונפש הבהמית Would in any way be able to escape them.

More like a 'VR' experience that is fun and may or may not stimulate one aspect (the 'excitement' aspect) of הפשטת הגשמיות

Enjoy!

Offline Rick Strassman

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2020, 05:05:08 PM »
Hello,

This is my first post to your great forum. I would like to weigh in regarding the discussion of DMT (and other psychedelics) and Judaism

My name is Rick Strassman, and I live in New Mexico. I'm a psychiatrist, having got my M.D. at Albert Einstein in the Bronx, and psychiatric training in California and New Mexico.

While at the University of New Mexico, I ran the first new human studies with psychedelic drugs in a generation, from 1990 to 1995. We focused on DMT. This was because DMT is made in human body and I thought it might be involved with naturally occurring nondrug, altered states of consciousness--including ones considered spiritual, religious, or mystical. I believed the pineal gland might be involved, and sketched out a relevant scenario. My first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule came out in 2001 and describes that research.

I was raised Conservative, but took a long detour through Zen Buddhism, over 20 years, and that was the spiritual perspective I brought to bear in my studies. It turned out to not be an especially useful spiritual model, though.

I began studying Tanakh searching for a better understanding of my findings, and found that the DMT effect and the prophetic experience shared phenomenological features. What Rambam would perhaps describe as shared imaginative contents. However, the information or knowledge that people in my study received and communicated was not of a religious character.

I wrote a book about my analysis of the DMT state through the lens of Torah: DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. In it, I suggest that the imaginative contents of prophecy may be biologically mediated by elevated endogenous DMT, but the resemblance between prophetic experience is only superficial, not substantive.

On the other hand, carefully supervised sessions combining Torah study, etc. with a psychedelic drug--in order to increase one's imaginative strength--may turn out to have some benefit.

Offline Rick Strassman

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2020, 05:14:46 PM »
it's important to take DMT orany other psychedelic in the safest most supportive possible environment. They open you up to all kinds of influences, some good, some bad. You would want to be supervised by someone you know and trust, someone who won't consciously or unconsciously be working against your own beliefs and aspirations. This can happen within a medical therapeutic setting, as well as in a more overtly religious context, such as the shamanic or syncretic Latin American settings.

Offline Philosophypsychologypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #65 on: January 13, 2020, 01:13:16 AM »
Hello,

This is my first post to your great forum. I would like to weigh in regarding the discussion of DMT (and other psychedelics) and Judaism

My name is Rick Strassman, and I live in New Mexico. I'm a psychiatrist, having got my M.D. at Albert Einstein in the Bronx, and psychiatric training in California and New Mexico.

While at the University of New Mexico, I ran the first new human studies with psychedelic drugs in a generation, from 1990 to 1995. We focused on DMT. This was because DMT is made in human body and I thought it might be involved with naturally occurring nondrug, altered states of consciousness--including ones considered spiritual, religious, or mystical. I believed the pineal gland might be involved, and sketched out a relevant scenario. My first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule came out in 2001 and describes that research.

I was raised Conservative, but took a long detour through Zen Buddhism, over 20 years, and that was the spiritual perspective I brought to bear in my studies. It turned out to not be an especially useful spiritual model, though.

I began studying Tanakh searching for a better understanding of my findings, and found that the DMT effect and the prophetic experience shared phenomenological features. What Rambam would perhaps describe as shared imaginative contents. However, the information or knowledge that people in my study received and communicated was not of a religious character.

I wrote a book about my analysis of the DMT state through the lens of Torah: DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. In it, I suggest that the imaginative contents of prophecy may be biologically mediated by elevated endogenous DMT, but the resemblance between prophetic experience is only superficial, not substantive.

On the other hand, carefully supervised sessions combining Torah study, etc. with a psychedelic drug--in order to increase one's imaginative strength--may turn out to have some benefit.

Hey Rick!
I have not read your book but I watched the documentary, loved it!!
I actually had some theories about the connection of the Pineal gland and DMT, and was nice to see it was mentioned in the documentary!
Great job, btw not that you implied this at all but just want to reiterate that Aryeh Kaplan writes clearly "While some writers have tried to demonstrate, that the prophets engaged in drug experiences, there is no objective evidence, either from the biblical text or from the classical literature, that such substances were involved"...
I look forward to reading your book "DMT and the soul of Prophecy"
Take care!

Offline Suave

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #66 on: January 13, 2020, 07:26:41 AM »
Hello,

This is my first post to your great forum. I would like to weigh in regarding the discussion of DMT (and other psychedelics) and Judaism

My name is Rick Strassman, and I live in New Mexico. I'm a psychiatrist, having got my M.D. at Albert Einstein in the Bronx, and psychiatric training in California and New Mexico.

While at the University of New Mexico, I ran the first new human studies with psychedelic drugs in a generation, from 1990 to 1995. We focused on DMT. This was because DMT is made in human body and I thought it might be involved with naturally occurring nondrug, altered states of consciousness--including ones considered spiritual, religious, or mystical. I believed the pineal gland might be involved, and sketched out a relevant scenario. My first book, DMT: The Spirit Molecule came out in 2001 and describes that research.

I was raised Conservative, but took a long detour through Zen Buddhism, over 20 years, and that was the spiritual perspective I brought to bear in my studies. It turned out to not be an especially useful spiritual model, though.

I began studying Tanakh searching for a better understanding of my findings, and found that the DMT effect and the prophetic experience shared phenomenological features. What Rambam would perhaps describe as shared imaginative contents. However, the information or knowledge that people in my study received and communicated was not of a religious character.

I wrote a book about my analysis of the DMT state through the lens of Torah: DMT and the Soul of Prophecy. In it, I suggest that the imaginative contents of prophecy may be biologically mediated by elevated endogenous DMT, but the resemblance between prophetic experience is only superficial, not substantive.

On the other hand, carefully supervised sessions combining Torah study, etc. with a psychedelic drug--in order to increase one's imaginative strength--may turn out to have some benefit.
Holy Heavens! We have the real Dr. Strassman in the forums with us??? I am simply star struck!
There is so much I want to learn from you, I wish I could spend a shabbat with you somehow.
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Offline Rick Strassman

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #67 on: January 15, 2020, 10:45:58 AM »
I'm always looking for a good Shabbat. Where do you live?

Offline Suave

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #68 on: January 15, 2020, 05:57:58 PM »
I'm always looking for a good Shabbat. Where do you live?
I'm still figuring that out, I guess I am a nomad. At the moment I am living in Odessa, Ukraine.

If we are going to do this, let's do it right!

Who else is joining? (I bet you know most of them personally)

  • Richard Miller
  • Ann Shulgin (wish Alex was still alive)
  • James Fadiman
  • Rick Doblin
  • Tim Scully (I bet he still has some vintage papers to share)
  • Ayelet Waldman
  • Andrew B. Newberg (only because his research may be relevant to this thread)
  • Don Lattin
  • Julie Holland
  • Joe Rogan (as the moderator)
  • Luis Luna
  • Jeremy Narby
  • Stephen Szra (is he still alive?)
  • David Nichols
  • Benny Shanon
  • Stanislav Grof
  • Dennis McKenna
  • Ethan Nadelmann (I think I was invited to his house for shabbat in the past)
  • Jay Stevens
  • Paul Stamets (he will be in charge of the salads)
  • Charles Tart (for the controversy)
  • Daniel Pinchbeck
  • Alex Gibbons
« Last Edit: January 15, 2020, 06:40:01 PM by Suave »
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Offline Philosophypsychologypsych

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #69 on: January 16, 2020, 02:54:28 AM »
it's important to take DMT orany other psychedelic in the safest most supportive possible environment. They open you up to all kinds of influences, some good, some bad. You would want to be supervised by someone you know and trust, someone who won't consciously or unconsciously be working against your own beliefs and aspirations. This can happen within a medical therapeutic setting, as well as in a more overtly religious context, such as the shamanic or syncretic Latin American settings.
I'm not sure I understand, are you saying that the clinician/Shamans beliefs can influence your experience/visions you have while on DMT, how can that be? You are not concious while under the effects of it so how would another individual have the ability of interfering in any way?

Offline AsherO

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #70 on: January 16, 2020, 07:34:59 AM »
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?

2. While there might very well be therapeutic affects to psychedelics, that is only applicable to treat certain conditions. There are numerous examples of medical treatments that could kill a healthy person (RL) but are used to treat terminal illnesses. A distant correlary of this would be (lehavdil) Mei Chatas used to purify someone who is Tmei Meis, it purifies the impure and makes Tamei the pure. What Im saying is that while LSD might help someone whos addicted to Opiates, that doesnt mean it has any therapeutic benefit to a healthy person and might very well be detrimental.

3. OP has a username that seems to have been created specifically for this thread, in an agenda driven way. Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.
PGF24BMGS

Offline thaber

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #71 on: January 16, 2020, 09:18:55 AM »
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?

2. While there might very well be therapeutic affects to psychedelics, that is only applicable to treat certain conditions. There are numerous examples of medical treatments that could kill a healthy person (RL) but are used to treat terminal illnesses. A distant correlary of this would be (lehavdil) Mei Chatas used to purify someone who is Tmei Meis, it purifies the impure and makes Tamei the pure. What Im saying is that while LSD might help someone whos addicted to Opiates, that doesnt mean it has any therapeutic benefit to a healthy person and might very well be detrimental.

3. OP has a username that seems to have been created specifically for this thread, in an agenda driven way. Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.
So this is what it takes to revive you?

Offline JuryDuty

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #72 on: January 16, 2020, 09:45:52 AM »
1. Why do I get the feeling that OP had a Taavah and is trying to use Avodas Hashem as an excuse to justify it?


Because that's what we're trained to think about any divergence from standard orthodox views

Two additional posts in this thread, are from other first time posters who are supposedly subject matter experts on the topic writing in support of the OP. Highly suspicious in my eyes.

That's quite an accusation, can anyone prove that they're real? It would be a letdown to discover that an expert on the forum is actually not who he says he is.
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Online aygart

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #73 on: January 16, 2020, 10:10:57 AM »
Because that's what we're trained to think about any divergence from standard orthodox views



Speak for yourself
You have the right to remain silent. Anything you say can and will be used to start a religious discussion.

Offline gozalim

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Re: Dimeththyltryptamine (DMT) & Halacha
« Reply #74 on: January 16, 2020, 10:39:56 AM »
Because that's what we're trained to think about any divergence from standard orthodox views
I think I made an objective argument upthread why it's illogical that these substances can provide any actual spirituality